Full Transcript for The Buzz | Kelly Barrett from Underwear for Humanity

my conscience and. 00:03:05 Speaker 2: As I've gotten older, I think I've had the realization that in any job that you do, in any career, there is always a way of giving back. So even my career, which is designing underwear, which seems like a pretty, I wouldn't say exactly useless, but not exactly like 00:03:27 Speaker 1: Um, it's off the beaten track. Yeah, 00:03:29 Speaker 2: it's not, yeah, not a social worker, you know, you're not people were released from jail like you are signing undies, um, but I've learned how powerful it is to have those essentials, and I've learned just over the years that all sorts of, um, even models have volunteered their time, you would think what what's a model got to do with, you know, um, social good, but actually I've been 00:03:55 Speaker 2: Really lucky to have two models volunteer their time because they believe in the business. So they're using their particular skill for good too. 00:04:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So it's like that deeper obligation, and that's what gives you the satisfaction, right? Like, you can have all the money in the world, but it's that deep, purposeful obligation that gets you up. 00:04:17 Speaker 2: It's literally the only thing I want to do for the rest of my life. Oh, I just want to do things that are gonna, um, 00:04:25 Speaker 2: Improve people's lives, improve the world that we live in, yeah, I just, I'm not interested really in anything else. 00:04:33 Speaker 1: I love it. 00:04:35 Speaker 1: So, you mentioned just before about, um, graduating from London College of Fashion with a Bachelor of Arts in product development, I think I, I read. What did you see as your ideal role straight out of uni, like, out of that course? What were you imagining yourself doing? 00:04:53 Speaker 2: So, I had a child halfway through that degree or the last 3rd, the 3rd year during industrial industrial placement. 00:05:03 Speaker 2: Um, so I was a single mother with a baby in my honors year and, um, I, that's, you know, when you have a child, you really want to make sure their life is as good as it can possibly be. And yeah, so I was really focused on stability and what can I do to make sure she has everything she needs, safe and 00:05:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I decided that straight after, um, 00:05:35 Speaker 2: My degree, I would do corporate work for a number of years and then do my own business, right, which is what happened, but it was so interesting that. 00:05:44 Speaker 2: I thought I needed that grounding, and I do really appreciate those 8 or so years in corporate. 00:05:51 Speaker 1: So you recognized that you needed the grounding to set you up for your own business or more the grounding for that stable 00:05:59 Speaker 2: both. Yeah. Yeah. I knew I would have my own business again because I had a few little businesses and 00:06:06 Speaker 2: I'm not really the employee type. I'm OK, but I just, I just wanna do what I wanna do. 00:06:13 Speaker 1: I hear you, 00:06:14 Speaker 1: sister. Yeah, 00:06:15 Speaker 2: well, I like variety and, and I like the chaos of startups, 00:06:20 Speaker 1: and making decisions just running with it, not getting anyone else's input, or yeah, 00:06:24 Speaker 2: action, 00:06:25 Speaker 1: yeah, action, action. I love it. I love it. OK, so then, um, 00:06:29 Speaker 1: Your work, uh, there was the whole proof? Yes. Yeah. OK. OK. And you worked up from an underwear designer to an underwear design manager? Yeah, 00:06:38 Speaker 2: manager, 00:06:39 Speaker 1: 8. 00:06:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, 00:06:41 Speaker 1: incredible. So why underwear? 00:06:45 Speaker 2: It's really, OK, so I think it's accidental, but it's a, there's a really interesting story behind this. So when I came back to Australia, baby in tow, no money, um, 00:06:58 Speaker 2: Holding my degree, which meant 0 in the Australian market, 00:07:02 Speaker 1: but it meant a whole lot to you. 00:07:05 Speaker 2: And I was struggling and I was doing like night shifts and, you know, in bars, trying to find a job. And um. 00:07:13 Speaker 2: Nothing was coming up. Anyway, a job came up at Dacor, the plastic company doing their cooler bags because it's a cut and so item. So it was being um the product manager in the cooler bag department. Yeah. So I took that role and 00:07:30 Speaker 2: I just, I was quite desperate to get back into fashion. So something came up that whole proof. 00:07:36 Speaker 2: And I just kind of fell into it. However, I actually remember a conversation with my design teacher. 00:07:43 Speaker 2: A few years before, which I've only just remembered not very long ago, and she said, what do you want to do when you leave? And I said, I want to start an underwear brand where the money, um, is an impact business and the money is helping women in need. And, um, I sort of forgot about it. It's so weird. I completely forgot about it and then I sort of stumble into underwear. 00:08:08 Speaker 2: And, and, and yeah, in retrospect, it was all kind of paved out. 00:08:11 Speaker 1: So you had 00:08:12 Speaker 1: that intention all the way back there, unbeknowing that it would actually manifest. Those are the best manifestations. You gotta be careful what you say, hey, you know, 00:08:24 Speaker 2: send it to my kids. Be really clear what you want. Yeah. 00:08:28 Speaker 1: So what were your biggest takeaways as an employee in the design space for corporate? 00:08:35 Speaker 2: Um, 00:08:37 Speaker 2: As far as career advice for somebody or what I learned? Yeah, 00:08:40 Speaker 1: no, what you learned? What were some of the biggest takeaways and that even that, you know, as an employee, you've been able to, you know, um, put to good work in your own business. 00:08:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think understanding, working with other corporate businesses, understanding the pressures they're under, um, 00:09:02 Speaker 2: And that things are not as simple as I want them to be, or you know,

