Full Transcript for StarTalk Podcast_ Exploring Grit_ with Angela Duckworth _ Neil deGrasse Tyson

77 00:03:51.780 --> 00:03:56.289 like this is what I'm not studying, I couldn't agree more. 78 00:03:56.349 --> 00:03:59.590 That character, including your grit and more, these are all 79 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:03.990 things that matter for kids to develop as they grow up. Sweet. Sweet. 80 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:08.310 And also your co-host of the podcast, No Stupid Questions. 81 00:04:08.780 --> 00:04:12.039 So you're ideal for a Cosmic Queries, because you're not 82 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:15.840 gonna make anybody feel bad. Chuck will read a question 83 00:04:15.860 --> 00:04:17.300 and say, that's a stupid question. I will. 84 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:18.620 I'm not gonna tell Chuck. 85 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:20.600 Chuck will be all up in it. 86 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:23.279 I will tell people in a second, that is stupid. 87 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:28.220 You can have just stupid questions. We could pair up. 88 00:04:28.379 --> 00:04:31.860 A spinoff, a spinoff of the ones that Angela rejects. 89 00:04:31.899 --> 00:04:33.620 I like that, just stupid questions. 90 00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:35.259 Probably more fun. 91 00:04:35.850 --> 00:04:38.009 And back in 2017, you were a MacArthur Fellow. That's 92 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:41.610 the genius fellow that are so widely written about people. 93 00:04:41.689 --> 00:04:43.629 And it's a huge chunk of money that you could 94 00:04:43.689 --> 00:04:45.670 like go to the Bahamas with it if you chose. 95 00:04:46.230 --> 00:04:51.970 I donated my MacArthur to Character Lab. You know, honestly, 96 00:04:51.990 --> 00:04:54.949 I don't know what MacArthur Fellows do with their money, 97 00:04:55.069 --> 00:04:57.269 but I kind of think it would be gross to 98 00:04:57.310 --> 00:04:57.980 keep it. Don't you think? 99 00:04:58.300 --> 00:04:59.579 It's a nice chunk of change. You want to do 100 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:00.709 something right with it. 101 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:01.459 Yeah. 102 00:05:01.819 --> 00:05:03.100 You don't just go to Vegas or anything. 103 00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:04.860 Yeah, I need to go to Vegas. 104 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:07.360 Thereby being a reflection of your character. 105 00:05:08.980 --> 00:05:11.839 I have to say this. Like, no kidding here. Like, 106 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:16.290 being the, you know, titular head of Character Lab, there 107 00:05:16.310 --> 00:05:18.470 have been many times where I have thought, like, I 108 00:05:18.490 --> 00:05:20.730 want to say this. I want to do this. I 109 00:05:20.750 --> 00:05:22.970 want to tweet this. I want to retweet. Like, and 110 00:05:22.990 --> 00:05:25.509 then I think, but probably not the best thing for 111 00:05:25.529 --> 00:05:27.819 the head of Character Lab to do. 112 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:28.189 Yeah. 113 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.100 So you need an alter ego or something, you know? 114 00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:34.279 Yeah, I need like a secret, like alter identity. 115 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:37.420 Angela Devilsworth, you know? 116 00:05:37.500 --> 00:05:39.350 Yeah, exactly. 117 00:05:41.430 --> 00:05:45.189 So this is a Cosmic Queries and we solicited questions 118 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:49.300 on grit and perseverance and right up your alley. And Chuck, 119 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:51.100 you said people were just all in it. 120 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:54.939 Man, I mean, you have really touched a nerve here. 121 00:05:56.699 --> 00:06:01.490 with the idea of, with your work on grit, because 122 00:06:01.610 --> 00:06:06.040 people are, Not only just asking questions, but then people 123 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.399 were debating each other from the questions that they asked online. 124 00:06:10.600 --> 00:06:13.139 And I've never seen that happen before with the Cosmic Queries. 125 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:13.740 Yeah. 126 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:15.889 Oh, gosh. Now I'm really curious. I want to know 127 00:06:15.910 --> 00:06:16.689 what people are saying. 128 00:06:16.769 --> 00:06:20.410 So they created dust-ups even within the inquiry page. 129 00:06:20.430 --> 00:06:24.250 With people asking questions, it created just responses to the questions. 130 00:06:24.470 --> 00:06:26.029 And that is good. It means that you are a 131 00:06:26.089 --> 00:06:27.949 catalyst for conversation, which is wonderful. 132 00:06:28.370 --> 00:06:29.470 Ooh, I love the alliteration, Chuck. 133 00:06:29.490 --> 00:06:31.949 That was pretty cool. So here we go, right? 134 00:06:31.970 --> 00:06:33.509 Let's do it. Let's do this. 135 00:06:33.569 --> 00:06:35.860 And we always start with a Patreon patron because they 136 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.660 support us financially. And of course, we'd be fools not to. 137 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:47.240 So let's go with Thomas. Elenskis. Elenskis. 138 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:48.019 There we go. 139 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.319 Elenskis. There you go. Thomas Elenskis. 140 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:52.939 Somehow I doubt it, but go on. 141 00:06:53.240 --> 00:06:55.240 I know. I was like, I'm not going to try 142 00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:55.600 that one. 143 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:56.279 Yeah, Angela. 144 00:06:56.300 --> 00:06:56.759 Thomas. 145 00:06:57.139 --> 00:06:58.939 Well, you will see that a running theme here in 146 00:06:58.980 --> 00:07:02.750 StarTalk is that I butcher people's names. 147 00:07:02.829 --> 00:07:04.850 Oh, that's good. I hope you're doing it indiscriminately. Like 148 00:07:04.949 --> 00:07:07.870 you should equally offend everyone. I do. 149 00:07:07.870 --> 00:07:08.649 Yeah, exactly. 150 00:07:08.750 --> 00:07:12.610 That's the point. Everybody's name gets butchered and it's, you know, it's, yeah, 151 00:07:12.810 --> 00:07:16.050 I won't even say, I won't go any further. It says, hey, Dr. 152 00:07:16.089 --> 00:07:19.439 Tyson and Dr. Duckworth, having served in the Army for 153 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:23.339 four years, my fellow veterans have come to realize the 154 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:30.100

importance of resiliency. Now, as a psychology major, what tools 155 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:36.100 could I use to help others transition successfully into the 156 00:07:36.220 --> 00:07:41.389 civilian mindset? Coming to you from Fort Benning. 157 00:07:42.189 --> 00:07:42.709 Good question. 158 00:07:43.180 --> 00:07:44.680 Angela, do you think that question– Did you see my 159 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:45.420 shirt here, by the way? 160 00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:46.439 I see that, Army. 161 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.279 And that was not– this is just a dress down 162 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:50.480 a little bit for you guys. 163 00:07:50.560 --> 00:07:52.199 It was the last thing in the drawer because you 164 00:07:52.220 --> 00:07:52.899 haven't done laundry. 165 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:55.610 Well, you know what? I actually have a lot of 166 00:07:55.689 --> 00:07:59.329 West Point swag because I've been working with West Point for, 167 00:07:59.350 --> 00:08:02.129 I don't know, 15 years or something. So this is 168 00:08:02.149 --> 00:08:04.589 right there. Yeah, tax dollars at work here. 169 00:08:04.829 --> 00:08:07.149 I wonder if that question relates to the fact that 170 00:08:07.170 --> 00:08:11.730 in the Army, you are commanded to perform. and someone 171 00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:15.000 is screaming at you, calling you a maggot, and you 172 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:17.920 don't want to be a maggot. Whereas in regular life, 173 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.319 no one is calling you a maggot, unless that happens 174 00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:24.480 to Chuck. Absolutely. 175 00:08:24.500 --> 00:08:25.899 Chuck wants to weigh in on that. 176 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:31.350 It's normally my father-in-law, but it's okay. I think of 177 00:08:31.389 --> 00:08:32.549 it as a term of endearment. 178 00:08:33.350 --> 00:08:37.230 So if that force isn't operating on you, I don't 179 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:39.759 want to over-interpret his question, but it seems to me, 180 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.700 It's where do you, if a military person is trying 181 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:46.519 to offer help to a civilian, they're trying to find 182 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:49.779 ways that a civilian can get motivated, perhaps from within. 183 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:51.000 Yeah. 184 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:55.309 And if I'm, again, like reading into Thomas's question, just guessing, 185 00:08:55.590 --> 00:08:57.269 I think a lot of people have the question, when 186 00:08:57.309 --> 00:09:00.029 you move out of the military into civilian life or you, 187 00:09:00.730 --> 00:09:03.370 you know, retire from a sports team or any of 188 00:09:03.409 --> 00:09:07.529 these major life transitions where you were gritty, no doubt, right, 189 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:12.269 in something, right? How do you transfer that in another domain? 190 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:15.590 And I think it is a good question because I 191 00:09:15.649 --> 00:09:20.370 actually don't think, you know, being gritty in one situation, 192 00:09:20.389 --> 00:09:23.460 then everything changes. I don't think there's any guarantee that 193 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:27.120 you're especially going to be, you know, passionate and persevering 194 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:29.539 in this next thing. I mean, it's not that you 195 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:32.299 change entirely. I just think that we come to rely 196 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:34.000 a lot on those structures. And maybe this is what 197 00:09:34.039 --> 00:09:37.240 you're getting at, Neil, like, you know, the military is 198 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.500 so structured so is by the way being a part 199 00:09:40.539 --> 00:09:42.519 of a professional sports team and so are a lot 200 00:09:42.539 --> 00:09:45.950 of other professions that require a lot of grit and. 201 00:09:45.929 --> 00:09:48.070 When you take somebody out of that discipline yeah. 202 00:09:48.049 --> 00:09:50.789 And discipline right and they're like their routines there are 203 00:09:50.850 --> 00:09:53.809 like things that you don't have to like invent entirely 204 00:09:53.909 --> 00:09:55.909 on your own i mean getting up early isn't that 205 00:09:55.970 --> 00:09:58.330 hard when you are part of active service right you 206 00:09:58.350 --> 00:09:59.690 don't have to like think like how am i going 207 00:09:59.710 --> 00:10:02.000 to get up early and like schedule my day? Um, 208 00:10:02.250 --> 00:10:04.320 so I think it is a good question. And, um, 209 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:07.500 if the advice is like, what could I, as somebody 210 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.039 who is gritty and is in the military, like say 211 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:13.139 to somebody who is transitioning, or maybe there are, maybe 212 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:15.100 there are civilians and they've never been in the military. 213 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:18.539 I always think stories are the, are the best way 214 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:21.279 to do it. Like you know, it's a, it's a, 215 00:10:21.730 --> 00:10:24.529 it's something I've not actually fully understood as a scientist, 216 00:10:24.570 --> 00:10:27.730 but there is something about the human mind that learns 217 00:10:27.830 --> 00:10:30.879 from stories in a way that we, and you tell 218 00:10:30.899 --> 00:10:32.659 me what you guys think, like that, that we, like, 219 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.120 we never forget them. Like I hardly forget a story 220 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:38.259 that somebody, you know, tell, whereas statistics just run through 221 00:10:38.299 --> 00:10:40.960 like water, like a sieve. Right. And, and, and there's 222 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:44.620 this kind of stickiness and sometimes, you know, like there's a, 223 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:47.279 There's a moral, so we remember the story, but also 224 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:49.980 the moral. Anyway, I think telling stories that are true 225 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:53.919 and that are maybe helpful to illustrate times that you 226

