Full Transcript for What I Got Wrong About Bitcoin Self-Custody | Bitcoin Banter

just presumed it was. So it was, you know, 2017, the price started rocketing. And so that was the bit that sort of made me be like, something's happening here, you know, and it already happened once and it come down. So I already knew that. 23 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:51,380 and then it was like 2018 when it just then crashed I thought yeah that was obviously a bubble it was just a massive I knew it was gonna in my head I was like yeah I knew that was what it was and it just kind of reaffirmed what I thought I knew and then it wasn't really until sort of 2020 you know when COVID happened and there was lockdown then it was kind of like then I was doing a deeper research into what Bitcoin actually is and then it made me realize oh this is this is way more 24 00:02:51,380 --> 00:02:59,180 more than just a hedge against inflation or something like gold, which is kind of what I thought it was originally. 25 00:02:59,180 --> 00:03:05,400 But I just always thought someone would be able to bug pull you, like what happened with all the altcoins and everything. 26 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,940 And so even then, though, I was very much like, oh, I know what I'll do is the shiny object. 27 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:19,480 I will understand about altcoins because they go up far more than Bitcoin and then I'll convert that back to Bitcoin. 28 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:47,200 So it really wasn't until 2022, 2023 when I was really like, yeah, it is like Bitcoin through and through. So that's when I think in maybe in like 2020, I think a friend had told me about how you're supposed to buy what I just thought was a USB stick to stick your Bitcoin or altcoins onto. So that was my first kind of exposure. I think I bought a ledger in around 2020. 29 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:59,720 I didn't actually put anything on it for about two years, which is actually then how I then ended up losing some Bitcoin. I don't know if you want me to just dive into that now or come back to that in a bit. 30 00:04:00,340 --> 00:04:09,180 So let's come back to that in a minute. Katie, why don't you give sort of an overview of your journey through custody? And then I want to hear the rest of Mike's story as well. 31 00:04:09,180 --> 00:04:32,140 Sure. I think I was interested about the same time as Mike when the price shot up in 2017. That's when it first came on my radar. But I did not understand what Bitcoin was. I thought it was like a share. So I saw the price going up. I thought, OK, maybe I should buy some of this stuff. 32 00:04:32,140 --> 00:04:34,140 and I signed up. 33 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:36,480 I had no concept of what an exchange was. 34 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,160 I'd never heard of the likes of Kraken 35 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,400 or anything like that. 36 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,340 And at the time I was living in Hong Kong, 37 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:44,200 I signed up for a Hong Kong exchange. 38 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,060 If I remember correctly, it was called Coingate.

39 00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:50,400 And I signed up, I did the KYC, 40 00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:51,860 you know, it was quite a process. 41 00:04:52,460 --> 00:04:55,500 It wasn't as straightforward as it is nowadays. 42 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:58,460 And once I'd finally got through it, 43 00:04:58,740 --> 00:05:00,420 I didn't do anything at first. 44 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:01,880 So the next step would have been to send money 45 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:17,817 and I just kind of I looked at that and I went oh this isn for me you know it obviously 46 00:05:17,817 --> 00:05:23,797 I conflated the Bitcoin with the exchange that went bankrupt it's obviously you know a scam 47 00:05:23,797 --> 00:05:34,757 and I didn't do anything further until 2000 very beginning of 2021 Celsius came onto my radar 48 00:05:34,757 --> 00:05:39,937 and I'm sure quite a few viewers have already heard of Celsius 49 00:05:39,937 --> 00:05:45,517 but the short version is it was a custodian or a custodial platform 50 00:05:45,517 --> 00:05:49,777 that eventually in 2022 went into bankruptcy 51 00:05:49,777 --> 00:05:51,817 but they were paying very high yields 52 00:05:51,817 --> 00:05:54,657 and they were paying yields not only on Bitcoin 53 00:05:54,657 --> 00:05:58,297 but they were paying actually far higher yields on altcoins 54 00:05:58,297 --> 00:06:03,997 and you could opt whether to have the yield paid to you 55 00:06:03,997 --> 00:06:05,117 in their own token. 56 00:06:05,377 --> 00:06:06,317 And when I first heard of it, 57 00:06:06,357 --> 00:06:08,077 I sat down and I looked at it and I thought, 58 00:06:08,397 --> 00:06:10,937 so they can make their own token 59 00:06:10,937 --> 00:06:13,677 and they can destroy their own token. 60 00:06:14,277 --> 00:06:15,657 This doesn't make any sense to me. 61 00:06:15,717 --> 00:06:16,617 This seems like a scam, 62 00:06:16,737 --> 00:06:19,717 but I actually talked myself out of that. 63 00:06:19,817 --> 00:06:21,457 I thought, no, I know all these other people 64 00:06:21,457 --> 00:06:21,997 that are using it. 65 00:06:22,017 --> 00:06:23,157 Look how much money they're making. 66 00:06:23,877 --> 00:06:24,897 I'm going to give it a go. 67 00:06:24,897 --> 00:06:26,577 So, and the rest is history. 68 00:06:26,697 --> 00:06:28,157 Of course, they went bankrupt 2022. 