Christopher: Now, my guest this week is someone I've known personally for about seven or eight years now. And he was actually the first friend of my ex that I ever met. So he holds a very kind of special place in my heart personally. He came and spoke to me one morning with the dog that he was fostering at that time, a dog called Reese, and him and his partner actually foster guide dogs in training. So Reese was one of those dogs that was training to be a guide dog. Reese was pretty well behaved for the most of it, but you might see or hear some bits moving, you might hear the dog panting, for example, in the background. But considering we recorded for a couple of hours, Reese was very, very well behaved. We got into quite a few things. We got into what life is like as someone who is naturally bright from a young age, as well as someone who's in a long-term queer relationship. we do get into some pretty heavy topics here, so please do check the show notes if you think that that's something that might affect you. My guest this week is Eugene Lynch.
Audio: welcome to Standing Out, my second guest. Thank you. I feel like I've known you for a really long time, but there's so many pieces of you that I didn't know. And like going through your TikTok and going through Yeah, lots of your videos gave me such an insight which I'm like really excited to to delve into. so I would like you to just paint a picture of Eugene when he was a kid. Okay. and go from there So I was born in nineteen eighty three. Yeah. Ireland was an interesting place in those days. It was, you know, still one of the poorest countries in Europe. probably the poorest in the EU. And I grew up in one of the poorest poorest areas in in the country in the centre of Dublin. My where we lived, we had like a two bedroom house I've got two sisters. We shared a bedroom between the three of us. our house didn't have any central heating. We had like a fire in the like a coal fire in in the in the living room. And that was the only room really in the house that had any any warmth other than like we had hot water in the bathroom, but you had to kind of turn that on and stuff. So when I kind of tell people that, some people, like since I've moved to the UK and you know, I went into a graduate job and all that kind of stuff and people are asking about your background and stuff and I tell people that story and they're like, Did you grow up in Victorian times? I'm like, No. It's quite common in in parts of Ireland and even in parts of the north of England and Scotland and stuff for people to have that kind of experience, even in in the nineteen eighties. So you didn't grow up in Victorian times, but you did grow up in Dublin in nineteen eighty three. how has your how has that upbringing shaped parts of who you are now, do you think? I guess I mean I was very lucky in many ways. Like my I grew up in a very loving family. My parents you know, are still together. and I had both my parents and they both worked quite hard. so I had, you know, good role models. I had good role models in my wider family, and my my parents were always really ambitious for us as kids. so they always wanted better for us and that it like that being instilled at you at quite a young age, that, you know, you you can achieve better things and you can get on in life and stuff. Like that was quite a good foundation to get at that age. but I think at the same time I always had like a little bit of a an inferiority complex. my mum sent us to primary school, my sisters and I, in the area where she grew up, which was it was like a well, at that age, like a forty minute walk away. Yeah. it was in a slightly nicer area. Okay. And it was a better school. Yeah. and she really fought to get us into that school because it was you know most of the schools in that time in Ireland were Catholic. and you generally had to be in the parish to get into the school. Yeah, okay. But my mum managed to get all three of us into this primary school in this in a slightly different area. And it was only really when I went to primary school that I started to feel like my upbringing was different. To some other people. Got you, okay. 'cause not only was I going into a situation where a lot of the other kids in the class knew each other because they all went to like play school together or they lived in the same area or whatever, but I also had a different accent to the kids in the class. right. I had a much rougher, much more common accent. Okay. And and I f like from that point I kind of felt other. Yeah. And having that experience at that age, I kind of you get a bit of a You get a bit of a kind of complex almost about it. Yeah. because some of those kids were mean and like they did look down on you and and that sort of made me feel like an outsider from a very young age. And that kind of was a theme that continued throughout my life in different ways. It's interesting because I feel like as queer people we have we all have this story of being othered, but yours almost came for it it ca it didn't come from really being queer. It came initially, I guess, from from that. Yeah, and it wasn't just that like, a lot of queer people that talk about feeling like an alien planted into a situation. Mm-hmm. And I definitely had that, but I had that not just because I was queer, but for different reasons. So because I came from a you know a rougher area than the people I went to school with. And also at a young age I I kind of developed quite quickly, kind of mentally. So I learned to read before I went to school. and partly like my parents were good at like giving me, you know, kids books and my my mum and my aunt would read to me all the time and I kind of got a kind of passion for reading. But I I just absorbed yeah the ability to read. and by the age of three I was reading quite complicated things. so I again like that made me feel like a bit special, but it also felt like it might be bad, if you know what I mean. It was the one thing when I felt down about myself, right into my teens and stuff, that I could kind of latch onto and say, Well, at least I've got this. