Full Transcript for How to Define Infidelity Before it Ever Happens

from infidelity, this was one of the first things I had to do with my model. 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.439 I believe that healing from infidelity doesn't always mean healing the relationship. 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:00.160 Some people are able to heal the relationship and make it stronger and better than it was prior to the discovery. 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:07.040 For others, healing has to be done individually because not everybody's going to be able and willing to do what it takes to rebuild trust. 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:17.279 So infidelity recovery, or the purpose of infidelity recovery, is to help people process the trauma and make an informed decision about the future so they don't find themselves in the situation again. 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:19.120 Bringing this back to the statistics. 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:31.360 So when we use the systematic FA recovery therapy model, I would say that the stats for how many couples end up repairing their relationship after the discovery of infidelity, it would be in the 85%. 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:44.399 But the other 15%, I also count them as success because I believe that my success rate is by getting people unstuck, whether they actually rebuild their relationship or they find out that this relationship is something that they need to move past. 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:47.519 I like that definition. 00:05:47.680 --> 00:06:07.199 I don't uh work with couples in my practice, but it is always challenging to find someone to refer the couples to, because if both people are expressing that they want to move past it and they want to repair it, so often they're coming back saying we've decided to go our separate ways. 00:06:07.279 --> 00:06:09.839 We've decided to end our relationship. 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:16.000 Yeah, you you bring up a good point, which is uh a lot of therapists are very anxious about working with couples. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:26.399 Even though a lot of therapists are trained in general modality of treatments about couples counseling, I think the big anxiety is that when you're dealing with clients dealing with infidelity, it's a high intensity of emotion. 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:32.000 And it seems like every mistake is gonna, you know, uh uh produce uh major consequences. 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:34.720 So a lot of my trainees are usually kind of anxious about this. 00:06:34.879 --> 00:06:44.000 And simply it's because they never really had a proper model to help them figure out what are the milestones that they need to be looking for and what are the clinical objectives that they need to help their clients overcome? 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:53.199 I'm hoping that we can really get into all of these pieces because it's gonna be informative whether folks are working with this population or not. 00:06:53.439 --> 00:07:02.000 Um that way they'll know at the very least who to be referring to or what to be looking for, let alone what they can be integrating themselves. 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.839 What is the definition of infidelity? 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.000 What's a good working model for that? 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:08.879 Great. 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:19.920 So that was actually the first puzzle that had to be solved because um when people come to treatment, and especially when couples are coming to see you as a clinician, they're looking for somebody to help them put a label on the problem. 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.600 So being able to define infidelity is crucial. 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:37.439 So the problem with infidelity and defining infidelity, that uh when you look at the average person, people define infidelity differently based on their worldview, spiritual orientation, and whatever cultural filters that they bring with them. 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:51.439 Even when you look at clinicians and when you look at research, uh, you notice that the operational definitions that researchers are utilizing are different from research from one study to another, which is a different kind of problem because we're not going to be able to generalize this data. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:08:02.639 So the first thing I have to figure out is how do I come up with a jet with an operation definition of infidelity that accommodates all my clients who come from a variety of different backgrounds and different uh value systems. 