Full Transcript for How a Fake WNBA Problem Became a Real Culture War Against Trans Kids -- Episode 2

little pompous, and you take that and you're like, look at all this information I got. That's not our problem. Our problem is just to inform you. And so today, as you might have learned by the Cold Open, we are talking about the WNBA and their trans issue as spotlighted by Royce White and in his Cantor Freedom. And Daniel: Freedom. Derek: I will get you up to date on what's going on with that, but wait. Before I speak, before I even really Daniel: Mm-hmm. Derek: give you the topic, for Daniel speaks, for Mariana speaks, one man and one man only must speak because he's here's the secret. This I know this is only the second episode back, but here's the secret: if I don't do this, he's gonna do it anyway. So I made it into a segment because you know I'm a producer, I'm good like that. And of course, this is Terrell Huff's first take. Who's it? Sponsored by Debbie! Daniel: Nobody. Derek: Still not sponsored by anybody. We still don't have a sponsor. Take it away. Thespian Papi: Gotta get our money right. So yeah, just like last week, we're gonna keep it brief, we're gonna keep it simple. When it comes to the trans community, if you're not gonna be an ally, if you're not gonna be an advocate, and I say this as respectfully as possible, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. You're bringing nothing to the table. Shut the fuck up. The petty bullshit where you play this. I'm going to be trans now since everybody can just, or I'm going to be a woman now, since I can everybody can just pick and choose. It trivializes and minimizes decades of absolute horror in some cases that the trans community has had to go through just to be recognized, just to be. Able to walk around in their own skin and feel comfortable to a small degree. So the idea of just simply pronouncing yourself something gives the impression that that's how being a member of the trans community works, and it's not. So I go back to my original point: be an ally, be an advocate, or shut the fuck up. Derek: Dare I say that might have been Terrell's best first take ever. That was, of course, Tyrrell Huff's first take. Who's it sponsored by Daniel? Daniel: Sponsored by nobody. Derek: Yeah, j just because it was good doesn't mean it was sponsored by anybody. It was really good, but it's still not sponsored. So we'll work on that. We'll Thespian Papi: Yeah. Derek: we'll be better. We'll be better about that next week. We won't be better about that Thespian Papi: Absolutely. Derek: next week. So this is a pretty simple topic to catch y'all up on. what kicked all this off is in an ESPN article spotlighting a profile on Sophie Cunningham that kicked off about the end of July time, Sophie Cunningham said said this. the author of the article was talking about how Sophie Cunningham has been labeled kind of a MAGA Barbie. She doesn't see herself that way. and so that kind of took a life of his own. So here's what that was said. You s you say she's a MAGA Barbie, as some corners of the internet have taken to calling her. Projection, she says, because of what she looks like and where she's from. Show weigh in on how to protect women's sports, she says, because she's in that world and feels qualified to speak to that world. I got a lot of negative feedback about me hating trans. I'm like, I never once said that, she says. I think that I'm here to extend love, but I also think with that love is truth, being honest, and I want to protect young girls in the locker room or young girls in sports who shouldn't have to go against biological men. But she also insists that none of that that is some Rosetta Stone to unlocking the true nature of her political worldview. I'm very much in the middle. I agree with things on both sides, disagree with things on both sides. And that's all I've ever said about my political beliefs, but people love to assume. So that kicked off weeks of protests and counter protests at WNBA games, some supporting the trans community, some supporting Cunningham and making her the face of anti trans of an anti trans movement that has been going on in political circles for Whew, a long time now, even though it's questionable if there is actually something that needs to be remedied. So eventually that led to people, the WNBA saying, hey, only women can play in this sport. And they didn't really define what that meant. So of course, Royce White and in his Cantor Freedom decided that they could just say that they were women and declared for the WNBA draft. So they did that last Friday, actually somewhat amid us recording, at least Royce White did. Daniel: That's what I want. Derek: And that led to a whole other can worms, because now people are like, what is the WNBA gonna do about this? Because Daniel: Which is so much. Derek: And it's canon freedom and Royce White say that they're women and want to play in the WNBA, so now the WNBA must take a hard stance. And the WNBA kinda just said, no, we don't really have to do that. They did convene a meeting last excuse me on Wednesday, where they wanted to talk about trans issues and provide further clarity. They released this statement after the meeting. Today's meeting covered a wide range of topics, including ongoing discussions on transgender athletes and the continued hate and vitriol directed at players online. We will continue to engage all league stakeholders in the coming weeks and months. We're approach we will approach these important conversations thoughtfully and in alignment with the values of our league. There are no immediate eligibility matters affecting the WNBA, and we strongly denounce the bad faith efforts to use these topics to demean or marginalize others. And so that is mostly where we stand. In his can of freedom and Morris White try to make a point, I suppose. my advice is showing. And the WNBA outwardly rejected that point and we're kind of moving on from there. I know that Mariana wanted to cook some fools and so I'm actually just gonna let her do that right now off the

top. Mariana, what do you got on this top? Mariana: So first of all, I'm really, hello everyone. I drove for like seven hours-ish, so that's why I'm a little bit loopy today, but not loopy that I can't do what I'm about to do right now. So first of all, let's start with Sophie Cunningham. I'm really glad that you brought her up because one of the things, I did my research on her and I did see that she said that she wants to protect women. And my question about that is, Because she said that she wants to be honest and that with love comes truth. And I would like to know what women she's talking about. Specifically, which women is she looking to protect? Like, is it Venus and Serena Williams, perhaps? Because I know that they are not in WNBA. But is it like, that's like the biggest I can pull from as an example of like, what kind of women in like WNBA? Or maybe perhaps is it like, like, the girls coming in from like college, because I know of a specific situation that I had been watching where there was a young girl that graduated here and like, here I go again for getting names, but I know that she was active in the, in the, like in the league and basketball, women's basketball. And it made news because her coach basically flamed everyone for like not a single person ever acknowledging her, her entire career. And She's a black athlete. She's not the one that ever got any accolades in her college career, not a single type. And she broke, not a single one, and she broke a lot of records. And I can look that up and get that information, but I remember watching that. that's why I wanna know when Sophie Cunningham says, I wanna protect girls, I would like to know which girl she's talking about. Because I'm pretty sure I know which one she's talking about. And it's not, it's, white girls. Like it's almost always white girls. And that's the danger in saying that you want to protect women and that you want to like protect them from biological men. Because then what you're saying is, you know what, we don't know how to, we don't really know how to do our own job. Like I'm basically saying that the WNBA and the people who built this house don't know how to upkeep the house. So I'm giving an okay. for any person to come in and help us police what women look like and what that looks like. And then you end up getting situations where there will be a woman athlete like Venus and Serena Williams, who will be told, you're not performing womanhood the right way. You're too, too tall or you're too like big or you're too, you're too what? What? They're too what? Exactly. So yeah, yeah, Derek: Ma masculine quote unquote. I want that be to be very clear. That's in quotations. Mariana: you're too masculine. So to me, it is just the biggest because like I do, I do for the sake of like the argument, I want to be fair because I don't think that like the two men necessarily had identical intentions. I looked both of them up. And so I knew Inez or Inez, however you say it,

