Sam Leith talks to the behavioural geneticist Robert Plomin about his new book Blueprint: How DNA Makes Us Who We Are, in which he argues that it’s not only height and weight and skin colour that are heritable, but intelligence, TV-watching habits and likelihood of getting divorced. They talk about the risks he takes publishing this book, the political third rail of race and eugenics, and what his discoveries mean for the future of our data and for medical care. You can read Kathryn Paige Harden’s review of Blueprint, meanwhile, in this week’s magazine.

Presented by Sam Leith.

United States


00:00:06well since the spectators books put cost I'm suddenly spectator this week I'm joined the professor a new book called blueprint how DNA makes us who we all up the first payment wielding the DNA makes us to a certain extent we all your books seems to make the case
00:00:24that it has fall formal wide reaching effects on us done are commonly thought a lot of the things that we take to be environmental are actually written in our jeans and you'll you'll role is a behavioral geneticists can you expand but what what that means okay we'll be
00:00:41able to notice is this means you studying the genetics of behavior but specifically individual differences why some people are schizophrenic others are why we different personality and learning ability mental health and illness so we're studying differences and we're looking at the one percent of our three billion base
00:01:00pairs of DNA that differ to say do those make a difference is between individuals between individuals was the ninety nine percent is what makes us human so it's all important in terms of the contribution to who we are but it's really important emphasize we're describing differences that exist
00:01:19in a population why some kids are reading disabled and others aren't and asking the extent to which DNA accounts for those differences and what we've learned during my forty five years of research in this area is that the inherited DNA differences account for a lot more of the
00:01:36differences than we used to think when I was in graduate school we used to think that number was zero you know when I was in graduate school it was dangerous professionally and sometimes personally to even talk about two medic influence it sounds like an exaggeration how but it
00:01:52really wasn't we were taught schizophrenia was caused by what your mother did to you in the first three years of life totally environmentalist if we are what we learned so this is quite a transformation in a number of my interviews now people saying well yeah of course everybody
00:02:07knows genetics is important what we've done surveys and people under estimate the power of genetics by about fifty percent so wait for example is about seventy percent heritable seventy percent of the differences between people can be explained by DNA differences were if you ask people on average that
00:02:26says about thirty percent of this concept heritability AS one maybe mass on packing a little bit because I think people have often quite model that yesterday about how genes actually work on us so that that's exactly right heritability is a descriptive statistic of a particular population it's not
00:02:46like a constant like the speed of light it's not deterministic like single gene disorders you know where if you have a gene for Huntington's you'll die from Huntington's disease unless something else kills you first that's where we learn about genetics from mental you know single genes that have
00:03:02these deterministic hardwired effects but not just behavior but all of medicine complex traits in common disorders like cardio vascular disease or the physiological ingredient there is a blood pressure or you know physiological measures they're all very substantially influenced by genetic differences between people but what we've learned in
00:03:28the last few years it's not certainly not one gene ten jeans a hundred teens were talking about thousands of DNA differences of very very small effect and that means it's gonna be very difficult to work out the gene brain behavior pathways but for me and for many medical
00:03:44people it's the ability to put those tiny differences together in what we call a polygenic score to predict behavior or medical disorder without knowing anything about what goes on in between so that's the big thing now is we can use DNA to predict heritability and that happens over
00:04:04a population does it I mean you have to have a presumably wide spread of samples to you for that to define what effects unit huge samples hundreds of thousands if not a million people because you need the power to pick up these very tiny effects reliably and can
00:04:23you talk a bit about the populations the samples that you were using to sort of strip out if you like environmental factors or to to control for them yeah the study is that it's not just my studies but studies run with a primarily European north American Australia some
00:04:40in Southeast Asia but they're mostly European samples and so the point there is the using twins on you twins and adoptees but the big thing now is you can use DNA itself to estimate heard ability with unrelated people it's called snip heritability snippets a single nucleotide polymorphism so
00:05:00there's ten million of those among three billion base pairs of DNA that differ between us and so you can actually estimate heritability using DNA alone now with unrelated individuals I could explain how we do that but I think the important point is it's not just reliant on one
00:05:18method but very different methods each of which have their own problems but they converge on the conclusion that inherited DNA differences account for a lot of the differences between people across the board and as you've described I mean there are some things that side of it I mean
00:05:34one could maybe say has certain psychological disorders you could see how they might have a some police genic indicated behind them but you said you can show correlations between you know your the heritability of things like getting divorced or how much television you watery from what television you