00:10:53.950 --> 00:10:56.809 struggled with resilience, but what you learned and what worked 227 00:10:56.830 --> 00:10:57.169 for you. 228 00:10:57.409 --> 00:10:59.309 So not just a story in the abstract, but a 229 00:10:59.409 --> 00:11:04.009 personal experience story, which presumably makes it that much more real. 230 00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:05.330 What do you think about that, though? 231 00:11:05.350 --> 00:11:05.590 I agree. 232 00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:07.580 You guys do a lot more conversing than I do. 233 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:12.289 Tirely. I think, just look back. You know, when children 234 00:11:12.350 --> 00:11:15.309 sit in a circle around a storyteller, they are completely wrapped. 235 00:11:15.710 --> 00:11:17.809 And you don't even need video for that. You can 236 00:11:17.850 --> 00:11:20.250 just sit there. And if you're a good storyteller, you 237 00:11:20.269 --> 00:11:22.629 just talk to them and they're wrapped. And the adult 238 00:11:22.649 --> 00:11:24.250 version of that is when you go to the movies 239 00:11:24.580 --> 00:11:26.820 and someone is telling you a story from the screen. 240 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.779 So not only that, the constellations of the night sky, 241 00:11:32.019 --> 00:11:34.480 I've studied them just because they're fun to talk about 242 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.409 when you have a star party, but they're stories. Every 243 00:11:38.450 --> 00:11:42.190 constellation has a story. And I was told, I read 244 00:11:42.210 --> 00:11:48.240 that this was a way that you boosted conversational literacy. 245 00:11:48.460 --> 00:11:50.580 Like you would just talk about this guy and wherever 246 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:52.350 you were, the sky was with you. And you'd be 247 00:11:52.370 --> 00:11:53.529 able to tell that to others. 248 00:11:53.549 --> 00:11:55.029 You mean like in ancient times? 249 00:11:55.330 --> 00:11:56.590 Yeah, ancient times, of course. 250 00:11:56.610 --> 00:11:58.509 Not without the app that you. 251 00:11:58.429 --> 00:12:00.190 Look at the app and you hold up the app. 252 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:03.669 In my day, we had to remember where the stars 253 00:12:03.710 --> 00:12:05.970 were and none of this app stuff. 254 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:07.409 But those were ancient times. 255 00:12:07.899 --> 00:12:11.460 But the mythologies were one way to remember them was 256 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:13.759 you put them in the sky and they're in the dome. 257 00:12:13.980 --> 00:12:15.519 They're in your cosmic dome every night. 258 00:12:16.460 --> 00:12:18.620 Yeah, and I think there's, like, an emotion that comes 259 00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:21.759 with stories that, like, never really comes through as statistics. 260 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.129 And then, you know, if you tell a story about 261 00:12:24.169 --> 00:12:26.549 your own life, there's a little bit of a, like, 262 00:12:27.029 --> 00:12:33.090 people can see themselves, like, in your shoes. So, yeah, 263 00:12:33.129 -->

00:12:35.230 like I said, I haven't really impacted, like, all the, 264 00:12:35.690 --> 00:12:38.009 what are all the magic ingredients of stories? Because they 265 00:12:38.070 --> 00:12:41.799 are magical. But I think we named a couple of them. Yeah. 266 00:12:41.820 --> 00:12:43.240 All right, another question. What do you have? 267 00:12:43.259 --> 00:12:47.820 Okay, here we go. Leslie Goodwill of Patreon also wants 268 00:12:47.899 --> 00:12:53.179 to know. She says, my daughter Trinity asks, how the 269 00:12:53.330 --> 00:13:00.509 science of grit and perseverance can relate to the cosmic perspective? 270 00:13:02.210 --> 00:13:05.019 What? I feel like I should pass that immediately to Neil. 271 00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:06.500 No, no. We have to tag team this. 272 00:13:06.580 --> 00:13:06.940 No, no, no. 273 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.120 This is a tag team question. So we have to 274 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:09.700 figure out. 275 00:13:10.309 --> 00:13:13.879 So first, let's break this down. First, is there a 276 00:13:13.909 --> 00:13:16.860 way to encapsulate the science of grit? 277 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:18.580 Yeah, we should probably start with that. That's probably my 278 00:13:18.620 --> 00:13:20.039 part of the collaboration here, right? 279 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:20.559 Yes, yes. 280 00:13:20.580 --> 00:13:21.580 Okay. 281 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.720 So in a nutshell, what I mean by grit is 282 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:30.919 this combination of passion and perseverance for really long-term goals. 283 00:13:31.299 --> 00:13:33.240 And I think that's the part I really want to emphasize. 284 00:13:33.279 --> 00:13:34.620 Not being like, oh my God, I want to be 285 00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.610 a stand-up comic and I so want to do it. 286 00:13:36.929 --> 00:13:39.399 And that person's like staying up at, you know, till 287 00:13:39.419 --> 00:13:41.919 four in the morning once, right? Like it's really like, 288 00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:46.899 how do you sustain passion and perseverance for honestly years 289 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:51.629 or decades? Because I just don't think anything great ever 290 00:13:51.690 --> 00:13:55.909 happens overnight. And that, that's the emphasis in grit on stamina. 291 00:13:56.190 --> 00:13:59.409 And people want something to happen quickly. And grit is 292 00:13:59.470 --> 00:14:03.769 the opposite of that. It's recognizing that it takes long investments. 293 00:14:04.700 --> 00:14:07.779 Yeah. People aren't very good at waiting. We all know that, right? 294 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:10.740 Like none of us are, you know, if any of 295 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.639 us could have instant gratification compared to delayed gratification, we 296 00:14:14.659 --> 00:14:17.139 would all take instant gratification. I think if there were 297 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:20.879 a shortcut to, you know, world-class excellence, I would take 298 00:14:20.940 --> 00:14:21.320 it too. 299 00:14:22.460 --> 00:14:22.940 But yeah. 300 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.090 That's just so completely obvious when you put it that way, right? 301 00:14:27.169 --> 00:14:29.830 It is actually, there's a data set on about a 302 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:33.129 thousand four-year-olds, like all over the country where they were 303 00:14:33.370 --> 00:14:36.669 all given the choice between like two treats, say like, 304 00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:38.769 let's say marshmallows, because that was one of the. 305 00:14:39.009 --> 00:14:40.669 Two marshmallows later on. 306 00:14:41.009 --> 00:14:42.190 Is this the famous marshmallow experiment? 307 00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:43.029 It is, but here's the thing. 308 00:14:43.049 --> 00:14:44.690 Tell it, tell it. Okay, so a lot of people 309 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:47.889 saw this like on the Colbert Report and like, you know, 310 00:14:47.970 --> 00:14:50.580 it's kind of entered like Sesame Street's done stuff on it. 311 00:14:50.610 --> 00:14:52.980 So a lot of people have heard about the marshmallow test. 312 00:14:53.289 --> 00:14:55.279 The way the marshmallow test works is you get like 313 00:14:55.460 --> 00:14:59.120 usually around a four-year-old preschool and they're sitting at a 314 00:14:59.220 --> 00:15:01.690 table and And they're first given the selection of all 315 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:03.929 kinds of treats. Say they pick marshmallows as their favorite. 316 00:15:03.950 --> 00:15:05.490 You take away all the other treats and then you 317 00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:08.110 make two piles. Say you have two marshmallows on the right, 318 00:15:08.129 --> 00:15:10.230 you have one marshmallow on the left. And you just 319 00:15:10.330 --> 00:15:13.730 ask the little boy or girl, like, would you rather 320 00:15:13.789 --> 00:15:16.830 have two, but you have to wait, you know, till 321 00:15:16.850 --> 00:15:18.230 I come back in the room, I got to do something, 322 00:15:18.750 --> 00:15:22.429 or one right away. So it's two later or one now. 323 00:15:23.250 --> 00:15:26.700 And the test part is really like you see how 324 00:15:26.789 --> 00:15:29.639 long that four year old can, can really wait it 325 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:33.799 out versus just basically, you know, eat the first one. Right. 326 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:36.970 And then have, have one now. And here's the thing. 327 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:41.169 Everybody decides that they want to have two. You ask 328 00:15:41.190 --> 00:15:44.269 them like, do you want to have two later? Everybody says, 329 00:15:44.370 --> 00:15:46.950 I'll wait. I'll wait. I'm good. Like I'll definitely wait. 330 00:15:47.429 --> 00:15:49.250 And then the question is how long can you wait? 331 00:15:49.289 --> 00:15:51.029 So I think it's just interesting that we would all 332 00:15:51.090 --> 00:15:55.429 prefer to, you know, have more, even if there's a way, 333 00:15:55.450 --> 00:15:58.820 but I think there's a, um, you know, inability to 334 00:15:58.860 --> 00:15:59.539 sustain that. 335