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:20.399 And I also need a definition that put a personal buffer between me as a person as a to all my definition as a person as well as uh what works for my client, because you don't want your clients to think that your opinion on this issue or your definition of infidelity reflecting your personal value system because that should be out of your clinical work. 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:27.839 The definition of created is based on the idea that we all have the capacity of living alone and fulfill our own physical and emotional needs. 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:28.720 Can we do it? 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:29.199 Sure. 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:31.439 Uh but it's more of a quality of life. 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:43.279 Life is more fulfilling when we decide to share it with other individuals, which means that relationships should have a relationship contract that specify how many partners we have in this relationship. 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:45.440 Is it one, is it two, is it 20? 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:54.000 Uh, to what extent uh uh what are the needs, the emotional and physical needs that we're expecting our partners to fulfill in this relationship? 00:08:54.159 --> 00:09:00.559 And to what extent the fulfillment of those needs is exclusive to the partners in this relationship contract? 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:14.879 So the moment any person in this relationship outsource the fulfillment of those physical or emotional needs to somebody else outside this relationship without the consent of the partners, you're preaching that contract of exclusivity. 00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:17.919 And that threshold is what

defines infidelity. 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:19.360 Does that make sense? 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:20.399 It does. 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.879 Is is a key element here that both partners are deciding what their contract looks like? 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:31.759 Does it have to be discussed beforehand, or do some of these things come about nonverbally? 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:33.759 Great point. 00:09:34.399 --> 00:09:41.759 So uh a lot of times people are impulsive and people don't take the time to have those conversations and you know talk about their needs. 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:47.840 Sometimes people do this implicitly, sometimes people do this explicitly, and sometimes people don't have this conversation at all. 00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:56.720 I think a few years ago there was a study about how often couples communicate about their boundaries uh, you know, you know, before problems happen. 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:04.559 And I think the study showed that over 50% of couples don't have those conversations, and they only have them after something bad happens, right? 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:07.039 And then they have to talk about those boundaries. 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:14.559 So I think a lot of times it's that people just really never talked about those parameters of exclusivity or they talked about them in an implicit way. 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:18.960 And I think this has to do with our anxiety about talking about a relationship. 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:28.000 I think it reflects how as a society we did poorly in teaching people how to find healthy relationships, how to uh develop your emotional intelligence. 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:29.600 And I think that's why people struggle. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:36.799 How is society setting these parameters or not enforcing the importance of discussion? 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:40.480 I think the first place, like I said, where you actually learn about these things is family of origin. 00:10:40.799 --> 00:10:53.440 So if we're looking at about generational trauma and your parents and grandparents and you go back to that, you know, family tree line, if if if there was disruption in that system and nobody in those generations got that skill set, most likely you're not going to give that skill set. 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:59.679 Now, if we look socially, right, being able to work on yourself, being able to have access to therapy, it's a privilege. 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:05.600 It's a privilege that not everybody has access to as a reflection of people's socioeconomic and access they have to care. 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:15.840 So I think, which which leaves you as the average person who maybe, you know, you didn't have a good model growing up and you don't have access to, you know, self-help book therapy to develop yourself. 00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:17.200 So where are you going to get this information? 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:23.200 You're going to get it from what you see around you, your neighborhood, your group of