00:05:50watch which is very very counterintuitive I mean did you sort of have to go back and double check results as the data sort of so strong that it it supports the stuff on it quickly no actually I was surprised in the eighties when we first started finding this
00:06:05that you know there are hundreds of environmental measures used in psychology like life events is B. one parenting you know how parents are the authoritarian or how loving the how that sort of thing hundreds of these measures and there environmental measures so they can't show genetic influence because
00:06:22they don't have DNA it comes from our old way of thinking about the environment the environments what happens to us and that comes out of the old learning theory stimulus response theory were what the environment is it's like you've got a rat in a cage and you shock
00:06:37it or you starve it it definitely has nothing to do with that route I mean you know big passively receiving environment but you think about what we study in call the environment in psychology in all the social sciences it's things like life events in the big items there
00:06:53are having financial problems getting into complex with people losing your job you know if you think about it for a minute you say well actually that isn't the environment out there independent of us we contribute to that and it might be a little harder to swallow this one
00:07:09but that's also true divorce does divorce just happen to us you know some people get divorced more than other people what is that and and we know what some of the personality factors are that are involved but the most shocking thing is you know the best predictor of
00:07:24whether you get divorced is whether your parents were divorced and is a great example because environmentalists had no trouble with that right you know college history one very obvious conclusion from that's right yeah that its environmental and you you have a bad role models for stable relationships and
00:07:39you know your identity formation is messed up turns out it's all genetic that prediction from parents to offspring old genetic come in this very categorical thing to say well it's just empirical to statistical in Sweden has been added options study of two million families were you in Sweden
00:07:56the all the records are open like adoption records there's no phoney birth certificates as there are in many countries so you're able to say kids adopted at birth %HESITATION they resent if their adoptive parents get divorced are they more likely to get divorced no if their birth parents
00:08:14who they didn't see after the hospital in the first week of life get divorced later in life that's the same risk for them being divorced even though they never shared family environment with those biological relatives as the collision exacts amend this no no no it's a great record
00:08:29Asian the prediction of you getting divorced and your parents getting divorced me note it's just them a modest sort of prediction even though it's the best predictor we have an adult population as it is in the that's right yes that is right yeah so it's a great example
00:08:43though of a new way of thinking about the environment isn't this passive model that the environment is what happens to us but rather we create and selecting modifier environments in part based on a genetic propensity this will be in the nature of no that's exactly right yeah in
00:09:02life and I think that's profound in terms of education for example you know the word instruction means to shove it in basically ins to Hera and education means you bring it out and what this is suggesting is that we ought to be thinking more about bringing it out
00:09:16we're not shoving a national curriculum in the kids were actually giving them the opportunity to learn things and with their always gonna be individual differences in that in those individual differences in learning are largely genetic and then as we get rid of the environmental disparities it'll be increasingly
00:09:33due to genetics so it's just a new way of thinking about the environment which is in a way education as well one of the things that I think for a lay person not myself it's tricky to get round is we think okay you're able to provide very hot
00:09:49days for about you know the degree of correlation between say particular minute genetic marker and height causing a height is something you can measure whether or not you've been divorced a something committed but you also talk about psychological behavioral traits which feels like you to if you like
00:10:04a soft science because them that much more subjective the much more variable is it possible to be a source of crisp with your conclusions when the metrics for what you're measuring or as you know fuzzy as the psychological metrics we have I mean for instance you you talk
00:10:23about the fact that the psychological psychiatric establishment regards psychiatric illness in a combined re way that you have all the schizophrenia %HESITATION you haven't gone clinical depression you haven't and he's actually that's not even a reasonable reflection of things so that suggests that you'll you'll data gathering itself
00:10:42it could become a fuzzy at the end of the process with this a couple of points there that that latter one is one that I'm really keen on the issue of diagnoses versus dimensions and but that's quite separate from where you started which is the difficulty in measuring
00:10:57psychological constructs and in we often say psychologies hard in a way it's much more difficult to measure these things but as a result psychologist that paid much more attention to measurement issues and so alike issues of reliability and validity so for example tests of learning ability among them
00:11:17a more robust measures we have some of these physiological medical measures blood pressure it's very very difficult to measure it's not very reliable it's so dynamic it changes with these stand up or sit down so in a way we have kind of a bias against behavioral measures cognitive