00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:04.240 So I can offer a cosmic reflection on that. That's 336 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.600 a kid test, of course, but if you raise that 337 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:10.059 up to adult level, there's still that behavior manifested, maybe 338 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.980 not with marshmallows, but other treats. 339 00:16:12.039 --> 00:16:15.620 Oh, lots of other things that we have problems with. 340 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:19.679 Things that are so much better than marshmallows. 341 00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:21.879 Probably some of them are legal. 342 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:26.759 Very good point. Only some of which are legal. So 343 00:16:26.850 --> 00:16:30.220 I would say, biologically, when I think about it, there's 344 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:32.740 all these people who want to live forever, all right? 345 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:37.120 And I thought to myself, do I want to live forever? Well, 346 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:40.370 if I live forever, then I have no motivation to 347 00:16:40.429 --> 00:16:43.950 do anything today because I can always do it tomorrow. 348 00:16:43.970 --> 00:16:44.889 You can always procrastinate. 349 00:16:45.110 --> 00:16:48.490 Yeah, yeah. And even procrastinators can say, I'm going to. 350 00:16:50.149 --> 00:16:51.009 I'll get around to it. 351 00:16:51.289 --> 00:16:56.639 Yeah, I'll get around to procrastinating later. So if you recognize... 352 00:16:56.429 --> 00:16:58.730 And if you're not Shirley MacLaine who believes in multiple 353 00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:02.149 lives or whole religions, of course, have these foundations or 354 00:17:02.509 --> 00:17:05.980 not just whether you're reborn, but whether you are born 355 00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:10.599 on earth again, whether you're in Valhalla or heaven or 356 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:15.380 anywhere else. So if you see your life as just 357 00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:21.160 the days on this world, then, and you know you 358 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:26.119 are going to die, that creates a sense of, of 359 00:17:26.299 --> 00:17:31.960 urgency to how you spend your time. Not only, let 360 00:17:32.059 --> 00:17:34.579 me take another step higher. The number of people who 361 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:38.900 have ever been born is small compared to the total 362 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:43.400 genetic combinations that can make an actual human. And it 363 00:17:43.420 --> 00:17:48.039 will forever be a minuscule fraction of that tiny fraction. 364 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:54.359 So most people who could ever exist will never even 365 00:17:54.420 --> 00:18:02.730 be born. Right. So to quote Richard Dawkins, we, because 366 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:07.759 we die, are the lucky ones because we are alive 367 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:08.400 at all. 368 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:09.559 Yes. 369 00:18:09.619 --> 00:18:11.440 Exposed to non-existence. 370 00:18:11.460 --> 00:18:12.819 Exposed to non-existence. 371 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:13.160 Yeah. 372 00:18:13.339 --> 00:18:16.769 Never having existed. So when I think of what I'm 373 00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:21.150 going to do today, it is because I exist. I 374 00:18:21.210 --> 00:18:23.769 might not have ever existed and my days on this 375 00:18:23.869 --> 00:18:24.849 earth are limited. 376 00:18:24.869 --> 00:18:27.799 Right. Do you really think about that like on. 377 00:18:27.980 --> 00:18:30.750 A reasonably frequent basis? Not daily. Weekly. 378 00:18:30.769 --> 00:18:31.230 Weekly. 379 00:18:31.269 --> 00:18:33.410 That's interesting. 380 00:18:33.430 --> 00:18:35.589 He thinks about it so much that he's written a 381 00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:37.650 children's book called You're Gonna Die. 382 00:18:39.190 --> 00:18:39.990 You're all gonna die. 383 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.539 You're all gonna die. Now get something done. 384 00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:47.779 Do something. So for me, that can be a motivator 385 00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:53.690 for anyone who fully embraces and understands that state of truth. 386 00:18:54.569 --> 00:18:54.650 Yes. 387 00:18:54.670 --> 00:18:55.089 About the world. 388 00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:57.440 Yeah. And, and, and, and I do think you're right. 389 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.420 That kind of, um, you know, let's just talk about procrastination. Like, yeah, 390 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.000 I'll get to it. And people procrastinate in small ways. Like, yeah, they, 391 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.880 they should get around to something and they delay by 392 00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:08.839 a week, but you're right. Some people are delaying things 393 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.240 by like decades. Like, yeah, I'm going to get a 394 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:14.039 job that I really care about. Like, you know, at 395 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.640 some point and then, and then years go by, I think, 396 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:19.380 I think if you really thought you were only going 397 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:22.289 to live for one day, right. If today were the 398 00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:26.210 only day, then, uh, I mean, You know, that would 399 00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:28.690 create an urgency just to like, I don't know what 400 00:19:28.710 --> 00:19:30.529 that would create an urgency for. But yeah, no, I 401 00:19:30.549 --> 00:19:32.450 think having a sense of mortality. By the way, I 402 00:19:32.690 --> 00:19:36.339 think about my death a lot. And I think it's like. 403 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.279 Wait, Angela, you need to see a psychologist. 404 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:41.180 No, I think it's very healthy. I actually try to 405 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.750 remind other people of death like a lot, maybe not weekly. But, 406 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:47.970 you know, especially when I start like a new collaboration 407 00:19:48.069 --> 00:19:49.529 or if I meet somebody that I really want to 408 00:19:49.569 --> 00:19:52.460 work with. I'm like, all right, hi, my name is Angela. Like, 409 00:19:52.940 --> 00:19:55.240 here's why I'm

reaching out to you. You're going to die. 410 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:58.940 So am I very quickly. I mean, I'm not exactly 411 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:01.440 sure when we should work on this together. Like I 412 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.180 literally say that in opening emails, it doesn't always work, 413 00:20:04.339 --> 00:20:09.619 but isn't it true though? It is. I had been 414 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:14.359 to probably too many, you know, Zoom services, like memorial 415 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.720 services during this pandemic. And I was just at one 416 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:19.859 yesterday and it was a great life. It was the 417 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:23.349 guy who, the scientist behind the 10,000 hour rule, the 418 00:20:23.710 --> 00:20:26.890 deliberate practice. It was a beautiful like celebration, but he, 419 00:20:27.069 --> 00:20:29.950 you know, died in his very early seventies and it 420 00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:32.869 was very unexpected and sudden. And you could say like, 421 00:20:33.309 --> 00:20:36.059 it was tragic, but I remember when I, well, it 422 00:20:36.079 --> 00:20:39.180 was yesterday, but I was like, They're weeping with everyone else. 423 00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:42.680 And I was thinking, you know, whether it's 72 or 424 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:46.670 maybe 92 or whatever, it is a blink of an eye. 425 00:20:46.890 --> 00:20:50.269 And so I think actually keeping that in perspective, like, 426 00:20:50.789 --> 00:20:52.250 I don't know, I think it's very helpful. 427 00:20:52.269 --> 00:20:55.470 I'm glad we agree. And that's our collaborative project. 428 00:20:55.799 --> 00:20:56.869 That we just concluded on. 429 00:20:56.900 --> 00:20:58.420 Yeah, exactly, yeah. 430 00:20:58.460 --> 00:21:00.019 We've got to take our first break. There you go, 431 00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:02.779 ladies and gentlemen. This episode of Death Talk has been 432 00:21:02.859 --> 00:21:05.920 brought to you by Dr. Angela Duffworth and Dr. Neil 433 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:09.640 deGrasse Tyson. Very popular talk. We've got to take a 434 00:21:09.660 --> 00:21:13.019 quick break. When we come back, more on breaking down 435 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.539 the anatomy of grit and perseverance on Cosmic Queries Star Talk. 436 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:25.609 We're back. Star Talk, Cosmic Queries, grit and perseverance, determinations 437 00:21:26.140 --> 00:21:30.700 Angela Duckworth literally and figuratively wrote the book on this. 438 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.559 And just before the break, you mentioned that you attended 439 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.299 a memorial service by the guy who wrote about the 10,000 hours. 440 00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:39.200 Just remind us what the 10,000 hours is. 441 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:44.019 So there's an idea that to become a world-class expert 442 00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:51.369 at anything, chess, ballet, astrophysics, you need to put in, say, 10,000 hours. 443 00:21:51.569 --> 00:21:53.849 I mean, I say that

in air quotes. I'll unpack 444 00:21:53.890 --> 00:21:57.049 it in a second. 10,000 hours of practice. And that's, 445 00:21:57.309 --> 00:22:00.089 I think, almost become, you know, almost like part of 446 00:22:00.130 --> 00:22:03.579 common culture, right? That like the 10,000 hour rule is 447 00:22:03.619 --> 00:22:07.539 the rule of becoming great, is the journalist who wrote 448 00:22:07.579 --> 00:22:10.440 about it. But the scientist behind that research was named 449 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:14.539 Anders Ericsson. And he passed away and his memorial service 450 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:17.140 was yesterday. And I was a collaborator and a friend 451 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.309 of his. And I think one of the things that 452 00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:21.990 Anders would want everyone to know is that it does 453 00:22:22.049 --> 00:22:24.819 take thousands and thousands of of hours of practice to 454 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.940 become great. His own brother said during his memorial service 455 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:29.640 that if you added up the number of hours this 456 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.309 guy spent on the science of expertise, it easily would 457 00:22:33.349 --> 00:22:38.410 have exceeded 100,000 hours. But what Anders would really want. 458 00:22:38.329 --> 00:22:40.440 Everyone to know- But it's very meta to say, He 459 00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:43.799 spent at least 10,000 hours trying to prove that 10,000 460 00:22:43.799 --> 00:22:44.920 hours would make you an expert. 461 00:22:45.009 --> 00:22:48.049 It was so meta. I mean, actually, in his own family, 462 00:22:48.109 --> 00:22:50.430 but also among friends and colleagues, we used to just 463 00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:53.369 all joke that he was the world expert on world experts. 464 00:22:53.470 --> 00:22:57.450 I mean, super meta, right? And he actually did all 465 00:22:57.490 --> 00:23:00.210 the things that he studied. It was meta, meta, meta. 466 00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:02.190 But here's the thing that I think a lot of 467 00:23:02.210 --> 00:23:04.529 people don't appreciate, which is that it's the quality of 468 00:23:04.549 --> 00:23:08.670 the practice that really distinguishes experts. I mean, obviously, it's 469 00:23:08.690 --> 00:23:11.829 the quality and the quantity. But what experts do with 470 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:13.849 those hours is different from what other people do. 471 00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:17.410 So it's not just, let me get in the water 472 00:23:17.490 --> 00:23:21.049 and slap my hands to try to swim. Let me 473 00:23:21.269 --> 00:23:22.490 improve the stroke. 474 00:23:23.190 --> 00:23:23.329 Exactly. 475 00:23:23.349 --> 00:23:25.710 I think built into the concept of practice is you're 476 00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:28.349 trying to get better at it. You're not just doing it. 477 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:32.380 So it's 10,000 hours of improving yourself, not 10,000 hours 478 00:23:32.420 --> 00:23:33.269 of just doing it. 479 00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:36.200 OK, well, you guys have just hit upon a really 480 00:23:36.259 --> 00:23:39.640 great point. I'm going to interrupt and throw in two questions. 481 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.019 because they're so apropos to what you just said in 482 00:23:44.380 --> 00:23:50.609 a different way, but still. Kunal Kahana from Facebook says, 483 00:23:51.009 --> 00:23:56.430 does perseverance really lead to success? And when should a 484 00:23:57.410 --> 00:24:03.559 scientist slash person slash athlete Know when to quit. That's one. 485 00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:06.680 That's one. That's just one. 486 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:07.819 That was a long one. 487 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:08.619 That was a long one. 488 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:09.700 If you tell me the next one, I'm going to 489 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:10.539 forget the first one. 490 00:24:10.579 --> 00:24:12.700 No, you're not going to, because here's the, just remember, 491 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:14.859 when is it, when should I know when to quit? 492 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:18.799 When to quit. And then Nathan Warden, along the same lines, okay, 493 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:22.240 you guys can combine this. There's a saying, you can 494 00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:24.319 run a donkey around the track and train them harder 495 00:24:24.339 --> 00:24:26.859 than any racehorse that's ever been trained, but it'll never 496 00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:30.490 win the Kentucky Derby. Is there a limit to the 497 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:35.079 amount of success that we can expect from grit when competing? 498 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:37.339 So that goes to what you guys just finished saying 499 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.690 about how to train, how to practice. But then the 500 00:24:40.869 --> 00:24:44.049 second part of that is, OK, you're doing all the 501 00:24:44.109 --> 00:24:48.150 right things. Is there a point where you should say 502 00:24:48.579 --> 00:24:50.720 enough is enough? I'm going to quit. 503 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:53.089 Chuck, that donkey would win the Kentucky Derby. 504 00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:53.880 Of donkeys. 505 00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:55.150 Of donkeys, yeah. 506 00:24:55.190 --> 00:24:56.349 Of donkeys. 507 00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:58.509 And nobody wants that. 508 00:24:58.829 --> 00:25:01.890 That is not making it onto ESPN. 509 00:25:01.970 --> 00:25:06.299 Nobody wants to be the fastest ass on the court. 510 00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:10.279 Okay, there are worse things that you could be, but 511 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:11.160 definitely not. 512 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:12.460 But the fastest burrow. 513 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.099 Okay, so are you guys watching? You already watched The 514 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:18.049 Last Dance, right? 515 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:20.160 Oh, the Michael Jordan thing. 516 00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:22.369 Yeah. Yeah. I've seen four episodes. 517 00:25:22.470 --> 00:25:24.599 Yeah. Did you stop? Are you not going to watch 518 00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:25.089 the rest