friends, TV, media, internet. 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:37.919 So, and I think, you know, any average person when you look at how relationship portrayed in the media, how relationship how love stories portray, whether you're talking about kid movies, adult movies, it's not a healthy way of how relationship should be. 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:47.039 So you end up with a lot of people who have uh ideas about what relationship proxy looks like, but they don't really have the idea of how healthy relationship starts. 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:47.840 Mm-hmm. 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:50.000 I think about that a lot too. 00:11:50.159 --> 00:12:01.120 One element from media that comes to mind for me is that it looks like in movies you can revive a relationship with a grand gesture. 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:04.559 You know, like one great uh reflection of love. 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:10.480 And I never showed that it would take so much work and so many efforts after that and beyond. 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:12.480 You know, it stops with the grand gesture. 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:32.720 I'm glad you brought this up this stuff because the grand gesture part comes up quite often in Fidelity Recovery, because it's a lot easier for the unfaithful to do a grand gesture versus do the heavy lifting, the tedious work of being there and repairing trusts and being comfortable with this discomfort that happened because of the consequences of our behavior. 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:40.639 So a lot of times, you know, from the field perspective, it's it's easier for them to do something grand to say, to reflect how sorry they are. 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:45.519 Because at the end of the day, I think any it's anybody can, you know, do something that's tangible in that aspect. 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.799 It's harder to do internal work on yourself and your relationship. 00:12:49.200 --> 00:13:14.240 You know, on a recent episode about narcissism, a similar topic came up that it's easier for someone who who scores high on a narcissism to do a gesture because they're they're kind of numb to those emotional feelings, which makes me wonder: do you see an overlap with other diagnoses when infidelity is involved? 00:13:53.189 --> 00:13:53.589 Sure. 00:13:53.829 --> 00:13:58.709 So my latest book is called Deconstructing Infidelity, the Causes and the Myths. 00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:06.870 And there's like a big chapter where we talk about the myths, uh lot infidelity, or the wrong ideas that we have lot infidelity and infidelity recovery. 00:14:07.029 --> 00:14:11.509 Um one of them has to do uh the common myth of once a cheater, always a cheater. 00:14:11.589 --> 00:14:15.829 Um so fact of the matter is that people cheat for a variety of reasons. 00:14:16.069 --> 00:14:25.269 And even though there might be similar patterns, each unique story has its unique nuances that cause that individual to be that situation in the first place. 00:14:25.589 --> 00:14:29.669 So tying this idea of like why do

people have these myths? 00:14:29.829 --> 00:14:31.429 Because usually there is a kernel of truth. 00:14:31.509 --> 00:14:33.990 So where is the kernel of truth when it comes to that piece? 00:14:34.230 --> 00:14:47.990 It comes to the type of infidelity when one of the main reasons that they were unfaithful is related to an individual mental health issue that they haven't dealt with, such as the case of personality disorders, cluster B traits, right? 00:14:48.389 --> 00:14:59.669 And for most folks know personality disorders are very resistant to change, especially you're dealing with cluster B's, because you know it's the idea that I'm okay with my symptoms, I just want the world to bend to my wealth. 00:14:59.829 --> 00:15:02.469 The idea of egosotonic and egodystonic differences. 00:15:02.709 --> 00:15:08.149 People believe that once a cheater is always a cheater because they're thinking about the narcissist unfaithful partners. 00:15:08.309 --> 00:15:11.909 For those guys, it's difficult for them to break that pattern, right? 00:15:12.230 --> 00:15:19.829 But that doesn't mean that every best friend who cheated is a narcissist or every person who might have a narcissistic tendency actually fit that profile. 