Full Transcript for #140: The Mental Model Keeping Your Team Stuck

TRANSCRIPT 🔗

WEBVTT 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:04.320 Welcome to the Cabrera Lab podcast. 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:05.919 Hey. 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:06.879 What's up? 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:08.080 Everything's up. 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:09.599 Well, that's not actually true. 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.039 Not every single thing is up. 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:12.400 There are some things that are down. 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:13.359 It's all relevant. 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:14.160 Physically. 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:14.560 Yeah. 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:17.120 Alright, so I have an interesting one. 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:22.719 I was talking to a group of executives the other day on a bluebelt training. 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:23.199 Yep. 00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:31.120 And I heard this familiar saying that I think you and I should deconstruct a little bit, which is that's just the way it is. 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:35.359 And I really gave me pause. 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:36.960 Like, let's really deconstruct. 00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:38.240 What does it mean? 00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:42.320 So I had two thoughts, and then you can kind of riff on it like you like to. 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:44.479 So which is good. 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:46.399 There are two things that came to mind. 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.520 One is that's the way it is. 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:52.799 First of all, what is it? 00:00:53.280 --> 00:01:09.120 And second of all, it seems to me that kind of phrase or phraseology is indication of an old locked-in mental model that's not being interrogated or pushed or challenged in any way. 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:10.879 Yeah, you're half right. 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:11.920 No, I'm entirely. 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:13.200 No, you're half right. 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.840 And but you're right, you're super right about the it. 00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:16.400 Yeah. 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:17.280 What is the it? 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.920 And the it in that sentence has two meanings. 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:22.719 Yeah. 00:01:23.040 --> 00:01:25.519 And and one of them is in the is, right? 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:29.439 So the it and the is are the the most important part of that sentence. 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:30.079 Yeah. 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:36.879 So the it could be that's the way it is, meaning like is is reality, right? 00:01:37.120 --> 00:01:37.519 Yes. 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:39.359 It could be reality. 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.040 That's how reality is. 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.920 And in that case, that's a really important is. 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:44.480 Yeah. 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:44.959 You know? 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:59.920 But it also could be that's the way this particular slice of reality is predicated on the things that we believe to be true, which may or may not be true, meaning they may or may not be reality. 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:00.480 Yes. 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:00.879 Right? 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:07.200 So the way we operate, it's a little, it's a little complex, which is why this is such an important saying. 00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:07.840 Yeah. 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:08.400 Right? 00:02:08.639 --> 00:02:11.840 The way we operate is based on our mental models. 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:19.039 And those mental models and that operation, those operations are part of reality. 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:30.080 So if you say like that's the way it is, and what you mean is, you know, this is the way our organization works, this is the way society works, there's a ch there's a reality to that. 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:30.960 It's true. 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:31.759 Yes. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.599 But it's not necessarily that's the way it has to work. 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.599 There are different mental models you could have that could make it work differently. 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:40.159 Yes. 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:55.680 And the question is whether or not it's bumping up uh up against some constraint of reality, which is usually, you know, in in the organizational realm, your constraints are not typically governed by physics or chemistry or things like that, right? 00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:59.199 So they're pretty they're pretty malleable constraints. 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:09.360 But if you're, you know, if you're building things and making rockets or building buildings, then yeah, you are bumping up against the constraints of real physics. 00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:09.759 Yeah. 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:21.759 Within those constraints, you can change your mental model and you can change whether it's your individual mental model or your collective mental model as an organization, and you can change your reality. 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:23.680 You can change the way it is. 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:24.479 Yes. 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:41.280 And what I like about what you just said, other than the fact that you said it, is it kind of so for me when I hear that in an organizational kind of setting, there's often this second part which is, and we can't change it. 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:41.840 Right? 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:47.039 It it it comes across as almost a defeated posture. 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:55.520 But what you just said actually is interesting, which is maybe I should flip the way I think about it, which is what they're saying to me is this is the reality of how it actually works. 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:55.919 Yes. 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:56.960 And I'm struggling. 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:58.719 And we have to love reality. 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:01.360 Yeah, and I'm struggling to to have it be different. 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:09.039 I don't have a footing into how I would change it because it seems so ingrained, so whatever the word is. 00:04:09.280 --> 00:04:09.439 Yeah. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:10.400 Normative. 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:16.639 Yeah, and it's weird because that statement could come with a word just in it, right? 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:22.079 Which is an interesting word

