Full Transcript for Reefer Madness_ The Science of Marijuana with Neil deGrasse Tyson and Dr. Staci Gruber

00:02:25.759 Because there was really no data. up till very recently 39 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.629 on the long-term effects of cannabis when people use it 40 00:02:28.659 --> 00:02:31.870 for medical purposes, as opposed to recreational or adult use. 41 00:02:31.990 --> 00:02:35.530 Really important distinction and factors into our talk today, for sure. 42 00:02:35.830 --> 00:02:38.090 Very excellent. So we'll get right to it. Many of 43 00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:42.870 us think about cannabis as a recreational drug and with 44 00:02:42.930 --> 00:02:47.189 very little sort of side effects to it from what's intended. 45 00:02:47.509 --> 00:02:50.620 And also medicinal use has been around for millennia, as 46 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:55.789 I understand it. Thousands of Yeah, thousands of years. And 47 00:02:55.990 --> 00:02:58.729 so let me ask you, let's get straight into this 48 00:02:58.750 --> 00:03:05.080 because this is StarTalk Sports Edition. And Sha'Carri Richardson's Olympic band, 49 00:03:05.419 --> 00:03:09.819 all right, she was the 100-meter sprinter that was tested 50 00:03:09.979 --> 00:03:16.360 positive for cannabis. And so she got booted from the Olympics. 51 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:20.469 She's not in her key event in the Olympics because 52 00:03:20.500 --> 00:03:22.530 she tested positive for cannabis. So I have to ask 53 00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:26.439 and start off this question. this segment. In what way 54 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:32.849 does smoking weed increase your musculoskeletal reaction time and make 55 00:03:32.870 --> 00:03:37.370 you run faster? In what way does it enhance your 56 00:03:37.430 --> 00:03:39.349 performance in the 100 meter dash? 57 00:03:40.210 --> 00:03:43.250 It's a fantastic question. And I'll tell you, most people 58 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:45.530 say things like, hey, If you can smoke weed or 59 00:03:45.610 --> 00:03:48.849 use cannabis and perform and win, you should get something 60 00:03:48.889 --> 00:03:49.789 for it because you're active. 61 00:03:49.949 --> 00:03:54.000 Two medals. You should get two medals. 62 00:03:54.009 --> 00:03:56.780 That's exactly right. And to your point, you know, cannabis 63 00:03:56.800 --> 00:03:59.219 has been around for thousands and thousands of years. First 64 00:03:59.259 --> 00:04:02.340 documented use was as medicine, you know, and it was 65 00:04:02.379 --> 00:04:06.289 part of our pharmacopeia since 1850. We prescribed it. Then 66 00:04:06.310 --> 00:04:08.389 it became illegal through a series of events that I 67 00:04:08.430 --> 00:04:09.169 know Chuck knows. 68 00:04:09.650 --> 00:04:10.849 You're not talking well, I know it. 69 00:04:10.849 --> 00:04:11.710 Exactly right. 70 00:04:11.750 --> 00:04:15.770 They just let Chuck out of jail. He just got out. 71 00:04:16.949 --> 00:04:20.149 The mid-90s saw us revisit this, and California was the 72 00:04:20.189 --> 00:04:23.050 first state to legalize cannabis for medical purposes. But in 73 00:04:23.129

--> 00:04:28.600 terms of sports, the Waterless, the World Anti-Doping Association, has 74 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:33.129 cannabis on the list of prohibited substances. And you know, 75 00:04:33.149 --> 00:04:35.529 there's been a lot about this, especially with regard to 76 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:37.620 Sha'Carri Richardson. And I think you have to meet two 77 00:04:37.649 --> 00:04:40.379 of three criteria to be on that list. It poses 78 00:04:40.459 --> 00:04:43.639 risks to your athletes. It provides a performance. 79 00:04:43.680 --> 00:04:44.660 Health risk, health risk. 80 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:47.240 But I think the, I think that the language is 81 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.420 pretty open and vague. That's part of the concern here. Okay. 82 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:55.120 I risk winning the sport. Okay. There's a risk for you. 83 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:55.800 There you go. 84 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:57.379 And it violates the spirit of the sport, which is 85 00:04:57.420 --> 00:04:59.480 one of those casual caveats that anything can fall under. 86 00:04:59.660 --> 00:05:03.500 But to your point, Most studies to date document that 87 00:05:03.699 --> 00:05:07.100 one does not have improved, let's say, or faster reaction 88 00:05:07.139 --> 00:05:11.100 time or improved or increased coordination. Quite the opposite when 89 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:14.850 we're talking about what we think of as typical conventional 90 00:05:15.139 --> 00:05:17.850 recreational or adult use of cannabis. That's not what we see. 91 00:05:18.269 --> 00:05:22.069 Individual constituents might confer some benefit, but when we're talking 92 00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:26.350 about flower, whole plant products typically used for adult or 93 00:05:26.389 --> 00:05:29.759 recreational purposes to change one's current state of being, we 94 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.399 don't see improvements in reaction time. That's not what we 95 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:35.920 see from a research perspective. And most of the science 96 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:38.550 that leads us back to where we are now in 97 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.269 terms of it being prohibited is a little bit questionable. 98 00:05:41.290 --> 00:05:42.649 And I think a lot of people are now taking 99 00:05:42.670 --> 00:05:45.949 a much closer look at exactly why it's on the list. 100 00:05:46.589 --> 00:05:47.629 Wow. Yeah. 101 00:05:48.110 --> 00:05:50.879 So, so does this have anything to do? I mean, 102 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:52.899 I don't want to get into the whole history of weed, 103 00:05:52.980 --> 00:05:56.600 but you know, and reefer madness and why that happened and, 104 00:05:57.100 --> 00:05:58.240 you know, being connected to jazz. 105 00:05:58.259 --> 00:06:01.560 Reefer Madness, the public service film that was produced. Right, 106 00:06:01.579 --> 00:06:02.500 the public service film. 107 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:07.019 And going back before that is the connection between black 108 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.759 people and white people coming together. Believe it or not, 109 00:06:12.110 --> 00:06:15.769 that was the problem. Forget all that. 2020, I believe, 110 00:06:15.829 --> 00:06:19.129 they removed it from Schedule 1. I don't know if 111 00:06:19.170 --> 00:06:21.069 they actually removed it or did they take a vote, 112 00:06:21.389 --> 00:06:23.310 but I read about it sometime. So can you tell 113 00:06:23.329 --> 00:06:23.870 me about that? 114 00:06:24.170 --> 00:06:26.269 And what is Schedule 1? Just put us on the 115 00:06:26.310 --> 00:06:26.959 same page there. 116 00:06:26.980 --> 00:06:30.379 Great series of questions. So just a real quick history thing, again, 117 00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:32.899 to your point, it was part of our pharmacopoeia. Reefer 118 00:06:32.939 --> 00:06:35.839 madness really refers to a period of time in which 119 00:06:35.879 --> 00:06:38.920 the nation really fell under this spell. And there are 120 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:40.879 a lot of psychosocial reasons that this happened. We won't 121 00:06:40.899 --> 00:06:42.560 get into it, but it fell out of favor. The 122 00:06:42.579 --> 00:06:45.550 Marijuana Tax Act made cannabis illegal. And it not only 123 00:06:45.589 --> 00:06:49.470 was removed from the pharmacopeia, which doctors used to prescribe, 124 00:06:49.730 --> 00:06:55.050 not recommend or suggest, prescribe, it became illegal. In the 125 00:06:55.050 --> 00:06:57.769 1970 Controlled Substance Act, it was placed in the most 126 00:06:57.829 --> 00:07:02.660 restrictive class, Schedule I. Schedule I, which by definition, gentlemen, 127 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:04.139 no accepted medical value. 128 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:04.680 Okay. 129 00:07:05.060 --> 00:07:06.439 That's where cannabis sits today. 