00:15:20.069 --> 00:15:28.709 So there are some cases that actually is very resistant to treatment in the sense of if your goal is healing the relationship. 00:15:28.870 --> 00:15:40.389 Uh my second book, uh, Unfaithful and Unrepented actually talk about the different archetypes of unfaithful partner in which repairing their relationship is not an attainable healing destination. 00:15:41.350 --> 00:15:42.789 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:15:43.110 --> 00:15:46.870 Can you speak to what some of the other myths are? 00:15:47.189 --> 00:15:56.149 Oh, so there's another myth about uh seeing infidelity as just a reflection of um uh a midlife crisis. 00:15:56.309 --> 00:15:59.429 So a lot of people say, well, you know, this is what people do in their midlife crisis. 00:15:59.589 --> 00:16:06.069 When we actually take the time and look like midlife crisis as a phenomena, it's actually not cross-culturally existing. 00:16:06.230 --> 00:16:10.629 So it's only in certain cultures, this idea of uh midlife crisis. 00:16:10.789 --> 00:16:13.990 Not every community or every culture goes through something like that. 00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:14.789 That's one. 00:16:15.509 --> 00:16:32.469 Two, uh what a lot of people conflate as byproduct of a midlife crisis, oftentimes is comorbidity to depression, anxiety, or just the malaise of being, you know, older and going on life and trying to look back and see you're not happy with where you're at, right? 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:46.389 So even the idea of uh a midlife crisis in itself is not culturally universal, but also oftentimes is being utilized as an acute excuse or justification in a way of more like a whitewashing design of behavior. 00:16:46.549 --> 00:16:54.949 Because this takes us back to the whole idea

of media impact of media and society, how we failed in helping people and uh understanding what healthy relationships look like. 00:16:55.189 --> 00:17:06.309 Also, if you look in media and how relationship portrayed, almost uh every story has an element and infidelity, which makes you as an audience look at that and normalize it because everybody does it. 00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:09.350 I'm not much different than this person that I saw on TV. 00:17:09.430 --> 00:17:15.589 I'm not much different than this uh sport celebrity or political celebrity that I like. 00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:24.630 So how we see those stories and in the general media affect how we interact with that and affect how we reflect them in our own relationships. 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:36.309 Are there other causes and contributing factors that come up in addition to some of the societal and familial pieces that we've talked about so far? 00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:37.029 Sure. 00:17:37.190 --> 00:17:43.910 When we talk about the etiology of infidelity, I always encourage people to think about looking at three categories of causes. 00:17:44.230 --> 00:17:48.790 Uh the most common causes of infidelity is relationship deficits. 00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:56.150 Uh I would say, you know, oftentimes when people feel that their needs are not being met in the relationship, those needs are not going to go away. 00:17:56.230 --> 00:17:59.190 They're just going to end up being fulfilled in a different outlet. 00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:02.390 Uh, category of causes of infidelity is individual factors. 00:18:02.630 --> 00:18:09.269 These are the issues that the unfaithful partner might have dealt with, brought with them prior to even uh being in the relationship. 00:18:09.509 --> 00:18:17.670 It could be somebody who's been dealing with uh pornography addiction, sex addiction, hypersexuality, whatever terminology you want to use as a clinician. 00:18:17.830 --> 00:18:31.430 Or it could be somebody who uh might be uh dealing with uh a lot of trauma or a traumatic brain injury because there are a lot of individual mental health issues that impact the individual impulse control. 00:18:31.590 --> 00:18:43.350 So if I have a mental disorder that impacts my impulse control, let's say I was bipolar and during a manic episode, I might cross those bounds of infidelity simply because I didn't have impulse control. 00:18:43.670 --> 00:18:52.390 So there is a wide range of individual issues that has nothing to do with the relationship deficit that could cause somebody to be unfaithful, which brings up the idea about myth. 00:18:52.550 --> 00:18:56.390 So a lot of times people think, you know, if somebody cheated because they're not happy with their partner. 00:18:56.550 --> 00:18:57.750 Well, no, that's not true. 00:18:57.910 --> 00:19:00.870 There are a lot of people who have who have the perfect partner for them. 00:19:01.029 --> 00:19:05.430 They're compatible and meeting their needs, and despite that, they're still dealing with infidelity. 