Full Transcript for Building A Photography Business With PPA Tools, with Angela Kurkian

honestly, I think that's the core of success at any level, right? 00:04:36.159 --> 00:04:37.439 None of us get here alone. 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:49.839 It is one of the challenges that people are passionate about anything, like any business they get into, whether it's photography, bakery, hair salons or whatever, right? 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:59.759 They get into it for the passion of the business, and then they discover or the passion for the craft, if you will, and then they discover the business side is really what keeps them afloat. 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:03.439 How long did that take for you to realize that? 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:21.599 Oh my gosh, I've got to go to the chamber of commerce meeting, I've got to go to the wedding expo, I've got to get referrals, I gotta invoice properly, I gotta watch my costs, I gotta buy insurance, I gotta do all these things that I didn't sign up for because I just want to take pay chairs. 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:28.479 Yeah, that I would say I'm a little bit different in that, only because I actually ended up working with a very large studio immediately. 00:05:28.479 --> 00:05:32.319 And so at that studio, we had 15 photographers on staff. 00:05:32.319 --> 00:05:35.119 We photographed this is back in the days, y'all. 00:05:35.119 --> 00:05:38.319 I'm gonna admit to this, we photographed bunny portraits at Easter. 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:44.159 So we were doing 350 bunny portraits at Easter, high volume studio is my point. 00:05:44.159 --> 00:05:50.319 Yeah, and so when I jumped into this, I jumped into a very busy business and I learned the business side. 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:51.759 That was the very first thing I learned. 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:54.959 And so I did that for a couple of years, and that that was a lot. 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:59.519 And then I ended up opening my own business in 1999. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.839 And as a sole proprietor, you're right, Gary. 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.079 We wear so many hats, right? 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.239 There's so much to know and there's so much to learn. 00:06:06.239 --> 00:06:13.439 And that's probably again why I'm so passionate about teaching business, because I can also say I have probably made every mistake there is to make. 00:06:14.239 --> 00:06:15.679 So yeah, exactly. 00:06:15.679 --> 00:06:21.919 And that's that's a painful, but it is one of the ways humans learn is getting burnt your hand on the stove a couple of times. 00:06:22.239 --> 00:06:26.879 Yes, over and over again, especially as a creative, because I think I think our hearts are always forward. 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.839 And so we have to we have to also put on our business hats. 00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:37.439 And when I teach, one of the things I tell people is there's certain things that I learned, and that you're running a really big business that were super helpful. 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:43.839 But then there's a different strategies and different tactics when you're

running something that ended up quite large but started off small, right? 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:53.279 But there was a point, I was a probably about six years in, and I remember going to this class with Ann Monteith, and I learned some things in that class. 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:54.479 You know who I'm talking about, right? 00:06:54.719 --> 00:06:55.119 Anne of course. 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:56.239 She's remarkable. 00:06:56.239 --> 00:06:59.039 Oh my gosh, she's so fantastic at teaching business. 00:06:59.039 --> 00:07:07.599 And I learned some things like I learned about PPA's benchmark study, and I learned about cost of sales percentages that were benchmarked. 00:07:07.599 --> 00:07:10.000 So I had some some numbers to aim for. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.399 These are actual, there's actually math that you can do to determine some of these things. 00:07:14.719 --> 00:07:14.959 I know. 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:15.759 Math it's crazy. 00:07:16.799 --> 00:07:17.519 Are you kidding me? 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.279 Why didn't anybody ever tell me this? 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:22.879 That's why you had to go to a conference and learn it, right? 00:07:23.679 --> 00:07:35.039 I teach some of that foundational stuff that even if you've been in business for a minute, there's little tweaks you can make to your thinking and to the way you do things and the way you strategize that can make huge differences in your outcome. 