130 00:07:06.500 --> 00:07:09.319 Chuck, to your point. Sitting right next to other drugs 131 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:09.699 like what? 132 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:11.319 Cocaine. 133 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:12.939 Heroin. No, cocaine schedule two, sir. 134 00:07:13.259 --> 00:07:16.490 Okay. Chuck, did I ask you the question? I don't know. 135 00:07:16.550 --> 00:07:18.310 I was just thinking about cocaine. 136 00:07:18.389 --> 00:07:21.050 I'm not going to go there. That's fine. 137 00:07:21.189 --> 00:07:23.509 Okay, so schedule one. Who's to his left and who's 138 00:07:23.529 --> 00:07:24.610 to his right in schedule one? 139 00:07:25.569 --> 00:07:29.470 So cannabis sits in schedule one alongside things like heroin. 140 00:07:31.009 --> 00:07:33.709 So no accepted medical value, which people have, of course, 141 00:07:33.750 --> 00:07:36.709 begun to question because individual constituents from the plant. This 142 00:07:36.769 --> 00:07:39.670 place is complicated. There's over 400 compounds. A hundred of 143 00:07:39.709 --> 00:07:42.180 these interact with our brain and body system of chemicals 144 00:07:42.220 --> 00:07:46.120 and receptors. The question is, if there's no accepted medical

value, 145 00:07:46.220 --> 00:07:48.420 how is it that you have an FDA approved medication 146 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:52.290 like Epidiolex, a single extracted purified compound for kids with 147 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:56.269 pediatric onset seizure disorders? That's not only FDA approved, but 148 00:07:56.649 --> 00:07:59.110 not in Schedule 1. So Schedule 1, by definition, most 149 00:07:59.149 --> 00:08:03.069 restrictive class. And to your point, Chuck, cannabis remains illegal 150 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.160 at the federal level. In 2018, you're thinking of the 151 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:08.939 Hemp Act. The Hemp Act was passed, which basically said 152 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:12.279 that all cultivars or chemovars, all plants basically of cannabis 153 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:18.259 sativa L, that had less than 0.3% THC, the primary 154 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:20.740 intoxicating constituent of the plant, is what gets you high. 155 00:08:21.100 --> 00:08:23.360 It's what our recreational adult users are typically looking for. 156 00:08:23.899 --> 00:08:27.589 Every plant that had less than 0.3% THC by weight 157 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:32.389 was okay. It's industrial hemp. So it's a really interesting 158 00:08:32.669 --> 00:08:36.110 shift that we've had because this is the proliferation that 159 00:08:36.129 --> 00:08:39.740 we've seen of CBD high products, products high in CBD 160 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:42.120 that may or may not have THC up to a 161 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:42.659 certain point. 162 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:48.970 The IOC, which banned Sha'Carri Richardson, where are they getting 163 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:52.600 their information from? Are they getting it from Who is it? WADA? 164 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:54.620 What is the acronym? 165 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.320 I think it's the World Anti-Doping Association. 166 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:00.679 World Anti-Doping Agency. 167 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.470 Are they getting their insights from the World Anti-Doping Association? 168 00:09:04.509 --> 00:09:08.970 And are they getting it from outdated federal legislation? I mean, 169 00:09:08.990 --> 00:09:10.789 who's who's mind in the store here? 170 00:09:12.129 --> 00:09:14.230 Another really great question. So the question is, where does 171 00:09:14.269 --> 00:09:17.009 this science, where does the sort of evidence for this 172 00:09:17.289 --> 00:09:20.450 come from? And most people are turning back to some 173 00:09:20.470 --> 00:09:22.629 studies that happened in a review paper that was published 174 00:09:23.149 --> 00:09:25.799 in 2011, I think. And they lean into it pretty hard. 175 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:29.159 And that was enough evidence to sort of maintain its 176 00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:32.379 current status. Whether or not it should remain there is 177 00:09:32.419 --> 00:09:34.820 something different. Again, I would say this. If we know 178 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.840 that people who, let's just think of people

who smoke 179 00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:40.440 or vape cannabis for fun or recreational purposes. Is their 180 00:09:40.460 --> 00:09:45.419 reaction time faster? No. Is their coordination better? No. 181 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:46.059 Okay. 182 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:46.659 So take that. 183 00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:49.509 Do they even want to run in the race? 184 00:09:50.070 --> 00:09:50.309 No. 185 00:09:52.029 --> 00:09:54.009 Is there a competition where you can sit on the 186 00:09:54.029 --> 00:09:55.370 couch and eat donuts? 187 00:09:57.470 --> 00:10:00.269 Not everybody uses the same types of products, right? And 188 00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:03.230 so here's the big distinction. So when people think of 189 00:10:03.289 --> 00:10:06.960 things like that and they ask the question, should this 190 00:10:07.009 --> 00:10:10.220 or should this not be prohibited? Is it performance enhancing? Actually, 191 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:12.820 from that perspective, no. But some people have raised the 192 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:17.470 following question. Well, it relaxes people. It allows you to 193 00:10:17.529 --> 00:10:19.809 let things go. It's great for anxiety. Again, very low 194 00:10:19.850 --> 00:10:22.970 doses of THC, good for anxiety. Higher doses, not so much. 195 00:10:23.149 --> 00:10:25.490 Don't go there. Other constituents are great for that too. 196 00:10:25.509 --> 00:10:27.889 But if that's the case, if it's an indirect effect 197 00:10:27.929 --> 00:10:30.149 that we're seeing, it's not the same as a steroid, 198 00:10:30.190 --> 00:10:33.120 which allows you to build muscle significantly faster and with 199 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:33.820 less effort, right? 200 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:35.960 With an elite athlete, and we kind of bounce back 201 00:10:36.019 --> 00:10:39.779 into the Sha'Carri Richardson scenario here, what difference would there 202 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:42.919 be for them to consume THC as opposed to CBD? 203 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:47.220 I know each individual athlete will react differently. I appreciate 204 00:10:47.259 --> 00:10:50.279 that much. But in a broad stroke, could you explain 205 00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:51.059 that to us, Doctor? 206 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:54.710 And just to be clear, THC is tetrahydrocannabis? Is that 207 00:10:54.730 --> 00:10:55.370 what that stands for? 208 00:10:55.409 --> 00:11:00.889 It stands for delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol. And it is the primary intoxicating 209 00:11:00.929 --> 00:11:03.590 constituent of the plant. Again, lots of players here. The 210 00:11:05.669 --> 00:11:08.110 other big player here that people have spent a lot 211 00:11:08.129 --> 00:11:10.429 of time and attention on is cannabidiol or CBD. 212 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:10.600 April. 213 00:11:12.220 --> 00:11:16.980 Non-intoxicating constituent of the plant, often touted for its therapeutic potential. 214 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:19.860 So when we think about what could happen if you 215 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:23.950 are exposed to large amounts of THC versus CBD, what 216 00:11:23.970 --> 00:11:27.429 you typically find is CBD, again, is not intoxicating. People 217 00:11:27.549 --> 00:11:29.590 use it for all sorts of reasons. There is very 218 00:11:29.649 --> 00:11:33.149 scant evidence here from a scientific perspective. You know, as 219 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:35.740 a neuroscientist, we like to have empirically sound data. 220 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:36.580 Evidence matters. 