00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:13.110 Which leaves the third re the third category of free zenzo-phy theology because so far we said we have relationship issues, we have individual issues. 00:19:13.269 --> 00:19:15.910 The third one is environmental factors. 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:27.590 So this was actually the most uh exciting discovery in my clinical research between bridging the gap between what sociologist says as well as bringing that into clinical work. 00:19:27.910 --> 00:19:35.430 Interestingly enough, uh, there are a lot of environmental factors that actually can be a make or break to crossing lines of infidelity. 00:19:35.590 --> 00:19:39.269 The most obvious one, or should be the obvious one, is cultural norms. 00:19:39.590 --> 00:19:43.750 We all belong to macro and microcultures, right? 00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:59.430 Macrocultures maybe like you know, religion, ethnicity, nationality, microcultures is you know, your your family of origin, you know, your group of professionals, whichever cultural group you belong to, that cultural group usually have cultural norms. 00:19:59.590 --> 00:20:06.470 And cultural norms are the blueprint that tells us what's appropriate or inappropriate in terms of social interactions. 00:20:06.790 --> 00:20:24.950 So if you are a member of a cultural group, and in that cultural group, one of the norms is something along the lines masculinity uh translate to having uh multiple sexual encounters or crossing the lines of infidelity. 00:20:25.110 --> 00:20:30.070 You're going to actually cross those lines because it is sanctioned by your cultural norms. 00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:37.990 If you're in a group of individuals and your peers are doing those behaviors, you're not going to be worried about crossing those lines because your peers are doing it. 00:20:38.310 --> 00:20:46.550 So sometimes it's just as a social level, like uh everybody in that cultural group practices, and sometimes it's really more of a family of origin thing. 00:20:46.630 --> 00:20:56.390 If you saw uh your parents deal with infidelity repeatedly, or your aunties and uncles, you might not think that's much of a big deal because that taboo was already broken for you. 00:20:58.070 --> 00:21:00.070 That is interesting to think about. 00:21:00.310 --> 00:21:15.830 Are there ways to make yourself less at risk if you do have contacts that are engaging in infidelity or you come from a culture where it's the norm? 00:21:16.230 --> 00:21:24.550 I think it's it's about finding finding balance because I think it would be outlandish to say, well, just because so and so does this thing, I'm gonna follow them and do it exactly. 00:21:24.710 --> 00:21:31.110 It's a matter of what type of relationship you have with those individuals and what kind of activities that relationship dictate, right? 00:21:31.350 --> 00:21:41.830 Like if I know somebody you know at a distance and me and this person, you know, this person is unfaithful, but

me and this person don't hang out, we don't have any sense of social obligations that will put us in the same sphere. 00:21:41.990 --> 00:21:46.550 I don't have to cut my ties with that person because we're not gonna be put in situations like that. 00:21:46.710 --> 00:21:55.190 But let's say this person, you know, goes to strip strip clubs frequently and going to strip club and my relationship contract is considered a form of infidelity. 00:21:55.430 --> 00:21:57.750 Me and that person are gonna be able to hang out as much, right? 00:21:57.910 --> 00:22:02.230 Because the behaviors that this person like go against my relationship contract. 00:22:02.390 --> 00:22:08.630 So in that sense, I'm putting myself in a situation where I'm making it difficult for me to respect those boundaries. 00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:10.230 Yeah, that makes sense. 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:14.230 I also wanted to talk about norms between men and women. 00:22:14.390 --> 00:22:15.910 Have you noticed differences? 00:22:16.390 --> 00:22:16.790 Perfect. 00:22:17.029 --> 00:22:22.630 I I think that that the the topic of men and women differences when it comes to infidelity is a fascinating one. 00:22:22.790 --> 00:22:27.350 There there is so much information about it, there's so much bad information about it too, right? 00:22:27.750 --> 00:22:35.670 Um and and I think, you know, I would say we go the big part of this history, this uh the the the the idea of you know men's from Mars and women from Venus Venus. 00:22:35.750 --> 00:22:40.630 I feel like that was more popular at uh A segment of time where we see those differences. 00:22:41.350 --> 00:22:48.470 So I do believe that there are differences in some facets of infidelity between men and women, but not the ones we think. 00:22:48.630 --> 00:22:57.830 The one that I've seen in terms of uh clinically as well as in the research base, uh, men and women define def defined infidelity differently. 