69 00:06:28,897 --> 00:06:30,117 When they went bankrupt, 70 00:06:30,117 --> 00:06:35,357 I did actually still hold some Bitcoin outside of the Celsius platform 71 00:06:35,357 --> 00:06:38,697 This is actually quite bad 72 00:06:38,697 --> 00:06:40,177 I had it on FTX 73 00:06:40,177 --> 00:06:44,377 So I know, I know 74 00:06:44,377 --> 00:06:49,077 I was involved in every scam in Bitcoin 75 00:06:49,077 --> 00:06:52,237 So I had Bitcoin on FTX 76 00:06:52,237 --> 00:06:56,097 And I had the foresight to take it off FTX at that point in time 77 00:06:56,097 --> 00:06:57,317 So what did I do? 78 00:06:57,697 --> 00:06:59,357 I was just telling Michael what I did 79 00:06:59,357 --> 00:07:01,937 I went on Amazon and I bought a ledger 80 00:07:01,937 --> 00:07:02,937 so 81 00:07:02,937 --> 00:07:07,437 what not to do 82 00:07:07,437 --> 00:07:09,837 yes don't 83 00:07:09,837 --> 00:07:11,177 don't try this at home people 84 00:07:11,177 --> 00:07:13,337 so fortunately 85 00:07:13,337 --> 00:07:14,837 fortunately 86 00:07:14,837 --> 00:07:17,537 I got I obviously got the real thing because 87 00:07:17,537 --> 00:07:19,557 my Bitcoin stayed safe for a few 88 00:07:19,557 --> 00:07:21,677 years on the ledger and 89 00:07:21,677 --> 00:07:23,317 then I got to the point where 90 00:07:23,317 --> 00:07:25,517 I got some of the Bitcoin back from 91 00:07:25,517 --> 00:07:27,157 Celsius I also 92 00:07:27,157 --> 00:07:28,737 transferred that to my ledger 93 00:07:28,737 --> 00:07:58,717 and then I had a fairly substantial amount of Bitcoin sitting just on this little stick and of course I still didn't really have the concept of what it was. I thought my Bitcoin lived on this little stick and then I got a notification from Ledger that that particular model was being phased out and I thought oh gosh I'm going to have to upgrade my hardware and then eventually through quite a long process I ended up with the Bitcoin way because I started looking at things like cold cards because I heard they were the best hardware wallet out there. 94 00:07:58,737 --> 00:08:17,577 and I also found all these recommended hardware wallets quite a little bit confusing because I'm not really sure how to use these. So that's how I ended up at the Bitcoin way and eventually in full self custody. 95 00:08:17,577 --> 00:08:47,557 Amazing. Okay, so I'm going to give a real quick summary of mine because I think a lot of people have listened to the channel know approximately my story. But I found Bitcoin in 2022, started down the crypto rabbit hole, very quickly was directed to some Bitcoin only content. I was a maxi halfway through the year. And so about six months in, I liquidated all my shit coins and decided relatively quickly, probably within a year of becoming a maxi, I need to take better custody. Like I'd heard not your keys, not your coins enough to get off a Coinbase or whatever. 96 00:08:47,577 --> 00:08:49,577 whatever crappy exchange I was in. 97 00:08:49,577 --> 00:08:52,577 And I went to a collaborative custody provider. 98 00:08:52,577 --> 00:08:54,577 And for a while that was fine. 99 00:08:54,577 --> 00:08:57,577 And then they started to support some other shit coins. 100 00:08:57,577 --> 00:09:00,577 And I thought this isn't quite what I was hoping it was. 101 00:09:00,577 --> 00:09:02,577 I couldn't run a node and I heard that was really important. 102 00:09:02,577 --> 00:09:03,577 Didn't understand why though. 103 00:09:03,577 --> 00:09:08,577 And eventually heard Tony actually on a podcast at the end of 2023 104 00:09:08,577 --> 00:09:12,577 and signed up really quickly after having a call with them. 105 00:09:12,577

--> 00:09:14,577 Because I realized like if I want to like be my own bank, 106 00:09:14,577 --> 00:09:16,577 do all the things that we talk about in Bitcoin, 107 00:09:16,577 --> 00:09:44,817 Bitcoin. I have to run a node. I have to stop sharing my keys. I want privacy. And so I was sort of on the journey towards self-sovereignty, not just being a Bitcoiner, which I think is kind of like a fundamental mindset shift that I think many people have to make when they choose to go into proper 100% self-custody. Okay, so Katie, you did everything wrong until you found the Bitcoin way. Mike, why don't you continue on your journey into self-custody? 108 00:09:44,817 --> 00:10:12,477 Yeah, so it just kind of went from bad to worse really. So on that ledger, like I said, I didn't put anything on it for a couple of years because I was just like, why do I need this USB stick when I can't remember what ones I was using at the time. You know, there's so many that I've probably used, probably Coinbase or Binance or some of those sort of ones. I just didn't really understand why that was important. Like I said, that sort of came 2022 time roughly. 109 00:10:12,477 --> 00:10:17,997 I think the FTX thing sped up that learning process as well. 110 00:10:17,997 --> 00:10:30,373 You know and there was quite a few things in 2022 What else was in 2022 Was any of the other things Katie that you It Celsius FTX Three Arrows BlockFi I got out of 111 00:10:30,373 --> 00:10:31,753 BlockFi right before 112 00:10:31,753 --> 00:10:33,893 they crashed. 113 00:10:34,673 --> 00:10:36,453 All of that stuff 114 00:10:36,453 --> 00:10:38,313 just kind of really sped 115 00:10:38,313 --> 00:10:39,933 up that learning and being like, okay, 116 00:10:40,673 --> 00:10:42,193 this is why it's important 117 00:10:42,193 --> 00:10:43,213 to self-custody. 118 00:10:44,133 --> 00:10:46,033 So then I was like, right, I'll just 119 00:10:46,033 --> 00:10:47,933 send some to my ledger 120 00:10:47,933 --> 00:10:50,793 and tried to make a transfer. 121 00:10:51,533 --> 00:10:52,553 Went and looked on Ledger. 122 00:10:52,613 --> 00:10:53,913 I was like, why is my Bitcoin not there? 123 00:10:53,993 --> 00:10:55,993 You know, I only did a small amount 124 00:10:55,993 --> 00:10:58,073 because I'd heard it's a good idea to test it. 125 00:10:58,573 --> 00:11:00,553 I probably did it like three or four times 126 00:11:00,553 --> 00:11:02,693 because I just don't understand why this isn't working. 127 00:11:02,833 --> 00:11:04,513 Like I'm doing everything right. 128 00:11:05,133 --> 00:11:08,413 In the end, I think I called or emailed Ledger 129 00:11:08,413 --> 00:11:10,773 and like got on social support team. 130 00:11:10,873 --> 00:11:12,293 I think I might've actually had a phone call 131 00:11:12,293 --> 00:11:15,393 and they went and looked for me 132 00:11:15,393 --> 00:11:21,073 and they said, you have done everything right. It's just that it's going straight out of your 133 00:11:21,073 -->

