Full Transcript for The Trinity is Even WEIRDER Than You Thought | Karen Kilby

00:03:49.990 the time, as a as a picture, as a 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:52.470 metaphor, as a some way of describing 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:54.949 God at the time rather than a way of 00:03:54.959 --> 00:03:57.350 just accounting for the way we feel, 00:03:57.360 --> 00:03:59.670 accounting for the way we're behaving. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.149 We know the Holy Spirit's doing things 00:04:02.159 --> 00:04:04.710 in our lives. We know we feel these ways 00:04:04.720 --> 00:04:07.670 about Jesus. We know that Jesus and and 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.309 God, they have a very specific kind of 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:11.910 relationship and just we're just trying 00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:14.470 to get it to the tongue. They weren't 00:04:14.480 --> 00:04:16.870 just, you know, getting the logic paper 00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:20.229 out and trying to figure out, okay, how 00:04:20.239 --> 00:04:23.030 many go how many god persons are there 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:24.710 and what's their relation? They were 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:26.629 trying to account for things they were 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:28.950 already doing for beliefs they were 00:04:28.960 --> 00:04:31.270 already practicing and trying to 00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:35.430 discover an orthodoxy that would explain 00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:37.670 who they were, what they believed, what 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.390 they were doing rather than to create 00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:44.070 the belief, create the dogma, create the 00:04:44.080 --> 00:04:46.070 articles of faith. And this is something 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:47.749 we get into when we discuss what is the 00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.390 point of trinitarianism anyway. What 00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:52.870 does it give in Christianity? P perhaps 00:04:52.880 --> 00:04:54.469 it's a more accurate picture of the 00:04:54.479 --> 00:04:56.950 divine but for the everyday believer 00:04:56.960 --> 00:04:58.550 what are they actually getting out of it 00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:00.469 for instance the average Christian will 00:05:00.479 --> 00:05:02.629 consider with Jesus with the son a 00:05:02.639 --> 00:05:04.710 certain closeness that they might not 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:06.710 with the father there is a certain 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:09.189 intimacy there whereas with the holy 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:11.909 spirit one may feel this thing inhabits 00:05:11.919 --> 00:05:13.670 you in a way that you wouldn't think of 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.590 the son or the father and then with the 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.270 father you consider it in more the 00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:20.230 grandiose sense of the maker the creator 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:22.550 these are all I mean I I want to say 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:24.390 persons or attributes or some synonym, 00:05:24.400 --> 00:05:26.469 but I fear the heresy clause falling 00:05:26.479 --> 00:05:28.550 upon my head. But these are all three 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:30.950 prongs of [laughter] one. 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:33.510 >> That was the worst heresy of all. Bron 00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:35.029 >> prism. Prongism. 00:05:35.039 --> 00:05:38.790 >> Prongism. Prongism. [laughter] 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:40.629 >> I unfortunately have to resign my 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:42.230 position of Solomon and Smith for 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:43.029 prongism. 00:05:43.039 --> 00:05:44.870 >> You still listen to still listening to 00:05:44.880 --> 00:05:46.790 Solomon and Smith after they came out as 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:48.469 prongists? 00:05:48.479 --> 00:05:53.038 >> No. Prongists. The modalities 00:05:53.048 --> 00:05:54.870 [laughter] 00:05:54.880 --> 00:05:56.790 is there an analog between the mystery 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.510 of the trinity and the mystery of all of 00:05:59.520 --> 00:06:01.990 this stuff experience. Have you seen all 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.670 of this? Like there's all these 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:05.990 experience there's all this sense data 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.550 especially the mystery of selfhood the 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.430 mystery of other selves other souls 00:06:11.440 --> 00:06:14.390 other persons. What's the relationship 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:16.150 between that kind of mystery and the 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:18.950 mystery that we have towards God persons 00:06:18.960 --> 00:06:23.110 on the higher plane? And why do we need 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.150 uh Jesus to be the same guy as God? Why 00:06:26.160 --> 00:06:27.909 do why is that necessary? What's wrong 00:06:27.919 --> 00:06:30.309 with aranism? What can't we get with 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:33.830 aranism? You know, it gives you so much. 00:06:33.840 --> 00:06:35.430 >> Nothing wrong with it. 00:06:35.440 --> 00:06:36.950 >> Nothing [laughter] 00:06:36.960 --> 00:06:38.550 wrong with I don't to answer your 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:40.629 question. It's It's actually, 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.110 >> you know, I I was I was with him when he 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:45.670 confessed to Aryanism, but that prongism 00:06:45.680 --> 00:06:46.309 I just can't. 00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:48.309 >> Prongism, it's too far. 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:52.629 >> What do we miss? What do you miss with 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:55.990 uh Jesus being super ultimate human, 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.150 firstborn of all worlds, but not quite 00:06:58.160 --> 00:06:58.950 God himself? 00:06:58.960 --> 00:07:00.710 >> So, here's a question for you. Can you 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.150 plan a town based on the Trinity? Does 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.469 the Trinity have sufficient information 00:07:06.479 --> 00:07:08.150 to tell you where all the lamp post 00:07:08.160 --> 00:07:10.390 should go and the shops and the 00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:14.914 residential district? One man says yes. 00:07:14.924 --> 00:07:16.390 [laughter] 00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:18.469 Please like this video, subscribe to the 00:07:18.479 --> 00:07:21.909 channel if you're not already. Um, and 00:07:21.919 -->

00:07:23.670 if you'd really like to support us, we 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.070 also have a Patreon. There is a link 00:07:26.080 --> 00:07:28.390 down below. We're hugely grateful for 00:07:28.400 --> 00:07:30.309 all the support we get over there. you 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.510 gain access to some elite exclusive 00:07:33.520 --> 00:07:36.710 content and video chats with us. Be 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:37.909 lovely to see you there. 00:07:37.919 --> 00:07:40.790 >> I advise that you comment your favorite 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:44.870 heresy below. Are you a promised? If so, 00:07:44.880 --> 00:07:47.665 please please leave the channel. Um, 00:07:47.675 --> 00:07:49.589 [laughter] but 00:07:49.599 --> 00:07:53.830 >> 1,000 subscribers just go immediately. 00:07:53.840 --> 00:07:56.230 We've alienated the promis. We made a 00:07:56.240 --> 00:07:58.390 safe space for promists and then 00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:00.629 audience capture happened and we became 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.270 overly promised and had to retract. 00:08:03.280 --> 00:08:04.950 >> Look, all you prongish out here, you're 00:08:04.960 --> 00:08:06.150 the real ones. You're the real 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:08.950 believers. Other a thousand with zero 00:08:08.960 --> 00:08:12.555 zero subscribers. We've lost them all. 00:08:12.565 --> 00:08:14.150 [laughter] 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.189 >> Your favorite or least favorite prong is 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.589 >> prong. 00:08:19.599 --> 00:08:21.430 I had all sorts of interesting thoughts 00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:23.670 about what the accent was going to be 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:25.350 because your biography it's born in 00:08:25.360 --> 00:08:28.950 England. Uh grew up in Cincinnati. Uh 00:08:28.960 --> 00:08:31.029 has lived here for quite a while. Not 00:08:31.039 --> 00:08:33.269 Cincinnati. Sorry. Names beginning with 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:35.350 C. Connecticut. That's the one. Forgive 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:36.149 me. 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.310 >> Uh yeah, 00:08:38.320 --> 00:08:41.430 >> it's a it's a it's definitely a confused 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:42.949 accent. It started off American, then 00:08:42.959 --> 00:08:44.630 I've been living in Britain so long that 00:08:44.640 --> 00:08:46.389 it's doesn't sound American to 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:48.710 Americans, but it doesn't quite sound 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:51.110 proper to British people either. So, 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:52.949 >> yeah, it's it's uh thoroughly 00:08:52.959 --> 00:08:55.190 transatlantic. Like, not even not even a 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.790 little bit like that's right in the 00:08:56.800 --> 00:08:59.750 middle in one of those Atlantic islands. 00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:02.630 >> Tristan speak. That's a Tristan Dakuna 00:09:02.640 --> 00:09:06.630 accent or or indeed Hollywood 19 uh 00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:08.870 1920s when all the American accents were 00:09:08.880 --> 00:09:11.509 taught by British accent coaches. Well, 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.190 um, yeah, it's it's something I don't 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.630 have much control over. There's a few 00:09:14.640 --> 00:09:16.630 words I can control, but in general, I 00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:18.150 can't control my accent. 00:09:18.160 --> 00:09:20.230 >> I had like a sort of, you know, when I 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:23.910 was a child, I was very very coded 00:09:23.920 --> 00:09:25.910 northern English. You heard it within a 00:09:25.920 --> 00:09:29.990 syllable and in um, and in university 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:33.590 especially tried to sort of uh, ju just 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.070 for comprehension's sake temper some of 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.350 that stuff. A classic one is that uh in 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.990 in the north use you often say nothing 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.470 with just not but you don't pronounce 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.949 the t you just do a glottle stop. So 00:09:46.959 --> 00:09:49.190 it's not and they would just hear that 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.350 as like no or what are you trying to 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:53.509 say? You're in Durham at the moment. 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:54.150 >> I am 00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:55.110 >> correct. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.509 >> Have you lived there for quite a while? 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.990 >> Yeah about 12 years. When we when we 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:02.550 first moved here, we we brought my 00:10:02.560 --> 00:10:04.790 teenage son who was in a kind of grumpy 00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:07.350 stage and we wandered around and he 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.190 said, "Well, if you took away the 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:10.949 cathedral and the castle and the river 00:10:10.959 --> 00:10:12.310 and the forest, it would be just like 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.670 Granthm." Which was [laughter] 00:10:15.680 --> 00:10:17.670 took away 00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:20.282 the roads and the buildings and 00:10:20.292 --> 00:10:21.750 [laughter] the people. It would be like 00:10:21.760 --> 00:10:24.949 an empty field. True. 00:10:24.959 --> 00:10:26.870 But anyways, no, it's the the the river 00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:28.790 and the forests are are really nice as 00:10:28.800 --> 00:10:31.190 well as the cathedral. I I it's I enjoy 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:34.949 living here. Um it's a walkable town. Um 00:10:34.959 --> 00:10:37.269 and Newcastle's nearby. London's an easy 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:39.350 train ride, so it's good. People are 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.030 very friendly. 00:10:41.040 --> 00:10:43.750 >> Yeah, I I think my father's family are 00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:45.670 Durham. I think the the further the 00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:49.190 further back ones. Yeah. So that vague 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:50.630 It's a kind part of the country I know 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:52.230 almost nothing about actually. 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.150 Northeast. It's just a few times step 00:10:54.160 --> 00:10:55.350 foot in it. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:57.430 >> Yeah. I

forget how much of it there is 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.150 because I'm from Leeds and I feel like 00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:01.430 don't really get more northern than 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:01.990 that. 00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:02.389 >> Yeah. 00:11:02.399 --> 00:11:03.509 >> Um 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.190 >> but that's practically the Midlands from 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:06.230 here. So yeah. 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:08.310 >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And then you meet 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:10.470 the the super northerners in that madeup 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:11.910 country up there and like 00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:12.389 >> Yeah. 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.670 >> What's going on there? Yeah. [laughter] 00:11:15.680 --> 00:11:17.990 What kind of mathematics were you doing 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:19.590 when you were when you did your 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.790 mathematics life stage, Karen? Was it 00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:24.630 like number theory? What was what was 00:11:24.640 --> 00:11:26.470 it? What field? 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:28.550 >> Yeah, I hadn't got I I was headed 00:11:28.560 --> 00:11:31.350 towards pure mathematics and I hadn't 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:33.350 really got to a specialization though. I 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:36.550 had a I had a couple of summers where I 00:11:36.560 --> 00:11:39.269 had an internship at Bell Labs which was 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.310 kind of like the Google of its day. Um 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:43.829 and they had a program for women and 00:11:43.839 --> 00:11:46.550 minorities. So I was working with with a 00:11:46.560 --> 00:11:47.829 mathematician there but I don't think 00:11:47.839 --> 00:11:49.430 I'd have he did coding theory but I 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:51.509 don't think I'd have gone into that. So 00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:53.829 um my husband is still a mathematician 00:11:53.839 --> 00:11:56.870 so I hear about 00:11:56.880 --> 00:11:59.430 um geometry and algebraic topology these 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:00.230 days. 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.750 >> I like the topologists. I I I I've got 00:12:03.760 --> 00:12:06.069 very good experiences with topologists. 00:12:06.079 --> 00:12:07.750 I don't know what topology does to them 00:12:07.760 --> 00:12:09.350 but I uh yeah 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:11.670 >> really good at undoing their laces. How 00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:15.590 have you managed that? [laughter] 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.790 >> Great. I will I will jump into our um 00:12:18.800 --> 00:12:20.870 poetic epigraph. Thank you once again 00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:23.269 for making time for us. All I knew, 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:26.949 glowing in cognissance, snow stew, was a 00:12:26.959 --> 00:12:29.670 window onto a weatherbeaten wall, etched 00:12:29.680 --> 00:12:33.190 with wilting wisteria and winter veetch, 00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:35.670 evolving into a planet without knowledge 00:12:35.680 --> 00:12:39.190 or anyone to know it. Yet still somehow 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:42.230 the naked something of knowing spun out 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.790 in silver silk, Solomon's seals, chory, 00:12:44.800 --> 00:12:47.430 and Jerusalem sage, between chestnuts 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.710 and sequoas, and gliding like a crow of 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.990 light from an imagined star over a field 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.430 of white tar and unplanted hay, feasting 00:12:57.440 --> 00:12:59.910 on worms of numbers, though today there 00:12:59.920 --> 00:13:02.870 is nothing to count. God existed too 00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:05.269 much to leave anything to existence, 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:08.389 even a single accidental touch. An 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.710 infinite person to person cannot create 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.670 anyone but a parody of himself. The only 00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:15.990 way to manifest the universe is by 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.230 vowing it will never exist. There is no 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.310 experience, no experiencer but 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.590 experiencing a worm wriggling through a 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.629 flower for an artificial corpse to 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:28.949 devour. 00:13:28.959 --> 00:13:30.870 So, this is going to be a pretty broad 00:13:30.880 --> 00:13:33.430 ranging conversation on a number of 00:13:33.440 --> 00:13:36.069 different topics. Uh, generally the the 00:13:36.079 --> 00:13:39.350 trinity, the identity or identities of 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:42.790 God, the knowability of God. Um before 00:13:42.800 --> 00:13:44.790 we get into that Karen, I'd be curious 00:13:44.800 --> 00:13:48.710 to um just learn how you ended up in 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:50.550 this in this line in the philosophy of 00:13:50.560 --> 00:13:53.509 religion in theology and in particular 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:56.629 the sort of niche of systematic theology 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.430 that you are in. Well, if I start with a 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.590 story from when I was 14 and I was in a 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.430 confirmation class led by a maybe not 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.710 very pedagogically skillful nun who and 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:11.590 and the kind of class clown asked at 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.310 some point, but why should we believe 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.829 it's true? And the nun said, "Faith is a 00:14:17.839 --> 00:14:20.710 gift and if you don't nurture it, you 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.829 lose it." Which is an interesting reply 00:14:23.839 --> 00:14:26.870 to his question. and and in it I don't 00:14:26.880 --> 00:14:28.949 know what she meant but what I heard was 00:14:28.959 --> 00:14:30.470 ask questions like that and you'll end 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:31.990 up in hell because you'll lose your 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.030 faith and then you're stuck. So from the 00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:38.069 age of 14 onward I had this sense of a 00:14:38.079 --> 00:14:40.069 terrible conflict between the life of 00:14:40.079 --> 00:14:42.790 the mind and the