221 00:11:37.250 --> 00:11:40.570 Evidence matters, man. Exactly. And here, policy is outpaced science. 222 00:11:40.590 --> 00:11:42.370 So we want to be very clear about what these 223 00:11:42.990 --> 00:11:45.129 constituents do and don't do. And we don't know the 224 00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:47.649 whole thing yet. We really don't. It's a complex story, 225 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:51.279 especially when we start thinking about multi-compound products, not just 226 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:54.100 THC or just CBD, but the ways in which people 227 00:11:54.220 --> 00:11:58.639 typically use, right? Like Sha'Carri Richardson. So to your point, Gary, 228 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:01.399 what do we expect? Again, products that are higher in 229 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.379 THC typically are used for those who are looking for 230 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:08.740 from a recreational perspective, looking to change their current state 231 00:12:08.779 --> 00:12:11.179 of being or sort of take themselves out of something. 232 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.840 CBD is not intoxicating. Would you find that somebody has 233 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.879 any physiologic change after using CBD? There've been some preclinical 234 00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:22.220 studies suggesting that. And there's some human studies suggesting it, 235 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.190 but the evidence is pretty, pretty sparse. We have to 236 00:12:25.250 --> 00:12:26.789 do a lot more work in this area. 237 00:12:26.809 --> 00:12:29.250 All right, listen, when we come back after this break, 238 00:12:29.289 --> 00:12:31.850 this short break, what we really want to get to 239 00:12:31.870 --> 00:12:34.590 the bottom of is how is it that these chemicals 240 00:12:34.649 --> 00:12:37.870 that all extracted from weed can be banned or not banned, 241 00:12:38.169 --> 00:12:40.870 yet there's all manner of other chemicals that we take 242 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:45.090 that do influence us physiologically that just get completely overlooked, like, 243 00:12:45.149 --> 00:12:49.919 for example, ibuprofen to get rid of pain, or even coffee. 244 00:12:50.419 --> 00:12:53.120 So when we come back, we're going to see how 245 00:12:53.139 --> 00:12:56.940 does everything else we do and ingest measure up to 246 00:12:56.980 --> 00:13:02.590 cannabis on StarTalk. We're back, StarTalk Sports Edition. We're talking 247 00:13:02.610 --> 00:13:06.899 about cannabis, marijuana. and what role it can play, has played, 248 00:13:07.019 -->

00:13:12.059 should or shouldn't play in athletic competition. And we've got Dr. 249 00:13:12.139 --> 00:13:16.279 Stacey Gruber, not her first rodeo with us here on StarTalk. 250 00:13:17.419 --> 00:13:20.320 This time we're just really trying to find out what's 251 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:25.059 going on in the Olympics, how is it that Sha'Carri 252 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.600 Richardson got banned, but more importantly for this segment, Stacey, 253 00:13:29.659 --> 00:13:32.139 I want to know, how is it that I can 254 00:13:32.220 --> 00:13:37.070 take sort of a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug. 255 00:13:37.789 --> 00:13:39.509 NSAID. 256 00:13:39.690 --> 00:13:43.289 NSAID. Okay. You've got an acronym for that. Non-steroid anti-inflammatory 257 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:49.360 to NSAID. NSAID. And the Olympics and they'll find that 258 00:13:49.379 --> 00:13:51.559 in my pee or however they measure it and all 259 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:58.120 is fine. Okay. But if I took a cannabinoid, that's bad. 260 00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:02.940 Don't they have similar effects on our bodies and what's 261 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:03.440 going on there? 262 00:14:04.190 --> 00:14:08.700 So, you know, they really, again, these rules, these regulations, 263 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.539 these guidelines, I think are set in place sometimes in 264 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:15.299 the absence of clear evidence. And in the case of 265 00:14:15.340 --> 00:14:18.070 an NSAID, which is very clearly used as an analgesic 266 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:21.730 or a pain reliever, which also helps with inflammation. These 267 00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:24.649 are actually two things that people often use cannabis for. 268 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:27.210 You happen to raise a really good point. NSAIDs are 269 00:14:27.269 --> 00:14:30.149 legal and they are not illegal. Again, you know, sort 270 00:14:30.190 --> 00:14:33.320 of on the illicit substance, they're not in the controlled 271 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.799 substance group and they're not in the CSA at all. 272 00:14:36.220 --> 00:14:40.000 So could someone make an argument that NSAIDs could themselves 273 00:14:40.059 --> 00:14:42.919 be performance enhancing because they help reduce inflammation or help 274 00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:43.379 with pain? 275 00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:43.820 Sure. 276 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:48.100 Cannabis or marijuana, I think, is prohibited for a number 277 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:51.379 of reasons. And they did change the amount of cannabis, quote, 278 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:54.570 it's actually a metabolite of THC that's detected in the urine. 279 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:57.960 They raised the limit of detections. from I think 15 280 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:02.090 nanograms to 150 because people are using whole plant full 281 00:15:02.129 --> 00:15:05.769 spectrum products that are primarily comprised of CBD and other 282 00:15:05.830 --> 00:15:10.610 non-intox constituents. But you may still test positive for THC. 283 00:15:10.629 --> 00:15:15.500 So wait, nanogram, that's a billionth of a gram, nanogram. 284 00:15:16.860 --> 00:15:18.840 Astrophysicist who knows the lexicon. 285 00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:21.799 Did I hear that right? That's oh my gosh. Okay. 286 00:15:23.350 --> 00:15:26.909 That means they're really getting into your pee at that level. 287 00:15:27.450 --> 00:15:32.370 I'm just saying. If they know nanogram contents in my pee, damn. 288 00:15:32.389 --> 00:15:34.970 I'm just going to bottle first, Neil. Okay. 289 00:15:35.169 --> 00:15:35.889 So doctor, right. 290 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:38.570 So here I am. I've gone into the lab and 291 00:15:38.610 --> 00:15:41.379 I'm being creative and I come up with a drug 292 00:15:41.500 --> 00:15:45.639 that's A, a stimulant. B, if I test it on mice, 293 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:50.500 could be proven to improve muscle growth. And if I 294 00:15:50.539 --> 00:15:55.779 mix it with water... It's rich in antioxidants. Would WADA 295 00:15:56.139 --> 00:15:57.200 ban this drug? 296 00:15:58.080 --> 00:15:58.820 Great question. 297 00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:00.250 WADA, again, the. 298 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:02.090 World Anti-Doping Agency. 299 00:16:02.139 --> 00:16:04.490 Yeah, it's a great question. I'm not sure what criteria 300 00:16:04.509 --> 00:16:04.909 they use. 301 00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:06.570 Okay, what if I called it coffee? 302 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:10.549 Exactly. 