ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Wanstrath joined the show to talk about the past, present and future of GitHub.

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English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:15hello welcome to the changelog episode zero dot one dot zero it's our first point release my name is Adam is to go back and I am when Ellen I'm really excited about the show today we get a great guest Chris once drawn from get help a pretty big
00:00:31fans get out what was what you say when I am pretty much they're not a five percent of what we're doing to change logs probably at least seventy percent of what I'm elsewhere right we share stuff there we can we connect with people there and it has been
00:00:45huge for open source and %HESITATION in this past few years and what they've been doing has been awesome to see the growth around software in the way that the personal relationships and exchanges happen in a way that's of all the last two years there of their development you
00:00:59know get a get have proposed changing how open sources conducted and it's just really changing the landscape for sharing and and doing what good have you know claims they're wanting to do in that social coding just brings a %HESITATION that aspect emerging and and forking projects that we
00:01:16just haven't seen before has lots of stuff Chris talks about to an interview the kind of details on the social cutting aspects of get hub in the four Q. and and how that %HESITATION proliferates %HESITATION suffered of element in this open source landscaper in awhile yes interesting to
00:01:32hear some of the backstory how good have got started and then some the success they've had it's the it's just been quite successfully work guess less a few years and at least thirty years that they've been around right right that have been around two years now if you're
00:01:49taking the internet years though it's twenty years right and %HESITATION close I could buy stuff that they were three years old but I was mistaken there actually to and in Chriss eyes is actually one because he's a Philly really started until they start paying themselves and us of
00:02:04that and that's that's kind of clear so that too because they treat it like a a bootstrap company which was for the first year in and to them it didn't really become real until they started to see some you know paychecks from their day to day operations and
00:02:19turning into a real full time you know I'm dedicated this one percent which they were obviously but %HESITATION let's go out to the west is cool to see come from Mrs %HESITATION is going to get a dot com for slash explore welcome to all the new listeners are
00:02:31coming from the explore page again have that took us by surprise Chris reached out to us couple weeks ago and said they were putting that in the works and we were excited about having our changelog podcast episodes up on github dot com slash explore but I think the
00:02:46%HESITATION the cool features of that page of the training repose and the other feature repose yeah yeah for sure certainly excited to see where this goes but about what I see so far is pretty exciting measure stick around to the end of the episode got kind of a
00:03:00big announcement some other things we've got some skunk works projects that we've been working on so I stick around the end of the episode for a special treat don't fast forward don't even think about moving the dial just just listen to the whole thing and you'll get to
00:03:13the end it's worth every minute service you will get to the episode there win let's get to it we're here with Chris Wallace struts he is the one of the co founders of a very cool website we all know and love called ghetto dot com Chris wants to
00:03:36say hi to everybody hello everybody so Chris a it what we're here in this world we call open source we all love it we all know it and it's a it's a very very tight group that's come along and I think that we all know they get help
00:03:49it seems to be %HESITATION every day more more becoming the epicenter of open source how do you feel about that made feel good it makes me happy because I do a lot of open source work and one of the reasons we don't get help was to make it
00:04:02easier to you know send patches and do all that sort of %HESITATION TDM and I think it's gonna come along pretty well and a lot of people are realizing how easy it is making their out open source maintenance like when you start having five or six or seven
00:04:16really small open source projects you don't care about exclusively or all that much but you still wanna make sure they're up to date become a time sink you can start to have things pile up that's what happened to me when I was %HESITATION consulting and it's it's great
00:04:28that could have is coming along and it's still going at directions making open source easier for for you as a maintainer you as a contributor and the fact that it's becoming %HESITATION so popular not just something that actually works for Sam's popular is is pretty incredible and it's
00:04:43great because %HESITATION you know now that I'm working more and more and focusing on get hub it's really easy for me to kind of %HESITATION keep up to date on my hobby which is one of my hobbies which is programming because you know it's right there it's easy
00:04:55to see now what people are talking about or something cool it just popped up because it's on get have been on there anyway so I I'm pretty happy about it because it's a it's a fun job and it's a slight I think I'd really be into if I
00:05:06didn't work there so once we want to talk about get for a second so why get get have been non SP in depot or planet material or something like that %HESITATION well get was the first distributed version control system that I really understood I played with a couple
00:05:21before and didn't really even know that's what that it was going on I'd had you stars %HESITATION the summer before and I think I had make %HESITATION use material to install the microphone as test suite by which get %HESITATION I saw the horrible to video where he kind
00:05:38of explained it in higher level terms and it really appealed to me the community aspects of the fragmentation of you know this person can for your project and they can work on it without your permission and then they can actually do something that has a lot of value
00:05:51and you didn't get in their way that was really telling me and I was also really plan to Tom Preston Werner who %HESITATION started with me and Peter Hyatt and I think we had a lot of the same ideas and we were working with each other on a
00:06:02projects well it a project and I spend like two patches and it was all is author get and I was using get %HESITATION for private projects and just seems sort of obvious that we were going to work on a site and use get because we weren't trying to
00:06:16start a coating site we are just trying to site are sort of like the hose get repositories so it was kind of a no brainer was like we had these get repositories now really love the philosophy behind get where we put them and there was we put out
00:06:28or that CZ which is still around but that's sort of a %HESITATION a single serving you just put a project and you can sort of publish it there we wanted a place we could sort of get involved in this distributed community of forking and all that sort of
00:06:40thing so that's where it kind of came from have you talked to Linus is all about get how good it may be feeling the unpopularity of get itself I haven't talked to him I'd maybe someone in get out my I'm not super involved with the gay community %HESITATION
00:06:55we have people that do that for a skeptic on who works for us is a get expert he's involved in the community he writes books on the mailing list image patches so he's more the guy that's involved with get itself %HESITATION rights may go and Tom Preston Werner
00:07:08also pretty involved in get itself but I am just a happy user really that's kind of hard to go very far looking into get and us he's got chickens name anywhere said he's pretty prevalent in the community yeah we were very lucky to to to get him early
00:07:23on M. serendipitous really the face the lines and he became a member of gab way earlier than we thought we would ever be hiring anyone outside of the founders and then that's when we started doing our %HESITATION training business where we'll do get training for big companies where
00:07:37in the city over someone is excited bucket and wants to start moving towards it will come in on his a couple classes and so we brought Scott on board and he said you know I have a class coming up can we make this a get something service got
00:07:48sick on thing we said sure who is it he said Google or like okay that that works for us they can be our first training yeah so let's talk about the the startup process I guess of of get get help them and how that all came about so
00:08:03who was your first tired and what was that like I guess the bootstrapping first parts of the the real company formation and where that Sir but I started at well our our first hired technically was Scott %HESITATION but before that Peter Hyatt Tom Preston Werner myself had kind
00:08:20of started the company in our spare time and ran it for a couple months yeah we actually Sir develop on developing it in October of those seven %HESITATION and released a beta in January of %HESITATION ate all the Batman was that we had a place to host a
00:08:36site and you can sign up if you had an invite that was where we draw the line and we launched officially in April of %HESITATION eight and all the official launch man is that we could I take your credit card number and charge you so %HESITATION in the
00:08:51early days we started making money right away in April %HESITATION but we also had jobs or we are living off our savings and it was kind of a side project thing so even that it was a little bit difficult because you're working forty hours a week somewhere else
00:09:04and you have this website that's making money and gaining traction %HESITATION so believe it or not it's actually pretty stressful because it seems like things are going well but they're not really going to direction you want because you just want to be working on get up all the
00:09:18time and from there it just kind of grew the site grew %HESITATION we started making more more money we added stuff to be more friendly to business is and %HESITATION towards the end of two thousand eight we had everything to hire Scott and we brought him on board
00:09:32and around that time we started making projections you know how much are you making in January how much room making a March given our current rate of growth and we decided around I guess %HESITATION October sometime late two thousand eight that we're gonna start taking salaries start paying
00:09:48ourselves but we were gonna do it a little bit of time so we all start out %HESITATION at ten percent of our goal salary and then every month based on the projections if we were if we hit them we would bump it up to twenty percent if we
00:10:01miss them we would maybe take a month off or make it fifteen percent and so for the next couple months we were all sort of %HESITATION watching money pretty carefully trying to do things to make sure we didn't regress in %HESITATION in the growth and given herself raises
