PROMOTED

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

“I laugh at it.” The accused speaks in the series finale. With Owen Bennett-Jones.
English
United States
PROMOTED

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00Pakistan cable to Washington 5 days after Benazir Bhutto death the government of Pakistan seems to be in a state of protracted confusion about the status of the investigation of Benazir bhutto's assassination of the felt it necessary to reiterate the government of Pakistan's clumsy handling off the investigation
00:00:34watch her assessment missed the point it's implied the state wanted to find out what happened please did arrest some low-level suspects in the weeks after the assassination but that cases of languished as the chief prosecutor in Benazir bhutto's case accepted when I speak to him lost the process has been possibly bad
00:01:04Muhammad had been waiting 7 months for a judge to hear the case after the previous one had been transferred and it wasn't the first judge that delay is the sixth judge was been transferred during the hearing of the toll because I don't see anything
00:01:32I'm done. I cannot get mad about it but it should have taken days took years
00:01:59a new judge was installed and he actually did something he'll to date today hearings I don't August 31st 2017 9 years 8 months and 4 days off the Benazir Bhutto was killed he wrote this the prosecution has miserably failed on each and every step the prosecution failed to punch in the chain of facts to collect the accused person and criminal conspiracy for the murder of Benazir Bhutto despite the confessions the physical evidence the DNA on the phone evidence
00:02:40no one has been convicted of her mother
00:02:46from the BBC World Service this is Owen bennett-jones with the assassination elements with an I add ministration and security of atticus's people who want me out to today we could have been prevented
00:03:10what went wrong
00:03:15this was not
00:03:18is Killzone tool
00:03:21intelligent people
00:03:24committed this crime
00:03:34episode 10 dead ends
00:03:38the state didn't want to know who killed Benazir was apparent straight after her mother
00:03:45the crime scene was littered with blood parties and food pairings that have been wrapped around the suicide vest about after the attack a police officer approached and ordered him to have the street he said that they've collected evidence and that we should watch the blood from the crime scene that was from the firefighters sworn statement spoken by an actor the firefighter began to turn on the water when one of his superiors who will say gave a statement intervened I went to him and I stopped him I said what are you doing he replied that police were asking the hoes down the crime scene
00:04:30I said please wait and let me awesome senior officers in this regard he found a senior police officer standing in the way of what is the next he said okay the scene is clear and you can wash it before saying that he also called someone on his mobile phone so the firefights is the police have collected 23 pieces of evidence thousands more will wash down the drain
00:05:08distrust in Pakistani institutions the president pervez Musharraf was under pressure to have outside investigate bettas his mother after roll if he was involved as she claimed that he would hardly run Affair investigation within a few days either late December early January I got in touch with her husband Asif and you need to have an international investigation of this now she believed that Musharraf was behind it and so how to put him on the spot weld demand a un investigation widower agreed on when his posse won the elections in the aftermath of her that he had the power to make the request for the United Nations to get involved a subsidiary
00:06:08wanted it he campaigned on it he would not have asked me to be on it if it wasn't intended to be very serious the UN accepted the commission was full of the UN commission was deadly serious they were adequate resources for it and it began with the strong suspicion that Musharraf and the Pakistan intelligence apparatus were indeed behind the murder on this wasn't to find some terrorist hiding in the tribal areas the reason for having the commission was in fact precisely because of the evidence that existed of the involvement of the Pakistani military and intelligence services
00:06:59Peter Galbraith ended up taking a job with the US government's ever since of the commission that be no boots no family friend on the investigation
00:07:10it would be run instead by a man who never been to Pakistan the Chilean Diplomat around nose