life of faith that that 00:14:42.800 --> 00:14:44.629 that you weren't allowed to ask 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:46.470 questions or you'd be in trouble. So 00:14:46.480 --> 00:14:48.870 when I was an undergraduate, 00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:51.670 I was um studying in America where you 00:14:51.680 --> 00:14:53.990 have uh 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.750 where you can do quite a lot of 00:14:55.760 --> 00:14:57.430 dabbling, do do a lot of different 00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:59.189 things. And I thought I might want to 00:14:59.199 --> 00:15:00.870 study philosophy, but unfortunately the 00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.230 philosophy after a certain point I 00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:03.750 dabbled in the wrong kind of philosophy, 00:15:03.760 --> 00:15:06.710 which was very deadening. And then I I 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:08.710 wandered into a bit of theology. And it 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:11.110 was it was the relief to that 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:13.030 14-year-old message I'd heard because I 00:15:13.040 --> 00:15:16.870 I found so, you know, I was a my faith 00:15:16.880 --> 00:15:19.590 mattered to me somehow, but I was 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.910 naturally inquiring person. And I found 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:24.230 it immense relief to find there were 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.590 people who'd asked far more questions 00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.269 than I'd ever thought to without 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.230 stepping outside, abandoning, destroying 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.389 their faith. So, 00:15:32.399 --> 00:15:35.030 so I think the theology probably spoke 00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:37.910 to the bit of me that could have studied 00:15:37.920 --> 00:15:39.269 philosophy but didn't find the right 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:41.509 philosophy to study as an undergraduate. 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:44.710 I made one last chance to try 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:47.189 when I had a year um studying in 00:15:47.199 --> 00:15:49.430 Britain. I did philosophy of religion 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:51.910 and again I was unlucky and and hit 00:15:51.920 --> 00:15:54.710 teachers who who weren't the right type 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.430 for me and who who had a kind of 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.069 ahistorical 00:16:00.079 --> 00:16:03.269 thin form of philosophical study. 00:16:03.279 --> 00:16:05.430 >> Was it very analytic? I'm I'm curious 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:07.030 what what these kinds of philosophers 00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:07.430 were. 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.030 >> Well, okay. So, I guess I can name 00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:11.509 names. Um, so the two people who taught 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:14.710 me that year were Don Cupid and Brian 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.509 Hethweight. And Don Cupid at the time 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:21.430 was very well known uh as a kind of um 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.990 non-realist philosopher of religion. He 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:25.670 was making TV programs. Lots of people 00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:27.430 had heard of him and somehow I

just 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:28.790 wasn't drawn towards his kind of 00:16:28.800 --> 00:16:30.870 non-realism. And that although some of 00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:32.870 my friends of my current generation did 00:16:32.880 --> 00:16:34.710 find him wonderful. Um and then Brian 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:37.749 Hebles it was a bit analytic and so when 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:39.590 Don Cubert wrote a book called the sea 00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.870 of faith about which is a quote from a 00:16:42.880 --> 00:16:45.110 poem about the sea of faith is receding 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:46.710 Brian Heathway wrote a book called the 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:48.790 ocean of truth which was like a 00:16:48.800 --> 00:16:50.870 reaffirmation that it's all true and it 00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:53.590 just seemed to me um it was a bit 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.269 analytic uh just a bit too close to 00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:01.110 common sense uh just this is what a 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:03.670 middle class common sensical English 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:05.110 gentleman would obviously think. That's 00:17:05.120 --> 00:17:06.549 what felt to me like we're in the 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.150 arguments. So, I did I didn't find it 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:09.990 intellectually exciting. Yeah. When I 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:11.510 sometimes encountered very analytic 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:12.870 forms of philosophy of religion, there's 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.069 some bits of them that I've liked, but 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.909 um often there's too little sensibility 00:17:19.919 --> 00:17:21.829 for faith or for the history of the 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:23.750 tradition in it. And it seems like 00:17:23.760 --> 00:17:25.429 people are playing more and more 00:17:25.439 --> 00:17:27.829 elaborate intellectual games with 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.230 crudely chosen ideas. in the book that 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:31.909 we're mostly going to be uh talking 00:17:31.919 --> 00:17:35.270 about today, you um have a a certain 00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:38.390 attraction to like an apathhatic 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.950 tradition of theology, which I would 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.270 just uh in in very broad brush strokes 00:17:43.280 --> 00:17:46.630 classify as a theology that insists on a 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.830 certain amount of unknowability for God. 00:17:49.840 --> 00:17:51.990 You cannot um approach God through 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:54.230 certain forms of reason, through 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.789 rationality, through logic. rather it's 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:00.549 a kind of receptive attitude uh letting 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.510 God uh come to you and fill in certain 00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:05.590 blanks maybe more mystical more in touch 00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:08.470 with the contemplative tradition of the 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.190 church. Um I I'm seeing you sort of 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.430 nodding but also shaking slightly. Uh 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:15.590 you can feel free to like um push back 00:18:15.600 --> 00:18:18.310 on that definition in some ways and also 00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:21.830 uh talk about how specifically you um 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:24.870 came to apathhatic theology. It can be 00:18:24.880 --> 00:18:27.669 mystical and receptive 00:18:27.679 --> 00:18:29.510 like the apehatic move, the insistence 00:18:29.520 --> 00:18:30.710 on what we don't know, on the 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.630 unknowability of God. But you can also 00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:34.549 find it in other figures who won't have 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.110 like a mystical sense at the forefront. 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:38.789 Yeah. So, it's an attentiveness to what 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:40.549 can't be known, to the limits of our 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:42.070 knowledge. I'm attracted to it because 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:45.909 it seems somehow fitting that if if God 00:18:45.919 --> 00:18:48.630 is the one who upholds everything in 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.110 being, then God can't be one more thing 00:18:51.120 --> 00:18:52.630 amongst the beings that you could 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.270 describe. There's got to be that God's 00:18:55.280 --> 00:18:57.029 got to be outside our ordinary 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.390 categories. Um otherwise 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.909 otherwise God and the world are two 00:19:01.919 --> 00:19:03.430 things that are upheld in some other 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.750 way. When I was a graduate student, the 00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:09.909 question I had was how can you have a 00:19:09.919 --> 00:19:11.909 intellectual discipline where you can 00:19:11.919 --> 00:19:13.830 talk about mystery and you can appeal to 00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:15.990 mystery and it can still be an 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:17.350 intellectual discipline? How does that 00:19:17.360 --> 00:19:20.950 not destroy its coherence? Um because 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:22.150 you know every time you make a bad 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:23.590 argument you say never mind it's just a 00:19:23.600 --> 00:19:25.909 mystery or you you can say anything 00:19:25.919 --> 00:19:27.350 because it's all a mystery and that was 00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:29.830 my I kind of went and asked my teachers 00:19:29.840 --> 00:19:31.430 can I write my PhD on this and nobody 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.909 could think how to turn that into a into 00:19:33.919 --> 00:19:37.909 a um sensible project but it was a kind 00:19:37.919 --> 00:19:40.549 of has always been a question which 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:41.909 bothers me and which I still don't feel 00:19:41.919 --> 00:19:43.669 like I have a complete answer for but I 00:19:43.679 --> 00:19:45.430 I started to for instance look at the 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.029 doctrine of the trinity to take a case 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:48.549 study and something that I thought was 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.070 mysterious and say well how's at work 00:19:50.080 --> 00:19:54.630 here. Um, so so you

could see this as as 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.950 uh stemming a little bit from my 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:58.950 mathematical 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:00.950 background. But yeah, if if you were in 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:02.549 a mathematical system, you would say if 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:05.029 you include a contradiction, things fall 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:06.870 apart and [laughter] 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.029 >> three equals one erggo, the whole thing 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:09.990 isn't true. 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.789 >> Is gone. Yeah. So how is it not that? 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:14.549 And it's not that I thought it might be. 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:16.390 It's that I could sense from what I from 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:18.230 I being exposed to this tradition that 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:20.549 it did have a 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:23.430 coherence and a strength to it as a 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.950 whole. Um but why could that be when it 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:28.310 could also have mystery? That was my 00:20:28.320 --> 00:20:28.950 question. And 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:30.710 >> before we move on, because I think we 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:32.149 should really get into this this three 00:20:32.159 --> 00:20:34.149 equals one, this sense of the the 00:20:34.159 --> 00:20:35.750 trinity is a doctrine whose 00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:38.789 senselessness is essential to to what 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:39.990 it's trying to say or what it's trying 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:43.590 to convey. Um, but shall we attempt a a 00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:45.830 sort of brief definition of of what the 00:20:45.840 --> 00:20:48.070 Trinity is, perhaps what it isn't? 00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:49.750 Because I feel uh among our viewers, 00:20:49.760 --> 00:20:51.350 even some of those Christian or 00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:53.029 Christianin inclined might have a 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:54.710 somewhat vague understanding, which I 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:57.029 think is almost the classic to vaguely 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.750 sort of okay, so there's three and it's 00:20:59.760 --> 00:21:02.470 one and they're not individually God, 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:03.830 but they are, you know, you can get 00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:05.990 taffled up in words. So what would your 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:08.470 sort of clean and clear definition just 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:09.990 before we get stuck in? 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.750 >> God is father, son, and holy spirit. 00:21:13.760 --> 00:21:17.350 Three persons, one substance. 00:21:17.360 --> 00:21:21.350 Um the father is God, the son is God, 00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:23.590 the Holy Spirit is God, but there aren't 00:21:23.600 --> 00:21:26.470 three gods. There's only one God. Um 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.870 that would be a kind of short form 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.470 version. 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:32.149 Um and I could talk a little bit about 00:21:32.159 --> 00:21:33.590 where it comes from, but maybe you don't 00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:35.350 want me to do that. I don't know. 00:21:35.360 --> 00:21:36.789 >> Well, I think it would be interesting to 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.390 get a bit of context because at least 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:40.789 from my understanding in the ver very 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.029 earliest biblical tradition, it was not 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:44.870 inherent. It wasn't at least in the 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.350 version we we have now. And perhaps you 00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:49.750 disagree, but it wasn't just in the text 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:52.310 that this is laid out as a formula. And 00:21:52.320 --> 00:21:54.549 indeed, it was the early church fathers, 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.549 perhaps inspired by Platonic thought, 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.510 perhaps not who developed this idea and 00:21:59.520 --> 00:22:01.350 then sort of found it in the text as 00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:02.870 well. But it isn't 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:04.870 >> clearly stated. But how how would you 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:06.310 define this this development? 00:22:06.320 --> 00:22:08.310 >> Yeah. So I' I'd definitely agree that 00:22:08.320 --> 00:22:10.630 that like that in the formula that I 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.230 just gave, the doctrine of eternity is 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:13.590 not sitting on the surface of the 00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:17.750 biblical text. Um and it was arrived at 00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:20.549 by about the 4th century through 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:22.470 pursuing the logic of what Christians 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.070 wanted to say about Jesus Christ. So you 00:22:26.080 --> 00:22:28.870 know it eventually becomes clear that 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.350 you're you're relating to Jesus as you 00:22:31.360 --> 00:22:32.789 relate to God. You're affirming that 00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:34.789 Jesus is God. So how is this Jesus 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.789 related to the father whom Jesus 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:39.990 addresses and who and to the you know to 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.870 the one Lord that's at the center of the 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.470 given faith that's inherited from 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:46.630 Judaism. You've got to figure out 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:47.990 because we're wanting to say all these 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.590 things about Jesus and then also the 00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:51.669 holy spirit and it's there at the end of 00:22:51.679 --> 00:22:53.590 the gospel of Matthew to baptize in the 00:22:53.600 --> 00:22:54.789 name of the father and the son and the 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:56.950 spirit. So, so even though the center of 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.590 the struggle was to figure out how is 00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:01.669 Jesus related to the father, the holy 00:23:01.679 --> 00:23:03.110 spirit's also playing an important role 00:23:03.120 --> 00:23:05.110 in the text and and and gets included. 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:06.390 The theologians of the period were 00:23:06.400 -->

00:23:08.870 picking up were using the vocabulary of 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.149 of Greek philosophy you know so uh in 00:23:12.159 --> 00:23:14.470 Greek the three persons were three 00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:16.230 hypotheses 00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:18.870 one substance usia. So they're sort of 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:21.350 philosophical terminology, but they 00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:23.830 weren't finding something already made 00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:25.669 in Greek philosophy and then importing 00:23:25.679 --> 00:23:27.590 it. And they were actually using it in a 00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:29.750 they ended up being forced to use to do 00:23:29.760 --> 00:23:31.190 things that didn't make sense, 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.870 particularly within the philosophical 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.950 scheme. So So my sense is it's the 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:37.750 pressure of the kind of belief in Christ 00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:40.870 that's central that leads to um the 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:43.510 development of the Trinity. um you know 00:23:43.520 --> 00:23:45.029 how can we make sense of what we're 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:46.789 already doing which is worshiping Christ 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.390 like we worship God but we haven't 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:50.630 forgotten we haven't just collapsed God 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:52.870 into Christ how does it work and then 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.350 you eventually 00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:58.390 have a lot of debates and um different 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.470 ways of managing it some of which 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.990 eventually go down in history as the 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.070 greatest heresy ever but at the time 00:24:04.080 --> 00:24:06.549 were you know why wouldn't it be the 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:08.390 Aryan approach so you they didn't know 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.390 in advance but but by the end of the 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.710 debate what was the what was the way we 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.070 were going to handle this was settled 00:24:14.080 --> 00:24:15.830 and it was the doctrine of the trinity. 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:17.590 >> Yeah. And the inclusion of the Holy 00:24:17.600 --> 00:24:19.590 Spirit in this historically speaking 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:21.110 seems a little interesting at first 00:24:21.120 --> 00:24:23.990 blush. I think for this sort of average 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.070 muser, the Holy Spirit always seems a 00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:27.510 bit like the third, you know, oh, the 00:24:27.520 --> 00:24:29.190 father and the son, that makes sense. 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.430 That's a, you know, a relationship. and 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.990 the Holy Spirit who just based on the 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.310 name has somewhat of an incorporeial 00:24:36.320 --> 00:24:39.750 kind of sensibility inspires writing 00:24:39.760 --> 00:24:41.669 dwells in the soul but does feel almost 00:24:41.679 --> 00:24:43.350 like you can imagine a more Jewish 00:24:43.360

--> 00:24:45.750 sensibility to for that to be like an 00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:48.070 attribute like wisdom like a sort of 00:24:48.080 --> 00:24:50.390 part of of the father that he sends out 00:24:50.400 --> 00:24:52.390 as a which obviously contradicts the 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:55.190 doctrine of the trinity. Um, and was 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.190 this originally controversial, making 00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:58.630 two into three? Because of course when 00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.990 you've when you're trying to argue the 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.990 divinity of Christ, then really you're 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.909 arguing for two things, but to add a 00:25:03.919 --> 00:25:06.710 third seems like quite a a radical 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:08.149 shift. It's like, well, we're already 00:25:08.159 --> 00:25:09.430 doing two, right? 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.070 >> Let's make it three. 00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:13.590 Um, 00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:17.269 so one side note on the kind of on the 00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.990 wisdom theme is that actually Christ is 00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:21.990 described as wisdom a both directly and 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:23.830 indirectly a lot in the New Testament. 00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:25.430 But anyways, doesn't really matter. 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:28.710 Look, I think the the contingent focus 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.269 of the historically contingent point of 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:33.830 concentration was on the relation of the 00:25:33.840 --> 00:25:37.750 son to the father of Jesus to God. Um, 00:25:37.760 --> 00:25:39.350 because that was where the controversy 00:25:39.360 --> 00:25:40.950 had broken out. That's where people were 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.549 disagreeing. Um, but there's quite a few 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:45.990 biblical reasons why if you're going to 00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:47.909 go for two, then you'll go for three. So 00:25:47.919 --> 00:25:49.510 that that line from the end of Matthew 00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.029 about baptize them in the name of the 00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.549 father and the son and the spirit. But 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:54.470 there are other key moments in the texts 00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.230 where 00:25:56.240 --> 00:25:58.470 >> uh in in in Paul's text, he does have 00:25:58.480 --> 00:26:00.950 some benitarian formula sometimes. But 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.510 there are definitely places in Paul's 00:26:03.520 --> 00:26:05.750 text where there's clear three-fold 00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:09.190 pattern. their key moments at the um you 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.110 know the baptism of Christ and other key 00:26:11.120 --> 00:26:13.190 moments where all parties are there but 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.590 your sense of the slightly ephemeral 00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:18.630 haziness of the Holy Spirit is yeah it's 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.310 very widely shared I know by by and and 00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:23.990 there's been a lot of self-crutiny by 00:26:24.000