just immediately go. There's a lot of politics and layers with big business, and I think understanding it in the business I was in, but also understanding in the customers that they had, which were really big businesses, the pressures they're under and how to try and make their life easier. 00:09:24 Speaker 1: OK, yeah, which is all about that solution selling too, right? It is, yeah, yeah. 00:09:29 Speaker 1: So then, yeah, I guess those are an amazing skills to then be able to transfer into your own business. Yeah, yeah, 00:09:38 Speaker 2: they were amazing skills. Yeah. 00:09:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right. 00:09:41 Speaker 1: Um, OK, so then you had Starcorp textiles. 00:09:46 Speaker 2: I still have that. You 00:09:47 Speaker 1: still have that, which is all about sustainability and, and creating change in the categories of was it underwear, thermals and socks. 00:09:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's for, it's a house brand business, so it no brand. Yeah and um I work. 00:10:02 Speaker 2: I don't work very much in that business now because I have a team that does all the things I was doing, but I work on sustainability in that business 00:10:09 Speaker 2: now. 00:10:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, right. OK. So, yeah, I didn't realize that was still running because what I was thinking, that would be, you'd had a couple of iterations of different business types before you landed underwear for humanity. Would that be still fair to say? Yeah, 00:10:25 Speaker 2: I think I 00:10:27 Speaker 2: Doing um product for other people, you don't have obviously 100% control of that and same as at Wholeproof you don't, didn't either. You have some influence but it's not your brand and um. 00:10:40 Speaker 2: There's always commercial realities around sustainability, yeah, so you can do so much and then you kind of run into a wall because the cost becomes too high, and um I really wanted to do something completely uncompromising where cost was not. 00:10:57 Speaker 2: Decisions weren't based on cost. They were based on what is the absolute best thing we can do. And then work backwards, to what can we sell that for to still survive and have all the impact we want to have, you know, and still be competitive in the market. 00:11:11 Speaker 1: So that was with underwear for humanity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, I think, I guess where I'm trying to go to is, you know, often people will see businesses having great success in a certain space and go, Oh, they've just started and they've just gone, but more often 00:11:27 Speaker 1: And then not there's iterations of the business prior to that, and a lot of years of work prior to that before you get that formula 00:11:35 Speaker 2: right. Yeah, I had another business, um, before, underwear of Humanity called Silent Arrow, and, um, 00:11:43 Speaker 2: That ran for. 00:11:46 Speaker 2: 4 years, and I certainly learned an enormous amount from that business that I brought into Underwear for Humanity so much because

I was such a product person, but having an econ business is mostly communication. 00:12:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, 00:12:03 Speaker 1: yeah, um, which 00:12:04 Speaker 2: I didn't realize. So I learned an enormous amount about having an econ brand but also around inventory and 00:12:13 Speaker 2: Um, I still got to learn my lesson on that one a bit, but I did learn a lot. Um, but yeah, that iteration of the small business and underwear econ brand, yeah, it, there was, there were some amazing things about it and there were some things that were just really, really difficult and certainly I haven't done those difficult things again, like I've done it differently. 00:12:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%. 00:12:39 Speaker 1: So what, what was the point where you go, right, we're going to launch underwear for humanity, and this is how it's gonna go. 00:12:46 Speaker 2: So, I had stopped Silent Arrow. I couldn't, I had to make some compromises and I wasn't happy to do that to keep it going. Um, either on size diversity or sustainability, and it was too important for both of those things were too important to me. So it just had a natural end that I think this is done. And um, so then there was an emptiness of 00:13:11 Speaker 2: What is the next thing? I'm not done here. Like I, I want to do another brand. I feel like I have more to give. And 00:13:20 Speaker 2: Um, whilst Silent Arrow was also an impact business, I want to do something more impactful. And so, 00:13:27 Speaker 2: I thought 00:13:29 Speaker 2: I don't know what the next thing is, but I'm just gonna sit in this empty space until it comes to me and 00:13:37 Speaker 2: The right thing will come. And it took ages. Like I was expecting it in 1 week, and I was expecting it in 2 weeks. You know, it was like 4 weeks of empty at least, you 00:13:46 Speaker 1: know. If I just have a swim every day, yeah, exactly. 00:13:50 Speaker 2: And then, uh, we went on holiday to Byron and, um, 00:13:54 Speaker 2: The kids were a bit smaller then, and I thought I, anyway, I thought I was gonna have this nice empty space where, 00:14:01 Speaker 2: I would be in flow, it would come to me and I would know this next path where I would have greater impact. And um, I found myself really busy with the kids. Yeah, and I thought it's not happening. Like this was supposed to be my downtime, so I would be inspired and 00:14:19 Speaker 2: Anyway, um, we were just super busy and one morning at 5 o'clock, I got woken up by, um, the kookaburras, you know, they were so loud in the morning, so amazing. 00:14:32 Speaker 2: I woke up and I thought, Oh, this is the only time I'm gonna have a loan. I need to get up now. So I got up, I had my notepad, and I was just hanging out around the trees and forests and, and then I just was sketching these ideas and it all came to me like the logo, what the range should be. And I remember reflecting and thinking and saying, Is this really what I should do? This looks really plain. Is this

gonna sell? Cause what I was doing before was quite edgy and this is really simple underwear. 00:15:03 Speaker 2: And I was like, yep, that's what you need to do. And I was like, OK, because I didn't want, because it's an impact business, I didn't want my brain to be running it because it's too limiting. It needed to come from a really deeper spiritual place to to know I was on the right path to have the biggest impact I could have. 00:15:22 Speaker 1: I just got goosebumps. 00:15:24 Speaker 1: I love that. 00:15:25 Speaker 2: So yeah, I was like, OK, I'll do it. And I didn't know the name. And then this name Underwear for Humanity came to me and I was like, Oh, OK, that's the name. 00:15:32 Speaker 2: So then I searched it, and it already existed in the States, undies for humanity, and it was like an anti-Trump campaign or something. And I was like, Oh, OK. Yeah, it was way back then. And I was like, Oh, it's again now, isn't it? Um, and then I was like, Oh, it's gone. I don't know why that came to me then. And then I kept working on the range. I didn't. 00:15:50 Speaker 2: I know the name of the brand. And I was in the bathroom, and then the name, again, I just like heard it in my ear. And I thought, OK, well, I'll search it again and this time it was available. Contacted the lawyer to get it registered. They said, You're not gonna be able to register that. And I was like, just try. They said, No, there's too many similar names. I was like, just try. 00:16:09 Speaker 2: Because it wasn't my idea. Like, and so I thought it must be meant to be. And then she said, Oh, it's actually came through. I'm really surprised, and it came through really fast. And I was like, Yeah, of course. Of course it did. 00:16:22 Speaker 1: Oh my God, I love that. And 00:16:24 Speaker 2: I was also like studying sustainability, so for me it was like I was trying to pull in all of those learnings and 00:16:32 Speaker 2: Do 00:16:34 Speaker 2: Something that was thinking of every single touch point rather than just in a really linear sort of way. Yeah. 00:16:41 Speaker 1: And so when you're going through that process, I mean, you speak of, you know, making notes, and you've got your journal, this kind of thing. Are you, were you a sort of a formal business planner? Like, I'm trying to understand the balance between business logistics and that creativity and flow. 00:16:58 Speaker 2: For me, um, no, there was not a business plan. There was really trust that I was on the right path. Yeah and 00:17:08 Speaker 2: That if I want to have. 00:17:10 Speaker 2: Really big impact. I just want to trust that and and I also am an optimist. I'm like, let's just do it. It'll work out. If it doesn't work out, oh well, move on next thing. 00:17:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, 00:17:21 Speaker 2: yeah, yeah. Let's just try. 00:17:23 Speaker 1: 100%. Yeah. 00:17:25 Speaker 2: And 00:17:25 Speaker 2: I just think like, I don't know, I love that there's that saying that if you aren't