00:07:18even before we arrived and bikes that for her first inquiry our chief of staff man was hacked and they found out agenda officials weather information would end up losing his team to limit that movements to what they considered to be a safe part of Islamabad did you fail at risk risk it several times but not all the time I mean I'm not a fearful person I knew I was getting into something that was somewhat dangerous and I don't worry so much about you know what may happen to me I just tried to do my job refuse to let me he had a mandate and emission the idea was not to become a tribunal about to head Commission of inquiry into the fax and circle
00:08:18yes I understand it the original letter of request from Pakistan how to rob a different group break it was too I thought it had identify the culprits perpetrators organizes and financiers behind this heinous crime and that go to turn by survey to the phrase you said that facts and circumstances that's right there was some debate within the Pakistani government the mandates between those that wanted a deeper investigation I don't have wanted a more General inquiry those are the latter ones do you suspect that the people within the system in Pakistan arguing for a week of mandate where the people who fed that you might actually find out what happened and say so
00:09:18Santa speculation but what I can tell you is that it became clear that I was going to conduct a very serious investigation we began to receive any Zenus to say the least his team arrived in Pakistan a year-and-a-half after Benazir was killed over the next nine months he and his team interviewed more 250 officials and private citizens and have access to hundreds of documents and other evidence that for him most astonishing fact was that the site of the assassination instead of being cordoned off and instead of being secured was host by fire truck and cleaned up immediately question they had all kinds of
00:10:18responses like all they needed to have traffic moving again very soon we are going to see Bhutto died so when they investigating team arrived they couldn't find any evidence
00:10:44the officers names was so disease and Quorum shahzad in the secret files I've gathered they don't come off very well as these older the Elite Police Unit That was supposed to have surrounded bettas his vehicle away before the blast that's why I have a vehicle was alone after the attack azizul say refuse to allow an autopsy even though it was his legal duty to do so the killer in that phone intercept we've heard so much about earlier in the series so there was on the part of the police clearance criminal negligence in our opinion
00:11:33Pakistani Court laser agreed in August 2017 it convicted the two officers of criminal negligence that sentence them to 17 years in prison
00:11:48box of course they feed released
00:11:56this is the 10th episode and find out you'll know enough about how it all works to realize the two City police officers lift without high reproval
00:12:12remember the firefighter saying he stole the CD of policemen make a cold before he confirm the order to wash down the scene Melissa wanted to know who was at the other end of that Cole and then we found out that they had received phone calls from high military officials about the washing out of the site city of police officer in Pakistan and you receive a call from as you say senior military officials telling you to clean up the scene I mean what can you do that's true but they had a responsibility but obviously they were bigger fish in this there were many that one then I should be disappeared impossible because
00:13:12you're aware that they receive phone calls from City of Industry of figures probably telling them to clean it all up when you try to the zoo that's and interview them and what happened there where Minifigures in the establishment that we wanted to interview and in some cases that they refused and we have no power to force them they did not want this investigation to go any further any deeper there were many people that wanted manageable to that and then wanted to turn the page
00:13:51Geraldo a Windows never find out who the rap in the police officers spoke to in the military you might wonder why didn't the police officer who ordered the hosing time just give the name if we want them to do it to the cold
00:14:05I lost another police officer that question and he said what would you do prison anyone with the power 2 plus against someone like Benazir Bhutto definitely kill a police officer or his family
00:14:31I think I know who Casey older but I didn't have enough evidence to publishing name I've run into the same problems but those did they were plenty of military and intelligence people I wanted to speak to they refused