00:10:14one step at a time until finally we all with making the salaries that we want to make so that for me is really where the business started it started at the beginning of two thousand nine we also making full salaries and that's when it really became a grown
00:10:25up business we had health insurance and all this sort of %HESITATION as benefits because you know that's that's a lot different and then %HESITATION two thousand seven working a little real happy in your apartment right so we're we're basically like a year old and the point when we
00:10:38were were ball making money yeah so based on what you just said you said you know early two thousand nice around listed just January and our engine which doesn't answer about a year old in your it was it was less than a year after lunch and we all
00:10:51started %HESITATION Tang ourselves we want to be paid answer so that was a that was that was fine that was a fun year because I'm you know during that year though I I want to stress we were all sort of living off our salaries or working other jobs
00:11:05so it wasn't really that great of a year two thousand eight even though things are on the up and up two thousand nine was a much better year I think that's one of the hard part of starting a business or be shopping a business is it's really easy
00:11:16to give up I mean at any point we could of just decided I'll you know I'm gonna take a month off and just do full time consulting work and put it up on the back burner or the couple left side really lucrative job offers that we could have
00:11:29taken and just said you know this get everything and taking off his vest I hope it as best I hoped it would so I think a lot of it has to do with for us it is just persistence I mean any time we could have we could have
00:11:40given up and stopped especially in a year living off of no money or other money but %HESITATION yeah when you're pushing yourself that's that's a big challenge when did you first are seeing higher profile open source projects move their repose over to get a well %HESITATION ruby on
00:11:56rails moved on launch day in April of all eight so that was that was the first really big one for us but %HESITATION you know we've been kind of blessed by having major open source projects the whole the whole way beta started because the %HESITATION you coulda and
00:12:11some of the murder team wanted to start rewriting murder point five I'm getting ready for warmer one point now so they started the dumber point nine branch on get how the night we launched the beta so right away we already had a pretty awesome project doing substantial development
00:12:24on get up and since then I've just been kind of hard to keep track %HESITATION know there was there's rails and then all the javascript frameworks jquery prototypes for tacky lass why you why and then from there were certain to see CakePHP symphony %HESITATION there's a couple for
00:12:40seven S. peas NBC dot net framework it's hard to keep track of two especially when you have projects that aren't you know the the the links colonel but are still really important to you are something you serve your past coming over its needs me to see we recently
00:12:53had the %HESITATION tiny MC a rich text kind of with the wig editor for HTML which I used back in the day and now it's on get have such kind of come full circle there so it just kind of incredible the amount of projects that are moving over
00:13:07both in terms of projects that have lots of %HESITATION downloads visibility %HESITATION we have %HESITATION Lange's %HESITATION OTP is on our site and closure and then other projects just you know there's lots of really cool small stuff that doesn't really get the name recognition and is a blog
00:13:21about but is is pretty solid code that's there and all it has is to get a presence and sometimes that's enough you guys actively evangelize or treat those projects to come over and they just fall the momentum %HESITATION it depends on your definition of actively evangelize recreate you
00:13:36call up and say Hey recipe data jeogori over to ever get up so we we we we have some rest a couple times but that was only after we %HESITATION we had a couple drinks and we we became friends %HESITATION in the early days we emailed a couple
00:13:49projects we said Hey check this out this would be great for you and they were set they said you know I'm not not now and no one emailed moves to get help %HESITATION but a funny thing happened is about ninety nine percent of ninety percent of the projects
00:14:02we came out in the early days eventually came over to get out and so we decided that there's just no point in us evangelizing the site what's better for us is to evangelize get you know you know we're gonna get literature and books and screen cast now sort
00:14:16of thing which one to do the whole time anyway and %HESITATION we found that the best way to get people to use our site is to make the site really awesome so we focus on making the site really awesome and so far that has been the %HESITATION the
00:14:27thing that brings over the big ticket items not to mention also focusing on the user happens I guess that does make fall into making the site more awesome is user happiness and if you have an army of loyalists as a good friend of mine and I don't think
00:14:39case as if you have an army loyalists that %HESITATION costly evangelize for you they do your job you know you'll have to that study's true we %HESITATION I mean we get a lot of that that's that's the thing is if you're gonna try and have someone switched something
00:14:53as personal as version control from what they're used to what they like what's not getting in their way something new and maybe a little bit harder to learn and it's totally radical it's not going to be some rails programmer on Twitter it's gonna be one of the friends
00:15:07or someone that they trust so there's really almost no point in us evangelizing at this point it's much easier for us to you know like I said make the site really good make people really excited about the site including ourselves and then get to those people to tell
00:15:18their friends about it or tell their boss or tell their co workers are saying I think that's absolutely right you know there's that we cover the open source side again had %HESITATION on this podcast but I know Adam and I both to client work and that's one of
00:15:30the stipulations I have to take on a project is your source control has to be a get out because I'm not gonna go back to the subversion oral yeah that's our homework and if you're not using get like to get out of here no pun intended it does
00:15:44seem odd this is where a lot of the the claims Americans come from because you say that you said I want to work with you know you can get and to subversion user or to another version control use and they see that as arrogance but I get user
00:15:56just use that as now of course what I want to use the version that's insane I just it's just a matter of fact it's just there's so many things that you that you want to do is get that you can do that you just can't do with the
00:16:06version of your your work flow completely changes like night and day yeah and it's I think it's a it's a very nice tool people complain about gets user interface and say it's confusing I think maybe some of the commands are confusing but things like just automatically paging to
00:16:19get logged output and color rising death off the bat I think that's what makes a nice user interface it it thinks about the person using the tool and not always impressed me taking SP and logging getting every revision and just seeing like are one in my terminal that
00:16:32doesn't seem like a good user interface to me but an emerging is light years ahead and get it compared to anything else I've used and it's just it's amazing how well it handles merging two two files yes it is really good at handling situations where you don't really
00:16:47know what you're up against and they might be multiple remotes multiple contributors you have different patches ran against different Bob masters and it's really good at you know trying to resolve the changes or telling you exactly what went wrong and then you fix it yourself yeah that's a
00:17:00good segue into probably one of my favorite get hub features and that's the four Q. you talk about how that came about in an and just how that developed the fork you there there unless there's a big list of things that we've wanted to have since day one
00:17:16%HESITATION meantime TJ pretty good friends so we we we would we hang out outside of work outside of the hobby time you know and we went to eat dinner drink it we talk about what we want forget hub in the future and two of the biggest things early
00:17:28on where %HESITATION jest and the four Q. could not the idea behind a fork you %HESITATION hooks with for anyone that's not familiar is you can go to a page on a repository that you alone are you alright access to and you can see a list of all
00:17:44the commits in your network that are unique so if ifor to your projects and I made a comment but I didn't even tell you about it and I push it to get help you would see that commit in your fork you and you can then examine the commit
00:17:56you can see what I did you can leave a comment on it or you could check a box and you can have that commit it applies cleanly apply directly to your master or some other branch on your repository so in this way you can kind of emerge changes
00:18:08from from your iPhone if you want or you can sort of review changes that people are just experimenting with or kind of %HESITATION help them out if you see them making things that you don't think it is right or if they're not using the right message even before
00:18:20they come ask you for help so you can really be proactive about being a contributor if you want to take that control and like I said the best part of it though is being able to merge and changes that apply cleanly right from the web interface ultimately documentation
00:18:32fixes little changes %HESITATION you know if you even have your project hooked up to a service like run code run which will run your test suite on commit you can apply changes from the site %HESITATION on the four Q. and then see if they pass or not on
00:18:45the continuous integration server which is pretty cool so that is very awesome so the %HESITATION apply cleanly and and will not apply cleanly it is that built in to get or do you guys have to build some features around that that's a we had a lot of features
00:18:58on the four Q. that a forty was entirely production of Scotch account we %HESITATION when we brought him on board we actually saw her first hiring talks with him where us discussing how would you implement this idea we have these random written but not random disconnected repositories that
00:19:14are desperate on the site and they have unique commits when when applied into each other we want to see if they work is that they don't work how would you do that and I was kind of his interview I guess without him knowing it and he explained it
00:19:24to us and we had no idea what you just said so we decide to hire him and implements and %HESITATION yeah a lot of the stuff is is pretty interesting %HESITATION the biggest problem with the fork you is that it uses %HESITATION cherry pick which basically takes the
00:19:37death of a command and applies it on top of your current had %HESITATION so that way the shot changes that heritage changes and all that sort of thing quitting the commit time what that means is that the the other really cool sort of community feature of get hub