00:11:27,873 account every time. Because what I had done, not even remembering, when I first got my ledger, 134 00:11:27,993 --> 00:11:33,053 it says these 12 words are really important to put them somewhere safe. So I put them in a password 135 00:11:33,053 --> 00:11:38,973 app on my phone thinking, oh, well then that's really safe. That's where I put my passwords and 136 00:11:38,973 --> 00:11:43,673 things. So I would do that. And then obviously what had happened is someone had got hold of them 137 00:11:43,673 --> 00:11:46,233 and they just had a bot or whatever. 138 00:11:46,413 --> 00:11:47,913 And as soon as it landed in my account, 139 00:11:47,953 --> 00:11:50,693 it was just being swept out into somewhere else. 140 00:11:50,833 --> 00:11:53,533 And so luckily I never transferred a huge amount. 141 00:11:53,853 --> 00:11:55,833 But again, it just made me realize like, 142 00:11:56,713 --> 00:11:58,173 this is far more conflict. 143 00:11:58,333 --> 00:12:00,313 You know, like you say, you hear not your keys, 144 00:12:00,393 --> 00:12:03,073 not your coins and, you know, just figure it out. 145 00:12:03,073 --> 00:12:05,213 Go on YouTube, go and figure out 146 00:12:05,213 --> 00:12:06,513 how to self-custody yourself. 147 00:12:06,673 --> 00:12:09,353 And it's like, there's so much more to this 148 00:12:09,353 --> 00:12:11,453 than just go and figure it out. 149 00:12:11,553 --> 00:12:13,513 There's so many ways that people can get ruined. 150 00:12:13,513 --> 00:12:42,353 and then obviously with cold card happening this year, I just think that's people that are like 99% more paranoid than most Bitcoiners, let alone the rest of the world. And it still went wrong for them. And so it's just a bit of a minefield really, like when you're first getting into this. And I wish I just knew something like the Bitcoin way even existed before. 151 00:12:42,353 --> 00:12:47,693 or all of these mistakes, but it's a learning process. 152 00:12:47,933 --> 00:12:50,853 And I think kind of everyone goes on their own journey really to get there. 153 00:12:51,913 --> 00:12:55,033 Yeah. Okay. So for both of you and Katie, I'll let you answer this one first. 154 00:12:55,993 --> 00:13:05,833 Why, so your background, why did you go straight from sort of, I guess, broadly trusting, you know, an exchange? 155 00:13:05,833 --> 00:13:11,313 I guess you tried the ledger for a little bit, but it doesn't sound like you were in like collaborative custody 156 00:13:11,313 --> 00:13:13,333 or at least not for any long period of time. 157 00:13:14,353 --> 00:13:18,393 Why, it seems like that's a common in-between, 158 00:13:18,633 --> 00:13:21,713 I guess, between, it feels like kind of my keys, 159 00:13:21,893 --> 00:13:22,753 kind of my coins. 160 00:13:22,753 --> 00:13:24,693 If you're sitting in the middle of an exchange 161 00:13:24,693 --> 00:13:25,813 in full self-custody, 162 00:13:26,313 --> 00:13:29,213 why did you go straight to 100% self-custody? 163 00:13:29,413 --> 00:13:31,293 And did you have any concerns in doing so? 164 00:13:32,433 --> 00:13:36,793 So I think that the transition for me, 165 00:13:36,933 --> 00:13:39,093 the transition from understanding that, 166 00:13:39,093 --> 00:13:41,093 the first step was understanding that 167 00:13:41,093 --> 00:13:46,693 I don't have to have someone else holding this on my behalf. I don't have to have 168 00:13:46,693 --> 00:13:54,473 Celsius holding it. I don't have to have FTX or anybody else holding it. And so the first step 169 00:13:54,473 --> 00:14:01,033 for me was understanding that, yes, I had the power to transfer it to something that I held. 170 00:14:02,193 --> 00:14:10,373 But although I was able to muddle my way through it, I was able to get that Bitcoin 171 00:14:10,373 --> 00:14:17,953 from, in this case, FTX onto my ledger, 172 00:14:18,193 --> 00:14:19,433 or as I understood it, 173 00:14:19,473 --> 00:14:22,493 I transferred it from FTX to my ledger. 174 00:14:23,673 --> 00:14:27,613 I probably sat on it for a couple of years, 175 00:14:28,093 --> 00:14:29,373 maybe three years, 176 00:14:29,793 --> 00:14:31,973 without being fully comfortable 177 00:14:31,973 --> 00:14:37,253 with what I had and what I was doing. 178 00:14:37,253 --> 00:14:42,113 and I certainly was in the category of people 179 00:14:42,113 --> 00:14:46,033 that do understand, okay, I should be using self-custody 180 00:14:46,033 --> 00:14:49,173 and then it's like you do it once and you forget about it 181 00:14:49,173 --> 00:14:49,953 and that's what I did. 182 00:14:50,213 --> 00:14:51,493 I transferred everything. 183 00:14:52,133 --> 00:14:58,873 I put my ledger in a drawer and I forgot about it 184 00:14:58,873 --> 00:15:01,213 and then maybe about nine months later, 185 00:15:01,653 --> 00:15:04,773 I thought, oh, I should get that out 186 00:15:04,773 --> 00:15:06,473 and make sure I know how it works. 187 00:15:07,253 --> 00:15:13,033 and I got it out and then I had a problem with the firmware on the ledger. It would not update, 188 00:15:13,113 --> 00:15:18,153 it just kept getting stuck. I couldn't use the ledger and I knew enough at that point to know 189 00:15:18,153 --> 00:15:24,953 that it wasn't gone forever because I knew I had that seed phrase and I knew that I could use that 190 00:15:24,953 --> 00:15:29,193 seed phrase to restore and that's another thing that I managed to muddle through. I managed to get 191 00:15:29,193 --> 00:15:44,370 another ledger and then restore my Bitcoin onto that ledger but I kind of going oh that just feels like it was you know I got a bit lucky but what else could happen here And I just didn feel comfortable at all 192 00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:49,570 And I was like, okay, well, now I don't know what to do with my seed phrase. I made the mistake. So 193 00:15:49,570 --> 00:15:54,270 when I, with my initial setup, just to check one more box, because between the three of us, 194 00:15:54,290 --> 00:16:00,130 I

