Full Transcript for Causal Catch-Up #10: PAX Unplugged 2024

of zines. A lot of zine type RPG. Yeah, a lot of independent 48 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:52,640 RPG action here, the footprint for that kind of thing is rather big for the size of convention, 49 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,640 it seems to me. Or at least maybe it's just buried, you know, maybe I don't see it at GenCon, 50 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,320 because there's so much other stuff in my frame of view. But it was visible here in a way that I 51 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,760 loved. It was really cool. I bought this fun one just for personal. It's not very subject matter. 52 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,640 It's about, you know, supernatural horror. But but it came with like a solo adventure that's 53 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:14,360 printed, literally printed on a barf bag. So like stuff like that, which is really cool. Yeah, 54 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:22,280 you know, and I think part of that is GenCon is like all the big dogs are there. Yeah. And so some 55 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:28,560 of the small dogs get kind of pushed out a little bit and maybe not pushed out per se, 56 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:33,240 like intentionally, but in your attention, like I mean, this is sort of what I was trying to say, 57 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:39,520 like they're very well may be there, but it's harder to see them. You miss the trees for the 58 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:44,600 forest, so to speak. So one of the first things we did is we went down to the the vendor hall and 59 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:51,800 found the kind of alley of the smallest booths, which usually means that those are the smaller, 60 00:05:51,800 --> 00:06:02,040 newer companies and perhaps more niche subjects to be to be discovered in the in the the aisles. 61 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:10,680 And we stopped by this one booth that had a bunch of these types of RPGs that are very, 62 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:16,320 very small form like tiny, tiny books. Sometimes slim, slim, sometimes printed as like, you know, 63 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:24,080 almost seen like objects. And we've been kind of auguling these these types of publications 64 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:33,920 throughout our our visit here. And one of them that that stood out to us was about a record 65 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,720 store. Yeah, it's called Save the Music Damn the Man, I think, right? Yeah, so we spoke with 66 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:48,160 someone named Hannah. Yeah, Hannah Schaefer, maybe. It might be Hannah Schaefer, we'll find out. 67 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:55,280 That makes the edit, I got it right. Yeah, so we spoke with her and she had had some really 68 00:06:55,280 --> 00:07:02,000 interesting things to say about niche design. Hi, my name is Hannah. I am part of Turtle 69 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,600 Bun, a game design two person cooperative. Right now, I'm talking about our role playing game 70 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:15,800 Damn the Man Save the Music. It is inspired by the movie Empire Records. And if you've ever 71 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:21,320 seen Empire Records, it is a 90s movie about a bunch of punks trying to save their independent 72 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,960 record store from being bought out by the man. I think it's a really good example of how role 73 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:32,800 playing games can go like super, super niche into a specific subject, and also kind of take 74 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,520 what was maybe like problematic about the 90s and update it to be something that can be 75 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:44,480 relevant to now. So that is one of the things that we love about making indie games is that you 76 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,080 can sort of like, there's, you can't really go too narrow because there is a game for everyone. 77 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Which is something on this show, like obviously, we're familiar with, like we've played games 78 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,560 like Zhongxu, and we've talked a lot about like Coyote and Crow and other things like that. 79 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:04,600 So it was really great to talk with her and her experiences, you know, coming up with that, 80 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,280 that concept. I bought a copy. Yeah. I'm gonna try to play it. I know somebody who's quite 81 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,600 fond of the film Empire Records. Yeah. I might convince them to play it with me. They know who 82 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:21,040 they are. Then, you know, there's, it's really interesting to hear from a variety of designers. 83 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:29,480 We talked with designers who have different approaches to how they come up with the theme, 84 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:39,760 how they mature their theme as they are designing the project, the game. And one of them is perhaps 85 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:45,760 a more traditional approach to researching the subject, the obsession. Yeah, the designer behind 86 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,360 obsession, which I don't know if we've just, we may have very well discussed this game on the pod 87 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,720 before. I think we may have mentioned it. It's been around for a little while now, and I know 88 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,560 one of my colleagues at UNC got a couple of copies and brought them into the lab because 89 00:08:56,560 --> 00:09:00,560 we've been trying to kind of like lure the Austin, the Jane Austen scholars into the game lab to 90 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:04,400 do some events around that game. Because the game is essentially like you're managing a Pride 91 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:09,680 and Prejudice era country estate in England. Yeah. But dilapidated one. It's a dilapidated one, 92 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:15,240 and you have servants and costs, you know, and like bills and upkeep, and you have to try and 93 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:20,920 throw parties and host eligible bachelors and young ladies and try and make matches and blah, 94 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,160 blah, blah, become the center of social life.

