Full Transcript for Episode 1: Teaching Australia's First Stories

So it was something that she wanted 02:30.170 --> 02:31.371 [SPEAKER_01]: going through education. 02:31.391 --> 02:36.495 [SPEAKER_01]: It was segregated, so it was like Aboriginal students stepped out of the classroom. 02:36.895 --> 02:43.320 [SPEAKER_01]: We learned about our culture a couple times a year and that was like cool tick to box. 02:43.981 --> 02:51.427 [SPEAKER_01]: And while it was great to have those experiences and I still have a lot of those memories of doing the arts and learning about the dreaming stories and things like that, 02:52.087 --> 03:09.194 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it was very separate from the classroom, so it was like when we talked about Aboriginal people in history lesson and things like that, um, for the other students, it was like the first that we're hearing of it, and we were kind of like, well, we understand a little bit, and so that sort of inspired me as I got older. 03:09.634 --> 03:14.616 [SPEAKER_01]: to want it to be different for the students, you know, the younger generations. 03:15.197 --> 03:33.245 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I entered teaching with a real passion for Aboriginal education specifically, and wanting to make sure that both Aboriginal students and non- Aboriginal students got the opportunity to explore the culture, the history, and yet, and I will have a real strong opinion that 03:33.745 --> 03:36.506 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, education shapes opinions within society. 03:36.706 --> 03:52.314 [SPEAKER_01]: So these young people are going to grow up one day to be contributing, working, people, adults in society and they're going to have their own opinions and we want those opinions to be positive when it comes to Aboriginal culture, when it comes to learning about the true history of Australia. 03:52.774 --> 03:53.455 [SPEAKER_01]: I think with 03:54.235 --> 03:56.037 [SPEAKER_01]: society, you know, it's no sake. 03:56.377 --> 04:03.743 [SPEAKER_01]: You go online and see the comments and they're not always positive when we're talking about Aboriginal culture and Aboriginal history and things like that. 04:03.883 --> 04:15.033 [SPEAKER_01]: So we want that younger generation to grow up and to almost be like a given that when we talk about culture and history and Aboriginal perspectives, you know, it is positive. 04:15.233 --> 04:19.877 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that, you know, is a negative and there's less of that divide within society. 04:20.300 --> 04:22.001 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, thank you for sharing that. 04:22.041 --> 04:23.762 [SPEAKER_00]: That's it's incredibly interesting. 04:24.382 --> 04:33.626 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think back to my own upbringing, like primary school in the 80s, and there was almost no Aboriginal education at all. 04:33.687 --> 04:38.469 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it wasn't until, you know, more almost sort of modern history. 04:39.149 --> 04:45.097 [SPEAKER_00]: in high school that we started learning about Aboriginal history, but I'm so glad to hear that it has been

changing. 04:45.457 --> 04:48.160 [SPEAKER_00]: Something that you said really struck me just now. 04:48.521 --> 04:53.647 [SPEAKER_00]: We have this divide of being able to teach it successfully in a classroom. 04:54.308 --> 04:54.408 [SPEAKER_00]: And 04:55.204 --> 04:59.527 [SPEAKER_00]: One thing that we're saying, we're saying comments online that are both positive, that are both negative. 04:59.947 --> 05:05.930 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think that there is that divide between being able to teach it, being able to teach it well? 05:06.390 --> 05:08.932 [SPEAKER_00]: And perhaps why are some teachers afraid to teach it? 05:09.792 --> 05:20.018 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we're in society where really in this transition period of going from Aboriginal culture and history and it coming from this, like sort of, 05:21.479 --> 05:23.441 [SPEAKER_01]: teaching it negatively in the past. 05:24.121 --> 05:27.384 [SPEAKER_01]: So now we're trying to change it so that it is taught more positively. 05:27.684 --> 05:43.856 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in this transition period and there are a lot of people who have really good intentions when it will teach us who have really good intentions with teaching average education but they might be coming from an experience in education where, you know, it was taught differently. 05:43.936 --> 05:45.637 [SPEAKER_01]: So now they're coming into a profession where 05:46.237 --> 06:00.772 [SPEAKER_01]: they have to teach it in this positive light and there is a massive weight on teachers shoulders to be able to get it right and they're feeling this pressure to make sure that it is culturally accurate and sensitive and those things are really important but 06:01.573 --> 06:05.594 [SPEAKER_01]: for some teachers who I've spoken to, there is this real genuine fear. 06:06.154 --> 06:23.860 [SPEAKER_01]: And the fear is very valid, but we want to reduce that fear as much as possible and with that comes with building their own knowledge up that they maybe didn't get when I were in school and I know that it's not in tertiary education in universities, it's not compulsory. 06:23.920 --> 06:27.821 [SPEAKER_01]: So for some universities, it might not be a cool subject. 06:28.301 --> 06:42.193 [SPEAKER_01]: Where it's for myself, it was, which is great, but when they don't have that course subject there, a lot of teachers are coming into the profession having very little understanding and very little knowledge and they're sort of learning, you know, on the flight as they go. 06:42.213 --> 06:53.742 [SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, that confidence not being there, that's totally understandable, but we really want to sort of build these opportunities for these teachers to build their understanding, 06:57.745 --> 07:02.290 [SPEAKER_01]: for them to build relationships with local Aboriginal communities so that they can build their confidence. 