of it? 519 00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:26.980 Angela, I'm a busy man, okay? You're like, come on. 520 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:28.259 You don't have. 521 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:30.970 To like shame me. Priorities here. 522 00:25:31.029 --> 00:25:31.789 You don't have to like. 523 00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:34.289 I'm only on episode two. I'm not going to shame you. 524 00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:36.910 I'm only on episode two. Like binge shame me for 525 00:25:36.950 --> 00:25:38.430 seeing only four out. 526 00:25:38.349 --> 00:25:40.269 Of eight episodes. Well, I'm having a hard time delaying 527 00:25:40.289 --> 00:25:42.569 gratification because every time I start watching it, all I 528 00:25:42.589 --> 00:25:44.269 want to do is just watch it all the way through. 529 00:25:44.369 --> 00:25:47.210 So actually it's, okay. Anyway, the reason I bring it 530 00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:50.390 up is because people ask the question, if I trained 531 00:25:50.450 --> 00:25:53.509 for 10 or 20,000 hours, like, could I ever be 532 00:25:53.549 --> 00:25:54.250 Michael Jordan? 533 00:25:54.630 --> 00:25:54.849 Right. 534 00:25:54.890 --> 00:25:57.210 And I think for most people, it doesn't take much 535 00:25:57.349 --> 00:26:00.109 thinking to think like, nope, would definitely not be Michael Jordan, 536 00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:01.829 even if I trained for a hundred thousand hours. 537 00:26:01.910 --> 00:26:02.069 Right. 538 00:26:02.130 --> 00:26:05.160 So I, I disagreed a little bit with Anders on 539 00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:09.440 this and we had many spirited conversations, but I do 540 00:26:09.500 --> 00:26:15.930 believe that there are abilities that that are not equally 541 00:26:15.970 --> 00:26:19.210 distributed between all of us. Anybody could be Michael Phelps, 542 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:21.839 anybody could be Katie Ledecky, anybody could be fill in 543 00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:24.880 the blank. I think Anders may have been a little 544 00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:28.069 more skeptical that there really are things as talents that 545 00:26:28.509 --> 00:26:30.809 really limit what we can do. I think what we 546 00:26:30.849 --> 00:26:34.230 agreed on is that people are so far away from 547 00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:37.309 their potential that it's just like this hypothetical that they 548 00:26:37.329 --> 00:26:40.539 throw out. They're like, well, what if I really worked 549 00:26:40.579 --> 00:26:44.799 really hard? But I think if you're not even approaching 550 00:26:44.859 --> 00:26:49.039 that hypothetical limit in your actual life, it's a kind 551 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:50.500 of silly almost like to ask. 552 00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.240 So Angela, not to put words in your mouth, but 553 00:26:52.940 --> 00:26:56.269 are you saying, and if you are, I agree entirely, 554 00:26:56.630 --> 00:27:02.190 that it's a false comparison To say, if I work 555 00:27:02.230 --> 00:27:03.849 hard at basketball, will I ever be as good as 556 00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:06.190 Michael Jordan? What they should be asking is, if I 557 00:27:06.230 --> 00:27:09.619 work harder than I am at any of these other 558 00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:12.470 hundred things, will I get much, much better at it? 559 00:27:12.759 --> 00:27:14.420 Yes, then I was, right? 560 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:14.940 Yes. 561 00:27:15.460 --> 00:27:19.569 Because the comparison between you and other people, which is, 562 00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:21.920 by the way, totally natural, we all do it, is 563 00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:25.609 not as useful as the comparison of you and yourself, right? 564 00:27:25.630 --> 00:27:26.490 To what you could be. 565 00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:29.910 To what you could be, to what you want to be, 566 00:27:29.990 --> 00:27:32.509 to what you were, to today, to tomorrow. All those 567 00:27:32.569 --> 00:27:35.309 comparisons I think are very useful. The other ones are 568 00:27:35.569 --> 00:27:36.190 less useful. 569 00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:37.259 Very good. 570 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:38.640 I think. Okay. 571 00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:39.539 So when should you give up? 572 00:27:39.559 --> 00:27:45.319 Oh, yeah. The quick question. I think there are occasions 573 00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.380 where we should give up. The times that we should 574 00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:51.599 give up are when there's something better you can do. Right. 575 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.359 I mean, it's kind of that simple. In economics, they 576 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:55.660 call it like opportunity cost. 577 00:27:55.809 --> 00:27:56.009 Right. 578 00:27:56.029 --> 00:27:57.369 Like when the opportunity costs. 579 00:27:57.390 --> 00:27:57.549 Right. 580 00:27:57.769 --> 00:27:59.529 So should I be doing this podcast anymore? I was like, 581 00:27:59.549 --> 00:28:02.730 I don't know. Maybe there's something better you could do. Right. 582 00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:07.069 I think that's giving up, you know, on a good day. Right. 583 00:28:07.089 --> 00:28:08.450 It's like, you know, I've been thinking about it. 584 00:28:08.789 --> 00:28:11.369 So I got one. I got one, Angela. So I 585 00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:15.910 have a cameo in Ice Age 5. 586 00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:17.779 What animal are you? Okay. 587 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:18.880 I'm a weasel. 588 00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:19.980 So now. 589 00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:26.359 The critics said, of Ice Age 5, by the way, 590 00:28:26.380 --> 00:28:27.380 you didn't know there were four of them. 591 00:28:28.339 --> 00:28:30.039 Yeah, my kids are a little too old for that. 592 00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:31.799 Neither did I know that there were four when I 593 00:28:31.819 --> 00:28:35.900 read that. So one of the critics said, Ice Age 594 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:39.109 5 makes it clear that this franchise should have gone 595 00:28:39.150 --> 00:28:40.349 extinct a long time ago. 596 00:28:40.410 --> 00:28:42.950 That's a good line. I love that. 597 00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:45.269 That was telling them they should quit.

They haven't made 598 00:28:45.309 --> 00:28:45.910 another one since. 599 00:28:46.390 --> 00:28:46.750 Oh, maybe. 600 00:28:46.769 --> 00:28:48.690 Yeah. Maybe the critic finally got to them. I mean, look, 601 00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:51.049 there are times where you're like, instead of making Ice 602 00:28:51.089 --> 00:28:53.529 Age six, like maybe there's something better we could do. 603 00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:53.950 Right. 604 00:28:54.009 --> 00:28:56.789 Like that really is always the rational answer. The thing 605 00:28:56.809 --> 00:29:00.380 that I also study, though, is like giving up too early. 606 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:02.680 You know, there are people who like, you know, that 607 00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.880 initial discouragement. Right. You know, one thing that happens in 608 00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:09.000 life and you guys are both successful that, you know. 609 00:29:09.430 --> 00:29:11.869 That was flattery, but it was sincere. But, you know, 610 00:29:12.210 --> 00:29:15.390 you get into like bigger and bigger ponds, right? And 611 00:29:15.410 --> 00:29:17.839 like suddenly you're not the biggest fish in the pond anymore. 612 00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:19.619 You're in a much bigger pond. That's what it means 613 00:29:19.660 --> 00:29:21.940 to be successful is to move up like that. That 614 00:29:22.099 --> 00:29:25.059 initial drop in your ego, it almost feels like the 615 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.609 bottom of your stomach falls. It's like, oh, wait, I'm 616 00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:30.430 not the special shiny one. I think a lot of 617 00:29:30.450 --> 00:29:33.130 people quit then, right? And like, I think that's too 618 00:29:33.190 --> 00:29:35.910 early to quit. Like you just transition into, you know, 619 00:29:35.970 --> 00:29:38.309 West Point, which I studied for, you know, more than 620 00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:40.519 a decade and that initial kind of like you are 621 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.700 not number one you're not even number two half the 622 00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:45.920 people are below average right can you can you not. 623 00:29:45.819 --> 00:29:47.619 Quit no everyone's above average Angela. 624 00:29:48.140 --> 00:29:51.460 That's Lake Wobegon that's not uh that's not West Point 625 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:55.240 so so I think you I think there are times 626 00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:56.900 you should quit you should quit when there's something better 627 00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:58.710 you can do but I don't always think that we're 628 00:29:58.730 --> 00:30:02.779 an emotionally like a clear-eyed frame of mind to make 629 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:06.500 those decisions. And so I also think we should be 630 00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:07.759 careful not to quit too early. 631 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:08.640 Good one. 632 00:30:08.660 --> 00:30:13.440 You know, that's great. And I think your economic analogy 633 00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:19.460 of opportunity cost is really very useful because when the 634 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:24.789 cost of doing something greatly outweighs the benefits gleaned from 635 00:30:24.910 --> 00:30:25.400 doing it. 636 00:30:25.529 --> 00:30:26.329 Or the returns on it. 637 00:30:26.430 --> 00:30:30.230 Or the returns. It's It's no longer enjoyable. And so 638 00:30:30.289 --> 00:30:32.910 what you've done is taken that from a numbers standpoint 639 00:30:32.950 --> 00:30:36.769 and put it into human terms. Basically, look, if this 640 00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:40.089 is like not fun and you're not getting anything out 641 00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:42.319 of it and you're not getting any better and you're 642 00:30:42.430 --> 00:30:43.240 never going to be what. 643 00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:44.160 It is time. 644 00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:45.079 Maybe it's time. 645 00:30:45.819 --> 00:30:46.660 Yeah. 646 00:30:46.940 --> 00:30:49.119 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly what it comes down to. 647 00:30:49.710 --> 00:30:50.630 All right. Awesome. 648 00:30:50.670 --> 00:30:52.109 Give me some more. All right. Here we go. 649 00:30:52.170 --> 00:30:56.430 This is Eric Varga from Facebook. And Eric says, hello, Dr. 650 00:30:56.490 --> 00:31:00.970 Tyson and Dr. Duckworth. I am a middle grade science 651 00:31:01.029 --> 00:31:02.569 and social studies teacher. 652 00:31:03.769 --> 00:31:04.529 Congratulations. 653 00:31:04.710 --> 00:31:05.119 Good for you. 654 00:31:05.130 --> 00:31:05.650 Definitely. 655 00:31:05.990 --> 00:31:09.680 One of the greatest issues facing our education system is 656 00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:14.099 the stigma surrounding failure and intelligence. Every year, I and 657 00:31:14.140 --> 00:31:18.380 my colleagues have students that help that we help overcome 658 00:31:18.619 --> 00:31:23.319 learned helplessness. What are some of the best practices that 659 00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:27.609 teachers and school systems can implement that could help students 660 00:31:27.720 --> 00:31:34.009 achieve success beyond the framework of standardized test? Thank you 661 00:31:34.069 --> 00:31:34.549 so much. 662 00:31:34.970 --> 00:31:38.269 So, Angela, this sounds like it's right down the center 663 00:31:38.309 --> 00:31:43.410 line of your project for which you're CEO of character building. 664 00:31:43.670 --> 00:31:47.960 I mean, what's the term Chuckie used? There's a term there. 665 00:31:47.980 --> 00:31:49.140 Growth mindset? 666 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:53.940 He said that the stigma surrounding failure and intelligence and 667 00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:55.420 learned helplessness is what. 668 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.220 He helps overcome. Learned helplessness. Angela, what is learned helplessness? 669 00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.960 Yeah, I'll zone in on that. I'll zoom in. I 670 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:03.950 guess I'll zoom in on that. So one of the 671 00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:09.190 scientific advisors to Character Lab, this nonprofit I help run, 672 00:32:09.309 --> 00:32:12.170 is Marty Seligman. And he coined the