303 00:16:10.690 --> 00:16:12.990 You know, I could make the same argument for so 304 00:16:13.009 --> 00:16:15.889 many things. It's, again, I have a feeling, and I 305 00:16:15.909 --> 00:16:17.629 could be wrong because I don't live in the WADA 306 00:16:17.669 --> 00:16:21.269 sort of bubble or in the IOC, the International Olympic Committee, 307 00:16:21.649 --> 00:16:23.330 But I have a feeling this has a lot to 308 00:16:23.370 --> 00:16:25.690 do with the fact that cannabis remains schedule one at 309 00:16:25.710 --> 00:16:26.309 the federal level. 310 00:16:26.610 --> 00:16:30.080 That's what I was wondering. If somebody thinks it's bad, 311 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.639 then you don't want to be the one who says 312 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:33.279 it's not bad. 313 00:16:33.700 --> 00:16:33.879 Right. 314 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:35.679 Maybe that they're afraid to be the first out of 315 00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:36.279 the gate on that. 316 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:39.500 And I think that there have been some some studies 317 00:16:39.539 --> 00:16:44.220 that have perhaps prematurely or perhaps without a huge amount 318 00:16:44.259 --> 00:16:47.019 of evidence behind it decided that it can, in fact, 319 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.639 help people with their performance. So therefore, it must be 320 00:16:49.659 --> 00:16:53.490 a performance enhancing substance. That has really come under a 321 00:16:53.529 --> 00:16:55.610 fair amount of scrutiny these days. And again, when you 322 00:16:55.629 -->

00:16:59.080 do a comparison between cannabis and other substances, like alcohol, 323 00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:00.779 alcohol is not on the banned list. 324 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:02.559 Right. 325 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.079 So it sounds to me like water really should be, 326 00:17:06.259 --> 00:17:09.859 what are you talking about? What are you talking about? 327 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:11.880 Or what are you out of your mind? Like that 328 00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:14.089 kind of is what water is. 329 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:18.710 That's not. What the are you saying? 330 00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:23.609 So doctor, we kind of, immediately default to an impairment 331 00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:29.460 of cognitive skills on using cannabis or marijuana. But are there, 332 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.079 and I do believe the term that you use is downstream, 333 00:17:33.019 --> 00:17:38.079 effects of cannabis use that could be seen. 334 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.730 As an aid to performance? 335 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:45.650 Performance not being I run faster, jump higher, but in recovery, 336 00:17:46.670 --> 00:17:50.279 maybe aid sleep. have an anti-inflammatory property. Do we have 337 00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:52.640 those downstream effects from this drug? 338 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:56.259 Yeah, and why not ban sleep? Because getting sleep enhances 339 00:17:56.299 --> 00:17:56.900 your performance. 340 00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:59.140 It's the best thing you can do for your performance. 341 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:00.759 The single best thing you can do actually across the 342 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:01.700 board almost for anything. 343 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.480 Right, so we should ban it because it enhances performance, 344 00:18:04.829 --> 00:18:05.140 I think. 345 00:18:05.569 --> 00:18:07.589 I think to your point, again, there's a difference between 346 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:09.849 direct and indirect effects. And how do you start to 347 00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:14.109 measure what will or won't have an effect? you know, downstream. 348 00:18:14.170 --> 00:18:16.789 So some of these constituents have certainly been shown to 349 00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:21.289 be anti-inflammatory and help promote sleep, help reduce anxiety. Could those, 350 00:18:21.650 --> 00:18:24.529 you know, at some level help someone function day to day? 351 00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:27.309 Remember that athletic performance is also an extension of how 352 00:18:27.329 --> 00:18:29.869 that individual is in a given day. This young lady 353 00:18:29.930 --> 00:18:32.609 was quite brave and quite open and honest and told 354 00:18:32.730 --> 00:18:35.450 the world why she used it. And I think most 355 00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:38.230 people had a rather visceral response like, ah, I get that. 356 00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:41.289 She also knew what the stated sort of guidelines were 357 00:18:41.329 --> 00:18:45.009 and did it anyway. The point is, who's to say 358 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:47.559 what is and isn't going to have a downstream effect? 359 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:51.339 We know that exposure to cannabis or certain cannabinoids when 360 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.000 an individual is very young can result in some decrements. 361 00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:57.680 Absolutely true. Sure. That's not necessarily the case for individuals 362 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:00.210 as they get older. And we've had some evidence to 363 00:19:00.250 --> 00:19:02.769 sort of contradict what we've seen in the recreational consumers. 364 00:19:03.059 --> 00:19:07.220 But again, the story is pretty unclear here. 365 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.309 How about this? There's some people, as we know, who 366 00:19:10.369 --> 00:19:16.809 have sort of genetic inability to process alcohol in ways 367 00:19:16.849 --> 00:19:20.970 that others do. Are there genetic variations in people's reactions 368 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:23.089 to the cannabinoids or whatever? 369 00:19:23.109 --> 00:19:25.009 Cannabinoids. Yes, absolutely. 370 00:19:25.589 --> 00:19:29.230 And can I just dovetail on Neil's question? Can you 371 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.549 answer that? Tell us about cannabinoid receptors in our brain 372 00:19:33.910 --> 00:19:37.980 because I've read somewhere that it's the only so-called drug, 373 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:43.359 the THC being the psychoactive constituent, it's the only drug 374 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:47.329 that actually our brain is already designed to latch onto. 375 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:49.049 I heard that. I heard that too. I heard that too. 376 00:19:49.049 --> 00:19:51.099 I heard that a lot. People say I'm wired for weed. 377 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:54.519 Quick primer, you have CB1 and CB2 receptors. They're part 378 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.720 of the endocannabinoid system, a system of chemicals or receptors 379 00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:00.859 throughout the brain and the body. THC binds pretty effectively 380 00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:04.589 to CB1 receptors, for example. We also have things like 381 00:20:04.630 --> 00:20:08.900 mu and kappa receptors that are... again, are endogenous, but 382 00:20:08.940 --> 00:20:11.460 they are the targets for opioids. So, you know, it's 383 00:20:11.500 --> 00:20:15.940 not just cannabis. But to your point, the cytochrome P450 384 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.130 enzyme system in your liver basically dictates how you process things. 385 00:20:20.390 --> 00:20:23.369 And again, really great point. Genetically, we are not all 386 00:20:23.410 --> 00:20:26.329 created equally. We're just not. And there are some groups 387 00:20:26.349 --> 00:20:30.740 that don't process alcohol, right? Some cultures, Ashkenazi Jews, for example, 388 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:32.799 we don't have a ton of alcohol dehydrogenase, the thing 389 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:35.420 that breaks down alcohol and allows us to process it effectively. 390 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:40.160 So there are many people who are poor