07:02.711 --> 07:04.693 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they will absolutely explore that further. 07:05.373 --> 07:13.702 [SPEAKER_00]: One thing just going back to you said about teachers being able to create their own knowledge and I think we know as teachers that a lot of that comes from asking questions. 07:14.464 --> 07:34.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think we've accidentally created a culture where teachers are afraid to ask questions because of some of that underlying fear, the fear of bringing up the negative history, the fear of not being able to ask the right question without potentially insulting an indigenous person or an indigenous culture? 07:34.783 --> 07:40.228 [SPEAKER_00]: Why do you think that we've created this culture of accidentally not asking questions? 07:40.731 --> 08:00.360 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the fear is definitely there, you know, I've spoken to teachers, and I want to as much as I possibly can when I have these conversations, I personally don't want the fear to be there, but I think in Aboriginal communities, as of course, lots and lots of cultures, lots of communities, people have different opinions. 08:00.780 --> 08:03.744 [SPEAKER_01]: about what you can teach, what you can't teach, and there are elements. 08:04.464 --> 08:13.995 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really important to know that, you know, with Aboriginal culture, prior to colonization, there's, you know, over 250 language groups. 08:14.015 --> 08:18.701 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's over 250 different ways of doing things. 08:19.161 --> 08:20.763 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important to know 08:21.464 --> 08:30.628 [SPEAKER_01]: your local history, your local culture, what their cultural protocols are, and when you hear certain things of people saying you can't do this, you can't do that. 08:30.688 --> 08:35.110 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really important to understand and to know where that is coming from. 08:35.190 --> 08:38.951 [SPEAKER_01]: It might be different for where you are, you local, the teaching. 08:39.631 --> 08:43.813 [SPEAKER_01]: That's why it's important to build your own understanding. 08:44.834 --> 08:45.354 [SPEAKER_01]: The fear is 08:48.655 --> 08:50.216 [SPEAKER_01]: intention is also very valid. 08:50.736 --> 09:06.600 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, if you are coming from a good genuine place of wanting to teach culture accurately, authentically, with that element of sensitivity, that goes a long way to a lot of Aboriginal people, to a lot of Aboriginal communities. 09:07.240 --> 09:14.202 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, really, you really need to sit with yourself and ask yourself, you know, what are your intentions with wanting to teach Aboriginal culture? 09:14.502 --> 09:16.523 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it good intention that you wanting to get it right? 09:16.883 --> 09:18.185 [SPEAKER_01]: and then go from there. 09:18.205 --> 09:32.865 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you are someone who genuinely just wants to, you know, you want to get it right, you know, you want to do the right thing by Aboriginal communities, by Aboriginal elders, and you want to do it from us coming from

a space of building towards reconciliation, then 09:34.427 --> 09:37.790 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we want you to feel confident in having a go. 09:37.810 --> 09:43.034 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, yes, there are things that is absolutely really important that you don't get wrong, especially when it comes to history. 09:43.414 --> 09:46.696 [SPEAKER_01]: And with any history, when you teach any history, it's important that you don't get it wrong. 09:46.716 --> 09:47.457 [SPEAKER_01]: Gotta get the facts right. 09:47.477 --> 09:48.858 [SPEAKER_01]: You get the facts right, absolutely. 09:49.458 --> 09:57.164 [SPEAKER_01]: But when it comes to things like, I know, you know, with department and their units, they're trying to introduce traditional language. 09:57.364 --> 10:03.549 [SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of teachers will sit there and they'll say to me like, you know, I just, I didn't pronounce the word because I didn't want to get it right. 10:03.949 --> 10:20.405 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, things like that, I'm like, have a go, you know, give the kids an opportunity to take that word and they might do their own research, you know, of course, maybe before you see the word find every, you know, technology is a great tool, then might be some, you 10:21.286 --> 10:36.242 [SPEAKER_01]: websites that do have the correct pronunciation of the word but if there's absolutely nothing to go off and you don't have the resources or the people to ask yeah you don't want to just skip the word because no you we're scared. 10:36.462 --> 10:38.564 [SPEAKER_00]: No that really brings us brings us into that. 10:39.325 --> 10:45.870 [SPEAKER_00]: authenticity and understanding what does authentic teaching of indigenous perspectives really look like. 10:46.411 --> 10:49.133 [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess what does it look like in the classroom? 10:49.633 --> 10:54.758 [SPEAKER_00]: When we talk about having a go feeling free to make mistakes, you know, you don't know the language. 10:54.818 --> 10:56.759 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know 250 different languages. 10:56.979 --> 10:57.420 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 10:57.440 --> 11:03.825 [SPEAKER_00]: So I guess a question might be Michael, Canon non indigenous teacher, teaching indigenous perspectives authentically. 