Load full transcript

because that that gets at the disempowerment of it all, right? 00:04:22.240 --> 00:04:22.399 Yes. 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:28.399 You know, so if you go, that's just the way it is, it's kind of like eh, there's nothing I can do about it, right? 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.040 But if it's that's the way it is, that could be a little different, right? 00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:43.680 So either way, if you notice that your mental models or your collective mental models, so we'll draw that as a bunch of people. 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:54.160 So an individual mental model or a collective mental model, doesn't matter which one, will lead to action of all kinds. 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:54.560 Yes. 00:04:54.879 --> 00:05:02.240 Which in an organizational setting is operations, tactics, you know, strategies, all kinds of things. 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:04.800 And this is going to lead to action as well. 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:11.680 So you could be saying that's just the way it is, meaning that's just the way we do things. 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.920 And that's changeable because you can change your mental model. 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:18.399 You can change your collective mental model. 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:20.639 So this is changeable. 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:26.079 Now, if you're saying more in a love reality sense, all of this is love reality. 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:27.920 That's why love reality is so important. 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:37.040 It's important to be like, hey, you know, there are some somewhat intractable, you know, structures at play here in our organization. 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.120 They're not constraints of nature, but they are real constraints. 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.000 We've been doing it this way for 25 years. 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:44.480 Yeah. 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:46.160 Those are real constraints. 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:54.959 The the emergent properties of the system have built up patterns of structure that that are now guiding behavior in your organization. 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:55.279 Yeah. 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:55.759 Right? 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:56.079 Yeah. 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:59.120 Or in your mentor or in your personal life, right? 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:04.800 If you've been doing something the same way for 25 years, you've built neuronal pathways for that thing. 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:06.720 It's hard to get out of those trenches. 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:12.399 Those trails in your brain are like trenches and you walk in the trench. 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:12.800 Yeah. 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:13.920 Those trails are right. 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:22.639 So you gotta you gotta physically step out of that trench and decide to walk in the in the forest or the jungle in order to get out of that. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:27.360 So those those are real the those are I would say constraints. 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.720 They're not they're not constraints that are insurmountable. 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:42.800 You know, if you're bumping up against the laws of physics, then those are constraints that are, you know, for all intents and purposes, currently at least insurmountable. 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:48.319 But most of the time, people aren't bumping up against the laws of physics. 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:52.240 They're bumping up the laws of sociology or the laws of psychology. 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:52.959 Right. 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.839 And those are much more malleable laws. 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:56.160 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:59.279 We want everyone in the world on the path to pro. 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.759 White belt, yellow belt, blue belt, landing in the PST credential. 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:06.720 Aaron Powell The Professional Systems Thinker credential. 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:18.959 And that's not just personal, it's also part of a wider vision of eight billion systems thinkers above the standard, which is the professional systems thinker or PST. 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.720 Count yourself into it and let's change ourselves. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:25.519 And when we change ourselves, we change the world. 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:30.160 Let's talk through a couple of possible examples of how this can manifest. 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:30.720 Yeah. 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:37.279 So, for example, I have a couple of things in mind because we I've had this come up a few times in different types of situations. 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:54.800 The first one, most common, is an organization that for whatever reason has some bureaucratic constraints, external funding, external stakeholders, and has a bit of a legacy of success right for the way things have been done. 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:03.519 But but those internal processes and constraints for the people on the ground doing the work actually are a barrier. 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:03.920 Yeah. 