Full Transcript for The Graceful Revolution: Leading From the Heart. With Dr. Melissa Bird

that's looking for a quick marriage, I'm like, hey, like I I'm like, I always call myself a gorilla podcaster. So I suppose I'm also now like a member of the a member of the gorilla clergy. Maybe that's what I'm doing. Dr. Melissa Bird: That's amazing. And I was not raised in in the Christian church at all. I w you Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: know, I'm from Utah and not raised LDS. And so you know, I feel like just because of who I am as a human being, I push back against any form of faith at all. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Christian faith in particular, but I really Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I think it's actually one of the most beautiful parts of my story is like this idea of of how I came to church and how I came to faith. And then all of a sudden they're like, you need to be preaching. And I was like, no, I do not think so. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: And I'm actually writing that story right now for an anthology that I'm a part of. But yeah. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Tabitha Zeigler: That's awesome. Well, and you and I are also going to be participating in a function soon. So I'll let you talk about that a bit. Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah, I'm super excited. We're both part of the Wild Goose Festival, which is, by the way, like it's like been on my vision board forever. Like I Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I had a vision board years ago that I put it on that I wanted to speak Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: there. And so I'm super excited that it's finally coming around. But the Wild Goose Festival is a really a social justice festival for Christian folks to come together and gather and really connect around social justice, Jesus, which is my favorite. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Flippin' tables, Jesus. Dr. Melissa Bird: And I'm so excited. Flipping tables, Jesus. Jesus was like the first rebel, I'm telling you. And I I I said Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, he's like the original OG. Dr. Melissa Bird: I said to Carlos yesterday, because I would did an interview with Carlos on this podcast yesterday. And I said to Carlos yesterday, I was like, I was like, you know, this this the the whitewash version of Jesus that we've all been bought and sold and I just am so glad that I understand Jesus in a completely different way than I ever did before. Because like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I kept being told on the campaign trail. I'll get back to Wild Goose in a second, but I keep I kept getting Tabitha Zeigler: we have time. Dr. Melissa Bird: I kept getting told on the campaign trail, like, you're so radical. Like these ideas are Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: so radical. And I'm all sitting here going, huh. Caring about your community and loving your neighbor is a radical idea. How did we get here? Like how did Tabitha Zeigler: You're like, I haven't even gotten started yet. Dr. Melissa Bird: I well, no, but I also don't consider myself a radical at all. Tabitha

Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: At all. Like I don't like that term. I never have. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: it really actually bothers me a lot because I feel like Tabitha Zeigler: Really? Dr. Melissa Bird: scary Yeah, it bugs me. Because I feel like it's really polarizing. Like I think the pr the reason people Tabitha Zeigler: I see that. Dr. Melissa Bird: call you a radical is is to make people think that you there's something wrong with you. And and If if loving my community and being invested in my community and wanting to do better by everybody, my tagline was a better life for all because that's just how Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I live my life. Like if that is a radical notion, then we have a lot of problems. Like we are in trouble. Right. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, I see it slightly differently. Well, yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: And that's why I love what we're doing at Wild Goose. go ahead. Tabitha Zeigler: No, no, you're good. Like I see it slightly differently, but I I guess it's probably also right because like even though I may not necessarily identify 100% as such, people outwardly see me as white. So I'm a very aware that this white face can walk into spaces and have conversations with people that other people can't have. And so I've tried really hard to embody that, right? And I've gotten a lot of pushback for it. And coming from a predominantly, you know, Christian area, like church on every corner, three times a week, all that sort of thing. And then to Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm. Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: watch the rise of white Christian nationalism, it's like infected the highest parts of at least the Indiana government. Now I'm watching it same for federal government. You know, Indiana has like very deep racist roots in the clan and you know all of these things. So I'm watching all of this stuff develop. And so I sort of see this like radical quote as like a badge of honor because I'm actively pushing back against all of that, which I do think is the way that Jesus, right? Like what would Jesus do? Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: And walking the walk, like being a person of the faith, like like embodying what I was always taught in church are the fundamentals of Christianity, right? Like take care of your neighbor, the least of the all of the things. And so yeah, Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: I I'm with you. I'm just like, this should be the baseline. Like I don't understand why people like Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah, I don't like if we are if we are a cr quote unquote Christian nation, right? Then it is Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: the baseline. That is the baseline. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: And it's just it this whole thing is so weird to me. There's everything is weird to me these days. But I'm excited that we're doing this panel on Christian nationalism because I think bringing this conversation to other Christian folks and really helping people get Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: excited about pushing back against Christian nationalism, I think is really Like that is the thing that I'm most excited about right now is like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: how do we help engage people and help people really understand like that the if there is no other moment than right now Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: for us to be really fighting against what is taking place in this country. Because if it's Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Well, and I Dr. Melissa Bird: being done in the name of of Christianity, then we have a problem. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Well, I think it's exceptionally special, right? Because on the panel we have you, you know, indigenous. We have one of our other sisters who, you know, is black American that has deep roots in the South. That's her family's been here forever. So I think that's very, very special, right? Because you have at least three people that we know each other. I would say we know each other well. But we all have very, very deep roots in this country. And to Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: have, you know, an indigenous person that's also a person of faith, you know, whatever your faith looks like, like nobody's here to judge, right? But like it doesn't get more American than that. And to have you be there, like I'm honored. I'm like fucking like I mean, I would love to see a day when all parts of our government is actively represented by by the actual American people and who better to represent Americans than the first Americans, right? Like Dr. Melissa Bird: We are not the first Americans. Uh-uh. I'm gonna push back on that. We are not the first Americans. Tabitha Zeigler: Go ahead. Go ahead and push back. Dr. Melissa Bird: There are five hundred and seventy-three sovereign nations in this country. Tabitha Zeigler: Of course. Dr. Melissa Bird: We are not Americans. We are sovereign nations. So each tribe, Tabitha Zeigler: Let's let's rephrase them. So Dr. Melissa Bird: each but I want your listeners to hear this and to get a clearer Tabitha Zeigler: Absolutely. Dr. Melissa Bird: understanding. So this this place. was not the United States of America 500 years ago. It was it was a p a a land mass that had five hundred and seventy three different nations on it. And I think it's really important for people to understand this because until we really truly start to understand colonization, not in an academic sense but in a real lived experiential sense. Then we won't be able to disrupt these structures of genocide and white supremacy that have really had been the foothold of our government. And I love our democracy. I really do. I think it's a fascinating the three branches of government, the way we have created this democracy. I think it's very beautiful. And also, if we don't understand how this all took place, then we we don't understand that that. For every single one of us who is native, we don't understand the governmental structures

of sovereignty. And there's a really great book that I wish every single human being in this country would read called The Rediscovery of America by Ned Blackcock. And it is one of the greatest books that has ever been written on native history in the United States. And and I I think it's it's I think it's so important because this is why I ran for Congress, because we do need more native representation in Congress. But the reason we don't have that is willful and intentional and an act of genocide. Right? The reason we represent a minority in Congress isn't because there's not a whole bunch of us that you know would like to serve. It's it's this willful intentional structure that is meant to invisibilize. indigenous people. And and really, truthfully, until we understand that that these structures of enrollment, like these questions of how native are you, like all of those things Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: are actually colonizing federal, you know, the enrollment is a federal structure that was created to figure out how quickly we were killing off every, you know, the only good Indian is a dead Indian. And so You know, so there's this really another really great book by Deb Miranda called Bad Indians. And there's like a whole bunch of us who call ourselves bad Indians because we're still here. Right. And and I think that I want people to understand that even though yes, I am a citizen of the United States of America, when we are looking at these structures, we are not the first Americans. We are the first people. It's very different. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. And I that's why I mean what I said should have said. Let's rephrase because I should not have said it that way. and a lot of people are not aware of like the indigenous element into the structuring of our government and in how we took things, like forefathers from indigenous peoples that were already here. That we sort of, you know, maybe I'm not using the correct language, so feel free to correct me. But the way I see it is sort of like co-opting, right? Like Benjamin Franklin took a look at the Hodenasote and was like, hm. Because the way that I understand it, you know, a large part of our, you know, constitute like the actual language, the structure, the forming is based off of the Haudenosaunee tribes. Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. I think there's definitely some of that there. And it's even more co I like I didn't even understand how complicated it is until I read Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: that book. And I read that book because it's part of the curriculum here at Oregon State University. And I wanted to have a better understanding. That book, I mean, I read a lot of Indigenous literature and I read a lot Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: of history about this country. That book Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: is quite frankly the single best. book that I have ever read about how this country came to be and how it impacted Indigenous people. Like it is, it is so complicated. Like it's Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: it's so complicated because you had the, you had the, I don't want to go too in the weeds because I really just want everybody to read it, but you actually a lot of the pressure for the revolution was because of the French and the concern about the French taking more land away from indigenous people and actually having more of a foothold down here in what we now call the United States out of Canada. Like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: the these, I mean, it's the just the time that that Ned Blackhawk spent on understanding Washington's decision making process Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: was so fascinating to me. And I think that and it ha of course it's the same things we have now it had to do with water. It had to do with land. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: It had to do with starving out the indigenous people. It had to do with separating families, like separating Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: the men from the, you know, killing the elders, separating the men from the women and the children. Like that's that's like, you know, boarding schools and trail of tears one-on-one. Like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I I just think I think the thing that is so interesting to me, especially about this rise of Christian nationalism, is it's actually always been here. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: We just managed for a really long time. To I think especially post World War II to focus on so many other things that we where we are at today. I I have a deep concern, you know, the American Indian Religious Freedom Act wasn't passed until 1978. I was four years old when that happened. so it was literally illegal for indigenous people to even practice their ceremonies until then. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: that's that's I was four. That's my lifetime, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: right? My dad committed suicide in 1980. He never heard drumming. He never went to Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: a powwow. He never, he was never connected to any of those things that are really important to me in my life now. And so I just think we have to understand that this is actually very what we're talking, like the fact that you and I can even have this conversation right now in 2026 is new. This Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: is not, we have not been talking about Lamback forever, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: or reparations Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: or any of the things we talk about with with people who are descended from slaves, we don't we haven't been talking about this forever. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: We've been talking about this for a blip on the radar, right? I mean, and the fact that you and I are even connected in this way is also like a new and radical thing. Like this is my