term learned helplessness 673 00:32:12.529 --> 00:32:16.130 about 50 years ago. So Marty is a psychologist. who 674 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:19.619 was at the time he was studying dogs and he 675 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.500 was doing these random assignment experiments where, for example, some 676 00:32:23.539 --> 00:32:28.140 dogs got painful electric shocks and they had a harness, 677 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.230 but they had a button in front, like a panel 678 00:32:30.589 --> 00:32:33.569 that if they leaned forward far enough, their button would 679 00:32:33.609 --> 00:32:35.890 touch the panel and then the panel would just like 680 00:32:36.009 --> 00:32:38.410 terminate the shock. So you couldn't control that the shocks 681 00:32:38.430 --> 00:32:40.789 were going to start, but you could end them. Right. 682 00:32:40.829 --> 00:32:42.869 So that's a group of dogs. Then there was another 683 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:43.230 group of dogs. 684 00:32:43.250 --> 00:32:44.529 So this is 50 years ago when you could do 685 00:32:44.589 --> 00:32:45.269 experiments like that. 686 00:32:45.289 --> 00:32:47.450 You know, he's a total dog lover. I have to say, 687 00:32:47.470 --> 00:32:50.640 there's like, I can't even like explain these studies. 688 00:32:50.660 --> 00:32:52.460 Pita Pita wasn't invented yet. 689 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.380 But it was okay because they got a treat. 690 00:32:56.380 --> 00:32:58.160 I don't even know if they got treats, to be 691 00:32:58.180 --> 00:32:58.779 totally honest. 692 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.859 I'm pretty sure they didn't. That would confuse the actual experiment. 693 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:04.869 Yeah, exactly. They'd be like, we can't do that. You know, 694 00:33:04.930 --> 00:33:06.750 Marty would point out, by the way, that these were 695 00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:10.950 not dogs. They were just painful. So anyway, I don't 696 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:12.890 know if that makes it feel any better. 697 00:33:14.250 --> 00:33:17.650 You're innocent, thousand-volt shock. That's all. 698 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.009 Yeah, he might also point out that lots of people 699 00:33:20.069 --> 00:33:23.150 are doing these studies. But anyway, these dogs. So the 700 00:33:23.190 --> 00:33:25.539 point is that these dogs– there's another group of dogs 701 00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:28.380 that are what's called yoked to the first group of dogs. 702 00:33:28.420 --> 00:33:31.240 And that means that they are experiencing the same pattern 703 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:33.539 of shocks, so the same schedule. So when shock goes 704 00:33:33.700 --> 00:33:35.740 on in one cage, it goes on the other. Then 705 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.380 when one dog with the harness and the button turns 706 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:40.829 it off, that other dog is sitting in another cage, 707 00:33:40.890 --> 00:33:42.390 can't see the first dog, but like all of a 708 00:33:42.410 --> 00:33:44.130 sudden the shock goes off. So if you're in that 709 00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:46.549 second group, all you experience is like shock comes on, 710 00:33:46.609 --> 00:33:49.430 shock goes off, shock comes on, shock goes off. You 711 00:33:49.450 --> 00:33:53.079 have no control. And what Marty discovered is that. The 712 00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:56.819 dogs in the cages that had no control over even 713 00:33:56.900 --> 00:33:59.200 terminating the shock, right? They have no control over anything. 714 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.529 Just like bad stuff happens seemingly at random. They developed 715 00:34:02.789 --> 00:34:06.210 learned helplessness. They had a kind of basically it was 716 00:34:06.230 --> 00:34:09.670 like dog depression, right? Like they weren't eating right. They 717 00:34:09.710 --> 00:34:12.719 weren't sleeping right. And the most important thing was when 718 00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:16.260 you put the dog that just has had this experience 719 00:34:16.340 --> 00:34:18.539 of like things happen to you, you can't control them. 720 00:34:18.989 --> 00:34:21.090 You give them another situation. You put them in a 721 00:34:21.130 --> 00:34:24.030 different cage and you allow them to actually, you know, 722 00:34:24.130 --> 00:34:27.190 escape the shock because, you know, you unharness them. They 723 00:34:27.329 --> 00:34:29.630 they kind of like lie down and they don't they 724 00:34:29.650 --> 00:34:33.179 don't try. And that was learned helplessness. You learn that 725 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.260 you're helpless. And I think a lot of teachers like 726 00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:39.639 middle school teachers, they see this happening, you know, not 727 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:42.800 with electric shocks, but they see kids fail things. And 728 00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:45.800 then for the kids, they learn that they can't do anything. 729 00:34:45.820 --> 00:34:48.130 They're like, look, I like I can't do math. I'm 730 00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:50.750 not like a math person. It's just like it's just impossible. 731 00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:53.579 Chuck, Chuck, it's clear Angela's making the case for electric 732 00:34:53.599 --> 00:34:56.019 shocks in elementary school. 733 00:34:56.039 --> 00:34:58.889 Don't say that. Which, by the way, I am 100% 734 00:34:58.889 --> 00:34:59.610 for it. 735 00:34:59.949 --> 00:35:02.349 She just said that. Chuck, Chuck, I heard her say that. 736 00:35:02.469 --> 00:35:03.510 I'm 100% about it. 737 00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:05.989 This is where rumors get started. 738 00:35:06.090 --> 00:35:07.349 It is about time. 739 00:35:09.449 --> 00:35:11.570 You guys have just arranged this whole episode so that 740 00:35:11.670 --> 00:35:14.690 you can tee up Chuck for that layup. 741 00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:17.250 Where do we get the vest? That's what I want. 742 00:35:18.630 --> 00:35:19.969 You want to order them immediately. 743 00:35:20.289 --> 00:35:22.889 But no, that's– But it means such a thing exists. 744 00:35:22.989 --> 00:35:23.210 Yeah. 745 00:35:23.250 -->

00:35:23.820 And that's tragic. 746 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:25.519 Yeah. I mean, have you guys ever felt that way 747 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.019 about anything? Or maybe not because maybe you're more like 748 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:32.280 the resilient, you know, like individuals that Marty has studied. 749 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:34.840 Like do you identify at all with that story? Are 750 00:35:34.860 --> 00:35:36.619 you kind of like, oh, yeah, I kind of felt 751 00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:38.010 like that once or not really? 752 00:35:38.070 --> 00:35:42.230 I feel helpless on Twitter. Just learned helplessness. 753 00:35:42.769 --> 00:35:44.989 It's because bad things happen and you have no control 754 00:35:45.030 --> 00:35:45.590 over them. 755 00:35:45.710 --> 00:35:46.630 Say what they want. 756 00:35:46.769 --> 00:35:49.949 I think, I think it's very interesting that the way 757 00:35:50.230 --> 00:35:54.309 it's the, the way the experiment is presented, you know, 758 00:35:55.489 --> 00:36:00.420 it's persistent and pervasive. I think everybody has that. 759 00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:03.079 You know about Marty's research. If you're, if you're, if you're, 760 00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:07.260 you're using Marty's words, right. Like that, like when adversity 761 00:36:07.300 --> 00:36:10.059 happens and you perceive it to be persistent, like, this 762 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:12.940 is not ending and pervasive. It's like, it's like, it, 763 00:36:13.510 --> 00:36:15.590 it seems like everything in your life is going wrong. 764 00:36:16.010 --> 00:36:18.710 I mean, and those are really like the cognitive hallmarks 765 00:36:18.750 --> 00:36:22.989 of depression, right? You're like, I can't do anything. It's everywhere. 766 00:36:23.070 --> 00:36:24.449 It's everything. It's not going to end. 767 00:36:25.349 --> 00:36:28.730 Because I think we all have that experience in some way, 768 00:36:29.289 --> 00:36:33.840 but what gives us the ability to take charge or 769 00:36:33.889 --> 00:36:37.489 to say that we will change is that, um, w 770 00:36:37.730 --> 00:36:43.329 we don't have the overwhelming depression, uh, we're not bearing that. 771 00:36:43.369 --> 00:36:46.380 Like there's nothing I can do. We actually, because, and 772 00:36:46.510 --> 00:36:48.940 also we've also had successes in the past. 773 00:36:49.579 --> 00:36:52.780 I think, I think that is really, truly like, you know, 774 00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:57.420 I don't want to oversimplify things, but like small mastery experiences, 775 00:36:57.460 --> 00:37:00.190 like small wins. I mean, just to answer this eighth 776 00:37:00.230 --> 00:37:04.090 grade teacher's you know, question a little more directly. Like, 777 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:06.469 you know, I took a little bit of the long 778 00:37:06.530 --> 00:37:09.570 route getting there. But I really do think you have 779 00:37:09.610 --> 00:37:13.590 to engineer like small wins for young people so that. 780 00:37:13.730 --> 00:37:16.030 But Angela, they've already done that and it's handing out 781 00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:17.139 trophies for everything. 782 00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.679 I am not a big fan of like participant trophies. 783 00:37:21.820 --> 00:37:24.760 But this is what it is. There are no losers. 784 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.119 Everyone is a winner. 785 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:28.449 I can guess how you feel about that. 786 00:37:28.969 --> 00:37:32.460 Oh, this is awesome. You guys are... Are you guys maybe... No, 787 00:37:32.500 --> 00:37:35.059 we're agreeing. No, no, no. I'm not talking about... I 788 00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:37.599 think you're telepathically connected to these questions. 789 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:39.099 Oh, is that the next thing? 790 00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:42.070 Let's move into the next question. 791 00:37:42.150 --> 00:37:44.210 Chuck, we'll do exactly that when we come back for 792 00:37:44.230 --> 00:37:47.889 the third and final segment of StarTalk Cosmic Queries. The 793 00:37:47.949 --> 00:37:54.309 Grit Edition. When we return. We're back. StarTalk Cosmic Queries. 794 00:37:54.349 --> 00:37:59.070 The Grit Edition. with Angela Duckworth, one of the world's experts. 795 00:37:59.170 --> 00:38:01.039 I'm going to say the world's expert. Would you agree, Chuck? 796 00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:02.019 I would indeed. 797 00:38:02.340 --> 00:38:05.179 Well, not on everything, but maybe on grit. 798 00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.099 On grit. On grit. 799 00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:07.559 Maybe. 800 00:38:07.980 --> 00:38:10.300 So what do you do? Just before the break, you 801 00:38:10.340 --> 00:38:17.510 mentioned that small successes can help prevent you from falling 802 00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:20.530 into some kind of achievement funk where you might think 803 00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:23.150 that you will never achieve. But in the limit of that, 804 00:38:23.210 --> 00:38:28.300 you're getting trophies and medals and You're getting complimented under 805 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:32.840 circumstances that in a previous generation would have never been warranted. So, Chuck, 806 00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:35.090 you had a question that was exactly that. Yes. What 807 00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:36.090 was the question? 808 00:38:36.190 --> 00:38:46.510 You guys really teed up. Miriam Masarykova says, wants to 809 00:38:46.670 --> 00:38:48.050 know this. Hey, Dr. Tyson. 810 00:38:48.110 --> 00:38:48.590 Hey, Dr. 811 00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:53.750 Duckworth. I'm wondering if there is any relationship between grit 812 00:38:54.030 --> 00:39:02.159 and self-esteem. So now this goes to small wins, participation trophies. And, 813 00:39:02.539 --> 00:39:06.099 you know, is there something to do with how you 814 00:39:06.260 --> 00:39:10.840 feel about yourself that propels you to keep going? All right. 815 00:39:10.909 --> 00:39:14.510 So here's the answer. I think grit is more related 816 00:39:14.550 --> 00:39:18.210 to self-efficacy than self-esteem. And