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:15.199 How do you align both levels, like the front line, the people who are actually executing the work, and the sort of bureaucratic layer on top, which is this is just the way we do it. 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:16.639 You know, it's funny. 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:23.680 I think people have the impression that it's a lot easier to change your own mind than it is to change a group of people's minds. 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:24.319 Yes. 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.560 And I don't know if that's always true. 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:42.559 I think it's just as your own patterns of behavior, especially patterns of behavior that have led to certain amounts of success in certain periods in your life, are indelibly burned as success stories. 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:43.440 Yes. 00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.440 And they're hard to get over. 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.639 This is why the saying, you know, that what got you here won't get you there. 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:49.120 Yes. 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:49.840 Right? 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:53.679 They're hard to get over because especially

because you've been successful. 00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:05.919 Especially, especially because those mental models helped you get through certain periods, you are sort of more endeared, they're more endeared, you're more endeared to them. 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:06.399 Yes. 00:09:06.639 --> 00:09:12.480 And so and you've burned those neurons and you've burned those trails and you walk those trails. 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:13.279 Right? 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:18.879 Well, the same is true in social sociology, not just psychology, right? 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:26.159 And but I think people think, boy, it's it's impossible to change the way you know a group of people think. 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:26.559 Yeah. 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:35.679 But I want you to think about actual examples that that, you know, if we love reality loop, you know, think let's think of some examples. 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:37.120 World War II. 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.480 We're not interested in going to war in Vietnam. 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:42.720 I mean, in uh in in Europe. 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:43.279 Yes. 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:43.759 Right? 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:45.759 All of a sudden we decide to. 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.279 The country writ large changes its course. 00:09:49.600 --> 00:10:02.000 Changes its course in a very short period of time, and you have, you know, women working in factories, children collecting gum wrappers, you know, for saving aluminum and things like that. 00:10:02.159 --> 00:10:03.919 I mean, the whole country shifts. 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:04.559 Yes. 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:09.919 And we've had similar, very similar shifts just in the last 10 years, right? 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.720 And shifting this way and then shifting back. 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:30.639 The the notion that it's hard to change culture, which is the shared mental models of people, or that it's somehow harder to change culture than it is to change your own individual mental models, I don't think is is supported by experience or science. 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:37.679 I think the assumption that those those two things are wildly different is not entirely supported. 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:44.480 So that means that, or it indicates that, in both cases, you have to change the mental model. 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:55.679 Now, getting that done without knowing that, if the mental model of the individual is leading to action, which is a whole set of things, right? 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:03.919 Or the mental model of the individuals is leading to actions or a whole set of things. 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:04.240 Yes. 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.320 This is the sociological realm, this is the psychological realm. 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:14.000 If we cover this up and all we see is this, then it looks hard. 00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.200 Because you're like, how do I stop people from behaving this way? 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.399 How do I stop people from doing it this way? 00:11:20.639

--> 00:11:23.039 It does you there's nothing to work on. 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:24.000 Does that make sense? 00:11:24.159 --> 00:11:25.600 And that's why it appears hard. 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:25.840 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.279 But that also might be why it appears like that's just the way it is. 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:30.080 It's just the way it is. 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:35.919 Because you're just seeing that over and over and over, and you're not seeing the behind the Absolutely. 00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:36.720 Absolutely. 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:44.320 When we uncover this, suddenly we go, oh, there's a mechanism that we can operate on. 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:46.720 I have agency over that mechanism. 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:55.679 Either I individually literally have agency over that mechanism, I'm empowered to change it, or I know exactly how to change it in people. 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.159 And there are things I can do to change it. 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:10.799 But if we don't see this relationship, that the mental models, which are often invisible to us and in many cases unconscious to us, if that's covered up, then I totally understand it. 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:12.720 You just go, yeah, that's just the way it is. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:14.000 Yeah, and it seems intractable. 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:15.039 It seems intractable. 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:16.480 Repeating and repeating and repeating. 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:21.519 There's no mechanism, and there's no agency, there's no empowerment vehicle. 