11:04.205 --> 11:04.985 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 11:05.305 --> 11:07.346 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's important. 11:07.386 --> 11:13.568 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, we have to, right, has to be that way because there are not that many Aboriginal teachers. 11:13.888 --> 11:23.532 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, of course, that responsibility relies heavily on non-indigenous teachers, teaching Aboriginal culture and history and perspectives. 11:24.272 --> 11:30.595 [SPEAKER_01]: If we just said, well, we don't have any Aboriginal teachers to do this, like, so we're just not going to do it. 11:30.895 --> 11:34.437 [SPEAKER_01]: Then think about the future and impact that has on society. 11:34.937 --> 11:37.539 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not

going to build towards reconciliation. 11:37.759 --> 11:40.060 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's going to, you know, sort of. 11:40.960 --> 11:42.321 [SPEAKER_01]: the culture is going to be diminished. 11:42.681 --> 11:51.025 [SPEAKER_01]: And similar with language, like, we want the languages to be revitalized and in doing that means that we have to be having a go. 11:51.365 --> 11:57.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, when you teach things like language, it's really important to build the relationships with local Aboriginal communities. 11:58.329 --> 12:01.670 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't just be like our, well, let's just rely on technology. 12:01.850 --> 12:02.971 [SPEAKER_01]: Technology is great tool. 12:03.251 --> 12:07.313 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, there's like there's so many websites where you can, that are run by Aboriginal, 12:07.693 --> 12:10.075 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, organisations and businesses and things like that. 12:10.555 --> 12:12.016 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a great tool. 12:12.116 --> 12:18.580 [SPEAKER_01]: But we also want people, teachers to feel confident in reaching out to communities. 12:18.840 --> 12:22.223 [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, that's can be easier said than done for sure. 12:22.803 --> 12:24.584 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not impossible. 12:25.044 --> 12:26.045 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's that's my question. 12:26.065 --> 12:31.509 [SPEAKER_00]: So if I'm a, if I'm a, if I'm a teacher, let's say I've moved into a new community, I've started a new school. 12:32.129 --> 12:32.810 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really, 12:33.954 --> 12:35.996 [SPEAKER_00]: excited to teach Indigenous perspectives. 12:36.656 --> 12:43.662 [SPEAKER_00]: Obviously I would like to have I might be on a different country on different land where I want to make sure I get it right. 12:43.722 --> 12:45.863 [SPEAKER_00]: How do I go about finding? 12:47.230 --> 12:50.951 [SPEAKER_00]: local communities or contacting some elders of that community. 12:51.031 --> 12:51.731 [SPEAKER_00]: Where do I start? 12:52.191 --> 12:53.612 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, that's a really good question. 12:53.652 --> 12:59.694 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know in working in New South Wales, we have the AECG, and that's how my mum started. 12:59.714 --> 13:04.855 [SPEAKER_01]: She was the Vice President of our local regional AECG, which is an Aboriginal education consulting group. 13:05.235 --> 13:11.417 [SPEAKER_01]: They work very closely with the New South Wales Department of Education in building Aboriginal education policies. 13:12.297 --> 13:16.819 [SPEAKER_01]: Every local area has a local Aboriginal education consultative group. 13:17.379 --> 13:23.041 [SPEAKER_01]: They all work a little bit differently, but in my experience they often hold meetings. 13:23.101 --> 13:28.403 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, if you reach out to your principal and say, like I'm really interested in learning about the AECG, 13:29.063 --> 13:36.050 [SPEAKER_01]: then there should definitely be meetings and places for you to go and to meet with our local Aboriginal community members. 13:36.130 --> 13:39.473 [SPEAKER_01]: So these meetings are for not just teachers, they're for community members as well. 13:39.533 --> 13:51.544 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can, you know, go in and see who's there and sort of talk about the fact that you really want to make sure that when you're teaching Aboriginal perspectives, culture history, that you're doing it authentically. 13:52.265 --> 13:54.127 [SPEAKER_01]: But with that comes with building 13:54.887 --> 13:56.530 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a strong relationship. 13:56.570 --> 13:59.915 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just I'm going to go meet the months and ask him a couple of questions. 14:00.536 --> 14:02.739 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it has to be, you know, consistent. 14:02.759 --> 14:08.147 [SPEAKER_01]: You're building a relationship in Aboriginal kingship, you know, relationships so important. 14:08.207 --> 14:08.367 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 14:08.868 --> 14:09.008 [SPEAKER_01]: And 14:09.689 --> 14:24.714 [SPEAKER_01]: There are a lot of Aboriginal people out there who do feel quite or they keep the cards close to their chest because they don't want to share their culture with the wrong people which is also very valid given the history. 14:25.254 --> 14:33.057 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have to build trust that's so important and they have to see that you are coming from a place of 14:33.717 --> 14:38.000 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, genuineness and wanting to build towards reconciliation. 