So it's kind of like Bridgerton, the board game, 95 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:30,640 or Pride and Prejudice, sort of the board game. But yeah, we caught up with Stan, 96 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:36,200 and he pulled us aside and told us a little bit about the like, the sort of behind the music, 97 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:42,920 if anyone remembers VH1, the like behind the behind the board of that game and where it came from. 98 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:50,040 My name is Dan Halligan with K&T Games, and I'm the developer of Obsession. Obsession is a game 99 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,640 that I designed initially for my wife. We went to go play Terra Mystica, and she says, 100 00:09:54,640 --> 00:10:00,200 I don't want to be giants or swarming. She says, let's go watch down Abby. So I got that idea, 101 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,520 tried to find something like that, couldn't find it, because I want to crunch for me, 102 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:10,040 and I want a theme for her. And so what I did is I've always had a love of Victorian literature. 103 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:15,720 I read the literature, I love it to death, Pride and Prejudice and the different dramas and the 104 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:23,120 Victorian dramas. And so I had a little bit of a background on what I wanted to do. So what I did 105 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,760 is that I realized that people don't want to play chess with Bobby Fischer. If they see somebody 106 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:33,520 who's an expert at 400 games that's behind them, they're not going to sit down and play because 107 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,640 while I'm trying to figure out how to move my pawn, you've already known the pathway to victory. 108 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:44,720 And so what I wanted to do is insert, following the theme, Victorian fate into the design. In other 109 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:50,120 words, the best player can't always win. In fact, I don't even care if you want to win, 110 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,560 is your primary objective. I want to knock you off your sweet spot and make you tactically 111 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:59,920 respond to something that comes completely out of left field because that was the literature of 112 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:05,920 the time. The wife and the attic, the who is well-abe, things of that nature. And I was able to do 113 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,640 that with randomness. And I really believe that randomness represents story. And I believe that 114 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:19,920 pure strategy represents more analytical power. And so with the stories, I was able to give 115 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:26,840 individual stories to every one of my, say, 150 cards, which actually linked to the favors that 116 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,480 they would generate when you hosted those events. And that was to keep the theme, to keep the theme. 117 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,960 I even make when you draw a card, you're supposed to show it to everybody and explain how you came 118 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:44,800 to that connection. And that was for the purpose of reinforcing the theme. And I have had more fun 119 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,640 losing this game than I've had winning it. When I get a whole hand of cad's and scoundrels and 120 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:55,920 gossips, it's great fun because there's a bunch of story there. So I think the magic of thematic 121 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:04,600 games is that you have to lean into, you have to fight against a tendency in the hobby for people 122 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:11,240 to use randomness as a pejorative of a game. When you look at our hobby, they will complain, 123 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,960 they have complained about this. So I actually wrote a little piece on my website that says, 124 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:23,400 don't buy this game until you know what you're actually going to run into. And I document what 125 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,840 you're going to run into in a funny story. So that, and I've had people come along and say, I read 126 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:34,360 that I was in the wrong category. And I said, he wrote that I'm going to get it anyway. And you 127 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:40,600 know what? I got past it and I like what I have there for a certain audience. So that's sort of 128 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,120 how I played theme is the central piece of obsession. Yeah, that was a really interesting booth 129 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:51,800 because it was a whole family. It was his older sister. And I suppose his older brother, I guess 130 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:55,320 she said he was the youngest. And then of course, Warly Gague, who we also caught up with is a 131 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,960 family affair. Yeah, right. So that's Cole and Drew, who are brothers, but also there's a third 132 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,280 Warly brother, which we didn't know until we met. Yeah, it was interesting to see like, much smaller, 133 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,320 sort of independent booths in that they are in fact, these like family affairs. We also spoke 134 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,760 to another pair of designers who were a married couple. Yeah. So yeah, it was interesting. 135 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:22,120 Yeah, who have a very different approach to the development of their theme. They kind of drew 136 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:28,640 more from personal experiences. Hi, I'm Zara Reed. I'm one of the designers of Kavango Board Game. 137 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:35,400 Hi, I'm Matt Brown, and I'm the other designer of Kavango Board Game. And we're married. So it's 138 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:42,000 my husband. And we were in Botswana for the past three years in Southern Africa. And when we were 139 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:47,680 there, we got inspired by all of the conservation success stories that we saw day in, day out. 140 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:52,360 I personally worked in conservation and I was working on the legal wildlife trade out there. 141