00:11:33ability can be measured more reliably and its more stable over the lifespan than many other things like wait for example so it's not a constant at all but I think just to say well you can't measure these things therefore we can't do good science on them is probably
00:11:48wrong and even for things like personality questionnaires which are just self report to you could have your friends rates you are teachers of parents Rachel and it still is pretty much perception isn't it but none the less those perceptions are stable over a long period of time they
00:12:05predict other things like they predict job performance and an even educational achievement so they're not nothing and they are what they are that's what we measure so it's still interesting for me to say well let's ask if there's genetic influence just like we did with these environmental measures
00:12:23which couldn't possibly show genetic influence but what you find is on average about twenty five percent of the differences on the so called environmental measures that we use in psychology show genetic influence and that's where I was getting to it that you know it's it once you understand
00:12:38that it's not so surprising because you create your environment it's not as if the environment like life events or even divorced nothing to do with you they don't just happen to you you're involved in whether they happen or not to the tennis is of your findings consign Freud
00:12:55in his disciples to the dust bin full time do you think well they've been consigned to the dustbin for about fifty years there's no science done on Freud or young or these armchair philosopher you know they were collecting empirical data collected anecdotes so Karl Popper uses Freud as
00:13:12an example of the sins against the first commandment of science that is also a liability exactly right you can't falsify Freud because it's just anecdotal and whether you believe it or not yeah but if you believe him it does seem to work to some extent we we have
00:13:28a huge industry and I don't know how Buell volatile or otherwise that believes the talking kill can help with mental distress goal even in a quite serious psychological disorders you think that says a placebo effect will no not at all but the talking cure isn't really Freud Freud
00:13:47is a very specific set of hypotheses about early childhood development it's all what your mother did to you in the first few years of life talking here is a cognitive behavior therapy is a talking to her in a way isn't it it's you know it's very valuable so
00:14:01you can find genetic influence on things and that doesn't mean you can't alleviate those problems I think of our mental through environmental mechanisms yeah it doesn't mean only drugs are going to work if it's genetic the causes and cures aren't necessarily related but it just seems sensible to
00:14:18know the great extent to which genetics is important because in terms of therapies the exciting thing now is a treatment by genotype interaction people you know like with methylphenidate and ADHD hyperactive kids attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in the states you got that diagnosis you almost automatically get an
00:14:40amphetamine as a treatment a methylphenidate like Ritalin and it's coming more and more to the UK and this quite a battle about it now but what if you could say these kids with a high genetic risk which we can assess merely within a we don't need any other
00:14:54information these kids will profit from methylphenidate these others won't so why would you give it to them if they're not going to profit or even more here's a group that will actually be impaired as a result of being given these amphetamines can I cover that when you save
00:15:12his group this can benefit from the mouth of the date here minute genetically we can identify them do you mean that there will be one group of children have ADHD genetically on one group %HESITATION dent or is it simply more reliable web diagnosing ADHD in the first place
00:15:27yes with this gets in the point you raised earlier about diagnosis versus the mentions these polygenic scores that involved summing thousands of DNA differences waiting them by how will they predict say what we call ADHD these polygenic scores are perfectly normally distributed like a bell shaped curve there's
00:15:47no cut off at which you could say %HESITATION these kids are hyperactive there are kids with problems certainly and the dimension has a very high risk into it but to say that there's a a a a dis order it doesn't make any sense it's all quantitative it's it's
00:16:05a matter of more or less rather than either or so we all have lots of the genes for ADHD it's just a question of how many you have and if you way out there you'll be at much greater risk so like schizophrenia perfectly normally distributed you take the
00:16:22top ten percent of this poly genic score distribution top decile top ten percent to fifteen fold greater risk of being diagnosed as schizophrenic now I don't accept the diagnosis I think it's a dumb way to think about it you know that we should be thinking we all have
00:16:41schizophrenia Jane's question how many we have in a tent if there's no disorder there's no cure because there is no disorder to cure it's a matter of alleviating symptoms and that's where a lot of that research is going on C. B. T. we mentioned before is probably the
00:16:55biggest advance now in terms of treating schizophrenia just show people how to act and how to respond and so that they function better in society rather than drugging them down so that their symptoms aren't so floor it you know so this is really revolutionizing clinical psychology and in
00:17:16a way because you can predict that's the thing that hasn't quite happened yet but that's the next big thing early intervention you can prevent problems before they occur which is where all of medicines trying to go in we can do a pretty good job now with DNA of