00:07:35.039 --> 00:07:38.399 So yeah, that's my love, is is getting to share some of that. 00:07:38.719 --> 00:07:43.439 So from the beginning, you said you went to uh a local A event. 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:44.319 Yeah, Lorda. 00:07:44.319 --> 00:07:50.159 Were you consistent throughout all of that time period going to whatever the local PPA was and then going to the national? 00:07:50.719 --> 00:07:52.000 Back in the day. 00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:55.279 Back in the day, you I know I feel like an old lady. 00:07:55.359 --> 00:07:57.439 Yeah, I was there, so trust me. 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:02.319 You would go to your state and then you would go to your regional, and then you would go to your national. 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:05.759 So going to Imaging USA was going to nationals. 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.679 So when you spoke about it, that was kind of the the the order of things. 00:08:09.679 --> 00:08:13.519 And so we have different names for things now, but it's really very similar. 00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.719 There's local guilds, which you guys, I'm gonna preach. 00:08:16.719 --> 00:08:19.759 Our community networks are remarkable. 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:20.799 They are remarkable. 00:08:20.799 --> 00:08:25.679 And just being part, I actually just got to visit down in Florida a couple of different groups. 00:08:25.679 --> 00:08:29.839 And the just community building is so important in the world these days. 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:41.679 So I think, yeah, getting involved in your community networks, getting involved at the local level,

getting involved in your state organization, and then of course being at imaging is just kind of the icing on the cake at the end of the year. 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:42.720 There you have it. 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.040 Yeah. 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:51.680 So let's talk a little bit about what's changed over the last say 10, 15 years, because a lot has changed, right? 00:08:51.680 --> 00:08:58.879 There are very few storefront studios with 15 photographers anymore, for sure. 00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:34.409 And so now that there's fewer storefront studios with 15 photographers as you grow up with it, the whole business model has changed a lot in terms of expenditure and marketing and everything. 00:09:34.409 --> 00:09:37.850 How is PPA adapted to that reality? 00:09:40.009 --> 00:09:47.289 Yeah, our membership has grown substantially, and I think that's because the the barrier to entry to become a photographer is fairly low. 00:09:47.289 --> 00:09:55.450 When I first started, and when we first started, you had to, I had a medium format cameras, and it was just a very different business model, right? 00:09:55.450 --> 00:09:58.090 People expected you to have a location for them to come to. 00:09:58.090 --> 00:10:00.169 They expected a studio setting. 00:10:00.169 --> 00:10:02.649 That was the style of the photography in those days. 00:10:02.649 --> 00:10:06.570 Yes. 00:10:06.810 --> 00:10:13.529 There was the whole system set up to display proofs and project them on a big screen so people would buy the big prints. 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:19.129 Yeah, we had a whole and so I think when the last we'll say the last 20 years, we've gone from film to digital. 00:10:19.129 --> 00:10:21.769 And so you and I both went through that transition. 00:10:21.769 --> 00:10:24.649 We were photographing weddings with film for a lot of years. 00:10:24.649 --> 00:10:28.810 I had my Bronica medium format square negatives. 00:10:28.810 --> 00:10:39.289 And so moving into the the digital world at that time and comparing that to what we're going through now with this AI shift. 00:10:39.289 --> 00:10:45.769 It's just these technological advances obviously do a lot of disruption in our industry. 00:10:45.769 --> 00:10:51.529 But I also think that photography, I honestly believe that photography is relational by nature. 00:10:51.529 --> 00:10:54.889 Literally, it's built into photography. 00:10:54.889 --> 00:11:02.490 You're either photographing a person, which is a relationship or a product, or you're you're creating an image that is for someone else to see. 00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:09.210 So there's never an individual component of it in the sense of relationship, right? 