--> 00:26:25.269 theologians in the last couple 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.750 generations we must do more about the we 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:29.190 we've got to get clearer about the Holy 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.549 Spirit we got to put it back into the 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.070 center um so but I don't think there was 00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:36.310 huge resistance like I I I I think they 00:26:36.320 --> 00:26:37.669 had to there was a bit of a struggle. 00:26:37.679 --> 00:26:40.070 There was a group known as the fighters 00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:41.510 against the Holy Spirit in the 4th 00:26:41.520 --> 00:26:43.190 century. So they they did have to be 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.269 defeated, but it didn't feel like nearly 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.230 as divisive an issue. It followed pretty 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.510 naturally once you knew what you were 00:26:49.520 --> 00:26:52.070 going to say about father and son. 00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:54.870 >> Yeah, I suppose once you've given out 00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:57.350 the the kind of logical basis for the 00:26:57.360 --> 00:26:59.590 father and son, it's it's I suppose 00:26:59.600 --> 00:27:01.430 easier or more rational to then add the 00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.669 third. You don't have to argue again for 00:27:03.679 --> 00:27:05.990 persons. For instance, that is Yeah, 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.590 you've already you've already stuck with 00:27:07.600 --> 00:27:08.789 something very difficult and doesn't 00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:10.310 really get more difficult by adding one 00:27:10.320 --> 00:27:11.750 more in would be one would be one way of 00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:12.630 putting it if you 00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:14.149 >> and you could and you could keep going 00:27:14.159 --> 00:27:15.990 hypothetically as well. You could like 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:18.230 once you've reached two there is nothing 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.190 to stop infinity in a sense like if I if 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.149 I mean that like but you understand what 00:27:24.159 --> 00:27:27.990 I mean it implies infinite like once 00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:31.110 you've got one it's kind of this unified 00:27:31.120 --> 00:27:34.390 um out of time out of space but as soon 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:36.630 as there's an addition you're there's 00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.190 like an implication that that could just 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.110 keep going one add one add one add one 00:27:41.120 --> 00:27:42.390 add one um 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.549 >> so yeah I think if you were playing 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:47.430 around with philosophical systems you'd 00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:49.110 want to consider that argument. I don't 00:27:49.120 --> 00:27:52.310 think that but I think you know why not 00:27:52.320 --> 00:27:54.230 why stop at three why not have four and 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:58.149 there have been figures like um Jung 00:27:58.159 --> 00:27:59.669 thought 00:27:59.679 --> 00:28:01.190 trinity has to become

a quaternity 00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.630 because he thought that four was a kind 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.149 of you know appropriate 00:28:04.159 --> 00:28:05.750 >> what old is the fourth I've I've heard 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:06.710 that quite a bit 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:08.630 >> or or marry might might be another 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.710 option I think if you're sticking to the 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.669 idea of um there being some sort of 00:28:13.679 --> 00:28:15.510 givenness to Christianity then it's not 00:28:15.520 --> 00:28:17.590 going to just add extras so if you 00:28:17.600 --> 00:28:18.549 abstract 00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:21.269 the pattern into a separate page of a 00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.350 philosophical messing around with then 00:28:23.360 --> 00:28:25.110 yeah maybe you can say why not keep 00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:27.510 going you know one too many that might 00:28:27.520 --> 00:28:28.710 be your way of counting right once you 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:30.789 get beyond two you could just have any 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:32.549 >> but within the context where you're 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.950 rooted in Christian practice and to 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:37.269 these scriptural texts I don't think a 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:39.430 fourth has come up as a very serious 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.870 proposal um I I'm not sure I'm not I 00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:44.470 don't have complete mastery of the 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:45.830 tradition but yeah 00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:47.990 >> it' be amusing to there's just a fourth. 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.389 Yeah, it's Dave. We've got Father, Son, 00:28:50.399 --> 00:28:52.470 Holy Spirit. There's also Dave. He's 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.190 He's shown [laughter] up. How did Dave 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:56.630 pull this one off? Yeah. 00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:59.029 >> Yeah. There's there's that there's that 00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:01.350 fear with with numbers, I suppose, that 00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:03.510 it it um 00:29:03.520 --> 00:29:06.070 >> there's maybe it's just a psychological 00:29:06.080 --> 00:29:08.950 reaction to numbers higher than one 00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:11.590 referring to God that it starts to get 00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:14.630 into the realm where it feels arbitrary. 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.789 numbers like like if God were 17 person 00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.070 uh it would raise an eyebrow or 342 00:29:22.080 --> 00:29:23.350 person or 00:29:23.360 --> 00:29:24.230 >> right 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:26.310 >> like there's something about about 00:29:26.320 --> 00:29:29.909 oneness that is you know for the the 00:29:29.919 --> 00:29:32.389 major monotheisms extremely appealing 00:29:32.399 --> 00:29:34.389 and and emphasizing that and one of the 00:29:34.399 --> 00:29:37.350 I mean perhaps the main uh spanner that 00:29:37.360 --> 00:29:40.470 the trinity has thrown into the works of 00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.430 Christian theology is being able to 00:29:43.440

--> 00:29:46.070 affirm affirm this oneness while also 00:29:46.080 --> 00:29:48.070 affirming separateness. 00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:51.830 >> Um, yeah, as you were saying, in a way 00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:53.510 that doesn't that doesn't break the 00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:54.710 entire system. 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:55.990 >> I'm curious. You were saying that the 00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:57.909 trinity was like nothing that was there 00:29:57.919 --> 00:30:00.630 before in in in kind of Greek thought. 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:02.470 To what extent do you think it is like 00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.070 completely unprecedented? 00:30:04.080 --> 00:30:05.350 >> Okay. Yeah, maybe that was an 00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:07.430 overstatement. I was thinking, sorry, 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.190 did you want to give an example or 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:09.830 >> No, no, 00:30:09.840 --> 00:30:12.710 >> no. I mean you have in certain kinds of 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:14.549 neoplatanism you have a kind of 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.549 descending system from the one to the 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.830 noose to something else. Um so there's 00:30:21.840 --> 00:30:24.310 there are some patterns out there. What 00:30:24.320 --> 00:30:26.870 I was what I was thinking about in this 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.630 particular case was um the two key words 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.029 that become you know one substance three 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:35.029 persons or in the Greek one who us three 00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.750 hypotheses before those became the key 00:30:37.760 --> 00:30:40.630 technical terms for the trinity somebody 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.470 would have said they were synonyms they 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:44.630 kind of meant the same thing. Okay. 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.269 >> Um, so they were forcing the words to 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.350 play in a new way or to into a new 00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:51.350 pattern because they needed they needed 00:30:51.360 --> 00:30:53.750 something to coales around and there was 00:30:53.760 --> 00:30:56.950 a huge um objection 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:00.230 to uh the the the word that a lot of you 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:01.990 know for more than half a century that a 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.950 debate spun around was homoios of one 00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:06.630 substance. So the claim was father and 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:12.470 son was homoios of the father. Um and 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:15.830 and that's what won out as orthodoxy. 00:31:15.840 --> 00:31:16.870 But at the time it seemed very 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.549 unorthodox because it was not a biblical 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:20.870 word. So what's this new foreign word? 00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.269 Why make this the decisive criterion for 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.389 orthodoxy that you have this? So it 00:31:26.399 --> 00:31:28.950 doesn't feel to me like it's just look 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:30.950 it's all so clear from the philosophy. 00:31:30.960 -->

00:31:33.669 It was more terrible struggle to how are 00:31:33.679 --> 00:31:34.789 we going to resist this other 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.230 interpretation that we think is wrong 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:37.909 and how are we going to articulate it 00:31:37.919 --> 00:31:41.509 and we'll force these words where we I 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:42.950 think still don't know what they mean. 00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:45.029 the people then don't don't know what 00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:47.590 they mean by hypothesis or usia, but 00:31:47.600 --> 00:31:49.029 we're going to use them in this way. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:52.230 >> And they're sort of using language to to 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.029 try and push against the the the borders 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.590 of what what they can know, what they 00:31:57.600 --> 00:31:59.990 can possibly mean because it it's imposs 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.310 it's kind of hard to mean God with a 00:32:02.320 --> 00:32:04.149 word. 00:32:04.159 --> 00:32:07.990 And um you you have to in a sense that 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:09.990 would possibly have been a paradox to a 00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:12.630 Greek speaker at the time taking these 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:15.830 two synonymic terms and insisting they 00:32:15.840 --> 00:32:17.350 have completely different meanings in 00:32:17.360 --> 00:32:20.310 order to to push one beyond common sense 00:32:20.320 --> 00:32:22.070 I suppose. 00:32:22.080 --> 00:32:24.070 Yeah. Because you're trying to describe 00:32:24.080 --> 00:32:26.470 something that goes beyond common sense. 00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:28.070 You're trying to describe an 00:32:28.080 --> 00:32:30.549 unprecedented interruption 00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.389 in common sense reality. 00:32:34.399 --> 00:32:36.549 Yeah, you could see it that way or in a 00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.750 more deflationary account, it might just 00:32:39.760 --> 00:32:42.470 be you're trying to hold the pattern 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.669 that there's definitely three 00:32:43.679 --> 00:32:45.909 somethings. So, Augustine said this, 00:32:45.919 --> 00:32:49.830 what do we mean by three persons? 00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:52.630 Um, we don't know, but it just sounds a 00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:54.070 lot better than saying three. we don't 00:32:54.080 --> 00:32:57.269 know what's um so you you need a word to 00:32:57.279 --> 00:32:59.190 hold the position to have to hold to 00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.110 hold the pattern that the father and the 00:33:01.120 --> 00:33:03.509 son and the spirit are are one god of 00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:05.430 one substance and they're not the same 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.269 and these words perform that function 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:09.669 and they don't as I understand it they 00:33:09.679 --> 00:33:12.470 don't have some extra subtlety of 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:14.149 meaning that that's just what they're 00:33:14.159 --> 00:33:16.230 doing for us um 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:18.950 >> yeah and it's so almost like the use of 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.110 zero in some numeracy it's just useful 00:33:21.120 --> 00:33:23.669 to hold the air even when it's actually 00:33:23.679 --> 00:33:26.470 meant to convey nothing in particular. 00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:29.029 You must convey it. You can't simply 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:30.870 leave the absence there. So it's, you 00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:33.269 know, it's indicating look over here, 00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:34.789 something's going on, 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:37.029 >> but that's and we just have to have a 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.029 term for it. But I'm interested in terms 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.750 of, so we have this maybe neoplatonic 00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:43.750 system, which is not quite the same, but 00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:45.830 similar. But I'm also just curious about 00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:48.230 the number three in general. Now this is 00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.870 more just a kind of uh folklore 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.870 intuition but that the number three is 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:55.350 quite significant to people in general. 00:33:55.360 --> 00:33:57.190 Three is a magic number. I'm not sure 00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.389 how much of that is post trinity western 00:34:00.399 --> 00:34:01.909 culture who have really like you know 00:34:01.919 --> 00:34:04.310 made this seriously important number or 00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:07.269 indeed just one of those supreme just 00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:09.030 it's like the number seven people seem 00:34:09.040 --> 00:34:11.109 to like it a lot. Is that because of the 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:13.430 virtues or is that the cause of the 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:16.069 virtues? But I was thinking of the that 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.149 the famous um Hindu sort of algorithm of 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.510 being consciousness bliss being crucial 00:34:23.520 --> 00:34:25.030 to their their kind of vision. 00:34:25.040 --> 00:34:28.230 >> Brahma, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva as well. 00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:30.470 >> Exactly. So can we see this pattern 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:31.750 because there's a sense to which 00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:33.909 trinitarianism seems incompatible with 00:34:33.919 --> 00:34:35.270 pretty much every other religious 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:37.109 tradition because it's not quite with 00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:39.430 the polytheists and all the monotheists 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:41.990 have a big problem with it. But can we 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.149 actually find this pattern, this triple 00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.230 pattern, not expressed in exactly the 00:34:46.240 --> 00:34:48.389 same way as as I think we've 00:34:48.399 --> 00:34:50.869 established, but as a way of um 00:34:50.879 --> 00:34:52.710 interpreting the divine that we can't do 00:34:52.720 --> 00:34:55.369 it with just one category or one word 00:34:55.379 --> 00:34:55.909 [clears throat] 00:34:55.919 --> 00:34:57.829 that we actually and three for some 00:34:57.839

--> 00:34:59.430 reason is better than as Jack says, you 00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:02.550 know, 412 or 17. 00:35:02.560 --> 00:35:05.349 >> Yeah, I think some I think some might 00:35:05.359 --> 00:35:08.790 agree with you. Um and it would fit into 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:13.190 this. Um there's a tradition of finding 00:35:13.200 --> 00:35:15.270 vestigages of the trinity vestigia 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.589 trinitatus in the world. So you know the 00:35:19.599 --> 00:35:22.390 three dimensions, height, length, 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:22.790 >> yeah, 00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:27.829 >> width, um a musical chord, uh the three 00:35:27.839 --> 00:35:32.550 ways of you know water being ice, uh 00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:36.630 liquid, gas, um and you can you can keep 00:35:36.640 --> 00:35:39.670 going. Um and and so why not say also 00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:41.990 that three is somehow so important from 00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:44.230 a Christian point of view? might say 00:35:44.240 --> 00:35:45.910 that it's not surprising that you find 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:47.990 it embedded in other religious 00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.150 traditions. So you could say that and 00:35:50.160 --> 00:35:52.150 some people would 00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:55.109 I get a little cynical here and think 00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:57.589 but if we had landed on two we'd have 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.550 been saying male female yin and yang you 00:36:00.560 --> 00:36:04.150 know we could find equal equally central 00:36:04.160 --> 00:36:05.430 patterns around two 00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.190 >> or 17. Yeah, you 00:36:07.200 --> 00:36:09.910 >> maybe not 17. Maybe not 17, but you 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:11.750 know, but any small number you can 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.069 probably find, especially for like four, 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:15.990 maybe a bit harder, but you got Yung and 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:16.950 you, you know, Mandela, 00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:18.069 >> the seasons, 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.109 >> the seasons. Yeah. So, so I sort of 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:23.670 think we're operating the other way that 00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:25.270 because 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.349 Yeah. among small numbers especially, 00:36:27.359 --> 00:36:29.430 you can probably find that's my kind of 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.990 again slightly deflationary, not wanting 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:35.190 to overclaim about what we understand. 00:36:35.200 --> 00:36:36.790 Um, 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:38.470 yeah. But interesting 00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.270 >> one that I've heard is is quark charges. 00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.390 Like the three quarks that make up the 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.710 neutron or proton. There's three of them 00:36:46.720 --> 00:36:49.270 and they all have charge amounts that 00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.150 are one over three or two over three or 00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:53.430 something like this. 00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:55.990 >> So yeah, you can if you're if you're 00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.470 looking then you'll find the threes. I 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:02.630 suppose you know when I started when you 00:37:02.640 --> 00:37:04.950 asked me for my quick definition I 00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:06.630 started with the names of father son and 00:37:06.640 --> 00:37:08.950 spirit I like I think somehow the 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.589 fascination with the number is a mistake 00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:12.870 um but 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:14.310 >> that's yeah 00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.710 >> yeah yeah I suppose it the thing with 00:37:16.720 --> 00:37:18.710 the number is it opens up that um 00:37:18.720 --> 00:37:19.750 especially with this kind of 00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:21.670 deflationary account it opens up a bit 00:37:21.680 --> 00:37:24.390 of a post-modern black hole underneath 00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:27.109 you it makes it seem like whatever the 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:29.430 church had said, told us to believe, we 00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:31.190 would have found a way of believing it. 00:37:31.200 --> 00:37:33.990 I'm thinking of just just to flesh out 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.190 this point, especially from opponents of 00:37:37.200 --> 00:37:40.310 uh of Christianity, of classism, the 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:43.270 there's this attribute attributation of 00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:45.990 of sort of totalitarian sort of thought 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.670 processes in there. I'm thinking of 00:37:47.680 --> 00:37:50.150 Winston Smith in 1984 with the four 00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:52.069 cubes in front of him, and he's only 00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:53.910 allowed out of his cell. They'll only 00:37:53.920 --> 00:37:56.310 stop torturing him once he sees the four 00:37:56.320 --> 00:37:59.510 blocks as five blocks. He can't just 00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:01.589 say, "I believe there are five blocks in 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:03.510 front of me." The party need him to 00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:06.470 believe there are five blocks and that 00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.630 the party's mandate that right 00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:11.030 >> 2 plus two is five is more important 00:38:11.040 --> 00:38:12.710 >> than his common sense. 00:38:12.720 --> 00:38:15.430 >> Right? So the accusation would be it 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:17.990 somehow goes with a totalitarian regime 00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.670 that you make people swallow nonsense 00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:21.030 and once you've made them do that 00:38:21.040 --> 00:38:23.750 they've lost their self-respect and 00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:25.349 dignity and then you can they're 00:38:25.359 --> 00:38:27.030 malleable in your hands. 00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:28.310 >> Precisely. Yeah. You've made them 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:29.670 believe three equals one. You can do 00:38:29.680 --> 00:38:30.950 anything with them. 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.190 >> Yeah. I mean I I don't feel that I I you 00:38:35.200 --> 00:38:38.230 know certainly the Catholic Church has 00:38:38.240 --> 00:38:41.109 at times acted in a