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that it made you feel both ways. I wonder if well, it's almost like when we're that young, we don't really, I guess, have the brain capacity to understand the difference between them. It's just that all you want to do is fit in. And so when you're not fitting in, even when you're told you're clever, it's almost sort of come secondary because all you want to do is be the same as everyone else and not be. kind of differentiated I guess. before anyone comes on, I always ask them about like any decisions in their life that they've made that have kind of that they've gone against the grain. And you mentioned to me. You said, Don't let me forget to talk about my aunt. Can you tell me a bit about your aunt? Is this your is this your mum's sister? Yeah. my mum has two sisters, and even in the 1980s in Ireland, so my one of my mum's sisters, you know, when I was young, was married but still working, which was quite unusual in those days. She worked at a bank in a very good job. and so you know, she was kind of a role model. in some ways. But my my mum's other sister at that point wasn't married. and I thought she was the coolest person ever because she lived in an apartment and not a house. She had a beanbag instead of a couch and she had this cool job. and I I I kind of saw like this kind of strong independent person who was single and had a role in society as a woman. she she said that a guy that she was working with was getting married to another man in Amsterdam. So this would have been So the Netherlands got gay marriage in 2001, but before that they had like a registered partnership system. Okay. So it would have been before full gay marriage came in, but there were registered partnerships. So it was really like it was in the late 90s, and it was before I came out, and I came out about 16. And she said she's she said that her colleague was getting married to another man. She couldn't she was invited to the wedding but couldn't go, and she really would have loved to have gone. And I just As a as a young queer kid, I that was the thing I kind of latched onto and remembered because I was like I was at a point in my teens where some of I was really lucky because some I had queer friends and some of them had come out to their families already. And I was kind of late later than the others to do that. But I always had this like I kind of knew that my family would probably be okay, but I had this huge fear that. something might change if I came out or that I might be rejected or whatever. And so this was one thing I could latch on to and say, I there's one person in my family who I know is safe. It's such a massive It's such a massive thing when someone says one small thing that that you latch onto. And I think it can be both a you can latch there's you hear so many stories of people that latch on to throwaway comments that people make which make you not want to come out. Like I remember people saying things like, sometimes I worry about you in like a funny, if I were like dress up with my sister, for example, and like someone would say something like that, and it wouldn't be, they meant no malice by it, but I would That was the one thing that I heard, and it stopped me coming out for a really long time. because I I kind of knew it was a joke, but at the same time, you're you're not 100% sure and it's coming from somewhere, sort of thing. But it's interesting that you had this this kind of n nugget of information that you could really hold on to, and it did give you that kind of moment of of of safety. you mentioned that you went from a when you went from your single sex primary school, is this correct, to a secondary school at twelve, you said that was a a kind of huge awakening. I know we're sort of jumping back, but why why was that such a moment? And when I went into secondary school, I just started like, because I had this little group of friends and we were supportive of each other, started to kind of stop caring. And also being a bit rebellious, I think, as well. So it was that kind of like sense of freedom. And I You know, you you were asking about points in your life when you went against the grain. And this was definitely a point when I was doing that, but like I I can't really take full credit for it because I feel like the friends I had were all much braver than I was. and I was kind of going along with them and I was very happy to like be living in this kind of world that they were creating or that we were creating together where we had this more freedom and we started to be a bit more openly queer. and like our secondary school was still a single sex Catholic secondary school, but we sort of we got to a point where we stopped caring if people knew we were gay. Yeah. and that was really nice. And there were points where the other kids basically found out. so I was about I think fourteen when there was this kind of moment of realization. In our class when we were doing this exercise, that some of us might be gay. and there was a bit of a reaction in the class, but nobody like it wasn't a it wasn't a very strong reaction. And I remember one guy in the class kind of looked very surprised and concerned on hearing this information. and there was a teacher there who was Not our regular teacher who came in for like a session and I don't know how we ended up talking about this topic. and it was one of my friends who'd basically said who'd basically come out without saying it. this guy across the other side of the class reacted suddenly and she went straight across to him and said, Now you seem to have a strong reaction to this. Why is that? And this guy, I can't even remember his name or exactly who it was, but he said, Well, you know, I don't know. how to like act around these guys, like in the showers or in like whatever. And I don't know what just came to me, but I was like, don't flatter yourself. Nobody's into you. And then you looked a little bit hurt. How much do you think having that group of friends but I guess what do you think what do you think your school life at secondary school especially would have been like if you hadn't had that group? I feel like it was really, really important to me because I I really lacked confidence. And being around queer friends who were, you know, smart and brave and could kind of show me a way to be brave. Like my friends went to a gay bar, you know, w they would have been about sixteen, and they went a few times before I went with them, you know. all of my friends came out to their parents before I did. I you know, I they kind of paved the way for me in many ways. and so I was really grateful to have friends who were that kind of brave and confident. I wonder how much that's like Helps you in just being authentically yourself throughout the rest of your life. I feel like for me it took me such a long time to understand who I was. and