metabolizers of THC. 391 00:20:40.220 --> 00:20:43.480 And as a result, they are often very, very high 392 00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:46.240 for a very long time. These are the people here 393 00:20:46.549 --> 00:20:48.769 that say things like, oh my God, I was, you know, 394 00:20:48.849 --> 00:20:51.869 I was out of my mind for 12 to 14 hours. 395 00:20:52.549 --> 00:20:56.029 There are other people who metabolize so effectively and so efficiently, 396 00:20:56.069 --> 00:20:59.069 they can have 30, 40, 50 milligrams of a product 397 00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:02.750 and these edibles, and they don't show an effect. So 398 00:21:02.930 --> 00:21:06.029 we are not all created equally and your genetic your 399 00:21:06.069 --> 00:21:09.910 makeup actually really will dictate how you process these products. 400 00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:12.700 But I look at your list of three criteria, right? 401 00:21:13.059 --> 00:21:15.279 Does it, or was it the IOC's criteria? Does it 402 00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:19.569 have the potential to enhance? Water, water. In New York 403 00:21:19.609 --> 00:21:23.650 City- W-A-T-E-R is pronounced water. So that's, I can't, it's 404 00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:25.069 hard for me to have this conversation. 405 00:21:25.309 --> 00:21:26.269 W-A-T-A, water. 406 00:21:26.589 --> 00:21:28.829 With water. Give me a, I need a cup of water. 407 00:21:28.849 --> 00:21:30.730 I need a glass of water. Yeah, give me water. 408 00:21:31.529 --> 00:21:32.170 That's the water. 409 00:21:32.490 --> 00:21:35.589 It's a very New York City accent. But, so these 410 00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:37.849 three criteria, does it have the potential to enhance performance? 411 00:21:38.470 --> 00:21:41.170 Is there a health risk? And does it violate the 412 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:44.170 spirit of the sport? And I think coffee, you can 413 00:21:44.190 --> 00:21:46.380 put a check in all three of those boxes for coffee. 414 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:54.349 And so, so, marijuana and other drugs also apparently but 415 00:21:54.529 --> 00:21:55.569 they're outlawed. 416 00:21:56.349 --> 00:21:59.390 Yeah it's a huge disparity i think and and one 417 00:21:59.410 --> 00:22:01.519 that people are really looking at much more closely now 418 00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:04.259 and again i think you know the other things you 419 00:22:04.279 --> 00:22:06.460 have to have two of the three criteria one is 420 00:22:06.539 --> 00:22:08.799 it violates the spirit of the sport one is it 421 00:22:08.859 --> 00:22:11.589 poses risk to the athlete and three i mean not 422 00:22:11.609 --> 00:22:14.000 in this order It enhances athletic performance. 423 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:16.079 The spirit of the sport is I want to be 424 00:22:16.440 --> 00:22:19.009 as best as I possibly can be. That's the spirit 425 00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.569 of this. Faster, higher, stronger. That's the whole freaking point. 426 00:22:21.630 --> 00:22:21.789 Yeah. 427 00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:23.390 It's the mantra.

428 00:22:23.470 --> 00:22:24.750 Don't get me started on this. 429 00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:29.299 I thought the spirit of the sport was. I don't 430 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.619 care if I win or lose if I smoke this weed. 431 00:22:32.660 --> 00:22:36.359 That's a new thing. That's the new Olympic motto. 432 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:40.490 I'm going to smoke this weed and not give a damn. 433 00:22:40.509 --> 00:22:42.650 No, here's what you do. You put a couch instead 434 00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:47.349 of that rolling camera along the 100 meters and you 435 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:49.450 sit on the couch and watch other people race while 436 00:22:49.549 --> 00:22:54.730 you smoke. Different kind of Olympics. Stacey, before we take 437 00:22:54.779 --> 00:23:00.000 a break, what about the sports where you can't be 438 00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:03.519 excited and pent up for it because you need the 439 00:23:03.619 --> 00:23:07.450 stability of precision, such as in the pistol shooting or 440 00:23:07.490 --> 00:23:13.890 in archery. Can we say that cannabis enhances your performance 441 00:23:14.430 --> 00:23:19.289 because it settles your physiology in a way that doesn't 442 00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:20.910 make you nervous and then miss your target? 443 00:23:21.230 --> 00:23:23.700 I would actually take the opposite perspective, which is that 444 00:23:23.740 --> 00:23:26.119 cannabis isn't one thing and it doesn't have one effect 445 00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:29.380 for all people, right? Some chemovars or cultivars or products 446 00:23:29.460 --> 00:23:32.160 are actually in some ways stimulating for people and they 447 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.349 feel more energized. They feel you've, the term is euphorogenic. I, 448 00:23:35.369 --> 00:23:37.089 you know, I want to make, I want to do, 449 00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:39.390 I want to, I think we talked about this once before. 450 00:23:40.069 --> 00:23:43.250 So that wouldn't necessarily, you know, sort of support the 451 00:23:43.269 --> 00:23:45.750 point of settling. It would actually sort of go against 452 00:23:46.029 --> 00:23:49.150 when people feel really blah or down, they often use 453 00:23:49.210 --> 00:23:52.769 a little cannabis that might be a product or a 454 00:23:53.009 --> 00:23:57.549 strain or chemovar that, influences or increases their energy. So 455 00:23:57.670 --> 00:24:00.150 that would argue against that. Not all products are the same. 456 00:24:00.170 --> 00:24:02.009 Not all people are the same. And the ways that 457 00:24:02.049 --> 00:24:05.750 you use these products absolutely dictates the outcome. Okay. 458 00:24:05.769 --> 00:24:11.269 So the takeaway is weed is highly chemically complex and 459 00:24:11.430 --> 00:24:17.849 you can't generalize its effects as a product without thinking 460 00:24:17.890 --> 00:24:21.990 more precisely about the biochemistry of each of the molecules. 461 00:24:22.289 --> 00:24:24.650 That's exactly right. It's not one thing and it shouldn't be. 462 00:24:24.789 --> 00:24:25.690 One size does. 463 00:24:25.549 --> 00:24:30.349 Not fit all here. Yeah, but to my point, if 464 00:24:30.430 --> 00:24:33.869 there's some sports where you need to be calm relative 465 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:36.529 to other sports where you need to be up, the 466 00:24:36.670 --> 00:24:39.589 same drug could help you in one and harm you 467 00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:40.950 in another, your performance. 468 00:24:41.710 --> 00:24:44.130 I think that would be true across multiple classes, yes. 469 00:24:44.410 --> 00:24:50.619 Okay, so enhanced performance doesn't always mean faster, higher, stronger, 470 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:52.140 it can mean more laid back. 471 00:24:52.539 --> 00:24:57.259 Again, direct versus indirect effects, right? 472 00:24:57.319 --> 00:24:58.980 Exactly. We've got to take a quick break, but when 473 00:24:59.000 --> 00:25:02.599 we come back, more with Stacey Gruber, our marijuana expert 474 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:05.480 up at the Harvard Medical School. And we're going to 475 00:25:05.569 --> 00:25:09.369 see what the future of sports legislation looks like in 476 00:25:09.410 --> 00:25:15.329 the face of new signs or not on StarTalk. We're back. 477 00:25:16.069 --> 00:25:20.130 Third and final segment for StarTalk Sports Edition. all about 478 00:25:20.190 --> 00:25:22.890 marijuana in sports. And of course we can't do this 479 00:25:23.369 --> 00:25:27.130 without the singular expert out there who thinks about this, 480 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:32.299 who measures people's brains, who has all the fluency necessary 481 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:37.000 to settle these arguments, Dr. Stacey Gruber. Again, welcome back, Stacey. 