00:11:09.210 --> 00:11:24.090 And so I think there is that through line through all of the technological changes that we're gonna be going through, and as we are already starting in the last few years with AI, but I can also equate it to some of the changes that we went through from film to digital and what that looks like. 00:11:24.169 --> 00:11:40.810 It's it's one of those things where when people have an AI discussion now, it reminds me of when people were talking about in the 90s what Photoshop was gonna do, and people aren't gonna trust images anymore because you can edit them and all that. 00:11:40.810 --> 00:11:53.690 I remember I went to a press photographers conference on, and they were talking about how they were gonna make rules for press photographers in the 90s that if you couldn't do it in a dark room, you couldn't do it on a computer. 00:11:53.690 --> 00:11:57.769 It's the same sort of discussion now with what AI can do. 00:11:57.769 --> 00:12:08.169 Now, I would argue that the difference really is photographers back then were uncomfortable with the idea that their images, their creation could be edited as easily as text, right? 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:11.610 Yes, it was uncomfortable for them to give up that kind of control. 00:12:11.610 --> 00:12:23.049 And I think there's been a a sea change in the idea of what photographers really now it's like they shoot for the edit, they know I'll fix that in post and everything, right? 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:25.129 The whole psychology has changed. 00:12:25.529 --> 00:12:28.330 Absolutely, and it's also a societal change, yeah. 00:12:28.330 --> 00:12:31.049 And so it's not something that's just affecting photographers. 00:12:31.049 --> 00:12:42.009 Going to digital was a was also a societal change because everybody has a camera on their phone, and so so it's it'll be interesting because it's it is another societal change, right? 00:12:42.009 --> 00:12:47.289 People are using AI everywhere, and AI is neither good nor bad, it's both. 00:12:47.289 --> 00:12:49.049 It is a tool, it is neither, right? 00:12:49.049 --> 00:12:58.889 Yeah, and yeah, it's it'll be an interesting walk, but I also believe the other side of that coin is we're humans and we still we want human interaction. 00:12:58.889 --> 00:13:04.250 We could wax poetic, I'm sure, and talk phil philosophically the importance of some of this stuff. 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:12.090 And I will share with you something that drives me that I heard in 2023 the US Surgeon General at the time was Dr. 00:13:12.090 --> 00:13:20.730 Vivek Murphy, and he wrote a Surgeon General advisory that the biggest epidemic facing us in the United States was loneliness. 00:13:20.730 --> 00:13:28.169 And to me, so much of what we do is as photographers, is that relationship component piece, right? 00:13:28.169 --> 00:13:33.769 We see people, we see relationships, we shine a light on things that are most important in people's lives. 00:13:33.769 --> 00:13:38.490 And so there's a component to that I think we will be we'll be leaning into. 00:13:38.810 --> 00:13:46.970 Yeah, there's a whole philosophy now, which I think and a lot of my audience are trying to lean into is the authenticity of the images and things, right? 00:13:46.970 --> 00:13:55.210 That there's

nothing wrong with a generative AI image specifically in the sense that it's just an image, but in a lot of cases it's for entertainment, right? 00:13:55.210 --> 00:13:56.730 It's I'm gonna do a goofy. 00:13:56.730 --> 00:14:02.009 I just posted one the other day of me as a super spy vaulting into a car, right? 00:14:02.009 --> 00:14:05.850 That was clearly not what I'm doing, but it was a fun thing to create. 00:14:05.850 --> 00:14:09.529 Yeah, but I'm never gonna print that image, I'm gonna forget about it, right? 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:14.889 It's not that important family event or memory that I want to capture. 00:14:14.889 --> 00:14:24.330 Now, I can use AI enhancement to take out the blemishes and do some different things and maybe improve the workflow, but the original image I think has to be authentic. 00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:28.570 I'd never a word that came up when you were just saying that is disposable. 00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:30.730 Yeah, that is a little more disposable. 00:14:31.049 --> 00:14:36.810 Photographs of our families aren't disposable, and we're not gonna want to put AI images because we'd be laughed at, right? 00:14:37.049 --> 00:14:40.009 Yeah, and there have been a few people from the technology side who have tried that, right? 00:14:40.009 --> 00:14:52.409 They said, Hey, upload a your portrait or your picture into this, and then it's you can we'll put you in an AI scene and then you can put that on a canvas, and those have never gone anywhere because just there's not a lot of value in that. 00:14:52.409 --> 00:14:57.210 But let's talk a little bit about some of the technology stuff that is creeping into the space, right? 00:14:57.210 --> 00:14:59.289 Like AI portraits, right? 00:14:59.289 --> 00:15:00.889 That seems to be a thing now. 