is not coming at it from the same that like homeboy the other one did, because I looked him up and I was like, we got a Chris Brown of sports is what we got with Royce White. This is different. And as is literally, really want, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is coming at it from like, he really thinks that he's, that he is doing something like, and I'm going to give him the most charitable interpretation possible. I think it's already a bit of a stretch, but for the sake of the argument, I'm going to put the blinders on. Okay, let's assume that this is generally a good faith attempt to challenge what he sees as an inconsistency in the WNBA's regulations. So let's say he genuinely believes he's identified a contradiction and wants to test whether those rules are actually applied consistently. Okay, okay, so I can work with that. And that's what I'm thinking when I'm like wrestling with this. Because I don't think the problem is simply that a man walked into like a woman's basketball space. I'm not interested in saying that men aren't allowed to watch women's basketball or support women's basketball or talk about women's basketball. or challenge like policies within women's basketball. But where I think we have to separate intent from impact is right there. Because I'm not saying that like, as I said, that they have like the same intentions, I still don't think that. But even with those blinders on, even if I give and as the strongest possible good faith interpretation, I don't think those their interpretations are going to have like severely different impacts. Like they they may have different intents, but they're both going to do the same thing. And for me, it's this paternalism. It's this paternalism of like, I don't think he's literally thinking that he's trying to save women. But when I combine what he has actually said about wanting to test women's WNBA regulations with a public identity he's built for himself as a human rights activist, I think it's fair to examine the role he's positioning himself to play here. His argument is essentially, I looked at the rules for the WNBA. I believe that they allow me to do this. And I'm going to test whether you will apply those rules consistently. And that's if I give him like the most charitable interpretation, he's positioning himself as somebody who's exposing what he believes is an injustice or any consistency. But that creates a pretty remarkable dynamic because the institution he's challenging is a women's professional like basketball league. So even if he doesn't literally say, I'm here to save women, that's what it starts to look like. It starts to look like I'm going to expose the women running this institution for failing to uphold the principles I believe they should uphold. So that's why I'm like, so you're being condescending. You think you're here to like, you women, you silly little women, you thought you knew what you were doing. I'm here to like fix it. It's what

it's giving. And for me, when you are someone like Sophie Cunningham, is like consistently using this as like your hill to die on, you are kinda that type of archetype that will like, there's always going to be, it's never gonna be like, it's not always gonna be a man that fights to uphold. like patriarchy, there will also be women that do that. And to me, Sophie Cunningham is one of those women who's like, I am here to help continue this cycle. And she kind of, she kind of like set this into motion. Like she's giving the green light for men to come and save women from themselves is how I see it. Even if that's not her intention, again, your intention and your impact are not the same thing. You can, I believe she believes she's trying to protect women. I really do. But I want to know what kind of women she wants to protect. That's like, that's the biggest thing that's going off in my head. Okay, which women? Tell me please quickly what they look like. Quickly, because once we start with, I'm not saying it'll always be this way, but once, one of my favorite things to say is we are not all safe until we're all safe. Until we're all safe, we're not all safe. So if you're going to start having these regulations around what womanhood looks like in bad faith, we're going to want to keep these genetic men out of here. Like even even people who are trans will sometimes have that. mean, hello, homegirl Miss Jenner over here. One of the biggest advocates for anti-trans rules in sports. Sometimes the call is going to come from inside the house as well, but that doesn't mean that like it's not problematic. There will be people even inside the house that are part of the problem of like trying to keep that house. small and controlled. And so for me, it's all connected. And unfortunately, I find it disgusting because we shouldn't be talking about these two men. We shouldn't be talking about Royce White. We shouldn't be talking about and, and as I'm sorry, and as, and as Cantor freedom, we shouldn't be talking about him. We shouldn't be talking about Sophie Cunningham. We should be talking about the trans kid at home who's just like trying to decide, is there a future for me? at all. There's a huge difference between is there a future and my god there is a future. I want to talk about the fact that trans kids are disproportionately more likely to be like have housing insecurity and that 8 % of trans adults are going to be have housing insecurity versus 1 % of cis adults. That is what they live with every day. I want to talk about the fact that like for me specifically I a couple months ago I wrote an article about drag culture. And the original question that I was exploring was how drag culture, how drag moves culture forward. But what it ended up becoming was like a question of lineage of who was here first, who built the space, who keeps it alive before anyone else notices it. And I kept coming back to this idea of like the house that I keep talking about. And

that's what I think is the same with the WNBA. Who was here before it became this legitimate thing? When they didn't have enough money, when no one took them seriously, who was there building this up? Now that it's built up, now that they've fought for this, like, more visibility, now you've got these washed up former WM, like, former NBA players going, huh, I think I can get some attention from there. Huh, I think I can go and, like, bastardize this, this, like, position of, like, where a trans athlete can enter. I think I could bastardize that just to give myself a little attention, just because I want some attention. In that article that I brought up, I talked to three different drag performers and Like the thing that kept coming up with all of them is that they never saw themselves out there. And until they saw themselves out there, then they felt like their life had any worth at all. Like there was anything possible that it matters. So to me, to see these idiots using this, this, this thing, there are trans athletes. I want to talk about trans athletes that are in there right now and give them their flowers because that is not easy. And those, those trans athletes, There's a child at home right now watching those athletes going, I have a future. I matter. I can exist. I don't have to hide. don't have to like, I like there's something out there. And I know because I've spoken with these trans, these former trans children who are now trans performers who are now like out there showing the visibility that it matters to them. It makes all the difference. Even if they just see one face, it makes all the difference. It's the difference between I matter and I should live and, and like, Should I even have a future? So that's all that I have to say. Derek: So there was a lot, there's a lot to unpack there. very well said by Mariana. This is one of the reasons that we brought her back for a second week on the podcast so she could provide some of this and she's done some of the harder work than some of us have done, obviously, and actually talking to people and reporting and putting an article there. So of course we'll link to that article in the show description as well so that everyone can read that good work. And I just I didn't want to do it in real time because you're cooking, but it is in his canter. So so that's not important, but it is important. So I had to I had to correct it. And I don't I I think you're gonna call him Inez the whole podcast, but it's I have to try. Mariana: I knew I knew I'm gonna be very honest. I'm gonna be honest. I knew I could have looked it up, but I didn't want to bother anymore like attention with this man. Daniel: Okay. Derek: You know, I just I have to look out for the guy online who's gonna be like, They didn't know the name of his baby blah blah blah and you know, I'm just gonna cut him off now. We we we do know we do know his name. It's just not that Mariana: I know how to spell it, maybe, is that enough? I know how to spell it, E-N-E-S, is that enough? Derek: Yes, that's that's good. Yeah, yeah. We s so the so so so the a Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I'm good enough. Mariana: the NES. But also if there is for someone who's like, don't even know the name, you don't even know how to say it. I mean, I'm not. I'm not interested in talking to people like that, because that's not what it's about. Again, I don't care to know his name. I already know what he did. And I don't want to give him more attention. You want me to give him that much attention to know how to say his name? Bro, what are you doing on this podcast? Like watching this podcast? Derek: In fair and i i i in some fairness to to whoever this random faceless man that I've made up, you did try to give it is some bail and give him his i you you try to find the most clear view of what he might be doing, which was way more than I was gonna do. So I so I appreciate Daniel: that's true. Derek: that. But then maybe you can't go with the argument of I don't even wanna know his name. But also you can because we're gonna move on. D a lot to a lot to unpack there. Everyone's kinda gotten their first words in. I wanna let you get your first words in real quick. And you know, you can play off of what Terrell said, you can play off of w well you if you play off what Tyrell said, you're basically just gonna say fuck you a bunch of times. But if you can play off of what Mariana Daniel: Ha ha ha. Derek: said, the floor is yours, my friend. Daniel: Yeah, it was interesting because when I first heard, you know, the interview that Sophie Cunningham have done and then saw all the the the outrage and the outcries and such all over the the digital space, what what first came to my mind was this sounds like a solution in search for a problem, right? For all thing was we have to protect all the little girls out there, we have to make sure they're not being, you know, around biological men and all this going on too. And I was like, Okay, well Let me think about this because, you know, right now the WNBA is right now in the you know, the crosshairs. I'm like, is there a trans player currently trying to get into the WBA? Was there one that was maybe drafted and now they're trying to decide if they keep or not? Or is there maybe like a whole bunch of trans people already now in the WNBA? Or is there like an ongoing thing that's going on, like a discussion? I was like, No, no but no. So This was brought up but we this conversation has been going on for a long time. We've had it from as low as like Little League to like elementary school to middle school up to college and such. We've already had that out. States have already passed laws depending on what state you live in, in terms of who can do what in certain sports, depending on the age as well too. So it's kinda already been pretty fleshed out. So the fact that it kinda bubbles up again, she says something that's already been spoken and kind of, you know, ran through already

