Joanna Robinson and Richard Lawson discover more about Delos in "Riddle of the Spinx," the fourth episode of the second season of Westworld. William and Bernard come across old acquaintances, The Man In Black returns to Las Mudas. This week's interview is Jonathan Tucker who discusses how portraying Major Craddock has him thinking like a bird. 
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00:00:00bring yourself back online
00:00:07Thomas the Tank Engine blue
00:00:12some people choose to see the other missing school
00:00:21I choose to see the beauty welcome to still watching Westworld an unofficial podcast about the HBO series Westworld I'm very fair senior writer Joanna Robinson
00:00:32each week will break down the latest theories baffling questions and hidden Illusions as well as occasionally chat with someone who's worked on the show itself this week we will be discussing and only spoiling up to season 2 episode 1 of lost Madison Tennessee sorry guys were like we're doing season 2 episode 4 of Westworld riddle of the Sphinx dirt by Lisa Joy written by Gina at water that we will be talking about that lost episode at some point she only going to talk about the tail least favorite
00:01:11how much does a Telecaster now sorry if that's not what you signed up for but I wanted to get gas before we dive into the to the meat of the episode which involves already sort of gust over I wanted to say what I was surprised by okay so we first brought up the actor Jonathan Tucker Richard I think you and I both were surprised you find in each other like someone who likes and so much I've been secretly standing all these years I thought I was super special in love like we are strong and we even got like sort of
00:01:52told by one of our listeners like you know that maybe our affection doesn't go back far enough so Gabby Grace wrote in and she said okay he's jump on the tiger head train and reminded when he was in Virgin Suicides and I sincerely hope neither of you have James Marsden face blindness because what would be the point even the first guess she said I said for a while away also killer shout out to the seminal 90 some Disturbing Behavior from Richard and then she said some really nice things about the podcast gabbi also someone on Twitter pointed out that Jonathan Tucker was in the film sleepers as a think like a young Billy crudup is who's playing without in the past like that so spicy with Sandra Bullock and Denis Leary correct me if I'm wrong
00:02:44this guy's been around for awhile this is his showcase episode of the season so you know it was going to be in the rest of the season
00:02:55tried that and we're just going to run down the episode where in a / storylines this week just to for a little bit of clarity and and control yeah that means maybe we'll reference each other but that's how we're going to like organize things this week where to get into some theories but we're to kick off with the young William Jim duello storyline and this is why I made that done last joke at the beginning of the episode because anyone to watch the last knows this has to be has to have to be a direct reference to be like famous cold open of season 2 episode 1 of lost where you spent the whole first season like on this beach on this tropical island and then all of a sudden we've got a guy on an exercise bike we've never met before some fun retro music playing on the record player
00:03:55let me find out that like the person who is in the mysterious hatch sorry spoilers for this week yet I mean that's nice bike the record player of the mundane everyday activities of like making your coffee versus like pouring yourself cereal which I think something doesn't was doing is direct obviously obviously reference to that and it is really fun what did you think of like how how much is your lost spidey sense tingling when this does open Ivan III had just dis dis tingle of nostalgia because like season 2 was the first season of the show that I watch live cuz I watch the others on DVD cuz I'm you know who it was that long ago it wasn't available online and I could have did it in a sexy Versace I'd marathon and then then the season 2 premiere like the next day or something so that particular cold open is like my first live experience watching Lost
00:04:55I would I felt like I was 22 again
00:04:59I think it's it's such an iconic moment for that series and I promise we'll talk about the actual show Westworld in a second but because it really represents I mean whatever you may think of what happened the rest of lost it really represents a way in which they're like the question the Cliffhanger question of season one was like what's in the hatch what's in the box was in the hatch and they're like oh it's a guy that exercise bike and I really feel like that set the tone for where we are going from there but instead of a hatch we've got I mean it's a similar to an underground facility and we've got Jim's Loz I like all of the looping imagery in this year he's in like this round thing that affects Pino effectively looks like a record you've got the record player and that tracking shot is amazing that just be on 360 Yeah it's red and it's and it's and it's shot at kind of a weird lately glow Angela because they don't want us to see who it is so it just has his kind of interesting fact
00:05:59and we should mention Lisa Toys R Us is that said this is her directorial debut so we'll have some beautiful flashy open from Lisa Joy how soon did you think this is a robot version of gems are they kind of give up the ghost pretty quick because his hand Twitches when he's boring the cream it was coffee and but I guess I get this episodes interesting this whole this whole scene with the or series of scenes with Jim and William because it answers a pretty big question about this season a lot sooner than I thought it would be answered but it still doesn't in this like really kind of beguiling interesting way so I didn't really mind that they were like oh yeah I'd like this is kind of about of mortality
00:06:45yeah PS4 uploading human consciousness into robot bodies but and the way in which it ties to the president in this episode that's another like in a very lost technique of like a flashback a flashback flashback and then Lake comes together with your with your modern day planned and West obviously it said that as well throughout but it is it's just so stylish Lee done and we know we already raved about the actor Peter Mullan and Millie casting choices there but like to have Peter Mullan in the jimmi Simpson doing his like weird aging at Harris impression I think it all works like really well the repetition of it with the variation and giving you a little bit more info each time and stuff like that I think is is really fun so yeah yeah I love this stuff the Music Choice an expensive one I imagine is the Rolling Stones play with fire I think of what that song is called which becomes
00:07:45very on the nose later but it's just like a nice fun song on its own and it was so then when it becomes like a little too on-the-nose I don't mind that much but Dallas from the beginning here is pitching himself as sort of a double figure it starts right at the beginning he has one of his little lines that he repeats on the script is you know if you enter cheats w a home and offering and we've already talked about like the various Messiahs we have running around the park people who fancy themselves a Jesus or the Messiah so here we have like this devil figure lurking underground which is Cinderella's or more accurately like the concept of what they're growing I think it is actually gym but they're creating Devils on his attention or hot. Yeah