00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:58,360 And yeah, we just got so inspired by what people were doing and how they were restoring land to 142 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:04,280 nature. And Matt's always been interested in board games and designing them as a hobby. And we just 143 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:09,120 collaborated together to make Kavango. We were kind of working on an idea for a wildlife game. 144 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,960 And when we moved to Botswana, it just really captured our imagination. We thought this absolutely 145 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:21,040 makes sense. And particularly that idea of transforming an area of unproductive land into a 146 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,080 thriving nature reserve just really captured our imagination. And we just thought it's such a cool 147 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:30,520 story and one that we had just not seen told very often in the media, for example. And we both 148 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:36,400 personally believe having words in conservation sustainability believe that optimistic, positive 149 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:42,320 narratives really help inspire people much more than negativity. So we really wanted to design a 150 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:48,680 game that brought that positivity to people. And this message that you too, with like some good 151 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:54,600 actions can do some amazing things. So the game is based in Southern Africa. And it's inspired by 152 00:14:54,600 --> 00:15:01,200 this trans boundary region called the Kavango Zambizi Trans Trans Frontier Conservation Area, 153 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,400 which we shortened to Kavango for our game. And that's where I was working. It's the largest 154 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:12,480 trans boundary conservation area in the world. It spans five countries. And it's a historic homeland 155 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:18,200 to some of the most iconic species in the world, like elephants. It's really important my great 156 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:24,560 tree root for zebras and wildebeest. So this area is huge and it captures loads of different 157 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:31,480 ecosystems as well and different environments and a huge array of life. And we wanted to really 158 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,640 tell that story. So when we first designed the game, we were thinking maybe we'll have different 159 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,440 landscapes across the world and you can play in different ones. And then the more we saw Southern 160 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Africa, the more we just thought we have to dive deep and give all of the animals here their time 161 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:51,400 to shine. So we've even got elephant shrews in our game. We've got pangolins. And we've got all 162 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,600 these different types of antelopes. So all the amazing species and different animals that are 163 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:02,200 on show in Southern Africa are in our game. We've got 160 different species cards, which we're all 164

00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,840 drawn from photos that we took in the field. And Matt did the illustration himself. I think the only 165 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,440 one is the pangolin that we didn't see in the wild. Everything about the game, the style, the art, 166 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:18,520 the mechanisms are designed to reflect life and to reflect what people are really doing in terms 167 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:24,400 of conservation in that part of the world. To also reflect the beauty of nature as it is. So we've 168 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,920 used quite a simple and realistic style in the gameplay and the design. And we've tried to bring 169 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:37,680 in some nice colors to show the vibrancy of life in that region. One of the things that from my 170 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,760 point of view, doing the design, which was really interesting, was trying to categorize all those 171 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:49,160 huge variety of species into different categories to make a playable game. And how you build up 172 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:54,400 your ecosystem with those different types of animals. And a lot of army and army about which 173 00:16:54,400 --> 00:17:00,000 category this animal falls into. It was a really fun process to go through, because we really wanted 174 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:06,800 to include as wide variety as possible. We actually even clarify in the appendix of the game 175 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:13,400 about why we characterize some things as they are, like the Maribus d'Orc we classified as a 176 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:20,800 bird of prey, which might be debatable. But we made these classifications based on their position 177 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:27,080 in the food chain, for example, and their size and how realistic they would be as prey species for 178 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:33,560 certain animals and how you could build up that ecosystem as you were trying to. So yeah, 179 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:39,080 that was all part of making the game as realistic and asthmatic as possible. 180 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:45,280 It was really nice to kind of look at the pieces and we're admiring the cards, particularly 181 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:51,880 because they have a huge amount of cards for animals. And they apparently took photos and 182 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:56,360 then drew the cards based on those photos. On their own personal like safari photos, essentially. 183 00:17:56,360 --> 00:18:03,760 Yeah. So it was really nice. They were very generous and gave us their time to, and their 184 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:09,040 booth was incredibly busy. Yeah, they were doing really good business. And they were part of that 185 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:15,280 sort of like newer game zone. So they were, I think, maybe this is their first foray into this 186 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:20,840 kind of scene. And they seem to be doing a really wonderful job. I do think here's another random 187 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:26,720