and then just takes off again and then now people are jumping on top of it. I'm like, Okay, well y'all are clearly trying to find something to you know, some type of problem that you have to conquer. 'cause not like trans people are out here running amok in the WNBA or really anywhere and and that and that for that fact. So that's why I was really confused about that whole thing is like why is it such a big thing when it's like we've already done this before? And then comes in this can't do freedom. so for him, as Mariana was saying, you know, he's saying that he's for the people, he's a social activist and such too. Which is kinda crazy because it's kinda like the people that he's talking against are like more of the ones that you probably would want to be protecting though, like the disenfranchised, the ones with without as many rights as others, but you're kinda going directly against them. So I'm like, what's really going on? But then I started backtracking again and saying, well, that's how he was initially when he decided I can't go back home because I may get, you know, killed by the regime over there 'cause I was speaking out against the you know, the justice over there. So stay here, America now, protection, you know, yeah. You're safe. But then since then, you know, he had he did h had that spat that happened between what was going on with the NBA in China and LeBron, saying that LeBron needs to speak up against China and all this and get out there. And then ever since then he's kinda gone down this whole magga road of taking that side for a lot of these type of political topics and such too. So I'm like, okay, that's what's going on. So basically he's been out of spotlight for quite a while. This was I guess a hot button and then it's it and it got some scene because of Sophie and he's like, let me jump in there and see if I can throw my hat in the ring. again causing a having a solution for a problem's not even there. same thing with Royce Wright. It's like, okay, well Royce, we don't hear about you since you left the league and then you went for office to try to actually get elected and then that didn't work out and here you are again. So you kinda can see like a pattern here of like, okay, well you're clearly doing something just to kinda get on the coattails and kinda get some notoriety from something that it's not really even a thing going on in terms of it being a major issue. So in that aspect I think for myself and I've seen a lot of players actually have the same sentiment of like this is very performative th like what's the whole point of you in declaring for the draft and all that other than just saying, Okay, well go on to like a talk show and just give your opinion. You going above and beyond saying, I'm gonna enter my name now, I think I could do this and then I'll be a dominant player and then yada yada yada One is like, okay, obviously we don't think you're really being serious. Two, we've seen this in the past that you

do love the headlines, you're trying to kind of get your name back out there. And then now three, it's like, okay, you're doing all this, but really what you're doing is kind of just bringing up to where people are now starting to deride and then talk down and get on actual trans people. It's like there's no need to actually bring them into this at all. Like that could have been a whole discussion where you actually aren't now having people, you know, going online and posting and giving their real opinions about things of like, okay, we've been there, done that. but the fact that they're using it for that aspect, I'm like, okay, yeah, that's that's just nasty, you know. Yes, we get it. The CBA, they have the that line on there. Let's talk about that versus actually trying to get on and create this narrative of there are these trans people that are preying on women, children and anything like that when that's proved to be false. Derek: Yeah, I wanna I wanna get back to the whole narrative that's kind of run amuck with trans people and this narrative that they're, you know, out to get your children and all that kind of stuff. This th all the things that are surrounding this problem of like we have to keep trans kids from playing sports, which is crazy. But first, before we get deeper into that, I just wanna say how much disdain I have for the line of logic that Royce White and in his Cand of Freedom exhibited here, which was really some like just high-key abus-ass logic where it's like, I have to protect you, but I have to protect you by beating you up. Like I have to protect you from these trans people, but the way I'm gonna protect you is by joining your league and beating up on you. That's like make that make sense. Like you think there is a problem. And your solution to the problem is I'm gonna force you to draft me so that I can show you that this is a problem, which there's just a whole other logic toll there. Like, they're not gonna draft you, bro. They don't have to draft you. You can declare all you want. That doesn't mean a GM is going to put you on their team. So, like, this idea that they have to be well, if they don't draft me, then they'll show that they're logically inconsistent. This is sports. They don't have to show any type of logical consistency. Whatsoever, and they never have, and they never will. Black quarterbacks used to not get drafted all the time. They didn't have to go out and be like, well, yeah he threw for 3,000 yards in college, he's the best college quarterback, but they didn't draft him, and that proves that they're logically inconsistent. No one cared. We had to go we had to drag them into drafting black quarterbacks kicking and streaming by being excellent. And that's neither here nor there, because that's not the topic. But I'm just saying. They don't have to draft you just because you feel like there's a line of dialogue in the CBA that technically allows you to be drafted. They don't. So that was already stupid. But even if you did, if you were able to force them, this idea that's like, well, I'm here to protect women, and I'm here to protect women by beating them up. But that's that's par for the course for Horse White. He likes to beat on women, allegedly. I'm not even sure if that's allegedly. I think that might be proven at this point. I should probably check my facts on that one before I get us all sued. So I'll be looking that up while I send it back to you guys. But I just want Inascannon Freedom and Worst White to know. Some very abus-ass logic that you use in your framing of trying to protect women. And for those people who were listening to us via audio, I put that in quotes because they weren't protecting women. They were trying to do what sometimes men do, which is make a situation that has absolutely nothing to fucking do with them about them. Daniel: What's also interesting though is is c when you when you do something like that, like what Ennis Cantor did and Royce White as well, you're kinda putting the onus on the other party to kind of do all the work though, right? Versus saying, Okay, way, what should be the actual rules to determine what is a woman? Let's go ahead and break it down. Because if you go by hormones, you go by genetics and all that It's been shown that there are women who have certain levels of hormones or certain types of genetic what they were born with. These are actually have been proven that these are actual cases. so go ahead and put it down there instead of saying, just draft me or fix it. It's like, okay, how how should we fix it then? Go ahead and break it down for what you in your mind what it is and let us actually, you know, pick apart your thoughts on it versus you picking apart what we have in our CBA. Why don't you try doing it yourself? But no, it's more just like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna get some of the, you know, my five minutes of fame or whatever, and then y'all can go and work it out and hopefully y'all figure it out or whatever. So I think it's lazy. I think again it's very clearly performative and it's where if you actually want to enact change. try to bring an actual solution to it versus just saying, I'm just gonna be a clown and then hopefully y'all can figure it out and appease me for what I'm looking for. Mariana: you Thespian Papi: Quick Derek: Yeah, Thespian Papi: side Derek: and Thespian Papi: note. Derek: before you get into the quick side note, Terrell, I just want to clean up that, you know, the the allegations against Force White are in fact allegations, but I will say that a judge ordered him to stay away from his child and the mother of his child for fifty fucking years. So you do with that information what you want. Terrell, your side note, please. Daniel: What? Derek: Yes, a judge ordered him Mariana: Yeah, I. Derek: to stay away from his from the mother of his child and his child. For fifty years. Five Mariana: Yeah, I found that when I researched it and I was like,