I think I didn't have that confidence at school. I didn't, I very much I don't know if I wanted to fit in, but I was definitely gonna tell wasn't gonna tell anybody I was gay. And it's it's funny actually because a lot of the friends that I was friends with at that time are now gay. Or queer, but none of us said to each other then. And I was like the first person to come out. And then they've all kind of since come out. So I wonder if if we'd have had that if we'd have been able to be brave enough to tell each other younger how things might have looked looked different for us. I mean the the one big difference it made, not to be like shallow about it, but the one big difference it made was we would like constantly be discussing the boys in the school. Yeah, and I I I never had that and I would just think about it. Are you guys still still close friends now? after I moved to London, I think we we drifted apart a bit, but I've reconnected with a couple of the guys recently and it's interesting, like I I'm not gonna speak for other people, but there are a lot of similarities and our stories and how things developed for us since then. we've all struggled in different ways, like in adulthood. And it's kind of sad in a way, because like we had of that really good foundation. but like it takes a lot to overcome the kind of trauma of growing up in what is essentially a homophobic society. Yeah. and But like it's really nice to have reconnected and and still have those guys in my life. I get the impression that as a child you were a very happy, relatively happy child. And you mentioned that when you went to you went to uni when you were 17. and you said I went to uni b became an atheist And decided to stop coming out and to just be. Again, for me, it feels like at that time that was when I started coming out. So it's interesting that it's kind of the the inverse for you. when you say decided to To just be, how was that different to what you were sort of doing previously? Well when I went to university I was like, okay, this is a new like I I didn't really know anyone there. I was pretty much the only person from my school that was going to this university and I kinda wanted to make friends on my own terms in some ways and I wasn't gonna try and hide who I was in these new relationships. So and I also decided I wasn't gonna come out. so I kind of flipped it where I wasn't gonna hide any part of myself, but I wasn't gonna have this whole moment where I sat someone down and was like, by the way, I need to tell you something. Yeah. So that was what kind of changed for me. I was I I I I I developed a group of friends in university who were all girls actually. I with them I was like I would talk about guys I fancied or you know, I wouldn't hide things from them. Yeah. But I also didn't have a coming out moment. Because I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. Like I don't like I just wanna be me. Yeah. And if people well, first of all, like they should, you know, pick up on the signals and take the hint. Yeah. But if they wanted to kind of reject me or whatever, that was fine, that was up to them. Yeah. You know? I wasn't gonna stress about it. I also think those coming out moments can be s they're just exhausting. They're so tiring and you know, you still get them now when someone I don't know, if you're on the phone to a customer service and they assume your partner's a female or you know, in these these kind of small moments, they they definitely take a for me, I they they take a hit when you have to say, no, no, it's actually a it's actually a he, even though it's really small thing. So I think having that decision to just be like, I just wanna be me. And yes, being gay is such a big part of my personality, but it's not my my whole personality, so to speak. So through uni, you were completely yourself, which I love, and it feels like by this point you've you've got a really firm understanding of exactly who you are. Your your next point that you mentioned Two thousand and seven, we're skipping a skipping ahead, which is just a very simple I met the love of my life, which I loved reading because I know Tim and I think he's he's an amazing he's an amazing person. I'd love to understand A how you met Tim and B how your life has changed since you met him. Hmm. Yeah. we found love in a hopeless place. I love that. It was it was four AM in Fire in Vauxhall when I met Tim. he's very tall. I saw him from across the room. and I was at a very low point in my life. it was the first time that I'd kind of like lived on my own and stuff, and I went a bit wild. I was out like several nights a week, going home with guys, taking guys home, you know, all my new friend I I used my newfound freedom. Yeah. but I was in I was not in a great place mentally, and I was in a prime position to get into some quite toxic relationships. Okay. which I did. and my mental health got worse and worse. And I had I I didn't drink until I was sixteen because I in Ireland I took the pledge. it was like a religious thing and I said I wasn't gonna drink until I was sixteen and I didn't. Okay. And when I first started drinking, it didn't really have much of an effect on me. Like I didn't get drunk. I didn't get hangovers. and then when I went to France for my Erasmus year, it was the first time I ever got drunk. Even still, I didn't get hangovers. those are the days. Yeah. And at that time, some of my friends, you know, we would go out clubbing and some of them would like take drugs, like pills were quite a big thing, you know, at the end of the 90s, start of the 2000s. I didn't want to do that. Part of me, like I I also didn't I didn't want to be drunk because I was like the one thing that I always hold on to or held on to at that time was like my intellect and my ability to kind of like think and reason and I felt like yeah drinking or taking drugs would kind of take that away from me or like inhibit it in some ways. So I was kind of very anti that. But then in London eventually I decided to try drugs and it kind of like completely changed my life. not necessarily for the better. Okay. and so when I met Tim in two thousand and seven, I'd been like increasingly taking drugs at the weekend, and I would have like these big binges and highs, and it was mostly ecstasy I was doing. and then I would have these huge crashes when I went to work on like Monday and Tuesday. Tuesday in particular, like I would feel awful. It was probably the lowest I've ever been 'cause I I