favorite part of the internet is this part, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I could do without a whole lot of the rest of it. But like the fact that I can connect with people and have conversations like this, I also think is really important in building community. And I think that's what we're we're just so deeply missing those things. when we when we get sucked into well, I know best, right? And and Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I know what's up. And you know, this either or zero sum game we're playing in right now as a country, I think it's it's pulling us away from ourselves and who we are and it's pulling us away from the planet, quite frankly. It's really isolating Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: us into a space where we don't remember how intricately connected we are. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. You know, I always tell people I'm an interesting beast, which is true. you know, rate being raised in Indiana, you know, in the heartland as they call it, farming community, there are a lot of people here that, you know, they're either farmers, hunters, fishermen, all the things. And I learned pretty early on. But then it was accentuated through my congressional run that, you know, the things that we have in common are the things that we should be talking about. And so I was sort of drilling down on things like water rights, data centers, land. Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: Maybe I wouldn't go as far in every conversation to say land back because I I knew that there was There was like certain coupling of words that people would just shut down. But in other ways, I would push really hard, right? Like if I thought I could get away with it, I would say it. Same with like LGBTQ plus rights or trans rights. Like no one in Indiana was saying trans rights anything. And here I was over here, like from a very rural community, being like, listen, there was a time where we come from. That in my lifetime as well, all the older people were saying things like, right, you know, don't worry about what people are doing. Don't get involved in people's business. Don't get in in involved in people's bedrooms, who they sleep with, what religion they practice, or whatever. And so I had a grandfather that was also a veteran that I always say he was the first feminist I ever met. Because Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: he was very encouraging of all the women in the family, like, Yes, like learn it as much as you can so that you don't have to rely on a man. Because if you Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: have to be self-reliant on a man and you can't do things for yourself, then you're limiting your skill set to be able to take care of your children. And so along the way, as I found out, like supposedly parts of my family was indigenous, I was like, hmm. I think not all, but some of the men in my family were different. And I just had the benefit. Of having a grandfather would that would say things like that, right? And then it got me to thinking along the campaign trail with all the white Christian nationalism and all the crazy stuff. And I'm like, people are sort of like missing the forest for the trees here. It's like we don't have to go all in on every single thing to get people to I like identify with the fact that we're all humans and be like, right. Like I was notorious for saying. It's human rights for all. It cannot be human rights for some. And then if I could like inch my way into the crack that way, the crack of the door, and be like, right, we're all humans. It should be humanity for all. Then I could just little by little crack away at all these other arguments, like, right, well, technically, trans people are Americans and trans people are humans and they deserve rights. Same as Palestinians are humans. And they deserve right. Like, who are we to say, government by government, who decides like what human rights we should have or or who has fewer rights? And for me, what I did know about, you know, Indigenous history, I was like, in my, you know, autism brain, I was like, it's very clear to me that all of the bad things that we did to the indigenous community, I could see that being replicated. I'm not saying it's the exact same thing. I'm not at all trying to say that, but I'm just saying for those types of like pattern specified brains, I was like, this is like very, very clear. Like you have one group that's discriminating against another group. They're trying to kill them all off because they want the water and the land and obviously other things, mostly power, money, blah, blah, blah. But for me, I saw the same thing in the States. And I was like, the fact that we cannot or we refuse to actually have that conversation still. Is is sort of at the bedrock of the issue. Like the bedrock of a lot of our issues here is racism coupled by power, you know, a thirst for natural resources, land, water. And if we can all sort of start start to operate from from whatever ba baseline, right? But just say, hey, like we're all humans, we all need water, we'll like we all have to eat, like the these are shared values. Like, why are we letting these few people at the top try and manipulate us? Let us all fight it out and they want to create this massive serfdom for what? Like they don't even believe in anything. Dr. Melissa Bird: I don't know that that's necessarily true. I think they do believe in a lot of things, but a lot of those things are foundationally rooted in proximity to power and continuing to maintain power and control over people. Because the I mean, the reckoning we're in is that our democracy was founded on slavery and genocide. And a democracy that is founded on slavery and genocide is actually not, in fact, a democracy. It is a a You know, it's for the few. And if we are going to really start to connect with this idea of of the people, by the people, and for the people, that has to be all the people. It can't just be the special

white people, right? Or the special white men or whatever that is. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I think that also, this is why I love DNA. Like DNA tests are the best. Like, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: say what you will about them. If you have grown up with this for everybody who's listening to this, if you have grown up with a story that you are somehow native, somehow indigenous, you somehow in your bloodline have a relative who's a Cherokee princess, go Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: get your DNA done. It'll tell you right away. It's amazing. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: It's amazing what you learn. It's amazing what you learn when you do your DNA. It's Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: bananas. But I think that like I the thing that I think is just really remarkable about all of these ideas and this the way we are thinking about things, especially in 2026, is like I I think the thing that is so remarkable about where we're at as a nation is that we have all of this information, like Ned Blackhawk's book. Like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: we have indigenous studies programs at universities, we have, you know, black Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: studies programs at universities. We have all this Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: information available to us now. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: so I I feel like in running for Congress, one of the things that I really loved was being curious about people's lives, right? Like Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: wondering why people felt the way they felt. And I I think that is. That is the key to starting to understand each other. Well, how did you come to that conclusion? Why Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: do you believe that? What what are you what what thought process brought you to this idea that socialism is the most evil thing on the planet? Right. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: And that we nobody deserves health insurance unless they work for it. Like that coupling of health insurance with work that happened, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: especially under Reagan. Like, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Like those things have not been the way it is forever and ever. And I think this absolute belief that this is just how it's always been, if Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: we start to deconstruct that, that's how we start to actually acknowledge how all of us will benefit from everyone having access to resources. It's a very Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: different way of thinking. And I'm curious, you you said in the very beginning of our conversation. that you've been talking about racism and you've been getting a lot of Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: pushback. What is that about? Tabitha Zeigler: So I feel that because I think a lot of our issues are rooted in racism, like Dr. Melissa Bird: a hundred percent. Tabitha Zeigler: I was I was making these connections on my own, right? I was like, right. So the same people that hate women. Now, some may say they don't use the word hate. I've heard it. That's how I feel. But the same gentlemen that tend to hate women, hate black people, hate Hispanic people, hate trans people, hate gay people, like It goes down the line. It may be in differing degrees. You know, like some groups may take preference depending upon specific experience, right? Because obviously, we as people, we have experiences that can influence us, change us. But I was like, why? I I started to ask myself this question because I kept hearing these comments, right? And I was like, why is it? That the guys at the top of the totem pole, if you will, right? Like the guys that have access to all the things. Why do they honestly feel that they're being victimized, segregated in some fashion, when they have always, predominantly in this country, held power? I'm like, how how is it that one comes to the conclusion? And and I I'm not laughing because I think it's funny. I'm like genuinely curious. I'm like, if you've never really experienced any pushback, how do you come to the conclusion that your life is so hard by these other people that are having to fight to even enter the rooms that you were just granted access to? And I've been getting into a lot of arguments with People in my family even. My mom in particular. And she's like, Well, you know, we don't agree on a lot of things. And I'm like, Elaborate. 'Cause I just like I wanna try to understand you too. And she's like, Well, your dad's a white man. I was like, I get it. And and she's like, Well, yeah, like there's a lot of people like hating on white men right now and I was like, Listen, I need to get you people to unplug from the shit that you're watching to have a conversation with other normal people and then make your own conclusion. Like let's come, let's come to the critical thinking table. Now I think the reason that I'm different than some other people is because I, you know, went to college, I left this area, I had the opportunity to travel abroad, I had the opportunity to you know, experience different cultures, different languages, different people, all the things. That truly has made me a more open individual. And without those experiences, I most likely would probably not have arrived at some of the conclusions that I have. But because I've had exposure to other people, different ways of seeing things, different, you know, skin colors of people, I'm like we all bleed red, you know, like many more of us, irregardless of of color, background, whatever like we're working with a similar amount of money. You know, like the only difference between me and say someone because we're like right now we've got a lot of flooding in Indiana. The only real difference between me as a single white female of children and a black single female of children in Northwest Indiana is really the

lack of opportunity, right? Like when we start to segregate people and people don't have access to things, how are they ever going to achieve? Like I'm so pissed off right now by the things that are happening in Indiana. Like, people in Gary have not had power for like a week. And yet everybody's talking about Connorsville. Now, I'm not saying that Connorsville is like less significant. Like we've had flooding down there. It's been horrible. People have lost their houses and all the things. But like, how do you quantify grief? Right. Like, How do you say to yourself, these people over here are more worthy of serving than these people over here? And so as a Go ahead. Dr. Melissa Bird: I just I I want to say something about what you said about the lack of opportunity. Because I think it's I think it's really important. It's not just that it's not just lack of opportunity. It's it's literally that the way this country was founded, like it's woven into the DNA of the nation. It's not lack of opportunity, it's refusal to give any opportunity because you you as a A black woman, your whole entire purpose is to be enslaved. And we we still believe that as a country, even though we don't say it out loud now because it's too impolite, right? we that's what the the myth of the welfare cream queen is a perfect example of a a slave mentality that carries through generationally. And I I've but I listened to a really amazing podcast on Reconstruction that Malcolm Gladwell put together with President Obama that Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: they released. They released it a couple of months ago and I listened to it and fascinating, fascinating history. that that I didn't understand, like I didn't understand the the nuances of Reconstruction Tabitha Zeigler: Mm, mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: and why it didn't really work. And I I think that so often we end up in these sort of We wish that the people who are like our parents and our grandparents would change the way they think about people, right? But what Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: what I think we keep forgetting, and I say this as someone who is married to a military veteran, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Like it has taken I have known this man for 16 years, and I would say it's only been in the last year Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: that he has truly begun to understand. how these structures have been working for Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: the last 500 years. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: and I think that when we when we and I I would like it to be simpler. I would like it to be like, listen, mom, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you and we're gonna sit down with, you know, a couple trans folks and you're gonna get to know them. It's gonna be awesome. Right? Or like the Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: the vi the movie, the documentary that the black guy did about how he basically is become friends with a bunch of Klansmen and now they can see why being racist is super lame, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Right. Dr. Melissa Bird: But but I think that it's so much more complicated, not because of it's complicated to love everybody. What's complicated is we have been conditioned over Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: generations to believe the mythology about queer people, people of color, right? Women. Like it's just it's and it it it resides in every single one of us. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: It's not nobody is free of it until we start to deconstruct it within ourselves. And that's why, like when I talk about revolution, I talk, I actually teach a process called the art of the graceful revolution. And when I talk Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: about it, I talk about self-love, self-compassion, self-reflection. So that we can have love, compassion, and reflection for other people. And a really good example I have of this is that I was actually my own mother, who literally birthed me, gave birth to me. She and I, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: we should it was with during the big Harry and Megan kerfuffle and all the crap people were saying about Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Megan, you know, all the racist shit basically that people were saying about Megan and And the documentary had just come out about their, you know, how he'd been basically shunned by his family for being with a black woman and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? All the things. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: I'm talking to my mom, and my mom was buying into the lie that Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: she was just doing this for money. And I'm like, Mom, she has her own money. Shut up. And I Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: said to my mom, I was like, You are being super racist right now. And she's like, No, I'm not. And I go, I go, Mom, it has it ever occurred to you that I am not white? Tabitha Zeigler: Is your mom white? Okay, so that part I didn't know. Dr. Melissa Bird: My dad's native, my mom's white. I said, Tabitha Zeigler: Got it. Got it. Okay. Dr. Melissa Bird: has it ever occurred to you that I'm not white mom? And she said, I mean, I'm talking this was a couple years ago. She literally said it honestly had never occurred to me. That was her response. And I was like, Well, Tina, I guess it's time for us to have a larger conversation, isn't it? Yeah. That's funny. Is she Christina? Tabitha Zeigler: Your mom's name is Tina too. So is mine. That is funny. No, she's just Tina. Dr. Melissa Bird: no, my mom's Christina, but I call her teen when I'm mad at her, especially. So, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: so like no, I love my mom, she's amazing. but like, if my own mother, who literally was married to my father and gave birth to me of her body, it never occurred to her. I mean, she would talk about me being native, but in this context, I was like, I'm not white mom. And

boy, did that unravel for me some shit that I have been dealing with my whole entire life. My own mother. Tabitha Zeigler: So it it's not it's not at all the same. I I'm not I don't mean this in the in this way, but I'm relating to you in this instance. Like I'm a lesbian and Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: my mom always struggled with that. And Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah, my mom did too. Tabitha Zeigler: like it almost sort of felt like a rejection that way in like some of the th and I'm not saying She's an evil woman. Like, I I think in her own way she meant well, right? But Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah, sure. Tabitha Zeigler: this sort of like feeling of rejection by the person that birthed you, like that you Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: sort of feel like like they can't stand. Like there's some portion of them that can't stand you. And Dr. Melissa Bird: Hm, yeah. Yes. Tabitha Zeigler: I like I have struggled with that for years. And then now I have this kid, like my oldest child, almost positive the kid is trans, right? And then Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: on the campaign trail, I was like very, you know, clear in my language to support trans people, not just because of my child, but like saw myself as a humanist, seemed clear. I I studied history, right? And I'm like, right, like first they come for like the LGBTQ plus, the trans, the disability, and then they work their way through. And so immediately whenever I saw people attacking the trans community, I saw it for what I thought it was. And I'm like, this is not good. I I think there there's some route to that. in me as far as the discrimination part, right? And I think it can look different for different people. And like I said, like I I am not at all trying to compare that to say being black. But Dr. Melissa Bird: No, I I don't think you are, but I I think that also like this is the place where I have so much compassion for my mom, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Like I also think that people who are our baby boomer generation, Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: they were born of parents who were experiencing a global grief process that was never able to be resolved. And I've been thinking about this so much like in the last five or six years. I've been thinking about like this idea that because people were unable to grieve after World War II and unable to talk about the loss and the trauma and the things that they experienced, they raised their children to completely ignore anything. And then we got born, Generation X got born, and here we are like feral because our parents didn't Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: know how to teach us how to be. you know, talk about emotion. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: And and so we're we're here in our mid fifties just trying to figure it all out, right? Late 40s, 50s, early 60s, just trying to like talk about what it is like to exist in this world. And in the meantime, our parents were never, ever, ever given the tools to go, huh? I wonder why we've always thought like this. Why have we always ignored the fact that dad comes home and just goes straight into bed? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Why have we always ignored the fact that the greatest invention was supposed to be the washing machine so my mom could do laundry all day long? Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: That is a byproduct of World War II and trying to make everything perfect for all of our soldiers who were coming home so that they didn't have to feel the trauma. Tabitha Zeigler: So Dr. Melissa Bird: If we just present this in this way, everything's going to be fine. And we can totally ignore all of it. And I think the reason our mothers, your mother potentially, like, you know, she's rejected this part of who you are is because she was never raised to feel complicated emotion. And in fact, she was raised in a part of the country that was like everybody has to be totally heteronormative and have two kids. And I gotta make sure that I've got my husband's highball ready and the dinner on the table and the laundry done. Good old middle Tabitha Zeigler: So Dr. Melissa Bird: America. Tabitha Zeigler: Sort of, but I'm a generation behind you, so I'm like an elder millennial. So my grandfather actually was in Vietnam. So Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm. Tabitha Zeigler: I'm also along those lines because my my grandparents had a very tumultuous relationship. And my Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm. Tabitha Zeigler: mother is a product of that. Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: And then I am a product. Product of that sort of by extension. And I do see this now that you mentioned that in my mother, this like forced perfection, right? Like, and also something I never got about my mom, which like just baffled me. Like, if anything was ever said about a person, because it's very standard sort of in the Midwest for people to talk about things basically like if that person just did better, like if they just tried harder, right? Dr. Melissa Bird: Yes. Yep. Tabitha Zeigler: And I am like looking at my mom, right? And I'm like, the same people that would say those things are actively trying to put you back in the kitchen. And outwardly, visually, you could pass for Hispanic, right? So, like, if you happened to be out somewhere. And an ICE officer happened to think that you were Mexican, for example, like you could very easily find yourself in some of these same situations with these same people that the arguments are being made, if they came here illegally, if they did better, if they tried harder, when ultimately now I'm I'm greatly oversimplifying it, but like ultimately it's like if the color of their skin was different, it would be different. Dr. Melissa Bird: Well yeah, 'cause they're not acceptable immigrants, right? Like Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: we're not talking people from targeting people from Sweden. That's not happening, right? And Tabitha