you know scarily 00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.310 authoritarian and and repressive way and 00:38:44.320 --> 00:38:45.670 maybe played games like that with 00:38:45.680 --> 00:38:47.910 people. I'm sure there are moments, but 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:49.910 I don't see it as a very plausible 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.750 account of this particular period in 00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:53.430 history in which the Trinity emerged 00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:55.589 because the the key thing was were you 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.270 going to be an Aryan or were you going 00:38:57.280 --> 00:39:00.710 to be a nine Christian and at the start 00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:03.349 actually interestingly the this early on 00:39:03.359 --> 00:39:05.750 in the big conflict 00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:08.390 the emperor tried to impose order so 00:39:08.400 --> 00:39:11.430 tried to force things um and just kind 00:39:11.440 --> 00:39:13.190 of picked one side and it was the side 00:39:13.200 --> 00:39:15.270 of the people who said homoas the side 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.430 that eventually emerged as orthodox, but 00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.589 it didn't work because people were too 00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:21.030 worried. We don't know what this means. 00:39:21.040 --> 00:39:22.230 We don't know that you're not following 00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:24.390 into some other heresy. We don't like 00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:26.470 this new word. So, the controversy raged 00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:30.630 on for another 50 years. Um, so, you 00:39:30.640 --> 00:39:32.710 know, one side won in the end. It was 00:39:32.720 --> 00:39:34.550 certainly there was lots of politics and 00:39:34.560 --> 00:39:35.990 complexity and when you when you read 00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.510 the details of the story it depends 00:39:37.520 --> 00:39:39.349 which emperor is in charge who's being 00:39:39.359 --> 00:39:41.510 favored and it's it's all really 00:39:41.520 --> 00:39:43.030 complicated but it's not a simple 00:39:43.040 --> 00:39:45.349 Mchavelian 00:39:45.359 --> 00:39:47.270 well-defined church deciding to impose a 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:49.030 bit of nonsense on people. It's 00:39:49.040 --> 00:39:50.790 deciding, are we going to go for that 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:52.230 view of how the son relates to the 00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:54.630 father or this view? And both of them 00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:57.589 can claim to be interpreting scripture, 00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.270 but they can't both be right. And which 00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:00.630 are we going to decide is the right way 00:40:00.640 --> 00:40:02.550 to interpret the Bible. And an 00:40:02.560 --> 00:40:04.710 interesting point rel relevant to the 00:40:04.720 --> 00:40:07.349 arguments you make in the book is uh you 00:40:07.359 --> 00:40:09.910 you make the claim and you you cite the 00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:11.430 phantom toll booth which I was very 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.430 endeared by that when we're the the 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:15.109 doctrine of the trinity we're sort of 00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:17.990 all rhyme no reason that the closer you 00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.829 get to it that the more into the weeds 00:40:19.839 --> 00:40:22.470 you go all you can really do is prove 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.190 what you can't prove and and this is I 00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:26.630 think your argument with Aquinus that 00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:29.910 his his arguments serve as proof of the 00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:31.829 lack of a plausible argument because he 00:40:31.839 --> 00:40:33.670 he gets all the way right near to the 00:40:33.680 --> 00:40:35.430 end and then can't make that final 00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.390 logical leap and that in that there is 00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:40.790 some sense of of what the trinity is 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.950 conveying about the unknowability of God 00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:44.790 that to look at it closely enough you 00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:47.430 can see what you don't know now an issue 00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:48.950 that comes to mind and I think you've 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:50.710 already referred to it before but if 00:40:50.720 --> 00:40:53.910 you've kind of got a a non-verifiable 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:55.670 argument which is to say you cannot use 00:40:55.680 --> 00:40:57.829 logic to prove this thing in the context 00:40:57.839 --> 00:40:59.990 of this controversy of the church 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:01.990 particularly in in the earlier years. 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:04.630 How can you defend an argument that by 00:41:04.640 --> 00:41:06.390 its almost by its definition is 00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:08.470 unprovable? How could how can you be 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:11.510 sure that the trinity and not rainity or 00:41:11.520 --> 00:41:14.550 or not the unitary model is true if part 00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.109 of the actual nature of it is that it 00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:19.349 cannot make complete sense to the human 00:41:19.359 --> 00:41:19.910 mind? 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:22.309 >> I guess there's two different questions. 00:41:22.319 --> 00:41:25.589 One is could you persuade yourself that 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:29.670 it is the more faithful way to to talk 00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:31.829 about Jesus and his relation to the 00:41:31.839 --> 00:41:33.670 father and the spirit as depicted in the 00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:36.069 biblical narrative. So you might say we 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:38.790 can see that this works better than that 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:41.030 alternative Aryan interpretation of 00:41:41.040 --> 00:41:43.510 these same texts. It it retains more 00:41:43.520 --> 00:41:44.950 that we need to retain. It makes more 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:46.630 sense within our overall sense of the 00:41:46.640 --> 00:41:49.589 whole of this worldview and this faith 00:41:49.599 --> 00:41:53.589 and this movement towards salvation. 00:41:53.599 --> 00:41:56.470 But we still don't it makes more sense 00:41:56.480 --> 00:41:58.150 to say what

we're saying than to say 00:41:58.160 --> 00:41:59.910 what he said. But we still don't know 00:41:59.920 --> 00:42:04.550 what we're saying means. Um 00:42:04.560 --> 00:42:06.710 but it but there's still an argument why 00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:08.390 to say it this way rather than that way. 00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.309 And it would be because it it you know 00:42:10.319 --> 00:42:12.309 it makes better sense of the whole of 00:42:12.319 --> 00:42:15.430 this what's been received in in 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:17.670 scripture and practice. It might be a 00:42:17.680 --> 00:42:19.349 hard thing to swallow this very high 00:42:19.359 --> 00:42:21.190 view of Jesus that he's not just one 00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:22.710 great 00:42:22.720 --> 00:42:25.430 religious person among others but that 00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:28.950 he's equal with God. It might be hard to 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:31.349 swallow that. If if you're if if you're 00:42:31.359 --> 00:42:33.030 inclined to accept that kind of thing, 00:42:33.040 --> 00:42:34.470 then I think the problem with the 00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:36.150 doctrine of the trinity is not why 00:42:36.160 --> 00:42:38.069 should we 00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:41.030 believe it. But it's once we've realized 00:42:41.040 --> 00:42:42.870 we must we must say these separate 00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:44.150 things. We must say there's only one 00:42:44.160 --> 00:42:47.670 God. We must say that Jesus is divine um 00:42:47.680 --> 00:42:49.349 and that the Holy Spirit's full and not 00:42:49.359 --> 00:42:51.829 a lesser divinity but fully divine. How 00:42:51.839 --> 00:42:53.270 do we put them together? That's where I 00:42:53.280 --> 00:42:54.309 think we get blocked. How do we 00:42:54.319 --> 00:42:56.150 synthesize them? There's no way I would 00:42:56.160 --> 00:42:57.589 want to try to prove the doctrine of the 00:42:57.599 --> 00:43:00.150 trinity to someone who didn't accept 00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:02.069 anything was particularly significant 00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:04.470 about Christ. 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:06.230 Um, 00:43:06.240 --> 00:43:09.030 but if there is, then you might get to 00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:11.510 where you need to say this and you don't 00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:12.870 know how it all fits together. And that 00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:15.829 doesn't seem to me irrational. It's it's 00:43:15.839 --> 00:43:17.510 a limit to where reason can go, a limit 00:43:17.520 --> 00:43:19.510 to what we can understand. But yeah, 00:43:19.520 --> 00:43:21.190 >> I guess it's part of the problem and 00:43:21.200 --> 00:43:22.790 part of it is the basis you're coming 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:25.109 from. For example, if you you have other 00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:27.829 monotheists, Jews or Muslims, arguing 00:43:27.839 --> 00:43:29.270 against the Trinity, they would take 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:32.150 Aquinus's failure to reach a proper 00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:34.069 logical argument as a proof. They're 00:43:34.079 --> 00:43:35.670 like, "Well, look at this. Even Aquinus 00:43:35.680 --> 00:43:37.670 can't get there. Therefore, this doesn't 00:43:37.680 --> 00:43:39.510 make sense." Whereas our calculations 00:43:39.520 --> 00:43:42.069 for, you know, Unitarianism do add up. 00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:43.589 Therefore, ours is the more plausible 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:45.430 argument. But I suppose you're saying 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:47.190 you need to already be there from a sort 00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:49.510 of scriptural basis. You have the New 00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:51.589 Testament as the sort of objective 00:43:51.599 --> 00:43:53.990 scripture. And if the claim is that it 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:56.470 is in there to some degree, just because 00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:58.470 we can't come to like supreme knowledge 00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.990 of what is in there, yeah, 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:01.910 >> that doesn't therefore say it's not in 00:44:01.920 --> 00:44:03.750 there. I guess the only issue you'd come 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.230 to are people like the Aryans or whatnot 00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:07.910 who have the same text 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.990 >> and who aren't finding it in there to 00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:11.190 begin with. And they probably say, 00:44:11.200 --> 00:44:12.950 "Well, not only can I not find it in 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:13.829 here, 00:44:13.839 --> 00:44:16.150 >> but I've now heard your proof of it, and 00:44:16.160 --> 00:44:18.790 it's also incomplete 00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:20.630 >> or not logically satisfying. Therefore, 00:44:20.640 --> 00:44:22.150 these two pieces of evidence together. 00:44:22.160 --> 00:44:23.510 But if you take the first one as 00:44:23.520 --> 00:44:25.430 granted, then I suppose the second one 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:27.510 is less problematic and more interesting 00:44:27.520 --> 00:44:30.390 in the way that you talk about it. 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.349 So, one one way of putting your point 00:44:33.359 --> 00:44:37.829 about Jews and Muslims might be 00:44:37.839 --> 00:44:41.270 um if you had no other reason to go for 00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.710 the doctrine of the Trinity, then you 00:44:42.720 --> 00:44:44.550 just knew this was one of the ways that 00:44:44.560 --> 00:44:46.150 purported monotheisms presented 00:44:46.160 --> 00:44:48.069 themselves and you were looking for 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:50.150 intellectual elegance and simplicity. 00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:53.430 Surely you'd want to go for a Jewish or 00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:55.190 Islamic, you know, it would just be more 00:44:55.200 --> 00:44:57.430 elegant and simple. You knock out these 00:44:57.440 --> 00:44:59.109 extra problems. So you have to have a 00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:01.270 reason why you would put up with the 00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:03.750 extra difficulties. But if you're 00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.069 starting 00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.109 from commitment inside, you know, to to 00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:13.030 thinking

there's I I must, you know, I 00:45:13.040 --> 00:45:17.910 hold Christ in this role, then you you 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:20.230 put up with that somehow. Um, and it 00:45:20.240 --> 00:45:21.670 doesn't make you illogical. It just 00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:24.069 means you have a less elegantly simple 00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:25.670 account than you would if you could just 00:45:25.680 --> 00:45:27.829 say God is one and that's the end of it. 00:45:27.839 --> 00:45:29.349 Yeah. And something I like about your 00:45:29.359 --> 00:45:31.349 argument is is the way in which 00:45:31.359 --> 00:45:34.150 inelegance and [snorts] ignorance and 00:45:34.160 --> 00:45:37.510 and inability are made sort of crucial 00:45:37.520 --> 00:45:39.030 to faith in a way crucial to 00:45:39.040 --> 00:45:41.670 understanding what kind it. It's like if 00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:44.069 all of this was neatly possible, it 00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:45.670 would shrink the thing you're arguing 00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:47.510 about necessarily because it could be 00:45:47.520 --> 00:45:49.349 contained within our skulls. It could be 00:45:49.359 --> 00:45:51.670 contained within our reality. And one of 00:45:51.680 --> 00:45:53.829 the I think most fascinating points you 00:45:53.839 --> 00:45:56.710 you raise is that theologians should not 00:45:56.720 --> 00:45:59.030 expect to get a special district of 00:45:59.040 --> 00:46:01.190 heaven which is maybe a slightly 00:46:01.200 --> 00:46:02.710 outrageous way of saying that just 00:46:02.720 --> 00:46:04.150 because you've dedicated your life to 00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:05.910 theology doesn't mean you should or 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.870 indeed do have better access to God or 00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.030 the divine mystery. And I think there's 00:46:11.040 --> 00:46:12.790 a very there's a very good sort of 00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.390 justification for that which is to say 00:46:14.400 --> 00:46:16.950 why would any god create a religion that 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.109 can only be accessed if you spend 40 00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:21.349 years it like kind of staring at pieces 00:46:21.359 --> 00:46:23.349 of paper it's like ah finally I get it 00:46:23.359 --> 00:46:25.589 this is this is god and everyone else 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:27.829 can't get it because they aren't able to 00:46:27.839 --> 00:46:29.910 follow my 15 postulates 00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.069 >> one after the other but I I assume you 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:33.349 get some 00:46:33.359 --> 00:46:35.190 >> some clapback on that one from 00:46:35.200 --> 00:46:37.030 theologians who think no I do know this 00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:38.550 better than than you know the 00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:40.710 parishioner down the mode. Um, and what 00:46:40.720 --> 00:46:43.349 is your sort of defense of this? And if 00:46:43.359 --> 00:46:45.670 the defense is strong, to what extent is 00:46:45.680 --> 00:46:47.510 theology just a sort of waste of time, 00:46:47.520 --> 00:46:50.069 like a hobby, a pastime, but is it that 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:51.589 meaningful if it's not giving us 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:53.910 anything that isn't already accessible? 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.190 >> Yeah, there's quite a few interesting 00:46:55.200 --> 00:46:57.430 questions. I do get some push back and 00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:59.990 people the push back might come in the 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.230 phrase well of course we don't know 00:47:02.240 --> 00:47:04.550 radically more than your ordinary person 00:47:04.560 --> 00:47:06.550 in the pews but we do get little 00:47:06.560 --> 00:47:09.510 glimpses and intimations from all our 00:47:09.520 --> 00:47:13.190 devoted study of theology um and we have 00:47:13.200 --> 00:47:16.390 something to offer back uh and it's it's 00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:18.550 very appealing to a lot of people to say 00:47:18.560 --> 00:47:22.309 that um but it seems to me to go against 00:47:22.319 --> 00:47:25.750 the drift of Christianity you know Jesus 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:28.470 talks in simple agricultural metaphors 00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.870 and Paul talks about the wisdom of this 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:33.510 world being not such a good thing. So, 00:47:33.520 --> 00:47:35.430 so it seems to me implausible that 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:37.589 there's this hierarchy of how close you 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.309 can get to God and the people who have 00:47:40.319 --> 00:47:42.950 dealt with the hardest technicalities 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.390 for the longest are somewhat closer. So 00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:48.309 then the question, what good could 00:47:48.319 --> 00:47:51.349 theology be? It's got like a def a 00:47:51.359 --> 00:47:53.349 definite modest role that something it 00:47:53.359 --> 00:47:55.829 can deliver. There's a quote from a 00:47:55.839 --> 00:47:58.950 early theologian Aagrias Ponticus that 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:01.990 people often cite that the theologian is 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.470 the one who prays and the one who prays 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.510 truly is a theologian and and the 00:48:07.520 --> 00:48:08.950 version of that that I've had is the 00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:11.030 theologian is the one who prays and who 00:48:11.040 --> 00:48:13.109 stumbles in their praying and who thinks 00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.309 about their stumbling. So there are 00:48:16.319 --> 00:48:18.950 there are confusing things or puzzles 00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:20.390 that come along. How are you going to 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:22.870 make sense of stuff within Christianity? 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:24.790 How are you going to relate it to what's 00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:28.230 going on and uh to to things around you? 00:48:28.240 --> 00:48:30.950 How how do you understand creation? And 00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:33.030 the theologian because they notice the 00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:35.750 problems and they struggle with them. 00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:37.510 They they might actually be worse

