TRANSCRIPT 🔗
shivaji dasgupta: I'm very clear about one thing which I can say and people will disagree is that the Kirana, the Kirana store, right now you know sounds like some kind of an obsolete kind of a thought. The Kirana store is going to make a huge comeback in a new format, as an integrated hub
Sakshi Yadav: Hello everyone, welcome to the B2B SaaS Marketing Podcast by Concurate. Today, I want to start with something a lot of you are probably already feeling, even if you haven't put a name to it. So if you have worked in marketing in India for more than even five minutes, you already know this feeling about the framework STP, which is segmentation, targeting and positioning. So think of it like, you run the perfect campaign, you segment your audience, you target them. you position your product exactly the way your MBA taught you to. And somehow it just doesn't land the way it should. So today's guest says he knows why. He spent over two decades inside agencies and working with brands like ITC, Pepsi and Domino's. So when he's saying it, he's not any outsider critic, but he's someone who used the old playbook for years before deciding it was broken. So he threw it out and built his own three word framework instead. You'll know more about it in this podcast and his latest book as well, one that is specifically built for how India actually buys and not how the Western world taught us to think buyers behave. So what that framework is and why it works is basically the whole of his new book, is marketing that works. With that, I welcome you Shivaji Das.
shivaji dasgupta: Good morning, Sakshi. A pleasure to be here indeed.
Sakshi Yadav: Yeah, hiii. So Shivaji, before we get into the book, I want to tell our audience a quick story about how we actually landed here today. So, you know, one day I was just looking for a good marketing book and that's when I came across Marketing That Works. I just went to check the author's page on Amazon and it listed someone called Shivaji Gupta. So I looked into his other books and none of them matched. All wrong genre, nothing lined up. So I dug a little more and found some interesting articles. found his old podcast interview and realized the actual author was Shivaji Das Gupta and not the Shivaji Gupta Amazon had Credited So I posted about this little mix up on LinkedIn. Shivaji reacted to it. We started talking and that's genuinely how this whole conversation came to be. So Shivaji, have to say, I'm really glad that Amazon got your name wrong or we might never have landed up here.
shivaji dasgupta: I'm equally glad. This is a great conversation. I look forward to it.
Sakshi Yadav: Yeah, so Shivaji I have to ask you this because everyone who has read your book mentions that it's very sharp, it's insightful, but it has also got this sarcasm running through it and people clearly love that which you you don't usually expect from a marketing book. So Shivaji, where does that come from? Did that come naturally while writing? because it clearly worked.
shivaji dasgupta: thank you. Great question. So I think it comes naturally to an extent because I'm a Bengali and Bengali genes are sarcastic by nature. But that apart, I think
Sakshi Yadav: Thank you.
shivaji dasgupta: what what is being seen as sarcasm is perhaps a pattern of, you know, laughing at our own selves. That's something I really believe is important for our collective sanity as society and professionals. So by lightening the mood of the book, I think that makes it easier perhaps to absorb some of the more challenging transformational things that I'm suggesting. So that's it.
Sakshi Yadav: Right, clearly we can see people are loving it. Okay, give it to us straight, like you have your three word framework, right, UMA. Just explain it in the way, you you will explain it to a friend over a chair, like in the simplest way possible.
shivaji dasgupta: Absolutely. so it's very simple. UMA is Unify, Magnify, Amplify. While most marketing constructs start with the products and the services that is being sold, my construct starts with the one billion Indians who have access to smartphones, who are exposed, who have interested in upgrading their lives, most importantly, because you know what we are seeing today in India is this whole pattern of wanting to upgrade. somebody who's having an iPhone X wants an iPhone latest version, somebody who's having a feature phone wants a smartphone, somebody who has nothing wants a feature phone. So I think this whole pattern of upgradation is what I picked on in this whole aspect of unify. it's a bunch of one billion people and I've broken them up into multiple areas which influence their life, which is say health and wellness, which is education, which is employment, which is holidays, which is financial security, which is old age, it's actually entertainment, pop culture, sport. So I'm looking at the entire customer in terms of the customer as a human being who's wanting to upgrade across those ten or twelve different buckets, which is Unify. So after we understand this customer, then the business person or the promoter or the marketing head says, Chalo Hongko, which business do I want to do I want to be in? And that's a function of my expertise, that's a function of my budgets. That's where the next part comes in in terms of Magnify, which is to say that look, this is the playground that I want to be in. So for example, if I'm want to be in the playground of mobility, which is say digital mobility. So I can be a wearable, I can be a mobile phone, I can be a Spotify, I can be in multiple different categories of business. which is how the product is defined. And obviously, as I mentioned, Tthe businesses that I will be in is akin to what my interests, abilities, you know, capacities are in a simple sense. That's magnifying. And finally, in terms of amplifiers, once I decide the playground, once I decide the product, I figure out the brand story. how do I build a narrative? How do
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I build a story? How do I build something which is ownable? It is very important here to understand that nothing in this day and age is permanently differentiable. forget permanently, It's not differentiable beyond six months. anybody can get capital and labor together, outsource and make everything possible. So how do I create a brand story? How do I create energy around it? And how do I how am I able to measure it in a way that can make my brand successful? So that is unify, magnify, amplify. That is also in a way, It's not a static linear process, it's actually a cyclical process. Because after you do a brand, then once again the unify cycle starts again because that same customer is again now wanting to upgrade to newer things. So that's really over a cup of chai or coffee is how I would describe it.