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah. 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.080 You can't you go, how am I gonna do that? 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.720 There's all these people doing all these things, you know. 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.480 Am I gonna grab them and stop them from doing the things? 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:31.279 No. 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:32.399 Well, no. 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:37.039 I mean, you know, that that's one, but obviously that's not gonna happen. 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:42.960 But you remove the veil, and all of a sudden this is a totally basic problem. 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:43.600 Aaron Powell Right. 00:12:43.679 --> 00:13:07.039 And I guess what that means to me, practically speaking, is let's say I'm a mid to high level leader inside of a bureaucratic organization and I and I'm now aware of this connection, I'm like, oh, I need to go and find these people and sh and talk to them about why this path is not serving our organization. 00:13:07.600 --> 00:13:08.000 Totally. 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:18.159 Uncover their current mental model that's leading to this, and then show them a possible alternative that may be sort of updated to the reality. 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:18.399 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:22.799 Let me give you a real-world example of exactly what you just said, right? 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:24.720 Which is so fascinating to me. 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:25.360 Right? 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:35.360 So if if you have a bunch of customers and the customers are doing things, they're acting in ways that you don't like. 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:36.000 Yeah. 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:36.480 Right? 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:36.879 Yeah. 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:38.320 They're not buying your product. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:39.279 You're getting feedback. 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.759 You're getting feedback, you know, they're they're not understanding your product, whatever, right? 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.960 What's hilarious to me in in a non-hilarious way. 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:50.720 Like ironic or funny? 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.159 We know exactly what to do in this situation. 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.519 In this situation, so we'll put situation one. 00:13:57.759 --> 00:14:00.000 In this situation, we know exactly what to do. 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:10.960 What we do is we use marketing to change the way people think about your product, and we test whether that changes their actions. 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:11.759 Yes. 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:21.360 But then, in situation number two, where you have instead of customers, the only difference is that this is an E for employees. 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:22.399 For employees. 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:23.120 Yeah, yeah. 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.399 And we don't like how they're operating. 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:26.960 Right. 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:29.519 And we go, I don't know what to do. 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:30.080 Right. 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:31.039 I see what you're saying. 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:32.399 We go, it's impossible. 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:32.799 Yeah. 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:33.519 How are we gonna change it? 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:34.399 How are we gonna change it? 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.840 And you're like, just do internal marketing. 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:38.879 Around the mental. 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:45.360 Around the mental models that are causing the behavior and the conditions and the actions and the str, you know, whatever they are. 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:47.279 It's the same thing. 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.720 They're they're both humans. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:49.120 Yeah. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.240 They both create mental models that drive action. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.080 Yeah, except you have better access to this. 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:56.639 And you literally have better access to these people. 00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:57.440 You know where they live. 00:14:57.600 --> 00:14:59.679 I mean, it's like a marketing person's dream. 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:07.840 You know their demographics, you know where they live, you know where they work, you know how to contact them, you have permission to contact them, you pay them, you know where their bank account is. 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.039 Like you're rolling. 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:21.279 You know everything about them that a marketing person could ever want, but we don't have these wildly successful internal

marketing campaigns like we do with customers. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:22.000 Right. 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:24.559 It's it's almost like a necessity thing. 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:33.679 It's like when it became a costly necessity to ignore the reality of this situation. 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:48.879 To ignore that if your customer thinks that your product doesn't do X, so it's not the customer is not buying your product because it doesn't believe that your product does X, and your product does do X, then you have to educate your pa your customers. 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.399 You have to change their mental model that your product does X. 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:53.200 Yes. 00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:55.840 And then they choose your product. 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.279 Yes, you get the behavior you want. 00:15:57.519 --> 00:15:58.639 You get the behavior you want. 00:15:58.879 --> 00:15:59.120 Yeah. 00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.480 Well, and they get what they want. 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:01.519 And they get what they want. 