00:08:38yeah so mmm the part where they don't do it the first generation here but the part word where William shows him the script of what he saying reminded me of season 1 when they was sort of shown a digital version of like all the various things that she was saying in her sort of like freaked out realization around that but so here's a question about this conceit so this is different than creating a Consciousness through the host this is taking an actual person and somehow digitizing their accents are there their they're being and putting it into one of these you know in Mortal bodies Samuel so my confusion then is why would they have a program set of
00:09:30like you know talk like with liens a dialogue you know because it wouldn't just be and we're sort of fluid like responsive person rather than someone who has been fed a script
00:09:41yeah yeah that's a really good question I don't know that I know the answer to that other than like maybe this is beta and in beta they have to sort of melds programming row Consciousness as they try to figure out how it because we find out over the repetition of the scene is that you're basically the host body reject the implanted Consciousness and that they know they spent decades trying to get this thing to work and and so it's like just testing this Fidelity of if the Consciousness fully acclimated to the hose body then you would get just Jim delose like talking I don't I don't know that's a good question to the gym dillos storyline is in some ways wrapped up in this episode I can't imagine that the season is done exploring this particular aim
00:10:41what's a corporation right like like this Consciousness thing is still there's there's more to come with that right yeah yeah and I would say that
00:10:54I think in this episode this episode opens up a lot of possibilities for us to reevaluate what we're looking at and we'll get to that a little bit when we get to the Bernard stuff I think but yeah so we've got like a middle interaction where where the jimmi Simpson character looks a little bit older and in addition to like fun fun fun times with Jim Dello spot because I think around 2 he does like his great dancer team that also brings to mind another movie about isolated row body stuff with his ex machina oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I got a lot of ex machina in this episode 2 which is a good thing but yeah so it's Roxy Music and the Tremor is less in his hand so we're supposed to see like a little bit of of progress but this is where William also gives us some expositional backs
00:11:54story on what's going on in with adela's family right so like Jim. This is why I said we don't care we never matter it's been 7 years
00:12:06who cares I was thinking about this because we never met Jim Dallas's wife and that's that's fine but it still bothers me that we've never met dolores's mom like her dad is so important and in season one her mom is there like in that Massacre that happened with the Homestead Road dolores's Loop her mom is there and we never saw her so it's like actually we'll see Dolores his mom right like they just haven't figured out what actress they want to that recast in I was with some a big maybe they are just have decided she's not important so I was like when I realized that we never met you know Juliet Logan's mom I was like I guess she's like I said I don't care that much about moms is like uber mom so that's why I text so jealous wife is dead and then they talk about Williams daughter Emily and this is obviously going to be important later but we met Emily briefly in that party scene
00:13:06in an earlier episode when she was like 5 or 6 but William says she's whip smart and capable you asked me off air
00:13:14when I realized who the actor ayakashi hot papers who is billed as Grace but is not playing again for name Grace was lame is episode is when will you said it she's whip smart and capable if we met recently
00:13:30what's smart and capable and I was like oh and we can talk about her like that had such shades of lost to it and such thing as a talese specific like the way that lost her introduce a new character was like okay here's this new person was instantly care about them but don't worry don't worry you'll find out they have some connection to this broader world you know just just wait for it and I don't mean that is a as an insult suit at all like I I love that kind of like little new no introduction I guess that it's fun
00:14:05I think sometimes they can try to do that with a character I'm like guess what I don't care they did it so well with his character we talk about this in her episode where she was introduced like that after the scenario all of that you're just immediately on her side and rooting for her and like her so you know it she proves to be a villain will will feel sad about it so they terminate that that second jebeles model that we saw but it's definitely not the second bottle it's like the I don't know 47th or whatever but they turn right that one with fire which just seems a bit extreme to like bird that beautiful set to a crisp every single time like can't you just like the furniture isn't part of the IP you need to protect Simpsonville drastic guys are laughed but our last well actually not even
00:15:05the last one we should mention that goldfish in the bowl because I was so that's a nice little like metaphor for him and stuff like that gym for some perfectly good job Jim Williams hear this. But this time it's Ed Harris and I just want to mention that I got a tweet from a listener recently received was like my dad has seen every episode it was like right around episode 2 or 3i think when it is like my dad has seen every episode and I still just had to explain to him that like Ed Harris character Old William is the jimmi Simpson character young-williams woman's Dad I'm just saying like there are I'm sure plenty of people watching Westworld to like for whom that is still not like as evident as you would hope it would be hopefully this moment we're like you seen Jimmy says the command you see Jimmy says they come in and then you see Ed Harris comes in and he's like oh and then obviously there's a lot of cognitive dissonance for the bellows
00:16:05that's because he's like who the hell are you you look like at Harrison what's going on fellas spots and you kind of wonder what obviously they're pursuing this because they want to see if they can do it and if they can do it then they have you know the Golden Goose I mean that so you know everyone with money is going to want to do that but like you kind of wonder what Williams emotional connection to Jim is you know because it seems to kind of curdle into assertive to stain you know I mean as much as I can. You're better off dead like no one to like to when you're alive but you you wonder why he was bothering with in the first place I've ever been with anyone you know
00:16:51there's part of me that feels like the ultimate betrayal of like I'm going to take your company to worry father-in-law but like that he could have just terminated him after time 3 in like it doesn't but I actually think that what we see at first from Young William is an admiration for genda loci I don't know if I don't know if I mentioned this on the earlier episode but the fact that Jim tell us where is all black all the time makes me feel like William modeled his like new corporate Persona his Man in Black Persona his bill Persona on Jim fellows but I think what we see in this interaction which happens after his wife Bill's wife Juliet's suicide is Bill really end and Bella's play by Ed Harris kind of set as much and season 1 still having a Reckoning with what he thought was the lesson he learned from West
00:17:51yeah I mean it went to Leah died he's like shit have I been like doing this wrong do you know but you know he's so he he mentioned that Juliet killed herself in the bath and then he mentioned that Logan died are IP you know like I'm sorry naked Lee Road that horse offense of the sunset but I had been holding out hope that we would meet an older but it seems like that's not going to happen so question about this time Liza when do we think this is