00:19:50of the network craft doesn't work right now with the four Q. is a network graph works all based on merges it's forty words based on cherry pick so we're kind of still on yeah there's lots of stuff we have to do right into our site kind of odd
00:20:01piece it's %HESITATION get together to get the functionality we want but it's actually not that hard when you have someone like Scott who understands how it works it's all just a matter of time and %HESITATION implementation talk a bit about the open source projects you guys have had
00:20:18the release along the way just a power get hurt people for a moment how sure we've %HESITATION we've been releasing open source projects on we have to get out of the whole time since the beginning probably before the first day really %HESITATION because we are all get open
00:20:32source developers and it just kind of what you do the first only release probably was great which is our our our ruby %HESITATION bindings to get and originally it would just do a fork in exacting just return a string from a command so if you want to see
00:20:45%HESITATION I get commit log message you would I just run you know get commit and scrape out the the message and %HESITATION you know it works and in the early days it was enough but then once I started getting more popular that turned out to be a really
00:20:59slow approach and so what's got did was really meant lots of get itself in ruby for us within the great library and that's all open source and you can check that out so that's kind of a big our first big library because it enabled us to build get
00:21:12hub it enabled us to kind of %HESITATION do these major changes to correct like for instance rewriting it from for exact to actually using file read that sort of thing without having to change the webapp or our jobs or any that sort of thing so that's been a
00:21:26real life saver I mean we have an easy just to throw the get calls in there originally but that would have definitely been a pain in the long run so great was a good decision early on we released on a little young jquery plugins %HESITATION sophomore release take
00:21:39it about complex get how the other ones we kind of just a released on our own the other the next big project the release was get up services is actually a part of get have itself when you make a push there's a post receive hook that get runs
00:21:52and so %HESITATION because we don't people running you know code on our server that's on trusted what we do is we will you to make a left hook to a U. R. L. of your choice with adjacent payload representing the push or if you have your own service
00:22:07that is able to %HESITATION consume get help web look you can write your own service and %HESITATION what that is it's a little Sinatra apt plugin thingy and then what we'll do is listed on the site people can enable what's a for instance if you have campfire and
00:22:22you want to get your push notifications in your campfire chat room you can turn on the camp fire service and type in your username and talk and all that stuff into work and so the actual get up services a campfire I RC all those things are all open
00:22:33source so many cases we had people %HESITATION like any point on his cheeks freckle where they consider their own service up for their service and we were able to roll out into the site and that's really awesome for us because a lot of times we'll have people saying
00:22:46usually support freckle you should really support capital tracker and we don't use the toll it I mean if you don't use a tool it's not gonna be as good as it would be if the maintainer where someone actively used it so we don't use people tracker for instance
00:22:59even though it's a good project so the people tracker hope we never really be that great %HESITATION we would really know what broke it just wouldn't be a good %HESITATION kind of display of get up and I think what's more get how they should know better display is
00:23:10making an open source of people can either since it themselves or if they don't even know ruby we can kind of say here's the calculation is doing to the API change and work with them and everyone kind of has the same thing in our site which is the
00:23:21code the project is really I next anyone and then %HESITATION some of the other big ones we have are Jekyll which is Tom Preston Werner static site generator and it's actually integrated into get help so we have this %HESITATION one of these other things we always wanted to
00:23:34do was static static site hosting which we call pages and so %HESITATION you can put your index HTML whatever you want into a repository either stand alone or in a special magic branch called DH pages and what we'll do is we'll publish the the XML and all the
00:23:50assets in everything %HESITATION as a static site so it'll be fast it'll be whatever exactly what you want to be but if you want to use it for publishing a blog we actually run it through Jekyll so you can go to pay just talking about comedy to skip
00:24:04there you follow a few conventions give us a special lay out that sort of thing will turn your dot mark down a dark thought textile %HESITATION posts into HTML just the way you would want to publish it either as a static site publisher on your own or through
00:24:17repressed and like that so we have a ton of logs from hackers hosted again which is pretty cool and not just because one of the biggest projects and get help people forget to add features they you know fix bugs and that's because they know it's it's being %HESITATION
00:24:31run when they push and running their blogs and get out and you know they could have said they want which is pretty awesome if you think about it from her perspective because you know it's a lot of the problems I had with sites like wordpress and whatever is
00:24:43I can't modify them or I can modify them after paying the money so I definitely I much rather just go build my mind this huge ten thousand line system on my own then pay them five Bucks a month to modify the CSS and so being having Jack open
00:24:55source is pretty cool %HESITATION I used for my blogs to suddenly I am instead exciting for awhile but I finally switched Jekyll because it's easier yeah offer a fuser Evangelista right like as if everybody is using something that's already I get help like tackle it started the source
00:25:11and they're always putting the you know the fort Meade badge in the top right now always putting %HESITATION you know tributes back to the Jekyll reports always gonna drive more more traffic back to back to get up yeah that's true but %HESITATION you know I think we really
00:25:26think of it that way though because you can to try and do user vandalism actively you can have the forty badges and you can have sort of like an open source Jekyll but people are gonna care if it's all crap so I think the more important thing is
00:25:37maybe something really really good and then in the spare time trying to put together a little bit of user vandals and stuff to let them do what they want with it so I can forgive badges didn't take more than an afternoon for Tom are for me I get
00:25:49out the edges but you know the thing that took all the time was making pages really really good one of the cool things about pages that people don't realize is now we had a time last year we had lots of downtime in our site was always crashing it
00:26:00was because of our some of our data storage problems but throughout that time pages was always still out because it was a different machine it was engine acts it was all cashed it was all static so ghetto itself would be down and flailing by your blog would just
00:26:12be running fine and no would notice and even on the current set up that's how it is now we have things started such a way that if you know the the web that falls over your pages will be fine in the probably still generate so so I got
00:26:23up and I saw a segue into into those trials and tribulations of switching hosts is are is are possible you could talk about the the transition in the relationship ending with engine yard in what what that took you into with Rackspace and what I can about yeah sure
00:26:39%HESITATION we've we posted about all of it on our blog there as you know there's so many reasons going into it we used engine yard since almost the very beginning %HESITATION without lots a great relationship for those people over there especially people like you know you who to
00:26:52an address and analysts there there's a lot of really smart really awesome people over engineered and they are able to recognize I guess %HESITATION you know up and coming projects interview world really well when get up is still just a baby really day they saw they last onto
00:27:10it and they really want to help make it something great they're really behind the idea of get they're really into the future of our open source and I think that really invested in you know open source in ruby making sure that ruby continues to be like an open
00:27:23source community even though they're a for profit company so we we were part of that for a long time we had a good relationship with them %HESITATION Randall Thomas over there took great care of us and is a pretty cool guy and then %HESITATION eventually came to a
00:27:36point where we decided on our own that we didn't wanna run on %HESITATION virtualize hardware anymore really and no engine yard can host us on our own machines in without virtualisation but that's not really their business and it's like yes you can do is the version import to
00:27:54get hub bite we're not gonna keep two way you know just just go to subversion house to pretty much it was downhill so for us we want to find a host that you know was designed to deal with the set up that we wanted to move to and
00:28:09you know it's not engineered we wrote them an email we talk to them they said yeah we understand that works for both of us really well Leon talk about a migration strategy they helped us by dumping all the repose on to %HESITATION databases which we then flew to
00:28:23Virginia for a new a very important you know kind of a sneaker net operation and %HESITATION yeah so then I Rackspace things are really great we are were over we have too many machines right now which is good we are we have way too much power and %HESITATION
00:28:38we've got a pretty good relationship with those people and we have an anchor which is a company down in Australia doing their support for us so Rackspace handles the hardware in income anchor handles the software so it's really great to have someone who is really really invested in
00:28:52interested in you know software %HESITATION systems administration so now we're we're all set up with with puppet and all that sort of thing and the guys at anchor are you know they have checklists and all these sort of procedures in place is very professional on people on call
00:29:07twenty four seven and they're always there to help us out in cases of problems so it's really great because engineer provide a lot of that too we had sort of an engineer chat room where private get out engineer chat room and there is a problem that any hour
00:29:18of the day you can go in there you can say Hey something's busted and that's kind of the appeal of engine yard is they always have people around that are familiar with the set up because of the set of second very similar and that's what you bought that