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:06.570 Where hey, if you want that headshot for LinkedIn, just take a selfie and we'll clean that up for you. 00:15:06.570 --> 00:15:10.409 What's the PPA stance on something like that, right? 00:15:10.810 --> 00:15:23.129 Yeah, I don't know that we have a stance, everything is evolving right now, so there's just a lot of moving parts, and we're trying to be mindful that there are segments of the industry that are going to be more affected than others. 00:15:23.129 --> 00:15:27.289 So I don't know that we have a stance so much on right or wrong, good or bad. 00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:27.610 Yeah. 00:15:27.930 --> 00:15:35.210 We're I would say when it comes to AI, the biggest the rock we stand on is the work that we're doing in DC on copyright. 00:15:35.210 --> 00:15:35.769 Sure. 00:15:35.769 --> 00:15:38.490 Like literally, so many images were scraped. 00:15:38.490 --> 00:15:48.009 That was the biggest intellectual property theft in this in the history of the world, where all the images that were scraped to to get all these LLMs working. 00:15:48.009 --> 00:15:50.009 And so we're on that side of things. 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:50.409 Sure. 00:15:50.409 --> 00:15:53.529

I feel like AI, it's not good or bad, it's how we use it. 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:55.610 There's still a lot of ethical issues, right? 00:15:55.610 --> 00:16:15.450 And just in terms of, you know, like you were talking earlier about privacy issues, there's copyright issues, and copyright is really one of the issues that I think PPA is well known for is protecting photographers' rights because there's so much ignorance in the general public about copyright. 00:16:15.450 --> 00:16:31.049 I mean, the example I always use is if I give you my camera to take my picture, even though I've given you my camera and I've given you permission to take my picture, you still own it as the photographer, right? 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:33.370 And people just don't people just don't grasp that. 00:16:33.370 --> 00:16:36.889 Or on the other side of it, what's on the internet, it must be free. 00:16:37.210 --> 00:16:38.730 That is actually one of the biggest things. 00:16:38.730 --> 00:16:40.009 It's so fascinating to me. 00:16:40.009 --> 00:16:43.930 I've spent a lot of time in the last year in DC, and I'm still learning. 00:16:43.930 --> 00:16:46.250 So I'll tell you, I'm still a novice in this. 00:16:46.250 --> 00:16:53.210 But as I've been learning some of the aha moments that I've had, I think, wow, I've been a professional for three decades. 00:16:53.210 --> 00:16:55.529 And some of the stuff I didn't realize. 00:16:55.529 --> 00:17:00.090 And I do have a passion for photographers understanding their rights when it comes to copyright. 00:17:00.330 --> 00:17:00.889 Absolutely. 00:17:01.129 --> 00:17:04.970 And yes, do you own your copyright when you photograph, when you take that imit? 00:17:04.970 --> 00:17:06.730 Absolutely, you own that copyright. 00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:15.049 But if you don't register your work with the US Copyright Office, you can only get actual damages. 00:17:15.049 --> 00:17:18.730 You cannot get statutory damages and attorney's fees paid. 00:17:18.730 --> 00:17:25.370 And if I could just say that and everybody just takes that, that it's so important to register your work. 00:17:25.370 --> 00:17:34.810 Now, the problem right now is it's also really hard for volume creators, wedding photographers, people who are doing a lot of volume work to register their images. 00:17:34.810 --> 00:17:37.609 So right now, PPA is working very closely. 00:17:37.609 --> 00:17:41.210 We have a lobbyist full-time in DC and we go up there monthly. 00:17:41.210 --> 00:17:55.450 We're working on the Visual Art Arts Copyright Reform Act, which is to create some common sense solutions to allow small high-volume creators to have an easier access to during their work with the copyright office. 00:17:55.450 --> 00:17:55.849 Yep. 00:17:55.849 --> 00:17:57.529 Lots of things to know on that end. 00:17:57.609 --> 00:18:01.609 But that's one of those like making the sausage stuff that people don't understand. 00:18:01.609 --> 00:18:04.970 That's what you need an industry association for, right? 00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:11.370 Because the vendors aren't going to necessarily take that on, and other people you have to need someone to advocate for the creative community. 00:18:11.370 --> 00:18:19.609 Do you get any help from other industry associations like music or movies to work together on that sort of thing? 00:18:19.849 --> 00:18:20.329 Absolutely. 00:18:20.329 --> 00:18:21.049 100%. 00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:24.250 So we work really closely with ASMP. 00:18:24.250 --> 00:18:31.930 Their CEO, Tom Madry, is actually a copyright attorney, and he's got a wealth of knowledge and information that he brings to the table. 