00:22:58.070 --> 00:23:08.150 So uh there are a lot of studies that show when you ask women to define infidelity, their definition of fidelity is not simply just talking about the physical and sexual act. 00:23:08.310 --> 00:23:16.310 It's actually including the non-sexual act, the intimate act, hand holding, hugging, right, gift-giving, things along those lines. 00:23:16.630 --> 00:23:29.029 When you uh look at how men define infidelity, oftentimes it is, you know, focus on the physical aspect and not so much emphasis on the emotional uh aspect and then the non-sexual stuff. 00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:34.950 Uh so that's one main difference is in terms of how men and women view infidelity differently. 00:23:35.190 --> 00:23:42.870 There are different ideas about how uh men and women react differently based on the type of infidelity being discovered. 00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:54.070 So uh women tend to be more upset about the discovery of an emotional affair, men tend to be more upset about the discovery of a sexual affair. 00:23:54.150 --> 00:23:57.110 And there's a lot of people who try to interpret what that meant. 00:23:57.269 --> 00:24:04.630 And the one the one the explanation that I like the most is called the double shot hypothesis is an idea, some research in the 90s was able to put this together. 00:24:04.870 --> 00:24:23.190 So the explanation goes something like this if uh if if women are upset about the discovery of an emotional affair, because from their perspective, the emotional affair, the discovery of the emotional affair of their male partner is an indication that both lines were crossed. 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:30.310 Because from a female perspective, a man would not fall in love with a woman unless he actually had sex with her, right? 00:24:30.630 --> 00:24:40.230 So seeing the emotional affair from a female perspective is an indication that both lines were crossed, and that's why it's more upsetting than the discovery of a sexual affair. 00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:51.750 When you look at why men get more upset about a sexual affair, because from a men's perspective, the woman were not going to have the woman not going to have sex with someone unless she was emotionally attached to that person. 00:24:51.910 --> 00:24:56.710 So for them, the discovery of sexual affair is an indication that both lines were crossed. 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:05.509 So it's not really the type itself, it's how uh how we socialize and men and women on what those type of affairs mean to us. 00:25:05.990 --> 00:25:12.950 They're um going with their own perspective on what it means, and that's how big the impact is for the individual. 00:25:13.430 --> 00:25:15.910 And and that part we have to ask, okay, well, where does this count? 00:25:16.070 --> 00:25:17.830 Why would why would they interpret it differently? 00:25:17.990 --> 00:25:22.310 Well, it's because it's it's how men and women socialize within each culture, right? 00:25:22.390 --> 00:25:27.110 It's a reflection of that and the ideas they're given and the messaging about how relationship works. 00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:37.830 It's interesting to think that someone might look at hand holding like a precursor to an affair, while another person would look at it like that's the affair. 00:25:38.070 --> 00:25:39.830 That's the infidelity. 00:25:40.310 --> 00:25:40.550 Sure. 00:25:40.710 --> 00:25:52.310 And and and I think again, if people say, like, what is the what is the most uh if you want to bulletproof your relationship about something like this and one thing like a must-have, well, it would be that conversation about exclusivity. 00:25:52.550 --> 00:25:54.950 I think most people don't even know what that means, right? 00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:56.230 Or or think about that idea. 00:25:56.310 --> 00:26:02.470 I think a lot of people just focus on exclusivity in the tense in the terms of sexual well, don't have sex with somebody else. 00:26:02.630 --> 00:26:05.670 That's somewhat relatively easier to wrap our mind about. 00:26:05.830 -->

00:26:07.990 Emotional intimacy, it's more difficult. 00:26:08.230 --> 00:26:27.350 Uh emotional uh uh infidelity is more difficult to define because it would be unrealistic to say I only have one person to fulfill my all my emotional needs, because emotional needs fulfillment is something that's open for multiple people, not just for our uh emotionally intimate partners. 00:26:27.750 --> 00:26:34.950 I was thinking of a famous example of a contract was Vice President Mike Pence. 00:26:35.110 --> 00:26:35.910 Do you remember this? 00:26:36.150 --> 00:26:40.550 In his contract with his wife, he wouldn't be in a room alone with another woman. 