00:29:28you pay for %HESITATION and so we didn't really want to lose that because that's that's really one of the most often think about engine yard anchors really help that never really stepped it up and it's a really good people down there Matt Palmer Womble as a totally have
00:29:40led with Tom the rear protecting a site and it's just been fabulous since then so I think the engine yard and Rackspace move just boils down to like finding the right tool for the job you know engineered knows that they mean even trying to advertise that they that
00:29:55they do what we want and so it just seems like a good fit wears Rackspace that's their whole business right there or at least most of it now they're trying to do the US are moving into the cloud space which any artist too so that's interesting because I
00:30:05guess now that they're more competitors in the used to be but %HESITATION you know for us is mainly about dedicated hardware and control over exactly what hardware we have only get in that sort of thing let's talk about the %HESITATION the very extremely short tagline that %HESITATION they
00:30:20get help has which is just social coding can you talk about that and where they came from sure I think it %HESITATION it we had a couple time lines I think this one best reflects everything the whole universe the first the first couple taglines were just something like
00:30:33get co hosting and then I think it was it get get repository hosting some like that because that's that's really what it was at the time that's we wanted to be as we were advertising says Hey if you use get come to get help because we can host
00:30:46your stuff and I was sort of the %HESITATION the origin of the site and then after that when we started realizing what was going on and the sort of %HESITATION how this collaboration stuff is actually working much better than we had hoped or thought it would we turned
00:30:59into social co hosting I think because that you know we were starting to get compared to Facebook and myspace and all this sort of you know gibber jabber with the web two point now social sphere so we had a social conditioning and finally Tom in PJ decided that
00:31:15they didn't like that tagline because it gave the little sort of a tail needed housing shorter and in a moment of inspiration they came up with star for coding which kind of perfectly explains what it was about is not even really about the hosting anymore because that's kind
00:31:30of you know you can get hosting anywhere probably for free it's more about the social ness and just actually coding not any sort of a really like politics there organizational stuff for higher keys and all that sort of procedure that you find in other organizations that do open
00:31:48source stuff we just it's about killing really just throwing killed up there and working on someone else's code and that sort of thing we wanted really to be about code and people more than projects and organizations so too big aspects of that social coding philosophy is following users
00:32:06and you're watching repose were those just no brainer features out of the box or have this come about yeah I think those were just %HESITATION we never it's funny I don't know I don't have an answer that we just added them because it seemed like what would be
00:32:21the point of the site if you didn't have those things %HESITATION I mean originally the dashboard wasn't really %HESITATION like a internal you call it a Facebook style feed %HESITATION or really like a Twitter feed with different event types it wasn't like that originally it was just you
00:32:35know here's some repositories that you have that you're right you're watching that have had updates recently and you know here's information about the repository and it was very %HESITATION you know to the point and then we made it a little bit more kind of like stream of consciousness
00:32:48fire hose and that's when we realized a lot of the social aspects really come into play because now we had this place we could show you stuff that's going on a lot of stuff really quickly a lot of different types of stuff and %HESITATION I think watching and
00:33:00following kind of %HESITATION necessitated that because you know I'll let you know I want to see what Thomas following I want to see what is watching and the the dashboard really let you do that in some instances and %HESITATION yeah that's that's really where it came from but
00:33:14watching and following doesn't just always been there and we've always had to distinguish when we always think between the terms because otherwise without it we get confusing if you watch people and about the Tories sure so do you think the four term means on on get out to
00:33:31be %HESITATION popularly forts as the exportgate had tab shows is there a certain point where being for too much maybe %HESITATION exposing some flaws in your particular project or how do you see that well I think it depends on a lot of right now force all waited across
00:33:47get hub fairly equally so if I forgot project and I make no commit to doing nothing I don't anything unique that's pretty much seen as the same as someone who has a fork where he writes functionality for the better and some it's a back and gets it included
00:34:01in the land mines and so I think one of things we want to do in the coming year and the future was get out is sort of a focus on working in a way may force that have unique content a force that are good more prominent and make
00:34:12for senator are you know have no unique content less prominent especially old ones just to get them out of the internet user interface and get them out of the network grass get them out of everywhere I mean in our craft in the four Q. already do a good
00:34:25job of that you don't see force that don't have anything unique in them live in other places like the popular forks and in a little odd network count in the repository information or the network tab itself account there still see how many forks are so I think that's
00:34:39one of things I would like to us to change I want fourteen to be about contributing more than just clicking a button which is now but obviously cooking counting iBook at the button is an easier technical problem then tell me who actually as a viable fork but now
00:34:52we have resources and people that's one of the things you want to focus on you know how how how active is a project based on commits not just people working at that sort of thing and so I think for things like homebrew you're gonna see that this is
00:35:04a product that has a ton of super active force because people are contributing formula and that sort of thing but for a project like rails you know you maybe you'll see as many forks as there are now because it's so popular that they're just you know they just
00:35:18have to be a bunch of force people made intending make a patch that never panned out they're still gonna be a ton of course but I think the more popular project is like rails the less force are gonna have something substantial on it I mean I even for
00:35:28projects intending sometimes to contribute to them and nothing ever happens and I end up deleting them later for I think why did I or fork that you know that that happens in the system just has to be set up to deal with that but I think it I
00:35:39think we can do that yeah that's one of the things we discussed on on on the last show is oftentimes now with moving to get the believe project for a particular for because basically the one of the most momentum and that's kind of a challenge when you find
00:35:53it a project again have the sometimes you may stumble upon a project and it's affordable for her fork and so just following the forgery back to the original and then trying to look at the fifty two weeks participation just to see you know where's the momentum for this
00:36:07particular project is is often a challenge yeah I I use it to the network after that stuff because even on the fourth of the fork you'll be able to see if the %HESITATION the upstream route has four momentum by that's yeah that's something you shouldn't have to do
00:36:21that's something that should just be obvious and I think you wanna make the networks a little more cohesive and in the future too and sort of say like when you hit that fork of a fork and a fork say Hey your in %HESITATION defunct slash rescue network you
00:36:34know %HESITATION Adam stacks life rescue is the is the blast for right now so even though I might have been my recall one point and I'd I %HESITATION publicized it and I was the contributor are the main maintainer now it's passed on to Adam static and that's real
00:36:48Mendham is and get a table to detect that because it's really not that complicated we just need to to detect it and show it and I think that would be really awesome for people is to say like Hey you're here but this doesn't matter as much as this
00:37:00one which you might be looking for or any no if you land on the fourth of a fork in it tells you that you can you know compare you know what's the difference between this pork and %HESITATION the upstream and kind of get an idea of what's going
00:37:12on that way too which I think would also be cool we're talking about the social aspects of get help dot com and what's going on there how has the explosion of social media and the is this you know cost real time connection between developers of for example when
00:37:26we had %HESITATION Nathan was about %HESITATION and Chris I've seen the core contributors to Hamel says encompass we had them on the pockets was actually very first broadcast from changelog we had a month they said one of the one of the biggest things that helped their project was
00:37:40was the activity on Twitter how has that impacted get up well forgive itself since the very first days we were using some miser at the time demise just to see what people are saying about get up weather was good or bad because it's you know it's so much
00:37:55easier to tweet how what the heck separate get hubs log in screen is broken than it is to find out what the support email addresses you know email it or make a count on the support helpdesk announcer things we got lots of good feedback from Twitter in that
00:38:09way we have %HESITATION you know able to see projects are being publicized really easily because people you know the truth about Iraq and about how many are al and we can see that get passed around were able to see tutoriales a blog post that pop up talking might
00:38:21get hubs because it's in the name of the title or something like that and it pops up on Twitter under the search and you know even when we do an employee or we make a new blog post a lot of times when the blood because I'll get to
00:38:33comments but I'll be tweeted about you know thirty times and so it's a lot more useful for us now just to look at what people are saying on Twitter than it is to depend on it to make a common sight because that's that's where it's happening anyway whether
00:38:44we're looking or not so you know it's really up to you I think if you're trying to do like a bishop business or you have an open source project to be proactive about finding that stuff because you know what the hammer guys and sass people are talking about
00:38:55that stuff whether they're watching or not so they can either use it to their advantage and help shape the project or help improve things like I don't know someone says camels documentation sucks because they couldn't find acts no that's not a duty for them to fix that there