at 00:48:37.520 --> 00:48:39.030 praying because they got distracted by 00:48:39.040 --> 00:48:40.630 the problems and they didn't get closer 00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:42.069 to God, but they do have something to 00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:44.150 bring back to everyone else. Like here's 00:48:44.160 --> 00:48:45.430 a problem that you might have felt 00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:47.030 without noticing it too much and here's 00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:48.230 how you can think about it and that 00:48:48.240 --> 00:48:49.990 could be helpful. So, I think there's a 00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.150 there's like a modest service of 00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:57.430 um spotting stumbling points and 00:48:57.440 --> 00:49:00.309 difficulties and um bringing them to the 00:49:00.319 --> 00:49:01.910 surface and kind of therapeutically 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:03.829 letting people 00:49:03.839 --> 00:49:05.910 reflect on them and and and possible 00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:08.390 solutions. Could we I mean maybe this is 00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:11.589 is really clashing words and categories 00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:13.349 a bit too much but the early church 00:49:13.359 --> 00:49:15.589 fathers who devised the trinity who sort 00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:17.190 of you could argue either discovered it 00:49:17.200 --> 00:49:19.349 or or formulated it they could be 00:49:19.359 --> 00:49:20.549 considered in their way to be 00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:23.030 theologians and I suppose they their 00:49:23.040 --> 00:49:25.829 purpose was to reveal this aspect which 00:49:25.839 --> 00:49:27.589 doesn't therefore I mean maybe one could 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:29.910 argue when they'd first found it that 00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:32.790 they had a genuinely greater insight to 00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:35.190 God because no one else had had this. I 00:49:35.200 --> 00:49:36.630 mean perhaps you can argue you don't 00:49:36.640 --> 00:49:38.309 even need to know about the trinity to 00:49:38.319 --> 00:49:40.069 have the communication with God really 00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:41.589 even even all of the knowledge is 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:43.510 irrelevant but there was I suppose a 00:49:43.520 --> 00:49:44.870 point when it was just this elite 00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.829 stratum who were aware that this this 00:49:47.839 --> 00:49:49.670 might indeed be the correct way to 00:49:49.680 --> 00:49:51.910 envisage God and then in from all of 00:49:51.920 --> 00:49:54.150 these enormous debates and these uh sort 00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:56.710 of councils and so on this becomes the 00:49:56.720 --> 00:49:58.230 mainstream. Now you ask you know any 00:49:58.240 --> 00:50:00.309 Catholic in the in the street most 00:50:00.319 --> 00:50:02.470 Protestants so what about that trinity 00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:04.470 and they say well yes of course that's 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:06.710 we all know that. So I suppose that 00:50:06.720 --> 00:50:08.790 there is a function of sorts there. 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:10.549 Maybe one could argue that all the big 00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:12.870 the really big revelations have 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:14.390 >> been discovered. I mean I don't think 00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:15.670 we're going to get 00:50:15.680 --> 00:50:17.270 >> and perhaps you disagree but another 00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:20.069 sort of trinity scale reinvisioning of 00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:22.309 Christianity from the theologians that 00:50:22.319 --> 00:50:23.829 would then be more or less universally 00:50:23.839 --> 00:50:25.910 accepted. And again, maybe it's worth 00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:27.589 talking about. There are some, 00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:29.030 especially in the United States, 00:50:29.040 --> 00:50:30.390 Protestant movements that are 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:32.470 essentially Unitarian or or just 00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:34.650 avowedly unitarian. It has had a bit of 00:50:34.660 --> 00:50:35.750 [clears throat] a comeback. 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.910 >> Um, and that's interesting to to think 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:40.069 where that came from. But before getting 00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:42.069 into that, just the sense that at least 00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:44.069 early on the theologian had a real role 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:46.549 of discovering what this religion was, 00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:48.470 >> whereas I think today perhaps we have a 00:50:48.480 --> 00:50:51.990 slightly more solid grasp of it. Well, 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.069 you you don't have to narrate it quite 00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:56.549 that way because what you could say is 00:50:56.559 --> 00:50:58.309 the theologians along with everyone else 00:50:58.319 --> 00:51:01.589 were busy practicing the religion, 00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:03.190 saying the prayers, reading the 00:51:03.200 --> 00:51:05.829 scriptures, um having the sacramental 00:51:05.839 --> 00:51:08.309 life of the church, uh involved in the 00:51:08.319 --> 00:51:09.829 catechesis. 00:51:09.839 --> 00:51:11.510 And then someone came along and said, 00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:13.510 "This is the way the father relates to 00:51:13.520 --> 00:51:15.990 the son." And the theologian said, "Oh, 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.470 no, that's wrong. The the the side who 00:51:18.480 --> 00:51:19.829 went out and no, you've got something 00:51:19.839 --> 00:51:21.910 wrong. that's not that's not what was 00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.309 implied in the in everything we were 00:51:24.319 --> 00:51:27.190 practicing and reading. Um so we're just 00:51:27.200 --> 00:51:29.190 going to defend both sides thought they 00:51:29.200 --> 00:51:30.710 were defending the given faith. Not that 00:51:30.720 --> 00:51:32.790 they were discovering something new 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:34.790 >> and and because it was such a difficult 00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:36.630 thing the church had to come to a 00:51:36.640 --> 00:51:38.950 settlement on which is the right way to 00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:41.910 read it. So, so I think that, you know, 00:51:41.920 -->

00:51:44.069 even the ones that we now think they're 00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:45.990 the the ones who secured the doctrine of 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:47.750 the trinity would have seen themselves 00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:49.430 as 00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:51.910 just taking what was received and 00:51:51.920 --> 00:51:54.390 defending it against mistake. I'm 00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:57.430 curious about um what the uh the 00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:00.470 orthodoxy that that one out actually 00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:04.230 gives us um that would not have been 00:52:04.240 --> 00:52:06.309 there that would not have been available 00:52:06.319 --> 00:52:08.950 in aranism that would not be available 00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:11.030 in unitarianism because Jesus fulfills 00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:13.750 quite a lot of roles if you promote him 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:17.430 to the the highest creation the apex of 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:19.589 creation. He could still fulfill the 00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:22.470 role of being a bridge to the father. he 00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:24.069 could still fulfill the role of 00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:27.510 salvation. I'm curious what exactly 00:52:27.520 --> 00:52:30.549 >> making Jesus identical with God or the 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:33.670 same person or or a person in the same 00:52:33.680 --> 00:52:36.549 identity as God um 00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:38.390 >> gave to the church. 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.309 >> Yeah. Uh that's a very good question and 00:52:40.319 --> 00:52:43.030 I can ideally I would go away for two 00:52:43.040 --> 00:52:44.309 weeks and come back with a better answer 00:52:44.319 --> 00:52:46.470 but I'll I can give you some partial 00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:48.870 answers. Um so one thing that's really 00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:51.750 interesting is if if you followed the 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:54.069 Aryan and Jesus was the just the 00:52:54.079 --> 00:52:55.349 firstborn of all creation which is a 00:52:55.359 --> 00:52:57.190 scriptural text that's applied to him 00:52:57.200 --> 00:52:59.430 but so that you know the top creature or 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:00.950 the first creature through whom all the 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:02.790 other creatures were made you then have 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.790 an understanding of a kind of distance 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.710 which was more Greek I have to say but a 00:53:06.720 --> 00:53:09.750 distance between the father 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.150 and the creation such that the father 00:53:12.160 --> 00:53:14.230 couldn't act directly on the creation 00:53:14.240 --> 00:53:16.150 and needed this intermediary figure. So 00:53:16.160 --> 00:53:18.470 you've got this more stratified 00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.230 hierarchical structure where God is out 00:53:20.240 --> 00:53:22.790 of reach and we need this superman 00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.270 figure to mediate for us. M 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:27.829 >> if Jesus is fully divine then there's a 00:53:27.839 --> 00:53:30.630 fascinating um bit in Athanasius who is 00:53:30.640 --> 00:53:31.910 one of the defenders of what eventually 00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:34.230 became orthodoxy and I first understood 00:53:34.240 --> 00:53:35.349 this from a very good book by 00:53:35.359 --> 00:53:38.790 Khaledanios but where a key argument is 00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:40.710 are you saying that God could not work 00:53:40.720 --> 00:53:42.230 directly with creation that God is 00:53:42.240 --> 00:53:45.270 unable to be directly in touch uh with 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:46.710 us and is that why you need this 00:53:46.720 --> 00:53:48.870 intermediary figure so I think that to 00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.109 me that's very moving that there's not a 00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.829 half we don't we don't direct our 00:53:53.839 --> 00:53:56.790 devotion into a halfway figure when 00:53:56.800 --> 00:53:58.470 we're directing it to Jesus. He still is 00:53:58.480 --> 00:53:59.990 the root to the father, but he's also 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:01.829 fully divine. So that's point number 00:54:01.839 --> 00:54:03.990 one. And point number two, what you say 00:54:04.000 --> 00:54:05.270 about salvation is really helpful 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.069 because suppose we were saved by a 00:54:08.079 --> 00:54:10.390 Superman figure. I think it would be a 00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:13.589 really problematic well it depends on 00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:15.109 obviously there's lots of different ways 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:17.030 in which people think about the 00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:19.589 mechanism of salvation but if if God had 00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:23.829 to sacrifice had to demand the death of 00:54:23.839 --> 00:54:26.069 this intermediary figure to be 00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.390 reconciled 00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:30.950 um I don't I think that would put us in 00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:32.870 a bad position or put God in a bad 00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:37.270 position so it's it's like God Godself 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:39.589 uh came to share our life with us and 00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:44.150 came to take on our troubles um rather 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:46.790 than God sending an emissary who's 00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:49.589 beneath. So, so to me it seems a 00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:51.829 stronger doctrine of salvation 00:54:51.839 --> 00:54:54.390 >> if um if you've got this more 00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.510 paradoxical divine human figure in 00:54:57.520 --> 00:54:58.150 Christ. 00:54:58.160 --> 00:54:59.910 >> Yes. And it's a greater sacrifice as 00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:02.549 well. Obviously, if it's a fundamental 00:55:02.559 --> 00:55:05.109 part of his nature that walks among us 00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:05.990 and dies. 00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.309 >> Yeah. So, it's Yeah. 00:55:08.319 --> 00:55:10.470 >> Yeah. I wonder what um while you were 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:13.030 just describing uh the incarnation and 00:55:13.040 --> 00:55:15.990 God moving among us, it's it's 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:17.349

interesting to think about what's the 00:55:17.359 --> 00:55:19.589 difference between that relationship of 00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:22.790 God to the world and the the God who 00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:26.230 permeates all things anyway in which all 00:55:26.240 --> 00:55:27.750 things live and move and have their 00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:29.670 being. God's everywhere, has been 00:55:29.680 --> 00:55:32.549 everywhere forever. What makes the the 00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:34.309 incarnation 00:55:34.319 --> 00:55:36.710 um like different? He's he's on the 00:55:36.720 --> 00:55:38.710 earth, but he was always on the earth. 00:55:38.720 --> 00:55:40.790 He was saturating all things. 00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:43.349 >> Yeah. Yeah. It's an excellent 00:55:43.359 --> 00:55:46.790 theological question. I wonder whether 00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:49.750 I should say that um 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.430 by being united with humanity in that 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:56.309 particular concrete way, 00:55:56.319 --> 00:55:58.950 God experiences 00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.630 in the humanity the kind of limitations 00:56:02.640 --> 00:56:04.230 and vulnerability and death and 00:56:04.240 --> 00:56:08.390 suffering. Um there's a there's a more 00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:09.430 question. Do you want to say therefore 00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:10.789 God didn't know about those things 00:56:10.799 --> 00:56:12.150 beforehand? And I don't want to say 00:56:12.160 --> 00:56:13.750 about I don't want to say there was a 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:15.510 lack of knowledge in God that somehow 00:56:15.520 --> 00:56:17.670 gets fixed by the incarnation. 00:56:17.680 --> 00:56:19.829 >> I suppose it's a higher it's a sorry go 00:56:19.839 --> 00:56:20.230 ahead. 00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:21.349 >> I was going to say it's a felt 00:56:21.359 --> 00:56:23.030 knowledge. It's an embodied knowledge 00:56:23.040 --> 00:56:25.750 >> perhaps or it's a it's a it's a 00:56:25.760 --> 00:56:28.789 demonstrated solidarity with us. Um it's 00:56:28.799 --> 00:56:31.190 an enactment of solidarity. Yeah. 00:56:31.200 --> 00:56:33.109 thinking about a a theologian that I've 00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.589 worked a lot on Carl Roner. One one view 00:56:35.599 --> 00:56:38.630 that he would take is that and actually 00:56:38.640 --> 00:56:40.390 it goes all the way back to Duncotus in 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:42.150 the late middle ages that creation was 00:56:42.160 --> 00:56:44.309 the for the sake of the incarnation. So 00:56:44.319 --> 00:56:46.150 God 00:56:46.160 --> 00:56:48.230 brings into being that which is not God 00:56:48.240 --> 00:56:50.789 for the sake of being united with it. Um 00:56:50.799 --> 00:56:54.470 so upholds it. uh but the the the union 00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:56.789 between God and creation reaches at 00:56:56.799 --> 00:56:59.190 least a kind of symbolic peak or a 00:56:59.200 --> 00:57:02.710 temporary peak in this perfect union of 00:57:02.720 --> 00:57:03.990 the divine and human. 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.670 >> Yeah, I mean it's it's one of those 00:57:05.680 --> 00:57:08.630 enormous uh you can write a book about 00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:10.789 it questions. But yeah, just it it 00:57:10.799 --> 00:57:14.470 strikes me that um the the kind of 00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:18.710 intimacy that every um faith uh says 00:57:18.720 --> 00:57:22.789 that God has with the creation with um 00:57:22.799 --> 00:57:24.870 between the transcendent, the 00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:27.430 transcendent and the limited between the 00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:29.270 infinite and the finite. there's there's 00:57:29.280 --> 00:57:31.589 an intimate relationship there that I 00:57:31.599 --> 00:57:35.109 think is just a fundamental feeling in 00:57:35.119 --> 00:57:37.990 in just human nature that I think um is 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:41.910 is within us. And the special thing 00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:43.990 about Christianity 00:57:44.000 --> 00:57:47.750 that that God is is embodied and and um 00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.589 and dies and is 00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:53.670 yeah it it makes it makes the faith in 00:57:53.680 --> 00:57:56.710 some ways seem I it's quite I just I 00:57:56.720 --> 00:57:59.829 struggle to articulate the uniqueness 00:57:59.839 --> 00:58:03.109 there. What exactly is unique? And you 00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:05.510 can yeah like you did a good job of like 00:58:05.520 --> 00:58:07.510 trying to begin to describe it. It's is 00:58:07.520 --> 00:58:10.470 it the is it this the symbolic 00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:13.190 solidarity the felt sense I know in lots 00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:14.630 of languages there are multiple words 00:58:14.640 --> 00:58:17.990 for knowledge German among them um a 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:20.309 kind of knowledge that you have of of a 00:58:20.319 --> 00:58:23.349 person a kind of uh felt experiential 00:58:23.359 --> 00:58:26.710 knowledge um kenan which I would have 00:58:26.720 --> 00:58:29.190 about my mother or about a specific oh I 00:58:29.200 --> 00:58:31.109 know that shop I know that place and 00:58:31.119 --> 00:58:32.710 then a different kind of knowledge which 00:58:32.720 --> 00:58:35.910 is the the more intellectual one of viss 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:38.710 >> yeah I'm yeah I'm sort of hesitant to 00:58:38.720 --> 00:58:40.870 have to depict God as lacking any 00:58:40.880 --> 00:58:43.510 dimension of knowledge without needing 00:58:43.520 --> 00:58:45.589 the incarnation to have an understanding 00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:49.829 of creation and of humanity. But maybe 00:58:49.839 --> 00:58:52.069 we needed 00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:55.349 um God to be also with us in this way as 00:58:55.359 --> 00:58:58.230 well as present throughout everywhere. 00:58:58.240 --> 00:58:59.750 >> Uh there's something that makes a 00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.829 difference to us. So Aquinus does say 00:59:01.839 --> 00:59:04.150 that, you know, nothing changes for God, 00:59:04.160 --> 00:59:06.390 but something changes for us

through the 00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:08.950 incarnation. So yeah, you might you 00:59:08.960 --> 00:59:09.990 might go that way. 00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:11.910 >> I'd be interested to to bring it round 00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:14.150 to contradicting myself a little bit 00:59:14.160 --> 00:59:16.230 because earlier I said theologians got 00:59:16.240 --> 00:59:18.870 nothing left to say. It's over. The book 00:59:18.880 --> 00:59:21.430 is closed. Religion is complete. But of 00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.549 course in in your book you do mention uh 00:59:24.559 --> 00:59:28.230 new developments in trinitarian theology 00:59:28.240 --> 00:59:29.910 which have been over the last few 00:59:29.920 --> 00:59:33.190 decades bubbling around. And uh one of 00:59:33.200 --> 00:59:36.069 these is is what you refer to and it is 00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.190 known as social trinitarianism. Um which 00:59:39.200 --> 00:59:40.950 seems to be another in in the long list 00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:42.789 of quite interesting I suppose you could 00:59:42.799 --> 00:59:45.589 say analogies for the trinity. each one 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:48.309 apparently able to spawn an entire 00:59:48.319 --> 00:59:50.549 heresy because there seems to be no 00:59:50.559 --> 00:59:52.710 appropriate analogy. So whenever you see 00:59:52.720 --> 00:59:54.950 in some like a kind-hearted comment 00:59:54.960 --> 00:59:56.470 section someone saying oh no no the 00:59:56.480 --> 00:59:58.470 trinities you just think of it like this 00:59:58.480 --> 01:00:02.309 it's like a water ice and uh and and gas 01:00:02.319 --> 01:00:04.789 and then a thousand Catholics come down 01:00:04.799 --> 01:00:07.510 say you are exccommunicated from the 01:00:07.520 --> 01:00:10.309 church for modalism and every analogy 01:00:10.319 --> 01:00:12.150 has its own heresy attached to it and 01:00:12.160 --> 01:00:14.630 none seem to really work but then social 01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:17.030 trinitarianism seems perhaps the newest 01:00:17.040 --> 01:00:20.150 in this um in this array. So, so could 01:00:20.160 --> 01:00:22.630 you sort of define social trinitarianism 01:00:22.640 --> 01:00:24.710 and the way it differs from maybe the 01:00:24.720 --> 01:00:27.030 older school uh versions we're more 01:00:27.040 --> 01:00:27.750 familiar with? 01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:29.670 >> Well, there was this big upsurge, I 01:00:29.680 --> 01:00:31.109 don't know, 30 or 40 years ago. Lots of 01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:33.589 in everybody saying, "Oh, we we need to 01:00:33.599 --> 01:00:35.670 regain the relevance of the Trinity. We 01:00:35.680 --> 01:00:37.030 need to make it more central. People 01:00:37.040 --> 01:00:38.549 aren't paying enough attention to it." 01:00:38.559 --> 01:00:41.589 And then saying, "Look, the Trinity is 01:00:41.599 --> 01:00:44.069 like a perfect community." They took the 01:00:44.079 --> 01:00:47.109 analogy for the trinity not on there was 01:00:47.119 --> 01:00:49.430 one classic analogy that emerged