I think this is the 817 00:39:18.230 --> 00:39:21.380 difference between getting participant trophies for being like eighth out 818 00:39:21.389 --> 00:39:23.980 of eighth or like anything you do, like, you know, 819 00:39:24.019 --> 00:39:26.199 your parents give you a standing ovation. I don't believe 820 00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:29.150 in any of that. You know, that is all about like. 821 00:39:29.429 --> 00:39:29.969 Let's make this work. 822 00:39:30.110 --> 00:39:32.400 Has- Wait, did you have kids? I do. I have 823 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:35.340 a 19 year old, well, almost 19 and a, let's 824 00:39:35.360 --> 00:39:36.139 just say 18 and 17. 825 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.900 So did you give them standing ovations for their school play? 826 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:41.739 I am pretty sure that if my girls came in here, 827 00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:43.980 like they would tell you that I was the opposite 828 00:39:44.019 --> 00:39:47.159 of the parent who was like, Everything is great. 829 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:48.159 You're perfect. 830 00:39:48.460 --> 00:39:52.400 That's like what grandparents do. But I did actually experience 831 00:39:52.460 --> 00:39:55.619 this with them because they would also be living American 832 00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:59.500 life and there would be eighth place ribbons for being 833 00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:02.539 eighth out of eighth, which I didn't think was necessary 834 00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.550 or helpful. But I think the difference is this. When 835 00:40:06.590 --> 00:40:09.389 I say small wins, I'm not saying praise your kid 836 00:40:09.429 --> 00:40:11.190 for drinking their orange juice in the morning. What I'm 837 00:40:11.230 --> 00:40:14.050 saying is if you have a kid who's struggling, let's 838 00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:17.500 say with math or you know, foul shots, whatever it 839 00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:19.920 is they're struggling. You know, a great parent and a 840 00:40:19.980 --> 00:40:21.659 great coach and a great teacher, they all do the 841 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:24.199 same thing, which is they figure out what is a 842 00:40:24.300 --> 00:40:26.980 challenge that is smaller than the one that this kid 843 00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:31.400 consistently fails, that is a stretch, but that they're likely 844 00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:33.179 to be able to master with some support. And there 845 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:37.380 was this Russian psychologist named Vygotsky who thought that that 846 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:41.010 was basically the recipe for development through childhood, which is 847 00:40:41.050 --> 00:40:43.449 that You're a little kid. You're three years old. You 848 00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:46.469 can't reach something. But with a little bit of assistance, 849 00:40:46.489 --> 00:40:48.590 you might be able to reach just this much higher. 850 00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:51.340 And that's the thing that you need to do. You 851 00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.360 have to like break down things that students are not 852 00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.519 doing well consistently into smaller, more manageable parts. 853 00:40:58.739 --> 00:41:00.900 This means as a teacher or as a coach, you 854 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:02.639 actually have to get to know your students. 855 00:41:03.260 --> 00:41:04.539 It's a lot of work, by the way. 856 00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:07.440 You have to work for that. Angela, be reasonable. 857 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.409 There was this like– I mean, yeah, I know. This 858 00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:10.949 is a lot of work. 859 00:41:11.710 --> 00:41:13.250 The next thing you'll be telling me is that I 860 00:41:13.269 --> 00:41:15.469 need to parent my children instead of just letting the 861 00:41:15.530 --> 00:41:16.550 tablet do it. 862 00:41:17.329 --> 00:41:19.829 I know, right? It's starting to be unreasonable, right? 863 00:41:19.909 --> 00:41:21.010 Oh, yeah. Don't be unreasonable. 864 00:41:21.329 --> 00:41:22.650 I mean, it's not only a lot of work. I 865 00:41:22.670 --> 00:41:24.230 have to say it takes a lot of skill. I 866 00:41:24.230 --> 00:41:32.050 remember listening to this interview with a. U.S. Olympic gymnastic coach, right? 867 00:41:32.070 --> 00:41:33.690 And I'm sorry that I can't remember the name. It 868 00:41:34.050 --> 00:41:38.969 wasn't like Bella Carolli or anything. But the interviewer said, 869 00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:43.920 what is the secret to training these athletes to Olympic 870 00:41:43.940 --> 00:41:46.099 gold medals? And they were like, the secret to everything 871 00:41:46.239 --> 00:41:48.300 is to be able to break things down and then 872 00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:50.179 break them down again and then break them down again 873 00:41:50.260 --> 00:41:55.559 so that it's tractable. And I think that will lead 874 00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:58.730 to self-efficacy, which is the belief that you can do 875 00:41:58.789 --> 00:42:02.119 something if you try. as opposed to self-esteem, which is 876 00:42:02.179 --> 00:42:05.659 that you are just great. And I think that's. 877 00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:06.440 A big difference. Very important. 878 00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:07.139 Excellent. 879 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:08.840 Excellent. Excellent. 880 00:42:09.099 --> 00:42:11.949 Well, I've got to tell you, I just wish Angela 881 00:42:11.969 --> 00:42:14.570 was like every guest that we ever have, because every 882 00:42:14.590 --> 00:42:17.969 time you say something, it leads to another question, which 883 00:42:17.989 --> 00:42:18.809 means I don't have to go searching. 884 00:42:18.829 --> 00:42:20.369 No one's ever going to believe that I don't actually 885 00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:21.030 know these questions. 886 00:42:21.110 --> 00:42:23.050 I know. It's amazing. It's amazing. 887 00:42:23.170 --> 00:42:23.690 I love it. 888 00:42:23.690 --> 00:42:28.050 All right. So Cara Clay from Facebook says, what does 889 00:42:28.070 --> 00:42:34.980 the science say about grit? in different generations. Popular

opinions 890 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.880 suggest that young people, whether we define them as millennials 891 00:42:38.940 --> 00:42:41.510 or Gen Z or even younger, lack the resilience of 892 00:42:41.739 --> 00:42:44.110 older generations. But is it really true? 893 00:42:44.130 --> 00:42:44.949 And if so- That's right. 894 00:42:44.969 --> 00:42:46.769 They don't make them the way they used to. 895 00:42:48.030 --> 00:42:49.230 And if so- Get off my lawn. 896 00:42:49.250 --> 00:42:50.230 I'm not old enough to say that. 897 00:42:50.250 --> 00:42:51.949 Get off my lawn. I mean, you are old enough 898 00:42:51.969 --> 00:42:52.889 to say that. 899 00:42:53.010 --> 00:42:54.110 I'm older. Get off my lawn. 900 00:42:54.130 --> 00:42:55.849 Yeah, I'm probably old enough to say that. 901 00:42:55.869 --> 00:42:56.630 Back in my day. 902 00:42:57.909 --> 00:43:01.409 Is it because society is changing? Or is it because 903 00:43:01.610 --> 00:43:07.309 grit is developed and fine-tuned over one's lifetime and therefore 904 00:43:07.369 --> 00:43:11.389 younger people will always appear to be less resilient regardless 905 00:43:11.929 --> 00:43:14.429 of the generational identity? 906 00:43:14.449 --> 00:43:16.210 Right, so that would be a delusion of older people 907 00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:19.840 that they had grit when the younger generation doesn't. So Angela, 908 00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:20.219 what is it? 909 00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:23.539 And by the way, it's Dr. Cara Blakely from Ohio 910 00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:24.260 who goes by Cara. 911 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:26.380 I was going to say Dr. Blakely. This is a 912 00:43:26.360 --> 00:43:28.599 10 out of 10 question. I was like, they should 913 00:43:28.639 --> 00:43:31.630 just get a little prize for having such a sophisticated, 914 00:43:31.650 --> 00:43:34.889 thoughtful question, which almost answers itself, right? Because it says, look, 915 00:43:34.909 --> 00:43:36.230 there's two possibilities, right? 916 00:43:36.289 --> 00:43:37.079 Right. If you grew up in the 50s. 917 00:43:38.019 --> 00:43:41.510 You know, culturally, you know, maybe you're different, right. Then 918 00:43:41.530 --> 00:43:45.130 somebody who grew up in, you know, the millenniums, the millennials, right. But, 919 00:43:45.429 --> 00:43:48.010 but here's the answer. The short answer is nobody knows 920 00:43:48.110 --> 00:43:50.050 because I don't have a time machine and I, I 921 00:43:50.449 --> 00:43:53.190 can't go back and measure these generations of people who 922 00:43:53.210 --> 00:43:55.840 came before us. That's a really short answer. I don't know. Right. 923 00:43:56.139 --> 00:43:59.840 But the longer answer is that, um, it's, it's, it's 924 00:44:00.340 --> 00:44:04.340 scientists are debating like how much of like people's personalities 925 00:44:04.460 --> 00:44:06.829 is generational and right? So there is this idea of 926 00:44:06.869 --> 00:44:12.130 generation me, like narcissistic, you know, inflated