think we've checked all the boxes of things that you shouldn't do. But just to check one more box, 195 00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:07,030 how did I keep my seed phrase? I wrote it down on the little card that came in the ledger box 196 00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:12,850 and I thought gosh what would happen if I lose this? I know I'll photograph it so I kept it 197 00:16:12,850 --> 00:16:19,890 I kept it in a photograph on my phone and I thought gosh you know that's a really good idea 198 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:23,950 that's a smart idea it's secure now because I can't lose it it's always in my phone 199 00:16:23,950 --> 00:16:28,130 and then I learned, you know, as time went on, you learn things like 200 00:16:28,130 --> 00:16:34,310 don't take photographs of your seed phrase, don't type it into a computer, you know, don't 201 00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:42,810 don't store it in a, read it, exactly, like there's so many things you have no idea and so I think I 202 00:16:42,810 --> 00:16:49,470 just got to the point where I was like, I feel like I know just enough to be dangerous but not 203 00:16:49,470 --> 00:16:56,950 enough to protect what I have properly. And I was also interested in the aspect of running a node or 204 00:16:56,950 --> 00:17:00,710 learning how to set up a minor, those kinds of things. And I had no idea where to start with that. 205 00:17:00,870 --> 00:17:06,610 So that's why I decided to go the full thing into full self-custody. 206 00:17:07,470 --> 00:17:13,690 Were you worried about any, did you have concerns, reservations about doing that? 207 00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:18,110 Or did it just seem obvious at that point? Yeah. Because for a lot of people, 208 00:17:18,110 --> 00:17:23,210 they have their concerns about I could mess something up or am I going to create a single point of failure? 209 00:17:24,030 --> 00:17:26,210 I think those are common concerns people have. 210 00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:32,550 I already had those concerns so that's why I was looking for kind of the next step in the process. 211 00:17:33,030 --> 00:17:34,170 In terms of guidance. 212 00:17:34,990 --> 00:17:35,510 Exactly. 213 00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:43,570 So Mike, what was it for you that you said, I need a break from everything that I've been doing. 214 00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:45,670 I need 100% self-custody 215 00:17:45,670 --> 00:17:47,570 I need to cut all the counterparty risk 216 00:17:47,570 --> 00:17:49,650 and did you have any concerns as you 217 00:17:49,650 --> 00:17:50,550 made that transition? 218 00:17:51,610 --> 00:17:53,670 Yeah, I mean it was very similar really 219 00:17:53,670 --> 00:17:56,010 you know, I just, my setup was just 220 00:17:56,010 --> 00:17:57,790 one set of seed 221 00:17:57,790 --> 00:17:59,710 phrase and if that 222 00:17:59,710 --> 00:18:01,670 goes then, you know, I think 223 00:18:01,670 --> 00:18:03,790 I'd put it onto some metal or something 224 00:18:03,790 --> 00:18:05,730 inscribed on some cheap Amazon 225 00:18:05,730

--> 00:18:07,450 piece of metal that 226 00:18:07,450 --> 00:18:09,910 I'd scratched and probably wouldn't even last 227 00:18:09,910 --> 00:18:11,350 in a fire even if that 228 00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:41,330 even if something happened there and it was just I think that was that was really the the big thing for me was that I knew I I'd hurt by this stage I probably watched I ended up going down the rabbit hole of watching YouTube videos on how to do multi-sig and all these fancy different ways of doing it and it was almost a bit overwhelming as well you know it was just like I I kind of get what I'm supposed to do here and I think like you know if I just sat down and followed 229 00:18:41,330 --> 00:19:06,330 I enjoyed this video and kept pausing it and kept following it. I'm sure I could do it, but it was kind of also just, is this the best way? And is there something else I'm going to be missing? The other huge part for me was inheritance. I was just like, how am I going to pass this on to someone else sort of thing without doing something like collaborative custody? 230 00:19:06,330 --> 00:19:35,270 I kind of already decided I didn't really want to go down that route of a multi-sig with another company just because of privacy and other reasons that I'm sure is the reason why you kind of came out of it as well Michael so yeah for me that was it I just wanted I just wanted assurance that what I was doing is the best possible way to do it and someone else to help me because like I said I could have figured it out by myself I know I could have but equally 231 00:19:35,270 --> 00:19:44,330 it's just the time and actually that dedicated space and time to actually sit down and do it which I just was never finding myself 232 00:19:44,330 --> 00:20:04,210 yeah and I think too like optimizing your setup right because there are ways of securing a seed phrase or a passphrase or you know your pin code for a hardware wallet like there are ways that you can do that securely and there are better ways that you can do it securely and more easily and have things accessible where and when you need them like 233 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:34,150 unless you do this a lot of times, it's easy to miss details that just make things better and smoother. And I think that's the value of having someone train you who spends all day going through it. For me, I think my transition into self-custody, my disdain for the state was growing. And what I realized is that my collaborative custody provider I was working with was not doing me any assistance. There was no benefit using them in terms of opting out of the system. 234 00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:49,990 so to speak if I could just sort of be vague. I knew that they knew who I was. I knew that they knew how much Bitcoin I held. They knew when I moved my Bitcoin, they could share any of that information under duress with any government agency or any, they're going to comply with that sort of 235 00:20:50,011 --> 00:21:17,211 Additionally, just practically, I think maybe what resonated when I heard Tony on this podcast was the point he made was Bitcoin is only Bitcoin if you have it in 100% self-custody. And I would literally get emails every few months where they're like, hey, we have system maintenance from 10 p.m. to midnight on Tuesday, so don't send any Bitcoin. I was like, this is permission. Now my Bitcoin is permissioned. 236 00:21:17,211 --> 00:21:47,191 technically could I recover my Bitcoin through a complex process to another wallet somewhere else and still transact during those times and then migrate back okay fine but practically speaking I wasn't going to do that every time they had system maintenance and it was it was like a wake-up call for me that I only get to use my Bitcoin when when there isn't downtime on their end and could the government come in and say we're going to have permanent downtime and now all of your 237 00:21:47,191 --> 00:22:05,151 and I feel comfortable doing that. Most of the people who fill out our security survey on our website and who are in collaborative custody do not feel comfortable. Like 25% of them feel comfortable recovering their Bitcoin if their collaborative custody provider went under. So not a good place to be in for many people. 