just really felt down and and I met Tim and I was very cautious, 'cause I was like, I really like this guy. I'm not sure if he's into me, I'm not sure if he's right for me, like all these kinds of things. But we from the moment we met, we basically spent the entire weekend together. I think we met on a Friday night. Yeah. we stayed together on the Friday night. And the in at his place. And then we went to my place on the Saturday to have dinner with my flatmates and me. And then he stayed over Saturday night as well. and I'd never had that before, like spent so much time with someone, you know, on after like what was essentially a one night stand. and like six months later, I needed to move out of the house share I was in. and you know, Tim and I had been getting on really, really well. We're spending most of our time together, other than the fact that so in this job I was working abroad four days a week. so we wouldn't we'd only see each other really at weekends. and I was really struggling to find a place to live. and so eventually I moved in with him. We d we like we didn't have a typical gay relationship, but we might have had a typical lesbian relationship in that like we formed a bond very quickly and we moved in together really fast. It does sound very lesbian. Yeah. and I we kinda never looked back. Yeah. we've been together nineteen years, through a lot. and I think our relationship is stronger now than it's ever been. I know you've been very vocal on your kind of TikTok around like your main thing is HIV and HIV awareness, which I think is amazing. to whatever level you want to, can you take me through your experience with that and how you've got to where you are now, which is ultimately you share videos with thousands of people online around multiple different parts of HIV, which is obviously really it's really valuable work. But how did you get to there? From this graduate corporate job There's a big there's a big difference between those two paths. Yeah. I so if I take you back to twenty thirteen, I had just turned thirty and Tim and I had been together for six years at this point. and I was things were not going well but I was trying to pretend they were as much as I could. Okay. So I started like hiding things. hiding how much I was taking drugs and drinking and I wasn't in a great place and I w I y I felt very low and didn't have a lot of confidence and I I was looking for validation in lots of different ways and I got ill. I had a I had like the signs of kind of some kind of an infection, but I had a like a rash and pain down one side of my body and I thought, this is not cold or flu, this isn't standard, I need to go and see a doctor. So I made an appointment to go and see my G P and when I went into that appointment, my G P basically just took one look at me and was like, You've got shingles. And I went, weird. I knew sort of what shingles was. you know, I'd had chickenpox as a child, it's it's that virus. Yeah. It tends to be something older people get as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, you can get a a vaccine for it now and and they g they give it to older people because it can be quite painful and it it can be difficult when an older person gets it. But one of the reasons that older people might get it is because their immune system has is a bit low. or has been weakened. And so it was unusual for a healthy 30-year-old to to get shingles. And I was very lucky in that my doctor was like, well, I'm gonna give you the antiviral metric medication to take, which will get you through this and you should be better soon. But I'm not happy about this situation. so I'm just gonna send away for some extra tests. And you know, she took a bit of history and stuff, but she was like we're gonna send away for tests for diabetes and HIV. 'cause I think s something else might be going on. So off I went with my medication, started to get better, went back to work. and I was in the office in work when I got a phone call from the receptionist to say, Can you come in at the end of the day? The doctor wants to talk to you and I thought, I'm really busy. I don't wanna have to go all the way to the GP surgery. But then at the same time I was like, Well they don't call you in at the end of the day for like no reason. so I said fine, I would go Up till that point when when she'd mentioned to you we're gonna test for HIV and what was the other one? Diabetes. Did did they did you have any kind of thoughts about that at that point or was it just like they're doing these tests and and that's that kind of thing? I I felt kind of terrified 'cause I was worried that the HIV test might come back reactive. And the main worry I had was like how do I explain how this has happened? But and I think I was in denial, but what I was thinking was, it's probably diabetes. you know, there was some diabetes in my family and I thought like maybe maybe there was something going on there. so I I didn't really I wasn't prepared for the outcome. Sure. Or for like the consequences. and You know, I I had a it was a really weird experience arriving at the GP surgery. The waiting room was empty and like I was still going to a GP in an area where we used to live and it was chaos. Like it was always really busy in there. so I went into a really quiet surgery, went into the reception and they kind of said I could go in straight away to see the doctor. And I'm like, Okay, no wait, this is weird. And She sat me down and she said, you know, thanks for coming in. we've had all your results back and your HIV test has come back reactive. And I had a very similar experience to other people when they get a diagnosis like that, in that, you know, I don't really remember what happened. from that point on. and my GP was great. She was really, really supportive. She'd already made an appointment for me at the HIV clinic. she she told me like you're going here at this time, this is what's gonna happen next. you know, things are gonna be okay. do you want me to prescribe something to help you sleep? d you know, when you go home and see your partner, you know, be gentle and kind and like don't go making accusations and stuff, I think was was hit the point that she was coming from. but I was just in complete shock and I I I felt a lot of guilt, I felt a lot of shame, I felt like my life was over, and I my biggest worry was how am I going to tell Tim and how's he going react? and what like what kind of person would I be or what would I think of myself if I brought this into my into our relationship and if if I'd given it to him. And so I I was really anxious and I think probably the the thought crossed my mind, like, do I have to tell him this? and I thought, like, I can't not tell him. and they told me that I could take him with me to the HIV clinic to get him tested. so I I went home and waited for Tim to get home from work, and when he came in the door, he was like, how did it go, the doctor? And I was like, he could kind of see like suddenly that something was wrong and I like burst into tears.