00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:37.370 We also work with a coalition of visual artists, and we also, there's other copyright alliance. 00:18:37.370 --> 00:18:47.769 There's a lot of these groups that have been developed, but we're also meeting with the recording industry artists association and with the authors guild and with the graphic artists guild. 00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:57.849 At the end of the day, there is a bigger picture here that we're leaning into in our narrative, which is we don't want to wake up in our world where creatives are not incentivized to create. 00:18:57.849 --> 00:18:59.529 We don't want to wake up in that world. 00:18:59.529 --> 00:19:04.329 And photography is obviously most important to us because that's our membership. 00:19:04.329 --> 00:19:14.410 But also just in general, creative, small creators are being really affected by AI and people not really understanding the rules of copyright and intellectual properties. 00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:21.450 And the other thing is people don't realize is maybe they create something with an AI, but that's not copyrightable. 00:19:21.690 --> 00:19:30.170 It's not copyrightable, which going back to your headshot analogy earlier, talking about headshots, people don't realize if you have an AI headshot, that's not copyrightable. 00:19:30.170 --> 00:19:31.289 It's not ownable. 00:19:31.529 --> 00:19:32.809 And AI can't own anything. 00:19:32.809 --> 00:19:33.210 Right. 00:19:33.210 --> 00:19:33.450 Yeah. 00:19:33.849 --> 00:19:37.289 And so yeah, it's your likeness, it's your image, it's you. 00:19:37.289 --> 00:19:42.569 You think it's you, but it's if it's on a billboard somewhere and you go by and you're there's your image. 00:19:43.130 --> 00:19:45.769 I don't want to turn this into a full-blown AI discussion. 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:47.210 That's a whole nother topic. 00:19:47.210 --> 00:19:55.370 But what I do want to talk about is kind of what we touched on earlier on is the value of photography, right? 00:19:55.370 --> 00:20:20.569 And how you monetize that as a small business because it's getting increasingly difficult because you've got tons of new entrants where, like you said, you've got people who can they can go to a camera store, they can buy a drone, they can buy a camera, whatever, and hang out their shingle and call themselves quote

professional, unquote, photographer, and and they can undermine the marketplace with basically bargain basement pricing. 00:20:20.569 --> 00:20:24.009 And it's and a lot of times it's difficult to compete with. 00:20:24.009 --> 00:20:28.089 Also, you get people who hang out their shingles, professor fathers, and then they're just terrible. 00:20:28.089 --> 00:20:35.690 They don't show up, or they there's a lot of damage that can be done to the industry with those kind of folks. 00:20:35.690 --> 00:20:38.730 So understanding you can't police that, right? 00:20:38.730 --> 00:20:41.529 You really the best thing you do is educate those folks. 00:20:41.529 --> 00:20:46.490 But what do you do with the people who in the marketplace have to compete with that? 00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:51.529 Yeah, I think their biggest race to the bottom is when we commoditize our work. 00:20:51.690 --> 00:20:51.930 Sure. 00:20:52.089 --> 00:20:56.329 And the more we commoditize it, the more we're going to be facing that AI issue, right? 00:20:56.329 --> 00:21:02.809 So, really, what we care so much about is educating photographers on owning their value and charging appropriately. 00:21:02.809 --> 00:21:07.130 So it's not about a certain price point, it's about understanding the value of your time. 00:21:07.130 --> 00:21:12.089 When I teach, one of the very first questions I ask people is what is your definition of success? 00:21:12.089 --> 00:21:16.250 Because that's going to really define everything else and how you want to build your business. 00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:22.250 One of the things I love about photography is that you can build it to fit any lifestyle that you want, right? 00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:23.370 It is totally up to you. 00:21:23.370 --> 00:21:24.569 What lifestyle do you want? 00:21:24.569 --> 00:21:25.690 How much do you want to make? 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:27.289 How many days a week do you want to work? 00:21:27.289 --> 00:21:28.890 How many vacations do you want to take a year? 00:21:28.890 --> 00:21:29.849 Where do you want to live? 00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:30.970 Like all of those things. 00:21:30.970 --> 00:21:32.490 You can build a business around it. 00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:42.970 But being really intentional with how you do that and understanding what it takes to get there, I think is one of the biggest things that people don't spend the time to plan and to intentionally build their business. 