embarrassed by the first thing you developed. 00:17:35 Speaker 2: You launched too late or something. Oh 00:17:37 Speaker 1: really? I've not heard of that one. OK, 00:17:39 Speaker 2: because I think it's true it's never gonna be perfect. You just got to do it. 00:17:42 Speaker 1: That's, 00:17:44 Speaker 2: you know. 00:17:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it, that's it. So 00:17:48 Speaker 1: What did Underwear for Humanity launch as? Like, is it the same model as it is now? Or it is? Yeah. OK. So can you just share with the listener who may not have heard of the group if they've been living under a rock, um, what you actually do? 00:18:03 Speaker 2: OK, so it's an underwear brand, um, that believes in the power of conscious consumption and that 00:18:12 Speaker 2: We are creating the future we want to see now with where we put our energy and what we spend our money on, which is also energy and um that 00:18:23 Speaker 2: You can buy your essentials, underwear, and at the same time have a lot of powerful social and environmental good. Like, thank you, hand wash, you know, that's not Tom's like these concepts have existed before, but, um, we go really deeply into being responsible environmentally as well. So if I'm going to produce something and put it out in the world. 00:18:47 Speaker 2: It's gonna, it's gonna cause like carbon emissions, it's. 00:18:52 Speaker 2: It takes a lot of energy to produce anything. And so, what's the lightest I can do with this, you know, scientific research that I've done and how can I, how can I make it the best it can possibly be? So I invented my own recycled elastics that I couldn't get, and, and so how can the product really stand up, be amazing, long lasting, and 00:19:13 Speaker 2: Be as responsible as possible. And then I also take underwear back from all brands. So what about end of life? How can I be more responsible? So we do underwear recycling. Um, and then the other thing is our social good, which is one for one underwear donation, um, mostly to women's shelters, and we do a 50 cent rent payment for each item sold that goes to, um, Aboriginal groups. 00:19:43 Speaker 2: And we um. 00:19:47 Speaker 2: Partner with 00:19:49 Speaker 2: A work training program, uh, with Social Engine it's called, and that's training Afghan women, uh, refugee women in Pick and Park and work skills and getting their CV ready to start working full time. Um, I think that's it. Yeah, yeah. I always get a bit confused myself. There's actually quite a lot going on. 00:20:09 Speaker 1: There's so 00:20:10 Speaker 1: much going on and I didn't realize just how much until I started, you know, researching for our interview today, it really 00:20:18 Speaker 1: You know, I, I thought, I was thinking very surface level. I didn't realize all of that went on. So, yeah, incredible, incredible. So in those early days, um, you know, every entrepreneurial journey has its challenges all throughout, really. Um, but I can imagine in the fashion industry and even more so in the sustainability sort of stream, what were some of the most significant obstacles, you know, you faced in those early stages? 00:20:46 Speaker 2: I think um 00:20:49 Speaker 2: Lack of faith from everyone around me. I don't think anyone thought it was a good idea. 00:20:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, in a circle, man. That's everything, isn't it? 00:20:56 Speaker 2: Yeah. Even my partner actively said it was a bad idea, and so that was, that was hard. Yeah. And, um, he's definitely not as spiritually minded as, you know, driven as me or focused, and I remember one day, one day saying to him, look, it will work. Otherwise the kookaburras wouldn't have told me. Yeah. 00:21:19 Speaker 2: Because he's quite a blokey bloke, so he was like, he just said, he was just, yeah, I said nothing to that. 00:21:25 Speaker 1: Don't mess with me in the kookaburras. 00:21:27 Speaker 2: Don't mess with the abs. Yeah, so I think that's hard, just that feeling of isolation, that you don't, you know, not having support. 00:21:35 Speaker 1: You've got you don't have, it feels like you don't have someone in your corner. 00:21:39 Speaker 2: Exactly. And then having, holding the faith that it's gonna work when you're not getting that reflected back that it could work. So. 00:21:47 Speaker 2: Um, just going and holding strong, like that's still, I still have to do that. I catch myself being like, oh my gosh, this is not good. Oh yeah, it's gonna be fine. I stay strong. 00:21:58 Speaker 2: Keep the faith, 00:21:59 Speaker 1: 100%. 00:22:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think that was really tricky, um. 00:22:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, and for me it's always. 00:22:07 Speaker 2: I, I find marketing quite tricky. Like I like storytelling, but marketing is so complex and it can be. 00:22:15 Speaker 2: There's so many people that say they're good at it, some people are good at it, a lot of people aren't that good at it, you know, and so how do you know who to put your faith in or spend the precious resources you have to start the business with like that I think is always really hard. Yeah, um. 00:22:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, answered the question, but. 00:22:34 Speaker 1: No, well, those are some of the, you know, challenges in that, in that space. And I guess how do you overcome that? Like, you know, you'd said, when it's your inner circle and that, you know, doubt, if you like, you just go back to center and back to your faith and, you know, which is also tough. So how do you do that? Do you like, go out in nature or do you like, just, yeah. 00:23:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think walks in nature helped me a lot. Um, I feel like I can become really clear and. 00:23:07 Speaker 2: Um, yeah, that helps me a lot. I need to do that more actually, I haven't been doing that lately and I've been getting in my head more. But yeah, it does help me if I can go for a swim or go for a walk, um. 00:23:21 Speaker 2: And not get too caught up, like, so easy to