238 00:22:05,151 --> 00:22:21,691 Okay, question for both of you. Mike, would you consider yourself a technical person? Were you confident going into self-custody like you had the technical chops to make it happen or were there reservations on that front? 239 00:22:21,691 --> 00:22:50,431 Yeah, I think I'm very much a dive headfirst and figure it out as I go kind of person. I've always done that in my life. Even with what I'm doing now for work-wise is just very much I have figured it out by myself. So I'm very aware that I can figure anything out. But also, I'm very aware that I save so much time and headache and I still get things wrong. 240 00:22:50,431 --> 00:23:10,751 So even like I say, I know myself when I just dive into something, I often get things wrong and then work back and figure it out like what I did wrong. Whereas with something like this, you can't do that. And I'd already done that a few times. And so it was like, I just don't want to even risk it. 241 00:23:10,751 --> 00:23:39,471 and why not it I think for a while I had already decided that I wanted to do this and make sure it was done properly um and so yeah for me it was just it was just a case of using someone else's expertise to speed up the process and make sure what I'm doing is actually as good as it can be because you I mean I started going in fact you know I think I did go to Prague 242 00:23:39,471 --> 00:23:44,971 maybe before I'd even used the Bitcoin. In fact, that's where I saw you guys speaking. 243 00:23:45,491 --> 00:23:49,871 And that was kind of what convinced me to, I was like, yeah, I'm definitely going to use these guys 244 00:23:49,871 --> 00:23:56,391 just because it was so aligned on so many

things. But before that, I hadn't really even been to a 245 00:23:56,391 --> 00:24:02,031 Bitcoin meetup or anything like that. And you can learn tons by doing that. Just by getting out and 246 00:24:02,031 --> 00:24:07,491 meeting other Bitcoiners, you can learn so much. But equally, it's like one of those things where 247 00:24:07,491 --> 00:24:10,691 If you're someone that you know in person, do you really want to be going through your 248 00:24:10,691 --> 00:24:16,051 exact setup with that person? Which again is something that's really handy about the Bitcoin 249 00:24:16,051 --> 00:24:22,371 way is that there is that kind of a bit of separation as well. It's that the person that 250 00:24:22,371 --> 00:24:29,171 knows your setup is not someone that lives 30 minutes away from you or something where you're 251 00:24:29,171 --> 00:24:34,531 just never quite sure. That's a really, really good point. And the other point I think you made 252 00:24:34,531 --> 00:25:04,511 that's important is this idea of there are some things that are too important to not do right the first time. I bought a 3D printer and I didn't buy someone's time to teach me how to use my 3D printer. It's inconsequential. I'm going to tinker and figure it out kind of the way that you describe your personality, Mike. When it comes to securing what I perceive to be generational wealth for my family, I'm not going to watch YouTube videos and guess my way to that. I could have. I've got a graduate degree in cybersecurity. 253 00:25:04,531 --> 00:25:08,591 probably could have figured this stuff out. I'm probably technical enough, 254 00:25:09,011 --> 00:25:17,011 but I've never done this particular thing. I would rather pay someone to train me who sits 255 00:25:17,011 --> 00:25:21,491 around all day, every day, teaching a very methodical and disciplined approach to doing 256 00:25:21,491 --> 00:25:26,371 that. I think that's an important distinction for people who are like, DIYers, that's great. 257 00:25:26,371 --> 00:25:31,831 Just make sure that you're weighing the... It's a cost-benefit analysis that you need to conduct, 258 00:25:31,831 --> 00:25:35,471 because if you believe Bitcoin is what I think the three of us believe it to be, 259 00:25:36,031 --> 00:25:39,611 it might be worth having someone at least spot checking what it is that you're doing 260 00:25:39,611 --> 00:25:41,271 and doing sort of an assessment of your setup. 261 00:25:41,891 --> 00:25:42,691 Katie, what about you? 262 00:25:43,071 --> 00:25:47,671 How do you think of yourself in terms of technical proficiency or anything like that? 263 00:25:50,191 --> 00:25:51,131 I'm okay. 264 00:25:51,271 --> 00:25:53,191 I'm probably better than your average person. 265 00:25:54,031 --> 00:26:07,025 And like Mike said I could have watched YouTube videos and figured the hardware wallet out setting up the node and all those kinds of things 266 00:26:07,565 --> 00:26:13,665 However, I didn't have any processes in place. So

it's like reinventing the wheel when somebody else 267 00:26:13,665 --> 00:26:22,145 already has the wheel and they can show me. So I could have done it probably. It would have taken 268 00:26:22,145 --> 00:26:30,765 me a long time, I wouldn't have felt confident and I probably would not have all the redundancy in place that I have right now. 269 00:26:31,425 --> 00:26:41,385 That's a really good point. Thinking through the redundancy, the backups, because there are a lot of people who obviously get concerned about single points of failure in a self-custody setup. 270 00:26:42,125 --> 00:26:49,045 And my pushback is always single points of failure are optional and your fault if that's what you choose to do. 271 00:26:49,045 --> 00:27:14,145 I would not stamp my seed phrase in one place and keep it there and set it with my passphrase if I'm in single SIG or I wouldn't carry around multiple keys for a multi-SIG at the same time. You can think about redundancy and backups and it doesn't even have to be complicated. It just needs to be thoughtful. If you've got trusted friends, you can share parts of seed phrases with them, keep them geographically dispersed. There are a lot of ways you can go about that. 272 00:27:14,145 --> 00:27:38,685 So the other thing I want to hit on here before we wrap up, because I think this is maybe one of my, one of the biggest takeaways for me as I moved to self-custody is sort of the empowerment that you feel, like you know how to do something, like you have gained skills that collaborative custody certainly exchanges, you're using training wheels, right? 