14:38.640 --> 14:45.925 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's that, I know New South Wales has the AECG and I, but I also know that other states sort of have their own versions. 14:46.305 --> 14:49.907 [SPEAKER_01]: So reaching out and finding, you know, their own consultative groups. 14:50.427 --> 14:53.189 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also people within lots of roles within departments. 14:53.269 --> 14:54.110 [SPEAKER_01]: Now that, um, 14:54.590 --> 15:10.062 [SPEAKER_01]: people are feeling and it's just towards Aboriginal education so maybe we can reach out to those people but also every place has their Aboriginal land Council so you know it might be going and seeing what the Aboriginal land Council is like and having a chart and yarn to the people there. 15:10.662 --> 15:14.103 [SPEAKER_01]: And sort of, yeah, building that relationship there as well. 15:14.163 --> 15:20.925 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, Aboriginal families, of course, schools have Aboriginal families, touching base with those Aboriginal families. 15:21.465 --> 15:24.026 [SPEAKER_01]: You once again, working towards building a relationship. 15:24.566 --> 15:27.047 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are a lot of Aboriginal families who... 15:27.727 --> 15:46.024 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, maybe the parents didn't have a positive experience with education themselves, so it's understandable if, you know, maybe getting in touch with them might be a little bit tricky, but it's all about building that trust, and we want to show our

Aboriginal families that maybe their experience years ago, it's not that experience. 15:46.044 --> 15:47.945 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be that experience for their children. 15:49.467 --> 15:50.087 [SPEAKER_00]: Couldn't agree more. 15:51.112 --> 15:56.396 [SPEAKER_00]: I've obviously building those relationships with elders in the community is incredibly important. 15:56.837 --> 16:05.584 [SPEAKER_00]: When we come into the classroom as well, we want those resources to be able to help the children to understand so whether they're reading, they're seeing, they're... 16:06.905 --> 16:08.206 [SPEAKER_00]: art and culture and reading. 16:09.306 --> 16:14.008 [SPEAKER_00]: How do we know if we're using it as a teacher if we're using a trust worthy resource? 16:14.389 --> 16:23.553 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so when you go online there's definitely there's so much information but understanding what's authentic or not can be quite tricky. 16:23.973 --> 16:33.275 [SPEAKER_01]: Because even as an Aboriginal teacher, there's so much that I still have to research, like we might be, I might get pick up a unit and the unit's talking about something that's not local. 16:34.336 --> 16:36.596 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I still have to do my own research. 16:37.196 --> 16:50.480 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm always looking for Aboriginal-led organizations, Aboriginal-led websites, but then obviously if I can't find that the next best thing would be organizations that I know have 16:51.420 --> 17:11.153 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... you know accurate cultural protocols and online cultural protocol calls for example government websites and things like that they have their own processes and they're connecting with you know Aboriginal elders and community members and so that's that would be the tip that i have twinkle you know we have our own cultural cultural protocols uh... 17:11.413 --> 17:11.933 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us about that. 17:12.214 --> 17:15.316 [SPEAKER_01]: Myself, I am the content writer and editor. 17:15.916 --> 17:22.320 [SPEAKER_01]: So I overlooking all of the resources as well as Belinda, she's the content advisor. 17:22.340 --> 17:35.509 [SPEAKER_01]: So we sort of work together making sure that the resources, you know, culture, the accurate, appropriate, making sure that we're not sharing anything that we don't have the permission to share more specifically local knowledge. 17:35.529 --> 17:36.149 [SPEAKER_01]: For example, 17:37.930 --> 17:40.213 [SPEAKER_01]: we're a registry, some things in we're a registry language. 17:40.333 --> 17:46.241 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that we just, for myself, I can't say that, you know, we can put that out there because I'm not from we're a registry country. 17:47.243 --> 17:52.650 [SPEAKER_01]: So I know there's lot of teachers asking, you know, where we're, you know, sort of, language resources. 17:53.210 --> 18:03.538 [SPEAKER_01]: that may be twinkle of how in the past, you know, and we've taken them down because we just don't have the permission to show to, you know, share those that knowledge yet. 18:03.718 --> 18:17.147 [SPEAKER_01]: And we would love to build relationships with our local community members and elders so that we can hopefully one day get those sort of resources out there because it's important that, you know, like I said with especially with language, you know, 18:18.208 --> 18:19.968 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to revitalize language. 18:20.008 --> 18:22.829 [SPEAKER_01]: We want students in schools learning traditional language. 18:23.469 --> 18:36.812 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important that when you're getting your knowledge and sort of your researching, you're getting it from an organisation or a company that is following cultural protocols, they have the permission to share that research. 18:36.852 --> 18:42.873 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's also elements of, you know, don't know if you've heard of men's business, women's business, the number of times culture. 18:43.433 --> 18:47.836 [SPEAKER_01]: There are stories where, you know, that is only for the women to hear that story. 