get caught up in the little things and just try and think bigger picture, 00:23:28 Speaker 1: the big goal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:23:31 Speaker 2: And even let some of those things, little things fall over rather than it taking up all your energy. Yeah, 00:23:36 Speaker 1: yeah, absolutely. So then when you're talking about the workaround for, you know, the likes of marketing agencies and finding the right people, what's been your strategy to, to work through those challenges? 00:23:50 Speaker 2: So I mostly work with freelancers because we're just so little because we haven't had the budget really for an agency. So we've been working with lots of different freelancers and just a little bit hit and miss, but there's been some amazing people as well. um yeah, that's what we do. 00:24:06 Speaker 2: And then myself, I'm always trying to educate myself and I do courses and things and 00:24:11 Speaker 1: I think can keep a really strong handle on where the ship's going in that space. 00:24:16 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I've avoided doing extra study in that way, but I've started recently because I think if you've got an econ brand, you absolutely have to understand it. Yeah. I mean, I do understand it a bit, but really a bit deeper. 00:24:32 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:24:33 Speaker 1: So I think raising capital to get started in business can be a stumbling block for many. How did you get started? 00:24:41 Speaker 2: So I sold off all the stock from Silent Arrow, OK. Um, and I had $100,000 to start Underwear for Humanity. So that's how I did it. 00:24:52 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:24:53 Speaker 2: So it's been running from that $100,000. Yeah. Um, and 00:24:58 Speaker 1: how long ago was that? 00:24:59 Speaker 1: Was, was it 2020, 00:25:02 Speaker 2: 202,020 I started but didn't launch until 21. Yeah, yeah, 00:25:07 Speaker 1: yeah, incredible. And then there are also for, for your business set up, there's often, you know, um, community grants or community funding. 00:25:16 Speaker 1: Programs and government grants and that kind of thing. Is that something that you sort of keep across and have managed to take advantage of at any point? I 00:25:23 Speaker 2: sort of, I don't seem to qualify for any of the categories because, like, yes, I do underwear recycling, but I don't physically do it myself. And then, you know, yes, there's work training, but that's by a partnership and 00:25:36 Speaker 2: You know, we do support some amazing Aboriginal projects, but they're not our projects and so they're not, you know, it's really tricky actually to qualify for any of those grants, I find. 00:25:47 Speaker 1: However, I think I counted 7 certifications that underwear for humanity has, including the PETA approved, um, vegan, the tensil certified B Corp, and of course social traders. Did you start out with all of those or did you pick them up as you went along? 00:26:06 Speaker 2: I started out with most of them. B Corp is a long process, so it took about 9 months for them to process my submission and also you have to be in business for a year, OK, to be able to apply. Um, so in Europe you can be be pending, but in Australia and New Zealand, you have to be operational for a year. Um, so I waited for that, then I applied and then there was a big backlog. 00:26:33 Speaker 2: So it took at least 9 months for them to look at it and then there was a bit more back and forth like submit this, you forgot this blah blah blah, and then, yeah, got certified a year ago. 00:26:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, right. So you didn't push out any timelines because you were waiting for these certifications? No. Yeah. And I think that goes back to that point we were talking about earlier. I think sometimes it's so easy to get caught up and waiting for everything to align and everything to be perfect. And all the certifications locked away, and you're wasting precious time in the market. 00:27:04 Speaker 2: You are. And, and 00:27:06 Speaker 2: Most of the things we focus on and worry about, people don't even notice. Like most people don't even know that we donate one for one, even though that's pretty basic part of the brand. So it's hard to get a lot of messages across to people when their lives are so full and there's so many messages too, so many messages, yeah. So I think um it takes time and not not to wait for things like that, like things like certifications. 00:27:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. 00:27:34 Speaker 1: What was the nicest surprise during that startup process of underwear for 00:27:38 Speaker 2: humanity before launching like the research stage. Yeah. Well, I actually move really fast as a person, so I loved that it was a bit slower and I had time to perfect things and go back over it, because that's not really my style. So I really enjoyed that. That was during all the lockdowns and um things were moving slower anyway with getting answers on things and samples and stuff, so. 00:28:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really enjoyed the pace. It's hard for me to make myself do that. So it was, it was really good. 00:28:12 Speaker 1: That 00:28:12 Speaker 2: is 00:28:12 Speaker 1: a lovely surprise. And on the flip side, what were some of the toughest challenges? It sounds like you may have just answered those actually. Research in COVID times. Yeah, 00:28:22 Speaker 2: that was definitely. 00:28:25 Speaker 2: Definitely a hurdle and I had to just be patient and say well we just won't launch it, that's OK, um. 00:28:31 Speaker 2: But 00:28:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know actually, um. 00:28:36 Speaker 2: Even 00:28:38 Speaker 2: I guess, I guess the lack of faith from people because even the, even the people that did my website, they said, launch without the recycling, don't, it's too many questions, it's too many messages, you're gonna confuse people. And I said, you know, I think people are really smart and I think they'll understand that we need to be responsible for the things we put out in the world. So I'm

not gonna wait for that. Yeah. Just that I, it is an unusual business and it's level of, you know, being really conscientious. So it's hard for people to have faith in that. 00:29:07 Speaker 2: And, um, when we did launch, one of the, um, items sold out really fast and I just couldn't get back into stock because I couldn't get the recycled nylon fiber in the fiber market to be able to knit the elastic. So I just had to delay it. Like I just had to not have it for 6 months, even though it was the best seller. And that's it was hard for people to understand that. Yeah. 00:29:33 Speaker 2: around me. Like, why wouldn't you just use market available elastic and you just have it in, have it for sale? It's like, well, what's the point of that? Yeah, another underwear brand. 00:29:44 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, right. That's incredible. So how did you launch then? What were some of the key pillars that you sort of attribute to your successful launch, which is, you know, selling out of selling out of line, it's impressive. 