in St. 01:00:49.440 --> 01:00:51.190 Augustine's thought and was picked up in 01:00:51.200 --> 01:00:54.789 medieval thought a lot about the um the 01:00:54.799 --> 01:00:57.109 the memory 01:00:57.119 --> 01:00:59.190 the understanding in the will is like 01:00:59.200 --> 01:01:02.230 father son and holy spirit um and you 01:01:02.240 --> 01:01:05.349 know Augustine himself plays with this 01:01:05.359 --> 01:01:07.349 some scriptural reasons why he chose 01:01:07.359 --> 01:01:08.950 those words and then he undermines it as 01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:10.470 well but it does get a little bit 01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:12.470 hardened in medieval theology into okay 01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:14.630 this is this is how it works and so the 01:01:14.640 --> 01:01:17.750 analogy is the the different faculties 01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:20.069 or elements within one person the 01:01:20.079 --> 01:01:21.750 threeness is the different you know my 01:01:21.760 --> 01:01:22.789 memory is different from my 01:01:22.799 --> 01:01:24.470 understanding is different from my love 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.750 or whatever. Um and so then the other 01:01:27.760 --> 01:01:30.390 the social analogy is know it's several 01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:33.349 people who are so perfectly attuned to 01:01:33.359 --> 01:01:36.549 each other uh that they form a bond and 01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:38.470 they're one in a perfect communion. Like 01:01:38.480 --> 01:01:40.309 a more positive way of putting your 01:01:40.319 --> 01:01:41.829 point about what happens in the comments 01:01:41.839 --> 01:01:44.549 section is you know they're all equally 01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:45.910 good analogies and they're all equally 01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:47.030 bad. Like none of them will do 01:01:47.040 --> 01:01:48.150 everything. You shouldn't. There's 01:01:48.160 --> 01:01:51.270 nothing worse necessarily about the 01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:53.109 social analogy to the Trinity than to 01:01:53.119 --> 01:01:55.349 any other. But what was problematic to 01:01:55.359 --> 01:01:57.910 my mind was people getting so persuaded 01:01:57.920 --> 01:01:59.670 that this was the key answer. They had 01:01:59.680 --> 01:02:01.670 rediscovered the original doctrine of 01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:03.190 the Trinity. They they said, "Oh, this 01:02:03.200 --> 01:02:04.470 was always there on the, you know, on 01:02:04.480 --> 01:02:07.270 one side of the church in the Greek 01:02:07.280 --> 01:02:09.589 fathers and it got lost because of the 01:02:09.599 --> 01:02:11.030 Latin thinkers and now we've 01:02:11.040 --> 01:02:12.630 rediscovered it." And that turned out to 01:02:12.640 --> 01:02:14.470 be a bad historical claim once the 01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:17.510 historians went to work on it. Um but 01:02:17.520 --> 01:02:19.270 they said and we've got this great key 01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:21.510 to turns out the trinity is super 01:02:21.520 --> 01:02:24.150 relevant because we can figure out how 01:02:24.160 --> 01:02:28.309 to run

societies by saying it should be 01:02:28.319 --> 01:02:29.990 the way the one and the many works and 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.829 the trinity can be our road map for how 01:02:31.839 --> 01:02:33.349 the church should work and how society 01:02:33.359 --> 01:02:35.109 should work. And I literally once came 01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:38.549 across a guy giving a paper on how town 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:41.030 planning could be based on the social 01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:42.630 trinity and where you put your lights 01:02:42.640 --> 01:02:45.109 and streets and things. Um, so people 01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:46.549 got a bit carried away with their 01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:48.150 enthusiasm. 01:02:48.160 --> 01:02:50.549 Um, with that, 01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:52.789 uh, it's very preachable because it's 01:02:52.799 --> 01:02:54.789 it's a nice thing to be saying in a in a 01:02:54.799 --> 01:02:57.030 sermon or homaly. We as a community here 01:02:57.040 --> 01:02:59.270 in the church, we're just like the 01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:00.870 community of the persons of the trinity 01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:04.630 and it's graspable and people got a bit 01:03:04.640 --> 01:03:07.349 over excited by it for a while, I think. 01:03:07.359 --> 01:03:07.670 Yeah. 01:03:07.680 --> 01:03:09.030 >> Yeah. It's interesting that it's an 01:03:09.040 --> 01:03:11.589 innovation to imagine three persons as 01:03:11.599 --> 01:03:13.829 three people. the sort of like light 01:03:13.839 --> 01:03:16.069 bulb moment. Wait a second, three 01:03:16.079 --> 01:03:17.029 persons. 01:03:17.039 --> 01:03:17.349 >> Yeah. 01:03:17.359 --> 01:03:17.750 >> But um 01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:20.230 >> it's not it's not a complete innovation. 01:03:20.240 --> 01:03:23.430 Um there there was they claimed some 01:03:23.440 --> 01:03:25.270 precedent and then I think like someone 01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:27.829 like Yokim Fiori in the medieval period 01:03:27.839 --> 01:03:29.109 may have been doing something. Sorry I 01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:30.309 interrupted you but it's not a complete 01:03:30.319 --> 01:03:32.950 innovation but yeah they thought oh 01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:34.309 we've got to the heart of it and it was 01:03:34.319 --> 01:03:35.510 just that they thought it had just been 01:03:35.520 --> 01:03:37.109 obscured by things going wrong with 01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:39.589 Augustine. Um yeah. 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:41.270 >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I take, you know, as 01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.670 as consequence of that that you don't 01:03:43.680 --> 01:03:45.670 necessarily see the Trinity or what we 01:03:45.680 --> 01:03:47.270 understand it to be or what we don't 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:49.750 understand it to be as really suitable 01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:53.510 as a mirror for ideal society or sort of 01:03:53.520 --> 01:03:55.510 okay, we need to sort of mirror all 01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:59.910 thought and activity on this notion. And 01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:01.510 I I sort of agree that that sounds like 01:04:01.520 --> 01:04:03.029 a very difficult thing to do, especially 01:04:03.039 --> 01:04:04.710 as it gets caught in the weeds and you 01:04:04.720 --> 01:04:06.710 wonder, you know, how do I plan a town 01:04:06.720 --> 01:04:09.910 based on three uh people who like each 01:04:09.920 --> 01:04:12.470 other to the point of of symbiosis, I I 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:14.069 don't know really what that means for 01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:16.549 the light fixtures. But um if we can't 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:18.630 therefore use the trinity to plan our 01:04:18.640 --> 01:04:22.470 towns or to maybe dictate moral law, 01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:25.589 what is the use of it as as something to 01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.309 study, as something to contemplate? What 01:04:28.319 --> 01:04:30.470 is why should the average Christian not 01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:31.670 say, "All right, I believe in the 01:04:31.680 --> 01:04:33.109 Trinity, but I'm I'm never going to 01:04:33.119 --> 01:04:35.670 think about it and essentially live 01:04:35.680 --> 01:04:37.270 functionally speaking as though it were 01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:39.829 unitarian." As though, yeah, there's God 01:04:39.839 --> 01:04:41.750 with these names, but I'm not going to 01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:43.670 Why should that Christian actually think 01:04:43.680 --> 01:04:46.150 deeply about it not being unitarian? 01:04:46.160 --> 01:04:48.309 It's not a unitary. It is a trinity. 01:04:48.319 --> 01:04:49.990 >> Like, I think one thing that the average 01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:51.589 Christian should feel no obligation to 01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:53.270 think deeply about is, you know, how are 01:04:53.280 --> 01:04:54.950 the three one and how can I picture it 01:04:54.960 --> 01:04:56.789 and what's the best analogy? think of 01:04:56.799 --> 01:04:57.829 course people are going to think about 01:04:57.839 --> 01:04:59.109 it but I don't think it matters too much 01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:01.990 if they don't get too far but it seems 01:05:02.000 --> 01:05:04.950 to me I think that the average 01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:09.270 reasonably well reasonably kind of um 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:11.510 taught Christian or or who's practicing 01:05:11.520 --> 01:05:15.349 in in fairly ordinary ways will feel 01:05:15.359 --> 01:05:16.950 ideally that they have some relationship 01:05:16.960 --> 01:05:19.190 to Jesus like Jesus will play some role 01:05:19.200 --> 01:05:20.789 in their 01:05:20.799 --> 01:05:24.390 >> spiritual life and they might quite like 01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:26.150 the idea that the spirit moves moves in 01:05:26.160 --> 01:05:29.109 them and that the spirit helps them 01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:31.430 understand things or guides them or is 01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:35.190 source of grace in difficulty 01:05:35.200 --> 01:05:37.750 and they might have a relation to the 01:05:37.760 --> 01:05:39.990 father think about god as father towards 01:05:40.000 --> 01:05:43.589 whom all things go so it

doesn't 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:46.710 although that like the average Christian 01:05:46.720 --> 01:05:48.470 is 01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:50.390 doesn't need to sit there studying the 01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:51.750 technicalities of the doctrine of 01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:54.470 trinity I think 01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:57.589 at best they're already living with and 01:05:57.599 --> 01:05:59.270 engaging with and believing in the 01:05:59.280 --> 01:06:02.950 doctrine of the Trinity by, 01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:05.190 you know, I mean, you could get some 01:06:05.200 --> 01:06:06.950 one-sided versions of Christianity where 01:06:06.960 --> 01:06:08.549 it's just a distinct God and they never 01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:09.910 think of anything else or where it's 01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:11.910 just Jesusology and Jesus is my friend 01:06:11.920 --> 01:06:13.430 and that's all I ever think about. But 01:06:13.440 --> 01:06:15.349 in a in a kind of well- balanced version 01:06:15.359 --> 01:06:18.230 of Christianity, the Holy Spirit and 01:06:18.240 --> 01:06:20.309 Jesus and the Father are all playing a 01:06:20.319 --> 01:06:21.990 role. So people are already trinitarian, 01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:23.670 they just don't know it. That's that's 01:06:23.680 --> 01:06:28.470 my my instinct. So um it's like you know 01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:30.549 people come and tell you very specific 01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:33.270 things about how to breathe well and but 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:34.710 you know how to breathe before they tell 01:06:34.720 --> 01:06:36.630 you that your diaphragm is involved or 01:06:36.640 --> 01:06:38.789 that this has to expand or 01:06:38.799 --> 01:06:40.789 >> that you you should do it in this you 01:06:40.799 --> 01:06:43.750 might be able to breathe better but so I 01:06:43.760 --> 01:06:45.829 think in ordinarily formed Christians 01:06:45.839 --> 01:06:47.750 they're they're already trinitarian in 01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:49.670 the way they 01:06:49.680 --> 01:06:52.230 in in their practice they're puzzled by 01:06:52.240 --> 01:06:54.549 the doctrine of the trinity 01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:57.109 but But it doesn't really matter if they 01:06:57.119 --> 01:07:00.950 if um if they have those components that 01:07:00.960 --> 01:07:02.470 pattern going on, I guess. 01:07:02.480 --> 01:07:04.230 >> Yeah. And this brings to mind the 01:07:04.240 --> 01:07:05.910 abnormally formed Christians. And 01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:07.750 perhaps you you might not know so much 01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:09.829 about this, but I do wonder about these 01:07:09.839 --> 01:07:11.270 Protestant groups, particularly in 01:07:11.280 --> 01:07:13.510 America, who have either returned to a 01:07:13.520 --> 01:07:15.670 unitary form of thinking, some of whom 01:07:15.680 --> 01:07:17.990 didn't even realize that that, you know, 01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.870 the trinity was composed in the way it 01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:22.950 is in in other parts of Christianity. 01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:24.950 Um, is this a sort of a a historical 01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:27.270 development we can trace? Would we 01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:29.029 suppose that these Christians are kind 01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:31.990 of essentially experiencing a trinity 01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:34.309 that they nonetheless their preaching 01:07:34.319 --> 01:07:36.230 doesn't align with? 01:07:36.240 --> 01:07:38.309 >> Um, yeah. How do we explain this sort of 01:07:38.319 --> 01:07:40.710 come back to Aryan? I know Aryanism 01:07:40.720 --> 01:07:43.349 existed in Europe in various guises for 01:07:43.359 --> 01:07:44.870 many many centuries after it was 01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:46.870 apparently snuffed out, but I think this 01:07:46.880 --> 01:07:49.109 American version feels like a more 01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:50.870 recent apparition. 01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.870 >> I I don't know enough. I probably can't 01:07:52.880 --> 01:07:53.990 answer that. I don't know enough about 01:07:54.000 --> 01:07:55.349 what's happening, what's bubbling around 01:07:55.359 --> 01:07:56.789 recently in America. I mean, when I was 01:07:56.799 --> 01:07:58.630 young, there were definitely when I was 01:07:58.640 --> 01:08:00.309 in America, there were definitely, you 01:08:00.319 --> 01:08:01.990 know, Unitarians were around. They were 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:06.630 fairly small, but they are practicing, 01:08:06.640 --> 01:08:08.470 by my understanding, they they've 01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:09.990 rejected something that other Christians 01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:11.510 are taking as central, so they're 01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:13.750 practicing something somewhat different. 01:08:13.760 --> 01:08:15.270 But I don't know enough to know whether 01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.669 there's still an implicit trinitarianism 01:08:17.679 --> 01:08:19.829 underneath. I imagine there's quite a 01:08:19.839 --> 01:08:22.149 bit of variety. Um, you know, as with 01:08:22.159 --> 01:08:24.470 Quakers, there's there's a lot of 01:08:24.480 --> 01:08:26.309 variety in what the Quakers actually 01:08:26.319 --> 01:08:31.030 hang on to or profess or what. Yeah. Um, 01:08:31.040 --> 01:08:32.870 I think that there was a Unitarianism 01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:34.229 around the time of the Reformation. It's 01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:36.070 been around explicitly, not just as 01:08:36.080 --> 01:08:37.749 aranism, but as Unitarianism for a 01:08:37.759 --> 01:08:39.030 while, but if it's growing again in the 01:08:39.040 --> 01:08:40.950 US, it would be interesting to know what 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:42.709 are people reacting against? What do 01:08:42.719 --> 01:08:45.030 they dislike? What do they My question 01:08:45.040 --> 01:08:46.390 would be what is it that it's giving 01:08:46.400 --> 01:08:48.390 them? you know, are they are they 01:08:48.400 --> 01:08:50.070 distressed with historic Christianity 01:08:50.080 --> 01:08:51.669 because of abuses and so on and think 01:08:51.679 --> 01:08:53.349 we're going to

remake it this but I just 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:54.229 don't know. 01:08:54.239 --> 01:08:56.070 >> Yeah, it's probably not the numbers, is 01:08:56.080 --> 01:08:57.510 it? It's probably it would be a big 01:08:57.520 --> 01:08:59.669 surprise if it was the I just couldn't 01:08:59.679 --> 01:09:03.110 get past the the illogical mathematical 01:09:03.120 --> 01:09:03.430 uh 01:09:03.440 --> 01:09:03.910 >> Yeah. 01:09:04.960 --> 01:09:06.550 >> There's lots of it. Yeah, 01:09:06.560 --> 01:09:09.110 >> it might be, for instance, it might be, 01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:10.550 and I'm just speculating because again, 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:13.110 I haven't followed this trend in the US, 01:09:13.120 --> 01:09:15.349 but it might be 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:17.030 something about not liking to think 01:09:17.040 --> 01:09:18.950 you've got a more true religion than 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.749 others. So, unitarianism you might feel 01:09:21.759 --> 01:09:23.430 is more compatible with lots of other 01:09:23.440 --> 01:09:25.110 belief systems, whereas if you believe 01:09:25.120 --> 01:09:27.430 in a unique incarnation, 01:09:27.440 --> 01:09:30.950 uh, then you're 01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:32.550 you might worry that you're less all 01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:34.470 embracing of lots of different systems. 01:09:34.480 --> 01:09:35.910 So, I guess I could imagine that being 01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:38.309 an appeal of Unitarianism. 01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:40.070 >> Yeah. I suppose the the appeal to common 01:09:40.080 --> 01:09:42.470 sense as well, the appeal of like earthy 01:09:42.480 --> 01:09:44.550 salt of the earth. I just figuring 01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:46.070 things out on my own. 01:09:46.080 --> 01:09:46.470 >> Yeah. 01:09:46.480 --> 01:09:48.390 >> Um there's there's a certain appeal of 01:09:48.400 --> 01:09:51.189 that as well. I'm I'm interested in this 01:09:51.199 --> 01:09:52.709 uh question that was coming up when you 01:09:52.719 --> 01:09:57.430 were um describing um pe the people and 01:09:57.440 --> 01:10:00.470 and social uh social readings of 01:10:00.480 --> 01:10:02.950 trinitarianism. The different kinds of 01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:06.310 unknowability we have in life. So you 01:10:06.320 --> 01:10:07.990 have the complexity of an individual 01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:11.590 person that is really difficult to to 01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:14.310 fully know. you can't really fully know 01:10:14.320 --> 01:10:17.910 just am among ourselves what's going on 01:10:17.920 --> 01:10:19.910 inside the other person. There's always 01:10:19.920 --> 01:10:22.470 a bit of a a bridge to be crossed even 01:10:22.480 --> 01:10:25.350 with someone who you've uh lived with 01:10:25.360 --> 01:10:29.350 for you know most of your life. Um 01:10:29.360 --> 01:10:33.830 there's certain kinds of of empathy that 01:10:33.840 --> 01:10:37.110 are impossible like a total 100% I am in 01:10:37.120 --> 01:10:39.669 your head. I know what's going on. I I 01:10:39.679 -->