passing observation. And maybe it's again, a false impression. I also felt that this convention 188 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:32,560 was more international. Yeah. I think that you will find that when we listen back to this, 189 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,840 a lot of the people we spoke with were not from the United States. And I think it's just a little, 190 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,600 it's just that much closer to, you know, Europe, Africa, for instance, these places that are in 191 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:48,320 the Eastern Hemisphere. The East Coast is that much closer than India is that much farther. 192 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,080 And so it's interesting. I don't think you'll hear much of this, but in the recordings that we 193 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:59,880 got, but there's a lot of British accents here. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of British Isles. Yeah, 194 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:06,440 people from Europe are coming to this a little bit more, I think, than GenCon. Yeah. Yeah. The 195 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:12,200 other piece of sort of research that happens, we mentioned that we kind of ran into the Worlys 196 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:19,440 again. We knew we would. And we actually had a wonderful opportunity to sit down with the designer 197 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:24,680 of a Molly house. So we're going to be releasing a deep dive. We did a full, full, full feature 198 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,560 interview with Joe and Cole was there as well, because Cole has co-designed some of the game. So 199 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,920 yeah, stay tuned for that. Yeah. Well, but that was wonderful to sit down with them. We actually 200 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,800 got to play the final version of Molly house finally. And you'll, so you'll hear more about that. 201 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:46,920 But the really exciting thing too, additionally was this play test we did with Drew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 202 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:56,040 We got to sit down and play a brand new version of a game called Hellraisers. I'm Drew Ehrlich, 203 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:04,760 and we're looking at Hellraisers in Kanaugh County, which we're going to launch. It's crowdfunding 204 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:14,600 campaign in March, hopefully of 2025. This is a game designed by Luke Eveson and Matilda Simonson. 205 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:22,040 Both designers that made this game for the Consim game jam. So they made it over a weekend and 206 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:27,400 then really liked what they worked on. And they continued working on it until we heard about it. 207 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:32,760 And I've had the privilege of working as a developer on this project for over a year with Joe 208 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,920 Schmidt, who's done some awesome stuff with GMT too. But this is a game about the labor movement 209 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:46,440 in West Virginia at the start of the 20th century. It's one to three players. But the core dynamic 210 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:52,760

is revolves around two coal companies that are fighting for profits and the labor player that 211 00:20:52,760 --> 00:21:01,560 is trying to organize and capture the outrage and create the demands that led to the organization 212 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:10,920 and founding of a union. Play happens in a pack style, buy play, take two actions and have bonus 213 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:17,560 action style, where coal company owners are going to buy cards that place workers on mines. And 214 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:25,880 they might need to buy thugs that protect those workers, these private detectives that were sort 215 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:31,560 of in free reign in these like front tiers of West Virginia where it was close to martial law that 216 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:39,320 had not been really established but was in effect. Now the labor player will have those workers become 217 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:47,480 strikers collectively trying to shut down mines. A mine that has more strikers on it, more strikers 218 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:54,280 under the card than workers and thugs on the card is a shut down site. Coal companies cannot 219 00:21:54,280 --> 00:22:00,120 use actions or special abilities on a shut down mine so they're going to harass those strikers to 220 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:07,080 get them back to work and workers might not survive. Strikers might not survive, dead pieces become 221 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:12,200 outrage for the labor player and at the end of every labor player's turn they'll take those 222 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,160 outrage cubes and spread them across the market. Cards that are bought from the market that have 223 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:23,480 cubes on them double in outrage and go back to you and certain cards like newspaper cards can 224 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:30,920 convert that outrage into a demand and when you meet demands you will achieve closer progress on 225 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:37,960 having your union recognized. But this is a game about a pivotal moment in US history and this takes 226 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:47,960 place in the events surrounding the Cabin Creek and Paint Creek strikes 1910 to 1912 which led to 227 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,960 the battle at Blair Mountain which was the largest armed conflict in the United States history since 228 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:59,480 the Civil War and ever since then. A million bullets were fired and this is a movement led 229 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:04,680 instantaneously by women and children fighting for their families better living and working conditions. 230 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:11,320 A granny locked her rocking chair to a railroad track to prevent a coal company car from leaving 231 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:18,040 town because things were so bad. So when you get paid not in this prototype that we have in front 232 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:25,400 of us right with not finished art we'll be handling dollars that are script right. There are dice and 233 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,360 cubes that represent workers, strikers or outrage depending on their location. Red cubes are going 234 00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,960 to represent radicals that coal company owners are very annoyed at dealing with cubes that can't be 235 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:41,480 easily pushed back to work and then dice that are going to be resolving checks but also represent 236 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,440 the coal that is going to be dug and moved out of mines. It's really exciting it's a cool game 237 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:51,080 it's a really important and sort of interesting