482 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:43.119 And continuing our deep dive into this, what is gonna 483 00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:46.339 happen with the future of sports legislation in the face 484 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:51.970 of your research, or more broadly research into the chemistry 485 00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:55.069 that might help us perform, but if not, it might 486 00:25:55.089 --> 00:25:59.200 help us recover from injury for having attempted to perform. 487 00:25:59.779 --> 00:26:01.880 Great question. And I wish I knew more about how 488 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.900 these agencies made their decisions. In terms of the scientific literature, 489 00:26:06.019 --> 00:26:09.180 it is constantly evolving. Every day we have new reports, right, 490 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:15.380 on different constituents or different approaches to addressing different symptoms 491 00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.539 or conditions using cannabis for medical purposes. How does that 492 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.839 dovetail with our elite athletes and what they may or 493 00:26:21.859 --> 00:26:23.529 may not be using it for? Should there be a 494 00:26:23.569 --> 00:26:26.670 distinction in terms of what they're using and how? I 495 00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:28.349 think a lot of people are

very interested in this 496 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:31.150 and for good reason. It's important to be up to 497 00:26:31.170 --> 00:26:34.450 date and to let science guide the policies, to allow 498 00:26:34.549 --> 00:26:36.259 people to live the way that they live and to 499 00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:40.519 understand if certain things are very comparable. It's really difficult 500 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:42.500 for people to understand why one thing would be banned 501 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:43.299 and another. 502 00:26:44.910 --> 00:26:48.150 Is there a comprehensive study that's done or being done 503 00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:52.009 that lets us know exactly how cannabis will affect us? 504 00:26:52.890 --> 00:26:54.690 I think there are lots of different studies that are 505 00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.970 currently underway that look at different aspects. But part of 506 00:26:58.019 --> 00:27:01.839 the problem is that cannabis remains illegal at the federal level. 507 00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:05.119 So doing research, depending on the type of research questions 508 00:27:05.140 --> 00:27:07.420 you want to ask, is not as easy as you think. 509 00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:10.519 And when we're talking about anything that is a cannabis 510 00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:13.920 chemo bar or cultivar, And its effect on whether it's 511 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.299 athletic performance or all sorts of things, there's stuff that 512 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:18.460 we know, and there's an awful lot that we don't know. 513 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:21.700 The question will be, where does the intersection of some 514 00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:25.240 kind of benefit versus some kind of performance enhancement get made? 515 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:26.769 I think that's a bigger question. 516 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:31.170 So in 2020, Neil, the NFL, the NBA, Major League Baseball, 517 00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:36.250 and hockey all said no suspension if you test positive 518 00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:39.809 for cannabis out of season. Now, in season, they said 519 00:27:39.849 --> 00:27:44.420 you get a fine. Now, they obviously have moved away 520 00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:50.490 from the WADA, cannabinoids, bad, not happening, you're banned. So 521 00:27:50.930 --> 00:27:54.509 they must be using some kind of research, some kind. 522 00:27:54.250 --> 00:27:55.430 Of … Yes, somebody's plugged into them. 523 00:27:55.710 --> 00:27:59.349 Yes. So we are at an elite professional level saying, 524 00:28:00.109 --> 00:28:03.970 that's cool, but we're going to stick you on the 525 00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:07.740 naughty step with a big fine. But with WADA, it's 526 00:28:07.779 --> 00:28:10.980 an outright ban. So there seems to be a lag here. 527 00:28:12.029 --> 00:28:16.210 between what's happening here in the US and globally for WADA. 528 00:28:16.289 --> 00:28:18.170 And I think there might be a reason, but I'd 529 00:28:18.210 --> 00:28:20.569 like to hear what the doctor's thinking is. 530

00:28:20.650 --> 00:28:24.250 And if it's NFL, NBA, MLB, and NFL, that's the 531 00:28:24.269 --> 00:28:27.369 whole kit and the caboodle right there. Especially the caboodle, 532 00:28:27.529 --> 00:28:28.130 it's all in there. 533 00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:33.529 Highly technical term, the caboodle. Don't forget the caboodle. You know, 534 00:28:33.549 --> 00:28:35.650 I think it's a great point. And I think that, again, 535 00:28:35.789 --> 00:28:39.569 there is a sort of a philosophy and an approach 536 00:28:39.609 --> 00:28:43.190 to this. Remember that cannabidiol or CBD is not prohibited, 537 00:28:43.369 --> 00:28:45.990 but they changed the lower limit of detection from, I 538 00:28:46.009 --> 00:28:48.809 think it was 15 nanograms per mil to 150 for 539 00:28:48.849 --> 00:28:51.549 exactly this reason, I believe, to make sure that they 540 00:28:51.589 --> 00:28:55.720 were only looking for what they've considered current use as 541 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.480 in right before competition. How that gets determined is a 542 00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:03.779 pretty slippery slope, I think. And to your point, Gary, 543 00:29:04.059 --> 00:29:06.059 it's a very, very important distinction when we talk about 544 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.480 global versus more local decisions that are being made here 545 00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:09.900 in the United States. Absolutely. 546 00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:17.609 And so I would say, though, I might conjecture that 547 00:29:17.690 --> 00:29:20.609 part of this is due to the fact that we 548 00:29:20.650 --> 00:29:26.019 have decriminalized marijuana on a state level pretty much everywhere, 549 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.000 not to mention the however many teen, I don't know 550 00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:31.859 if it's 13 or 19, the last I checked, states 551 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.910 that say, yo man, you can go ahead and do this. 552 00:29:35.210 --> 00:29:37.609 So I think the removing of- It's not what. 553 00:29:37.529 --> 00:29:41.579 The legislation says. I didn't- Go ahead. That's the way 554 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:42.059 I read it. 555 00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:45.880 I read it as, hey, Chuck, go ahead. 556 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:46.740 Go ahead. 557 00:29:46.980 --> 00:29:49.380 But I think when you strip it from the penal 558 00:29:49.460 --> 00:29:55.789 code that you allow people to say, okay, and you 559 00:29:55.809 --> 00:30:00.490 allow sports- organizations to say, hey, you know, if this 560 00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:03.789 is not illegal, if it is not like a class 561 00:30:04.089 --> 00:30:07.329 felony or whatever it was, it's not criminal, then who 562 00:30:07.390 --> 00:30:09.049 are we to say, like, you can't do it? 563 00:30:09.589 --> 00:30:12.109 So what really should be happening here, at the risk 564 00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:18.809 of being Captain Obvious, is governmental legislation should actually lead 565 00:30:19.130 --> 00:30:24.490 the scientific enlightenment on this and then let