01:10:42.950 am feeling your life as you feel it. Um 01:10:42.960 --> 01:10:44.790 complexity and I wonder what the 01:10:44.800 --> 01:10:47.510 difference is between between that kind 01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:49.590 of unknowability 01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:52.390 and the kind of unknowability we ascribe 01:10:52.400 --> 01:10:54.070 to God. 01:10:54.080 --> 01:10:55.990 >> Yeah, my my thoughts are going off in 01:10:56.000 --> 01:10:57.590 multiple directions at once. So I might 01:10:57.600 --> 01:10:59.430 not give a coherent answer here. But one 01:10:59.440 --> 01:11:02.149 thing that one might want to say is that 01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:04.149 if humans are made in the image of God, 01:11:04.159 --> 01:11:05.990 then you would expect you might expect 01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:07.910 us to share in the mystery of God. So we 01:11:07.920 --> 01:11:10.229 might reflect or reflect the 01:11:10.239 --> 01:11:13.030 unknowability of God in in our own in 01:11:13.040 --> 01:11:16.229 our own ways. I guess that where one has 01:11:16.239 --> 01:11:18.470 some halfway hope of like I can't 01:11:18.480 --> 01:11:20.149 completely be empathic and I don't 01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:21.110 really know what's going on in your 01:11:21.120 --> 01:11:23.350 head. But if I if I as I do get to know 01:11:23.360 --> 01:11:24.709 you, I know a bit of what's going on in 01:11:24.719 --> 01:11:27.350 your head. I can empathize a bit. And I 01:11:27.360 --> 01:11:31.110 think that kind of well I'm 70% there 01:11:31.120 --> 01:11:33.110 but I can't do the last 30% or I kind of 01:11:33.120 --> 01:11:36.149 know but I have to it maybe we don't 01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:37.990 like I'm quite suspicious when I find a 01:11:38.000 --> 01:11:39.669 theologian writing about what's going on 01:11:39.679 --> 01:11:42.709 in God's thinking uh and planning or you 01:11:42.719 --> 01:11:44.870 know how things feel or how God reacts 01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:48.790 like I think that um as I understand the 01:11:48.800 --> 01:11:50.630 best theology it blocks off a lot of the 01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:52.229 ways in which we might talk about God 01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:53.830 the way we talk about another person. So 01:11:53.840 --> 01:11:55.990 if if if God is mystery, you'd expect 01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:58.310 people to be mysterious as well. But 01:11:58.320 --> 01:11:59.830 there's a more radical unknowability 01:11:59.840 --> 01:12:01.510 about God that we can't just empathize 01:12:01.520 --> 01:12:03.350 our way into if I were God, this is how 01:12:03.360 --> 01:12:04.870 I would feel about the way the world is 01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.350 going. You know, yeah, we one does feel 01:12:07.360 --> 01:12:11.590 that sometimes, but to claim to have the 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:13.270 to have the feeling for what's going on 01:12:13.280 --> 01:12:14.790 inside God's head, even to the degree 01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:16.630 that you might have it for for someone 01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:18.229 else

seems troubling to me. And then the 01:12:18.239 --> 01:12:20.630 third part of my answer would be the 01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:22.149 specific 01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:25.430 points about the the the limits of what 01:12:25.440 --> 01:12:26.790 we can get to when you come to the 01:12:26.800 --> 01:12:28.470 doctrine of the trinity in particular. 01:12:28.480 --> 01:12:31.510 There's another kind of um it's another 01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:34.470 kind of hitting against the wall in 01:12:34.480 --> 01:12:36.390 understanding that we're that God is so 01:12:36.400 --> 01:12:37.830 mysterious that we're led to have to say 01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:40.070 things that we we can feel that we don't 01:12:40.080 --> 01:12:41.590 know how to put together that we don't 01:12:41.600 --> 01:12:43.510 know how to synthesize. And I guess 01:12:43.520 --> 01:12:44.870 sometimes you meet that with other 01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:47.430 people like especially like in terrible 01:12:47.440 --> 01:12:50.229 cases if someone turns out to have been 01:12:50.239 --> 01:12:52.149 both a loving spouse and a terrible 01:12:52.159 --> 01:12:53.910 abuser and and you wouldn't know how to 01:12:53.920 --> 01:12:55.189 put that together. But you don't really 01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:56.470 want to use that as your analogy for 01:12:56.480 --> 01:12:57.669 God. But there I mean I suppose there 01:12:57.679 --> 01:12:59.110 are times when we have to know two 01:12:59.120 --> 01:13:02.310 things about someone and we really don't 01:13:02.320 --> 01:13:05.270 know how to combine them. But 01:13:05.280 --> 01:13:06.630 >> yeah, the trinity does seem to be a 01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:09.270 worse case of not knowing. 01:13:09.280 --> 01:13:11.669 And you you said like just just off hand 01:13:11.679 --> 01:13:14.149 you can know maybe 70% about what's 01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:15.590 going on in someone's head in the best 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:17.350 case. Are we saying like the the 01:13:17.360 --> 01:13:20.070 knowledge of God is stuck at 0% forever 01:13:20.080 --> 01:13:23.030 or it bleeps up to like you know 01:13:23.040 --> 01:13:27.110 minuscule fractions of a 5% or whatever. 01:13:27.120 --> 01:13:29.270 >> Yeah I as I was saying the 70% I thought 01:13:29.280 --> 01:13:30.709 oh this is a disaster I shouldn't have 01:13:30.719 --> 01:13:34.470 said that. Um the [laughter] 01:13:34.480 --> 01:13:37.830 I think so if you're operating within a 01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:41.030 tradition uh then you say you know 01:13:41.040 --> 01:13:42.470 within the Christian tradition or within 01:13:42.480 --> 01:13:44.550 the Jewish tradition then you know you 01:13:44.560 --> 01:13:48.149 might feel you you don't know nothing 01:13:48.159 --> 01:13:50.870 because you know that God wants you to 01:13:50.880 --> 01:13:53.189 to honor the stranger and look out for 01:13:53.199 --> 01:13:55.030 the widow and the orphan and to love 01:13:55.040 --> 01:13:57.910 your neighbor and so that that God is 01:13:57.920

--> 01:14:00.070 love. You can't imagine your way into 01:14:00.080 --> 01:14:02.229 what it feels like to be God. But we do 01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:04.310 we do have all these signals of the kind 01:14:04.320 --> 01:14:06.709 of orientation of God towards the least 01:14:06.719 --> 01:14:10.390 and the most vulnerable and um towards 01:14:10.400 --> 01:14:12.229 you know 01:14:12.239 --> 01:14:14.470 justice and mercy shall kiss or whatever 01:14:14.480 --> 01:14:15.990 that line in the Psalms is which I can 01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:17.910 never remember. We have we have one kind 01:14:17.920 --> 01:14:19.270 of knowledge and it's actually quite 01:14:19.280 --> 01:14:22.950 rich but it's not um it's a different 01:14:22.960 --> 01:14:25.669 kind of knowledge than 01:14:25.679 --> 01:14:27.189 feeling your way into someone you know 01:14:27.199 --> 01:14:28.709 walking in someone else's shoes feeling 01:14:28.719 --> 01:14:30.229 your way into their perspective to some 01:14:30.239 --> 01:14:31.830 degree. 01:14:31.840 --> 01:14:34.950 >> Yeah. And it makes me just wonder about 01:14:34.960 --> 01:14:37.189 knowledge as a pursuit and limitations 01:14:37.199 --> 01:14:39.110 on knowledge as a pursuit. Not merely 01:14:39.120 --> 01:14:40.709 capable knowledge which is to say what 01:14:40.719 --> 01:14:43.110 we can contain in our brains but what we 01:14:43.120 --> 01:14:45.030 ought to try to contain in our brains. I 01:14:45.040 --> 01:14:47.350 think to the book of Job where you know 01:14:47.360 --> 01:14:50.790 there's the great speech in which God is 01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:53.030 you know sees even the notion of you you 01:14:53.040 --> 01:14:56.070 can't even imagine this you ought not to 01:14:56.080 --> 01:14:58.550 seek it even if you could this is you 01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:01.110 know we are so far apart and then I go 01:15:01.120 --> 01:15:03.750 to sort of Greek myth where Zeus reveals 01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:06.950 himself in full uh full color to Sle and 01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:09.590 then she's sort of obliterated by the 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:11.510 knowledge by the experience of it and 01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:13.430 that the stopper isn't simply an 01:15:13.440 --> 01:15:16.709 inferiority thing necessarily and and 01:15:16.719 --> 01:15:18.709 there's in in Ecclesiastes I mean you 01:15:18.719 --> 01:15:20.390 see it everywhere but that increaseth 01:15:20.400 --> 01:15:22.950 the knowledge increase the sorrow this 01:15:22.960 --> 01:15:24.470 thing you hear constantly but I think 01:15:24.480 --> 01:15:27.030 this is one of the hardest things of all 01:15:27.040 --> 01:15:29.189 to preach to anyone because I think you 01:15:29.199 --> 01:15:31.430 know humans are are naturally very 01:15:31.440 --> 01:15:33.110 curious we sort of want to know 01:15:33.120 --> 01:15:34.390 everything everything we can get our 01:15:34.400 --> 01:15:37.350 brains on we like to insert it in and 01:15:37.360 --> 01:15:40.149 it's very easy to know something a lot 01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:42.550 harder to unknow it you know once a fact 01:15:42.560 --> 01:15:46.390 is is true to extract it is basically 01:15:46.400 --> 01:15:48.950 impossible. And you know, maybe this is 01:15:48.960 --> 01:15:51.590 somehow related. But but can we really 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:54.390 in good conscious preach an idea which 01:15:54.400 --> 01:15:57.590 is to say know an amount but don't go 01:15:57.600 --> 01:15:59.910 too far or don't go in this direction or 01:15:59.920 --> 01:16:02.070 don't seek this answer because even if 01:16:02.080 --> 01:16:04.229 you were to somehow sort of force it 01:16:04.239 --> 01:16:06.870 into your skull, it wouldn't be good. 01:16:06.880 --> 01:16:09.270 And you can see I mean in a very maybe a 01:16:09.280 --> 01:16:11.750 corrupt and and and scattered way but 01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:16.229 the Edypus story is about you know there 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:18.149 there was a reality where not knowing 01:16:18.159 --> 01:16:19.669 was better even though you were already 01:16:19.679 --> 01:16:21.669 in a kind of heenous situation it only 01:16:21.679 --> 01:16:24.550 became more heinenous. It is a fable 01:16:24.560 --> 01:16:26.470 against knowledge 01:16:26.480 --> 01:16:27.990 >> which again it goes against every 01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:29.270 instinct. If you want to know, just like 01:16:29.280 --> 01:16:31.030 Ed of us needed to know, even though it 01:16:31.040 --> 01:16:33.430 was destructive, but but how what can we 01:16:33.440 --> 01:16:35.590 do with that just as a notion just to, 01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:37.830 you know, do not know, do not seek to 01:16:37.840 --> 01:16:40.229 know. Not knowing is better for some 01:16:40.239 --> 01:16:41.030 things. 01:16:41.040 --> 01:16:42.790 >> Yeah. 01:16:42.800 --> 01:16:44.310 Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't thought of that 01:16:44.320 --> 01:16:45.750 angle before, but I really like it. I 01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:47.350 need to go away and think about it more. 01:16:47.360 --> 01:16:49.430 I think it's it's really interesting. I 01:16:49.440 --> 01:16:52.470 think there's a sense of of, you know, 01:16:52.480 --> 01:16:54.149 take off your shoes, you're standing on 01:16:54.159 --> 01:16:56.070 holy ground, 01:16:56.080 --> 01:16:58.550 the fire, the bush is burning. Um, 01:16:58.560 --> 01:17:03.189 there's a sense of caution and being 01:17:03.199 --> 01:17:05.750 that God is not just one thing to be 01:17:05.760 --> 01:17:07.990 known among others. I mean, your point 01:17:08.000 --> 01:17:09.669 is true more generally about things we 01:17:09.679 --> 01:17:10.790 shouldn't know. So, I was thinking, what 01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:12.550 if you asked AI which of you was more 01:17:12.560 --> 01:17:14.870 famous? That would be a bad idea 01:17:14.880 --> 01:17:16.310 probably, unless it's already obvious 01:17:16.320 --> 01:17:17.590 which of you is more famous, but a bad 01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:19.350 idea. you you would then not be