historical topic and theme and the game was 238 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:56,360 already pretty fun. Yeah it was it was really fun we had a great time yes sure there's some work 239 00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:03,960 that needs to be done on it but and we have a few times at Gen Con played early versions of games 240 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:10,440 but we did with Drew with Molly House. That was a trip today to sit down and play with Joe 241 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,240 in the convention the final product version of that game and remember after two like almost two 242 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,720 years ago yeah oh it's a year and a half ago I guess yeah two years ago they they sort of like 243 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,640 you know told us about announced it when we did the interview with them and then a year and a half 244 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:28,200 ago we played that very early paper prototype just like the one Drew had of Hell Rages and like you 245 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,720 know Molly House has been such a great success and you know congratulations to everybody there on 246 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:38,360 that game I can't wait to see how Hell Rages turns out. Yeah and the cool thing about sitting down to 247 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:44,840 play with Drew is that you know that's another part of the research that that gets done with games 248 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:54,040 and you know they you'll hear the way that Drew wants to communicate through the game and then 249 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:59,720 as we're playing we're talking about like how is the message received right and and that's that's 250 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:07,480 really amazing to think about how that theme continues to get massaged into every piece of it. 251 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,000 Yeah and it's really it was a privilege to like have an opportunity to give some feedback 252 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,240 you know and like participate in that early prototype stage. Yeah the West Virginia the 253 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:21,640 Mine Wars Museum in Maituan West Virginia is actually a pretty new museum and they 254 00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:27,240 we have been in conversation with them sort of once we signed this project in part because of 255 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,600 their collections and their educational resources but in part because it's a bunch of incredible 256 00:25:33,240 -->

00:25:37,160 folks and educators that know this history really really well and we want to make sure 257 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:43,800 that this game is being celebrated and championed in West Virginia and the also hearing even at 258 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:50,360 folks at the show that live like near Canal River that are in the county where the events happened 259 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,160 where they didn't know about this history at this show has been also amazing but the research that 260 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:02,760 they're doing really the collections that they have and they are presenting are directly helping 261 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:10,120 the project working with West Virginia University and the museums that have scans of the photos that 262 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:16,360 we want to feature and recreate in the game to do both color balancing but also reprint them. 263 00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:21,720 These these are not widely circulated photos of really intense awful living conditions and working 264 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:27,720 conditions and then some museums that have access to the newspapers because so much of the game 265 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:34,840 features editorial cartoons of miners drawing like experiencing their grief and their frustrations 266 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:41,320 through art where they're drawing the atrocities that are sometimes being published in papers 267 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:48,920 or being picked up by like like socialist broadsheets. A professor and someone that works in exhibitions 268 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,840 at West Virginia University ran an exhibit on the history of editorial cartoons around the 269 00:26:54,840 --> 00:27:01,400 mine wars and has been sending us like again PDF scans of newspapers that I've never ever seen before 270 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:09,000 of incredible wild cartoons which is great because again there are scholars that have worked on 271 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,320 on this particular period from an art history perspective from a historical perspective 272 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:21,320 and they have not thought about like interactive immersive game experiences before so it's been 273 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:26,760 really fun to work with specifically curation and exhibit managers. So it was great to talk with 274 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:35,400 Drew and sit down for a few minutes for actually an hour and a half and play the game. It's a game 275 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:43,720 that really boldly tackles a pretty serious subject. It doesn't shy away. Which you know 276 00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,760 should be no surprise from the company that brought you to the giant company. The representation of 277 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,720 death and that feels like pretty intense. Yeah. And so that'll I don't know if that'll change 278 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:59,640 between now and when it gets released but I felt very troubled which I think you're supposed to. 279 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:07,960 It feel troubled by the way that pieces vanish from the board. And people get 280 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:16,200 disappear potentially or die in an accident. Yeah. And I think another game that we saw 281 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:22,920 and got to talk with the designer of that doesn't shy away from dealing with heavy political 282 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:31,320 subject matter is Azadi. Yeah. So we ran into Zane who is the designer of that game. 283 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:36,760 And that's so remind me this is like a sequel to Shazen. Yeah. Which is another game which you 284 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,640 have. I don't know if we've talked about this on the pod before or not. You might want to give 285 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,760 listeners just like a super quick over Shazen. Yeah. It's like a