Full Transcript for Stubby Talks Transformation | Episode 11: Mike Gillespie

that's, that's the one kind of, so at the start of a training, I would say, what do you want from these two days or this one day session? and at the end of it, they kind of go, Dave, I've taken some tools and techniques and I'm going to go and do this. It's actionable stuff. So what would, what for them at the start was like, Mike: Right. Dave Stubberfield: I don't really know why I'm here. They've kind of had their head turned and they've turned a corner and they can see progress now, which I love. Like you say, waiting tables is a great example and just turning that experience around. Mike: Yeah. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: So looking back at your career, do you think there's value in not knowing exactly where you're headed from the very beginning? Mike: Huh, well, so I have two minds about that. I know people who knew from high school what they wanted to do and they did it, or maybe they didn't and then they were kind of frustrated that they didn't do it. I've been a little bit more opportunistic, I suppose. I think probably ideal is somewhere in the middle, but I think we all just have our own journey, you know, and... Yeah, it's hard to prescribe one way or the other. I see value in both, I suppose. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, I tend to agree. mean, for me, my journey, I would have never have said I would have started as an apprentice. I think if I was way back at school, I would have ended up going to university and ended up not going to university because I didn't know what I wanted to do. And then you kind of land in this position where the general manager at the time said, Dave, do you want to go and learn Lean Six Sigma? And I said, what's that? And he went, I don't know. Mike: Right. Dave Stubberfield: And he kind of threw me in at a very, very deep end. And very quickly I found my calling. My passion was just to kind of improve things and help people along the way. that's when I first started all those years ago, I was incredibly shy, massive introvert. I still am an introvert to some degree, but it's amazing how your passion can kind of just bring you out of your shell sometimes. And that's exactly what's happened to me. Mike: Yeah. 100 % yeah and to me that that goes hand in hand with you know being an introvert as well as it doesn't mean you don't like to talk or you don't like people necessarily it just means that it has to be on something that's of interest you know and then you can really have the those quality smaller quantity conversations on a deeper dive on a topic of interest yeah that makes sense yeah Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. So let's dive on to a very interesting topic, your book, which is out. It's not out in UK, which is a shame right now because I was going to surprise you, but you've got a copy there that you can hold up, right? Mike: Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited. so here's the American English version. we have, actually I have the UK version too. Here we go. They might have sent it to me before you, but it looks the same.

It's just paperback and a little bit different. So yeah, yeah. All right, so this is, it's a really cool collaboration. I'm excited about this. So, Dave Stubberfield: wow. Brilliant. So talk to me about the book. What is it all about? Mike: What I'm personally, I'll start with what I'm personally excited about, then I'll tell you about the collaboration. So what I'm personally excited about is this is a simple way that I can try to help make people's lives better. And I'll give you a very simple example. So if you journal, Dave, you and I have probably talked about this already, but for the listeners, I don't know how many people journal. I'm gonna guess most people do some sort of journaling, maybe not every day, but some days. And I would wager that our listeners here, if you're gonna sit down and start journaling, I'm gonna wager you would use the first person language, first person pronouns, first person way of thinking. So I'm trying to decide, I have this podcast coming up with Dave, what am I gonna talk about on this podcast? It's very like I, me, in my own head, right? Now, if I flip that and say, Mike is getting ready for this podcast, how should Mike prepare for this podcast? Dave Stubberfield: you Okay. Mike: and as I talk about it this way and I get out of my own head, remember a very good friend of mine, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever heard was to just have fun at your own party. So here, great, just have fun on my own podcast because that's what people want to hear. They want to hear people having a good time, right? And so just that flip from going from first person to third person actually activated that new way of thinking, that new perspective for me right now, right here in the moment. And it's that simple and it's that powerful, this flip from first person to third person is called Iliism. And that or this Iliist diary method of self-reflection. And that's one of the tools that we talk about in the book. Okay, so that's a simple way how I can help people get out of their own heads. It's something that I use to get out of my own head when I'm stuck in this self-immersed perspective, everything is happening to me or you know, what, what. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Mike: Woe is me or how awesome am I or you know all these egocentric ways of thinking it just gets us out of it right. So the book I'm really excited about because it gives some simple tools for people to give people more clarity to see things better and make better decisions. But that's not the most interesting thing about it to me what's the most interesting thing about it to me is the partnership so I'm co author on this book with Captain David Marquet he's the author Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Mike: of the best selling ship. or best-selling ship, best-selling book, Turn the Ship Around. It's a fantastic book. It's a great arc of a story. I can't recommend it highly enough, and it's a great leadership book. And so he took the worst performing sub in the fleet to the best performing sub in the fleet, US Navy, and wrote a book about it. And it's a fantastic book. It's a great business book. It's allowed it all over the place. And then one day, I got Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: an email from him. He wanted to connect because he is a local. We both live like 20 minutes away from each other. We'd never met before. The Wall Street Journal published an article on my research, going back to some of the early stuff I'd worked on at a consulting firm, which I could talk as much as people are interested in about. Great founders of the firm, great gig. But anyhow, the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece on the research that came from that. That article landed on David's doorstep. He reached out to me. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. you Mike: We started working together. I could tell some interesting stories about that. But anyhow, it was a great collaboration. His whole thing was how to get information, how to get authority to information. So you have, you have sailors on the ship on the sub that are supposed to be doing their jobs. But if they have to wait on David to be issuing all the orders, then he's the bottle. Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: And so this is something that he learned early on. And I don't want to tell his story. He does a much better job. But his mission was to break down these hierarchies, break down the control, give control to the rank and file employees, give control to the sailors so they can make the decisions that they need to make in real time. Trust your employees. Crazy thought, right? And so he said, OK, if we're going to give control. to the employees and stop trying to hoard control as leaders, this old command and control model that doesn't work. If we want to give control to the employees to make their own decisions, how do we help them make better decisions? And that's where this book came out. That's where the idea for this book came. As we were trying to decide how can we help you make better decisions and just casually colloquially, Dave, we can talk about this. what's one of the biggest things that help, that make people make bad decisions? Well, their own ego. Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: You know, they just get in their own way. You know, the old adage, our worst enemy is ourself. Well, sometimes that's true. And so how can we help people get out of their own way? And so there's this idea of psychological distancing. If we're too wrapped up in the moment, if we're too self-absorbed, if we're too egotistical, especially when we don't know it, right? How do we get out of our own heads so we can see things more clearly? And so that's where he and I wrote this book that really focuses on psychological distancing. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Mike: And so that's why the title is on, the title is Distancing. So it's just a bunch of different tools and methods we can use to get out of our own. Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. I think that's amazing. So I journal a fair bit. I haven't done it a

while. I must admit that's probably the kids keeping me busy more than anything. but I, I, I do talk in the first person. so I am going to give that third person, sort of writing a go and see what the difference is because yeah, that sounds amazing. David's I've seen a video, a couple of videos of David's and they are amazing. and he does an unbelievable job and they are, they are phenomenal. Mike: Yeah. that yeah Right. He does such a great job. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: They are great videos to watch. recommend people watching them, also reading a book as well. Phenomenal. So I guess kind of follow up to that Mike is that kind of self-awareness kind of the example they're talking first person versus third. important is self-awareness been in your own development? Not just professionally, but personally as well. Mike: It's huge. You know, and I'll tell you, Dave, I've had some real successes in my life and some real failures, as a lot of us have, right? One of my, probably my biggest failure is I got divorced a few years ago, or, you know, separated, took a little more time for that. But at the time, you know, I actually literally remember I was walking through the woods thinking about this. I'm like, you know what? I'm a good husband. I take good care of my now ex-wife, know, I listen, you know, I show how much I care in all these different ways. And at the time I was reading this book by Dale Carnegie that people are probably familiar with, How to Win Friends and Influence People. I'd put off reading it because I thought the title sounded cheesy, but it's actually a fantastic book. great. And that book helped me realize that even the worst people will have the, can have this Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Mike: dialogue at this inner monologue about how they're really amazing and doing these horrible things for all these good reasons. And I thought, well, wait a minute. If cop killers and sociopaths can have a narrative of how they are really amazing people, and they're obviously horrible people, what if everybody else, what if myself, what if I have the same kind of dysfunction? Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mike: so I got thinking, well, so what's some behavioral evidence of how good of a husband I am? What's some behavioral evidence of what a good partner I am. And I got kind of rewinding over the years and I found some examples going back five, 10, 15 years ago, but, nothing in recent memory. And I'm like, my goodness, I have this self narrative of what a wonderful person I am. But if I objectively look at my own behavior, the way I would look at somebody else's behavior, I would be able to point out all these shortcomings. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Mike: And I would be able to point out how I'm not living up to this own ideal version of myself. And so it was a huge wake-up call. it was too late for that marriage, but it was not too late to start taking some of these principles and building a better life for myself and for my kids. And so the original question was, do I use some of these things and do I find them useful? And it's a resounding yes because... Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: I, like most people, think, can get stuck in my own head, and I need a good jolt to get out of it sometimes. And you don't actually have to take a three-day retreat out into the wilderness. There's some simple mental techniques that we can use, these principles of psychological distancing that exist in the research, that can help us get out of our own head and see things more clearly. I made up a fun kind of mock cover of the book. that I think would have sold a lot better. And the title for the mock cover of the book is, How to Pull Your Head Out of Your Own Ass. It's maybe a little crass for Penguin, I'm not sure, although they've published some others that are equally crass. to me, that's what we all need sometimes. And I could keep going, but I think it's time for me to pause as I hear myself talking. Dave Stubberfield: Hahaha Hahaha! Yeah. Yeah. No, no, I mean, it's good. And thank you for sharing, Mike. I appreciate that. I guess for me, it's kind of being aware that self-awareness is huge. I did a training event not too long ago, and let's just say there was a disruptive person in the room. I felt like I did a disservice to everyone else in the room because I was just trying to get out of there as soon as I possibly could. And Mike: Mm-hmm. Dave Stubberfield: I didn't, but I'm so self-critical that I'm thinking that's exactly how I did it. I delivered everything that I meant to, to the standard, the quality that I have, but I felt to myself, I felt disengaged. And looking back on it, I think I probably wasn't. think it was just an in the moment reaction that I've kind of held onto, you know? And it's interesting how that self-awareness, that self-reflection sometimes can be good or bad, can't it? Mike: Yeah. Yeah, and it really can, and that's a great piece. I I use these tools more often, honestly, so that I can see myself through a bit more harsh reality that might be needed. But I use these with students also, and I get a lot of reports back of how it helps them see themselves more compassionately, like with more compassion, more empathy, and also accountability. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Mike: And so there's not the emotions all wrapped up in protecting or defending or the version of their self. It's just, okay, there's this person going through this experience. wow, that's real. That's something we can have compassion for. But also they just need to do these next steps in front of them. So the compassion can go hand in hand with accountability. It's just seeing the situation with a more level perspective. And so, yeah. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, they're really interesting, really interesting. Mike, when people talk about transformation, how much do you think of it really starts with perspective rather than the actual process of transforming something? Mike: Well, one of the things that I think is most

fundamental to transformation is being able to see things from a different perspective. The book is primarily about how we do this within ourselves, but one of the extensions that we could take this, we had to cut some content. It can also apply at the organizational level and dealing with different people. so how do you help other people see the situation more clearly? I've lost track of your initial question here though. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, no, that's fine. So it's kind of the perspective rather than the process of transforming. How important is that perspective? Mike: yeah, yeah. mean, so people can go through the motions if you lay out a transformation plan for them, but if they don't feel it really any different, they're still going to be struggling with the same things. so, yes, you can get people to change their behavior, and that can change their attitudes. That's something David and I talk about a lot. But for a transformational process, whether it's at the organizational level or a personal level, being able to see the situation more clearly is tremendously. helpful. One of the things that really helped open my eyes to how people can get in their own way and make things harder is with some fairly high level negotiations and mergers that I've been able to be a part of or change processes. And when people feel threatened, they really dig in. And if they feel like somebody doesn't understand them, they really dig in. And so one of the most effective things we can do is just understand the situation from somebody else's perspective. Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: And I've seen ombuds people do this really well, navigating conflict and major restructuring, for example. One of the most powerful things is just to get people to relax, see each other as human beings, understand where each other is coming from. And that's a change in perspective. It's a fundamental change in perspective. I can feel my shoulders relax when this happens. You can see the energy in the room. can see people just relax and sit back and their face looks more relaxed a little bit. And then now you can actually work together and solve the bigger problems that you have. But otherwise, if you can't help people change their perspective and see things from a bigger picture or a different perspective, they're just gonna stay rooted where they're at. And it's like... Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Mike: It's like trying to force a dog into a car or something. You might get it in there, it's, don't know. are gonna do whatever they need to do, then they're gonna be pissed about it, and it's gonna come out sideways. And so getting people to really understand things better and understand other people's perspective, I think is really fun. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you've done a lot of work in that space, helping organisations go through major restructures and sort of a strategic change. What are the patterns that you see again and again when change is introduced? Mike: Well, so I don't know. To me, every time this comes up, my initial thinking is people don't like change. And of course, that's a little bit cynical because some people do actually like change. But most of the time, people don't, especially if they're not the one driving the change of the organization. If somebody else is driving it, they're going to be initially resistant. so the first phase is either Providing a compelling reason to change or overcoming that initial resistance. And that's basically kind of, or change 101, you people have to have a felt need to change. And then they also have to learn how to overcome that initial resistance and then adapt and then, you know, solidify into the new process, whatever the change is. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Mike: But yeah, the first step is really getting people to see something from a different perspective. Because they've probably just been used to doing it the way they've been doing it. So why would they need to change unless they see a need for the change? Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, I see it. Yeah, yeah, so true. What do you think leaders kind of most often misunderstand about the psychology of change? Mike: Hmm. good question. I haven't really thought about it that way. I mean that the easy default to go back on is that the traditional leader just sees change as something that they need to orchestrate and get people to do. And so you just tell people they need to change and then they accept that they're going to change. You know they have new goals, new objectives, and we all go on our way. But it really to just hand down change, top down like that. It doesn't work very well long term. It's not very effective. You might get the short term results, but you're not gonna get, the heart's not gonna be in it. And so the best leaders that I've seen have slowed down. It takes a little longer in the beginning. You actually have to understand your employees or who you're asking to change. You have to understand why they like things the way that they are, what their fears are about the change, what can you do to help them. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Mike: overcome those fears, it just slowing down and meeting people where they are and showing them the roadmap for the change and the need for the change. To me, that's a lot more effective than just handing down, okay, this is what we're going to be doing now. Dave Stubberfield: I totally agree. And I think for me that the time spent pre-change is just as important as the change itself. You have to kind of make sure Mike: Mm-hmm. Yes. Dave Stubberfield: the organization, the culture, everything is ready and aligned for that change. If you try and implement that change and you haven't looked at these things, you're going to fail miserably. Absolutely. And I think that for me is so fundamental to actually making it success, isn't it? Mike: Yeah. It really is. when I'm in a position of a leader role to actually implement change, my goodness, any time I have tried to

just implement it without understanding where everybody's coming from ahead of time, I always do it wrong. And so for me as a leader, I have to stop, slow down, hear where everybody's coming from. What is it like from their perspective first? And I actually have to understand that. Like really at a deep level, intellectually in my heart, you know, it can't just be a surface level, this is gonna go here and this is gonna go here. I have to really understand where the person's coming from. And then that will oftentimes inform the nature of the change. And then we can do something that's authentic and moving forward. And it's a much better product. It's a much better solution. It's a much better team that's there at the end of it because I slowed down and listened. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah, interesting. Really, really interesting. I'm going to touch on that a little bit further if that's all right, Mike. Last time we spoke, you told me about the merger of the three separate universities in Florida, that change that you was involved in. What was that experience like? Obviously, you were the president at the time of the faculty and you were the one in the middle of that change. What did that look like and feel like for you? Mike: you Right. Yeah, so, okay, so I was president of the Faculty Senate for the smallest campus of the three that were going into this merger. And so I kind of had, I was one of the core people at the table, but probably the one with the least formal authority or power, which really made it all the more important that I just had to do a good job listening and understanding where everybody else was coming from, because I was not going to force anything. My main ability was to listen to where other people were coming from. It felt strange because this was a change that was forced upon us by the state. And that meant that it didn't actually make sense all the way through. And so there were some parts of the merger process that it didn't make sense that the language and the accrediting body documentation were at odds with the language from the legislature. Dave Stubberfield: . So Mike: And we couldn't always reconcile that. What really made sense for the university was not always the same thing that made sense for the individual students or faculty members. And so it was a challenge. It was a challenging process. For me, even before I wrote the book, I was pretty good at this professionally. I was not as good as it personally, but professionally I was pretty good at it. I really just had to separate myself from the process and say, okay, because I had my own particular issues, needs, goals as a faculty member, but that was not my job. My job was to represent the faculty in general. And so sometimes I actually had to advocate for things that were not necessarily in my best interest because I understood it was in the interest of the university as a whole. But I'll tell you, some of those things still don't make sense. Some of the

things that didn't make sense then still don't make sense now. And now it's been about seven years and the state's doing it again. They're trying to give the campus that I'm at to a different university and so it'll be a whole new merger process. So I don't know what that one's gonna look like. It appears to be failing at the state level, but it still might go through. So we have to see what happens next with this one and whether there's gonna be a round two on all of this. Dave Stubberfield: Wow, watch this space then. Mike: Right. I know it's, it's crazy. Dave Stubberfield: It is. Just going back to kind of people and their motivation. You said people don't generally want to change unless they really feel the motivation to actually do it. So what in your eyes creates that motivation? Mike: So this is kind of a simple answer because it's just what I do. So part of what I do for org change, if I were to come into an organization as a consultant, I have a host of different tools that I could use. I would conduct a series of focus groups and surveys and get data from the people at the organization about what's going on. then what you have to do is you have to take that data and consider it alongside what does the, where does the organization need to go? And so oftentimes there's a change, environmental changes that are bigger than the organization, like an in the shift in industry, a shift in technology, shift in grant funding. And so then the organization has to adopt. And so that means the organization has to adopt, but it doesn't necessarily mean that everybody in the organization understands that they have to adapt. They don't necessarily understand the need for the changes. And so then Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mike: what has to happen is I'll sit down with leadership, for example, and show, okay, so here's the data that are coming back from the employees in this department or that department. Here's what's going well for them. Here's what's not going well. Now I'm hearing from you how we need to change the overall strategy of the organization to meet these new changing objectives. But here's where the employees currently are. So we have to figure out how we're gonna bridge this gap. And then figure out where... What strengths can you leverage? What are some weaknesses that are concerns? And so it is not uncommon to have an organization where everybody, the employees are all, you know, they feel empowered, they get along pretty well. There's some cohesion there, but they're not ready to pivot and adapt to the changing market conditions. And so then it becomes a case of having to Dave Stubberfield: . Mike: relay those changing conditions to the employees, help them understand how they need to change better. And once people can understand all the way through how the organization as a whole needs to change and respond, then people are more willing to figure out how to start doing things differently and work together to solve these bigger picture goals. Now these are abstract examples. I'd have to go back and get more detailed. Dave Stubberfield: Mm. Mike: if we wanted to do like a detailed case write-up. But the general theory is that we have to help everybody understand the need for the change. And for that, I use focus groups, survey data, and whatever is changing at the bigger picture that usually the CEO is acutely aware of and why that change needs to happen. Dave Stubberfield: Interesting. Do you think there's a difference between compliance and commitment from people when it comes to change? Mike: 100 % yeah, I mean that's obviously