00:39:06%HESITATION whereas before they would just be thinking you know no one ever complains about him as documentation so it must be good enough and you know we do that same thing constantly every day people are checking Twitter you know I'm sure people have different %HESITATION schedules I check
00:39:17it normally towards the evening I just sort of read what's going on to get a feel for what was happening that day %HESITATION either with the site itself and with the ecosystem around the site doesn't everybody does or that's just something you do I'm sure everyone does it
00:39:31a lot %HESITATION yeah we're I mean we're all used Twitter a lot so yeah it's really interesting to see what we were saying about it and that sort of things so yeah I mean if anyone mentions get help on Twitter it's a good chance someone I get hot
00:39:43is going to read that %HESITATION and I mean we don't all read all of them because it's gotten to the point where I mean Twitter so they can get help is getting big and there's just a lot of sweets especially in other languages but yeah I mean especially
00:39:55the early days we did lots of %HESITATION lots of support stuff that way we still deal with what people complain on Twitter the something is broken and then we'll use a get account on Twitter to at reply to them and trying to figure out what's wrong or trying
00:40:06to more information and help people that way and we had a couple times a couple really bad incidents %HESITATION last year our DNS provider went down and so we get a dot com which is a race from the face of the universe and one of the things we
00:40:21did was we posted out like a a work around the temporary work arounds %HESITATION Sims so at your I. T. hosts and I was a kid I was extracted and I think probably Olympics one and people are complaining on Twitter about getting down and we were able to
00:40:35write a little script so if %HESITATION anyone had a complaint with the and ask it up whatever we could send them a link as an Arab plan on Twitter to the facts and so that was pretty awesome so we end up sending out I don't know an annoying
00:40:47amount of tweets three hundred four tweets in an afternoon all with the same content you like check this link to fix it but actually working for a lot of people and help them get around the DNS outage and get some stuff done so look for things like that
00:40:58I mean I guess she sees a social media process mainly just Twitter is is is pretty crazy I mean we check I find Twitter more reliable for funny blog post about get hot and that sort of thing than I than I do like Google blog search or anything
00:41:10like that Takoradi %HESITATION Twitter simply where it's all out and same thing for projects I mean it's if you have a project pecan unique enough name you can either search for the name on its own or you know your username slash the project name and see people see
00:41:22what people are saying about it but that I think a lot of times when you have a smaller project it is more just you go surfing that it is something anything else I mean we have a small project on get hard and it's just you and maybe %HESITATION
00:41:35couple watchers even a couple hundred watchers a lot of people are going to know what to do they're gonna know to go to your issue tracker they're gonna get a review to look at the issue tracker the gonna look for mailing lists and when they have a complaint
00:41:46with the project something won't work they're gonna go to the mailing list and try and make it work or you know Google a bloodless and try to make it work %HESITATION I don't think you see a lot of Twitter complaints that kind of stuff but when you have
00:41:57a product or a website or company I think it's a lot easier just want to say you know because you're just saying isn't broken you're saying screw get hub residue using one of Adam's projects is broken you're saying screw Adam so I think it's a lot easier for
00:42:08people to kind of critique %HESITATION website a product on Twitter than it is for them to do that same thing with an open source project that has like in a single man here owner and you know I get has also given another response to that type of strolling
00:42:21into the amount of complaints about free open source software just never ceases to amaze me but now you have the ability to say forget simple request in how it's just that easy right and it really is %HESITATION I mean because we do that to each other to even
00:42:36in our company someone complain and some will say well you know you know it's a poor class and I usually ends the conversation yeah already taken from their right like if you can fix the problem to complain about it just do your job yeah exactly and on I
00:42:51but I've always contributed open source but I'm you know a lot of times sometimes I'll just add features or fix a bug that I wouldn't matter otherwise just because you know I have my to help work flow down Pat and it's really easy for me to to forget
00:43:04and conservative pads and that's kind of the goal is to get that way with as many people as as we can let's talk about that for a moment so we talked about you know watchers and and the the projects that you followed on night get hub you Adam
00:43:18and I often talk about the best way to find the the folks and and their projects to follow in open source and usually that means get help you know what's the best way to gauge someone's participation even if they may not be you know the actors organizer of
00:43:33a particular project how can you gauge someone's participation with patches and and commits across get a I think one of the things that I like about your job is that it doesn't try to be everything is not trying to be the entire world of open source %HESITATION I
00:43:47think alike or sing with winter a lot of getting users probably most of them have Twitter accounts and so we don't want to have you leave Twitter to tweet about open source in a hundred forty characters last on get help exclusively forget of users you know we don't
00:44:02want to add a Twitter component to get hub that's just for you talking about whatever and maybe will do updates for repositories he considers any release but not in the way that Twitter just like you've just communicate openly because because Twitter already exists and I think what you
00:44:18have to do is work really well with winter and I think what should also do %HESITATION and and sort of a way of finding you know what's the the the canonical Capistrano repository right now is it your work with Google we should have a ways to promote the
00:44:31most active fork in Google to be the first search results on from within get up and so what I really wanted to do is sort of a plaintive ecosystem of what people are already doing you've already contributing party making patches you've already doing this stuff you know how
00:44:46can we either have them do it and get up to make it easier or how can we kind of look into it like with the service sucks and I sort of think so for finding out someone's you know a worse I guess an open source or not the
00:44:56words would just how their weight how active they are I think get has one part of it and we wanted to we wanted to put more stuff on the profile to say you know you go to a defense and you see he does ruby python and Java scripts
00:45:08primarily because we detected that for my projects and he's contributed to these projects and so I can have you know J. query such a query on my profile even though I don't own it because I submitted a patch and accepted it nothing to be really awesome because if
00:45:20you want to be you know like a rails contributor or something like that we can show you know this guy is not commit access he doesn't own the project he's contributed fourteen patches that I've been accepted to the rails or something like that which I think I mean
00:45:32that's what it's all about is is just doing coat it's not about you know collecting %HESITATION badges or karma or getting up those or down votes it's about getting your patch accepted or rejected and we really want to base your sort of %HESITATION your beer merry and get
00:45:47help on that sort of thing so I think the ways to do right now is just the kind of you know check what they've been doing on Google check when they been doing on Twitter and then check what they've been doing on get how would they be forking
00:45:58who were they following one of those people into and sort of Dick around that way and ideally I think we like to provide a show you a lot more that information right there just this person has done these things and they're awesome weather not any plans to link
00:46:11a Twitter account your public profile and get up %HESITATION I don't know that it's never come up maybe Jr I don't talk a lot about the updates for for the Tories because it be useful to say you know check out this version of this I mean you might
00:46:25see a tag but is that really good enough on maybe it is maybe it isn't but that's kind of on the drawing board for now but for on users I don't know that's that's a good that's a good question you know it's funny because when the site started
00:46:37in your profile we had a little %HESITATION the very very early days there was a spot for you but like your name your company and instead of your U. R. L. or R. homepage you just said blog and I think it's as blog slash homepage and we thought
00:46:50it was like well everyone get out is gonna have a blog but even even as late as two thousand seven I think we are we are going to release another thing I think you're wrong it's just a Twitter account right should have been when you sign to get
00:47:01up when you go to any profile put gives your Twitter account and then you know we'll do some cool stuff but that in the future just you know just your your username but yeah I think that would be pretty interesting because a lot of times I see someone
00:47:13will have as their blog homepage just their tutor you are out and you go to that and not have as their Twitter U. R. L. as their as their homepage still have to get a counseling on this little circle and so I think yeah I think it's pretty
00:47:24cool if we could tie into it a lot a lot more that would be useful I mean because I use those sites a lot for open source stuff and I'll be pretty cool gotcha so we just turn a new leaf we have %HESITATION this brand new year come
00:47:35up it's two thousand ten and it seems like everybody's made this list of reservations are gonna do this year on whether taking their company or they just had this two thousand ten planning meeting and they rely on their goals what are get helps priorities right now for two
00:47:50thousand ten and what's in here extreme focus you know we don't it's it's always the same thing it's been we don't make a lot of plans would only allow long term plans because you know if I had tried to plan five years ago what I'd be doing now
00:48:02I would have it would just been a miserable failure and if I had stuck to that plan I would not be talking to guys today probably so what we try to focus on is really just making the site policy making a site good fixing bugs adding awesome new
00:48:14features one of things are really proud about our company is we can have a whole future almost ready to go and if we decide that it's not worth it or it's gonna take the company a bad direction will just scrap it and we've done that a couple times