273 00:27:38,685 --> 00:27:53,425 Like you can't go off-roading with training wheels and that's what Bitcoin in 100% self-custody allows. You can run a node and not only can you run a node, you begin to understand what it is and what it's doing and why it's so important for the health of the network and for your privacy and for other reasons. 274 00:27:53,425 --> 00:27:56,245 Sending your own transactions 275 00:27:56,245 --> 00:27:59,165 You're actually engaged with the Bitcoin network 276 00:27:59,165 --> 00:28:01,105 and not just clicking the buy button passively 277 00:28:01,105 --> 00:28:03,405 or setting up a DCA plan or something like that 278 00:28:03,405 --> 00:28:06,225 What was the feeling for you, Mike 279 00:28:06,225 --> 00:28:08,565 when you finished 280 00:28:08,565 --> 00:28:12,305 By the way, the whole point isn't just to be an ad spot for the Bitcoin way 281 00:28:12,305 --> 00:28:13,965 Obviously, click the link below 282 00:28:13,965 --> 00:28:15,665 You can schedule some time with our team and learn more 283 00:28:15,665 --> 00:28:20,885 But just in general, what was it that you felt like 284 00:28:20,885 --> 00:28:26,485 you had achieved and learned through the process of taking self-custody of your Bitcoin. 285 00:28:27,845 --> 00:28:34,325 Yeah, I think it's so hard to explain. I think I'd heard some people talk about this 286 00:28:34,325 -->

00:28:42,045 before I did it and didn't believe them. So it's because I think it's very, very hard to do until 287 00:28:42,045 --> 00:28:50,025 you've actually done it. And it's almost like this, it's just this sense of freedom and relief. 288 00:28:50,025 --> 00:29:19,905 it's just kind of like nothing can stop me sending this transaction you know not there is nothing that can stop me from holding this and the only way anyone is ever going to get this out of me is if I willingly give it to them you know and it's just such a empowering moment really where that's um I don't think I had really realized how powerful it was until setting up my node and actually having 289 00:29:19,905 --> 00:29:22,025 Bitcoin move through my own node. 290 00:29:22,025 --> 00:29:26,185 And it's like, that is me that has allowed this to happen. 291 00:29:26,365 --> 00:29:28,365 And no one else can see that sort of thing. 292 00:29:28,785 --> 00:29:33,625 And that was something else I learned, which I didn't even know, was whenever you send 293 00:29:33,625 --> 00:29:40,385 Bitcoin through someone else's node, they can actually, they get your wallet address, 294 00:29:40,545 --> 00:29:44,605 I believe, which technically means they can see the whole balance. 295 00:29:44,905 --> 00:29:45,405 Is that right? 296 00:29:45,525 --> 00:29:46,685 Or is it just the UTXO? 297 00:29:46,685 --> 00:30:13,325 They can, yeah, what it does, I mean, you've eliminated some of your privacy because it's your XPUB. They can see information about your wallet and begin to piece together more about you. But more importantly, too, when you're not running a node, you can't verify your own transactions. Do you hold Bitcoin? You're trusting. It's just a trust-based model. You're trusting someone else to help you. 298 00:30:13,325 --> 00:30:25,105 and I think that's what a lot of people don't understand about a node. They think it's just like something you voluntarily do to help with the network. Like that's not it. Like you also add privacy to your setup. 299 00:30:25,105 --> 00:30:55,045 Yeah, which I really did not understand until going through it and just seeing it all pieced together. And then you just end up tinkering with it a little bit as well. And you learn so much more about Bitcoin by going through it and realizing how powerful it is. Like there is nothing that anyone can do to stop this. It is and it's crazy. And each person that adds to the network makes it that little bit more decentralized and secure. And so it just keeps getting stronger and stronger. 300 00:30:55,045 --> 00:31:00,725 and I think this is almost like the light bulb moment again for me. It was like, oh my gosh, 301 00:31:00,725 --> 00:31:08,885 this is actually even more, it's just bigger than what I had ever thought. And you start to then 302 00:31:08,885 --> 00:31:22,258 realize how this could really it just changes everything And I think everyone listening to this will already know how broken the money is and by

having good money in place the difference that makes to the world 303 00:31:22,258 --> 00:31:29,298 And it's like, oh yeah, this actually can't be stopped. It is unstoppable as long as people like 304 00:31:29,298 --> 00:31:35,858 us three and more people that are listening to this and more people keep doing this. And I think 305 00:31:35,858 --> 00:31:42,038 most people that are doing this are never going to go back. I think that's the massive thing about it as well. 306 00:31:43,218 --> 00:31:48,198 Yeah. I think what it is for me, or I think what it was for me when I first took self-custody is 307 00:31:48,198 --> 00:31:56,518 I had done so much reading, research, podcast, listening on Bitcoin that I understood what was 308 00:31:56,518 --> 00:32:00,478 happening under the hood when you're using something like PayPal or Venmo to transfer money. 309 00:32:00,478 --> 00:32:05,818 There's multiple third parties involved. It's money that's being devalued. There's layers 310 00:32:05,818 --> 00:32:35,558 upon layers of things wrong with that. And once you sort of internalize that, and then you send an air gap transaction on a completely decentralized censorship resistant monetary network, it's like boom, like your whole worldview changes. You have to understand that first piece though, like what the fiat system is to really appreciate what it is that Bitcoin enables. And once you sit with that and you think about it a little bit, I mean, it just makes your head explode and you never want to go back. 311 00:32:35,818 --> 00:32:44,598 Katie, how did you feel once you sort of migrated from self-custody-ish to proper self-custody, feeling like you were in complete control? 312 00:32:45,098 --> 00:32:49,298 Yeah, I definitely don't think that I could really understand it. 313 00:32:49,378 --> 00:33:00,818 Like even at the first stage of my self-custody journey where I understood that, okay, I can transfer my Bitcoin so that I hold it and FTX or Celsius doesn't hold it. 314 00:33:01,518 --> 00:33:05,498 But I still didn't really get what that meant. 315 00:33:05,498 --> 00:33:08,998 and I think that's because we are conditioned 316 00:33:08,998 --> 00:33:13,438 from an extremely young age, 317 00:33:13,538 --> 00:33:15,698 from the age that we can even understand 318 00:33:15,698 --> 00:33:17,818 what this coin in our hand represents. 319 00:33:17,818 --> 00:33:23,818 We are conditioned to believe that money must involve 320 00:33:24,458 --> 00:33:27,218 some kind of intermediary. 321 00:33:28,118 --> 00:33:32,478 And even more so now when we're living in a society 322 00:33:32,478 --> 00:33:35,278 where even something like cash is being phased out. 323 00:33:35,278 --> 00:34:05,258 so every transaction that we do involves almost every transaction that we do involves an intermediary and we just kind of it's so ingrained that we don't even see it and I think that once I got into full self-custody so once I even moved away from that setup where I just had