Audio: welcome to Standing Out, my second guest. Thank you. I feel like I've known you for a really long time, but there's so many pieces of you that I didn't know. And like going through your TikTok and going through Yeah, lots of your videos gave me such an insight which I'm like really excited to to delve into. so I would like you to just paint a picture of Eugene when he was a kid. Okay. and go from there So I was born in nineteen eighty three. Yeah. Ireland was an interesting place in those days. It was, you know, still one of the poorest countries in Europe. probably the poorest in the EU. And I grew up in one of the poorest poorest areas in in the country in the centre of Dublin. My where we lived, we had like a two bedroom house I've got two sisters. We shared a bedroom between the three of us. our house didn't have any central heating. We had like a fire in the like a coal fire in in the in the living room. And that was the only room really in the house that had any any warmth other than like we had hot water in the bathroom, but you had to kind of turn that on and stuff. So when I kind of tell people that, some people, like since I've moved to the UK and you know, I went into a graduate job and all that kind of stuff and people are asking about your background and stuff and I tell people that story and they're like, Did you grow up in Victorian times? I'm like, No. It's quite common in in parts of Ireland and even in parts of the north of England and Scotland and stuff for people to have that kind of experience, even in in the nineteen eighties. So you didn't grow up in Victorian times, but you did grow up in Dublin in nineteen eighty three. how has your how has that upbringing shaped parts of who you are now, do you think? I guess I mean I was very lucky in many ways. Like my I grew up in a very loving family. My parents you know, are still together. and I had both my parents and they both worked quite hard. so I had, you know, good role models. I had good role models in my wider family, and my my parents were always really ambitious for us as kids. so they always wanted better for us and that it like that being instilled at you at quite a young age, that, you know, you you can achieve better things and you can get on in life and stuff. Like that was quite a good foundation to get at that age. but I think at the same time I always had like a little bit of a an inferiority complex. my mum sent us to primary school, my sisters and I, in the area where she grew up, which was it was like a well, at that age, like a forty minute walk away. Yeah. it was in a slightly nicer area. Okay. And it was a better school. Yeah. and she really fought to get us into that school because it was you know most of the schools in that time in Ireland were Catholic. and you generally had to be in the parish to get into the school. Yeah, okay. But my mum managed to get all three of us into this primary school in this in a slightly different area. And it was only really when I went to primary school that I started to feel like my upbringing was different. To some other people. Got you, okay. 'cause not only was I going into a situation where a lot of the other kids in the class knew each other because they all went to like play school together or they lived in the same area or whatever, but I also had a different accent to the kids in the class. right. I had a much rougher, much more common accent. Okay. And and I f like from that point I kind of felt other. Yeah. And having that experience at that age, I kind of you get a bit of a You get a bit of a kind of complex almost about it. Yeah. because some of those kids were mean and like they did look down on you and and that sort of made me feel like an outsider from a very young age. And that kind of was a theme that continued throughout my life in different ways. It's interesting because I feel like as queer people we have we all have this story of being othered, but yours almost came for it it ca it didn't come from really being queer. It came initially, I guess, from from that. Yeah, and it wasn't just that like, a lot of queer people that talk about feeling like an alien planted into a situation. Mm-hmm. And I definitely had that, but I had that not just because I was queer, but for different reasons. So because I came from a you know a rougher area than the people I went to school with. And also at a young age I I kind of developed quite quickly, kind of mentally. So I learned to read before I went to school. and partly like my parents were good at like giving me, you know, kids books and my my mum and my aunt would read to me all the time and I kind of got a kind of passion for reading. But I I just absorbed yeah the ability to read. and by the age of three I was reading quite complicated things. so I again like that made me feel like a bit special, but it also felt like it might be bad, if you know what I mean. It was the one thing when I felt down about myself, right into my teens and stuff, that I could kind of latch onto and say, Well, at least I've got this. Yeah. It's interesting that you say that it made you feel both ways. I wonder if well, it's almost like when we're that young, we don't really, I guess, have the brain capacity to understand the difference between them. It's just that all you want to do is fit in. And so when you're not fitting in, even when you're told you're clever, it's almost sort of come secondary because all you want to do is be the same as everyone else and not be. kind of differentiated I guess. before anyone comes on, I always ask them about like any decisions in their life that they've made that have kind of that they've gone against the grain. And you mentioned to me. You said, Don't let me forget to talk about my aunt. Can you tell me a bit about your aunt? Is this your is this your mum's sister? Yeah. my mum has two sisters, and even in the 1980s in Ireland, so my one of my mum's sisters, you know, when I was young, was