00:48:25with some pretty major things and I think when you're when you're planning and you have a lot of like really eat solid deadlines for no reason it's really easy to get trapped in a like a what we need this done next week so when we just push it
00:48:37out anyway because otherwise on this our one our next week deadline but you know we don't do that and it's it's great weight with things are done when they're ready things are not when they're good %HESITATION were constantly trying to improve things we are we can allocate time
00:48:50you know we want to revisit the API later this year and then you know make it even better and add more features a trending in that sort of thing but it don't know in the short term it's all about making this big in the future that is better
00:49:02and adding new features are really useful to people so that's what we're trying to do this year as far as growing the business I'm I mean and we would want to hire a couple of people maybe %HESITATION we hired four people last year they're all amazing and so
00:49:15things are going really well right that right there and I think we just want to just keep growing the site in a direction strong you know the stuff about having a fork at that has you unique commits be weighted higher than four without on and things like that
00:49:28we've been talking about since day one we want to do that and %HESITATION just make it seem really obvious and so that's that's really the plan to make this a really good make sure we still love using the site you know fix any pain points in that sort
00:49:38of thing and just concentrate on you know the rise of get I don't think that %HESITATION this year or even probably next year will be the year that get pieces because you know the version and everything else is just so unbelievably massive and get it still has a
00:49:52really young ecosystem the whole idea should be diverse control is right now you know different and scary to people and so we just want to be ready one like all these people start coming over and start seeing the value of it we want to be there we wanna
00:50:05make it really easy wanna make a newbie friendly and we wanna make it really good and so that's what we're trying to focus on so your home is as a hundred eighty thousand cutters and get a how many repose proximally %HESITATION repose I don't know %HESITATION independent you
00:50:20slice I think overall is about three hundred fifty thousand maybe maybe four hundred and then %HESITATION you know not that many force maybe a hundred and twenty thousand forks out of that %HESITATION this is love public stuff so yeah I mean we've got a pretty good ratio of
00:50:34repose to to users right now which is pretty awesome so we are we've always the all been enjoying the new you are that's been coming out of Kyle %HESITATION what's a I remember actually looking at this article resumes on thirty seven signals that there was a guest blog
00:50:51of you talking about the early days of get hub and a river I just look at the screen shot of the old view of a return of the lord what is that and it's only been about maybe a month and a half now since the new the new
00:51:04you as been a place for the repose but how has that impacted the %HESITATION I guess just overall user experience of get abusers I mean you tell me I think from our perspective we went from people talking about how good get have is how much they like it
00:51:21or how much they hate it and you know those sort of things to now we've added a new class of of of jabber which is just like it's so beautiful like I love the new you why I just love the way it looks I just wanna lick it
00:51:33and that sort of thing self school and gets that's that's really awesome for us is to not just have like a really great type people are really into but have a site that a lot of people really like we also people tell us they they hate the you
00:51:44live by %HESITATION that's kind of Kyle was kind of waiting for the first haters because that's how you know you did a really good job with anything really Nassau his reply on the blog post like at a time though I did my job because you don't like it
00:51:56and it's true we were I mean for a long time get how there was a lack of criticism and it was really strained worry us because we thought it was a mediocre but then it all came flooding in it with a much more confident found out by that
00:52:07because I know that %HESITATION Tom was a he's the you I got out of the team right he was %HESITATION Tom Preston Werner was the original designer and needed the logo and all the only help all the designs and we brought in Kyle and Tom is the CTO
00:52:23so he's really been moving in more of a technical direction and that's what he wants so when we moved from engineer to Rackspace we also did a lot of art re architecting of our site we changed a lot of the ways in which we store data and Tom
00:52:36kinda like that he was in charge of nobody libraries again into the site making sure the webapp needed as few changes possible making sure it still runs well and are get a firewall installed which is the downloadable version you can run and so Tom has been moving in
00:52:50a more technical directional time he's always been great at both he works as a developer for many many years and he worked as a designer designed for many many years as well but I think right now on the site as technically challenging is get hub %HESITATION he's gonna
00:53:02really that take over the city overall and helpless in the direction to go to which is dealing with terabytes of data and hundreds of thousands of millions of users in that sort of thing sell anything he's a static and empower really well together house in a great job
00:53:16in Tom's able to focus on when he's really really interested in and that they would talk about get help for a long time maybe we can talk about %HESITATION just you for just a second you know I guess wrapped up in all this is is you Tom and
00:53:29PJ and and some of the new hires to but only Scott what not but you guys have all been leading this and you said in a previous chat you guys are all of you have to be Superman how can you be Superman in the in a small income
00:53:40you like you are going in a profitable state and still keep up your hobby and run the business how do you do that %HESITATION I mean when you say like that it sounds a lot more incredible than it really is this is really this is just a job
00:53:54if you think about it and that's kinda you have to treat when you get up in the morning you have to have time when you're not at work you have to you know take a shower do whatever you do in your daily routine making coffee and you're not
00:54:05at work and you can be thinking about a cool feature article idea but that's what you should be doing a job anywhere you can't let it kind of take over in that regard and you get to work and then you just focus I mean %HESITATION you don't focus
00:54:17for eight hours a day just like you to do that you don't do that in your in your normal job and you don't have the best day of your life everyday by one of the advantages and one of the things that I think you have to be good
00:54:28at is if you get on a roll but let's say you had a horrible day and you didn't get anything done until four PM you don't even know your morning when you start getting into a groove around four and five and you may contest has that sort of
00:54:41thing I mean I think with our team and with small team is really important the ability to stay on task until you know for two AM until you finish what you're working on and until you're really really happy with it is probably the most important trait is just
00:54:55to have just it just to know when you need to focus is not focusing all the time or anything like that but knowing when you need to focus and we need to get things done knowing when something is done and just doing everything so that is good not
00:55:06half **** and stuff like that I think that's what's really important for our small team and you know that that is really hard because you can't work still to a an everyday and otherwise just get burned out and then you know the next day you're supercouples all messed
00:55:18up but I think being able to identify and kind of build your day around you know in the morning I'm gonna do this like us support work and that's gonna do not require long periods of time and attention and then in the afternoon I'm gonna have a meeting
00:55:31and I'm gonna work on this feature kind the back burner and then tomorrow when I have mostly they open at someone to spend the whole day crushing this really huge feature that we've been working and I'd really like to work on it today because we're behind on it
00:55:42but you know I can I can schedule my time so that I could just work on tomorrow and it'll be worth it that's kind of bored right yeah absolutely yeah I'm pushing back so much stuff right now but yeah I think I think that the Superman partisan for
00:55:56being able to do everything %HESITATION it's just being able to know like what needs to get done in a small company and I mean I think the most important thing there isn't and you're out working till two am because your boss is telling you just need to get
00:56:07done tomorrow did you have to recognize what is important because when you're a small team you can have babysitting you want your job you can't be managing you know a team when there's only eight people on that they only to be pulling the full weight and they need
00:56:20to be able to be self starters and be self motivated in a way and you know one of the great things about not having an office for so long is that we found people that can work at home alone you know just like Kyle coming because I look
00:56:32pretty and then like two months later he comes back and it's amazing we need people like that and that's really what you need to help had it is really hard to find this kind of people but I think once you do it's it shows in the product and
00:56:43we've been working very hard to find as people I think we did a good job of it absolutely so passion is where it all comes from I think so I think it might be that but I think that I think what it is for a lot of us
00:56:53is that we use the site and it's not even passion about loving working on the site it's that I don't want to settle you know I don't want to build something that I'm gonna use that I'm not gonna like so it's gonna be crappy just don't even bother
00:57:07with it only spend the time on it to make it really good and in a lot of cases let's say you work on something for two weeks you know it might only be an extra two days to make it really really pop and that isn't always worth it
00:57:19it's always worth it and I think that's what it's about is to make you something for yourself that you want to use and I don't even know that passion and just being practical and a lot of ways they I don't wanna have broken stuff and if it's up
00:57:31to me if I'm the one reason that is broken or not broken then you know there's only one real option there I need to make it not broken I think people are seem feel the same way that kind of leads us into this other larger question I want
00:57:44to ask before we start telling the softphone with no pun intended for a later conversation but I wanted to ask you about this I mean many have said you know kind of just sat back and all but your ability to fund this business without BC and yeah I'm