a ledger securing my Bitcoin and I got into full self-custody and I was running a no 324 00:34:05,258 --> 00:34:10,398 and before this process, 325 00:34:10,898 --> 00:34:12,938 I knew I wanted to run a node. 326 00:34:13,538 --> 00:34:14,298 Excuse me. 327 00:34:14,978 --> 00:34:16,938 I didn't know what a node was. 328 00:34:17,118 --> 00:34:21,198 Like I knew what it was in terms of this is what it does, 329 00:34:21,218 --> 00:34:22,318 but I didn't really get it 330 00:34:22,318 --> 00:34:23,638 and I didn't even know what it looked like. 331 00:34:24,098 --> 00:34:25,678 So when I ordered my node, 332 00:34:25,818 --> 00:34:29,558 so I decided to use a start nine and I ordered it 333 00:34:29,558 --> 00:34:31,698 and when it finally showed up, 334 00:34:31,958 --> 00:34:33,758 it was in this great big box 335 00:34:33,758 --> 00:34:37,238 and I thought, oh, you know, this is what I expected. 336 00:34:37,358 --> 00:34:39,598 Like it's going to be this massive, great big machine. 337 00:34:40,258 --> 00:34:43,098 And I opened the box and it was stuffed full of paper. 338 00:34:43,098 --> 00:34:46,518 And right at the bottom of the box, there was this tiny little box. 339 00:34:47,498 --> 00:34:49,418 And I was like, where's my node? 340 00:34:49,498 --> 00:34:50,658 And I'm digging through the box. 341 00:34:50,698 --> 00:34:54,018 And then I find this little tiny box and I take it out and I'm like, this is it? 342 00:34:54,818 --> 00:34:55,958 This is my node? 343 00:34:56,898 --> 00:34:58,318 Like, wow, okay. 344 00:34:58,358 --> 00:34:59,958 This is not at all what I was expecting. 345 00:35:00,058 --> 00:35:03,298 But, you know, once it was set up and I was able to use it, 346 00:35:03,758 --> 00:35:33,738 I sat down and you know you can set up you can just look at your own mempool for example and I sat down and I started looking at the mempool and I spent this is a bit nerdy I spent hours going through the mempool and just clicking on so many things and studying all the transactions and watching the blocks and it wasn't until I did that that because it gives you that nice visual of how the network works and you don't even need your own node to be able to do that anyone can go 347 00:35:33,738 --> 00:35:36,318 to Mempool online and take a look. 348 00:35:37,098 --> 00:35:39,438 And I don't think it was until that point 349 00:35:39,438 --> 00:35:41,838 when I really understood what was going on 350 00:35:41,838 --> 00:35:44,618 and that when I sent a transaction, 351 00:35:44,918 --> 00:35:47,158 like I was sending it through my node 352 00:35:47,158 --> 00:35:49,338 and this was my money and this is my transaction 353 00:35:49,338 --> 00:35:53,658 and there is no intermediary involved here. 354 00:35:54,598 --> 00:35:56,278 So I think, yeah, definitely. 355 00:35:56,558 --> 00:35:57,458 But it took me a while. 356 00:35:57,698 --> 00:35:59,758 Like I was running that node for a while 357 00:35:59,758 --> 00:36:04,958 before I started to

really get to the point 358 00:36:04,958 --> 00:36:06,178 where I understood that. 359 00:36:06,278 --> 00:36:07,458 Like it's a process. 360 00:36:08,358 --> 00:36:10,238 I don't know if there are people who come to this 361 00:36:10,238 --> 00:36:13,058 already innately understanding this stuff, 362 00:36:13,238 --> 00:36:14,358 but for me it was a process 363 00:36:14,358 --> 00:36:16,978 and it's still an ongoing process. 364 00:36:17,118 --> 00:36:18,978 Like it hasn't just stopped. 365 00:36:19,258 --> 00:36:20,178 It's still going. 366 00:36:20,278 --> 00:36:22,318 I'm still learning stuff every single day. 367 00:36:23,178 --> 00:36:47,371 Absolutely Alrighty guys I want to close up with a lightning round that I was not planning on doing but I want to make sure we were kind of pinging around some ideas for what we could chat about before this and want to make sure we don miss anything Reasons people should consider taking self custody So the big one for me I think two big ones for me are learning real skills how to run a node how to send transactions and complete control of your funds 368 00:36:47,371 --> 00:37:09,851 I mentioned I couldn't send during their maintenance windows with my collaborative custody provider. But some other things we talked about were no KYC, privacy, so third party not knowing anything, eliminating counterparty risk more generally. It's the difference, honestly, between real Bitcoin and paper Bitcoin. And then there are some advantages related to inheritance. 369 00:37:09,851 --> 00:37:13,071 Mike, are there any things that I kind of hit on here 370 00:37:13,071 --> 00:37:14,111 I know that was a lot, sorry 371 00:37:14,111 --> 00:37:17,371 that we haven't highlighted that you want to touch on 372 00:37:17,371 --> 00:37:18,331 before we jump off? 373 00:37:19,891 --> 00:37:23,391 No, I think that kind of covers everything that I would say 374 00:37:23,391 --> 00:37:26,411 Yeah, I think a massive thing for me as well 375 00:37:26,411 --> 00:37:29,291 is just with more and more research that I've been doing 376 00:37:29,291 --> 00:37:33,331 is just realizing how without self-custody 377 00:37:33,331 --> 00:37:35,531 Bitcoin really could just become like gold 378 00:37:35,531 --> 00:37:38,311 It could just, the whole paper Bitcoin thing 379 00:37:38,311 --> 00:37:41,931 where exchanges can just rehypothecate. 380 00:37:42,171 --> 00:37:43,351 And I mean, we've already seen it 381 00:37:43,351 --> 00:37:46,251 with all the ones that you use, Katie, 382 00:37:46,431 --> 00:37:48,591 like with Celsius. 383 00:37:49,331 --> 00:37:50,331 Yeah, Celsius. 384 00:37:51,151 --> 00:37:53,031 We've already seen it happen. 385 00:37:53,311 --> 00:37:54,131 So it's not like, 386 00:37:54,531 --> 00:37:56,231 oh, maybe these companies will be doing it. 387 00:37:56,291 --> 00:37:57,851 We already know that they have 388 00:37:57,851 --> 00:37:59,431 and they will and they will do it again. 389 00:37:59,951 --> 00:38:04,831 And so