That's why I gave Ennis Cantor freedom a much more charitable. I did that on purpose, but that's why I did because I'm like, these are two different. They're very different, even though like it's not landing very different. They're very different. Now, granted, what you I agree with you, Derek. What I did was a large, large stretch, which I would argue is why I was like, you get one or the other. Either I get your name right or I'm charitable. You get you can't get both. Sorry. Derek: fail you. You've you've you've won me to your side. Only one. T, what was your side note? Thespian Papi: well, first of all, what I found really funny because Olivia Miles, who right now she's easily rookie of the year, first of all. and she out other than Asia Wilson, who is in my opinion, the most amazing WNBA player I've ever seen. And I've been watching WNBA since it started. other than her, Olivia Miles is one of literally one of the best players right now in the court as a rookie. And she already said She'll bust Innis Cannon's ass if she sees him. And I'm not lying, you can look it up. They Daniel: Okay. Thespian Papi: basically somebody asked her about it, and I'm sure the players are all getting tired of, you know, like talking about it. but I think somebody asked him about asked her about what he had been saying, and she was basically like, I don't give a damn. I'll bust his ass just like I bust anybody else's. So long story short, is she's like, I don't they can come on through with it. the other thing I will say, Royce White, he's got a real bad case of Brandon Tatum syndrome. he's he's that guy basically, but with a slightly higher profile with amongst conservative, alleged conservative circles. and I guess based on what you just said about the whole 50 year restraining order thing between his his I guess his ex and his child, he fits right in with that party. but yeah, the fact that I don't even think the the better players in the WNBA, and you know, it's interesting because Mariana was talking about, you know, that that skin tone makes, you know, that that makes a difference. And I've noticed that while a lot of the white players in the WNBA have been kind of ducking and dodging it, and there's that very specific handful of of young ladies that that are there. having a discussion with and that they're that are sort of stuck in it because they play for a team with a particular player, Sophie Cunningham, who made statements. but when you look around the rest of the league, most of the sisters in the league are like, hey, they come through here, they can get their ass busted. And be but if you've ever been around high-level female basketball players, here's the wild part. They I don't necessarily think they would welcome a male player. Obviously, this entire discourse is ridiculous. And what y'all have been saying about bringing the attention to themselves when the attention really needs to be on the WNBA and its ascension right now and the fact that it's doing things the last couple of years as a league that it hadn't done in the last 30 plus years. these guys are taken away from that shine at a point when the league is at its most popular. But at the same time, if you've ever been around high-level like female basketball players, they do not see themselves as female basketball players. They see themselves as ballers. They do not care. They will play anybody, anytime, anywhere. And I would not be shocked if a good handful of them in the league are like they can come he can they can come on through here if they want to. And if some team was to be dumb enough to draft them and put them on the floor. We're gonna try to bust they ass. It's that would that would be a completely different conversation. And it's probably a conversation that's probably been had in barbershops all over the country, but it's the fact that they're interjecting their politics into it, and that is what they're doing, to be very, very clear. One percent of one percent of the population. That wasn't bothering anybody and just trying to be comfortable in their own skin has become a wedge issue because people don't want to talk about a bunch of perverts that are running the country right now. But we ain't gonna go too far into that. But we know that that's why the trans issue is an issue right now. Because it's not an issue to trans people, other than the fact that when they go around on their day on a daily basis, they don't want people fucking with them. But the vast majority of of trans people are, you know, are not out here saying trans, you know, trans women are not saying, I'm gonna go join the WNBA for the most part. And and vice versa. Like you don't you don't see that. That's not something that is a huge issue that you don't hear about all the time. You only hear about it when the most disingenuous people to the community are making it an issue. So that they can take people's minds off of other things that are going on that are really, you know, big issues for the majority. So the whole thing is ridiculous. And it's like Royce White, in my opinion, should be ashamed of himself because he seems to be literally making it a joke, and he doesn't seem to have any level of seriousness about it. And in his canter, in my opinion, like Daniel was saying, once the whole LeBron and China thing, he sort of went off this sarcastic sort of, you know, like antagonistic like slope where he just, you know, he didn't say anything for the longest time since that happened. And then all of a sudden it was almost like he saw this wedge issue and he just had to chime in on it. And he's doing interviews with Bruce Pearl, who is absolutely no friend to women's sports at all whatsoever. I mean, he's honestly really not a friend to men's sports. To be honest with you, no matter what he's done in his coaching career. So the whole thing just stinks and it's disgusting. And part of me would love to see some form where the Olivia Miles and the

Asia Wilsons and the and the Brianna Stewart of the world get a chance to bust them dudes' ass on national TV somewhere, even if it ain't in a WNBA game. Because I'm telling you it could happen. Because dudes like that don't think that women could do. what they can do on that court and they would be sorely mistaken. Derek: Yeah, a lot of female reporters have pointed this out, especially when Bruce Pearl entered the conversation and said that we needed to protect, you know, women's sports. And what was kind of directed right back at him is Title Nine is under attack right now. The Heritage Foundation wants to basically do away with Title IX right now. Like, I know Bruce Pearl has worked in sports for a really long time, call up sports for a really long time. I think he knows the value of Title IX. I don't hear I've not heard Bruce Pearl say anything about Title IX. And let me tell you, it was my job to know if Bruce Pearl said anything about the attacks that are happening on Title IX. And instead he voted for the party that is trying to currently get rid of Title IX. So, like There are actual things that are hindering and putting in danger women's sports right now that these people are not talking about. You know, frankly, we probably should have an episode about it. We're not prepared to have that episode right now and just be real about it. But if you're gonna go through the whole rigmarole of saying, hey, we gotta protect women's sports, you should probably actually be about the business of protecting women's sports and not these false false flag. Narratives because now we can get into it. Daniel already said it, but we probably should say it again. This is definitely a solution in search of a problem. Because for unfortunately, for the most part, conservatives have won on this issue. There are so many pieces of legislation now that ban trans children from playing sports. And and let's take on that topic right now because When I was growing up, I was told that sports was about sportsmanship, it was about teamwork, it was about lessons in the community. And then, yeah, as we get into high school, we might ratchet that up a little bit. Yeah, as we get into college, we might ratchet that up a little bit. And then when we get into the pros, now it's all about that. There's no more sportsmanship. Although if someone steps out of the line, people will be real fast and be like, sportsmanship. But they only really do that when they kind of feel like it. They don't really apply that consistently. That's another topic for another day. The high school elementary middle school level is supposed to be about your friends and teamwork and coming together and community. But for some reason instead we've made it about this money making capitalistic approach to where it's like, well My kid needs to get a scholarship. And if this trans, this one trans kid is on the high school basketball team, how's my child gonna get a scholarship? And I'm here to tell you: if