00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:43.990 And so he would decline meetings and things based on that. 00:26:44.150 --> 00:26:48.230 That got a lot of publicity for a lot of reasons, people's own response to it. 00:26:48.310 --> 00:26:52.470 But also most people haven't had that conversation to begin with. 00:26:52.870 --> 00:26:53.269 Sure. 00:26:53.430 --> 00:27:01.029 And and and this bringing up the other issue too, because remember when I said one of the challenges as a clinician, you need to make a call on is this infidelity or not? 00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:05.190 And you cannot make that call based on your own relationship contract as a therapist, right? 00:27:05.350 --> 00:27:08.150 Because your world you might be vast vastly different. 00:27:08.470 --> 00:27:14.710 But also, what do you do as a clinician if you come across a relationship contract that seems to be unhealthy or abnormal? 00:27:14.870 --> 00:27:15.190 Right? 00:27:15.350 --> 00:27:25.190 Though so there are some situations where you say, okay, yes, even though this was the contract, but do you let's take a look at why this contract, why this relationship contract was breached. 00:27:25.350 --> 00:27:32.070 Sometimes the relationship contract was breached because the re the expectations are unrealistic or the expectations are untainable. 00:27:32.390 --> 00:27:46.870 Let's say, let's say the relationship contract is say, hey, you know, husband and wife, heterosexual relationship, and the husband says, you know, my expectation from you as wife to, you know, to have zero interaction with any kind of males, period. 00:27:47.269 --> 00:27:50.550 And let's say that she lost her mind and agreed to that. 00:27:50.870 --> 00:27:54.310 How realistic for that contract to be honored? 00:27:54.470 --> 00:28:00.230 Like it's it's gonna be pretty near impossible unless you live in a you know in a room and there is zero contact. 00:28:00.310 --> 00:28:05.590 So sometimes people breach those contracts because somebody signed up for a contract that is just not attainable. 00:28:05.830 --> 00:28:13.509 Or sometimes the contract, uh maybe the expectations are real and healthy, but the person who's signing, they don't have the capacity, right? 00:28:14.950 --> 00:28:15.350 Mm-hmm. 00:28:15.509 --> 00:28:25.509 I mean, I think that's a really important piece here, too, that

a contract is to consenting individuals that have the power and the control to consent. 00:28:25.670 --> 00:28:35.430 If an individual initiates a contract with coercion, then they could say, hey, you violated the terms of the contract, and it really isn't a contract in that way. 00:28:35.830 --> 00:28:36.230 Brilliant. 00:28:36.390 --> 00:28:48.790 Remember when we're talking about the causes of infidelity and a fact about so this this bring up the to put this in practice, when we look at the environmental factors of infidelity, one of them was power dynamics in the relationship. 00:28:48.950 --> 00:28:53.990 So sociologists believe that every relationship has power dynamics. 00:28:54.070 --> 00:29:01.670 And as much as we'd like to think that all relationships are egalitarian and people have equal level of power, that is not always the case. 00:29:01.910 --> 00:29:10.470 Oftentimes you have relationships where there is a significant power disparity where one person has a significantly higher level of power in the relationship. 00:29:10.630 --> 00:29:12.150 Well, how do people end up like that? 00:29:12.310 --> 00:29:14.550 Well, sometimes it's just set up like that from the beginning. 00:29:14.710 --> 00:29:20.630 Sometimes it's because, you know, one person maybe is the breadwinner and the other person is, you know, the one who stays at home. 00:29:20.710 --> 00:29:26.390 Sometimes it's cultural based because, you know, if you're a male, it's you'd have certain rights or a female have certain rights. 00:29:26.550 --> 00:29:27.910 But regardless of the differences. 00:29:28.230 --> 00:29:29.029 Yeah, exactly. 00:29:29.110 --> 00:29:33.190 Sometimes age differences, oh, sometimes is uh wisdom and experiences, right? 00:29:33.269 --> 00:29:37.430 So you might have people who might be the same age, but one of them has more experiences. 00:29:37.670 --> 00:29:46.070 But regardless of those situations, when we have uh disparity in the power dynamics, they create what they call a top dog and underdog dynamic. 00:29:46.150 --> 00:29:48.230 The top dog is the person with more power. 00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:57.590 So the person with more power, the top dog, automatically going to give themselves more rights in their relationship and less responsibility simply because they can. 00:29:57.670 --> 00:30:00.870 They're not gonna play by the same rules as the underdog because why would I? 00:30:00.950 --> 00:30:03.110 I I have higher status, right? 00:30:03.590 --> 00:30:11.029 Now, so which what that would that would entail means that I might not go to play by the same rules of exclusivity that I expect from you. 00:30:11.110 --> 00:30:15.430 I might expect you to be exclusive, but it's okay for me not to be exclusive. 00:30:15.670 --> 00:30:21.830 So that's one way power dynamic could lead the top dog to be uh crossing lines of fidelity. 