the official 566 00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:27.539 sports organizations follow it. If you're going to have sports 567 00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.519 organizations allowing it, but in principle, they could have allowed 568 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:34.819 it decades ago. Right. If the science was there, Stacey, 569 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:39.900 if municipal federal legislation is at the core of this 570 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.910 that everyone then reacts to, what access do you have 571 00:30:43.430 --> 00:30:46.089 to the writing of laws and members of Congress? And 572 00:30:46.150 --> 00:30:49.430 shouldn't you have a seat at the table there? 573 00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:51.470 You know, I think a lot of us are trying 574 00:30:51.509 --> 00:30:53.150 to have a seat. And I don't know that that's 575 00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:55.049 really the only pivotal point here. I think there are 576 00:30:55.109 --> 00:30:57.990 multiple points that are critical. You know, I think when 577 00:30:58.029 --> 00:31:01.029 you are involved in the conversation, you have a better 578 00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:04.210 chance of seeing things done comprehensively in a way that 579 00:31:04.250 --> 00:31:07.430 is centrist, that makes sense, that isn't motivated by other, 580 00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:11.190 you know, let's just say agenda items. I think it's very, 581 00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:13.470 very important. It's important to have. 582 00:31:13.490 --> 00:31:16.319 Emphasis on centrist, right? I mean, there's a point where 583 00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:19.440 you can land that is scientifically reasonable and sensible. 584 00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:22.319 It's, you know, let science be your guide. There is 585 00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:24.619 truth in science, right? We know that. And not everybody 586 00:31:24.640 --> 00:31:26.640 believes that, but I think there is truth in science. 587 00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:28.059 And if you allow. 588 00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:30.309 Science and- You don't think there is, you know there is, 589 00:31:30.349 --> 00:31:33.170 and we all know there is. If you allow- You 590 00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:36.650 don't have to have soft vocabulary on this show, okay? 591 00:31:36.809 --> 00:31:40.130 If you allow the science- Thank you. To take its 592 00:31:40.230 --> 00:31:44.650 place and allow decisions to be based on evidence and 593 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.730 not rhetoric or other things. 594 00:31:47.970 --> 00:31:48.470 Politics. 595 00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:52.369 I think it's a different landscape. It's a terribly difficult 596 00:31:52.390 --> 00:31:54.730 landscape to navigate with regard to cannabis in this country, 597 00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:57.250 And across the globe, but especially in this country, the 598 00:31:57.289 --> 00:32:00.829 discord between federal and state regulations, and it's created a 599 00:32:00.910 --> 00:32:01.769 lot of confusion. 600 00:32:02.089 --> 00:32:06.750 If we think the problem lies with WADA, not water, WADA, 601 00:32:07.369 --> 00:32:11.390 World Anti-Doping Agency, the clue may be in the first 602 00:32:11.609 --> 00:32:17.940 of those words, world. Because as Chuck's highlighted, cannabis is 603 00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:19.920 pretty legal in just about every state. 604 00:32:20.660 --> 00:32:21.559 But world. 605 00:32:22.329 --> 00:32:25.190 hasn't all come to that conclusion yet. There are countries 606 00:32:25.250 --> 00:32:28.619 around the world where marijuana is illegal. And so they 607 00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:32.640 have a problem that is so multifaceted, they are not 608 00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:34.460 probably able to solve it. 609 00:32:34.460 --> 00:32:38.240 In one simple move. Because they are international, they need 610 00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:44.009 some international sensitivities. They can't all be... In Stacey's lab, 611 00:32:44.170 --> 00:32:44.930 that's what we're saying. 612 00:32:44.990 --> 00:32:47.359 Wow, that's a very good point, Gary. I didn't even 613 00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:50.519 consider that. So I have the answer. We must get 614 00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:55.549 the leaders of that country high. 615 00:32:55.990 --> 00:32:57.269 Why didn't I think of that? 616 00:32:57.289 --> 00:32:59.190 Diplomatic solution? I love it. There you go. 617 00:33:01.099 --> 00:33:06.839 The next UN General Council, I will be there. What's up, y'all? 618 00:33:06.859 --> 00:33:11.210 Handing out the... The next UN General. 619 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:12.609 Meeting is going to be held in a park across 620 00:33:12.650 --> 00:33:13.170 the street. 621 00:33:14.410 --> 00:33:17.059 Wait, if you got them all high... That would end 622 00:33:17.230 --> 00:33:19.539 all war. There'd be more solved by that. 623 00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:21.960 Instead of things like a G20 summit, you could ask 624 00:33:21.980 --> 00:33:23.539 for an OG20 summit. 625 00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:25.359 Yo, nice. And it wouldn't be OG20, it'd be OG420. 626 00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:25.619 What? 627 00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:26.059 What? 628 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:26.819 Is that tough? 629 00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:32.599 That's right, that's right. 630 00:33:32.619 --> 00:33:39.440 We just solved world peace here on StarTalk. There you go. Yeah. Dang. 631 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:41.460 Yes, people need to get on board for sure and 632 00:33:41.559 --> 00:33:44.279 at least come together and review what we know, what 633 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.039 we don't know, and then whatever we don't know, we 634 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.460 should address specific empirically sound research studies to help clarify. 635 00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.019 Because Stacey, I say this because I've been invited to 636 00:33:53.319 --> 00:33:58.160 various committees and commissions that serve Washington interests because I 637 00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:01.240 have expertise that they value. And so it's not a 638 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.819 weird thing for someone with expertise to be brought into 639

00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:09.920 the room. And so I'm gonna vote you into Congress. 640 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:13.420 How about that? It'll be on the weed ticket. 641 00:34:13.699 --> 00:34:21.139 It's a green ballot. I have testified at Congress previously 642 00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:27.690 and I very often contributed. And I continue to do 643 00:34:27.730 --> 00:34:30.250 that in lots of different ways. I'm happy to continue that. 644 00:34:30.809 --> 00:34:33.650 So forgive me for even thinking that had not already happened. 645 00:34:33.670 --> 00:34:35.389 No, no, no. But to your point, to your point, 646 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:37.250 we really need a little bit more science and a 647 00:34:37.250 --> 00:34:40.460 little less rhetoric to help guide the discussions, both in 648 00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:41.699 this country and across the globe. 649 00:34:42.019 --> 00:34:47.639 Well, I think Chuck solved that. So I think part 650 00:34:47.659 --> 00:34:50.320 of the problem is, regardless of what Congress does, there 651 00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:53.059 are influential politicians who might think one way or another 652 00:34:53.119 --> 00:34:55.280 about it. And they have their followers who just do 653 00:34:55.300 --> 00:34:56.079 what they say, right? 654 00:34:56.380 --> 00:34:59.500 Even our president, actually. Even our president, who I think 655 00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:02.119 has done a great job in shepherding us through this 656 00:35:02.179 --> 00:35:03.019 COVID crisis. 