00:18:36so it's after it's after Juliet's death I think it's like is it before he goes into this part department this most recent time I think it's right for right before you go to the park the last time because the Juliet dies in The Man in Black William goes into the park and sort of works out his issues by this is when he like kills Maven her daughter like he's just doing all this crazy shit and then he's like okay none of that is making me feel better he's like well what if I solve Arnold's maze what if I wake the robots to Consciousness what if I do all of this stuff and and I said what if I destroy Westworld based and I think destroying gym here or at least shutting this project down as part of that where he's like what have I done all of this is he says the whole Enterprise in the state people are meant to live forever and I think this that means that this is the greatest mistake
00:19:36that this character reference to an episode 2 he's like Lawrence where we're going is the place of my greatest mistake this place of judgment will blonde I think he means this lab this place an end yeah and I think that I'm in the scene at the party where Logan is high and talking to Dolores and talking about how they're at their didn't know there fiddling and they don't you know they don't really know that I think he's saying it like they're going to usurp but themselves a species or something like that you know so he can he must have known what they were trying to do what with their ankle was the that's a title is riddle of the Sphinx and the the famous like riddle of the Sphinx is that hole like what what crawls in the morning and walks and then Four Lakes to Lake Three Lakes theater is what it like it's a bad and I was wondering why
00:20:36that was the episode title and I think it's because you act like this episode forces you as a lot of episodes of Westworld do to question like what is a man like what makes a man that was my interpretation did you have any eat well yeah and I think that because it's it's such a central think that that it has I guess the riddle of the Sphinx could end after this we know what love some free likes of what walks on none because their dad you know so I can let the Arc of life is what life is so if you just flattened that Ark and it just goes on and on and on is that still a person then the answer I think it's now yeah alright so that is that is the first part of the gym Dallas will see him one more time at the tail end of the next story library to talk about which is the Bernard stuff we Clementine's from dragons Bernard off into the distance at the end of the last week that said we didn't know where she was going and we found out she's taken to a lovely cave somewhere
00:21:36it was I think really interesting about this is we find out that Clementine we we see you in a few host so to speak with a voice of Robert Ford but the fact that Clementine his is like sad lobotomized figure is being controlled by Robert Lake Bernard like oh I think Robert had her dragged me here to this cave and I'm like so some of the robots are free and some of them are still like Roberts tools like what's the who gets free and who does not do you know any means but I think my central question of the of the season is like is any of this Freedom real you know it cuz I think that the bigger I think maybe as a separate issue but like with Dolores it's like this could all still be a construct of forts doing you know I don't think it is cuz I think that would sort of like be like that just kidding like this whole season has been nothing but like but you know we we don't know cuz it seems like a sort of tiered,
00:22:36just like Teddy is not quite Dolores but he's not Clementine you know so it's all
00:22:42Fordham Teddy yeah it's
00:22:48you're awake but what do you do with your wokeness that is truly independent thought and that goes back to that thing that may said to Dolores when she's like you know veterans whatever is just another prayer their alter and I will off their knees and that's what makes us think that like maybe is truly free and Dolores and indulging in her like righteous anger is still not technically programmed still on a loop dictated by her you know like the people who persecuted her she's pretty devoted to a narrative and yes she is deviated from The Narrative some because she's now like doing this little side quest where she's trying to save her dad but like that could also still be part of the whole thing so so we've got so just app so we just had the reveal of like Jim Zella Santa Ana like his own little fish bowl underground blah blah we had something else and then we get this other feel right
00:23:48images at Elsie's not dead Shadow movers back I'm not like fully like I didn't think she was dead last season because if you if you like don't show a body hitting the ground like I don't believe they're dead you know what I mean we are getting like choke but we can see your dies I was like holding out hope that she wasn't dead and not sure I buy like Shekel in a k with protein bars like I'm not saying it's lying to us I'm just like that's kind of lame like we're healthy Benji I don't think Kelsey was dead last season I think she was putting their door while they figure out what to do with her you know and a protein bar fix it so I was like wait so Ford programmed Bernard to kill us it's about a nuisance character whose name I forget but he programmed to change 4 to a cave from give her like some kind bars
00:24:41in a bucket in a bucket like that doesn't that doesn't track but oh well I'm having ever back of where she's been this whole time but I'm going to leave in like a few days right timeline wise since he did this but she went through like I don't know 10 bars are so you know Elsie is an and I will also say this
00:25:11I think I'll see is a kind character LC has a connection to Bernards Shell Toes and intellectual curiosity like she has all this other stuff so I can kind of by her helping him but it's still like a little bit so that is also a little bit of a stretch I think I'm practically speaking they need to they needed to pair him up with someone who knew the tech because you know to do this thing so like okay that's a good thing she's a good cars good actress something that I thought that that was weird in in his initial since between the two of them was like her reaction to finding out that like her trusted kind of advisor and mentor and boss was supposed to hold time is like pretty minimal right like yeah it's just I don't know your house okay like you know what you're going to say it but like I thought that that cuz that that would be a pretty big reveal I would think people who worked with him but maybe in the Panic of the moment she was just like I can't process that right now I don't know
00:26:07lyrics to you brought a tree sound like when Teresa discovers that burn are the man that she's been sleeping with is a host like you know true she doesn't like last long she dies pretty quickly but she has this like yeah I'm like oh my God I mean think about it that remains like the single most chilling scene at the house show so far too much on her feet and in this whole scenario has protein bars I guess they were quick reaction
00:26:41the best thing I can do tribute to is Hurlock intellectual curiosity of like she is freaked out that he's a host but she's also like fascinated I think by this idea that this person that like she thought she knew is actually a robot this whole time to be at your glitching out Bernard definitely needed a friendly Tech a lot of people on your team tablets out in the field is like how Kate and other people can like unless we're like I know how to track things I was like what does that mean how many people in America are like that good at like tracking sure like Jungle of Ernest but okay shirt
00:27:27so she helps Bernard and she immediately identifies what he needs which is like he needs a cortical fluid to stabilize the thing in his head and and then what happens next