00:21:42.970 --> 00:21:44.329 They think, oh, I can take pictures. 00:21:44.329 --> 00:21:46.410 And then someone says, Oh, you should do this as a business. 00:21:46.410 --> 00:21:48.650 And then they're like, Oh, okay, how much do I charge? 00:21:48.650 --> 00:21:50.970 I don't know, how much is the guy down the street charging? 00:21:50.970 --> 00:21:56.170 They're not intentionally building their business based on their own ideation of what they want their life to be. 00:21:56.170 --> 00:21:59.769 And so I will throw this in there because I think it's an amazing tool. 00:21:59.769 --> 00:22:03.049 And it's, I always tell people it's kind of an entry-level tool. 00:22:03.049 --> 00:22:14.410 This is not meant to be your PhD project tool, but we have on PPA.com, if you I think if you go to PPA.com/slash, if it's not there, you can find it under business resources. 00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:20.890 But the square one tool allows people to go in and to say, okay, I know I want to make X amount of dollars a year. 00:22:20.890 --> 00:22:29.370 According to the benchmark studies that have been done for gosh, over 25 years at this point, that I know that my cost of sales needs to be 20%. 00:22:29.370 --> 00:22:32.250 And I know that I need to keep my expenses to a certain percent. 00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:38.809 Percentage and my, my, so you're looking at all of these things in conjunction to each other based on the benchmark studies. 00:22:38.809 --> 00:22:51.210 And then you can get a really good sense of, I can tell you just offhand, because I just taught last week in Florida, for someone who wants to make 100,000, according to the benchmarks, you have to sell 222,000. 00:22:51.210 --> 00:22:54.089 So you start to understand what it takes to run your business. 00:22:54.089 --> 00:23:01.049 And then I would also say to people, my other huge piece of advice to just own, please let this sink into your DNA. 00:23:01.049 --> 00:23:02.490 You are not your business. 00:23:02.490 --> 00:23:06.009 You have to be successful and your business has to be successful. 00:23:06.009 --> 00:23:13.450 So you have to think of yourself as two entities so that you can pay yourself appropriately and business healthy. 00:23:13.690 --> 00:23:13.930 Yeah. 00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:29.930 That's really great advice because a lot of entrepreneurs they don't pay themselves first and then they realize if they're putting all their money into the infrastructure of the business, and maybe they've got a a second shooter and some other things and they're broke. 00:23:29.930 --> 00:23:33.130 They're living in their car, but everyone else is doing fine. 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:34.329 Exactly. 00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:35.210 Yes. 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:44.970 Yeah, a great point because when people get into a business, a small business person, there is a lot of ego that's inserted into that, right? 00:23:44.970 --> 00:23:46.490 Has PPA done a survey? 00:23:46.490 --> 00:23:51.849 How many of your members, their businesses name photography? 00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:57.529 We haven't actually done that study yet, but just an anecdotal look would would tell us, yeah. 00:23:58.089 --> 00:23:59.690 Probably more than half, at least. 00:23:59.930 --> 00:24:00.490 It is, yeah. 00:24:00.730 --> 00:24:02.250 So there is that component, right? 00:24:02.250 --> 00:24:04.890 And they do take their craft very personally seriously. 00:24:04.890 --> 00:24:07.609 But you're saying it's you really need to disengage that. 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:08.410 Absolutely.

00:24:08.410 --> 00:24:09.609 Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:24:09.609 --> 00:24:10.490 It's so interesting. 00:24:10.490 --> 00:24:16.250 I always joke, I married an accountant, and literally he never shows up at a party and says, Hi, my name's Scott. 00:24:16.250 --> 00:24:17.370 I'm an accountant. 00:24:17.609 --> 00:24:17.849 Right. 00:24:18.170 --> 00:24:18.250 Right. 00:24:18.250 --> 00:24:20.890 But every photographer we know is hi, I'm Angela. 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:22.009 I'm a photographer. 00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:24.490 We are so much what we do, right? 00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:27.609 And I I actually, it's funny you talk about naming your business. 00:24:27.609 --> 00:24:29.289 I actually did not name my business. 00:24:29.289 --> 00:24:33.450 I had a photography studio for 25 years, and I did not name it after me. 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:43.289 And I love that I didn't because now my longtime studio manager still runs the business and she's incredibly successful and she has 25 plus years of clients at this point. 00:24:43.289 --> 00:24:44.730 It's just something to think about. 