18:48.096 --> 18:50.298 [SPEAKER_01]: There's stories that's only for the men to hear that story. 18:50.898 --> 18:55.681 [SPEAKER_01]: So, there is a lot of knowledge in Aboriginal culture that can be very sacred. 18:56.522 --> 19:04.087 [SPEAKER_01]: So, making sure that whatever you're sharing, you know, particularly with Aboriginal culture, if it's something like you're learning about Aboriginal artifacts. 19:04.107 --> 19:08.690 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's not specific to a particular country or mob. 19:09.630 --> 19:13.414 [SPEAKER_01]: then usually that's something that can be shared. 19:13.874 --> 19:23.784 [SPEAKER_01]: But when you're picking up a dreaming story, for example, like Tillyx, same thing, a lot of people know Tillyx, and that's something that has been commonly shared around Australia. 19:24.325 --> 19:33.774 [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're teaching a story that, you know, it might not even be written into a book, like you've just found it on a website, for example, there's no pictures like, you know, 19:34.154 --> 19:42.437 [SPEAKER_01]: check whether you have the permission to share that because, yeah, it's really important that the people who are hearing that story have permission to hear that story. 19:42.997 --> 20:00.603 [SPEAKER_00]: Michael, we find that, and I've seen this in schools firsthand, I hear about it, that often a school will be really proactive during certain times of year, like reconciliation week, and then Nightock Week, but then it seems like the indigenous perspectives have packed away. 20:00.883 --> 20:01.063 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 20:01.543 --> 20:09.411 [SPEAKER_00]: which is sad because it I really do feel it should be it should be all the way through the curriculum and all the way through the year and our students should be more exposed to it. 20:09.451 --> 20:12.774 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the sad reality is is that sometimes it does

get packed away. 20:13.575 --> 20:21.803 [SPEAKER_00]: How can we encourage our teachers to not pack it away and to be more open to putting out their Indigenous perspectives right through the year? 20:22.625 --> 20:36.291 [SPEAKER_01]: I think expanding your own knowledge as a teacher is really important because there's a lot of Aboriginal knowledge and perspectives within the curriculum that you can sort of make those connections to. 20:36.991 --> 20:45.235 [SPEAKER_01]: In Western society, a lot of knowledge has been developed in Western society in Australia has actually been inspired by traditional Aboriginal knowledge and a lot of people don't know that. 20:51.737 --> 21:12.990 [SPEAKER_01]: I just did a lesson the other day on cultural burning and we sort of talked about cultural burning from the perspective of we were talking about sustainability and preservation of our you know natural land, bushland and we'll talk about you know five seasons bush, bush five seasons coming up and we're talking about back burning. 21:14.155 --> 21:36.903 [SPEAKER_01]: And I was explaining that back burning was inspired by traditional Aboriginal land management practices in cultural burning and it was actually a lot of the firefighters were getting advice from Aboriginal elders and community members and land councils because the way that they were doing back burning for a long time was actually killing a natural land. 21:37.623 --> 21:54.414 [SPEAKER_01]: because the fires were way too hot, the fires were way too high, then we can taint, and of course we don't want that we want to preserve our land and in that means that we want to burn it enough so that it's not going to be able to be burnt during bushfire season. 21:54.815 --> 21:59.458 [SPEAKER_01]: But we also did to come back, you know, we want the vegetation to regrow and come back. 22:00.118 --> 22:02.039 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, we sort of 22:06.202 --> 22:15.288 [SPEAKER_01]: people were very smart with their land management practices and yeah their land management practices has had inspired the way we sort of do things today. 22:15.308 --> 22:26.415 [SPEAKER_01]: So that there is just a simple connection of having that knowledge and knowing that information students go away and they might go to their parents and they hear, oh you know, do you know what I learned today? 22:26.435 --> 22:30.278 [SPEAKER_01]: You know that you know back burning is actually inspired by cultural burning. 22:31.399 --> 22:32.940 [SPEAKER_01]: Something as simple as that like 22:33.942 --> 22:42.250 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that helps make the conversation being all you think rather than just, you know, we're celebrating cultural night off or reconciliation. 22:43.190 --> 22:48.555 [SPEAKER_01]: And we can make these little connections in every single key learning area, you know. 22:49.476 --> 22:56.641 [SPEAKER_01]: even maths for a lot of communities, they will count using a base 5 system in their traditional language. 22:57.682 --> 23:09.270 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you've got a student in one of those, like, for example, in embroidery, that use that base 5 and you've got a student in kindergarten who's really struggling to add up 23:09.810 --> 23:22.520 [SPEAKER_01]: having the understanding of how they use the base-five system could be really helpful to those students in building their own understanding of how to use simple additive strategies. 