00:27:40is like Westworld going as Westworld as it possibly can which is Bernard remembering a time that he went that he found a random door in the wall of his cave and then even later we'll find out that may be what we're watching with Elsa and Bernard is not also not the present I don't know it's a lot of the lot of time you buy me stuff to to swallow but in the in the midst of all of that we get huge Revelations about related to the gym Jell-O stuff about this is a lab or they are uploading Consciousness to these my days I had someone who knows these cut someone from production at Who Shall Not Be Named told me that the in universe name for this or the show named for these things are chestnuts I've been calling them Mondays but I guess the show called chestnuts and there was an episode of season one called Chestnut
00:28:40but there's the white ones which are for the host and then there are the red ones which are the ones that Consciousness is been uploaded to and they this is a they find a facility basically where they been making these red chestnuts you want to call them back and there's been a massacre right there is just like dead text everywhere and some of those creepy drone house and you mentioned in your show notes the Vitruvian man on a circular thing that makes him look like one of those Vitruvian Man DaVinci drawings
00:29:28check expositional information sort of coming at you fast I like it I think I think that the show you know again we talked about an earlier episode about like how the first season was I'm kind of being like our rights we have this cool idea but we don't really know what the show is about and then the second season is now clarifying that and I would like the choices are making I like what it's about I think it's interesting I think in a kind of weird way it's plausible but I have to say one one detail I don't like think that these like drown house or like I was like cool as though it's like that for like creepy as they're the kind of producers think they are like I watch this whole like YouTube video that was like a behind-the-scenes thing about like the making of the Drone hose it was interesting to see how they did it with these like latex costumes and stuff but like I mean they're fine but I don't really know why they would be built
00:30:17like you couldn't you just make a person like an end of program them to be a drone to distinguish them maybe be left so this time when it was just sort of like still and then came running at LC and she shot the shit out of it and I do like that Elsie's ready to use her gun but I did find it creepy like loomed up behind Bernard in like the first or feel of it but maybe if we hadn't seen it like in all the promos it worked.
00:30:53but yeah it's been like Elsie notices this lab and this is when Bernard start glitching is like a I've been here before like we already knew that and I was trying to like figure out by his outfits when that happened I was like kind of Pawling through season 1 photos to see like if I could pay in an episode where he was wearing it's just like it's a tie and a blue shirt and a jacket which is different from the vast anothai that he's wearing in the whatever time when you want to say and I couldn't quite get it because Bernard has like this is his style it's ya basic solid a neutral black grey and blue palette in like this is all he wears and so like he does were similar things in season one but I couldn't be like oh clearly he left that conversation with Teresa and then went to zombie walking into the desert to this cave from him is like this sort of Sleepwalk version of Bernard that we see it we saw it season 1 whenever he was like fully under the control of for their theirs
00:31:53really kind of funny like a lot of the deleted scenes which is literally just Jeffrey Wright walking through desert for like 2 hours cuz I think he's just doing his little like it's weird dates for Darren Elsa dress comparison between the coding for the red chestnuts in the coding or Bernard does in the coding that's in Abernathy so it's like that you know this is this is some Advanced Tech that Dallas is aware of but some of their top people in Westworld like Bernard and elsya never seen before
00:32:26adrift in time and can't tell which members are new which is fun for us trying to watch this lab and Bernard I don't know from wherever in time is like no wait stop don't do that but they go in anyway maybe we don't want to know what's in there or maybe we should know something which is which is like a kind of sort of like don't open that door so that's like a Trope that I find very like effective you know but I don't understand that's really why they wouldn't want to you know like what what's the problem with knowing that actually helps them to know this but anyway but maybe doesn't like logistically track but if you thought any of like the times that James Ellis refer to the devil was like subtle helicopter
00:33:29hopefully everything about the whole
00:33:33is that the the room there try to get it to is the room that we've been saying this whole time we're Jim Della says all the lights are red so it looks hellacious really decided for whatever reason not to burn the last version of Jim but let him just hang out and he has murdered it you know his minders what it looks like and Claude his own face off or try to and it's still on his exercise bike cuz you got to keep your cardio going and example for his all even when you're calling your face off make sure I get on the next bus by The Rolling Stones song is like creepily looping I believe on the Play With Fire Lyric and he says I'm all the way down now it's just yeah great creepy Event Horizon ask dialogue and then you text them
00:34:30and Elsia sort of overwhelmed by Bernard doesn't really seem to hesitate to to kill him and so the idea here is that when does Consciousness is uploaded to a host and it starts glitching out it doesn't just sees functioning it like keeps going it just becomes something else which is sort of an interesting idea and I haven't had probably some broader implications that you can create this kind of like demonic entity feels like it's Madness is sort of what it's kind of seems to manifest as with some glitches before he dies and once again Bravo forecasting Peter Mullan in this role Jim says a bunch of fun stuff about the devil he was like you know they said there were two fathers but when they were looking in the water it was just a reflection there was only the devil like looking up from beautiful piece of writing I think I mean it's a little heavy-handed but like I really like the idea of like weird that way when you're in the bottom looking up it was it was just a reflection that's a really evocative
00:35:30yes I go ahead and beautiful beautiful that I was like no it said it's a wet roll original by the answer then the conclusion of the story line is that Bernard realizes the last time he was there in that lab he was there from the direction of like five forces command to print a new red chestnut for someone else?? And Annette he's the one responsible for that massacre in the lab to see him like stopping like I said do you have any theories about who belongs to that register
00:36:22I don't think it's for it because I think he wanted to die so past that
00:36:30I don't know I'm wondering maybe it's like is Dolores based on someone like a cheese is she right like you know is she someone that he wanted a Consciousness to be uploaded to eventually I I don't know do you have any theories
00:36:45I like my father is that it might be Arnold's of course you and if it's like you know I think we talked before about we're not sure who that character on the beach that were seeing at the beginning of the season is right because like Bernard has his scar on his forehead and the guy played by Jeffrey right on the beach does not have a scar on his forehead is that your some fun theories you're the one who first like in planted the idea of the above the Trojan Horse for the season so this idea that someone else is inside that body it's not Bernard glitching it someone else so could it be could it be a white Chestnut belongs to The Lorax could it be a white Chestnut that belongs to Mavis like who who is posing as Bernard in that scene if that's what's happening but they're watching this episode I was like dude what if it's are like what if it's the consciousness of Arnold