married but still working, which was quite unusual in those days. She worked at a bank in a very good job. and so you know, she was kind of a role model. in some ways. But my my mum's other sister at that point wasn't married. and I thought she was the coolest person ever because she lived in an apartment and not a house. She had a beanbag instead of a couch and she had this cool job. and I I I kind of saw like this kind of strong independent person who was single and had a role in society as a woman. she she said that a guy that she was working with was getting married to another man in Amsterdam. So this would have been So the Netherlands got gay marriage in 2001, but before that they had like a registered partnership system. Okay. So it would have been before full gay marriage came in, but there were registered partnerships. So it was really like it was in the late 90s, and it was before I came out, and I came out about 16. And she said she's she said that her colleague was getting married to another man. She couldn't she was invited to the wedding but couldn't go, and she really would have loved to have gone. And I just As a as a young queer kid, I that was the thing I kind of latched onto and remembered because I was like I was at a point in my teens where some of I was really lucky because some I had queer friends and some of them had come out to their families already. And I was kind of late later than the others to do that. But I always had this like I kind of knew that my family would probably be okay, but I had this huge fear that. something might change if I came out or that I might be rejected or whatever. And so this was one thing I could latch on to and say, I there's one person in my family who I know is safe. It's such a massive It's such a massive thing when someone says one small thing that that you latch onto. And I think it can be both a you can latch there's you hear so many stories of people that latch on to throwaway comments that people make which make you not want to come out. Like I remember people saying things like, sometimes I worry about you in like a funny, if I were like dress up with my sister, for example, and like someone would say something like that, and it wouldn't be, they meant no malice by it, but I would That was the one thing that I heard, and it stopped me coming out for a really long time. because I I kind of knew it was a joke, but at the same time, you're you're not 100% sure and it's coming from somewhere, sort of thing. But it's interesting that you had this this kind of n nugget of information that you could really hold on to, and it did give you that kind of moment of of of safety. you mentioned that you went from a when you went from your single sex primary school, is this correct, to a secondary school at twelve, you said that was a a kind of huge awakening. I know we're sort of jumping back, but why why was that such a moment? And when I went into secondary school, I just started like, because I had this little group of friends and we were supportive of each other, started to kind of stop caring. And also being a bit rebellious, I think, as well. So it was that kind of like sense of freedom. And I You know, you you were asking about points in your life when you went against the grain. And this was definitely a point when I was doing that, but like I I can't really take full credit for it because I feel like the friends I had were all much braver than I was. and I was kind of going along with them and I was very happy to like be living in this kind of world that they were creating or that we were creating together where we had this more freedom and we started to be a bit more openly queer. and like our secondary school was still a single sex Catholic secondary school, but we sort of we got to a point where we stopped caring if people knew we were gay. Yeah. and that was really nice. And there were points where the other kids basically found out. so I was about I think fourteen when there was this kind of moment of realization. In our class when we were doing this exercise, that some of us might be gay. and there was a bit of a reaction in the class, but nobody like it wasn't a it wasn't a very strong reaction. And I remember one guy in the class kind of looked very surprised and concerned on hearing this information. and there was a teacher there who was Not our regular teacher who came in for like a session and I don't know how we ended up talking about this topic. and it was one of my friends who'd basically said who'd basically come out without saying it. this guy across the other side of the class reacted suddenly and she went straight across to him and said, Now you seem to have a strong reaction to this. Why is that? And this guy, I can't even remember his name or exactly who it was, but he said, Well, you know, I don't know. how to like act around these guys, like in the showers or in like whatever. And I don't know what just came to me, but I was like, don't flatter yourself. Nobody's into you. And then you looked a little bit hurt. How much do you think having that group of friends but I guess what do you think what do you think your school life at secondary school especially would have been like if you hadn't had that group? I feel like it was really, really important to me because I I really lacked confidence. And being around queer friends who were, you know, smart and brave and could kind of show me a way to be brave. Like my friends went to a gay bar, you know, w they would have been about sixteen, and they went a few times before I went with them, you know. all of my friends came out to their parents before I did. I you know, I they kind of paved the way for me in many ways. and so I was really grateful to have friends who were that kind of brave and confident. I wonder how much that's like Helps you in just being authentically yourself throughout the rest of your life. I feel like for me it took me such a long time to understand who I was. and I think I didn't have that confidence at school. I didn't, I very much I don't know if I wanted to fit in, but I was definitely gonna tell wasn't gonna tell anybody I was gay. And it's it's funny actually because a lot of the friends that I was friends with at that time are now gay. Or queer, but none of us said to each other then. And I was like the first person to come out. And then they've all kind of since come out. So I wonder if if we'd have had that if we'd have been able to be brave enough to tell each other younger how