Sakshi Yadav: Absolutely. I really love the idea behind the UMA. It's
shivaji dasgupta: Thank you.
Sakshi Yadav: clearly, something new and something that really fits the market. Right. So. Right.
shivaji dasgupta: Thank you. Yeah. That was the intent, absolutely.
Sakshi Yadav: So Shivaji had to, sell your own book using UMA, your own three word framework. Right now, just 10 seconds. No, knows it's nothing. So what would be your pitch? In fact, let's make this real instead of theoretical. Let's put UMA to the test I want to hand you a live challenge if you're up for it.
shivaji dasgupta: Sure, absolutely.
Sakshi Yadav: I think you'll have actual scars from this one. Let's say there is a small B2B service and it's a consulting or advisory, something you know intangible where the client can touch the product actually. And they can't really compare it on a spec sheet or has to basically trust you before they buy. There is no big budget, no celebrity, nothing flashy to show basically. So how does UMA even apply to something you can't even hold in your hands?
shivaji dasgupta: So, first and foremost, if you're a B2B service, you would typically start off with the customer that you're trying to sell to. I will say, don't do that. I'll say start with the customer your customer is trying to sell to. Start with their entire universe. Start what is unifying people in that universe through the lens of upgrade cons product service that you're looking at. Start the conversation with your client with that, and then see the role, what is the need cap in a advisory or a consultancy product. That can help your customer fulfill his customer's need. So that's really what the starting point is, as opposed to saying, is that market has other consulting also, So how do how am I better than the consulting service? That will not work. What will work is you start with your customers and customer and then apply UMA from that perspective and find out the need cap and what your solution is. Ownable solution is to deliver that.
Sakshi Yadav: Right, right, got it. So Shivaji, not the big framework stuff, is there like some small rule of thumb you were taught early in your career that you have quietly stopped believing in now?
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah, I think it's a very basic and global thing called USP, which we were taught unique selling proposition. So I believe that it doesn't work at any level. There's nothing called unique anymore. I just mentioned that. There's nothing called selling anymore. It's all about building a customer engagement, a relationship, and an experience. And number three, there's nothing called a proposition anymore. It's actually an experience, a physical experience, and no longer a promise. So USP overall as a construct and also its individual components are actually which actually dangerously obsolete. was daily.
Sakshi Yadav: I believe everybody starts with promoting themselves by showing their USP, what's their unique selling point. So they start
shivaji dasgupta: Proposition, yeah, point. Mm-hmm
Sakshi Yadav: with that just to differentiate themselves from the crowd. So I guess that's where we are making the mistakes. We should not focus on that.
shivaji dasgupta: Because tomorrow i yeah, if you start with something, it will take me exactly two months or one month or one week to replicate that with money and capital. Unless it's a patented product or something. Yeah. So you always start with ownable,
Sakshi Yadav: definitely.