00:17:30predicting cardiovascular risk and so it's a great example because if you could say you're at really high cardiovascular risk the usual dictum eat well exercise you to stay active it'll mean more to you because you know it when I can have a totalitarian government that makes you do
00:17:48those things but to say you know if this is more important this message for you because if you don't do these things you're at like a fifteen fold greater risk for having a heart attack so that's why I I'll just get it in now me we'll talk about
00:18:02it later but that's why I think it's so important have the NHS here I really think we're going to have these politics scores on the NHS because I got to do is genotypes someone once and you'll do it for medical disorders and then if we knew for example
00:18:17I mean doctor for cardiovascular disease maybe for obesity but then what about alcoholism you know Francis Collins who's the head of the national institutes of health in United States and was the director of the human genome project he says in a few years we're gonna look back and
00:18:32say it was incredibly unethical that we weren't getting this DNA data on people yeah just for prevention of the unit you raise the NHS I mean the obvious sort of on the side of it politically as in a society like the US where you have privatized healthcare you've
00:18:49got a health insurance Willys polygynous schools not be something we can you know people be anxious that you get at the health insurance to be unaffordable if the funds have somebody like public school for this with the other how would you be safe because I don't see how
00:19:02it's going to work with the money based insurance based sort of medical system because if they know you're at high genetic risk for cardiovascular disease they can spread that risk out over a whole population they've got to eat it so if there's any way they can get out
00:19:18of insuring you it would be tremendously to their advantage commercial so I don't see how it's going to work in terms of that sort of system but it's happening so they're gonna have to deal with it would be something you think I mean I've been with straying off
00:19:30off the hard science but would you projects will be something that that would be private to you and then with that bit with managing it well that's my take decisions based on it yeah and you know there are these thousands of single gene disorders they if they're necessary
00:19:44and sufficient for the development of the disorder so that's been legislated to ready in terms of insurance companies can't use that information to discriminate against you but it doesn't quite work because what if you want to twenty three and me a direct to consumer company and you find
00:20:00out you're at high cardiovascular risk so you can get yourself insured for that risk and if the insurance company didn't know about that would sort of be unfair to them in a way you know and so and and also if you had a problem they would send out
00:20:18investigators did find out existing condition is also a pre existing condition exactly right yeah so the only way I can it's one of the huge I think pluses in terms of the NHS we ought to be able to use this as a way of saying aren't we lucky
00:20:31we have at least for the moment an NHS what other things are it took me like because again it quite often in discussions of psychology in gonna human cognition that seems to be a sort of in a face off between if you like the straight forward you know
00:20:48psychologists the psychological theorists and the papers that we do nearest signs we know how this works and you seem to actually be able to going to be one of the first loss for the %HESITATION scientific assumptions the sector also get excuse that a lot of the stuff but
00:21:02bring localization and intelligence taking place in certain kind of little consequence in the brain is not since and that actually we have general cognitive ability rather than specific ones yeah well any trait we study including these brain traits you know you got to measure things in the brain
00:21:19you know and we do they're all influenced genetically but all too medic influence involves thousands and thousands of tiny DNA differences and each of those DNA differences don't have a simple path through the brain they all affect multiple aspects of the brain which makes sense to me the
00:21:38brain involved as a general problem solver it didn't evolve to be make it easy work for neuro scientist to trace pathways between jeans at two behavior through the brain so it just all make such sense to me and so that's why I mean I get in trouble for
00:21:55this I don't want to knock other areas but you know the the modular approach of neuroscience which is based on the idea this bit of the brain does that it lights up when you have this particular task you know I just don't see how that's going to make
00:22:08sense when from a genetic point of view it's so we call it pleiotropic keno genes have multiple effects and polygenic anything you study is going to be influenced by many many genes so the signals of the sort of going to dispense fuel brain does this argument is going
00:22:25to look for twenty years time more like kind of ashamed phonology well there's quite a bit of discussion of that now even I think you know the systems approaches to the brain or maybe a better way to think about it you know rather than looking for the simple
00:22:40pathways or pretending when this bit of the brain lights up with that task you've identified the brain localization of that phenomena but do you know it's it's not my area and I shouldn't really be taking pot shots at it I'm particularly irritated because I study education and neuro
00:22:57education is kind of the hot thing so education people are the last bastion of anti genetic thinking that just don't want to think about genetics they love neuroscience though because they pretend that the things they're trying to do are based on sound neuro principles no way I mean
00:23:16you know we don't know much at all about these things but you know that one of the latest but one of the gimmicks a couple years ago was a balance board see you have a ball and you have a boarding you try to balance on that's going to