00:30:00 Speaker 2: Um, I kept 00:30:03 Speaker 2: The Instagram account from Silent Arrow, OK, and renamed it and introduced the brand to the people, because there was so much blood, sweat and tears to gain those followers. Yeah, yeah, so much energy, um. 00:30:20 Speaker 2: And why just introduced the brand, I hoped that there was enough crossover in values that people would still enjoy, follow it, like the brand. Some people dropped off but we didn't have very much drop off. So I think that really helped that we were able to bring in 00:30:37 Speaker 2: Our old community to the new community, 00:30:39 Speaker 1: leveraging that. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. 00:30:43 Speaker 1: Um, so then we're talking about mission, you've shared, you know, a lot of what you do, but do you have a mission statement? 00:30:51 Speaker 1: I like, 00:30:52 Speaker 2: I wish I did, hey. Yeah, it'd be so cool, wouldn't it? Yeah, I could just like roll it off. Yeah. But you know, I've I've tried so many times. I wonder if a really good mission statement just has to take time to evolve. Like, I wonder, just 00:31:10 Speaker 1: jotting down some power words that keep coming to you. Yeah, 00:31:14 Speaker 2: I've got a few. I've had a few over the period, but none have like really, really stuck yet. 00:31:21 Speaker 2: I'm still getting to know it myself in a way, you know, like a brand has its own life and. 00:31:27 Speaker 2: I just, I'm still getting to know him. Yeah, I think I want a really cool one though, think of anything. Wow, 00:31:35 Speaker 1: I'm 00:31:36 Speaker 1: right into storytelling and discovery sessions, so maybe we should have a session, yes. 00:31:42 Speaker 1: Oh God. So, OK, so then, aside from that, obviously focusing on a lot more than just profit, how do you balance the financial needs of the business with its social mission? 00:31:54 Speaker 2: Um, 00:31:55 Speaker 2: I'm not great at it, um. 00:31:59 Speaker 2:

So, I have some help from my other business, uh, some pro bono hours to help on this business. And so someone's looking after, um, donations for me. Great. And I noticed when I look after it, that anyone who says that they're in dire need of underwear or they're really trying to get it to these women, I, I can't, how do you say no to anybody. So I just really can't do that that role, and 00:32:24 Speaker 2: Um, always over donating and, um, you know, it's just a cost, isn't it, for business as well, so. 00:32:32 Speaker 2: That's a bit tricky. Um, OK, for me, um, it was important that we donated prior to making profit. So I didn't want to have some bullshit thing that, oh, we donate one for one, but not until we're profitable and it may take 2 years to be profitable. Yeah, fine print. Yeah. So we donate as we go, um, we donate monthly and um that's just because of admin and resources. Yeah, but yeah, so we just donate and um. 00:33:02 Speaker 2: So 00:33:03 Speaker 2: That because of the business it is, has to be a priority above profit. Otherwise there's no point doing it. I love that. Yeah, so it is an unusual business I know but um. 00:33:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, the social good uh commitments have to come, have to come first and um. 00:33:24 Speaker 2: I just want to be able to stay in business. Like that's the sort of goal, like stay in business and do as much social good as possible. Yes, so we didn't do as well this financial year as last financial year, but actually our units were up, so which means that we donated more. Yes, so our financials were down. 00:33:41 Speaker 2: But our units were up. 00:33:42 Speaker 1: Yes, 00:33:42 Speaker 2: so we actually did achieve more. 00:33:44 Speaker 1: Yes, 00:33:45 Speaker 2: yes. 00:33:46 Speaker 1: So incredible. 00:33:47 Speaker 2: That's exciting for me. 00:33:48 Speaker 1: That's really exciting. So I guess that, you know, that actually really leads me on to, you know, um, measures of success because I find it quite fascinating to discuss with different entrepreneurs what their 00:33:59 Speaker 1: measures of success are because obviously they're different in every business, but then they're also different in every stage of business. And it's interesting how they move and, and shift along the way. So what would you say your measures of success for the business are, what would you 4 years, 5 years into it? 00:34:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, so 3 years since launch, 3 00:34:20 Speaker 1: years since launch, 00:34:22 Speaker 2: just over. Yeah, yeah, but it is about the other, yeah, since starting the research. Um. 00:34:28 Speaker 2: So having, so we, we give away a lot of underwear, we recycle a lot of underwear, like thousands and 00:34:35 Speaker 2: That's wonderful, but it's the human factor for me when I feel that it's been successful, so. 00:34:43 Speaker 2: When I go to the pick and pack and I'm speaking to a woman from Afghanistan and she is, 00:34:49 Speaker 2: Excited to be in

a work training program because she's been so restricted for so long and unable to work on her journey to get to Australia, which can be 6 years long. Yeah, um, and 00:35:02 Speaker 2: I have a conversation with another human being who's, you know, they've they've had such difficulty, but they come with such positivity and hope and and that there's an opportunity for her. 00:35:14 Speaker 2: And then, you know, that's what, that's what feels like success to me. Cause the underwear donations we're we're past 33,000 now and 00:35:23 Speaker 2: It's wonderful because I know it has a big impact, but I don't see the women who get it. Like I speak to the social workers, um, a lot of women uh background of domestic violence, and I think it's 80% of homelessness from domestic violence, so those women are terrified, they don't want to be identified, you know, they're, they're they're in hiding, and so it's just really nice to have a direct human to human conversation and feel that you're having a positive impact on someone else's life. 00:35:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. 00:35:53 Speaker 1: And that, yeah. So my, my next question was gonna be what your personal, you know, measures of success are at this stage of your business, but just, yeah, they're all intertwined, right? They're all as a business owner and then, you know, personally knowing that you've been able to make a difference to these people's life stories. 00:36:12 Speaker 2: But I guess, yeah, I guess going backwards then from a business perspective, like I don't want the brand to be niche. I don't want it to be, I want to actually 00:36:21 Speaker 2: Be taking market share from extractive brands. Like I want people who are wearing bonds to say, oh, I'll wear underwear for humanity instead, because you know it's 50% lower in emissions, so that already has an impact, but then all of the knock-on effects of that money where it goes to. So I just don't want to be little and not have um the impact I'm looking for. Like I really want to affect a lot of people's lives. So I want the business to scale, and I think 00:36:49 Speaker 2: Um, being successful and being visible as a business means we'll sell more product, which means we donate more. So that's a measure for me too, 00:37:03 Speaker 1: yeah, that's the end point it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. One of my next questions was, what are some of the tangible impacts you've seen as a result of your work? We've spoken about stories, um, 00:37:16 Speaker 1: And how has the community reacted to your products and purpose? 00:37:21 Speaker 2: So 00:37:22 Speaker 2: Yes, it wasn't yesterday, it was a few days ago actually. Um, I was working on the website and, um, 00:37:30 Speaker 2: I started reading all of the reviews and I just, I felt like crying. I absolutely loved it. The reviews were really beautiful, um, and 00:37:41 Speaker 2: So many words of support that we're like in it together. Yes, yes, beautiful. It's so wonderful. Yeah. And I