shivaji dasgupta: own it, own it. That's the whole point. Don't try to make yourself unique. Just make sure what you have is yours forever.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. So Shivaji, if possible, can you name any Indian brand, think nails what you are talking about in the book without, know, they are realizing it, they are just doing it
shivaji dasgupta: So I think there are two brands I would like to talk about. One is Neeman's. Neeman's is shoes, right? They're comfort shoes. it's a pure D2C brand. I think it's multiples of hundred crores in revenue as we speak right now. No conventional advertising. Now, what Neeman's picked on is the need for comfortable mobility as the unifier. Comfortable mobility, okay? As opposed to formal shoes, you know, sneakers, walking shoes, at athletic shoes, and so on and so forth. Now, if I pin my unification as unifying variable as comfortable mobility, then I decide which playground I want to go to. So Neiman started off with comfortable mobility, with essentially walking shoes or exercise shoes to start with. That was one playground. Then they with products. Then they moved on to formal shoes. So now they you know they are having office shoes with that same comfortable mobility built into the soul. Now they are having even conventional Indian kind of a footwear as well. So basically what they have done is they have found the unifier in comfortable mobility and they're applying that across multiple playgrounds and products, which were the conventional segments of the earlier day and age. And their story is really about context. The story in terms of conversation is about how you are doing, for example, Durga Puja Pandel Hopping in
Calcutta or you are going to work in a metro. So it's a really a classic example of how the UMA framework has built a brand At a very low cost. That's again something that it's very important to understand. The other brand I I feel quite you know excited about is a brand called Licious. I think it's all over India. It's it's a home delivery kind of you know, they do fish, they do chicken, they do vegetables, they do all kinds of stuff, which is very to eat, very to cook and draw. they also have a very similar mindset, you know, where they when they tapped onto this whole thing of a new age Indian virtue of looking for freshness and hygiene. so your unifier was freshness and hygiene, which tomorrow can be a kitchen appliance, which tomorrow can be spices as well. But they latched on to freshness and hygiene and then they started off product by product and product, as opposed to saying, I want to be in the frozen meats business or the frozen beverages business, etc. etc. And now they built a beautiful story of contextualization in terms of they're showing the their product being used as an intermediate for Happy occasions, family occasions, picnics and so on and so forth. These are all case studies in modern branding, where you don't spend top dollar on print and TV, but you build relationship with customer because you've cracked the unify code, whether it is comfortable mobility or whether it is you know accessible health and IG.
Sakshi Yadav: Right, absolutely. Even I love their products, Licious.
shivaji dasgupta: You must understand that Licious is a brand which is actually
Sakshi Yadav: Right.
shivaji dasgupta: commanding a reasonable premium, fifteen, twenty percent over market. But no one minds the premium if you can capture a role in life.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. And their products are so fresh and so hygienic,
shivaji dasgupta: That's right.
Sakshi Yadav: we are tempting to order them. And
shivaji dasgupta: That's right.
Sakshi Yadav: at that point, price doesn't matter to us because all we care about is quality.
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah, you're you're willing to pay that premium. Correct. You're willing to pay a premium. That's the way it is, yeah.
Sakshi Yadav: Definitely. So Shivaji, have to ask this since I work for a content marketing agency. I see that most content marketing advice still starts with know your audience for this particular persona, that buyer journey. your whole book argues against that, So if you were to advising a content team today, how would content strategy actually change if you apply UMA instead of the segmented approach?
shivaji dasgupta: so what I advise people is that, in my construct I have to create something called the unified dashboard. Okay, dashboard list, as I mentioned to you, education, health and wellness, you know, senior citizen, silver years, then mobility, digital mobility, physical mobility, holidays, entertainment. So these are ten or twelve, or tomorrow can be eight or ten as the case may be, areas of influence for the Indian customer. So, if you're a content agency, you obviously are open to taking business from any category, any product or service. I would first urge you to have this unified dashboard as an in-house kind of an insight and a knowledge tool. Doesn't cost you anything extra now. You have AI also to help you. Constantly keep on tapping what are the latest upgrades and developments in the area, and that will help you create a fundamental client agnostic or a category agnostic. strategic tool to start with. I'll give you an example. And I a very, very common example now is the weight loss drug regime that's happened, right? After you have Ozempic, you have Mounjaro already, Mounjaro has outsold I think augmented or whoever was the best selling Indian prescription drug. So today we have a whole new generation of Indians who are drastically consciously losing weight. That's a health and wellness parameter. But that has implications also on food and beverages because that fellow's appetite has now gone down. Now, the person wants to be fed well, but not in the volume that the person was being fed. That has that has an implication on clothes. Now, for example, all of us have a certain frequency of buying clothes, right? You buy once a week or once a week, whatever, whatever peer frequency. But suddenly, one day, consciously, you you lose 30 kilos. You have to change your entire wardrobe. It's not just one thing you're trying to buy at any point in time. So You'll find one of these dashboard elements having an implication across multiple, if not you know, every kind of category. So, my first tip to another kind of story to you is create a client and category agnostic dashboard of what is happening across the country. So when you get a brief, when you get a client, it's almost like you're digging into that pool to see acha ya say late, health say yeah, you know. For example, from holidays where there's a people want to experience India more, is there something that can be brought to foods? Approach it from that angle, and then you'll get your answers in terms of what is the content. And my second point I want to say is that, when you do content, it's not that if I'm eating chicken or if I'm walking around, it's not that that is the only thing that's on my mind at that point in time. Please put your product or service in the context of a spontaneous or an organic customer experience. That's again something which I would it's like saying if I do cooking, I can show that I'm cooking in my kitchen, as opposed to saying it's my daughter's birthday. So that's really where the whole context of it. So these are the really the two tips I have for any content marketing agency to look at.