00:37:45put in a like Arnold body and and the glitches that were seeing are those adapted challenges that we've seen in this episode of Dallas and it could also be the smoke monster in human form is probably smoke monster born from Melisandre gone through lost and is now in but like Sunday full does by thinking you're watching Bernard we are watching Arnold and now I think they're trying to fool us and think you were watching yeah Bernard again with some version of Arnold so I don't know why Ford would do that would bring Arnold back it seems kind of cruel cuz Arnold also want to die you know what I mean so I don't know why you would do that it seems like a cool thing to do with his friend I can't think of another human that makes sense to me you know unless it's like will you like men
00:38:45what does the face at Harrison the end who knows maybe that's what he's headed headed towards his own immortality so we'll find out in the finale probably but for now we we know that that's the thing that they got two more storylines to get to one is speaking of Ed Harris and and and delirium Bill we've got Lawrence and Bill
00:39:12back in the town of last movie I swear they went to in season one where I Lawrence's family lives and this seems to be about Bill I don't know why anymore wanting more people or oh yeah they had to go through last minute cuz that's the way to go but before they got there I sorry I wanted to talk about this railroad Bratayley right kind of but I think one thing this episode is trying to do is like Explorer loves all his themes of Oppression right and I think and overthrowing the Masters and so I think what we get here in this scene and then with some of the stuff with the major product character who like is really shity to some Mexican people you know this like you know white oppressor sort of oppressed so we've got these Chinese laborers and they
00:40:12play like the white people I think they're humans guess but they might just be white host I don't know I think they were hose yeah I think you're more afraid that they were humans but they put them down as railroad ties and I was like less of creative things to do with the dead also noticed he knows the park so well he knows that the railroad track is going in a different direction than it usually goes that's going west and he's like oh guess we're not the only ones going to a certain place so like that reinforces the idea that a lot of characters this season are racing towards the same and call right now it's basically it's a mad mad mad world it's all I have and I never will. So then we
00:41:12I can apologize okay so that we get to let me get like a repetition to summon stuff we found season one with the bartender and all this other stuff all the time call backs but there's an interloper in town it's everyone's favorite star of Virgin Suicides Jonathan Tucker is here I got really excited for this cuz I was worried that like when he ran off he says that he no like bills Bill Riley knows that they've had like some chunks taking out of him and he's like yeah some bitch named why it feels like good for her so like you know Bill like this murderous Dolores that is he seeing so we're calling a bill now.
00:41:55I'm calling a bill because that's what
00:41:59all the I'm calling a bill to distinguish it from Young Williams feels like post Park William Healy call me Bill now you know I'm a bill I'm at Harris now so call me back
00:42:19and then we talked before about like this the Jesus in history that's running for the season I just think it's so interesting that like major Craddock seems to like think he's beside a contender but he's holding Court in this church is sipping from a chalice of the altar like he's doing all this stuff. I mean that but that's what Jesus would do but I want to bring up the subject again of robot children and how there are problems daughter is demonstrable the older than she was the last time we saw her but I think the same is true for the girl playing bass daughter we already talked about that would like the kid playing for young Ford and so I kill more robot children does Michael Kill Your Darlings Murder Your Baby Darling smiley
00:43:10Bill Bill to try to strike a deal with chronic and he says he knows the way to Glory Craddock is looking for the weapons that the last witness people are are chilling what I think the function of this back-and-forth thing is between Lawrence and Kraddick in and Bill and like I'm calling him now is to immediately position bill as a more sympathetic character than we've seen before he was just picking up hoes left and right but now when Craddock does it like he feels defensive and protective of them also because he was picking them off left and right what he was feeling sort of frustrated at there were no steaks so but now that there are maybe he has a sort of different view of the whole experience because he could die 2
00:44:01you know yeah and I also just want to be always aware that this is always Robert Robert Ford's game that I was playing and so there's a point when Lawrence was talking to Bella the church and he's like don't you have a daughter and I think that that's not just just let us know if you were up for the reveal at the end of the episode I think it's also like Bill gives him a look like to Lawrence like I mean I definitely haven't talked to you about this since you got reset so I don't know why you're bringing this up but also he's like four door you fucking with me through this robot it was sort of my interpretation of that look here's a broader problem of the show that I wonder how they're going to address is in this episode we see a tenant in a previous episodes we've seen Williams bills interesting in a complicated relationship with Jim Dallas with Logan Dallas
00:45:01with the Taurus understand all of that but this elaborate game has been set up with him for him by Robert and they had this kind of like oppositional relationship is that we haven't seen them interact at all and now we might not because Hopkins is not on the show anymore and how do you cast a young version of him no because I've already use CGI to make it young Robert like so I'm just I feel like there's a kind of lacking in terms of understanding why exactly there is this game that the two were playing back and forth to know I agree with you and I agree that that's a challenge presented by the lack of Hopkins and I guess we'll just have to agree watch that one scene they have in season 1 to get are better understanding but also I think the the flashback episode where we see how William has engineered like basically a hostile takeover of Ford's company and turned it from whatever it was that form is doing with this exploration of a I and II
00:46:01a creepy corporation that you know spies on his gas and collects DNA and stuff like that like that's a Corruption of Swords vision and so like all of his resentment about Dallas in the money man which he which is all 3 season 1 coming out of Ford we can imagine that he is pinned a lot of that specifically on William insertive engineer that has the motivation but you're right it would be more satisfying I understand that this order Central class between them but like I just thought it would be nice if it was articulated like in seams together because we get so many interesting at what I like about the flashbacks a lot is that like it's fun to just watch people sit and talk versus you know riding horses and shooting self respond to so I just wish that like that was possible with between William Robert but I mean maybe down the line it is somehow