political intrigue game. 286 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,920 I mean it's been a while since I played it but it feels to me like it is a 287 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,320 like a simulation of like gerrymandering. Okay. You know you're like dealing with like how districts 288 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:04,920 like get how to manufacture an election result. Yeah. For other means. Yeah. And he produced 289 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,240 this other game. It's sort of like the inverse of that. And you'll hear him talk about that in 290 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:17,560 just a moment. But he very clearly wants to deal with political subject matter. And what was really 291 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,920 cool too is that he had all crew with him. Yeah. He really did. Yeah. And the the the filmmaker 292 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,720 that was there documenting this whole thing. They're from India. Yeah. So again this is they 293 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,120 had they had traveled from South Asia. I'm pretty sure. I actually don't know if they if he still 294 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,880 resides there. Perhaps they're based in the UK or they're based in Western Europe someplace. But 295 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,800 even still I don't think they're based in the US. That was not the impression I got. I also got the 296 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,040 impression that they were traveling. Yeah. But they were having a great time. They were part of 297 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,440 the Kickstarter booth. Yeah. They were featured. There's a big huge Kickstarter presence actually 298 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:55,640 bigger here than at GenCon. Right in the middle of the room. And they had a bunch of like featured 299 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,040 projects that they gave some real estate to. And so as I was one of those and they also had a 300 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,640 partner with them who was doing another game whose name I'm forgetting right now which is based in 301 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,320 like South Asian folklore and mythology and stuff like this. More of a fantasy game. Yeah. And it's 302 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,840 also it's like a brawler game. Yeah. But it's a

fantasy brawler. But it seems like it has a little 303 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:22,360 more depth to it than most brawler games do. But yeah. So it was great. Great to talk with him 304 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720 and hear about his process. Hi. I'm Zen Mimmin. I'm the creator of Shasen and Azadi. 305 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:35,160 Azadi is a follow up prequel to Shasen. In Shasen your politicians fighting an election. 306 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,520 In Azadi we flip that on its head. There is no nation for an election to occur. The first 307 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:45,320 stage of the game is nation building which means you work together and you fight the 308 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:51,320 Imperials or you fight the colonizers who are controlling your nation. If all of you work 309 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:58,040 together and manage to steal independence from the jaws of the imperialists one of you becomes 310 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:04,680 prime minister. So it's our president. So it's it's cooperative until it's not. And this is what 311 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,720 usually happens in the game is this the closer victory is the more illusively it becomes because 312 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,080 people stop cooperating. And that's that's the entire thesis behind Azadi. What does it take 313 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:24,040 for revolution to occur and do and how do revolutions succeed or in most cases fail. What got me to 314 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:30,200 make these two games. Well I am medium mid-agnostic in the past I've worked in film documentaries 315 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:36,680 writing and it's always what's the story I want to tell and what's the best capsule for that story. 316 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:42,680 We wanted to tell initially the story of elections and how they work and we wanted to be interactive 317 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,760 and we wanted people to talk about policy and not politicians. So you said OK let's make a physical 318 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,840 board game because if talking about policy online would help Twitter would have saved the world but 319 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:56,120 it hasn't. When we meet Chas and we understood that a lot of people want to also talk about 320 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,440 the fleeting nature of cooperation that elections that happens in election especially in the growing 321 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:09,240 state of fascism around the world. And that was what triggered us to first study what how revolutions 322 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:17,000 occur. We had the privilege of from to see revolutions from the outside. Revolutions friends were 323 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,080 participating in it was very painful for them but we had the privilege of being on the outside and 324 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:26,840 looking at them beat beat Hong Kong beat Egypt or all of the Arab Spring and said OK how do we 325 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:32,040 translate that. At the same time we come from a nation which had

its own history with revolution 326 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,840 and our primary market is a nation which had its own history of revolution. So India and the US 327 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:43,000 but two very different fabrics two different very different ways of looking at revolution. One was 328 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:48,680 nonviolent where the other was an armed revolution. So what why do these things happen occur. 329 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:55,560 What how does that change the entire ethos or fabric of a nation. Other questions we had 330 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,960 and to answer those questions ourselves we started building a game around it and hopefully we have 331 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:05,960 done a fairly convincing job of making you feel what making feel like that. So it feels like people 332 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:13,000 here are really invested in the community that that gets generated from gathering out of insolence 333 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:22,840 and also pretty eager to find ways to connect the community outside of gaming. And we stopped by 334 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:28,840 them the mind clash booth. Yeah mind clash games big fan of at least one of their publications. 