that is actually how gold ended up failing as money 390 00:38:04,831 --> 00:38:05,891 is because it got centralized 391 00:38:05,891 --> 00:38:08,571 and it means that people can just re-hypothecate it. 392 00:38:08,631 --> 00:38:09,851 They can lend out more gold 393 00:38:09,851 --> 00:38:11,211 than what they actually have in reserves. 394 00:38:11,451 --> 00:38:13,011 Everyone knows that's the thing with gold 395 00:38:13,011 --> 00:38:15,851 these days, like two extreme levels. 396 00:38:17,511 --> 00:38:19,871 The only thing that makes Bitcoin difference 397 00:38:19,871 --> 00:38:23,251 is self-custody and running your own node 398 00:38:23,251 --> 00:38:27,031 and actually being fully in control of your own ones 399 00:38:27,031 --> 00:38:29,131 because no one is re-hypothecating that. 400 00:38:29,691 --> 00:38:32,791 So it will only work as long as people are doing that. 401 00:38:33,371 --> 00:38:34,331 And like I say, 402 00:38:34,331 --> 00:38:48,131 more and more people are figuring us out. More and more people are doing it. And I still am yet to meet anyone or hear anyone that has actually started doing this and then been like, no, I'm going back into fiat world. So for me, that's the biggest thing. 403 00:38:49,151 --> 00:39:02,271 Yeah. If you want self-sovereignty, if you want number go up, and if you want Bitcoin to continue to win, we need to take self-custody, run nodes and do it the right way. Katie, any comment on any of these things that I mentioned or just anything else you want to share before we hop off? 404 00:39:02,271 --> 00:39:23,591 Yeah, I'll go back to the node briefly. That was a big thing for me because when I set up my node with the help of the Bitcoin way, they just helped me set it up as a node. And then after I'd done that, I sat down and I had a look at it and I went, wait a minute, this does other things. 405 00:39:23,591 --> 00:39:29,891 and so the concept of Bitcoin self-custody 406 00:39:29,891 --> 00:39:31,691 then I realized that could actually 407 00:39:31,691 --> 00:39:33,811 this whole self-sovereignty thing 408 00:39:33,811 --> 00:39:35,651 it could be applied to other things 409 00:39:35,651 --> 00:39:38,031 in my little start nine box 410 00:39:38,031 --> 00:39:40,611 and that was a big revelation to me 411 00:39:40,611 --> 00:39:41,971 and that was a massive bonus 412 00:39:41,971 --> 00:39:43,191 because all of a sudden I went 413 00:39:43,191 --> 00:39:45,111 so I can have my own cloud 414 00:39:45,111 --> 00:39:47,471 I didn't even know that was possible 415 00:39:47,471 --> 00:39:50,611 I can have my password manager on here 416 00:39:50,611 --> 00:39:53,631 I can set up RoboSats 417 00:39:53,631 --> 00:39:55,491 I can have my own Lightning Node 418 00:39:55,491 --> 00:40:01,271 I can do peer-to-peer Bitcoin trading 419 00:40:01,271 --> 00:40:05,751 So once I had that concept cemented 420 00:40:05,751 --> 00:40:09,191 I then realised it could be applied to so many things 421 00:40:09,191 --> 00:40:10,911 Though I did all the things 422 00:40:10,911 --> 00:40:13,551 As soon as I realised that it was possible 423 00:40:13,551 --> 00:40:16,151 I had all kinds of things set up on my 424 00:40:16,151 --> 00:40:17,771 Running on my start line 425 00:40:17,771 --> 00:40:18,931 I shouldn't call it a Bitcoin Node 426 00:40:18,931 --> 00:40:20,911 because it's not, it's sovereign computing. 427 00:40:21,571 --> 00:40:23,811 But that was really helpful 428 00:40:23,811 --> 00:40:25,291 because I'd already understood the concept 429 00:40:25,291 --> 00:40:27,731 of running a node 430 00:40:27,731 --> 00:40:31,951 and why it helped to make me financially sovereign. 431 00:40:32,331 --> 00:40:33,371 And then I could apply that 432 00:40:33,371 --> 00:40:35,011 to sovereign computing as well. 433 00:40:36,351 --> 00:40:36,751 Fantastic. 434 00:40:37,111 --> 00:40:38,651 We could talk about nodes all day. 435 00:40:38,731 --> 00:40:39,951 I think everyone needs to run one. 436 00:40:40,111 --> 00:40:41,271 Very important stuff. 437 00:40:41,391 --> 00:40:43,011 Guys, I think that's a good place to wrap though. 438 00:40:43,251 --> 00:40:45,291 Mike, first of all, thank you so much for joining us. 439 00:40:45,391 --> 00:40:46,851 Why don't you tell people where they can find you? 440 00:40:46,911 --> 00:40:47,971 I'm just going to real quickly though, 441 00:40:47,971 --> 00:40:58,811 Bitcoin Katie and Mike, the work that they're doing, incredible, way underrated channels. Make sure you go check them out. So Mike, where can people find you, your newsletter, anything else you got going on? 442 00:40:59,451 --> 00:41:10,291 Yeah, just go to Bitcoin Straight Up. I mean, either on YouTube or the website, you can find the newsletter and everything on the website, just BitcoinStraightUp.com. That's where you'll find everything on me. 443 00:41:10,291 --> 00:41:19,251 Katie, I don't usually give you an opportunity to do a handoff because it's our internal things. But if Mike gets an opportunity to do a handoff, tell me where they can find your channel. 444 00:41:20,111 --> 00:41:30,351 Yeah, so my channel is Bitcoin Katie. I also have a sub stack by the same name. And you will obviously also find me on the Bitcoin Way channel from time to time. 445 00:41:31,271 --> 00:41:39,991 Absolutely. Fantastic. Thank you both for being here. For everyone who tuned in, really appreciate it. Make sure you click that link below. Schedule some time with our team. We'd love for you to learn more about how we can help. 446 00:41:39,997 --> 00:41:42,597 We'll walk you through everything that we've described here today. 447 00:41:42,777 --> 00:41:46,637 And be sure before you hop off, make sure you like the video, subscribe to the channel. 448 00:41:46,717 --> 00:41:47,877 We would really appreciate that. 449 00:41:48,257 --> 00:41:50,277 Guys, until next time, we'll talk again soon. 450 00:41:51,357 --> 00:41:51,997 Thanks, guys. 451 00:41:52,337 --> 00:41:52,677 Thanks. 452 00:41:52,677 --> 00:41:52,877 Cheers.