self-esteem, etc. But 927 00:44:12.150 --> 00:44:14.489 there are scientists who are on both sides of this debate. 928 00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:20.460 And they publish papers saying their own sides. My guess is, though, 929 00:44:20.500 --> 00:44:24.019 in terms of this, you know, what's the ratio, say 930 00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:26.280 there are generational changes, which I just told you, like, 931 00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:28.000 I can't go back in time and measure, but let's 932 00:44:28.039 --> 00:44:31.550 assume that there are. My guess is that more of 933 00:44:31.619 --> 00:44:35.889 it is from maturation than from you know, like the 934 00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:38.769 decade that you were born in. And it is really 935 00:44:38.849 --> 00:44:41.250 hard to be 50, which is how old I am. 936 00:44:41.610 --> 00:44:43.840 And like, look at a 20 year old. And it's 937 00:44:43.969 --> 00:44:46.519 really hard to remember what I was like when I 938 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:49.639 was 20. So, so often we're like, God, what's wrong 939 00:44:49.659 --> 00:44:52.139 with you? You know, you grew up in the wrong generation, 940 00:44:52.179 --> 00:44:55.119 but really they're just 20. They're like literally half your age, 941 00:44:55.550 --> 00:44:56.670 less than half your age. 942 00:44:57.269 --> 00:45:00.800 Right, right. But it is funny. I remember thinking when 943 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:03.340 I was 21, yeah, I was badass. And now I 944 00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.179 look back and I say, I didn't know shit about anything. 945 00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:07.219 Right? I mean, like most of us were just total 946 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.139 idiots when we were younger, but we forget. 947 00:45:10.219 --> 00:45:13.039 No, I think you're right. Well, it's a fantastic question, 948 00:45:13.079 --> 00:45:13.960 I have to tell you. 949 00:45:14.119 --> 00:45:14.719 I know. 950 00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:16.510 I would like to just put a little gold star 951 00:45:16.570 --> 00:45:17.329 next to that question. 952 00:45:17.349 --> 00:45:19.909 Thank you, Cara Clay or Dr. 953 00:45:19.929 --> 00:45:22.489 Lee. And Cara, with that gold star, you'll do anything. 954 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:23.619 Even better next time. 955 00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:25.840 Yes, exactly. 956 00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:28.300 You've been encouraged to take that little increment. 957 00:45:28.340 --> 00:45:30.500 Another step. We want to see an even more sophisticated 958 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:31.159 question next time. 959 00:45:31.300 --> 00:45:31.980 Absolutely. 960 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:36.110 All right, let's move on to Ursula Lawrence. Did either 961 00:45:36.150 --> 00:45:39.449 of you ever learn to grit it out as a child, 962 00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:42.969 or did that come later on? Now, I ask this 963 00:45:43.289 --> 00:45:51.050 for selfish reasons. One, I grew up under... The auspices 964 00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:52.969 of tough it out. 965 00:45:53.469 --> 00:45:55.530 Wait, you're not speaking personally. 966 00:45:55.590 --> 00:45:58.030 Is that you or the person asking? 967 00:45:58.050 --> 00:45:59.030 This is me personally. 968 00:45:59.050 --> 00:46:01.829 This is why I'm asking Ursula's question because I want 969 00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:04.429 to know if my parents were bad parents and am 970 00:46:04.550 --> 00:46:07.349 I a bad parent? Because I was raised that way, 971 00:46:07.369 --> 00:46:10.849 I am a tough it out kind of parent, which 972 00:46:10.909 --> 00:46:13.690 means if it ain't that bad, you need to handle 973 00:46:13.730 --> 00:46:16.719 it on your own. Don't come to me. That's the 974 00:46:16.760 --> 00:46:19.880 way my parents did. Now, people, when I say that 975 00:46:19.900 --> 00:46:23.480 to people, other parents at the park look at me 976 00:46:23.539 --> 00:46:27.099 like I am out of my freaking gourd. Give me 977 00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:28.460 an example, Chuck. 978 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:31.300 Give me an example. And also, how old is the kid? 979 00:46:31.420 --> 00:46:33.159 Give me really specific. 980 00:46:33.199 --> 00:46:37.920 All right, six years old girl. I am a proponent 981 00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:43.400 of reinforcing that she is able to do Whatever she 982 00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:46.179 wants to do. And that means I cannot come to 983 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:50.460 her aid every single time she is having difficulty. So 984 00:46:50.559 --> 00:46:52.469 she's climbing the wall at the park. They have a 985 00:46:52.550 --> 00:46:53.309 rock climbing wall. 986 00:46:53.650 --> 00:46:54.010 Okay. 987 00:46:54.610 --> 00:46:56.730 She gets up to a certain point and I noticed 988 00:46:56.769 --> 00:46:59.730 she always stops and comes back down. I know it's 989 00:46:59.769 --> 00:47:02.150 because she's afraid to go any higher than that. 990 00:47:02.550 --> 00:47:02.710 Yeah. 991 00:47:02.989 --> 00:47:05.429 So I go over and I say, you know, you 992 00:47:05.449 --> 00:47:07.510 can make that, right? You can go ahead and you 993 00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:09.679 can make that. Well, go up to the top and 994 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:12.300 get my hand. I can't do that. But you can 995 00:47:12.340 --> 00:47:14.599 make that. Go ahead and do it. I'm telling you. 996 00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:19.059 We have some pushback back and forth because she's scared. 997 00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:24.809 She does it. And then she's like, I did it. Like, yeah, 998 00:47:24.869 --> 00:47:29.880 right now. When the pushback was happening, the other moms 999 00:47:29.900 --> 00:47:32.000 were looking at me like, oh, he's one of those. Like, 1000 00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:34.690 who are you? Yeah, he's one of those, like, pushy 1001 00:47:35.329 --> 00:47:36.429 sports dads. 1002 00:47:36.909 --> 00:47:39.500 He's a pushy sports dad. Yeah. 1003 00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.019 Yeah. 1004 00:47:40.059 --> 00:47:41.230 And they were tis-tisking you? 1005 00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:43.400 And they were tis-tisking me and

they were like, look at, 1006 00:47:43.659 --> 00:47:47.380 and you know, plus I'm the only black dude there. 1007 00:47:49.260 --> 00:47:50.750 So they were trying not to look like they were 1008 00:47:50.789 --> 00:47:51.789 tis-tisking you. 1009 00:47:51.869 --> 00:47:52.230 Right. 1010 00:47:52.269 --> 00:47:53.829 Yeah. Secretly tis-tisking. 1011 00:47:54.429 --> 00:47:56.510 But it comes from the fact that that's what was 1012 00:47:56.570 --> 00:47:57.150 done to me. 1013 00:47:57.650 --> 00:48:00.909 Yeah. I mean, demanding is good. You know, obviously. So 1014 00:48:00.989 --> 00:48:03.320 that story tells me that, you know, you weren't asking 1015 00:48:03.360 --> 00:48:06.949 your daughter to do something, which- was impossible, right? Like 1016 00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:09.449 you're asking your daughter to go just a little farther 1017 00:48:09.489 --> 00:48:12.389 than she was comfortable. And you knew that without you, 1018 00:48:12.409 --> 00:48:16.730 you know, encouraging her, like, like she wouldn't. And I 1019 00:48:16.769 --> 00:48:20.070 think that's exactly what this Russian psychologist Vygotsky meant is 1020 00:48:20.090 --> 00:48:21.989 that kids need to be asked to do things that 1021 00:48:22.010 --> 00:48:26.289 are just like, just beyond their reach. And Vygotsky also said, 1022 00:48:26.570 --> 00:48:29.090 it's like, just what you like, can't you do, but 1023 00:48:29.309 --> 00:48:32.010 if you had support, you would be able to do right. 1024 00:48:32.230 --> 00:48:35.179 So just, you know, imagine the visual picture of your 1025 00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:38.739 six-year-old daughter trying to reach something, right? And it's four 1026 00:48:38.820 --> 00:48:42.199 inches away, but you give her like just a little boost. 1027 00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:44.699 And I think that's what, and then they're like, oh, 1028 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.159 I can do it. And Vygotsky, well, it was Russian, 1029 00:48:48.219 --> 00:48:51.039 but the term translated would be like scaffolding. Like that's 1030 00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:53.610 what parents are there to do, to be demanding, but 1031 00:48:53.659 --> 00:48:56.949 also to provide, you know, the support just so that 1032 00:48:56.989 --> 00:49:00.630 it's not It's not impossible. And I agree with you. 1033 00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:02.739 You know, the one thing about parents judging other parents 1034 00:49:03.079 --> 00:49:06.369 is that from the outside, you can't really tell whether 1035 00:49:06.389 --> 00:49:10.389 somebody is being, you know, too demanding, not demanding enough. 1036 00:49:10.710 --> 00:49:13.070 You know, they just not enough information. So if I 1037 00:49:13.090 --> 00:49:16.670 just saw you in the park parenting your little girl, honestly, 1038 00:49:16.690 --> 00:49:18.809 I wouldn't be able to tell you what parenting style 1039 00:49:18.829 --> 00:49:21.119 you had because it's too demanding. much like context and 1040 00:49:21.139 --> 00:49:23.860 so forth. But as a parent, you yourself know everything. 1041 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.500 And I think you just have to ask yourself, like, 1042 00:49:26.099 --> 00:49:29.039 am I being demanding enough? And am I being supportive enough? 1043 00:49:29.460 --> 00:49:33.420 So the key point here is Chuck knew that this 1044 00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:37.380 little increment that his daughter was afraid of, that she 1045 00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:39.670 could do it if she tried. It was not an 1046 00:49:39.710 --> 00:49:43.409 impossible task. It wasn't grow wings and fly to the top. 1047 00:49:43.510 --> 00:49:46.780 It was this little extra increment, which became that much 1048 00:49:46.820 --> 00:49:48.199 more of an achievement for her, the fact that you 1049 00:49:48.219 --> 00:49:48.679 didn't help her. 1050 00:49:49.300 --> 00:49:51.239 Right, exactly. And that's the difference between that and a 1051 00:49:51.260 --> 00:49:54.139 participant ribbon also, right? Because that's just giving a person 1052 00:49:54.500 --> 00:49:57.900 a ribbon for not stretching, right? And it makes all 1053 00:49:57.920 --> 00:49:58.340 the difference. 1054 00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.519 Right. So getting back to the question, I would say 1055 00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:06.070 for me, I didn't need grit in doing what I 1056 00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:06.610 love to do. 1057 00:50:07.949 --> 00:50:08.809 Which is physics. 1058 00:50:09.150 --> 00:50:10.469 Yeah, just science. 1059 00:50:10.710 --> 00:50:12.710 So you didn't have to use discipline because you just 1060 00:50:12.750 --> 00:50:13.309 wanted to do it. 1061 00:50:13.530 --> 00:50:15.530 Yeah, I just wanted to do it. I derived pleasure 1062 00:50:15.829 --> 00:50:18.280 from the act of doing it and learning more. So 1063 00:50:18.469 --> 00:50:20.739 at no time could I or would I have ever 1064 00:50:21.119 --> 00:50:24.019 called that grit. There are other things that I had 1065 00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:26.320 a really hard job one summer when I was in 1066 00:50:26.360 --> 00:50:28.800 high school. I wasn't paid very much. I was a 1067 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:31.559 junior counselor, but we did all kinds of other things, 1068 00:50:31.619 --> 00:50:35.539 and it was a nightmare. But I thought... I realized 1069 00:50:35.579 --> 00:50:37.159 that there's a point where it ends. You know, the 1070 00:50:37.179 --> 00:50:38.789 summer ends, the days go by. I felt like the 1071 00:50:39.110 --> 00:50:42.670 prisoner putting X's on the calendar. There's a point where 1072 00:50:42.750 --> 00:50:45.550 this ends. And so I needed some grit. 1073 00:50:45.570 --> 00:50:47.190 Well, let me, let me, you can use the word 1074 00:50:47.210 --> 00:50:50.690 grit however you want, honestly. But like when I say grit, 1075 00:50:50.710 --> 00:50:53.269 the reason I say passion and perseverance is that I 1076 00:50:53.309 --> 00:50:55.900 really do think that gritty people, they're not using a 1077 00:50:55.909 --> 00:50:58.119 lot of