335 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:35,720 They. Yeah mind clash games. They have a game called Septima which I know you're very fond of 336 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:42,520 that you have a copy of which is about Covens and Witchcraft but not in a kind of like 337 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,560 conventional or an expected way. The approach is a little bit more sort of interested in like 338 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:54,600 respecting that as a legitimate form of like community and belonging and identity formation 339 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,880 or something like this. I don't know. I've you're more familiar with the game than I am. 340 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,840 Yeah I haven't gotten really into it enough to be able to say like what the message is supposed to 341 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:11,720 be. But yeah it was really nice to talk with one of the people at that booth who gave us 342 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:20,680 the impression that that company is very eager to engage with actual practicing witches. Yeah. 343 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,880 Hello everyone my name is Dorca we're standing at the mind clash games booth at Paxon blogged 344 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:33,400 talking to these lovely gentlemen. We have a variety of games on display here. I'm going to 345 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:41,240 talk briefly about Septima right now. So Septima is our game of witchcraft. In Septima you play as 346 00:34:41,240 --> 00:34:46,600 the head of a coven of witches competing to become the new Septima is currently the head witch. 347 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,280 She's retiring in a year. It is a card playing game. You have seven cards in your hands and you 348 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,920 play five each round. You can wander around the forest gather ingredients proportions heal patients 349 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:06,600 but if you match before you take the action that action becomes more powerful. But now is the two 350 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:12,680 of us going into the forest gathering little berries so that becomes suspicious which triggers 351 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,040 the witch hunters who are circling closer and closer each round. They can actually capture your 352 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,480 witches and bring them to trial. There's a trial happening at the end of each round 353 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,880 and another action you can take is actually send your loyal citizens your acolytes into the trial 354 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:37,480 chambers so that they can save the witch. The meeples are drawn randomly from the back so if 355 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,920 there are more loyal citizens than angry citizens that which is saved and if you have majority you 356 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:49,800 actually get to keep that witch welcome him or her into your coven. Your coven has four slots for 357 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,680 the witches each of the witches have a special ability. You can switch them around and nominate 358 00:35:54,680 --> 00:36:02,280 your head witch each round and use their ability. So yeah that is basically Septima. I was just 359 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:10,360 really excited to see a company express such a strong desire to engage with the community that 360 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:18,280 they're referencing and that to me signals that they are excited about how their game represents 361 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:25,640 that subject. They feel like they've done it responsibly enough to be like hey please give 362 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,000 this a little more time. I would love for you to give this to someone who owns and operates 363 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:36,360 like a store for witches. You don't see that a lot in game. The other thing too that actually 364 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:42,040 segues really nicely to a thought I had is just yeah we were talking with a lot of people about 365 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:49,240 how their games communicate serious subject matter in serious ways or maybe fun ways and fun is just 366 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:55,640 something that we saw a lot of too right. People are having a good time and there are lots of games 367 00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:02,760 out there that depict subject matter in fun ways. They're fun subject matter like we saw one at 368 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:11,000 AEG. Oh yeah yeah and let's go to Japan. Let's go to Japan. Let's go to Japan maybe. No let's go to 369 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,320 Japan. I think that's what it's called. Let's go to Japan. And it's just a game about like designing 370 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,680 your trip. Yeah you just plan and take a trip to Japan. You can go visit Tokyo or Kyoto and while 371 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,400 you're there you can stop at a number of different sites and take the trains and you score points 372

00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:31,160 that are tracked by like little cute like lucky cats. Yeah and the research apparently that went 373 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:37,400 into that is very thorough. Hello my name is Josh Wood. I'm a board game designer and a board game 374 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:46,440 developer at AEG. I just designed Let's Go to Japan which just came out this year. It is a game that 375 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:54,840 I made starting in April of 2020. I was supposed to go to Japan. I had saved up for my trip for 376 00:37:54,840 --> 00:38:01,400 about three years and then the pandemic happened and I had to cancel my trip. And so I decided to 377 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:08,280 take all my notes and I made this sort of love letter to Japan based on all the notes the research 378 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:14,280 I did. I had just started learning Japanese and so I just kind of was going to learn Japanese 379 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,400 just for that trip but then I decided to keep studying it. I've been studying it for about four 380 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:26,920 years now and it's been a very rewarding thing for me to make this game. I got to talk with a lot 381 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:36,120 of Japanese people. All the artists in