was thinking I need to read these reviews. 00:37:51 Speaker 1: I was 00:37:51 Speaker 1: just gonna say you need to have those moments where, you know, you're getting, you know, a little bit of pushback from your inner circle. You just need to go back and read your reviews, really, don't you? Yeah, because 00:38:01 Speaker 1: into perspective because those are the people who you are serving, 00:38:06 Speaker 2: and we're doing it together. They're, they're my people. Yes, 00:38:10 Speaker 1: that's your tribe. I love that. Yeah, yeah. For aspiring social entrepreneurs, what advice would you give about integrating social cause into a business model? 00:38:23 Speaker 2: Um, I think that. 00:38:25 Speaker 2: There are so many ways, um, I think. 00:38:30 Speaker 2: I think supply chain is a really easy way of bringing social good into a lot of businesses, um, specifically. Well, I think when you think of my warehousing, for example, that's an easy way to have social good as a partnership with someone who's doing already good. Um, if it's a bigger business, you know, it's around, you can be the stationary that you get from like um Green Connect or, you know, there's so many amazing businesses out there. 00:38:54 Speaker 2: Um, that you can link into as part of your business structure, um. 00:39:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think for an aspiring social entrepreneur, I think it's really important to look at what else is out there. Sometimes I see um social enterprises, um, doing something that's already like a lot of it's been done already and I wonder if it's gonna have the impact they want and they're really little, and they're working really hard. We've 00:39:23 Speaker 1: got a big fight. Yeah, they've got a 00:39:25 Speaker 1: big fight. 00:39:26 Speaker 2: So I do think 00:39:28 Speaker 2: There needs to be a need and um. 00:39:32 Speaker 2: That you can tap into to serve that need, you know, if it's too little. 00:39:37 Speaker 1: So getting really, really clear on what your mission is, getting really clear on where you fit into the market, who your competitor set is, and how you're gonna compete. 00:39:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. Make sure it's needed as well. The social side of it is needed. 00:39:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:39:55 Speaker 1: Paul, now I feel like every week at the moment, you're sharing well-deserved big wins on social, so I want to take a moment and say congrats for a bloody huge year. Thank you so much. Most recently, the New South Wales accelerating women, um, winner at the Telstra Best of Business Awards. That was a mouthful. Yeah. A huge field of over 22,000 businesses. 00:40:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's 00:40:24 Speaker 1: amazing. 00:40:25 Speaker 1: Yeah. Prior to that coming in at #4 and the Ragtrader top 4 B Corp, Australian New Zealand brands and fashion. Panel speaker at the Social Enterprise festival, sustainable leadership and e-commerce and 00:40:41 Speaker 1: E-commerce Industry Award

at the Banksia Foundation sustainably sustainability Awards. The list just goes on. What has been the benefit to your business and securing these accolades? 00:40:53 Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's an unusual business and um, 00:40:58 Speaker 2: People who are into sustainability and social good. 00:41:02 Speaker 2: are my people and I think they discover the brand and then become advocates for the brand, which is exactly, you know, what we need. So, um, I think 00:41:13 Speaker 2: The good thing about awards is visibility. Um, it's certainly been good for me on a personal level. Well, 00:41:19 Speaker 1: that 00:41:19 Speaker 1: was gonna be my next question. You've obviously got the business benefits, but you know, there's personal, there's that layer of personal benefits as 00:41:26 Speaker 1: well, 00:41:27 Speaker 2: right? Yeah, there's just, um, I got off the phone with Telstra and it was like this kind of glow. I was just like, I was gonna stop and it's just like the sun shining on me for a moment and just go, oh. 00:41:39 Speaker 2: OK, so all that stress and sleepless nights and worrying financially all the time about the business and just to be recognized and. 00:41:49 Speaker 2: Um, it's, it's actually hard to find the words, to be honest. It feels so good to be acknowledged and seen and and know that it's not just in my head, because part of me still thinks it's actually just in my head and no one else can see it almost. Yeah, it's 00:42:05 Speaker 1: just you and the kookaburras. 00:42:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, just me and the kookaburras and a pair of undies. 00:42:12 Speaker 2: Oh my God. Can you see it? You've actually, yeah, 00:42:15 Speaker 1: yeah, I see it. I'm there with you. 00:42:19 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's, it's, it's 00:42:22 Speaker 1: huge. 00:42:23 Speaker 2: It's huge. It feels really, really good. Yeah. It feels like I'm on the right track, you know, it's like a little signpost to say, we see you, you're doing the right thing. I know it seems hard, but it's good. Keep going, keep 00:42:36 Speaker 1: swimming, keep swimming. Would you recommend businesses, um, 00:42:42 Speaker 1: You know, perhaps a bit further back down the road than you are now. Take the time to get involved with award submissions. What's your advice on, you know, on that whole process? 00:42:56 Speaker 2: I think I personally think it's really good because we don't have huge marketing spend and being able to get our name out there is massive. Um, I also think the process, um, 00:43:08 Speaker 2: Of doing those applications, you learn about your business, like it really helps you focus and helps you understand what some of your weaknesses are. Um, certainly the Telstra one is really comprehensive. The last stage took me about 14 hours to do stage 3. 00:43:26 Speaker 1: Huge submissions, yeah, 00:43:27 Speaker 2: and just going over it and going over it again and going, oh, actually that sounds shit. I need to rewrite that one again. 00:43:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I did learn a lot. I've actually learned so much and I'm really focused now because of those on, OK, where's the financial weakness? What do I need to do, um, really delving deep into, are my ads working or is my website conversion not working? Like which part is the weakness and 00:43:56 Speaker 1: a real 00:43:56 Speaker 1: deep dive. Yeah, 00:43:58 Speaker 2: really understanding. 