00:58:01sure that so many people ask this question whenever you're king noting or speaking at a conference like how did you guys truly go and build get have dot com without any VC finally what does it take to do that and how did you do it %HESITATION well we
00:58:15had a lot of help from people %HESITATION France and and you're like I said early on helped us out a lot of ways they did a cover hosting and that sort of thing so when we were growing you know they were really there supporting us and it helps
00:58:29to have a partner because or someone someone else co founders because I'm like I said it would be easy to say I'm gonna take a month off just focusing consulting full time it's not easy to let yourself down and someone else so you can't really say that if
00:58:43you have someone else is working on every weekend you can you kind of need to hear any sort of shame or guilt they're gonna feel like well you know Tom is working on this is a work on this for about four weeks now than anything I really need
00:58:55to catch up I really need to work on this or maybe I shouldn't take off for four weeks that sort of thing so yeah I think a lot of it was being in the right place at the right time we were just building a site for ourselves that
00:59:05we wanted to use and we have done that a hundred times before we built between the th meantime PJ and even if you wanna kind of people the company now Brian trial tech a less on Scott you know we all build stuff countless number of times for ourselves
00:59:19and with the same philosophy that I'm sure you guys have you know I'm gonna go to myself I don't want to be broken I want to be awesome and get help with just the one time where it happened to work and just everything just lined up we were
00:59:30in the right place at the right time we had the right kind of jobs the right kind of money to make it count and it just works and so I think a lot of it is just you know persistence it's sticking with something until it does work and
00:59:42also knowing exactly wanted to kill something exactly once not once that feature because it sucks and I had another started before get hub called fans them and it launched in December of two thousand seven and and the get hub beta launch in January doesn't eight we're gonna get
00:59:59on the side and I think by February two thousand eight R. March two thousand eight we just knew that we had just killed stop working on friends family work full time and get out because it was obvious that this is the thing that was gonna you know leaders
01:00:10to financial independence and we were right and I think %HESITATION because we we've invested so much more money and time investment of time and it would be easy for us to say all we are to have this thousands of attractiveness other thing let's just see it through and
01:00:22you know maybe it would have been a colossal success bite it wasn't at the time and I don't think we would been happier doing that than we are right now you know you thought you said persistence I think %HESITATION early in the podcast in in regards to something
01:00:35I can't recall exactly what but I think it was like what keeps you up and they will keep to go in but %HESITATION a good friend of mine Kevin Milton from new leaders I'm not sure if you're familiar with him but that is not far from leasing this
01:00:47%HESITATION this book called lesson for leaders and there's one quote in the very opening of this book that %HESITATION says persistence always triumphs never give up how do you feel about that but I am I am I mixed mixed feelings on that because we had persisted with spam
01:01:02spam where would we be right now %HESITATION I think it's about not I think I guess maybe with that with with an understanding of where gone yeah I think it not giving up on something that you have a good feeling about is is very important and that sounds
01:01:17sort of like stupid and obvious but you know how many times have you had a new year's resolution where you want to do something and then you like stopped after months or how many times you decide to go try some new hobby and sat there for two weeks
01:01:28and even though you want to you want to learn guitar better or you are just just didn't you just and stick with it you know and for whatever and I think that that's that's the thing you have to fight against is even though you're in week four of
01:01:39you know playing guitar every day and you don't really want to do it you rather be watching TV or something are you rather be even working on your website you know just stick with it because in the end you got it you want to your goal or it
01:01:50will be worth it in some way and I think for us that was that I mean a lot of times we have an easier just to not work on the site or just go back to making consulting money bite we stuck with it because we had to go
01:01:58online and see I agree with that what are your west coast it so we're not here after dark let's go ahead and ask you what's on your open source radar I'm looking at your %HESITATION what street clothes and get a and %HESITATION it's almost a half the to
01:02:14get help loose there so what excites in a world of open source right now I think I mean I've been doing it sounds kinda cheesy I've been doing a lot of stuff with %HESITATION like old school unix I guess %HESITATION knowledge mining I just read our unix programming
01:02:28by agreement and I'm trying to get a feel for you know how the people in a generation before us and I thought about software development and know what tools they used how those tools are put together and and that sort of thing and learning about you know the
01:02:43origins of everything from standard out the standard error and what they're for %HESITATION you know %HESITATION right to make a just released this thing Ron for generating man pages which I've been using on my new projects and sort of writing like really good unix tools that help development
01:02:58and can help for all sorts of things like deployment and any sort of programming tasks so I've been really interested in learning about you know the ideas and philosophies behind some people that came before us and in a sense speaking internet years let's say just the origins of
01:03:12the internet and that sort of thing so for me that that's a pretty exciting it's just kind of like reading about problems that have already been solved in a way that %HESITATION I am intimately familiar with that I didn't even know was a problem just things like you
01:03:27know just like unix pipes would you take for granted every day you know they were invented by someone to solve some problem and what was the thinking there and it's it's pretty awesome just reading about that stuff in the motivation behind it it's like when the guy who
01:03:37invented running died a couple years ago you like what someone invented Rahman it's like well yeah I've course everything someone has to start something you know before Ron and you know what they do and even now but after only just seems so obvious so a lot a lot
01:03:49of college kids start exactly exactly but %HESITATION and other than that as far as like so some Ron is article slash run is a cool project for for Jerry man pages sites in ruby stepped out so if you read the scripts I've been using them I know that
01:04:04interested in is writing reviews scripts that the the fact that the written in ruby is incidental so I've this Republic which would forget hub and can read get the idea there is that it doesn't matter to you if if if you have ruby if you have read the
01:04:18jams that sort of thing it doesn't matter Yanni's argument really it should be really easy to install and it should work just like any unix command line script you have an inspiration for this kind of attack ABC K. which is sort of like a a graph replacement it's
01:04:31better than got dot com and it's written in Perl but you don't need to install it through C. pan or even know what that means is if you have problems on your system you can just run his little one liner and now you have back installed and everything
01:04:43Justin once represented tendencies you don't **** with it it just works and so I think there's a lot of appeal to writing %HESITATION scripts that way in your language of choice and you know whether it's in python a ruby sort of like hi dad in it it's tempting
01:04:55to be like I'm writing a review project and I want to like make our doctor use your docking and make all these are spec tests and then you know I have %HESITATION the re median Ardagh and make it a gem install it unless it was really awesome to
01:05:07re developers but there's a lot of assumptions there %HESITATION and to see what I'm talking about tried Devin into another language that you don't now for awhile %HESITATION and just sort of like play some of the projects and you have situations where like art I don't even know
01:05:20how to run these tests and then say anywhere because I'm not a you know acts programmer and this is written for X. programmers so writing projects are people that are necessarily ruby programmers or by the programmers just people that are using unix is pretty interesting to me right
01:05:33now because you know at almost everything on the command line is written that way every project you don't care for sincere pearl or or or even both like gay all you care about is what it's doing and so I think there's a lot of appeal there and it's
01:05:44kind of unfortunately a lost art to us like mainly web developers and I think that there's a lot that can be done there so other than that I've I've been playing with just no J. **** which I guess is %HESITATION is like %HESITATION everyone else's favorite side projects
01:05:58right now and it's interesting because I'm always on Java script reason time Josh upon get Hobbes and being able to use that in a server environment that's but super fast and has tons of like new libraries for interesting new tack coming out is is pretty interesting it's also
01:06:12funny as he used to be sees me getting a lot of momentum have you built anything of consequence personally with no gesture I nothing public I worked on some some Irish he stopped and some you know just buzz worthy real time browser stuff with it but nothing nothing
01:06:25public I'm trying to lose weight but for this particular framework I think I think this week more from my experience I think the sweet spot is when you have a lot of Java script and you can share libraries between the front and the back end so it their
01:06:38template engine and things like that you can just load in the back and look at the front end and the now you're just passing templates and chase and back and forth and you can render it wherever if it's the first page so you can render note if it's
01:06:48a a little snippet are partial you can render in the front end and I mean and situation like that you can just sort of upload update your ABS and not have to worry about the user reloading the page and in many instances you can just skip them updates
01:07:01to the extreme our whatever and not interrupt the user experience and I think I think no it would work for it really really well with the engine XTC push model which is my favorite way to **** in right now and so I've been playing with those two in
01:07:12tandem admits it then the push module holds open now long point connections to the browser for you in engine acts so it's really good holding a lot of them open at the same time and then it lets you send a a post request to up to publish your