00:14:53but despite that lack of cooperation despite the week of Monday twitch prevented him from a sign in criminal responsibility around him and his final report to the United Nations was pretty good much better than many expected it laid out in clear detail the chain of events in the lead-up and aftermath of Benazir his death and it talked about the role of the deep State The Establishment under the phase of President Musharraf
00:15:39April 27th 2013 was a remarkable day in Pakistani history at 3:20 in the afternoon federal police officers leading the boots of Investigation arrived at the Villa in a posh Islamabad District coach actions that they were there to do what no officers had done in the history of Pakistan interrogator former Army Chief military ruler and president it was the home of pervez Musharraf
00:16:14what does hold of a copy of What's called the police case diary for the meeting it's never been published it says officers began by telling the sheriff they believed he was involved in the conspiracy to kill Benazir Bhutto then they questioned him for almost 2 hours we've had an act to read some of the nights one of the investigators made immediately after the required Corporation has not been extended by the accused it sent it to ship his burden to other state function Ruiz and has to Liberty given vague onzas the accused is quite clever and answer the questions very tightly because he is not a notary person that has considerable experience in government matters
00:17:014 months later prosecutors charge prevents Musharraf with murder criminal conspiracy for murder and facilitation for murder he denies the charges and is fighting the cases from abroad I met him in his apartment in Dubai you would like to go back to Pakistan I guess I'm Jewel facing this Benazir Bhutto legal case the first response to the charges against you in the Pluto case
00:17:34honestly I thought I loved it it in the case which by any farther stretch of the imagination does not involve doing this the allegations against Musharraf on numerous pairs that phone call we heard about in episode 3 but is it was on Capitol Hill in Washington lobbying for support a mobile phone rang she said it was Musharraf and took the call in private then she returned to her Aid box Eagle he was conspiring she was very very pale she looks physically and emotionally upset she told me that she felt personally threatened by him she said he threatened me he told me not to come back he warned me not to come back he said he will not be responsible for what's going to happen to me if he comes back and then he said that her safety or security was a function of her relationship with him
00:18:33but she took it really is a threat absolutely
00:18:38what do you say about that phone call that is a very stupid Margaret I never bought two ladies I would never do this that's her relationship with me future depends on the relationship with me or anything this is a total lie I want to know nobody's investigating let me see that telephone very very very descriptive that I have never spoken to her I haven't spoken to her when she came here and she was being in danger or I spoke to her in Abu Dhabi when we were in and out of business in all that transcript of Fame records has ever been produced to corroborate whether the coal happened that is his husband asked if the daughter was with her that day she said that he's trying to
00:19:27tricking me
00:19:29but I won't be threatened by this
00:19:33Musharraf denies that cool ever happened
00:19:37you can deny all this want Mark she going to set it in his testimony in court
00:19:44you were president at the time this was being investigated and yet the phone records of that cold have never been part of the prosecution case. Female foxes I'm sure he was using a phone reception which could not be traced to him or traced to anybody
00:20:06and I'm sure he had a secure enough for but it's not just Michelle is fine but has never been produced
00:20:29let's assume for a moment the Moxi go and others have testified
00:20:37but still a long way from mother I asked them and prosecute in the sheriff Mohammed as a cherry tree what evidence he actually had there's no direct evidence against him to link up with the dentist if you didn't you said I just beautiful. The story was Musharraf would make the money corruption charges against Venezuela and her husband go away on business it would support the President also Musharraf wanted Benazir Bhutto to come back after the elections as we know she ignored that part of the deal
00:21:32cheat against his wishes return to Pakistan
00:21:41the chief prosecutor says there's more evidence been is it I'll smash security but was denied then there's the phone call we just had a badge and the email released cost of bettas is Beth in which she blames maschera be coming back in episode 7 so this is the record I want to come in because I have no right to.