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:01.840 Yeah. 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:02.799 Because they didn't know. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:08.559 We would never in this world, we would never say, oh, it's just that our customers are morons. 00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.399 It's just that our customers are wrong. 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.559 It's just that our customer No, we never anybody successful isn't saying that. 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:14.960 Yeah. 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:16.559 You're not saying, well, it's them. 00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:18.159 Fire our customers. 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:18.799 No. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:20.799 Hire better customers. 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:21.679 Right, right. 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:22.080 Right? 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:22.320 Yeah. 00:16:22.559 --> 00:16:25.519 You're you're like, our customers are our customers. 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:30.960 We if we create a product that helps them, supports them, does what they then they're gonna buy it. 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:31.600 Right. 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.960 But over here, we go, uh yeah, it's just, you know, it's and we just put blame here. 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.279 And as a result, it never gets fixed. 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:39.919 Right. 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:48.399 And the other thing is I don't think people are paying attention to I mean, you and I know how much you invest in every single hire. 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:48.879 Yeah. 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:49.919 Like that's a huge cost. 00:16:50.960 --> 00:17:05.119 Losing an employee is a huge cost because you put so much into the employee when you hire them that it these people should be perceived as valuable, if not more valuable, than the like these are this is an important organization. 00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:11.680 I would even push you to ask the question: what does that investment really look like? 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:12.799 Same way. 00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:18.720 That investment, in other words, if you've

invested a year in an employee, what have you really invested? 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:24.880 I mean, aside from the money of paying them, what do you what makes that employee valuable after a year? 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:33.039 It's that they're it's the the fact that their mental models have changed as a result of being in the context of your organization. 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:33.519 Yes. 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:34.000 Right? 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:41.359 It's that they know more things, they know how things connect, they know how things lead, what things lead to what things, and all, right? 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.680 So it's you're literally paying for their mental models to change. 00:17:45.920 --> 00:17:49.920 But we're doing it in this random evolutionary walk kind of way. 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:50.319 Yeah. 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:50.799 Right? 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:51.119 Yeah. 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:57.519 It's like, well, let's just like hope that they stumble on the right mental model discovery, Eureka moment. 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.880 Instead of being like, hey, if we outline the right mental model and we point them to it, we can save the random walks. 00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:06.000 Yeah, which takes time. 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.240 Which takes evolutionary time, right? 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.599 So evolutionary time, evolution doesn't care how long things take. 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:11.839 Yeah. 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:13.920 But we care how long things take. 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:17.599 And so evolution loves random walks. 00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.119 Lots of things are discovered in random walks in evolutionary time. 00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:29.119 In you know, the fast-paced life of things, it would be nice if we could shortcut the the evolutionary random walk. 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:29.920 For sure. 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:41.759 And I think also what's interesting about the phrase that's the way it is, or that's just the way it is, is it has individual implications and it has organizational implications. 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:42.319 Yeah. 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:49.440 And so one of the things I when I hear it, I say to I say to the person, okay, let's slow down. 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.720 First of all, I look for is there a just, which is the sort of defeated part of it. 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.559 And I'll say, what is it? 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:02.480 And in a lot of times when you're with a group, it is some variation of something. 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.279 Sometimes it's the same thing, sometimes it's the not. 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:06.400 It's not the same thing. 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:07.680 And so that's the first hurdle. 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:12.640 Is everybody has their version of that's the way it is, but their it could be different, right? 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.200 100%. 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:22.160 And I would I would even take that further and say my autistic tendencies, like pronouns are