things might have looked looked different for us. I mean the the one big difference it made, not to be like shallow about it, but the one big difference it made was we would like constantly be discussing the boys in the school. Yeah, and I I I never had that and I would just think about it. Are you guys still still close friends now? after I moved to London, I think we we drifted apart a bit, but I've reconnected with a couple of the guys recently and it's interesting, like I I'm not gonna speak for other people, but there are a lot of similarities and our stories and how things developed for us since then. we've all struggled in different ways, like in adulthood. And it's kind of sad in a way, because like we had of that really good foundation. but like it takes a lot to overcome the kind of trauma of growing up in what is essentially a homophobic society. Yeah. and But like it's really nice to have reconnected and and still have those guys in my life. I get the impression that as a child you were a very happy, relatively happy child. And you mentioned that when you went to you went to uni when you were 17. and you said I went to uni b became an atheist And decided to stop coming out and to just be. Again, for me, it feels like at that time that was when I started coming out. So it's interesting that it's kind of the the inverse for you. when you say decided to To just be, how was that different to what you were sort of doing previously? Well when I went to university I was like, okay, this is a new like I I didn't really know anyone there. I was pretty much the only person from my school that was going to this university and I kinda wanted to make friends on my own terms in some ways and I wasn't gonna try and hide who I was in these new relationships. So and I also decided I wasn't gonna come out. so I kind of flipped it where I wasn't gonna hide any part of myself, but I wasn't gonna have this whole moment where I sat someone down and was like, by the way, I need to tell you something. Yeah. So that was what kind of changed for me. I was I I I I I developed a group of friends in university who were all girls actually. I with them I was like I would talk about guys I fancied or you know, I wouldn't hide things from them. Yeah. But I also didn't have a coming out moment. Because I was like, I don't want to do that anymore. Like I don't like I just wanna be me. Yeah. And if people well, first of all, like they should, you know, pick up on the signals and take the hint. Yeah. But if they wanted to kind of reject me or whatever, that was fine, that was up to them. Yeah. You know? I wasn't gonna stress about it. I also think those coming out moments can be s they're just exhausting. They're so tiring and you know, you still get them now when someone I don't know, if you're on the phone to a customer service and they assume your partner's a female or you know, in these these kind of small moments, they they definitely take a for me, I they they take a hit when you have to say, no, no, it's actually a it's actually a he, even though it's really small thing. So I think having that decision to just be like, I just wanna be me. And yes, being gay is such a big part of my personality, but it's not my my whole personality, so to speak. So through uni, you were completely yourself, which I love, and it feels like by this point you've you've got a really firm understanding of exactly who you are. Your your next point that you mentioned Two thousand and seven, we're skipping a skipping ahead, which is just a very simple I met the love of my life, which I loved reading because I know Tim and I think he's he's an amazing he's an amazing person. I'd love to understand A how you met Tim and B how your life has changed since you met him. Hmm. Yeah. we found love in a hopeless place. I love that. It was it was four AM in Fire in Vauxhall when I met Tim. he's very tall. I saw him from across the room. and I was at a very low point in my life. it was the first time that I'd kind of like lived on my own and stuff, and I went a bit wild. I was out like several nights a week, going home with guys, taking guys home, you know, all my new friend I I used my newfound freedom. Yeah. but I was in I was not in a great place mentally, and I was in a prime position to get into some quite toxic relationships. Okay. which I did. and my mental health got worse and worse. And I had I I didn't drink until I was sixteen because I in Ireland I took the pledge. it was like a religious thing and I said I wasn't gonna drink until I was sixteen and I didn't. Okay. And when I first started drinking, it didn't really have much of an effect on me. Like I didn't get drunk. I didn't get hangovers. and then when I went to France for my Erasmus year, it was the first time I ever got drunk. Even still, I didn't get hangovers. those are the days. Yeah. And at that time, some of my friends, you know, we would go out clubbing and some of them would like take drugs, like pills were quite a big thing, you know, at the end of the 90s, start of the 2000s. I didn't want to do that. Part of me, like I I also didn't I didn't want to be drunk because I was like the one thing that I always hold on to or held on to at that time was like my intellect and my ability to kind of like think and reason and I felt like yeah drinking or taking drugs would kind of take that away from me or like inhibit it in some ways. So I was kind of very anti that. But then in London eventually I decided to try drugs and it kind of like completely changed my life. not necessarily for the better. Okay. and so when I met Tim in two thousand and seven, I'd been like increasingly taking drugs at the weekend, and I would have like these big binges and highs, and it was mostly ecstasy I was doing. and then I would have these huge crashes when I went to work on like Monday and Tuesday. Tuesday in particular, like I would feel awful. It was probably the lowest I've ever been 'cause I I just really felt down and and I met Tim and I was very cautious, 'cause I was like, I really like this guy. I'm not sure if he's into me, I'm not sure if he's right for me, like all these kinds of things. But we from the moment we met, we basically spent the entire weekend together. I think we met on a Friday night. Yeah. we stayed together on the Friday night. And the in at his place. And then we went to my place on the Saturday to have dinner with my flatmates and me. And then he stayed over Saturday night as well. and I'd never had that