Let's Go to Japan they're all people who live in Japan 382 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:43,000 so they gave the game a lot of authenticity. It was really nice to get feedback in real time 383 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:47,320 when I was making that when I was making the game of people saying oh well you should really 384 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:53,480 include this place or you know it's more natural if you put this kind of location on and people 385 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,320 had their opinions on what people should do or what they shouldn't do and it was really great to 386 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:06,040 kind of get those extra touches that I think would that made the game extra special. In fact when 387 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,600 we were going to think of the Kickstarter edition and what it would include we thought of a lot of 388 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,760 little things that we could add to bring that Japanese experience and one of the things I was 389 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:22,280 most happy with is that we made the game come wrapped in for a Shiki cloth just you know what 390 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:28,120 Japanese people wrap their gifts in and I thought it was like I thought it was going to be impossible 391 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:36,440 for us to do to be able to have a game come wrapped in a cloth that we made how are we going to get 392 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,880 the factory to tie that knot and everything and it worked out and I think it gives the game an 393 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:49,480 extra touch and so I'm really happy and proud of this game all the people who did the hard work 394 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,240 on this game the artists the graphic designer everyone who helped really do the research with

395 00:39:55,240 --> 00:40:01,560 me and make sure that this game has all the authentic touches every card has a little 396 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:07,480 sentence or two about each of the places so you can learn about the about the different spots and 397 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,200 actually become knowledgeable about the things that you would like to do if you went or if you 398 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,360 are a person who went you can go hey I remember that place oh I don't know this place let me 399 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:24,280 learn about this place and so it was a very excellent project for me to do and I just was 400 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:30,120 really I'm really happy with how it turned out yeah so lots of fun lots of great people here 401 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:35,880 you know a little more breathing room here yeah it's just it's just a little less crowded 402 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:42,840 although the air is significantly colder than you know there's a lot there's interesting trends 403 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,960 it's one of the fun things to do at these conventions is like get this big bird's eye view 404 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,480 of like the state of of I was going to say state of play but that's so punny and funny but like the 405 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:58,600 state of the situation within the industry yeah lots of mushroom games yeah so we are we I guess 406 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:03,800 we must do a mushroom episode or someone we're working on I mean we have some ideas of some 407 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:10,200 some high-profile guests we might be able to hook but yeah I mean so that's interesting yeah and cool 408 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,880 you know those games all look kind of interesting in their own ways but there's other things too 409 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,480 like one of the things lots of nature yeah and now not all of that is the most exciting exciting 410 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:25,720 you know a lot of it is I think very painted on it's sort of like just a very familiar or perhaps 411 00:41:25,720 --> 00:41:33,880 novel puzzle of some kind and then to decide what the you know sort of like system is going to be 412 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:40,280 made legible with they use nature so it's like oh it's leaves and water and rocks but there's no 413 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:46,040 like it seems to me many of these games I don't want to generalize right but there are many games 414 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:52,040 that nowadays sort of like in a post wingspan world yeah use the nature theme to draw in players 415 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,560 because of the success of a game like wingspan but they don't really explore the theme very 416 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,760 richly or deeply and that's fine too I mean that's just not that's not what we're like I mean 417 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:08,200 that's not what we're like prioritizing and in this particular episode or ever in this podcast 418 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:14,600 but you know I've played some great games that I had a blast with that are just like very lightly 419 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:21,880 themed yeah absolutely yeah yeah so it's been a blast we got like kind of one more half day here 420 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:26,360 tomorrow so maybe some more things will get thrown into our little catch up but we thought we'd do it 421 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:34,360 now since we've we're energized and yeah and yeah it's been a pleasure Steve hey it's been an absolute 422 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,720 blast and it was fun checking out a new con and being in a new city with you we've never been to 423 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,800 Philly together yeah we saw Benjamin Franklin's grave we walked past it several times on our way 424 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,840 to the convention center it's right next door to our hotel we're staying in the historic district 425 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:51,560 anyone's familiar with the city we're in the ye olde city and we're like very close to 426 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,600 Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell and stuff like that which of course we haven't really been 427 00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:01,320 taking any we've been all about board games yeah but yeah some good food and yeah maybe some more 428 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:17,240 here in a few minutes and then we'll probably be back well until then we'll see you around the table 429 00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:02,740 you