your kid is good enough to play college sports, it does not matter if there is a trans kid on the high school basketball team. It either your kid is good enough to play the sport or they're not. And a lot of this is protectionism against people whose kids, quite frankly, are not good enough to be College athletes and they're mad about it, and so they're trying to use this as a scapegoat. this all started with Riley Gaines, who, if I will remind you, if Leah Thomas didn't exist, Riley Gaines would have been in the exact same placement that Riley Gaines was in. Because Riley Gaines tied for fifth. Leah Thomas tied for fifth. It's the same position. She was caught Mariana: you Derek: she's literally the only person in the race who was Besides the people above Leo Thomas. So like there are people Thespian Papi: Feel. Derek: there are people who could technically complain. She is like literally the one of the only people who can. Literally. And ever since then, we've been on this mission to keep trans kids from being able to participate in something that will help their self esteem, that will help the community. I'm sorry? Mariana: Yeah, but what was it before that? What was it before that? What was it before that? Affirmative action. Derek: Well, yes. Mariana: What was it before that? What was it before? If this trans kid is on my team, it was what? If this not white kid is on the team, then Thespian Papi: sure. Mariana: my white kid won't get it. It's honestly. Thespian Papi: The affirmative action that was actually more for white women than it was for anything, but okay. Mariana: Same with Daniel: Yeah. Mariana: this. What is this all boiling down to? Who gets to define womanhood? That's what it's boiling down to. Because when it was, I go back to Venus and Serena, what was it? They were too muscular. They were too tall. Their voices were too deep. They were too expressive. They weren't feminine enough. What femininity? Which one? It's about who gets to define it. And what is that connected to? Women's bodies being treated as public property. That's what it's about. Our bodies are public property. So a trans woman's body is also public property because she's trying to be a woman. But a trans body in general, if you are other, your body is public property. And that's how affirmative action like the body that applied to was also treated as public property. If we are other, we are a threat. It's because of what makes us different. We have the benefit. If I'm not white, I have the benefit because of affirmative action is going easier on me. If I'm a trans woman, I have the benefit because because my genetics make me stronger than you. Forget that there's actual cis women that have genetics that do make them. And I actually sent you all that. video during the week where I was like, here's an example of what I'm going to talk about. This is a pregnant woman showing off her dress in the video. And what are the comments? All the comments are everyone saying, how could this trans man be pregnant? She's not a trans woman be pregnant. She's not a trans woman. She's a cis gender woman. But because she's tall and she has a deep voice and she's more muscular and her build is more like it's different. She can't possibly be a woman. That is why Derek: It is Mariana: this is all alarming to me because I'm like, so you want to define what womanhood is and you want to start policing women out in public and saying, you don't look woman enough. You don't look feminine enough. So you're not allowed to be in this space. Derek: And we're not even we're not even good at it. Like, there's just been so many examples over the last four years since this issue has become even hot hotter, where people will be like, that's a that's a man. That's clearly a man. And and then it's a woman. Like, just straight up. Like Mariana: I would actually say that they are. Derek: not even like not even close. We're just so bad at it. Mariana: I would actually posit to say that that's the point. I would actually posit to say that that's the point though. The point is picking apart, picking someone even if they're not, let's say they're saying, you're, you're a trans woman. You're not, you're not a real woman. That's the point. The point is to make you say you are, you don't fit the box. So I'm going to make you feel like an outsider. And what is the language for right now? Trans. That's the language for right now. The language for it will change, but it will always be the same. That's the whole point. The point is to make someone that doesn't fit the box of femininity to feel less than because they don't fit it. I so much like it, I could go on, that's, that's what that's, that's, I would say that that's the whole point. The whole point is to point out anyone that doesn't fit and make them feel less than. Derek: You s you're nodding your head quite a bit. What what do you got? Daniel: So for me, the way I approach like a lot of topics too is I think the ideal is somewhere in the middle between the two extremes, right? So let's say like let's do real quick the two extremes. So stream on one side is is let's just say that Derek: here comes here comes Centrist Daniel doing Centrist things. Daniel: let me hear yeah, let me know you think. So here's Mariana: Yeah Daniel: one stream would be that, okay, well, hey, people are just people. It's a spectrum, it's fluid. So let's just merge it all together and then basically, you know, everybody compete wherever they want to compete and then kind of just let it fall away lies, type of thing, right? That's one side that we say, okay, maybe extreme. Other side is hey, I know what it is, I know what a man and a woman is, so I'm gonna put these rules in place. If you don't meet this exactly, then there's no way you can compete or be included in this group here, right? Also, as we had talked about in terms of genetics, in terms of how things are actually set up. A lot more nuanced than that, so

that's also an extreme too. So for me, I think maybe it's lies somewhere in the middle to where it's like, okay, well Yeah, I'm sure some people are gonna say we need to have some type of way to exclude certain people in terms of if we ac if maybe there actually are like a an actor that's saying, Okay, well you actually are trying to you actually aren't trans at all. You're just either trying to like in this counter just trying to get over on something or you're being disingenuous. There needs to be a way to be be able to exclude them in that aspect. So to me it's like there is no room right now to actually have the conversation, to actually have the okay, well, hey, this person here, they wanna compete there. Let's talk about it and have it as a case by case basis when in time for this type of situation. That it seems like that's that's not a a thing currently right now. Like I think in the past maybe used to be a thing, but now it's not a thing at all for for this individual, because everybody is unique as themselves. For this individual, let's see what it's about them and see what works best for them and for the team as well, or for where we're trying to do for that too. I think that's kind of lost when we have these type of setup, and I think that's also why it may have been a mistake for the WNBA to actually because it's actually the first year they ever actually ever had something in there of you have to be a woman to be in the league. Before that, they were like the NBA to where they don't mention gender at all. It's just that you have to be this age and go to school and da da da da da and that was it. There was no actual gender type of thing mentioned at all. And there still isn't anything for the NBA like that at all either. so the fact that they put that on there is like, okay, well now you basically you know you can't put the bull back in the gun, so now you put it out there, you put it on paper, so now people are gonna ask you or try to combat that. So that's why I was like, okay, it doesn't really maybe the reason why they did that is because like, okay, well, we can decide ourselves, but now because it's written down, it has to be we now need to have you legally state what you think is your stance on this versus how it's been probably since the inception of WBA it's like, okay, well, hey, yeah, if being a player can play and we think that they fall into the role of being a woman, then we can make that decision as it comes up. Because again, it's still a very small percentage of people that actually can make it to any professional sport in general. So don't like it's open to anybody to just come in and say, I'm now a WBA player. It's that that's not how it works. We've seen a many t if you Ever played against a girl in high school or in college or whatever, you can see that the skill level definitely jumps quite a bit, the same way it does for men. So it's not like any man could play in a WNBA or anything like that too. So but I think there's no really room right now for that actual conversation to happen per situation, per person. It's just more of I need you to have an answer for everything and put that rule in place. Which I think makes it very, very combative because now everybody's like, It has to be this way, it has to be that way, when it's like it needs to be somewhere in the middle for it to actually work and be fair, I think for everybody involved. Derek: The the crazy thing is, is that we were in the middle. The the rules that were in place were for the most part working as intended. A trans athlete, like to compete at the Olympics, a trans athlete who was transitioning from man to woman had to go through an intense amount of of therapy, of hormone therapy, to Daniel: Mm-hmm. Derek: even qualify to be in that division, which significantly hampered what sh w whatever advantages they might have had from their biology. which is proven, like you just I mean, look at Leah Thomas. Anyone who's actually studied what Leah Thomas's times were prior to transition to after transition, they are significantly slower, which makes sense because they're going through an intense medical procedure and trying to be one of the top at sw swimmers in the nation. And it's always just like everyone acts like these few examples that we have of trans athletes who are coming and having some success, but they act like they're Shaq. They they act like they're the most dominant athlete of all time. And it it's just it's never been the case in one of these scenarios. So it's it's like you said at the beginning, it's such a it was such a solution in search of a problem that now everything is of the extreme that you can't even have the actual conversations of, yeah, maybe there are some rules we want to have in place on a professional level or on a collegiate level that find the middle ground so that everyone can kind of compete within their same stratosphere, within their level. within their same biology because we can have that talk too about the bio the spectrum of biology that is in play and how that affects your ability. But even that is like we're kind of even self-selecting for that as well because it's like we don't we don't say that Wimby is at is at an advantage because he's seven six. That's biology. Not everyone is seven six. And I know those are kinda different, but it's it's also kind of the same. And we we kinda are picking and choosing and as Mariana said, that's kind of the point. But I don't think anyone Even trans people are against some rules and regulations to make sure that bad faith actors, if they were to ever arise, could be stamped out. But we're so past that point, and we're so past that point that we're going to persecute kids from playing elementary school soccer. And I'm just like, why? You're not gonna get a college scholarship off of elementary soccer. Let the trans kids have fun. Let them be kids. Mariana: Have you? Have Derek: We've all we're all Mariana: you