23:23.381 --> 23:30.426 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't always have to be content, it can also be pedagogy in the way you teach things, you know, using Aboriginal pedagogy as well. 23:30.446 --> 23:30.506 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 23:32.588 --> 23:54.142 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, although there's little things you can do all year round and we're starting to do that more frequently within the new South Wales units, which is really positive because I'm teaching younger students at the moment kindergarten to your three and even the other day because because the units are always coming back to Aboriginal perspectives, the students are always bringing it up, so 23:54.702 --> 24:02.668 [SPEAKER_01]: I was teaching a science lesson and we were building bird's nest, like something so simple that you would think surely there's no connection to Aboriginal culture there. 24:03.088 --> 24:13.776 [SPEAKER_01]: And then at the end of the lesson, one of the students said, can we watch an Aboriginal video and be being me, I'm like, I'm never going to say no to that, you know, our lessons aren't like it. 24:14.517 --> 24:20.621 [SPEAKER_01]: So I put on a video on smoking ceremonies, and I wasn't really even thinking anything of it, but then the student put the head up and said, 24:21.422 --> 24:28.611 [SPEAKER_01]: They're building it, like, sort of how we just build our birds nest outside, and I was like, so they've even made the connection before me. 24:28.631 --> 24:30.673 [SPEAKER_01]: That's great. 24:30.713 --> 24:37.762 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, even things like that, you know, the students are always drawing back to the knowledge that they gain from from the lessons. 24:38.683 --> 24:49.808 [SPEAKER_01]: and they're sort of even making their own connections, which I found really cool that a five-year-old kid is able to make that connection themselves and they're talking about it in a more positive light. 24:49.828 --> 24:57.812 [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, they're talking about the culture, they're excited to learn about it, and they almost have a sense, even the non-aboriginal students have a sense of pride over it. 24:58.432 --> 25:05.696 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, they feel because they live in Australia, and Aboriginal culture is a part of Australian culture. 25:08.077 --> 25:09.878 [SPEAKER_01]: over Aboriginal culture as well, which is really cool. 25:09.899 --> 25:11.159 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's ultimately what we want. 25:11.380 --> 25:12.080 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 25:12.500 --> 25:24.089 [SPEAKER_00]: Michael, some of our more experienced

teachers who didn't have the opportunity to really be exposed to Indigenous education and perspectives, maybe when they were in primary school or in 25:27.872 --> 25:28.913 [SPEAKER_00]: teach these perspectives. 25:29.534 --> 25:35.781 [SPEAKER_00]: There is some significant fear and the fear for those teachers is that they might get it wrong. 25:36.062 --> 25:37.563 [SPEAKER_00]: Not that they don't want to teach it. 25:38.444 --> 25:45.333 [SPEAKER_00]: What would just say to some of our experience teachers that I just a little bit unsure about that fear of getting it wrong? 25:46.158 --> 25:49.121 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, as I said before, the fears is valid. 25:49.161 --> 25:53.566 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want to sit here and say that they shouldn't have it, because of that fear means they care. 25:53.806 --> 25:54.627 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's important. 25:55.508 --> 25:59.132 [SPEAKER_01]: If they didn't care, they were just going in, you know, it wouldn't matter. 25:59.673 --> 26:05.519 [SPEAKER_01]: But I take that fear as the fact that they care, and like I said, intention is really important. 26:06.400 --> 26:18.626 [SPEAKER_01]: But for those specific teachers who, you know, Aboriginal education might have looked very differently when they were in school, and the other in a position where they have to teach it in a way that maybe, you know, that's very different to how they learned. 26:19.266 --> 26:22.108 [SPEAKER_01]: We see a lot in even anyone in society. 26:22.788 --> 26:26.870 [SPEAKER_01]: They'll take what they learned in school, and they'll carry that through the rest of their lives. 26:27.270 --> 26:32.593 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's almost as if they can't let go of the fact that maybe what they were taught in school wasn't right. 26:33.093 --> 26:36.136 [SPEAKER_01]: And with any, you know, like technology evolves, right? 26:36.157 --> 26:37.718 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe something that you're taught in school. 26:37.738 --> 26:41.743 [SPEAKER_01]: They have technologies involved in, like, came on actually, maybe it's not accurate. 26:41.763 --> 26:44.365 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can expand on that topic even more now. 26:44.445 --> 26:47.188 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's so much more than what you learned in school. 26:47.329 --> 26:47.989 [SPEAKER_01]: So that topic. 26:48.450 --> 26:49.891 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's the hardest thing is letting go. 26:49.951 --> 26:54.376 [SPEAKER_01]: And saying to ourselves, well, actually, I know I was taught this in school, but... 26:55.355 --> 27:01.140 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not accurate or it's even the value of it. 27:01.240 --> 27:02.601 [SPEAKER_01]: It's completely different. 27:02.661 --> 27:09.386 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like we're taking a topic that maybe was taught negatively in school and now we've were teaching in a positive way. 27:09.966 --> 27:18.773 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we also need to not hold on to the content, but we also need to not hold on to just the value as well. 27:18.793