00:22:17of course this another way to approach the question of who killed Benazir Bhutto it doesn't involve collecting evidence or interrogating suspects it's the method used by conspiracy theorists one of those who love to ask benefited President Bush off her killing I lost I lost the most and I know that if she was alive maybe I would still have in the president who died killers and I don't know if anyone knows me this is not my line of thinking
00:23:07but when you say who benefits and who do you mean I had said you'd once that the beneficiary quite clearly and obviously
00:23:18that is a surprisingly common view one poll conducted in Pakistan blast awesome find a huge majority of respondents believe sidari had his wife killed to become leader of the party even though as we said before there is no evidence to support it whatsoever but the claim is out there so I put it to a subsidiary
00:23:42people can say what they feel like
00:23:45but they're not the father of my children
00:23:53so what you say to those people
00:23:56I just said shut up
00:23:59what that's what I say shut up it's my wife the mother of my children how do you know have you had live suicide circumstances
00:24:12penile Newton related to Spain
00:24:15if you haven't then just shut up
00:24:19I should sit sorry son pillow opinion polls show that many pakistanis thing your father was involved blaming the victim you might have noticed that for some reason the Pakistani narrative specially internally is orchestrated to blame the victim and one has to wonder why is that
00:24:42well that's because the people involved in my mother's assassination know that there's the United Nations commission report know that there is a quite damning investigation by the government itself
00:24:57they want to muddy the waters they don't want the fax to reach the average Pakistani
00:25:05to protect Musharraf
00:25:07and the facts are the facts of mosharraf mated my mother
00:25:12it's what his mother said to but of course of course has yet to rule and that will only happen if Musharraf returns to Pakistan to answer the charge that haven't seen his apartment into by I don't think you'll be in a rush to leave
00:25:32what are motive pakistanis comes understand is this after Benazir Bhutto was killed her husband one power so he was in a great position to investigate what happened but he didn't by my Reckoning there is a pretty obvious explanation the Deep State didn't want him to and he was afraid
00:26:01as he once told me when he was president what's my chief objective in this term of office to be alive at the end of it
00:26:10what if he didn't want to upset the Army when he was president why upset it now but he has even less protection he is still not blaming the army
00:26:28when you were in power some of you seen your vices and said it was difficult for you to investigate what happened because the Army didn't want you to
00:26:40the institution is not to be blamed because it had nothing to do with it so what's the Army I can strengthen your mind exchanging my mind the fact that you have to finish all the rules the world C said out to kill her I can give it a lot of words so better than Masood Masood latest on the Delaware New Jersey practically who got killed
00:27:14Al Qaeda guess when we will be out most of them
00:27:19but those retired officers and others who possibly were involved some have died
00:27:25I'm the maximum that's the others I think I left the spot
00:27:33if that's the spot
00:27:36you know running with the added hunting with the Hound
00:27:41running with a hare and hunting with the Hound Intelligence Officers sworn to fight militants who instead conspired to what with them
00:27:53structure Pakistani remark the institution of the Army is not to be blamed but former State officials well maybe they were involved what's to be done about it nothing that's how it goes the realities of Pakistani politics stuck weave Dodge try not to confront
00:28:172010 you said you knew who the killers were
00:28:23and when the time is right you would reveal that information is the timer on
00:28:33what are you waiting for I'm waiting for this case to reach Tucson
00:28:40Houston fight images
00:28:43he's talking about the low-level jihadis who were cleared but who remain in jail and the fish hasn't reached this conclusion I don't want to say anything make sure you have it spitting on the case
00:28:58and then you believe you have more information then I believe I have to get to water flush which you possess already somebody possessed somebody you know the information about this joint intelligence investigations
00:29:18what's a mess former president zardari believes new nuggets of information will still come out what about President Musharraf
00:29:28do they will ever know who killed
00:29:32how do we can know it if the government wants to investigate and find out but unfortunately that's not the case they don't want to investigate and find out all they want is to remind me political Vendetta going on
00:29:50the Rogue elements within the establishment who were in touch with the Taliban Bottle Amazon
00:29:57what a possibility yes indeed she is quite polarized on religious lines in this polarization there could be any kind of really answer that could have had a bearing on it at that
00:30:13good good yes because she was not in the religious Lobby entirely speculation review heard things that make you wonder about that no I don't have any sex available but I might assessment and I think the assessment is a lady who is known