been? Derek: talking about how kids need to be kids. Let trans kids be kids. But we're too busy trying to create some national controversy at the elementary school, at the middle school level, where there is none because there's so few of them to begin with. They cause no problem because again, this is middle school and elementary school, but we just want to vilify these people. And it's terrible. And it needs to stop. Mariana: I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing. It's because I have you been to like football, like kids football games here, at least here in Texas. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Derek: I've I've attended one a time or two. Mariana: I wish that it was really the way you're saying it is. I truly do. one of the things I've always said, because my kids were involved, my oldest was now 18 and I can't believe that, but she started out in Little League, like Little Giants as a cheerleader and she was four. I would go there and watch parents fight. So like, I do think that it's that serious, unfortunately, for them. And I think that that's probably a larger conversation around the culture of sports. And probably that's feeding into this competitiveness and trying to grasp at straws to eliminate any perceived competition. Because it is unfortunately that serious for a lot of people who put their kids in these sports at a young age. Soccer, swimming, football, you name it. They will, they will literally fight over a little league game. I've seen it. I have seen it many times. Derek: Well that that also that also goes back to my first point, which is that we've kind of lost the the plot on amateur sports. I I I do get it to some degree on the high school level. I do get it obviously on the collegiate Daniel: Yeah. Derek: level, and then of course professional is professional. But we we've lost the plot in a lot of ways. You're right, that's kind of a different episode, but it also ties into this episode, which is we're treating things that are supposed to be about building character and you know, if you do show some promise. Hey, we'll get you some extra sessions on the side. Like, you know, Charlhoff's going through this right now. Thusby and Poppy knows what this is about. And he's not had to knock down any trans kids to to to make his his daughter s a successful athlete. Like it doesn't have to be this way. but as you said, even with the affirmative action example, when someone feels like someone else is getting something that they feel they need to do, they they want, they're gonna try to attack that and they're gonna try to make it seem like this whole whole stratosphere of people is getting this unfair advantage. We saw how basically the the the Asian population was weaponized against affirmative action to eventually knock that whole statute kind of down, which was funny because as Terrell said, the people who benefited most were white women. But and now we've seen that that's kind of backfired on Asian people to a certain extent because they're still not getting in. Now white people are getting in again. And so it's like Mariana: It's just an irony for me because... Derek: We we we we we see how the capitalism incentivizes people sometimes to attack each other when that's not the actual thing that needs to be attacked. As Daniel was saying, there is room for nuance and I know I make fun of Daniel for centrism, but he's right here. There's n there's news there's room for nuance and there's root n Daniel: Okay. Derek: there's room for creating standards, but we're not even having that discussion because we're too busy having silly season. Mariana: I heavily agree with Daniel too. It's accurate. I agree. Especially when he brought up adding the woman thing stipulation to the WNBA in a way, I would say maybe it was ambitious, but also you had a little bit of blinders on. You would think that it's common sense, but that's also assuming that everyone is functioning in the same mentality as you. It's not going to have the same impact. that your intentions have. And you would think that that would be like a dumb thing to say, like maybe you shouldn't have done that, but it's like the MBA doesn't have that stipulation. So you're kind of creating this like, where there's like, you're kind of starting some like fuel for a problem you don't want to have, unfortunately. And you wouldn't think that that's the case, but you have to be realistic. Derek: Well, to your point about the mis I'll let I t I'll let you get back in a second. To your point about the misogyny of all this, the NBA also doesn't have to worry about this because there is absolutely no discussion about women excuse me, biological excuse me. I won't say this correctly. There's no discussion about trans men in this at all. Like no one's scared of trans men polluting the NBA. That's just not something you hear about. And to your point earlier, there's probably a lot of misogyny, a lot of sexism boiled into why that's the case, why trans women are so under attack. And trans men are definitely under attack in general, but in terms of the sports conversation, you don't hear a lot about that at all. Mariana: they're not seen as a threat because biologically they're a woman so it's like hey I'm gonna beat you anyway I know trails Thespian Papi: Right. Yeah. Mariana: we don't need to say something Derek: And it seems like you don't want him to. no, you are Thespian Papi: Yeah. Well actually actually it was it was sort of spinning off of something that you had talked about earlier in regards to the whole like I'm gonna point you out because you don't look like what I think a woman should look like. The point you made about that, as soon as you said it, I was thinking back to the twenty twenty four Par Paris Olympics a couple of years ago. and Mariana: Gosh. Thespian Papi: I remember it so vividly, but there was an Algerian boxer, her name was Iman Imani Khalif, and there was a Taiwanese boxer who actually her situation didn't get nearly as much