00:23:27cure reading disability why because some neuroscientists says without very little justification the problem is in the vestibular system the balance system inside the inner ear how you could say that but then all you gotta do is buy this balance beam for twenty five pounds and you know kids
00:23:45can rock on and have a good time and it'll often show effects early on that's called the Hawthorne effect anything works initially but of course it doesn't work in the long run but that's the level at which this neuro education is gone but again I'm criticizing other areas
00:24:00and actually a lot of positive things to say about genetics know what he said early on and about you describe you'll investigation I think it was into TV watching and you say to I really has has published this because I thought it was gonna be a professional suicide
00:24:15note you know you take a long time to publish this book and you said I think in interviews today you are anxious about it there is a you know it's hugely politically of determined issue isn't it I mean is the sort of flood rarely slightly avoided which is
00:24:30rice and the book how do you approach the political implications of what you're doing apart from cautiously well that last clause is not nothing Sisley I mean to start always by saying there are no necessary policy implications are used to give an example you can have a right
00:24:50wing set of values and apply to these the showing genetic influence on behavior you can have a left wing policy no necessary policy implications follow that depends on your values I think so that's one way I avoid it and the others to say I'm a scientist I think
00:25:06these are important scientific findings they have implications and think they have to impact on society in education even self understanding so that's why I wrote the book because I I do want to launch this discussion especially now that the DNA revolution is on us it's not a matter
00:25:24saying you know in general abstractly genetics is important saying I can measure your DNA from the cell you left on your Cup that you're drinking and determine your whole genome and use that to make some pretty strong predictions about behavior and this is only in the last two
00:25:43or three years and the power of these approaches is increasing as we recognize that we have to have huge samples to detect these very tiny effects so I say in the book that by the time people read this the results will gotten much stronger and that's really true
00:25:59even faster than I thought so we do need to have a discussion about these issues and people who know more about the ethical side the policy side you know let them join the conversation I'm concerned that people know this is happening it's not like one of the things
00:26:15yes sometime down the line this will have an impact this is important right now four million people have gotten their genomes done by twenty three in may and I think it also we need to have the DNA literacy to be able to join this conversation so that's the
00:26:31main reason I wanted to write the book now although as you were alluding to partly the reason I didn't do it thirty years ago was covered this do I mean that you know as I say the third row is race to an extent is it's axiomatic to you
00:26:46as a scientist that if say data demonstrated that as well as cutting in certain respects full minute at the counter folds all melanin old in a blonde had some V. apologetic school within a particular racial population might have an effect on say I. Q. or something like that
00:27:05which oversees the bell curve which is the thing that was hanging over this what would you responsibilities scientists be if that was the what the way the data was pointing well first of all as the individual differences and there's no necessary relationship between the causes of individual differences
00:27:21and the causes beverage differences between groups like you say race they could both within you know both populations it could be highly heritable a particular trait like learning ability doesn't mean that the average difference between those groups is genetic so the some famous examples you know by the
00:27:38geneticist wanton about that with court so it could be prejudice for example discrimination that makes for the main difference between the groups secondly we don't have to address that issue now because we own the populations for which this research has been done our northern European sometimes north American
00:27:57population eventually that will probably happen though that these other groups will demand that they also get the data to give them polygenic scores but I think I'm just gonna docket though by saying it's not what I do the average difference between groups is small compared to the individual
00:28:14differences within groups and we can do we can understand the individual differences it's very hard to definitively prove what the cause of an average difference between groups is even males and females and certainly classes and certainly racial groups so it's so politically fraught I think I'm just gonna
00:28:33say I don't have to study everything and so I'm going to focus on individual differences that I've question do I mean agendas another issue and the I suppose what I put a CZ does a more or less a progressive orthodoxy which is of a kind of radical constructivism
00:28:53said a blank slate idea that the cultural differences between us who is our side that the gender gender differences are essentially cultural do you think there is any value in that is told us that a political convenience we can that's an average difference between groups and I study
00:29:09developmental psychopathology where we get the biggest differences between boys and girls you know like hyperactivity maybe five full greatest but every problem is greater in boys than in girls except maybe depression later on in life but it's interesting with the genetic tools we have at hand we can't