00:46:58I mean they can do great stuff with like McAfee statement should have got Anthony Hopkins head like scanned into
00:47:08the William flashing to barbell flashing to Juliet suicide like he remembers the suicide at some point when Craddock is like torturing the house and he says his thing to Chronic raised like just decisions are finally pulling the living that waiver death is always true you haven't owned a true thing in your life and so really does seem to pay in all of this change of heart and Bill to the death of Julie like the death of Juliet and his guilt around that death has changed his mind about immortality in dabbling with it and stuff like that and then he's he gets a fun like Poetic like you like the even Sitting Duck has been sitting across me this whole time so he is positioned himself as death like that's we're even talking about devils in Jesus's I like that but but Bill is thinking of himself now as like as the representation of death and
00:48:08he takes out Craddock or he lets Lawrence take out Craddock and Lawrence rewards him by giving him in the paria scene of his eyes like no you have to do this alone and then after less mood us like he's not his bills not allowed he gets Lawrence and his cousins are like with him and it seems like to me it feels like a reward that Ford has given bill for unlocking a level of understanding
00:48:39alright so what I think from this episode is that the game the door game that is playing is about empathy for the hosts I think that's what I think what do you give ya know I think that makes sense I think in a weird way Ford I don't think Ford is trying to like destroy William at all I think he's trying to get him to see some core truth that Robert understood about what this all is that William didn't which is kind of benevolent in a weird way but all the while knowing that like William could easily die while doing it
00:49:14right and it's like a hard lesson when we get another avatar for Ford which is Lawrence is daughter who who was an avatar for Ford in season one too but you know she's like I think she says if you're looking if you're looking forward you're doing it wrong you have to look back right I throw you something that she does have another like oblique little clue yet if you're looking forward you're looking in the wrong direction and less and less I guess this all to be programmed like William stinks or bills thinks he can die but maybe can't you know like it maybe he's already a host snowboard why season 3
00:49:52the last time you get with Bill we should we should run through Emily Sterling really quickly before he gets his final encounter the character we were told to call Grace is not because he hurt his character as she's being brought in the ghost Nation last time you saw her she's watching up against like the shore Westworld and a member of ghost nation was her standing over her it is interesting that the ghost Nation name because you have Ghost Protocol and Rogue Nation condition possible I don't know anything I just like I get confused I almost called them they are ghost nation in the Rogue Nation comes back and says we should have been like stupid stuff shows up on the beach and episode 1 it sort of a crazy mom because like Elsie he was left on a cliffhanger last season he was so overcome by ghost nation and we didn't know what had herot
00:50:52as of this is like feeling in the back story that anchors us once again a little bit in the plot in the timeline of like this is happening like she got abducted by ghost Nation like right around when Ford died right and so we're seeing stubs right around went like this is what happened exactly you know at the end of it after what happened in season one and then you Grace / Emily has all the stuff that makes its like her even more like she can speak the language and Subs like what you speak their language this to me is once again on that theme of like like the people of color of the park and what is their story in like you know who are who are like the shity way people and who aren't and she's like you know a lot of people don't pay enough attention to go station to bother to learn their language she's like I don't like other people and I'm like I like you so much
00:51:52interesting that she clearly has been to the park so many times as her father so I'm I'm really interested to see what that's all about and like whether they're aware of each other being at the park at the same time or whatever you know I'm I'm I'm I think that'll be an interesting Dynamic Explorer
00:52:11yeah yeah that was part of like as her putting the pieces together on this episode of like who is this woman I like oh yeah like it make sense to me that that builds daughter Emily would have been would be super familiar with the Park Allosaurus stuff and Subs like what we want to get out of here we got to do that she's like yeah and actually understand getting out of here so like I think her Mission possibly to find her father but maybe she's something else in mind because we did see that she has like this weird little map that she was looking at so I don't know if she is like another another idea maybe she's off to find her grandfather she doesn't know she has classes on face off at this point probably go station tells tells the Emily character like we're going to find the first of us and then we get the return is on the Clarendon who we saw in episode 2 as a person who originally pitched Logan Della's on the park and this time he's wearing like
00:53:11logos Nation makeup and I like I said you have the first of us because yeah that's sort of like the Dolores role elsewhere and goes Nation like has their version of that oldest host of the sky so and he says his character Keisha test as the same Stubbs I think he says You Only Live only as long as the last person who remembers you other meditation and work out which really hit me in the gut and I was like please buy my book and read my book and give it to your children and their children give it to their so I can live forever remember this podcast absolutely absolutely and so then we we get the final moment which is which is so once again this is Lisa choi's first like her directorial debut
00:54:11Emily riding up with the sun behind her she looks great by the way and then she says like hello Dad which is your right such a lost moment and they don't seem that surprises each other as if it's a thing so maybe they did run into each other in the at the park before you know
00:54:31God I hope she run into him when he was like
00:54:34it is like super murderface she's like Hey Dad murder any Homestead I'm going back to India or whatever but some are tigers so this is Aiden up so full of eels I watched it a couple times at this point I really like it I this is like my favorite episode of the season so far I think mostly for that like Jim Dallas lost shit which Is My Jam at the stuff in the bunker or whatever you want to call it was great and really like helps Define the show when or at least the season and you know I can't I was surprised that they would put Dole out this much information in the 4th episode of a 10-episode run but at the same time when Exposition is meted out that well and that elegantly and intriguingly all right so I'm curious to see what the show is next
00:55:33yeah and maybe what that means for Westworld is that it's not as concerned with I mean they're still so many reveals and twists and turns them and I'm already like maybe a Arnold on the beach maybe at Harrah's of the robot like all of their stuff but like the maybe Westworld isn't as concerned as hiding things the rest of season is it felt like it wasn't season 1 you know that's that's what that's about so