shine, I think unfortunately, because I don't think she had kind of gone as far. But this this specifically this Algerian boxer, Imani Khalif, she basically long story short is she went into this particular fight during the Olympics and the The Italian fighter that she was going against, 46 seconds into Mariana: Of course it was an Italian. Thespian Papi: the fight, just quit. She just quit because she and it all stemmed back to, I think it about a year or so earlier, the IBF came up with some ridiculous, like vague testing that they supposedly did and claimed that these two particular boxers, but specifically Amani Khalif, had like supposedly some high level of testosterone. more than they were allowed to have. Mind you, there was no transparency to any of these tests, nothing. Literally, this woman just unfortunately did not and I will admit, if you go based off of what these idiotic trad wives that are all over social media right now, if you go based off of them and what their white husbands say that a woman is supposed to look like, this these women are very athletic. They are they are larger than the average woman and they are fighters. And It was that just what you were just talking about, Mariana, which is, well, you don't look like a woman. You don't look like what I think a woman should look like. Mind you, this is a woman that could probably beat your ass because she's a boxer. But we'll get out of that and just say the fact that you expect her to look like what you think a traditional woman should look like, and on top of that, be able to whoop somebody's ass to the extent that she can win a gold medal. Like, nah, bro, but this is going into Mariana: And it went that far because she weaponized what? Thespian Papi: even But even the mechanisms that they use to test the women in these sports is already biased against them because they're literally I mean, we Daniel: Stupid. Thespian Papi: can go into the IBF and we can go into the Olympic Committee and all the BS that they do behind the scenes that everybody knows has been crooked and corrupt for decades. I mean, there are countries getting the Olympics. That don't even have facilities for the Olympics until the last second. You can't you couldn't drink the water in Brazil a while back when they had the Olympics. I mean, it was it w in France. It was fuck crazy. So it's like there's so much corruption there. And then these are the same people. Mind you, the vast majority of them are men. And these are the same people that are saying, Well, you have to look a certain way, and I'm gonna do this vague test on you, and I'm gonna say that you failed this test when the test had no credibility at all whatsoever, and we're gonna make this huge debacle all on on the national stage. This is all leading right back to what Mariana just said, which is I need you to look I I'm I'm Joe White guy, I'm Joe random dude, and I'm not gonna Put it all on white dudes, because we just got finished talking about Royce Wright and Royce Wright white and in his canner freedom, and they're men of color. And it's this idea that you've got this group of dudes that just feel like they have to have so much control over what a woman is and what a woman should look like and what a female athlete should look like when half of them don't even respect women in athletics. So it it's just there's zero credibility from any of these dudes. And it goes, and it's not just on their level, it's not just these random dudes on the internet and these former NBA players on the internet that want to say stuff that is ignorant. It's it's built into the system, it's built into everything that these athletes do. And it's sad because these are entities that should be protecting them. And I go Mariana: Mm-hmm. Thespian Papi: back to my my first take, which is I don't even like saying first take. I go back to my initial take, which is all of these organizations should be protecting, advocating for, and being allies for all of these people. All of these people. And it was doomed from the start because these organizations don't even give a shit about women in the sport. And now you have trans athletes that. And Derek was talking about it earlier. There are guidelines, and I think Daniel was saying there are guidelines, there are testing, there's all this process that if a trans athlete really, really wants to pursue this dream, there are all these processes that they can go through, as invasive as it is, to put themselves in a position where you can say chemically, medically, whatever you want to say, you know what? You don't have any specific advantage. So, yes, you can compete. Which I guess is probably what the pie in the sky eventual, you know, goal would be for a lot of these athletes. But when the systems that are making these decisions and doing these things are already biased against them, what the you know what I'm saying? Like, come on, man. It's the whole thing is just it's whack, you know, because Mariana: Yep. Yep. Derek: If you're Thespian Papi: again, I go back to these are people that just want to live in their own skin and be comfortable. And hey, guess what? They might actually want to play a sport. And not necessarily because they feel like they want to physically beat up on anybody, they just want to belong. And that's crazy to me. Mariana: But you know what really bothers me and I keep coming back to in my mind is that all over the world, would say, like especially here in the United States, I feel like sports has been an industry where in which young kids of color feel like that's the only way I'm gonna get out. That's the only way I'm going to do anything is using this physicality that I have. And they have without a doubt, the NBA benefited from that. So this is kind of a thing that you created yourself. And now you have it to me, it goes back to like affirmative action, where it's like, you create this, this kind of like, pathway of equity, that turns into

exploitation. And then you have these people of privilege that only see the riches of that exploitation and go, I want me a piece of that, actually, you're in my way now. So it's like, Okay, so now you're going to block one of their only paths that they have that you have said that they have. They have other paths. But, in my mind that like the way I see it, this is this is perpetuated from a very young age. A lot of these kids are groomed to believe I have two paths to get out to get to gain success. And one of them is sports. So to me, that's why I'm like, Okay, so do you want them in sports? Do you only want them for a certain amount? Is it only okay if it like entertains you and then when you start to feel like it's encroaching on your bag, then it's not okay? Is that where we're at now? Because that's the way I'm perceiving it. Daniel: And what's a little interesting though when we kinda talk more about just just at the pro level, right, for professional leagues and everything, is this kind of seemed like one of those situations to where actually capitalism kinda would have worked itself out and kinda taken care of it, which is why you actually probably wouldn't even need the bylaws to say only women can be in this league or Mariana: huh. Daniel: even have in this canter or if I do what they're doing. It's like the WBA that the whole brand thing is for women playing basketball, right? So They're not gonna just let like formal former male athletes come and then invade their league and now nothing about men on the teams, like why would they that's against their brand that they will lose money, that's not what they're trying to promote. So Mariana: Mm-hmm. Daniel: you don't have to strong arm say, make sure that no men get into the league. It's like, well of course they're gonna do that. That's their whole thing, that's their whole stick, is like we're bask professional basketball, but for women. And if we decide what we think are women, we're gonna have them in the league. We're not gonna have just random men coming to the league. So why would that even be a concern that we're just gonna just open the floodgates? 'Cause again, it's not a little league team. It's not like some team that's like provided to you by like your the local Y. It's an actual business itself. So the business is we want to try to promote women and basketball at the same time. So it's like, okay, if that's one thing. As you go further down the run, right? So from pros to college to again like your local middle school and stuff like that, that needs more of the discussion, more of the nuance, because like, okay, well yeah, maybe for the children, because at that point when you're like what ten, nine, eight or whatever, they're pretty close in terms of athletic ability at all. It doesn't really matter girl or boy. So maybe now instead of having the boys and girls team, we'll have just one team all together and they play against other. There's stuff that that that's gonna work at a lower level to say, Okay, well this makes sure everybody still can Play the sports, improve, have fun. And you don't have to worry about having a boy on the girls team or girl on the boys team because we have just a mixed gender team anyways. And then as you move up, you can have more of those in-depth discussions because as you get to high school or college, they have more money to afford if you want to do all the testing and all that. That's what y'all want to do. Just leave it for that if you want to get that in depth into it. But again, the fact that you're kind of trying to find a problem and say just I need to cross the board, just put these things in stone, is like The pros don't need it because that's their whole business model. I think they can take care of themselves. The kids don't need it because they keep they're just kids. No one's hit puberty yet, so it's pretty close anyways. Just let them be together and do their thing. And then in that little in-between right there, for again, the small, small population that we have of the trans kids that want to play these sports, we can then have more of a discussion about okay, what works best for everybody to make sure that we are being inclusive, but then also respectful of other people as well, and then focus your efforts there. I think that's getting a lot like that small little part. We can spend a lot more time and energy and funding there and pretty much be golden, but we're sp spending on basically everything all at once. And it's like, okay, well nothing's getting done. Nothing's actually improving. It's more like either someone gets hurt. One group gets hurt quite a bit or one group feel like I'm not being hurt. And that's basically the end of it. It's like it's two extremes to where it's like it doesn't have to be that way. Stop trying to have like a blanket over everything when it's like y'all it's these are just different rungs of everything. We have to treat them separately as such. Derek: Yeah, well that would to to do what you just said, Daniel, that would be actually we would need to actually care about the problem or the lack of not problem that we could just easily solve instead of instead of just blanketly Daniel: That is true. Derek: trying to demonize a whole set of people, you know, we could what's funny is as much as I always make fun of capitalism, as much as I make fun of you, like it's proven time and time again on this show that if we were to actually just let capitalism happen unfettered. Things would kind of mostly be okay. But then we get into all this foolish silly season and this cronyism and you know all the stuff that gets in the way that has become modern politics and we don't get capitalism unfettered and we can't work these things out amongst ourselves. Because what you just suggested, I have not met a single trans person who is against that. Mariana: Yeah. Derek: And they they talk and if you listen to them, they talk quite a bit about this.