Sakshi Yadav: Thanks so much for telling all about it. And
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah.
Sakshi Yadav: we talked about AI and since we are living in this AI era, what do you think what's the one thing about AI in marketing that you think is way more hype than
it really deserves?
shivaji dasgupta: I think this whole story that AI is going to replace jobs, AI is going to replace people, that's hyped. I think AI is not going to replace people in the long run, short run, mid run, yes, maybe, but long term, mid term it will not. AI is going to be you know, it's like going to be a value-added accessory. It's going to be a tool you can use. Just like the computer and the laptop came into our lives. It's like when I started my career, laptops were just about coming in. You know, we were used to making presentations on slides and projectors. So did the quality of thinking did the premium on quality of thinking has it gone down in the digital age? No, that does not change. What happens is that your intermediaries for converting a thought to an action, they change. So I'd say AI is not a replacement tool, AI needs to be used as a accessory for excellence.
Sakshi Yadav: Correct me if I'm wrong. So it is more
shivaji dasgupta: But
Sakshi Yadav: about not AI versus humans, but more like AI plus humans to make the work efficient.
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah, it's about how yeah, it's humans plus AI. Absolutely. That's how it'll end up.
Sakshi Yadav: So marketing moves so fast right now, Especially with AI changing how people even discover brands. So if you had to just add one new chapter to your book today, something that didn't feel urgent when you were writing it, but feels urgent now. What would that chapter be about?
shivaji dasgupta: See, I think one thing that I it would be actually around AI. I have touched upon AI a bit in my book, but I think the one thing that I would really like to do is actually a refresher for marketers on how to use apply to really effectively apply AI for productivity, efficiency, and outcomes. You know, we recently a brand went on record in LinkedIn saying that they have eliminated the marketing department, that they're just replacing it with AI. I think a certain sense of maturity is required in the leadership of companies. And what I would like to say is that this human maturity is something I want to talk about. You know, as to this human maturity and how to use AI and how to use make AI an in an asset for personalization as opposed to creating the outcomes. And that's really what I would like to talk about. AI can help us, you know, get the right message to the right person. But designing the right message still remains a very, very strategic intuitive exercise.
Sakshi Yadav: I guess we really need this and we'll be looking forward to this.
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah. Yeah. So
Sakshi Yadav: Right? So, you know, if a small brand come to you with basically, no money, what's the one thing they could still do today that costs nothing but, you know, actually works?
shivaji dasgupta: yeah, so the very simply that one thing I would say in a positive way, and don't get me wrong, in a positive way is to create a controversy. You create a controversy. Create a controversy in LinkedIn, make a dramatic statement. Don't do something which is illegal, unethical, or disruptive, but create a controversy. The moment you create a controversy, people will notice you, and then if you have the product and service which should definitely be ready by that point in time, you probably have a head start in you know, kind of getting an advantage without paying too much money for it.
Sakshi Yadav: like build out positive controversy out there.
shivaji dasgupta: I'll give you a simple example. today we are in this age of you know people saying this this is bad, this is bad, this is good. Just have an opinion to say that X is better than Y because of this scientific reason. Create conversation. So controversy also means conversation. So you know when you create a controversy, you create conversations. When you create conversations, you create curiosity. And that leads to trial. And if your product and service is good enough, then it's just something that will work for you.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. Right. So Shivaji, your book takes on this segmentation, targeting and positioning framework, And this framework is basically been unquestioned in marketing for decades now. But most of the books counter arguments what you are talking about the Indian market specifically, right? Do you think UMA only works for India or is there a version of this argument that applies globally as well, yet?
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah, that's a great question. I think what's important to understand is that in it works for India because India has a set of circumstances. And those circumstances are a rapidly evolving consumer base, large numbers, high quality of digitization, easy, easily accessible digitization. it's about you know, infrastructure being bridged by e-commerce, logistics, et cetera, et cetera. Democracy. That's a that's you know, it's an underrated aspect. The fact is that we are a democracy is also a huge aid for consumption. Okay, and also a whole young population. So if I add all of these, I mean it's if it's it can be something which can work for an Indonesia, it can work for a Brazil, it can work for I don't know where else, but the point is it is definitely a model for a similar set of circumstances like this. It can be for Africa, it can be certain African countries, but it's possibly not a first world model because it's not a Sweden Denmark model because that's built on a certain degree of exclusion and exclusivity and lower set of people and numbers. That's again the other story that comes in. So yeah, it's a template. If people confirm to the template, that
Sakshi Yadav: Right. So let's do a quick rapid fire round. I'll
shivaji dasgupta: Sure.