that's a loaded question, right? So you believe there's a difference in between compliance and what was it? Commitment. Yeah, right. And so, you know, we can tell people top down to comply and you know, they will for a short time. But so this is one of the things that I really liked in working with David. And so he has this. So this the book Turn the Ship Around, he has all these quotes and stuff that he sends out about this. Dave Stubberfield: I do, I do. commitment. Mike: But basically, if you're just relying on people's labor and not their thinking, you can just tell them what to do. And if they don't do it, you can fire them. You can bring somebody else in. It's kind of like treating humans like animals. Doesn't sound very fulfilling to me. It's not a place that I would want to work. if all you need is compliance and all you need is people to behave a certain way, yeah, you can do that. But if you want people to actually be able to think on their own and make decisions... that are right in front of them that are in the best interest of the organization and not just, you know, self-serving for that person maybe. You have to be able to get people along with you, you know, toward, and so just compliance is not gonna cut it. If you want people's hearts and minds, and that's the human value, that's what, and so we're talking about AI and we have, you know, robots that can do this and that. You know, what is left for us to do is the human side of things. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Mike: And the human side of things is eroded through compliance. What we want is we want to invite that human side. We want to invite people's thinking, creativity, critical thinking, their hearts and minds along with the process. And we don't get that through compliance. We only get that through collaborating and having everybody committed to some greater goal. Dave Stubberfield: Hmm. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think for me, it's that kind of, it's the meaning, the purpose, the values maybe, all of these things that play into kind of helping people embrace that change rather than just tolerate it. I think if people's values line up with the organizations, then Mike: Right. Dave Stubberfield: that's going to help them along their journey. Or if they see the purpose or the mission of what we're trying to achieve for the greater good potential, the end to end or the wider

piece. That's a massive part as well, isn't it? Mike: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And that actually that connects back to the book, also kind of that bigger picture perspective. You know, when we when we take a bigger picture view of things, we're seeing it more in terms of the higher purpose, the bigger picture of why we're doing something. The opposite of that is seeing things kind of at the more granular lower level and kind of focused and worried about the details or logistics of something. And so both are useful, right? Sometimes we need to be in that more microscopic detailed focus of, know, hammering out the logistical plan for making this conference happen. But sometimes we need to take a step back and see the bigger picture purpose for why we're doing something because that might make some major changes to those more lower level, you know, details that we're trying to hash out. And so when we're trying to make a big decision or we're trying to engage people in a new direction or help people see a better, with a better perspective, We want that bigger picture thinking. We want that bigger picture perspective that's focused on the why and on the purpose for why we're doing something. So I'm going to talk for just a little bit on this. higher level, what we're talking about is this idea of it's called construal level theory. So it's at what level are we construing an action? So am I on this podcast because I'm trying to fill up my calendar for today and I had an opening. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah, yeah. Mike: and this is a good way to do this, and then can make a post on LinkedIn with a video. That's pretty logistical detailed. Or am I on this podcast because I have a mission to try to make the world of work a better place or to try to help people be better humans, and I can get the word out for that. And so this higher level purpose or abstraction, it's more stable. There's more ways to get to it. And so it's a better orientation. provides a better guiding star than the lower level logistics. So the book is on psychological distancing. So we have psychological distancing, we have construal level theory. How abstractly do we want to construe something? When we increase our psychological distance, so when I use third person instead of first person, I'm also gonna be thinking more abstractly. That helps me get out of the weeds. It helps me see the bigger picture. And so, Just to kind of complete the full arc on this, have construal level theory, higher or lower. For purpose, we want to see things more abstractly. And then we have psychological distancing, and there's three ways we can do this. One is self-distancing. That's this third person versus first person, for example. The other is spatial distancing, so I can mentally teleport myself somewhere else. And then the third is temporal distancing, so I can mentally fast forward or rewind in time to see things from a different time perspective. We as humans have these innate capabilities, unlike animals, and when we use these capabilities, it helps us see the bigger picture in things. Dave Stubberfield: Amazing. Amazing. I would love to dive into that in a bit more detail, but I think we're running out of time. But no, that's maybe that's an episode two there, Mike. That's fascinating. Mike: Yeah, maybe, you know, that that's the landscape. That's the arc of the book. And so if people find that fascinating, there's more info and stories and tools in there. But it's nice to kind of bring it around. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Brilliant, amazing. Brilliant, no, that's brilliant, Mike. Now, obviously, you're in Florida, you describe yourself as a Florida person, even though you were born in Illinois, right? And spent New Year's in the Midwest. What does Florida represent for you? Mike: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Right. To me, it's really the sun and the water and the beaches. So of course, life is more than that. I work pretty hard as a professor and as a father and stuff like that. So I loved being in the Midwest for a bit, the people, a great education. But in terms of going about my day-to-day life, I like a lot of sun, I like a lot of water, I like knowing that the beach is just right over there. And so I go sailing sometimes, you see the sailboats behind me. And so I like that as the backdrop for my life and it's become home for me. Maybe it's because I've spent so many years of my life here, but yeah, I like it. Dave Stubberfield: Bring it Amazing. Well, you've got me jealous. mean, the weather's changing here in the UK, which is nice, but I'm sure it's not as warm as Florida. we'll get there one day. We'll get there one day. Mike: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, come down and visit sometime. That'd be great. Dave Stubberfield: I will. I'll be bringing my golf clubs as well. Now you just mentioned their family. You mentioned divorce as well earlier, but you kind of as a father, how was family life shaped the way you think about work and change? Mike: Great, yeah, perfect. It's interesting, you know, it's helped me see people as more human. cause when some responsible for these little humans, you know, I re you know, everybody is just a grown up little human in a way, you know, and so it's, it's it helps me see the humanity in everybody. but the, really powerful thing for me is all the principles we've been talking about on this podcast. I, I use them in my parenting too, and I can tell when they're working and when they're not. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mike: You know, so there's tools in the book. And when I am so frustrated or if I think something is so important that I can't even be bothered to stop and use one of my own tools, that's when I'm really about to do something wrong. And so these simple things like noticing myself stomping up the stairs with frustration. Okay, that's an objectively observable thing. And that tells me I need to stop. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Mike: Don't keep walking up the stairs and do whatever I had in my mind. It's not gonna make anything better. So if I can become an observer, like an impartial observer and see my own behavior and notice these cues for, okay, it's time to pause. It's time to pause and breathe. It's time to pause and go for a walk. It's time to pause and use one of your tools. It's been a tremendous source of, it's made my own life a lot. Dave Stubberfield: Yep. Hmm. Amazing, Okay, last question before I go into some quick fire questions, Mike. And this one's kind of the last bit of advice. So what's one thing you've learned about transformation that you wish more organizations understood sooner? Mike: Alright. Just take the time to understand your people. That's it. It sounds simple, it is simple, everybody knows it, but it's so easy to just short circuit. And it just makes things take longer, more expensive, more difficult, more painful, if you know. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think the caveat with that for me is kind of, it's simple, but it can just take time and that's time well spent, right? Mike: That's right. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. It'll be a better product as a result. know, nobody is brilliant enough to be able to conceive something from start to finish and just say, everybody do this now. Like, I've met a lot of brilliant people, but even they do well when they slow down and listen to others. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: There you go. Yeah. Brilliant. Okay, Mike, some quick fire questions for you. So one habit that you won't compromise on. Mike: Workout, working out. I've stopped for a little bit and that was a disaster. I got to keep my own physical and mental well-being first. Dave Stubberfield: Okay. Brilliant, yeah. One mistake that's taught you the most. Mike: Ooh, thinking I know something. Dave Stubberfield: okay, yeah. And one thing that leaders don't talk about enough. Mike: One thing that leaders don't talk about. why we're doing what we're doing. It's something that, you know, it can be in the vision statement, it can be in the mission statement. You can have said it twice, three times already, but people just need to keep hearing it and keep feeling it and it can keep changing. Dave Stubberfield: Brilliant. Mike, I've absolutely loved having you as a guest on the podcast. I wish you all the success with the book. It's already been converted into how many languages? Mike: it was five or seven. Yeah. Dave Stubberfield: amazing, amazing. I wish you all the best with that. I'll certainly be getting a copy when it's out here in the UK. But Mike, thank you so much for your time and thank you very much for being a guest. Mike: Next. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. This was fun.