00:30:53to be inclined towards the West
00:30:56it seems especially by those elements amazing statement a former Army Chief a former president says elements within the establishment may have colluded to kill Benazir Bhutto
00:31:23like I said what a mess
00:31:27so where do we go to his son Bilal has an acid summary to self confessing accused terrorists who during the investigation showed no remorse for having committed this act what are acquitted and that ignored the United Nations investigation that ignore the government investigation ignored phone calls it ignored DNA evidence so they let off the terrorist which to be honest I didn't expect I expected it okay to get a scapegoat and protect mosharraf and the others but you know at least a terrorist
00:32:09no the police officers who watch the way the scene where convicted they have since been freed on bail and are back at work Musharraf who should have been convicted in absentia his lawyers representing him in the case instead of being convicted Academy fugitive and separated his childhood that will continue when he deems it fit to return to Pakistan so does an absolute insulting travesty to Justice and it's a shame Edition system in Pakistan is stacked against the Wyndham
00:32:49I don't think we'll ever know the full story it's been a decade but guilty men will take their secrets to the Grave
00:33:01in Pakistan no one ever thought the truth would come out anyway so there's little public pressure the medium move down years ago
00:33:12Tennessee is autobiography was called daughter of the East many though saw her as a daughter of the West the ease with which she moves through both worlds impressed many but alienated some it's safe to say the Taliban hate people like her but just ice explain why she was killed
00:33:36show me the answer is no while I can't be sure why she was killed I think I know I just has to do with nuclear weapons her opponents in the states value Pakistan's nuclear Arsenal above all else it is for them the Supreme guarantor of Pakistani Independence that neither America or India can defeat at the self-appointed Guardians of the bum retired and serving generals the messenians bureaucrats the Nationalist the islamists they never trusted been there with the bum in her first government they wouldn't let her the Prime Minister even told the country's new clear installations as the president of the time told her you don't need to
00:34:30shortly before that's Benazir Bhutto had spoken in public in Washington about cooperating with the International Community over Pakistan's nuclear proliferation she suggested that she would be willing to hand over the father of the Pakistani nuclear bomb the scientist AQ Khan for questioning by the international atomic energy agency has confessed to exporting weapons of mass destruction many pakistanis are cynical about whether to have done this without any official sanction why we do not agree at this stage to have any Western access to AQ Khan we do believe that the international atomic energy commission would have the right to put questions to a coupon
00:35:24I believe that's what killed her she'd crossed the reddest of old red lines the Deep State fan she'd return to power in Pakistan
00:35:35are they couldn't let that happen
00:35:46many of you have written comments about the series thank you and if you have complained that we presented to publisher of a picture of Benazir Bhutto by not going into the corruption allegations against her and it's true we haven't gone into that I did investigate those issues when she was alive and concluded that there was Swiss bank accounts filled with millions of dollars which could not be accounted for in fact that somebody is Benazir Bhutto avoided contact with me I suspect because I'd written on that issue
00:36:21but I come to think that the manner of her death transcended the corruption
00:36:27I have to drive through fire to get to her funeral literally Rogers when laying waste to parts of her home province of send they knew about the corruption ever wanted but they were in Rage 2 said that it was quite frightening it was a case of stopping face the Rice's or just cry come no choice ready we went through the flames
00:36:53but what was it if I said that the brought Pakistan to its knees
00:36:58it was no secret
00:37:00an extremist
00:37:04assassinate me it was her courage is going to require in Karachi in the streets
00:37:31corrupt politicians in this world but few at the end of that lives Embrace higher ideals with such a fervent grass that that willing to die for them this is a battle for democracy Red Nation
00:37:58Venice is was at a relic that she knew it was coming she looked her animals in the I study as a rough and defied them we will not be intimidated with herself
00:38:14Toby will not stop a campaign will not stop a struggle was an act of redemption
00:38:31amazing contacts in Pakistan production coordinator Janet Staples catches organized signed engineer James Beard mixed it all the editor was and the rippin and the series producer who what type how to tell this story
00:39:11was Neil rozzelle
00:39:19I've published everything I can about the murder of Benazir Bhutto and that's it thanks for listening

Transcribed by algorithms. Report Errata
Disclaimer: The podcast and artwork embedded on this page are from BBC World Service, which is the property of its owner and not affiliated with or endorsed by Listen Notes, Inc.

EDIT

Thank you for helping to keep the podcast database up to date.
PROMOTED

RECOMMENDATIONS