00:44:00 Speaker 2: Um, 00:44:02 Speaker 2: What I need to do to get. 00:44:04 Speaker 1: So even not taking or even if you weren't to take away the wing, it would certainly provide you with a pretty comprehensive to do list. Yeah. As the founder and driver of this business, what are some of the personal characteristics that you have that has enabled you to be so successful in this business so 00:44:23 Speaker 1: far? 00:44:24 Speaker 2: I'm um. 00:44:27 Speaker 2: Really tenacious, yeah, and determined. Yeah, um, and I'm really optimistic. 00:44:36 Speaker 2: And so. 00:44:38 Speaker 2: And 00:44:40 Speaker 2: Hopefully I'm open to failure too, you know, like I, certainly on a theoretical level, I do understand that failure is part of succeeding and that you, that's how you learn, um. 00:44:53 Speaker 2: So yeah, I think. 00:44:56 Speaker 2: I'm really driven. That has helped me. 00:44:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. So when you talk about, you know, a failure, have you had sort of one big failure that you can 00:45:08 Speaker 1: You know, recollect fairly recently that you have learned from and, and got back up from. 00:45:17 Speaker 2: So many failures, let me 00:45:18 Speaker 1: think. What's the stand out? 00:45:20 Speaker 2: I guess it goes back to marketing again, where I was working with a freelancer and um. 00:45:28 Speaker 2: I believed, I mean, I think they were great in some level, but the maths that they were doing and what we needed as a return to still, 00:45:41 Speaker 2: Be growing as a business and having the impact we have, um, was a bit off, and I think I should have fully taken responsibility for those numbers, rather than trust somebody else. Yeah, because on retrospect, it's kind of caused us to 00:45:58 Speaker 2: Really, um, slow down on our sales and our revenue. So, OK, had to really stop and take and I've learned so much from that, that's why I'm going so deep. Yeah, because I really have to take responsibility for it and understand the metrics and. 00:46:15 Speaker 2: Yeah. What does my average order value you need to be and 00:46:20 Speaker 1: what's your return on ads been looking like? 00:46:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's wrong with the site? Is it converting where it needs to or um. 00:46:28 Speaker 2: And the creative and yeah. 00:46:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's interesting. It was definitely a bit of a fail though. I tried for 6 months. It's really affected, 00:46:38 Speaker 1: and that's a bit of fair chunk of revenue too, isn't it? 6 months of marketing

phase. I 00:46:43 Speaker 2: really wanted to try. I was really like, yes, I'm gonna keep trying, yeah, yeah. But because at the same time, you know, you speak to anybody about ads, you can't just make 00:46:54 Speaker 2: You have to at least give them 4 weeks, like the 00:46:57 Speaker 2: learning phase and things 00:46:58 Speaker 1: like yeah. But 00:47:00 Speaker 2: yeah, I think that's a bit of a fail. Yeah. There's so many. Yeah, yeah, 00:47:05 Speaker 1: yeah. So what happens? You just suck it up and go, right, I need to educate myself more on this. 00:47:11 Speaker 2: Yeah. 00:47:12 Speaker 1: Terminate the contract and work out what your next step is. Yeah, right. Here's another question that I often ask entrepreneurs, because I'm always surprised at the answer. Do you, or maybe have you in the past, encountered self-doubt and or impostor syndrome? We've talked about, you know, your moments of, of self-doubt, maybe. Um, but are there any moments where you've 00:47:39 Speaker 1: I've actually almost felt paralyzed by 00:47:41 Speaker 1: it. 00:47:42 Speaker 2: The biggest gift for me has been turning 50. So after I turned 50, all of that gets a lot easier. So any women that are under 50, just, you know, you have that to look forward to. I can't speak for a man, but a lot of my friends feel the same. And I feel like 00:47:58 Speaker 2: Actually, I have 22 years doing underwear. Actually, I'm gonna, I'm the right person to be doing this, you know, like, yeah, there are a lot of reasons I'm in the position I am right now to do this. It's not a random thing. And so, and I know a lot about sustainability and so these things have come together. So I actually don't feel imposter syndrome, um, but I have when I was younger, so I do, I'm not like full narcissist that. 00:48:26 Speaker 1: You're not immune to it. You've, 00:48:29 Speaker 2: I have. 00:48:30 Speaker 1: And how did you work through it at that time when you were experiencing it? 00:48:33 Speaker 2: I 00:48:34 Speaker 2: think I found it incredibly stressful. Yeah, and I think I felt like everybody else knew more than I knew and 00:48:41 Speaker 2: Why would they be interested in me, you know, I think it's, I think it's really challenging. But thank God as you get older, it just gets a bit easier. 00:48:50 Speaker 1: And I think like you'd mentioned, you know, some of your personal characteristics like tenacity and determination can actually push you through that to an extent, right? Because you're so committed to your vision. 00:49:05 Speaker 1: And you've got that real determination that it may visit you and sit, you know, alongside you, but it's not going to stop you. 00:49:15 Speaker 2: There 00:49:15 Speaker 2: is one thing I think that's worth mentioning and that is um 00:49:19 Speaker 2: Remembering that the cause is much bigger than you as an individual, and so I can always lean on that. If I start to get in my head. I love that. And so, for example, I don't like being in front of the camera. I don't like any attention at all, actually. um, and so doing video content is important for the brand because people want to know. 00:49:43 Speaker 2: Who's behind the brand and are you full of shit or you know are you legit. So I understand for a believability thing like I do have to do video content, which I've gotten more used to and um I do it, I don't even look at it. I just post it. Yeah. And it's because I, I have got into my head now that 00:50:03 Speaker 2: Actually, it's not about me. It's not me at all. And and no one else notices that my voice sounded funny there or why were you wearing that top? Like no one else cares. So it's like, whatever, just post it. If you can donate another 10 pairs of undies because of that video, that's what's important. Yeah, yeah. 00:50:23 Speaker 1: 100%. 100% think of the stay focused on that bigger cause. It's not about you. Yeah, I love it. 00:50:30 Speaker 1: What do you value most about your business journey so far? 00:50:35 Speaker 2: Um, I just love that I work with my values. I just feel so lucky that I every day am doing that. I'm not compromising. Yeah, there's things I don't want to do. I don't like doing budgets and 00:50:54 Speaker 2: Um, 00:50:55 Speaker 2: Marketing. I don't love doing marketing. Like I said, I love stories. 