--> 27:20.414 [SPEAKER_01]: The value is completely changed. 27:25.298 --> 27:27.320 [SPEAKER_01]: It's valuable to the Australian education system. 27:28.140 --> 27:39.087 [SPEAKER_01]: So once you let go of that, then you open up a lot of opportunity to build knowledge and build understanding. 27:39.107 --> 27:47.533 [SPEAKER_01]: And you open up the opportunities from coming from a place of wanting to absorb new understandings, new learnings. 27:48.414 --> 27:53.337 [SPEAKER_01]: And when I say new, I don't mean new as in, it's always should have been taught this way. 27:54.938 --> 27:57.500 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and a change of attitudes as well. 27:57.520 --> 27:59.181 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely, a change of attitude. 27:59.201 --> 28:07.245 [SPEAKER_01]: And once you have that, then that's when you sort of reach out to local community members. 28:07.365 --> 28:12.989 [SPEAKER_01]: And learning doesn't just stop because we're older. 28:13.109 --> 28:15.630 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I've got to always want to dig a little bit deeper. 28:15.650 --> 28:16.491 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely. 28:17.935 --> 28:45.883 [SPEAKER_00]: If I was a flipped ascript and say, and let's think about a graduate teacher, who was, did have a little bit more open education in terms of indigenous perspectives at their school, perhaps they even studied a little bit at university, and they come in to a classroom and they really excited about bringing out indigenous perspectives into the classroom and teaching the students, what's one mistake that they shouldn't be afraid of making? 28:46.292 --> 28:51.709 [SPEAKER_01]: The one mistake I would say would be, well, the most common mistake is to not. 28:53.137 --> 29:16.316 [SPEAKER_01]: to not teach it, as we mentioned briefly, it was things like language and things like that, not pronouncing the words or maybe looking at a lesson in the unit and thinking, in my say, the unit might say, oh, you know, contact your local Aboriginal community member, which they do often and sometimes it's harder done than just saying that, you know? 29:17.157 --> 29:21.080 [SPEAKER_01]: So then they might just skip the lesson because they couldn't find that local Aboriginal community 29:22.501 --> 29:34.767 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of just scrapping the lesson, think about what elements can you take from it that you can you can contribute with the knowledge that you have or with the knowledge that you can go away and gain. 29:34.827 --> 29:46.573 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, whether you go and do your own research, whether you take that lesson and you talk to, you know, you're principal and say, where can I find these connections, 29:49.482 --> 29:54.344 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's the most common mistake is people are just not just scrapping the lesson. 29:54.504 --> 29:55.444 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm not teaching it. 29:55.644 --> 30:06.128 [SPEAKER_01]: But there are ways that we can absolutely continue to bring culture, history and

perspective into the classroom without just saying, I can't do it. 30:06.308 --> 30:08.149 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know that's pretty soft option. 30:08.929 --> 30:11.750 [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, I would love to see it expanded more. 30:12.290 --> 30:15.752 [SPEAKER_00]: And if we were to expand more, what does it, what would that look like? 30:16.492 --> 30:17.574 [SPEAKER_00]: in the ideal classroom. 30:17.594 --> 30:25.326 [SPEAKER_00]: If we were to push a little bit harder to bring it into the curriculum to really celebrate perspectives, not just teaching it, but to celebrate it. 30:25.787 --> 30:28.492 [SPEAKER_00]: What does that look like in the future for Indigenous perspectives? 30:29.094 --> 30:35.336 [SPEAKER_01]: I think for Indigenous perspectives, it is intertwining it into your everyday lessons. 30:35.437 --> 30:44.480 [SPEAKER_01]: So, intertwining it with your mass, with your literacy, with your hizzi, all of your key learning areas and making those connections, finding those connections. 30:45.180 --> 30:51.623 [SPEAKER_01]: So that when you get to your native, when you get to reconciliation week, it's not like the students are sitting there going, 30:52.143 --> 31:14.558 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, this is that one time in here where we, you know, talk about Aboriginal culture, they're making those connections to the lessons that they've been taught throughout the whole year and, you know, this is, this is a time where we can take those, that knowledge and understanding from those lessons on, you know, that lesson on a random Tuesday afternoon that you did, you know, it's not just 31:16.119 --> 31:20.322 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not just taking the knowledge from a year ago when you celebrate a native or a year ago. 31:20.342 --> 31:20.802 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 31:21.242 --> 31:35.432 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm seeing now with the kids who are getting access and opportunities to those more consistent, frequent lessons where Aboriginal and Indigenous perspectives and content is intertwined with your everyday lessons. 31:35.932 --> 31:36.473 [SPEAKER_01]: They... 31:36.993 --> 31:40.436 [SPEAKER_01]: do have that positive light about learning about Aboriginal culture. 31:40.456 --> 31:41.276 [SPEAKER_01]: They're excited. 31:42.117 --> 31:49.822 [SPEAKER_01]: They get to NADOC and they're extra excited and they can make those connections for themselves and not be told by the teacher. 31:50.823 --> 31:58.308 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember a year ago when we did NADOC and we talked about culture, it's, you know, I remember the lessons that we've been doing for years. 32:04.953 --> 32:32.126 [SPEAKER_01]: Australia's identity, it's not separate, it's, you know, everyone has an opportunity to engage with it and to learn about culture and learn about history and, yeah, feel pride in, feel pride in it, even if you aren't indigenous, you have that pride in it, like I said, with that student, have that pride in it because they live in Australia, they grow up