Zeigler: Clearly. Clearly. I mean wh whenever you've got Yeah, go on. Dr. Melissa Bird: But this is the I mean, and I I know you're not oversimplifying it, but like legitimately, this is what we've done to brown people for 500 years. And that's the reckoning. Like that's I keep coming back to it over and over and over again because I want everyone who listens to this to reckon with that knowledge. This is not new. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: This is a 500-year-old problem. And we just happen to be in a hyper connected. Time where everything is available immediately. And Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: we don't know what to do with that. And we're dealing with gener, you know, the Vietnam generation, the generation that was raised by Vietnam dads is no different, right? Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: Like it's the same because it's not like a whole lot of time had passed between World Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: War II and Vietnam. And a lot of those Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: guys that got out of World War II went right into Vietnam and Korea. They never dealt with their shit. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: And I think that like this is why like I want people, people who are mad, who can't put food in their fridge, who can't feed their kids, who can't put gas. I don't remember the last time I filled my tank up with gas. Because I can't Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: afford to, right? The paying our bills, doing this stuff, right? Like we we have a right to be angry. And also. We have to be informed and curious about how it is we got here on Wednesday, August 19th, 2026. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: We have to like really reckon with this is not new. It's just Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: a different iteration of white supremacist colonizing genocidal conduct. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Except for we're seeing it because it doesn't take a week to get a letter from Salt Lake City, Utah. To Portland, Oregon. It doesn't take right. Remember the mail? I love the mail. I want to bring the US post. Tabitha Zeigler: I used to be a mail carrier, so yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: my God, I know. I think you and I have talked about that. I just want the Tabitha Zeigler: It's okay. Dr. Melissa Bird: US post office back so bad. I love the mail. I love the mail. I still I still send love notes to people every single week. I love the mail so much. Yeah, all my friends get mail. Okay. Text me your address and I'll send you a love note. But like Tabitha Zeigler: Really? Well send me one. I would love to get mail. Yeah, I will. I have a friend of mine that does that in Italy too. She she's very much like you. She's like you can never stop writing and sending mail. Dr. Melissa Bird: No, no, I write mail to my friend in England all the time. I in fact I need to send her something. But like the the the point is like we can be mad and we can protest

all we want and we can write postcards, but until we get curious about how we got here, really curious about how we got here, Tabitha, we're gonna keep coming back Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: over and over and over again. And this we're not gonna solve Tabitha Zeigler: Well and I think that's why I'm doing Dr. Melissa Bird: this in our lifetime. We you and I are not gonna solve this in our lifetime. But my hope Tabitha Zeigler: I know. I know. Dr. Melissa Bird: is that people will start to wonder, Well, I wonder why it is this way. I wonder why I've been thinking this for the last fifty years of my life. I wonder why, you know, I thought things were always this way. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Well, I think there is definitely there's a bigger drive amongst like our age and younger, I think, to want to create something better for our children. And I know every generation Dr. Melissa Bird: sorry. Tabitha Zeigler: says that, right? But like legitimately, I think that like our age range had the opportunity to play with the dirt and the sticks and all the things to sort of have maybe like some sort of comfort level. But as we were trying to figure it out as adults, like we just never really achieved that same level that our parents did. And so we've watched how quickly all of that, that was the American dream, has become unattainable. And then I Dr. Melissa Bird: Such a mess. Tabitha Zeigler: right. So I think like that's a a large part of where that anger comes from, too, right? Because people feel like disenfranchised. But I guess I have a theory. I think there are a lot of us that ran for Congress and Senate and all that that have experienced extreme shit in our lives. And we were Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah. Yes. Tabitha Zeigler: like, you know, enough is enough. The buck stops here. Like, we're not doing this shit for fun. Like, we didn't wake up on a Tuesday and be like, I think it would be fun to combat racism. Sign me up. Like Dr. Melissa Bird: Ha ha ha Tabitha Zeigler: Like that's not I mean I didn't like I got stopped at the grocery store the other day because I still live in the same small town that I grew up in. And one of the ladies checking me out went to school with my brother, who's just a couple years younger than me. And she's like, So, are you TikTok famous yet? And I was like, I don't even know what that means. And she's like, Well, you know, like I listen to your podcast sometimes. I was like, Do you like it? She's like, Yeah. I was like, Okay. And I said, Well, listen. I'm not saying that everybody's gonna agree with me, but I do think I feel that I have an obligation to say the things, like to start the conversations and to like spark critical thinking, right? Just like you said, like let's let's dig in there and try and figure out like nobody's gonna get it perfect, but just trying, like just trying to get in there and deconstruct and figure out why the wheels are turning the way that they are. like that's a big part of my advocacy. Like I have these friends of mine, some who've I've met online, right? That I I feel an obligation to advocate for, not because they can't do it for themselves. I want to be really clear on that. Like I'm not trying to like take the place of their advocacy. I just feel like like this is what good friends are supposed to do. Like you're supposed to stand up for your people. And if that looks like putting out some reels or some posts about racism because you may have a black friend, and then taking all that comes with that, well, then so be it. And some of the comments that I've gotten, I'm like, shit, like we're going there. And I just respond. I'm just like, Keyboard warrior about it because I f I feel it's necessary, right? I'm like Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: Black people, Indigenous people, like all these other people that have had to deal with this shit forever, like this is the least I can do, right? Like to just slap my body against the waves a bit to try and combat that in my own way. And I guess I'm just thinking, if if thousands of us start to do that, right? Just like, nope, had enough. Like, I'm not saying we're always gonna get it right. But I am saying just the action of it, right? J just the stepping into the uncomfortability of saying, I've had enough. I'm gonna be vocal about it because I feel that's the right thing to do for my friends. But I'm also then modeling that for my children. Like if you see an injustice and you think it's wrong, you have an obligation to stand up and you have an obligation to take. all the brunt of that and it's gonna be uncomfortable. But that's what like depth and like good humanity looks like. Like you can't you can't sit at those tables, right? Like how how do we negotiate whose humanity value like whose value is more, right? Like what kind of person am I to sit here and say or or rather make excuses for people that are deciding whether Palestinians val like the value on their lives, right? Like, well, Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: I know it's an uncomfortable topic, but like I I don't want to go up against Israel. Like, what? Like, listen. If if it happened to be Israel, right? Like, we're supposed to do that for everybody. Like, whether it's Palestine or the Congo, like, this is what good humanity looks like. And if we don't have l like good legislators that can speak clearly and say, listen, I'm not always going to get it right, but I think this is inhumane. And I don't agree. Like, how is that controversial? I just don't get it. Dr. Melissa Bird: Well, I I so there's two things. One is I don't want people to agree with me all the time. I just want to be able to have conversations with people without Tabitha Zeigler: Right. Dr. Melissa Bird: everybody yelling at each other. I think, you know. So there's that. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: but the second thing is I this goes back to my original thesis, which is the reason we don't