They're like, hey, yeah, we can understand that this can be a nuanced discussion. They want to have the discussion. No one wants to actually have it with them. They just want to yell at them and tell them that they can't play sports. That's what they want Daniel: Yep. Derek: to do. I I will Mariana: I'm gonna go get my charger. Derek: say I will say if you're playing Tarot Huff Bingo at home, he tr ascribed a point to both me and Daniel because he couldn't remember which one of us said it. So if you had that if you have that on your bingo card, I Daniel: That he did. Derek: only think we have two Terrell Huff X's today, but you know, I will say that the difference between me and Terrell Huff is that Mariana asked an open ended question during my rant and it froze me because I started thinking about the question. Terrell rifled right on through that bad boy. He did not stop a second to deal with Mariana's open ended question. So I I thought that was Daniel: Hold that point. Derek: Yeah, yeah. I thought that was funny. When she when she when she posed a question to me in the middle of my rant, I was like, What? Huh? Huh? I was like a deer in the headlights like, Wait, what? I I did I something to consider? Terra House like nothing to consider. Ramble right on through Alright. So as we get close to the the end of our episode here, guys, anything that you guys wanna say in closing? Anything you feel like we've underdiscussed that we need to discuss a little more? I will say before I turn it over back to you guys, that I do wanna give the WNBA some some props on this because the WNBA always kinda leads the way on progressive social issues and they've they continue to even though You know, y'all made some valid points about how they could have maybe avoided this. You know, Sophie Cunningham kind of put them in a in a bad position. But since getting this question these questions, specifically, I I remember Cheryl Reeve wearing a trans kids belong shirt saying that the WNBH needs to still be about inclusion. for the most part, players who have been asked about this issue have echoed what we've said, which is hey, we need to make a space for trans kids to be welcomed. They need to be welcomed in sports. There's no reason to be as divisive as we as we as some have been on this issue. So I wanted to point out Cheryl Reeve for that, but also the WNBA in general. not falling for the bait as well, which I think was important to not let Royce White and then his can of freedom kind of frame the issue as, they have to address this. They there's some things that they do have to address and clarify and we'll have to figure out, but they should be able to do it on their terms. They shouldn't have to do it like Daniel: I should have been suppressing. Derek: there's some gun being held in their hand that that worse wife has to be drafted in the WNBA in March. I think it's March, April. I don't remember when the WNBA drafted. I'm so sorry. But it is in one of those months. so any last thoughts, any discussions that you feel like we missed here on this topic? This is a very important topic. I wanna make sure we hit everything that everyone wants to talk about. Daniel: Also I think it may the reason why this may be also be a bigger topic now than it was in the past is because this is the first time we had in history to where now women actually are potentially making millions of dollars playing basketball. Where that hadn't really been the case. They've been the butt of a joke quite a bit about, you know, you don't barely get paid anything, you don't make any money in a WNBA. And then this year when they sign that new C B A, it's like actually now someone may actually have for their salary one to two million dollars. They're actually making real, real, real money. They b they making money before, but now it's like, hey, you're in a whole other bracket strategy for a type thing now. Derek: fur the first eight picks, I wanna say, it made more money will make more money in their first year than Caitlin Clark will make in the her entire life of her contract. That's how that's how much it it it went up after this last CPA. Mariana: And don't you think that's interesting? Daniel: So so I Mariana: Daniel, don't you think that's, I mean, all of you, don't you think that's interesting that right when that happens, suddenly there's this conversation of, but what is a woman actually? Now, suddenly I'm feeling philosophical. What makes woman like interesting? Daniel: Yeah. Mariana: Suddenly now you want to ask these deep questions. Daniel: Now there's all this popularity, all the eyes on the WNBA. Now it's people trying following more WMB players than ever before. They're getting the brand deals, they're getting all the money. Whereas before it was like, the men make all the money and the woman women fall behind them, and then some women play basketball over here. No one cares about them now. Now a lot of people care about a lot of different things. That doesn't have to do with basketball really at all. but it's kind of I think the fact that we have now a lot of women, young women, a lot of women of color as well, potentially making quite a bit of money. Now a lot of eyes, a lot of politics are kind of zoned in on that when before it's like, hey, this has never been issued before. So I thought it was kind Thespian Papi: No. Daniel: interesting that this is now popping up now when actually they are about to blossom and start making some real, real money on and off the court. Thespian Papi: Listen, listen. Talk about endorsements and everything. My son is gonna play basketball in his league in Asia in pink Asia Wilson sneakers. Cause them joints is dope. All right. Daniel: For sure. Thespian Papi: So it's it's going to a place right now, specifically the WNBA is going to a place right now. I don't I don't think this is a there's not gonna be a regression here. This this situation will will pass. And hopefully will not be any sort of wedge issue for anybody after a while. But just to be clear, since the the WNBA is kind of the the middle of this conversation, it's about to be really amazing things going on in that league. And I'm looking forward to it. I only wish the I only wish the well, they're the aces now, but I only wish the stars were still here. Because yeah, it that that league is going places right now and it's pretty amazing. And I mean, the fact that They're so involved in All Star Weekend and all the the the WNBA players are involved in All-Star Weekend with the NBA players. I mean, did anybody see the three point contest? it wasn't this past, I think it was the season before last it might have been, but the three point contest with Sabrina Ionescu and and Steph Curry. Like they did Derek: Yeah. Daniel: yeah. Mm-hmm. Thespian Papi: that thing. Like that was crazy. These are the things that I wish we were talking about. You know what I'm saying? And it's like it, you know, I just I hate that that. you know, this is bec you know, the WNBA and what's going on in this renaissance that they're having right now. I just hate the fact that it's it's, you know, sort of been hijacked by something that definitely needs to be discussed, but I don't think that it needs to be the wedge issue that it's being right now, in regards to to the trans community and it and it sucks. Derek: Well to to Daniel and to Mariana's point that, you know, the WNBA is l quite literally the most progressive professional sports league that we have, probably on the planet, definitely at least in the country. And so it's no surprise that they keep getting attacks from that flank of the political aisle. We see what Clay Travis does every day. We see what our not friend Jason Whitlock says every day about the WNBA Thespian Papi: Fuck Jason Wheellock. Derek: as it's Mariana: Hahaha! Derek: That is the that is that is the show motto. if you're new to us, that is pretty much the show motto. fuck Jason Woodlock. but anyway, like Daniel and Mariana pointed out, it is not a coincidence that these unsubstantiated, unnecessary attacks are continuing to form against the WNBA as you know ESPN realizes that hey, women have TVs too. We should program women's sports. Daniel: Ha ha ha. Derek: so Daniel: Yeah. Derek: anything anything else before we close on out here? Think everyone's good. All right. Well, this has been another episode of Speaking for Sport. Terrell Huff. Hit him with the outro. Baby. Thespian Papi: Speaking for sport because somebody has to.