really hard for me. 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.240 Like because I never know what pronoun what the pronoun is referring to. 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:26.960 Yes. 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.720 So, and I don't mean pronouns like the way it's talked about today. 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:32.559 I mean like actual pronouns. 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:34.799 The grammar of pronouns, right? 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:39.519 It, he, she, you know, those things, it, you know, they, whatever. 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:40.799 What is the pronoun? 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:49.039 Anytime people are using pronouns, double check that you know which referent the pronoun is referring to. 00:19:49.279 --> 00:19:49.440 Yeah. 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:55.119 Because people get very lost in the pronouns and they think they understand. 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:55.519 Right. 00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:02.240 You know, you could have six people at a table and you hear a a pronoun like they, and you think they who? 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:04.480 They the customer, they engineering, they sales. 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:08.480 You have three different people thinking three different things because of a pronoun. 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.079 My favorite thing is when they say this. 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:15.599 Yeah, and I my favorite thing is there's there's a sense like, well, this is different than that. 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.319 And I'm not sure. 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:17.759 And you're like, which this is. 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.240 Which this, yeah, this, that, it, those are the really dangerous ones. 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:30.720 I'm because to some people that that's the difference, the this is the ones the this, and then you're having this conversation that's just an entanglement of the Trevor Burrus. 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.400 Which is why ooting, object-oriented thinking, is so critically important. 00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:49.200 Because when you get it out on the table with blocks and you and you see it, and you go, yeah, you know, this is this thing here is made up of these parts, and this thing here is made up of these parts. 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:57.920 Well, and then when I say to you, this is not doing the right thing, you know exactly what I'm talking about. 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.400 Like the this is very obvious. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:01.920 Because we built the this. 00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:04.480 Yeah, but I would sl I would slow you down a little bit. 00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:05.759 I'd say name it. 00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:07.920 Yeah, no, they're named to begin with. 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:09.359 Right. 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:13.279 Because the biggest thing is we use the same word to mean different things. 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.400 Yeah, but different words to mean different. 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:15.440 I wasn't clear there. 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:38.960 Like, so so when if we name these things, like this is X and this is Y, what I notice when when groups are using ooting, the blocks or cards on tables, things like that, an a strange and somewhat ironic to this conversation ha thing happens, which is the pronouns that used to be dangerous become almost universal. 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:40.000 Right? 00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:40.240 Yeah. 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.359 So in regular speech, pronouns are very dangerous. 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:43.680 Yeah. 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:47.599 Because we often are misinterpreting what they are. 00:21:47.839 --> 00:22:09.440 But when you put things on the table and you can see X and you can see Y and you can use gesture, what I notice in executive groups is they'll say, Yeah, the problem is this thing is a And they'll be referring to very specific things, and there's no mistaking what they are because they're physical things that have been named. 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.279 Well, and everybody in the room is seeing X and Y, and they're making the same distinction that that person is making. 00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:22.640 And yet that person literally is using almost entirely pronouns at that point because they're saying this. 00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:39.680 So the j the combination of the physical object that is named plus the gesture, this versus this, this thing is affecting this thing, you know, it becomes almost like you don't you don't get hung up in the words. 00:22:39.759 --> 00:22:42.640 You get hung, you you're focused on the structures. 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.200 Yes. 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:48.000 And then communication in a group becomes much, much more cohesive. 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:48.559 Yes. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.559 Which is ironic because they're almost entirely using pronouns at that point. 00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.200 Yes. 00:22:53.359 --> 00:23:03.680 And so for me, I I actually said to this group, I said, that phrase, that's the way it is, should be a red flag in your conversation to stop. 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:04.400 Yes. 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:06.000 Deconstruct it. 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:06.559 Yep. 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:09.759 First, whoever said it, say what they meant. 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:10.240 Yep. 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:16.319 Then everyone else involved needs to also speak into what it means to them. 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:16.880 Right? 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:23.440 Because if you don't, you're down the road on a whole bunch of thinking errors that are gonna have consequences. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:33.920 Yeah, if you if you unpack that phrase like we're doing, like it's a piece of luggage, and you open it up and you start pulling out underwear and you know all the the different things, yeah. 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.559 It's like, is this a disempowering phrase? 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.319 Are we are we saying is this like a throw your hands up phrase? 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:40.559 Yeah. 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.119 I don't know. 00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:47.119 Does it have the just in it, or does it have that