self-control to do what they're doing. They're doing 1078 00:50:58.159 --> 00:50:59.230 it because they do love it. 1079 00:50:59.340 --> 00:51:03.940 For me, grit is something goes wrong. And do you 1080 00:51:04.019 --> 00:51:05.079 recover from that? 1081 00:51:06.219 --> 00:51:06.440 Yeah. 1082 00:51:06.460 --> 00:51:07.860 I don't want to define a word that you wrote 1083 00:51:07.880 --> 00:51:09.250 a book on, but that's how. 1084 00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:12.599 You can do that. I mean, I think that's like 1085 00:51:12.679 --> 00:51:16.800 stamina is, is like, you know, keeping going when you're not, 1086 00:51:17.460 --> 00:51:19.929 you know, when things are going wrong and it's like 1087 00:51:20.139 --> 00:51:23.550 staying engaged. I mean, you know, like Isaac Newton and Einstein, 1088 00:51:23.570 --> 00:51:27.429 they both said that like the behind their genius, they 1089 00:51:27.449 --> 00:51:29.389 probably didn't say it was genius, but whatever, like behind 1090 00:51:29.429 --> 00:51:33.320 their accomplishments and, that they were still trying to solve 1091 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:36.670 the same problems. And to your point, that only happens 1092 00:51:36.710 --> 00:51:40.590 when you intrinsically are interested. All I really mean by 1093 00:51:40.650 --> 00:51:44.130 grit is the sustained over time part. 1094 00:51:44.530 --> 00:51:46.909 Also, I used to wrestle. I wrestled for like eight 1095 00:51:46.949 --> 00:51:50.869 years of my life. And that is the single hardest 1096 00:51:50.969 --> 00:51:55.349 physical thing I've ever done. And by the way, anyone 1097 00:51:55.409 --> 00:52:00.050 who has wrestled will say exactly that same sentence. If 1098 00:52:00.090 --> 00:52:00.989 you haven't wrestled. 1099 00:52:01.050 --> 00:52:03.610 You'll mention... Does that count emotionally? Like when you've wrestled 1100 00:52:03.650 --> 00:52:07.369 with things emotionally? Like I have for so very long. 1101 00:52:07.409 --> 00:52:11.800 Or wrestled with what to order for lunch or all 1102 00:52:11.820 --> 00:52:13.260 kinds of wrestling. It's all the same. 1103 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.079 I've wrestled a lot of things. Yeah, I don't know 1104 00:52:16.099 --> 00:52:17.940 if it's the same. We have to ask Angela about that. 1105 00:52:18.460 --> 00:52:23.050 But I just know that if you've never wrestled and 1106 00:52:23.070 --> 00:52:25.829 you've done any other sport, you could list a dozen 1107 00:52:25.909 --> 00:52:28.489 other sports there. But if you've wrestled, Your answer will 1108 00:52:28.510 --> 00:52:31.510 be wrestling. And I've done that experiment. And it's really there. 1109 00:52:32.130 --> 00:52:36.269 So in terms of just the physical exhaustion and how 1110 00:52:36.369 --> 00:52:37.159 fit you have to be. 1111 00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:39.519 So what would your life be like if you hadn't wrestled? Oh, 1112 00:52:40.059 --> 00:52:40.800 good question. 1113 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:44.360 There are many places I would have just given up. 1114 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:47.400 Because I said, I don't have the energy to complete this. 1115 00:52:47.420 --> 00:52:49.320 Even though you loved what you did. 1116 00:52:49.340 --> 00:52:51.800 No, no. For other things where, let's say, there are 1117 00:52:51.820 --> 00:52:53.760 things sometimes you have to do if you don't completely 1118 00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:54.039 love it. 1119 00:52:54.460 --> 00:52:56.469 Right. That's what I wanted to say. So even though 1120 00:52:56.489 --> 00:52:59.510 you love what you do so much, right, there's some 1121 00:52:59.590 --> 00:53:01.630 things where you're like, oh, God, I want to give up. 1122 00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:02.969 Or like, oh, God, I want to do this. 1123 00:53:03.130 --> 00:53:04.570 I'm going to quote a famous writer who I don't 1124 00:53:04.590 --> 00:53:06.929 remember who said, I like having written. 1125 00:53:08.329 --> 00:53:12.530 Oh, yeah. You know what? Writers say those things all 1126 00:53:12.570 --> 00:53:14.719 the time. They're always whining about how hard it is 1127 00:53:14.739 --> 00:53:15.559 to write. 1128 00:53:15.679 --> 00:53:19.019 I wrote a column every month for Natural History Magazine. 1129 00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:23.360 Damn near killed me. The deadline just creeps up. 1130 00:53:23.380 --> 00:53:27.599 What about your book? How about your best-selling book? How 1131 00:53:27.619 --> 00:53:28.340 much work was that? 1132 00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:33.400 That was a collection of essays I had written, but 1133 00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:36.340 I remembered the effort of every single sentence and the 1134 00:53:36.409 --> 00:53:39.730 choice of words. And now I step back and look 1135 00:53:39.750 --> 00:53:42.570 at it. Yeah, that works together there. And that's a thing. 1136 00:53:43.409 --> 00:53:45.650 What was a bigger effort was my war book, which 1137 00:53:45.690 --> 00:53:48.130 I had a co-author, with 600 pages. And it was 1138 00:53:48.130 --> 00:53:50.119 10 years in the writing, and you say to yourself, 1139 00:53:50.139 --> 00:53:52.010 this will never get finished, this will never get done. 1140 00:53:52.250 --> 00:53:55.110 Of course, having done a PhD thesis, that also has 1141 00:53:55.150 --> 00:53:59.829 a never-ending feel to it. So that's a. 1142 00:54:00.309 --> 00:54:03.210 So was wrestling helpful during those moments? 1143 00:54:03.469 --> 00:54:06.050 Yes, even when I'm not actually wrestling. So I think 1144 00:54:06.409 --> 00:54:09.610 the idea that you're in a struggle and you overcome 1145 00:54:09.650 --> 00:54:11.309 the struggle and it's one of the great struggles of 1146 00:54:11.349 --> 00:54:15.030 your life, I agree with Chuck that it can apply 1147 00:54:15.070 --> 00:54:19.059 in other dimensions. to what are the challenges are in 1148 00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:21.340 your life. And that's, then I've done that. So that's 1149 00:54:21.380 --> 00:54:23.119 how I answer that question. 1150 00:54:23.320

--> 00:54:26.880 I think that's why parents send their kids to, you know, 1151 00:54:27.099 --> 00:54:29.380 do hard things. Not that they think they're going to 1152 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:36.019 be like professional wrestlers, for example, for example, or professional, whatever. 1153 00:54:36.460 --> 00:54:37.639 Challenges, challenges of life. 1154 00:54:37.699 --> 00:54:39.340 It's challenges. Yeah. Yeah. 1155 00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:44.389 I agree. I'm reminded of Don Quixote where, where there are, 1156 00:54:45.150 --> 00:54:47.150 or at least in Man of La Mancha, the Broadway 1157 00:54:47.190 --> 00:54:53.139 musical and the song, to reach the unreachable star, to 1158 00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:56.940 move the immovable object, to fight the unbeatable foe, that 1159 00:54:57.460 --> 00:55:00.860 if you have struggled and you know what it is 1160 00:55:00.940 --> 00:55:03.780 to struggle, even if you do not see the end 1161 00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.400 in sight, you can tap that source of energy and 1162 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:12.320 inspiration and emotion to keep you going because you might succeed. Right. 1163 00:55:12.360 --> 00:55:14.199 You can learn to strive. Right? 1164 00:55:14.730 --> 00:55:16.690 There you go. That's the way. What a great. That's 1165 00:55:16.730 --> 00:55:18.389 very poetic. I love it. Learn to strive. 1166 00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:19.349 Learn to strive. 1167 00:55:19.690 --> 00:55:23.809 Make it into a Broadway musical. Yeah. 1168 00:55:23.849 --> 00:55:26.070 We got to wrap this up. But Chuck, I don't 1169 00:55:26.090 --> 00:55:27.179 think we have time for any more questions. 1170 00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:30.940 No, we don't. But I got to tell you something. One, two, three, four. 1171 00:55:31.519 --> 00:55:33.619 I still have five pages. 1172 00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:37.429 Pages. Five pages of questions. That means we come back 1173 00:55:37.469 --> 00:55:41.630 to this topic. If Angela... deigned to grant us another. 1174 00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:43.789 They keep you out of the lab, Neil. You're like, 1175 00:55:43.909 --> 00:55:48.940 God damn it. I've got this burden. Named Angela Duckworth. 1176 00:55:48.980 --> 00:55:50.559 We will totally bring her back because this is a 1177 00:55:50.780 --> 00:55:54.239 very important subject for parents, for people who want to succeed, 1178 00:55:54.320 --> 00:55:57.179 people trying to get out of the doldrums. So, Angela, 1179 00:55:57.360 --> 00:55:58.840 always good to have you. I get to say that 1180 00:55:58.900 --> 00:55:59.619 because it's our second time. 1181 00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:00.480 Because we're like friends. 1182 00:56:00.739 --> 00:56:04.429 We're totally there. Always good to have you. Chuck, you're 1183 00:56:04.449 --> 00:56:04.849 there for us. 1184 00:56:04.869 --> 00:56:05.710 Always a pleasure. 1185 00:56:05.730 --> 00:56:10.250 Alright, man. I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson. your personal astrophysicist. As always, 1186 00:56:10.309 --> 00:56:12.090 bidding you to keep looking up.