in Australia, surrounded by Aboriginal culture and community because it is a part of Australia's identity. 32:32.677 --> 32:33.538 [SPEAKER_00]: and a huge part as well. 32:34.298 --> 32:43.426 [SPEAKER_00]: So guys, a big part of today's message and from our conversation today is that this type of respect and interaction doesn't require perfection. 32:44.367 --> 32:45.148 [SPEAKER_00]: What would you say to that? 32:45.927 --> 32:55.452 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it definitely doesn't require perfection, but it requires a great good intention, wanting to contribute to reconciliation. 32:56.172 --> 32:57.833 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are a lot of people who have that. 32:58.394 --> 33:05.998 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I've ever met a teacher who didn't have that fear coming from a place of, you know, 33:06.938 --> 33:07.539 [SPEAKER_01]: not caring. 33:08.260 --> 33:10.822 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's definitely that good intention. 33:10.862 --> 33:18.030 [SPEAKER_01]: It's definitely, you know, it's out there and it's great to see that a lot of teachers are coming to me and saying, I just don't want to get it wrong. 33:18.250 --> 33:23.275 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I want whatever I do to be accurate and I don't want to, you know, say the wrong thing. 33:24.376 --> 33:28.400 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, take that feeling of fear and saying, but hang on. 33:29.221 --> 33:45.270 [SPEAKER_01]: It's because I care, it's not because I don't care, it's because I care that is so important and so important to Aboriginal communities and Aboriginal elders and use that place of caring as an inspiration to go out and to do that research and to seek those connections. 33:45.771 --> 33:54.996 [SPEAKER_01]: Because when an Aboriginal person or elder community member, when they can see that you care, that means the world to community. 33:55.236 --> 34:02.320 [SPEAKER_00]: Just as we sort of come to the end of our conversation, can I ask you to finish this sentence for me? 34:02.980 --> 34:05.642 [SPEAKER_00]: The best thing a teacher can do is what? 34:06.702 --> 34:07.963 [SPEAKER_01]: The best thing a teacher can do. 34:08.143 --> 34:09.984 [SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to sum it off in just one sentence. 34:11.005 --> 34:17.789 [SPEAKER_01]: The best thing I think a teacher can do is, yeah, to come from a place of authenticity, to come from a place of caring, 34:21.315 --> 34:39.841 [SPEAKER_01]: Build your own understanding, build your own knowledge because when you come into a classroom, like with any lesson, when you come into a classroom and when you feel confident in what you're teaching, that lesson's gonna be 10 times better, but also that confidence, that doesn't mean that it has to be perfect. 34:40.101 --> 34:41.262 [SPEAKER_00]: Yep. 34:41.602 --> 34:43.102 [SPEAKER_01]: So also have that understanding as well. 34:43.462 --> 34:46.523 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm gonna throw just a bunch of like really fast questions out here now. 34:46.864 --> 34:48.384 [SPEAKER_00]: Think about it, indigenous perspective. 34:51.848 --> 34:52.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely. 34:52.928 --> 34:53.109 [SPEAKER_01]: Yep. 34:53.309 --> 34:58.191 [SPEAKER_01]: Think of it as like when you when you teach anything, you know, there's so many topics that I'm not an expert on. 34:58.771 --> 35:01.392 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, especially as a primary school teacher. 35:01.412 --> 35:09.476 [SPEAKER_01]: But I know a lot, but yeah, certainly not an expert, but I'm always going to be respectful and wanting to teach it as accurately as possible. 35:09.936 --> 35:10.216 [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome. 35:11.797 --> 35:13.597 [SPEAKER_00]: Is doing nothing worse than getting it wrong? 35:14.418 --> 35:15.218 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. 35:15.778 --> 35:19.920 [SPEAKER_01]: Because when you do nothing, it means that the students are learning nothing about it. 35:20.209 --> 35:23.490 [SPEAKER_00]: What's one thing that every Australian teacher should stop worrying about? 35:24.051 --> 35:29.493 [SPEAKER_01]: That's tough, because I want every teacher to stop worrying about being perfect. 35:30.193 --> 35:34.335 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want them to use it as an excuse to not teach it all. 35:35.655 --> 35:38.776 [SPEAKER_00]: One last one, do relationships matter more than resources? 35:39.236 --> 35:40.037 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely. 35:40.297 --> 35:44.458 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, like I said, in Aboriginal communities, relationship, Ken'ship is really important. 35:45.079 --> 35:48.080 [SPEAKER_01]: So, but also, I think, 35:49.493 --> 35:50.133 [SPEAKER_01]: they're connected. 35:51.213 --> 35:57.614 [SPEAKER_01]: So relationships really important, but they go hand in hand. 35:57.834 --> 35:58.535 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's stuff on. 35:58.995 --> 36:03.275 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Michael, thank you for joining us on the better question today. 36:03.815 --> 36:18.218 [SPEAKER_00]: We've really appreciated your insights and your knowledge around being able to help us to understand Indigenous perspectives and that it requires us to listen, to really build relationships, to keep learning and more importantly, be willing just to begin. 36:18.698 --> 36:25.825 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much for joining us today, and we look forward to seeing your resources online and hearing from you in the future. 36:26.266 --> 36:28.068 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks James, it's been really good chatting.