able to 01:17:19.360 --> 01:17:21.830 unknow AI's reading of which of you had 01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:24.950 had a bigger impact or or something. So 01:17:24.960 --> 01:17:27.110 like interpersonally there are things 01:17:27.120 --> 01:17:28.950 where our respect for the relationship 01:17:28.960 --> 01:17:30.950 to the other means there are things we 01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:32.790 don't want to know like we don't want to 01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:35.669 know every nasty thought our partner has 01:17:35.679 --> 01:17:37.750 ever had about us probably like it would 01:17:37.760 --> 01:17:39.990 give us ammunition. I I don't know. 01:17:40.000 --> 01:17:42.229 There's a there's a kind of um there's a 01:17:42.239 --> 01:17:44.550 kind of delicacy that's appropriate 01:17:44.560 --> 01:17:46.550 interpersonally about what you want to 01:17:46.560 --> 01:17:47.990 know and what you don't want to know and 01:17:48.000 --> 01:17:50.390 and maybe so maybe the the restriction 01:17:50.400 --> 01:17:53.350 of the curiosity is out of respect for 01:17:53.360 --> 01:17:56.310 the relationship that you have and not 01:17:56.320 --> 01:17:58.070 wanting to damage it and so there are 01:17:58.080 --> 01:17:59.270 some things that you do want to know for 01:17:59.280 --> 01:18:00.630 the sake of relationships but the other 01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:02.149 things where delicacy blocks you and 01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:03.830 similarly 01:18:03.840 --> 01:18:06.070 there's a sense of trespassing on you 01:18:06.080 --> 01:18:07.990 know towards idolatry and trying to know 01:18:08.000 --> 01:18:11.110 in the wrong way about God or or just 01:18:11.120 --> 01:18:15.030 overshooting your proper place. Um Yeah. 01:18:15.040 --> 01:18:16.390 >> Yeah. And it makes me think of, you 01:18:16.400 --> 01:18:18.149 know, all the way in Eden, just the the 01:18:18.159 --> 01:18:20.470 tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 01:18:20.480 --> 01:18:22.310 There is just this association between 01:18:22.320 --> 01:18:24.229 knowledge, just knowing something, just 01:18:24.239 --> 01:18:26.630 being aware of something and the fall 01:18:26.640 --> 01:18:29.270 and original sin. It really does seem 01:18:29.280 --> 01:18:32.310 built in, not systematically per se, but 01:18:32.320 --> 01:18:34.229 there and it is just having it in your 01:18:34.239 --> 01:18:36.149 brain. It's not doing anything with it. 01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:38.070 That's the crucial thing. you know, Eve 01:18:38.080 --> 01:18:40.470 and Adam, they don't do anything 01:18:40.480 --> 01:18:42.229 acquiring this knowledge immediately. 01:18:42.239 --> 01:18:43.990 Obviously, there's there's a fallout 01:18:44.000 --> 01:18:46.470 implied in the text, but it's it's just 01:18:46.480 --> 01:18:48.149 having it consciously. 01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:48.870 >> Yeah. 01:18:48.880 --> 01:18:50.950 >> Having forced the thing in there that 01:18:50.960 --> 01:18:52.630 didn't belong in there or that that is 01:18:52.640 --> 01:18:54.870 negative to know all of good and all of 01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:56.550 evil. 01:18:56.560 --> 01:18:59.110 >> Whereas mankind seems designed to have 01:18:59.120 --> 01:19:01.990 limited knowledge of certain things. An 01:19:02.000 --> 01:19:04.229 expansive, you know, huge library of 01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:06.470 information. But by design, by 01:19:06.480 --> 01:19:09.750 definition, not all information. And we 01:19:09.760 --> 01:19:11.669 sort of carve our own personal paths 01:19:11.679 --> 01:19:13.510 through the mass of data that the 01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:15.910 universe is comprised of, knowing really 01:19:15.920 --> 01:19:17.750 that that we'll only ever get a small 01:19:17.760 --> 01:19:20.229 percentage of what is there. And perhaps 01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:21.189 there is 01:19:21.199 --> 01:19:23.510 >> some kind of hubristic sin in in the 01:19:23.520 --> 01:19:25.590 notion of total knowledge. And to know 01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:27.830 God would be total knowledge. It must be 01:19:27.840 --> 01:19:28.870 necessarily 01:19:28.880 --> 01:19:31.830 >> fou. Yeah. 01:19:31.840 --> 01:19:34.550 >> And yeah. So there's some kind of growth 01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:36.310 in discernment and wisdom that you would 01:19:36.320 --> 01:19:37.990 want about what is the knowledge I need, 01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:39.510 where should I go next, where should I 01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:42.470 stay away from what would be distraction 01:19:42.480 --> 01:19:45.189 or trespass onto whether onto you know 01:19:45.199 --> 01:19:46.630 what should be known about God or what 01:19:46.640 --> 01:19:48.470 should be known about my fellow human 01:19:48.480 --> 01:19:52.470 beings or um yeah it's very interesting 01:19:52.480 --> 01:19:53.750 strand of thought which I haven't 01:19:53.760 --> 01:19:56.390 pursued before. So thank you. I was 01:19:56.400 --> 01:19:59.030 thinking to to to like the the birth of 01:19:59.040 --> 01:20:02.070 the sciences which is also at one time 01:20:02.080 --> 01:20:05.590 historically was another field of uh not 01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:07.510 even today we have this attitude towards 01:20:07.520 --> 01:20:09.030 science there are some things we just 01:20:09.040 --> 01:20:11.270 shouldn't know like if we're going to 01:20:11.280 --> 01:20:14.310 we're going to create uh whatever 01:20:14.320 --> 01:20:17.030 generative whatever the specific AI 01:20:17.040 --> 01:20:21.430 thing is um CSI CGI it might destroy the 01:20:21.440 --> 01:20:24.709 world but we got to do it um I I that 01:20:24.719 --> 01:20:26.709 attitude and frankly Frankenstein myth. 01:20:26.719 --> 01:20:28.790 But I know like the the roots of science 01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:30.310 in Europe, it's like coming from 01:20:30.320 --> 01:20:32.870 alchemy. And alchemy I think is like 01:20:32.880 --> 01:20:35.669 ethmologically means like from the 01:20:35.679 --> 01:20:38.070 hidden of hidden things, 01:20:38.080 --> 01:20:41.750 >> right? Um and I wonder

whether you see a 01:20:41.760 --> 01:20:44.630 kind of difference between uh scientific 01:20:44.640 --> 01:20:47.110 mysteries that can be made in 01:20:47.120 --> 01:20:50.310 intelligible and relevant to us like 01:20:50.320 --> 01:20:52.709 open questions in mathematics for 01:20:52.719 --> 01:20:55.110 instance from these mysteries that 01:20:55.120 --> 01:20:58.149 cannot be made intelligible or relevant 01:20:58.159 --> 01:21:00.790 without perverting their nature such as 01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:01.590 the trinity. 01:21:01.600 --> 01:21:05.030 >> I think so. So sometimes some early 20th 01:21:05.040 --> 01:21:06.310 century thinkers distinguish between 01:21:06.320 --> 01:21:08.070 mysteries and puzzles. So the puzzle is 01:21:08.080 --> 01:21:09.510 the thing you haven't solved yet. In 01:21:09.520 --> 01:21:11.430 open question mathematics, every now and 01:21:11.440 --> 01:21:14.390 then one gets solved. Fair theorem is 01:21:14.400 --> 01:21:18.870 proven. Um the four color theorem is 01:21:18.880 --> 01:21:22.310 proven. Um so it's not intrinsic 01:21:22.320 --> 01:21:23.830 mystery. It's just a matter of we're not 01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:25.430 there yet. We don't know yet and there's 01:21:25.440 --> 01:21:28.630 no reason we shouldn't couldn't go. And 01:21:28.640 --> 01:21:31.750 to me the kind of it would be wrong to 01:21:31.760 --> 01:21:34.390 think that in general God is mystery is 01:21:34.400 --> 01:21:36.070 something to be overcome by us and then 01:21:36.080 --> 01:21:37.990 we'll we'll we'll get over it because 01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:40.550 the I guess the mysteriousness of God is 01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:42.310 part of the way we're related to God. So 01:21:42.320 --> 01:21:46.070 to to it would we God cannot be 01:21:46.080 --> 01:21:49.030 something that we you know dominate and 01:21:49.040 --> 01:21:51.510 manage and solve. Um that would put us 01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:53.510 in the wrong relation to God. the fact 01:21:53.520 --> 01:21:55.110 that I don't think that we're gonna 01:21:55.120 --> 01:21:57.910 similarly um you know find the perfect 01:21:57.920 --> 01:21:59.430 analogy for the doctrine of the trinity 01:21:59.440 --> 01:22:00.950 and really get to the point where we 01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:04.149 understand the three in one. 01:22:04.159 --> 01:22:05.430 You it could be that you could 01:22:05.440 --> 01:22:06.629 understand the doctrine of the trinity 01:22:06.639 --> 01:22:08.310 and God would still be a mystery in 01:22:08.320 --> 01:22:10.470 Godself even if you understood how the 01:22:10.480 --> 01:22:12.550 persons related. But but it seems like 01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:15.030 we've tried so hard and we've keep 01:22:15.040 --> 01:22:19.110 failing. And um and also 01:22:19.120 --> 01:22:20.870 it's not that we don't have the doctrine 01:22:20.880 --> 01:22:22.950 of the trinity as a piece of speculative 01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:25.270 knowledge. That's not its role. Um it 01:22:25.280 --> 01:22:28.070

wasn't that people set out saying I want 01:22:28.080 --> 01:22:29.830 to know some extra facts about God. I'll 01:22:29.840 --> 01:22:31.590 try to figure out if it's this structure 01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.270 or that structure. It was we were 01:22:33.280 --> 01:22:35.750 already Christians were already engaged 01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:38.629 in worship of Jesus in in praying to 01:22:38.639 --> 01:22:40.470 Jesus as God. and they were trying to 01:22:40.480 --> 01:22:41.910 figure out the logic of what they're 01:22:41.920 --> 01:22:43.430 doing. So I guess there's a kind of 01:22:43.440 --> 01:22:45.990 priority to practice and to engagement 01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:47.510 and 01:22:47.520 --> 01:22:49.990 the knowledge follows that and supports 01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:51.830 that and is is is drawn from that. 01:22:51.840 --> 01:22:53.430 That's at least sometimes that seems to 01:22:53.440 --> 01:22:55.910 be the pattern rather than uh my 01:22:55.920 --> 01:22:57.750 relation to God is just to sit back and 01:22:57.760 --> 01:23:00.950 speculate in my armchair. Um I mean 01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:02.550 people may want to do that and then 01:23:02.560 --> 01:23:04.550 they're just some sort of random 01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:06.870 philosopher of religion. I'm not saying 01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:08.070 all philosophers of religion are 01:23:08.080 --> 01:23:10.550 randomly speculating, but it's a human 01:23:10.560 --> 01:23:12.229 possibility, but it doesn't seem to me 01:23:12.239 --> 01:23:14.790 that it makes much sense within 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:16.550 specifically Christian tradition. 01:23:16.560 --> 01:23:18.070 >> And I just, you know, I've been musing 01:23:18.080 --> 01:23:20.470 on the these same ideas as you've been 01:23:20.480 --> 01:23:23.270 talking. And of course the same 01:23:23.280 --> 01:23:25.189 instinct, the same instinct that there 01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:27.270 is knowledge that just by possessing it 01:23:27.280 --> 01:23:30.070 can harm you or is is in some respect 01:23:30.080 --> 01:23:32.629 evil or not good at the very least is of 01:23:32.639 --> 01:23:35.430 course also a dangerous idea in itself 01:23:35.440 --> 01:23:37.350 because we can see all of the the 01:23:37.360 --> 01:23:39.189 practice that can cause. you know, the 01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:41.189 the burning of texts, the whole the 01:23:41.199 --> 01:23:44.310 extreme reaction to heresy and you know, 01:23:44.320 --> 01:23:47.030 many many theological ideas can just be 01:23:47.040 --> 01:23:48.390 called her like maybe social 01:23:48.400 --> 01:23:50.790 trinitarianism in another century would 01:23:50.800 --> 01:23:53.350 have just been all right, that's heresy. 01:23:53.360 --> 01:23:55.350 um you can't say this to anyone in case 01:23:55.360 --> 01:23:57.110 you sort of corrupt their mind. And it's 01:23:57.120 --> 01:23:59.669 it's a really interesting twist because 01:23:59.679 --> 01:24:01.430 on the one hand it does seem to be 01:24:01.440 -->

01:24:03.510 there's a certain truth in 01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:05.350 >> in what goes into the head can't come 01:24:05.360 --> 01:24:07.990 out of it and that being in there it can 01:24:08.000 --> 01:24:10.229 have a sort of acidic presence but 01:24:10.239 --> 01:24:11.510 equally 01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:13.990 >> that premise can allow people to say 01:24:14.000 --> 01:24:15.910 well well you know these books they 01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:17.590 can't be read because once they're in 01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:19.110 they don't come out and it's 01:24:19.120 --> 01:24:20.550 >> we're going to protect everyone by 01:24:20.560 --> 01:24:22.950 >> like the totalitarian instinct again. 01:24:22.960 --> 01:24:23.510 Yeah. 01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:25.030 >> Yeah. 01:24:25.040 --> 01:24:26.790 >> Yeah. No, that's that's a good point. 01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:30.070 Um, in the ideal scenario, 01:24:30.080 --> 01:24:32.310 people have 01:24:32.320 --> 01:24:34.149 enough 01:24:34.159 --> 01:24:36.229 exposure to the right way of relating to 01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:38.149 God and their religious practice that 01:24:38.159 --> 01:24:39.750 they instinctively know that certain 01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:43.350 kinds of things are are not um not to be 01:24:43.360 --> 01:24:46.390 followed rather than there being a kind 01:24:46.400 --> 01:24:49.189 of force that's um burning the books for 01:24:49.199 --> 01:24:51.830 them or blocking them or or whatever. 01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:54.550 But yeah, that's that's an interesting 01:24:54.560 --> 01:24:57.910 dilemma. Um, so although I I really take 01:24:57.920 --> 01:24:59.030 your point that there's some kind of 01:24:59.040 --> 01:25:03.110 knowledge that should not be sought 01:25:03.120 --> 01:25:05.270 as a university academic, I can't kind 01:25:05.280 --> 01:25:06.310 of lead with that. 01:25:06.320 --> 01:25:08.394 >> I see a big bookshelf behind you. 01:25:08.404 --> 01:25:08.629 [laughter] 01:25:08.639 --> 01:25:10.709 >> Yeah. Yeah. 01:25:10.719 --> 01:25:12.950 >> And CDs. Are those CDs behind you there? 01:25:12.960 --> 01:25:16.229 >> There are some CDs as well. 01:25:16.239 --> 01:25:18.629 Um well I was more thinking about can 01:25:18.639 --> 01:25:19.910 you imagine what the rest of the 01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:21.430 university would say if the theology 01:25:21.440 --> 01:25:23.030 department was saying 01:25:23.040 --> 01:25:24.470 >> you're not allowed to think this and not 01:25:24.480 --> 01:25:25.830 allowed to [laughter] ask that. So and 01:25:25.840 --> 01:25:28.310 and and in a way it's back to it's back 01:25:28.320 --> 01:25:30.870 to my 14-year-old experience of the the 01:25:30.880 --> 01:25:33.110 nun essentially saying you're ask 01:25:33.120 --> 01:25:35.830 question and for me that was very bad 01:25:35.840 --> 01:25:38.550 for religious development. Um, so the 01:25:38.560 --> 01:25:39.750 wrong kind of suppression of the 01:25:39.760 --> 01:25:42.149 intellect is bad, but I guess there's a

01:25:42.159 --> 01:25:43.350 right kind of discretion of the 01:25:43.360 --> 01:25:44.709 intellect that doesn't go in the wrong 01:25:44.719 --> 01:25:45.830 direction. But how do you know between 01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:47.270 the two? It's a really interesting 01:25:47.280 --> 01:25:47.750 question. 01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:49.510 >> Yeah, it's tricky. And I know like a lot 01:25:49.520 --> 01:25:52.550 of um a sort of hip word in 01:25:52.560 --> 01:25:55.590 intrachristian discourse is gnostic. 01:25:55.600 --> 01:25:59.350 people uh ascribe this kind of lust for 01:25:59.360 --> 01:26:03.510 knowledge, if you will, as as Gnostic or 01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:06.390 having this tendencies of a of a vague 01:26:06.400 --> 01:26:09.110 early church heresy. It's never it's 01:26:09.120 --> 01:26:10.629 it's never like specifically 01:26:10.639 --> 01:26:12.550 Sethiannosticism or something. It's just 01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.229 a general catch all term. 01:26:14.239 --> 01:26:14.629 >> Yeah. 01:26:14.639 --> 01:26:16.310 >> To throw over. Yeah. 01:26:16.320 --> 01:26:17.830 >> Yeah. I don't think I have the answers, 01:26:17.840 --> 01:26:19.350 but it's a great line of question. 01:26:19.360 --> 01:26:21.110 >> Yeah. Yeah. And and thinking again to to 01:26:21.120 --> 01:26:22.950 Eden that, you know, the tree was 01:26:22.960 --> 01:26:24.950 accessible. God could have put a big 01:26:24.960 --> 01:26:27.189 ring wire fence around it with loads of 01:26:27.199 --> 01:26:29.189 like cameras and alarms. Could have 01:26:29.199 --> 01:26:31.189 could have burned the tree but left the 01:26:31.199 --> 01:26:33.669 tree there to be to be accessed. Didn't 01:26:33.679 --> 01:26:35.189 because I think there's a big difference 01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:36.870 to people not seeking a kind of 01:26:36.880 --> 01:26:38.550 knowledge and people for whom that 01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:39.830 knowledge has simply been made 01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:42.629 inaccessible completely. That's that I 01:26:42.639 --> 01:26:44.870 think that is like categorically an 01:26:44.880 --> 01:26:46.470 extremely different kind of existence. 01:26:46.480 --> 01:26:47.830 Some because you could just give someone 01:26:47.840 --> 01:26:50.709 no books then they're safe. Don't teach 01:26:50.719 --> 01:26:52.470 them to read, then they're completely 01:26:52.480 --> 01:26:55.030 But that obviously was not the sort of 01:26:55.040 --> 01:26:57.590 divine intention to just have a a world 01:26:57.600 --> 01:26:59.669 of mutes and dancers who cannot 01:26:59.679 --> 01:27:02.470 accidentally embibe the wrong info. 01:27:02.480 --> 01:27:02.870 >> Yeah. 01:27:02.880 --> 01:27:04.709 >> Yeah. Thank you ever so much for your 01:27:04.719 --> 01:27:05.990 time, K. This has been a really 01:27:06.000 --> 01:27:07.669 delightful discussion. 01:27:07.679 --> 01:27:08.950 >> Thank you for the conversation. I've 01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:09.990 really enjoyed it. 01:27:10.000 --> 01:27:13.360 >> Yeah. Have a lovely rest of your