00:51:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love storytelling, but like connection. I like connection with people, but marketing to sell things I don't like at all, um. 00:51:10 Speaker 2: But I do, I'm not compromising on what I believe in, and that's a very fortunate position to be in. I'm aware of that, very fortunate. I spent a lot of time in my career having to do that. Yeah, 00:51:23 Speaker 1: that's incredible. Yeah. So for the listener who has started out on their own business journey might be a struggling a little bit with their business mojo, what pills of wisdom would you share? 00:51:36 Speaker 2: I think like working with your heart rather than your head is really important and what is what feels right for you and that will tell you really quickly, like your body has all the answers actually, um. 00:51:49 Speaker 2: If you can feel in what feels right for you, I think just to check that you're on track, you know, sometimes we dig our heels in when we don't, we need to let go and, and sometimes we really just need to like, work hard at it, and it's sometimes really hard to differentiate those, but really just try and connect in and feel what's right for your journey and what you're being called to do. 00:52:12 Speaker 1: And cut out the noise, right? 00:52:15 Speaker 1: What about the listener who's looking at a social enterprise or not for profit business model? What can you share that would have been good to know when you started over, when you started out, I should say. 00:52:26 Speaker 1: But 00:52:28 Speaker 2: Um, what I wish I'd known. 00:52:31 Speaker 2: Um, is that there are some really good networks that

you can plug into early on, like Senvic, um, yeah, where you can connect with other social enterprises, know what else is going on out there, um, social events and things, just to stop that isolation and get a real feeling for the whole sector. And that's how I met Social Engine, by the way, who does the pick and pack. 00:52:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, um, yeah, from a Sanvic thing that my friend took me to. I didn't know about it, but she took me in. Yeah, yeah, 00:53:05 Speaker 1: perfect, yeah. 00:53:07 Speaker 1: So where do you see underwear for humanity in the next 5 years? How exciting developments have you got happening? 00:53:14 Speaker 2: I would really love to have a good presence at retail. Like, I would love a 3 pack of undies and Woolies, so you, you can just grab them and actually you're having massive impact in the background. Something like, yeah, it doesn't have to be Woolies, but yeah, that's what I imagine like a retail presence. Yeah, um. 00:53:34 Speaker 2: And I'm working on that with some smaller retailers, and hopefully that just grows into being something really substantial. Yeah, yeah. 00:53:42 Speaker 1: Beautiful. I love it. And, um, what, you know, how do you see the ethical fashion industry evolving and, and what role do you see your business playing in that evolution? 00:53:57 Speaker 2: I think that fashion. 00:54:01 Speaker 2: Has so many fundamental flaws, um. 00:54:07 Speaker 2: When I was studying over 20 years ago, then I came back exactly almost 20 years later, actually I started um sustainability, fashion sustainability and, 00:54:19 Speaker 2: It was so interesting like reflecting on my thesis 20 years before and then working on the problem 20 years later and my thesis was around, 00:54:29 Speaker 1: isn't it? Like 00:54:30 Speaker 2: 20 years was an explosion of fast fashion. Yeah, it really like we think it's normal now, but actually it's only very recent. we're talking 20 years and billions upon billions of clothing waste, clogging up waterways. 00:54:48 Speaker 2: Um, 00:54:49 Speaker 2: Yeah, methane release as it breaks down, like it's just it's such a massive problem and ethical, um, yeah, people are still, people are obviously going super fast to try and be sustainable because there's consumer pressure as well, so much consumer pressure um but ethical, I think, which is a little bit less visible. I, I wonder. 00:55:15 Speaker 2: If it's going fast enough at all, to be honest. I went to um a sustainable clothing forum in um Singapore and normally it's in the northern hemisphere and they said, um, cause it's close to makers, they'd have the voice of makers at this one and it was incredible to hear some of the unions from um Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and India and how the women are working. 00:55:45 Speaker 2: Very, very, very long hours but can't afford more than one meal a day to feed their family, and. 00:55:54 Speaker 2: The immoral thing as well is so much sacrifice is made for something. 00:56:00 Speaker 2: In the global north, including Australia, rich countries where something can be worn once or not even worn, still has the tags on it. All of the emissions that have happened to get that there, but all of the people's lives that have been affected, it's, it's quite, it's quite scary. There's a lot to be done still. Yeah. It's a lot of it is invisible. 00:56:24 Speaker 1: Yeah, 00:56:25 Speaker 1: yeah. So what 00:56:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, what, what role do you hope your business will play in all this work that still needs to be done? 00:56:36 Speaker 2: Hopefully people see what's possible, you know, that it's possible to do. 00:56:43 Speaker 2: To go quite deep with um, how, how things are ethically created, um. 00:56:50 Speaker 2: And certifications and. 00:56:54 Speaker 2: Not that they're perfect. I'm not saying certifications and everything, but they're definitely a start. Um, hopefully it's a good influence on the industry. Yeah, 00:57:08 Speaker 1: yeah, yeah, I 00:57:09 Speaker 2: just, I just think we need to see it, you know, the more examples we see, the more opportunity there is for change. 00:57:16 Speaker 1: So really pushing your brand awareness. 00:57:20 Speaker 1: I, yeah, would be a key focus to, to really show people how it's done. 00:57:26 Speaker 1: Good on you, Kelly. I could speak to you all night, but we don't have all night. Um, this was so worth the wait. I've loved spending time with you today. Thank you for making time in your busy Melbourne schedule. I really, really do appreciate. I loved hearing your business journey, the ins and outs of it, um, 00:57:50 Speaker 1: You're so authentic and, um, your brand is so authentic and it's so refreshing. It's so refreshing. So, 00:57:59 Speaker 2: thank 00:57:59 Speaker 2: you. Thanks. You've 00:58:01 Speaker 2: inspired. 00:58:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've, you've inspired me to actually really reconnect with my obligations. So I'm sure you're gonna do the same for all of our lovely listeners. So thank you. 00:58:12 Speaker 2: Thank you 00:58:13 Speaker 2: so much. 00:58:14 Speaker 1: Pleasure. Thank you. 00:58:19 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us here on the buzz. For episode highlights and nuggets of inspiration to keep you motivated in your business, head to Karen Heartbuzz on Instagram. This podcast is available on all streaming platforms. I would love it if you could subscribe, rate, comment, and of course, share the buzz.