oppose genocide is because we're so steeped into the continued genocide on our own lands that we Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: don't we don't recognize what genocide even looks like. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: We are still we I showed up at a pow wow in Minnesota this weekend. Tabitha Zeigler: Were you at that one with the ICE officers? Dr. Melissa Bird: No, no, I live in Oregon, so I wasn't there. It was in Minnesota. I showed up at a powwow on sovereign land. That's like that would be like French police off immigration officers showing up in Germany. Like Tabitha Zeigler: Right. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I I really want people to understand this. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: That is sovereign land. Immigration and enforcement officials do not have the right to be on treaty land. They don't. They have no jurisdiction there. And and I I I think the reason people don't recognize what's happening in Palestine or the Congo or any of the other places where we have genocides actively happening Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: goes all the way back to my we have been consistently and constantly. gaslit into not understanding the indigenous and native experience on our own land. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: I give you Thanksgiving. Right. I give you ten little Indians. Like Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: that song, that is a song about literally killing Indian children. And we all sang it in elementary school and preschool. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: And I don't think I realized that until I don't know, five or six years ago. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Do you see I'm saying? Like I think that we have I think that the reason people don't Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, no y you're right. Like I I learned the same song. Dr. Melissa Bird: know how to talk about what's happening in Palestine is because and I even had a hard time talking about it until I really started to learn about it and dig into it and understand it better. Right. And then it it was like so obvious to me that what's happening there is a genocide. Like you you can't ignore it. Like you just can't, right? But we have been so gaslit and brainwashed into believing these stories of our own supremacy and that of our allies, that we can't have dialogue and conversation about it because we don't understand how ingrained in us this is. And I will never forget my husband read the rediscovery of America, and he he said, You make me read a lot of books, and I don't like most of them. But this one was good. He said it I learned so much from this book. And and I think that like that's the thing. We have to keep learning and understanding and comprehending that if we're uncomfortable talking about something, it there's a reason. Like, I don't want to get in a fight about this. Well, we don't have to Tabitha Zeigler: Well that's like Dr. Melissa Bird: get in a fight about something to not agree, but to still try and learn from each other. My greatest Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: lessons are from people who do not think, look or act like me. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: They are my those are my greatest lessons. Tabitha Zeigler: 'Cause that's where growth happens. Dr. Melissa Bird: Yes. And what are, you know, we're living people keep talking about the loneliness and loneliness epidemic. And I think the loneliness epidemic stems from the fact that people are afraid to talk to people who aren't like them, who don't agree with them. Everybody gets into their own silo, and then they forget there's a whole world out there that we are all intricately woven into. We're all woven together. There's no denying that. That's literally the purpose of planet Earth and humanity. We are woven to the trees and the spiders and the birds and the plants and the water and the dirt and the people. And if we don't start to acknowledge our connectivity, I mean, the earth is getting rid of us anyway, so it's just a matter of time at this point. She Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: she's like, Well, this was a fun experiment. I guess we'll do what I did with the dinosaurs and move you all along now. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: She's a middle aged woman in the middle of a hot flash and she's done with our shit. She's like, see ya. Tabitha Zeigler: Well, I I think also the female population of the world is like that. Like I think there is, you know, people are uncomfortable with the word matriarchy, but you can definitely see it if you're looking close enough. You know, all of these Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: women, like I feel like like that that is one of those like I don't know, I always say it felt like getting hit with a lightning bolt after President Trump was elected. Like I don't know if it was the n the night after, like early in the morning. I swear to god, like I shot up out of bed at like three o'clock in the morning. It felt like I got jolted by a lightning bolt. And it was just like, I don't know, like this fear, panic, caution sort of thing. I could not go back to sleep. So I was like, Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: right, I guess I better just get up and make some coffee. And the wheels were just going. And I do firmly believe like. Mother Earth, whatever you wanna call her, like she shocked some of us to it like into action and was like, right, listen, like if you weren't paying attention before, like I need you to activate now because this shit is out of control. And like it just happened. Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah, and I think people yeah, and I think people have a problem with matriarchy because they're looking at it through a lens of patriarchy. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: Matriarchy is not like patriarchy. There is not a top-down structure. Matriarchal Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. I yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: cultures don't have a top-down