00:56:05story yesterday on the Park after you're so lucky to have Jonathan Tucker I wanted to kick off by asking to go out with episode for which ended with a fiery way for you to say so I wanted to talk to you about that specifically what was what was that like working with Lisa Joy Storyteller and she's so excited about these characters in this world it wasn't a surprise to me how what if I file adjustment it was from the writers room to you know physical production she is so sensitive she understands that there's that the other something unquantifiable
00:57:00that happens or that it that's that's exchange between the below-the-line crew and what ends up happening in front of the camera so when you treat people well you treat your crew members well and this is not just the people that you know directly affect the shot but you know what the drivers the hair makeup team the electric Department Griffin those people feel like they're of value there's something special that gets put into the into the food so to speak you know it's like meeting love into the food and she she brings that respect for all them to sew in a really positive experience with her and she's just is just one of those lovely human beings I've ever had the chance to work with
00:58:00Ezra season 1 to preserve some of the mystery that they're trying to reveal how much of the script for your script of your pages did you get it and then disorienting is that as a process
00:58:16no it it's yeah it looks like it me or you get that like CIA redacted. He is I like to why work I got you a lot of dream work at a lot of animal work on DreamWorks for my characters in my work at it's very rewarding it's a lot of fun but also a lot of insight into the choices that my characters are going to make consciously and subconsciously chops just your child sitting for more
00:58:57but the story itself is so much like a dream and maybe one that's not just lose it but you know like drug-induced either you're just all over the place till I feel like it's the third eye closed the process works for the creation of the show but I also felt like maybe be having these want these huge gaps and slides in will my character know if it doesn't know potentially was helpful that was my only way of justifying it but I'll tell you the truth you make sure more interesting viewing for me as an audience on my way
00:59:34there we all like on the red carpet like for the premiere of the of the show on Hollywood Boulevard and you're turning around you don't know my God they are so are you in are you in the show cuz you don't know if they're there like as like a publicity event or if they're actually going to participate in the should I guess now I am I think for 6 and 8 I'm not sure yet okay with World why don't actually know cuz I let you know so it will all kind of putting together the pieces ourselves at the actual Premiere episode of the show so fun watching cuz I don't even know you know where it's some of these things ended up Never Say Never because you have an option of coming back if I don't flash bathroom future whatever I can to like we can't claim an exploding Craddock is the end of you on Westworld what is that do for you sort of artistically to
01:00:34so many things are potentially up in the air
01:00:39that's a great question well I think Westworld is it good example of a habit of not using the words never always and if you're ever trying to digest or dissect Westworld you should not say never or always with anything at any time so there's always enough to go back when you like I guess what you would you look for jazz and after your kind of I think it's called
01:01:28because she is much an amount as possible but I'm the day you're kind of like you just one either your 1141 grab at a time and your family feud 3 feet ahead of you and if it reads like the mountain analogy thinking indoor rock climbing gym or where the top ski out of like when you're climbing up and then it goes down a little bit I can one of those climbing machine used so I guess you're just trying to be like it honest and truthful with what you've created that you're bringing to the Little Rock Climbing machine but you're just going one grab one I'll send to grab at a time and then adjusting Andrea just think I don't know what that metaphor works at the first time I've used it but they're going to walk into your trailer go okay he's like we said we do that a lot come in the shower she okay
01:02:28and we were talking about this on the podcast about how the concept of that scene is kind of blown for those of us who are like oh my God but what direction were you yeah there's a part where he just likes rid of glinting Lee I would say is when I would use sort of look at Bed bars of characters he's walking through what kind of direction did you get for that scene thrilled because you know the way with the scheduling work out I could shave for that team so I was so mad I was just like skipping to said I was so happy that the scheduling and I worked out where I could have this Confederate mustache you know I have facial hair piece for all the work we previously. And I could be clean shaven for this
01:03:20that was very exciting to me and it was really about I guess I'm at everyone like we actually are like standing there Frozen like that old boy that old at that like late late 80s early 90s show where the movie character for your fingers together and like everything stops you know that show out of this world and seeing those characters like they will definitely try to stand still they weren't like Frozen by the front camera that's the only did I don't know if they changed it like they chewed it up in post-production but they're like and fries and you're just Frozen it was it was just at these robots These Hoes are so much high-quality the best I've ever made that they're they're basically
01:04:18indiscernible give me from a human being and that's not part of the fun aspect of playing the robot with artificial intelligence you can make up some of the Interior yourself as an Acura in conjunction of course with
01:04:46Seaside Jonah and the rest of the wonderful letters room is is like if I try new food for instance or like in the opening scene intro to that kind of like Last Supper tell blow feeling the grease in my hands are like tasting that me and my mouth and like have allowing those calculations for them be a part of that character almost seamlessly but not but not perfectly seamless you know constantly discovering things as as the robot as a artificial intelligence of incorporating them into that character moving forward but learning so to speak the scene with that cocktail scene in the in 202
01:05:40the idea of this guy's looking at me funny giving me any more attention when you line up a bunch of people in one side of the table like that's that's that's a little Last Supper clue usually what does that in some kind of Jesus our Messiah position and if so like is that just in his own mind or do you think that works for the larger themes of the show to put in the I think the playing with
01:06:32with Jesus I can be physical themes and stories did you bring somebody back to life which character does not seeing a lot of those bigger themes ivi I'm always playing with an incorporated but I don't want to read any I don't want to make any gray I didn't make any decisions about what I was representing in terms of direct characters like Jesus church or like turkey from a childless and all this other stuff when we're playing God what do we do when we are in control of other people's Destinies and our own and what does it mean to search for Glory
01:07:32what is used to the valley do for this part animal work-wise look at a lot of lies and work on the sky work like relationship to the skies looking at you know that that that was where I went projects and everything she had a hundred miles an hour and it is as an actor you're the last person I dropped into this is flowing river and so you just got to like the equipped with your pad on your boat in your supplies cuz you're going like once Skinner this thing is happening that I have a few projects. Developed American literally literally be years before you go to camera and now you know having to having a developing material I look at Akron oh my God these guys coming in last minute