00:24:44.970 --> 00:24:47.370 That is one of the things that I don't know if we have time to get into. 00:24:47.370 --> 00:24:50.890 Maybe it's another conversation, is the whole idea of passing the business on, right? 00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:51.370 Yeah. 00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:57.049 Because that whole decision is how you're going to structure your business. 00:24:57.370 --> 00:24:58.809 It should be part of your thoughts. 00:24:58.809 --> 00:24:59.130 Yeah. 00:24:59.450 --> 00:25:09.049 Because I'm and there's nothing wrong with the idea that, hey, I'm going to start up a business, I'm going to be a professional photographer for 30 years, and then at the end of the that time period, I'm going to just turn the key and I'm done. 00:25:09.049 --> 00:25:11.210 There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you plan for. 00:25:11.370 --> 00:25:11.769 Absolutely. 00:25:11.769 --> 00:25:12.009 Sure. 00:25:12.170 --> 00:25:16.970 If you try to sell your business and your Angela Kurkian in photography, guess what? 00:25:16.970 --> 00:25:18.329 Angela's not here anymore. 00:25:18.569 --> 00:25:21.289 There's actually someone who's doing a really good job of teaching on that. 00:25:21.289 --> 00:25:22.650 And I had just written his name down. 00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:24.890 His name's Mike Price when he talks about that. 00:25:24.890 --> 00:25:25.609 Yeah. 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.049 We might have some things for him on PPA.com sometime in the future. 00:25:30.250 --> 00:25:35.210 So it sounds to me like you guys have a crazy amount of resources, as you always have had. 00:25:35.210 --> 00:25:40.650 You've had the magazine and you've had all the various conferences and educational things. 00:25:40.650 --> 00:25:43.049 You've added a video component to your business. 00:25:43.049 --> 00:25:50.329 So where can people go to get fully immersed into the professional photographer of America experience? 00:25:50.650 --> 00:25:50.890 Sure. 00:25:50.890 --> 00:25:53.529 Oh gosh, Gary, I love that you asked me that question. 00:25:53.529 --> 00:25:57.609 So PBA.com is the easiest, most direct route. 00:25:57.609 --> 00:26:00.569 Photovision is our new, it's a member benefit. 00:26:00.569 --> 00:26:13.049 So photovision, if you think of it like Netflix for photographers, what we love about Photovision, and one of the things that's most important to us is that we are the most trusted resource for photographers to get their information. 00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:16.970 Anyone can go scan YouTube and you can learn a lot on YouTube, don't get me wrong. 00:26:16.970 --> 00:26:20.089 But you have to filter through everything that you're going through, right? 00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:23.769 But to know, am I learning from someone who is actually doing this? 00:26:23.769 --> 00:26:24.009 Right. 00:26:24.329 --> 00:26:25.930 Has it been vetted is the thing. 00:26:26.250 --> 00:26:29.049 We vet all of our speakers, all of our content. 00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:32.569 They say that you become the five people that you spend the most time with. 00:26:32.569 --> 00:26:36.569 And to me, that also extends to books and to videos. 00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:37.130 Okay. 00:26:37.289 --> 00:26:44.089 And so if you are reading great books, you get to hang out with Seth Goat and Jim Collins and Stephen Bartlett. 00:26:44.089 --> 00:26:47.289 And the same thing is true of the video and the content that you're taking in. 00:26:47.289 --> 00:26:50.809 Are you getting information from people who are where you want to be? 00:26:50.809 --> 00:26:54.569 So I think that's one, I think it's important for video content. 00:26:54.569 --> 00:27:04.970 Yes, that's great, but also for in-person conferences and meetings and being part of community networks and just being around people in general who are going to help you get where you want to go, right? 00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:05.930 Awesome. 00:27:06.250 --> 00:27:15.210 Definitely want to send people to PPA.com, which is the home of the oldest photography association on the planet, which is awesome. 00:27:15.210 --> 00:27:21.849 I just can't stop saying that because I just think that's such a great thing that they've been around so long and be able to adapt it through the changes over the years. 00:27:21.849 --> 00:27:26.890 Thank you, Angela, for your time and attention today and appreciate all the knowledge you've shared. 00:27:26.890 --> 00:27:29.769 And hopefully we'll see you in person sometime soon. 00:27:30.089 --> 00:27:31.210 I can't wait, Gary. 00:27:31.210 --> 00:27:32.009 Thank you so much. 00:27:32.009 --> 00:27:33.769 You have been so amazing. 00:27:35.609 --> 00:27:38.970 Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. 00:27:38.970 --> 00:27:46.329 Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.theadpixels society.com.