00:29:26find any genetic causes of those differences but as I say it's much harder to definitively addressed the cause of an average difference between groups rather than individual differences within each group so these polytonic scores predict just as well for males as they do for females said the essential
00:29:45you can look out of my mind is the individual that we can do powerfully we have great strong methods for doing that and the average differences between groups you know I I I know people are quite interested in that but I think it's a very much more difficult
00:29:58topic to get that get a handle on and it's also so fraught in you know so I'd rather deal of course usually for his just as you know somebody reading a book that think that hair some December definitively if if after that pointing a finger at a certain
00:30:13distance down the road saying it DNA kind really predict really strongly certain things about us and there's always a further portion of road that that leads to that that full with a lease plus clans artists do you think gonna as a scientist this point to which side's might
00:30:30go you know what thus far north of the well there's a much evidence for that is there means scientists will pursue these things and I think that's a reason to have this conversation %HESITATION if you particularly concerned about will it be used to study gender differences or ethnic
00:30:46group differences maybe you know should talk about that now it's actually goes the other way though you know that minority groups are really keen to be involved in the genetics you know for the US they don't allow you to study one ethnic group you have to if you're
00:31:03gonna get a U. S. grant study all ethnic groups at least proportionate to their size in the sample unless you specifically doing something like studying disadvantaged individuals so I think it might go the other way that minority groups are saying what about us I mean you're not you
00:31:19can't assume that these polygenic scores the pretty cardio vascular disease in northern Europeans will also predict in all other populations unity and in general they don't predict I'm you'll some quite northern European yeah it's all European tell us what's next for you well it's to enjoy this actually
00:31:40I mean it for forty five years I've been wanting to get to the point where we can actually have DNA that makes these projections and then to study the sorts of things we've always been interested in but having the precision of a DNA index rather than just this
00:31:53general sort of family risk so I want to study development how early do these things develop for example especially gene environment interplay can we find ways in which these genetic propensities interact with environments to particular types of educational programs work particularly well for certain kids but the the
00:32:14one thing I'm doing it most upstream classes by genome rather than by what we wouldn't assume one size fits all in terms of education because that's it doesn't you know and the old model of a teacher standing in front of a classroom of thirty kids standing in delivering
00:32:32a lecture that boards half of them is over the heads of the other half I mean why why don't we free teachers up to give special help two kids who needs need help like with math in Iraq it's such push back on this from the education community but
00:32:45you know the idea of personalized learning it just seems like a no brainer to me we see it with math you know were you there are these wonderful programs that allow kids to go as far and as fast as they want kids were going more slowly it's called
00:32:58adaptive learning it branches out to simpler problem so that they don't feel you know and don't get turned officer that's exactly what I mean by personalized learning computers are very very good at that then teachers think it's putting them out of business but I think it ought to
00:33:13put them in business of really educating and helping specific kids who are having problems much of which is social and behavioral it isn't really learning problems you know they got to learn to get along and that sort of thing so I'm really excited about where this will go
00:33:28in terms of education but also because I'm an I come from a solicitor back on this my interest is in books and literature and culture is there anything that escapes deny anything cultural roots the what's actually become code for and city to be good at portrayal have as
00:33:49a particular aesthetic II or do you think that finally over that slot machines will I don't know see picker talks about that in his wonderful book from fifteen years ago called the blank slate and he got in the most trouble for the chapter on art suggesting that that
00:34:04also shows evolutionary influence that's at the species universal level he's not talking about individual differences there are surprisingly few studies of artistic creativity you know it's hard to measure for one thing so it makes a version of it I'd be amazed if there wasn't some genetic influence on
00:34:24that but you know as you know you can be genetics isn't he said coating you know it's not the Charmander coding you know it's just influence it nudges you in one direction or another an increasingly I think the nudges are in terms of appetites as much as aptitudes
00:34:41anything it's genetic means you got some wiring in your brain that's different I think it's like that I think it's much more complex and organismic you know that I find kids do what they like to do and they do that a lot and they do it better and
00:34:55I'm sure that's true with art to music you know you you do what you like to do an because of that you do better you know it's all this kind of correlation it's this gene environment correlations and even if you don't have any talent you can go pretty
00:35:11far as we see in the world of art you know at the most would be some people really don't have much talent they just have good agents thank you very much indeed you listening to the spectators books part cost you enjoyed it and if you did please to
00:35:25consider rating will reviewing us on the iTunes store would love to have

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