intonation to it, like this is just the way it is? 00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:51.599 Like or is it like a a love reality phase? 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:53.279 Hey, we have to face this? 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:55.359 Those are two different statements. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.680 And then one is it, like you said, and what is it, what are we talking about? 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.839 Is meaning it it has to be that way? 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:08.000 That there are constraints that make it absolutely have to be that way? 00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.960 Or is it is like that's the way it is today, but it could be different. 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.000 Yes, and one can be empowering and one can be disempowering. 00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:22.480 So you can imagine you're in a meeting and your customer base has fallen by 5% in a quarter. 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.799 And you say, this is the way it is. 00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:25.519 This has happened. 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:26.480 This has happened. 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:27.920 This exists, this is real. 00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:29.599 Now we have to respond. 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:29.920 Yeah. 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:35.200 That's a different flavor than I'm in an organization, I'm like, this is just the way it is. 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.200 I'm not gonna be able to change HR and the way they do this. 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:38.160 Isn't that amazing? 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:38.400 Yeah. 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.279 Like when when it's external, we go, yeah, we can fix that. 00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:44.400 When it's internal, it's like, nah, there's what are we gonna do about that? 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:45.039 Right. 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:55.680 But to your point about this and this, when it's and what I see a lot is it's that disempowering, this is just the way things are done around here, and I can't change it. 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:56.240 Yeah. 00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:59.039 That is when you say, well, hold on. 00:24:59.200 --> 00:24:59.279 Yeah. 00:24:59.519 --> 00:24:59.920 Let's touch. 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.240 Slow down, let's unpack that baggage. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:09.359 What is the mental model collectively that led to this being the common belief about I'm just saying HR. 00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:11.599 This is it's whatever it is. 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:12.079 It doesn't matter. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.319 HR sales, procurement, whatever. 00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.119 The company. 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:15.920 The department. 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:18.319 The organization, the family. 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:19.759 What is the mental model? 00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:20.319 Who had it? 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:21.119 The family. 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:26.720 I mean, it's important for people to hear, like, it doesn't really matter what we're talking about here. 00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:27.599 True. 00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:36.559 It could be the department, it could be the organization, it could be your whole government, it could be your whole state, it could be your family, it could be you. 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:37.359 Yes. 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.799 The same psychosocial rules apply. 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:41.519 Yes. 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:52.160 And the same need to deconstruct and interrogate that statement for yourself, for your family, for your department, your division, whatever. 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:54.559 Non-f your stop and think about it. 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:55.279 Club. 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:55.839 Yeah. 00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.400 You know? 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:56.799 Yeah. 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:09.759 I think in the case where it's one of that sort of defeated stance, it's do the extra work to figure out the originating mental model that led to that, and then work on that, like you were saying, and then work on that mental model. 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:10.799 That is a good one. 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:11.920 That's a meaty one. 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.839 The little innocuous statement that has a lot of meat on the bone. 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.079 Well, you know, but you gotta pack it. 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:18.960 Exactly. 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:20.319 You gotta unpack that bag. 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:24.640 I respect them. 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.480 I don't understand them, but I respect them. 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.680 Well, I understand them. 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:28.480 I mean, really? 00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:34.720 Yeah, from there are all kinds of different perspectives on why someone would want to be or would want or need to be. 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:35.599 I do understand them. 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.160 I was actually a v a vegan many, many years ago. 00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:38.559 I know. 00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:43.440 And I was a fruititarian for a while when I was like in my early twenties or something. 00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:43.839 Yeah. 00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:49.200 And I I I it was it had its benefits, but uh I just like meat too much. 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:50.640 That's just the way it is. 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:51.839 That's just the way it is. 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:53.440 Derek, that's just the way it is. 00:26:55.359 --> 00:26:56.640 That's a wrap.

Edit transcript