01:07:27all that is secret and internal to your network and you give it a channel ID and the the browsers listening to channel ID and when the push module gets that post it'll give the data you posted to the browser so in this way you can do long falling
01:07:40persistent connections Vegas I connection and a browser and do it really easily without having to worry about alright and starting up a in order to demand peaking over excimer connections I need X. number of of ram and that sort of thing you just engine extend what's good at
01:07:53which is scaling and you handle what you're good at which is building your app and then when you want to talk to the browser you just post stuff so it's it's pretty only a way to do it very simple and I think those two technologies go together pretty
01:08:02well before we move away from the jets at the mention is that I think it's been like five or six consecutive podcaster done when where no Jess was mentioned that is at a are we trying to make a record or something well which is cool and there is
01:08:18love there okay as anything but it's just funny that everybody we talked about like no Jess no DSL love it this is the first episode we have it spelled it's of younger and spell it end of the day yes energy even first that I thought we were saying
01:08:31no J. as like I thought you were saying no GS it's just my ex that I apologize is like no sequel exactly does it like I think that's what Adam thought so one last item you know what we've been working on a skunk works project here the changelog
01:08:45for awhile tale the change log dot com seven this audio comes out we'll we'll take the wraps off of it we just wanted to get your reaction was no you seen it and then enough it's not favorable would just cut the second all I know I think it's
01:08:58I think it's awesome favorable unfavorable I think it's a great I think it's a great site on everybody get help loves it weedy I it's it's cool too because it looks very simple at first and then you had the little gear icon or you have the more button
01:09:12and you can kind of dig deeper so it has that sun fun sort of like %HESITATION exploring feeling to it where you can sort of like mess around and uncover new features which is always awesome in good software and I think it's cool it's a great way to
01:09:24to to look at everything I wish I wish we had built ourselves earlier on %HESITATION I know we can work with you guys to make it better in the future but you know I think I could see myself leaving it open and glancing at it whenever I'm a
01:09:35love it or just to see what's on the screen at the time and I want to ask you about that you know I've I find a lot of nice projects to to follow just behind following what you're following you know says but my my public timeline since I
01:09:47follow you on get up and want to know you know how often do you discover new projects school projects just by watching the public's online and how much of it is you know just through word of mouth I don't talk to someone that often it used to have
01:10:00like a two hour cash on it so is usually pretty stale I think now it updates about every five minutes and then if you had are stars as he I think doesn't have a a time cash in that way %HESITATION so I mostly I mean I find stuff
01:10:11online just mostly people tweeting about stuff or I follow a bunch of other people I try and follow as many people as I cannot get anyone knew I see I try and follow and %HESITATION you know I'm on the site all day every day for every reason either
01:10:26I'm doing open source I'm working on trying to debug something or I'm doing a support request so I mean a lot of the time if I happen to see something cool just you know follow it for later we don't watch the a project for later fall the individual
01:10:39%HESITATION yeah I went to a longer time where I was just watching projects and not following people so it's fun like nine people as of a couple months ago or something like that and I realized that a lot of the value comes from letting other people do the
01:10:50work for you like you just said you what media is obviously trying to follow as many people as possible because that's where you see like a lot of the new weird interesting stuff well I %HESITATION I know I speak for women I say thank you for coming on
01:11:02the podcast with us and certainly appreciate your your %HESITATION your US remarks about tell where we were super test about it %HESITATION you know a big credit is though the wind because you know he's he did a heck of a lot of work on that I did some
01:11:15light weight you I work on it and it was %HESITATION it was definitely ever of love for us so we're excited about what we are doing now with it and what we definitely have planned for the future with us so we would certainly encourage your participation in the
01:11:28end that and however that works out one last question I know this is totally off topic but I'm sorry I asked this question before I let you go origin behind the arctic cat is well we Thomas looking for like a mascot and you know and get there such
01:11:43a thing as an octopus merge got you so there's different merge energies and get if you do if you man get married you can see there's a dash asks for a strategy you can do a couple different ones and one of the octopus emerge so it just seems
01:11:54sort of obvious to us that you know when it gets cool esoteric features become the cute cuddly mascot that we use on our %HESITATION error pages just in case the %HESITATION the artist who did that that was not from I thought it was from an artist that was
01:12:08found on istockphoto and I can't recall the guy's name right now but I definitely bookmark to my delicious at some point so if you follow me on delicious Digg through there you'll find it but wasn't %HESITATION was not from our stock and there is a as an artist
01:12:22that lives in Japan he does some very cool unique art that and that optic out was one of the earlier versions of his art yeah I think Simon Oxley and yet it's the Twitter bird in all of this water stuff from yesterday and %HESITATION yeah we got it
01:12:37from istockphoto originally toms looking for the mask on there and then we ended up buying it so we we own it now exclusively but yeah that's that's where it came from is we bought it just like they did with the the Twitter bird as a license so for
01:12:49actually for a while he would say can we make on I'm not exactly sure to conduct kind of my whatever and we have to say well yeah he bein I suffered a license for it we we we can't we license it analytical did that but now now we
01:13:01on the right so we can control it we can obey god another kid hours for you let's ago the forty T. shirts that were popular couple years ago rails idea I had that come about because Adam wears a like two days a week that's not it you're not
01:13:15always wear that serves only video conference now what narrow right now crap are you reading and it's alright yeah yeah yeah yeah that's that's our I'd actually took that %HESITATION that picture in a in an apple store and I just got me where I might buy for you
01:13:33Sir and it's it's one of the **** I I have my clothes and I you know let's suppose that absolutely it was it was early on we were we were doing the %HESITATION at the site it was one of those decisions where we had the fourth button and
01:13:48it's different now commented amazingly beautiful but I mean I like the way that I like the old buttons to the older ones we had and what it had was a little %HESITATION so I count on it of a fork and it was in red and the link itself
01:14:00is red and we talked about it we decide the link should just be a normal color and I country be green because forking is a good thing on guitar we're gonna use the same word but it shouldn't be that it should be like the %HESITATION the baby Max
01:14:12Ford between actually Max and you Max Ginia and all that sort of thing %HESITATION and so one of the ways we want to try and enforce this idea is with a fork you shirt so I mean when you see that it looks like a phrase which is you
01:14:26know not very friendly I'm in so like saying forty to someone is sort of a censored version of saying something not very friendly to them but we want to take that phrase and say now you know now it is friendly now forking is the good things the same
01:14:39forty to someone is actually like in some ways a good thing it's saying like we are going to you know Singapore class basically like we're talking earlier that's what we think forty means just like simple request for my project and then work on it together and we'll figure
01:14:51it out and so the old way were fourty means like you know get the hell out here don't talk to me so that was sort of the idea and we're gonna take this phrase we're gonna put it everywhere in on these T. shirts and we're gonna make it
01:15:00a good thing and I don't how well that works I get more comments on that shirt from any other piece of clothing I wear where I go if I go somewhere if I'm like %HESITATION if I'm in line putting my name in to sit down for dinner some
01:15:12of their like all I like your shirt I totally forget what I'm wearing and I looked down there like and I'm like yeah it is a certain look back a minute it's usually a check issues it's acted like alabaster so it's it's good yeah we want to make
01:15:25more forty shirts and finally talk to catch search this year because now we can start to get stuff XO that should be pretty exciting I do one thing to mention now before I'm for you guys go and listen to this right now is is you guys should now
01:15:36you can go to get help dot com slash explore and it will be syndicated it'll have changed like stuff you need to go change on anymore also so yeah I don't have %HESITATION it'll have a bunch of life featured articles that change logs written about it'll have podcast
01:15:51the changelog is made and it also have other not change all related stuff such as training repositories and you know stuff to look out for stuff that's being forked and actually contributed to so get a dot com plus explore is going to be %HESITATION you can edit your
01:16:05bookmarks for next tale about the teams on the com is too big new time wasters in your life absolutely sure to make episode nine sticky at the top so that people know what's up awesome mobile sure what Chris a deadly thank you for your sharing your good thoughts
01:16:19until we're excited about what's going on with that and definitely excited about having her **** and syndicated on to %HESITATION ghetto dot com for slash explore that so excited about that the correlation before together where the sickness can go for us but %HESITATION blossom picking your brain about
01:16:34all the cool stuff you can work on over the past three years two years whatever was at thirty F. thirty yeah in in the in internet years thirty years right but the definite thank you for coming on the show preach at our guys thank you for listening to
01:16:55this edition of the change log point your browser to tell that the change log dot com to find out what's going on right now in open source also be sure to have to get up dot com for such explored to get support training MP three files as well
01:17:11as the latest episodes but change along

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