01:08:32get the mail I just got a job you have joke around a craft service fooling around and rehearsal and there's like coming in front of the cameras and some lines going home like man we work on this thing for years is like if everything is moving so fast and all these decisions for production design to what their shot was looks like the Wardrobe hair makeup and that's all the locations of all the made-up like you have to be ready to run and animals you just drop any animal with your space and they know exactly what they're going to do like to know what where there's no what space to hide in or where to make the biggest mating call of the greatest place of like you know of dominance suitcases and I'm very concerned with movement and if I don't have an animal to work with I feel slightly lost because of what that movements going to be on that last supper how do you stand up
01:09:32walk over her to her cuz you're so many different animals so many choices to make in that movement project you just you want to just want to be your best and you better you better you better come come ready to play at work a little bit bad not very much but you get to work with Evan you get to work with James and you get to work with Ed Harris like you get to hit like these major players through your Ark what was it what was it like like knowing that you get to work with Evan who you've known for so long or maybe at Harris who is like such a legend like what is what is that like for you she's just being very very special woman on so many levels it's just there's a sense of comfort with her and
01:10:32open the same school you know what kind of literally did we are and who really kicked off the careers whole generation of actors here in Los Angeles for times in all of his movies like it it's it's it's thrilling it was more thrilling to see his work habits and maybe it was score with him maybe I have added to that out loud but I guess it's all natural chew through and I'm talking to you because you going there like you go now I can go to work so you don't I don't want I don't really want to work with a polite actor I want to work and by that I mean to say like in character on the day in the
01:11:32the same way you don't want to go until you know a boxing ring or with somebody who's like giving you shots you only really you know that so what's impressive is when you get to see somebody that you admire and love be better even better than you thought they'd be upset just how to treat other people on what the work has that you're like oh this is why around for as long as he has good work to other actors who will go on name to hit them when this had some real cheap and they haven't been this kind and generous to people to maybe at that point they start didn't have much to offer them and you know that that you can laugh you can last a lot
01:12:32your last for a while being unprofessional but you can't last forever if you show up prepared have a point of view you've done the work then you can find some dynamism or magic in the air on the day in front of the camera completely open to the to the world and you're a nice person like because Google got all that sounds great love to hang out that guy started this business for couple years of every time I mention someone I admire
01:13:32Green Valley cash item I have so many stories like that for the most part I really for the most part that behavior doesn't pay off something that you mentioned earlier when you were talking to me do you think that at least in this episode that crowd exist as a sort of Elemental Evil force in this town I just got to guess I never saw him is pure the evil you know there's somebody thinks he's doing it so you know I think there's like a great deal is on
01:14:05not really all that came to defend any of his actions and it's also hard to see what the evil in these places where it's not even a human being I don't look at a tiger stalking prey like an evil tiger like that's just the tiger and if this guy is just a hungry animal after after Glory you know when you say Glory he's driving for Glory when you are portraying that character what is that destination mean to you as you put that character together it could be Heaven somebody who desperately hungry looking for food somebody who's thirsty looking for water you know about pilgrims going to Jerusalem akimeka any of those are putting together all these different ideas of what that looks like and it also looks like a leopard look at going after food
01:15:05incredible piece of meat out there
01:15:10you keep bringing up these sort of like big game cats when talking about the character and I'm looking for I could have gone with the hawk example which is kind of weird actually where I went that we all understand that it just in the sake of conversation like we understand the game animals very clearly but likely would be a Hawkeye scanning on the horizon in the sky with the FED that you're feeling of feathers on the back it was a lot of the Horizon Lines in a connection between the Earth and the heavens when you play a character that gets blown up two bits and pieces are you at all involved like is that your back or treating or is that only a stunt person and if it's not you involved you get to watch your avatar get blown up in some way or another I did get to watch the I did get to watch the explosion of my
01:16:10of My Double your asking that it like it was right back at that rain is pouring watch myself explode and they were pieces of Dylan pieces of major Craddock all over that sets
01:16:29is there a is that surreal at all
01:16:33winter million things in your in your long career but is it a log in the way I'd the way the Men in Black disposes of my character was pretty unique and I thought hold the Epic it was a great tonight's too because we going to wear out there to about 2 hours north of California leave a train trucks lined up all night what channel does I don't know. 20000 gallons of water in them and we'll just out there in the cold rain while you think it's like a cold shower like full call Jared you're doing it all night and going back to like what kind of habits are the right haven't that have in front of the camera and off you just kind of you got to go all right as you're driving to work I could be a cold night can be pretty miserable and dirt the tragedy
01:17:33sopping wet and you're going to crawl into it and it will pushing pushing a line with your chin to get a hook in the mouth by Ed Harris's hands and fingers you do that until the sun comes up for the next 14 hours cuz there's a little bit pretty binary you're like either absolutely you're the great attitude or you are a total pain to be around so I chatted with the former and we made the best of it and you know there is also you also like wow this is horrible as this is it's still pretty pretty amazing
01:18:23I thought is it for us this week I think we will be back obviously next week until then Richard can people find your way I'm on Twitter at Royals r i l a w s and you know I'm already going to be up. I am also writing already fair.com where we should I do another podcast a little gold men and you can also find me on Twitter at Joe wrote this this episode was engineered by Danielle Ralph and produced by Dave Gonzalez and Katie Rich we will see you next time
01:18:55these violent Delights

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A weekly deep dive into the HBO limited series Sharp Objects, based of the novel by Gillian Flynn, starring Amy Adams and Patricia Clarkson. A struggling journalist returns home to confront her troubled past while covering a terrifying local investigation. Follow the mystery with Vanity Fair critic Richard Lawson, senior writer Joanna Robinson, and a roster of guests.
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31 episodes
since Dec, 2017
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