before, like spent so much time with someone, you know, on after like what was essentially a one night stand. and like six months later, I needed to move out of the house share I was in. and you know, Tim and I had been getting on really, really well. We're spending most of our time together, other than the fact that so in this job I was working abroad four days a week. so we wouldn't we'd only see each other really at weekends. and I was really struggling to find a place to live. and so eventually I moved in with him. We d we like we didn't have a typical gay relationship, but we might have had a typical lesbian relationship in that like we formed a bond very quickly and we moved in together really fast. It does sound very lesbian. Yeah. and I we kinda never looked back. Yeah. we've been together nineteen years, through a lot. and I think our relationship is stronger now than it's ever been. I know you've been very vocal on your kind of TikTok around like your main thing is HIV and HIV awareness, which I think is amazing. to whatever level you want to, can you take me through your experience with that and how you've got to where you are now, which is ultimately you share videos with thousands of people online around multiple different parts of HIV, which is obviously really it's really valuable work. But how did you get to there? From this graduate corporate job There's a big there's a big difference between those two paths. Yeah. I so if I take you back to twenty thirteen, I had just turned thirty and Tim and I had been together for six years at this point. and I was things were not going well but I was trying to pretend they were as much as I could. Okay. So I started like hiding things. hiding how much I was taking drugs and drinking and I wasn't in a great place and I w I y I felt very low and didn't have a lot of confidence and I I was looking for validation in lots of different ways and I got ill. I had a I had like the signs of kind of some kind of an infection, but I had a like a rash and pain down one side of my body and I thought, this is not cold or flu, this isn't standard, I need to go and see a doctor. So I made an appointment to go and see my G P and when I went into that appointment, my G P basically just took one look at me and was like, You've got shingles. And I went, weird. I knew sort of what shingles was. you know, I'd had chickenpox as a child, it's it's that virus. Yeah. It tends to be something older people get as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know, you can get a a vaccine for it now and and they g they give it to older people because it can be quite painful and it it can be difficult when an older person gets it. But one of the reasons that older people might get it is because their immune system has is a bit low. or has been weakened. And so it was unusual for a healthy 30-year-old to to get shingles. And I was very lucky in that my doctor was like, well, I'm gonna give you the antiviral metric medication to take, which will get you through this and you should be better soon. But I'm not happy about this situation. so I'm just gonna send away for some extra tests. And you know, she took a bit of history and stuff, but she was like we're gonna send away for tests for diabetes and HIV. 'cause I think s something else might be going on. So off I went with my medication, started to get better, went back to work. and I was in the office in work when I got a phone call from the receptionist to say, Can you come in at the end of the day? The doctor wants to talk to you and I thought, I'm really busy. I don't wanna have to go all the way to the GP surgery. But then at the same time I was like, Well they don't call you in at the end of the day for like no reason. so I said fine, I would go Up till that point when when she'd mentioned to you we're gonna test for HIV and what was the other one? Diabetes. Did did they did you have any kind of thoughts about that at that point or was it just like they're doing these tests and and that's that kind of thing? I I felt kind of terrified 'cause I was worried that the HIV test might come back reactive. And the main worry I had was like how do I explain how this has happened? But and I think I was in denial, but what I was thinking was, it's probably diabetes. you know, there was some diabetes in my family and I thought like maybe maybe there was something going on there. so I I didn't really I wasn't prepared for the outcome. Sure. Or for like the consequences. and You know, I I had a it was a really weird experience arriving at the GP surgery. The waiting room was empty and like I was still going to a GP in an area where we used to live and it was chaos. Like it was always really busy in there. so I went into a really quiet surgery, went into the reception and they kind of said I could go in straight away to see the doctor. And I'm like, Okay, no wait, this is weird. And She sat me down and she said, you know, thanks for coming in. we've had all your results back and your HIV test has come back reactive. And I had a very similar experience to other people when they get a diagnosis like that, in that, you know, I don't really remember what happened. from that point on. and my GP was great. She was really, really supportive. She'd already made an appointment for me at the HIV clinic. she she told me like you're going here at this time, this is what's gonna happen next. you know, things are gonna be okay. do you want me to prescribe something to help you sleep? d you know, when you go home and see your partner, you know, be gentle and kind and like don't go making accusations and stuff, I think was was hit the point that she was coming from. but I was just in complete shock and I I I felt a lot of guilt, I felt a lot of shame, I felt like my life was over, and I my biggest worry was how am I going to tell Tim and how's he going react? and what like what kind of person would I be or what would I think of myself if I brought this into my into our relationship and if if I'd given it to him. And so I I was really anxious and I think probably the the thought crossed my mind, like, do I have to tell him this? and I thought, like, I can't not tell him. and they told me that I could take him with me to the HIV clinic to get him tested. so I I went home and waited for Tim to get home from work, and when he came in the door, he was like, how did it go, the doctor? And I was like, he could kind of see like suddenly that something was wrong and I like burst into tears.