Sakshi Yadav: ask you a few questions. Just give me a one word or a one-liner answer for each of the
shivaji dasgupta: Sha shot, absolutely.
Sakshi Yadav: questions. So what do you think what's one marketing buzzword you are absolutely sick of hearing these days?
shivaji dasgupta: wine marketing buzzword, there are many
actually, but I'd say the one word that I'm really sick of hearing this day is virality. Okay. See this whole thing of virality
Sakshi Yadav: Right.
shivaji dasgupta: is called viral can I see nothing can be done viral. Virality is an organic process. That's the way I see it.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. So, I would love to hear what's that one childhood ad jingle, you know, that's still stuck in your head even now.
shivaji dasgupta: So I washing powder Nirma was something that's definitely stuck in my head. I think there's something
Sakshi Yadav: Alright.
shivaji dasgupta: very nice about it which became a part of pop culture and everything else that we were doing. So that's definitely a something
Sakshi Yadav: late.
shivaji dasgupta: that stuck in my head.
Sakshi Yadav: And What do you think what's the one word that captures the state of Indian marketing right now?
shivaji dasgupta: I think transition. I think transition is the word I would like to use. Chaotic transition, if I may say so. Because what's happened is that, you know, this whole digital ecosystem or digital first business models have transformed businesses to a way that a whole lot of traditional you know, approaches and measures are no longer working. So I think this whole chaotic transformation would be the way I would look at this whole exercise.
Sakshi Yadav: if you had to tattoo one line from your own book onto every young marketer's arm, which line would it be?
shivaji dasgupta: So I think it's not so much of a line, but it would be more in terms of thought process. And the thought process would really be that, be ruthlessly customer centric. Because what's the truth is that do not start with the product or service, start with the human being, the Indian, how she lives, how he lives. And make that the beginning of your journey. That's going to be your secret of success.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. Since we are talking about the Indian marketing, can you give us one prediction for the Indian marketing in the next five years? it has to be something, people will disagree with you on.
shivaji dasgupta: Yeah, yeah, I think I'm very clear about one thing which I can say and people will disagree is that the Kirana, the Kirana store, right now you know sounds like some kind of an obsolete kind of a thought. The Kirana store is going to make a huge comeback in a new format, as an integrated hub as a you know, kind of an omnichannel front face, as a relationship magnet for brands, because brands now want to build relationships with their customers once again in this given day and age. which is now under threat. also from the perspective of community and employability. So for multiple reasons, the kirana and not the faceless or the soulless in quotes delivery person on a vehicle. That's going to be the story and journey that's going to make a huge comeback. Huge comeback, I think. Just a matter of time.
Sakshi Yadav: Definitely we are seeing this new boom as well because of all its quick delivery apps.
shivaji dasgupta: yes. Yeah, yeah.
Sakshi Yadav: Right. So I are you planning to write any sequel or maybe another book anytime soon?
shivaji dasgupta: yes, of course. Because So I think the big story here is that my next book is going to be on writing more stories about India. It's going to be about Indian customers, customer nuggets and new developments that's happening in India. There are lots happening as we speak, and I would like to educate and you know share my thoughts with as many businesses as possible for them to benefit from this thought process. That's really my book.
Sakshi Yadav: Definitely looking forward to your new book. Yeah.
shivaji dasgupta: Thank you so much. Thank you very much, Sakshi.
Sakshi Yadav: So Shivaji, this has genuinely been one of my favorite conversations so far. what stood out to me today is that you are not just talking theory here. Everything you said came from something you actually lived through. Maybe
shivaji dasgupta: Yes.
Sakshi Yadav: it was a client, a mistake, a moment that changed how you think. And that's rare these days. And honestly, if anything Shivaji said today felt familiar to anyone here. If you have ever run a campaign that checked every walks on a paper and still it didn't land, I would genuinely recommend picking his book which is marketing that works. Read it, try applying UMA to your own strategy and see what fits actually. And if it does work for you, do come back and leave your feedback in the comment section.
shivaji dasgupta: Thank you very much, Sakshi, f for having me over and it's really been a pleasure. and I wish every business in this country the finest of success.
Sakshi Yadav: Thank you so much for your time today, for the honesty and for letting me even throw a live challenge at you. This was genuinely a lot of fun. And thank you all for tuning in. If this one made you think differently just share it with someone who needs to hear it. And I'll see you on the next one. Thank you.
shivaji dasgupta: Bye bye, thank you so much.