657 00:35:03.500 --> 00:35:05.460 Thinking about the science. Thinking about the science. 658 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:09.619 He's let the science lead him. He is adamantly opposed 659 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:13.889 to marijuana being decriminalized on a federal level. 660 00:35:14.010 --> 00:35:19.289 Because he's the reefer madness generation. That's why. That's why. 661 00:35:20.489 --> 00:35:22.250 I just love the term reefer madness. 662 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.320 So are we still in the wake of the war 663 00:35:26.380 --> 00:35:26.880 on drugs? 664 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:29.239 Oh, good question. 665 00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:32.420 And we're waiting to get out of that wash to 666 00:35:32.659 --> 00:35:33.119 find us. 667 00:35:33.139 --> 00:35:39.139 Because that spills into sports committees. Yes. 668 00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:41.699 I think a lot of folks, again, are taking a 669 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.590 much closer look these days. But again, there is the 670 00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:49.170 Office of National Drug Control policy and the ideas and 671 00:35:49.349 --> 00:35:54.829 the sort of scientific evidence that allow people to make 672 00:35:54.909 --> 00:35:57.699 good sound decisions needs to be up to date and 673 00:35:57.739 --> 00:36:00.179 it needs to be read and understood. 674 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:01.960 What a concept. 675 00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:02.539 Yeah. 676 00:36:02.559 --> 00:36:05.719 Tell me about it. 677 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:06.380 Wow. 678

00:36:06.400 --> 00:36:08.280 Can we just extend that. 679 00:36:08.110 --> 00:36:12.130 To everything that we do? It's just everything that we do. 680 00:36:12.329 --> 00:36:13.909 Let me, let me ask this though, because I know 681 00:36:13.929 --> 00:36:14.730 we're running short on time. 682 00:36:14.750 --> 00:36:15.449 We're running really short. 683 00:36:15.530 --> 00:36:19.170 I know we're running really short. Um, I have seen 684 00:36:19.250 --> 00:36:22.320 people get very upset and heated in this debate. And 685 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.940 they talk about the fact that marijuana is indeed addictive. 686 00:36:26.260 --> 00:36:29.039 And the reason why it should not be allowed for use... 687 00:36:29.079 --> 00:36:31.780 Or as a gateway drug as well. Right. Because you 688 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.000 can become addicted to it. And that it is indeed 689 00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:38.360 a gateway. All of those things, those tropes that we've heard, 690 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.550 can you just talk about it? I don't care if 691 00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:45.010 it's true or not, just from a scientific... What does that. 692 00:36:44.710 --> 00:36:47.309 Mean, Chuck? You mean answer whether or not it's true? 693 00:36:47.510 --> 00:36:49.110 What the hell kind of... It's a. 694 00:36:49.070 --> 00:36:51.389 Giant essay type question. I don't care whether it's true 695 00:36:51.409 --> 00:36:52.949 or not, but can you talk about it? 696 00:36:52.989 --> 00:36:55.809 Yeah, exactly. Compare and contrast. 697 00:36:55.989 --> 00:37:00.679 Really quickly, two schools of thought. Is cannabis or marijuana addictive? 698 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.860 There are certainly people who wind up with what we 699 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:05.219 call cannabis use disorder. In the old days, we would 700 00:37:05.260 --> 00:37:07.980 call it abuse versus dependence. Now we have a new term, 701 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:11.550 cannabis use disorder. And the numbers of individuals who use 702 00:37:11.590 --> 00:37:14.449 cannabis who wind up with cannabis use disorder vary depending 703 00:37:14.489 --> 00:37:17.130 on the study that you're looking at. And it's really 704 00:37:17.170 --> 00:37:19.159 important to keep in mind that you have to actually 705 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:22.260 meet the people who are using the cannabis and talk 706 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.719 to them about their use, as opposed to just assuming 707 00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:27.010 that because they use daily, they must have a use 708 00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:31.030 disorder first and foremost. Number two, gateway phenomenon, gateway hypothesis, 709 00:37:31.050 --> 00:37:33.789 gateway theory. The use of cannabis will obviously lead to 710 00:37:33.829 --> 00:37:36.130 the use of harder drugs because people who use cannabis 711 00:37:36.289 --> 00:37:39.110 or people who use heroin often used cannabis first. That 712 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:41.719 doesn't mean that the use of cannabis led to heroin use. 713 00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:44.400 In terms of the receptors in your brain, again, these 714 00:37:44.420 --> 00:37:48.070 things get turned on In terms of exposure to certain 715 00:37:48.110 --> 00:37:51.510 substances like drugs or sugar or sex or all sorts 716 00:37:51.570 --> 00:37:54.630 of things. So the gateway hypothesis is one that I 717 00:37:54.670 --> 00:37:56.760 think most people have sort of let go of at 718 00:37:56.780 --> 00:38:00.559 this point. There's not really great evidence suggesting that one 719 00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:02.969 leads to another. Is there an overlap in those who 720 00:38:02.989 --> 00:38:07.730 use drugs? let's say, quote, harder drugs who have used cannabis? Sure. 721 00:38:08.070 --> 00:38:10.880 And why is that? Usually that's more a factor of 722 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.860 their sort of psychosocial experiences and people who are. 723 00:38:14.300 --> 00:38:17.199 Or just practicality. You know, if my first drug is 724 00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.889 probably not going to be heroin, okay? It's going to 725 00:38:19.909 --> 00:38:23.690 be some other drug. So B implies A, but A 726 00:38:23.750 --> 00:38:26.690 does not... give you B, right? In that case. 727 00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:28.969 Sort of the transitive property, A equals B, B equals C. 728 00:38:28.989 --> 00:38:30.849 So A equals C, but not in this case. 729 00:38:30.889 --> 00:38:31.449 Not in this case. 730 00:38:31.469 --> 00:38:33.869 I don't think there's a huge amount of support for 731 00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:38.019 absolutely clear cannabis leads to the use of harder drugs. 732 00:38:39.099 --> 00:38:41.300 I don't think that that's really been well put. 733 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:43.559 Okay. All right, guys, we got to end it there. 734 00:38:43.579 --> 00:38:45.820 This has been wonderful, Stacey, to have you back on. 735 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:48.539 My pleasure. And this conversation is not going to end here. 736 00:38:48.599 --> 00:38:52.000 You know it. All right. Marijuana is with us to stay. 737 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:54.619 And it's going to show up in all kinds of ways. 738 00:38:54.679 --> 00:38:56.719 And you don't just have insights on sports. You have 739 00:38:56.739 --> 00:39:00.619 insights into all facets of society where marijuana could manifest 740 00:39:00.699 --> 00:39:03.570 and all of its chemical derivatives. So anyhow, I just 741 00:39:03.590 --> 00:39:05.269 want to thank you for being on StarTalk again. 742 00:39:05.289 --> 00:39:06.170 Thanks for having me. 743 00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:08.570 And Gary, Chuck, always good to have you here as 744 00:39:08.610 --> 00:39:11.170 my co-host. Pleasure, Neil. Thank you. Always a pleasure. All right. 745 00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:14.289 This has been StarTalk Sports Edition, all about cannabis in sports. 746 00:39:14.489 --> 00:39:17.880 I'm Neil deGrasse Tyson, as always, bidding you to keep 747 00:39:17.909 --> 00:39:18.300 looking up.