structure. And I think that's the problem, is the assumption about matriarchy is that all of the women will be in charge. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: But actually what it looks like is us creating communities where we are all connected. It that's that's how that structure works, right? Women tend the hearth, they tend community, men go out and hunt and come back and bring back the food for the community. That's that is a matriarchal structure. And and I think that I think the reason people freak out about the term matriarchy or thinking about what would happen if women were elected and held positions of power is that they're afraid that. that th you know, that they will be in charge and that's but at the same time, who do we put in charge of the home? Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, I think the men are afra well Yeah, like yeah, there there are those Dr. Melissa Bird: I mean, they call it the second shift for a reason. We go to work, we come home, we work again. We're in charge of the home. Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah, there are those men that are fearful right now because they feel like a retribution coming. And then there are those men that are actively trying to be helpers and they're like, what can I do? And I'm like, let's start with the conversation. Like the next time you hear a guy say something messed up, just be like, you know what, man, like I don't agree with you actually. Like start that conversation with them and push back and be like like actually I don't hate women. Like I actually think it might be excellent if they were in charge for a while. Like from what they're saying, they they seem to like be willing to give us a break and let us have some humanity. And I don't like Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: maybe I want to be a stay at home dad. I don't know. Like like this sounds like a good idea. And so I've really been trying to encourage that in men that when when they message me and they say, What can I do? I'm like, Well Be open, start to have conversations, push back, like try and do something with the young men. Like do not let the, you know, like the Tate brothers and the Manosphere. Like, don't let those guys take over. Like, do whatever you can to inject your goodness into these young men. Like, fight back. Try and show them compassion. Because like we actually need you guys to be at, well, I'm gonna use. our friends word, Bree's word, accomplices. Like we don't need you to just be an ally. We need you to be an accomplice. Like this is a team Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm. Tabitha Zeigler: sport. And if we're gonna save humanity, we gotta work together. Well, I think we've covered a lot today. We Dr. Melissa Bird: I think we have two. Tabitha Zeigler: have. I mean, we're busy trying to save the world over here. So was there anything that you wanted to mention? 'Cause I know you have something else to do. Dr. Melissa Bird: Well, I just I really want to invite everybody who's listening to this to just start to get curious. Like this has been the thing. This is my soapbox right now. Like, really start to get curious and wonder what would happen if we just had a little bit more love and compassion for each other, even if we don't agree with each other. And I think this polarizate, like these extremes on the left and the right, they They help us to see how messy the middle is. And and I think that I think that what what we are craving right now is to be connected to each other. And and if that is true, then then we have to think about, you know, not not judging people off the gate, which I do too. Like I'm not perfect, right? But like I start I've started to ask myself, like, why am I making assumptions about this person without actually having a full blown conversation with them? Like, why am I doing that? And inevitably I figure out that that's about me and my own self-judgment, not Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: about them at all. And I just want to really encourage people. I have a whole series of conversations with my friend Amy Wolf on my YouTube channel at Dr. Melissa Bird. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: and we talk, she's Mm the she's like my conservative Republican yin to my Democrat liberal yang. We have these Tabitha Zeigler: I gotcha. Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: great unchris we for years, for literally years, we went live on Facebook every, I think we did it every week or every month or something like that. Tabitha Zeigler: All right. Dr. Melissa Bird: And had these unscripted conversations about guns and abortion and LGBTQ stuff and education and like religion and Christianity, like huge conversations. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: And for both of us, it changed. Who we were fundamentally as human beings. And I just want to encourage more of us to have conversations with people who don't think or act like us. I just, I think that's actually how we combat fascism. I think it's actually how we beat back Christian nationalism. And then the other thing I really want to leave people with is please learn more about what it actually means. I've mentioned several books on this podcast. Read the damn Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: books, read Bad Indians, read the Rediscovery of America, read the book Fresh Banana Leaves by Jessica Hernandez. If you don't learn about how we got here from where it started 500 years ago, you will not be able to see why we are here right now. And I am telling you, this this whole thing with the national parks, with getting rid of the roadless rule to cut down our forests, we've done that before. We have been here before. And and I just really, I guess the last thing is you tell your Congress people, no matter what side of the aisle they live on, that Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: if they don't take action against this president for violating, I cannot even begin to think of how many federal laws that man has violated. We have to keep telling Congress to get their butts back in session because Tabitha Zeigler: Mm-hmm. Dr. Melissa Bird: they've only worked. Man, I would kill to make $175,000 Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: a year and work. You know, and get permanent life insurance or health Tabitha Zeigler: Yeah. Dr. Melissa Bird: insurance and work 140 days. That sounds delightful. Tabitha Zeigler: Mm. Dr. Melissa Bird: sarcastically, seriously. Tabitha Zeigler: No, no, I I understand. Dr. Melissa Bird: They there are things that can be done in Congress, even if the Democrats don't have the majority, that they are not doing and they need to get back to work. Tabitha Zeigler: I agree with you. So I will leave you all with this. Dr. Melissa Bird: So thank you, Tabitha. Yes. Tabitha Zeigler: Go and buy this book, everybody. Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: Go and visit her YouTube channel. for those in North Carolina, close to North Carolina, or for people that just are interested to see us in the flesh. Yourself, Mo Dr. Melissa Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: Bird, myself, Brie. The controversial blonde will be there. Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm. Tabitha Zeigler: who else is gonna be there? Jenjo Hansen. Ashley Bell. Ashley Bell. Dr. Melissa Bird: I can't remember. Jen Johanson's gonna It's gonna be fun. And I'm pre I'm preaching too, so Tabitha Zeigler: Are you? Dr. Melissa Bird: and I'm signing books. Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: Cool. Yeah, so if you want your books if you want to buy the book in advance, right? So come with your own book, right? Dr. Melissa Bird: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: How many are you are you gonna bring books with you or do they need to buy it? Dr. Melissa Bird: Yep, I'm gonna sell I'm gonna be selling in the book pavilion. So yeah. You don't Tabitha Zeigler: Okay. Dr. Melissa Bird: have to buy it ahead of time. You can come and visit. Yep. But you bring yours and Tabitha Zeigler: Very good. Right. So if you have your book already, bring it. Dr. Melissa Bird: you bring yours and I'll sign it. Yeah. Thank you so much, Tapsa. Yeah. Tabitha Zeigler: Sweet. I would love that. And yeah, absolutely. I just want so the one thing that I ask everybody at the end, because we talked about so much today. If you Dr. Melissa Bird: Mm-hmm. Tabitha Zeigler: want to leave people with one thing, who is Melissa Byrd? Dr. Melissa Bird: Superstar rock star who loves Metallica and driving like she's sixteen in her Camaro. Tabitha Zeigler: Sweet. Awesome. Well, everybody, it was a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today. For those of you that are so inclined, if this podcast spoke to you, please share it. Like, share, subscribe, all the things. And we'll see you next time. Have a good day, everybody. Dr. Melissa Bird: Thank you so much. Tabitha Zeigler: Thank you.