00:30:22.070 --> 00:30:28.470 The underdog, on the other hand, they're going to be somebody who feels always that this relationship is shaky. 00:30:28.630 --> 00:30:32.550 I I is gonna be a person who's less likely to bring up conflict. 00:30:32.710 --> 00:30:35.990 Because if I bring up conflict, you know, things might be unstable. 00:30:36.150 --> 00:30:44.390 So they're going to be chronically feeling that they're less than, even though they're contributing equally, and eventually it's gonna eat at their self-esteem and software. 00:30:44.630 --> 00:30:47.750 And eventually they're gonna find somebody else who treats them better, right? 00:30:47.910 --> 00:30:52.310 So that will cause the the underdog to achieve because of this power dynamic. 00:30:53.029 --> 00:30:53.350 Okay. 00:30:54.870 --> 00:31:04.870 Um you obviously we've been weaving in um the treatment modality that you use, which is system systemic affair recovery therapy. 00:31:05.029 --> 00:31:11.110 Um would you be able to start going through the seven milestones that you're accomplishing in it? 00:31:11.670 --> 00:31:11.910 Sure. 00:31:11.990 --> 00:31:19.269 I I can I can actually have a sum of the main uh milestone that it actually I would like that you know therapist to kind of focus on. 00:31:19.670 --> 00:31:20.230 Please, yeah. 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:23.430 So so there there are there are seven milestones of recovery. 00:31:23.590 --> 00:31:29.110 I I'm gonna talk about the most important one for me, even though all of them are equally important is how much time we have. 00:31:29.430 --> 00:31:35.029 Uh it's the second milestone, which is uh getting the story of the infidelity. 00:31:35.350 --> 00:31:43.750 I really believe getting the story about what happened and why it happened is the most important aspect of the whole recovery process. 00:31:43.990 --> 00:31:48.550 Because if we don't have a story, if we don't have a narrative, we don't really know what happened. 00:31:48.630 --> 00:31:51.670 And if we don't know what happened, we're not gonna know how we're gonna go forward. 00:31:51.910 --> 00:31:59.350 And really, the the biggest crisis for the betrayed after they discover infidelity is what do I do next? 00:31:59.509 --> 00:32:01.590 That is the most important question for them. 00:32:01.750 --> 00:32:07.029 And they're not gonna be able to answer that question without getting the story out of that fidelity. 00:32:07.350 --> 00:32:09.269 Now, intellectually, it makes sense. 00:32:09.350 --> 00:32:13.430 We all can wrap our mind our mind around it that we need the story to figure out what we do next. 00:32:13.590 --> 00:32:15.269 But it's not easy to tell. 00:32:15.430 --> 00:32:20.790 Uh, because uh even clinicians are not sure how much of the story to tell. 00:32:20.870 --> 00:32:23.350 There are some clinicians who believe story doesn't matter. 00:32:23.430 --> 00:32:24.870 Why can't we just focus on the present? 00:32:25.029 --> 00:32:27.910 Why do we need to traumatize everybody else by revising the past? 00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:34.550 There are some clinicians who feel like no,

every nitty pretty detail uh matters, and we need to do this with technocolors. 00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:37.430 I believe that it's somewhere in the middle. 00:32:37.750 --> 00:32:48.470 Really, I can't see any recovery happen without getting the story, which means that we have to focus on the appropriate level of disclosure. 00:32:48.630 --> 00:32:51.269 So the appropriate level of disclosure means what? 00:32:51.430 --> 00:32:54.710 Is that I give the unfaithful the opportunity to tell the story. 00:32:54.790 --> 00:33:00.710 I'm gonna say, hey, you you told me, you know, you you will have the opportunity to tell me the story from start it for where you want to start. 00:33:00.790 --> 00:33:08.230 And as the clinician, I'm going to ask some qualifying questions to help me understand sequence of events, how things started, how things progressed. 00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:13.269 And as the betrayed partner, you can ask anything you want about the story. 00:33:13.509 --> 00:33:25.029 But before we give an answer to that question, we have to determine how the answer to this question is going to help you understand the type of infidelity that took place and the reason why it happened. 00:33:25.190 --> 00:33:30.150 If you're able to make a case for that, then that's a good question to ask, and that's a good detail to have. 00:33:30.390 --> 00:33:37.029 If you're not able to make a case for that, then maybe that's a detail that you don't want in your head that's going to be stuck and gonna cause urinations. 00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:44.790 A lot of times, the need driving the question is healthy, but people are asking the wrong questions because they don't have the tools. 00:33:44.950 --> 00:33:56.790 So as the clinician, your job is to figure out what's the healthy need underneath this question that seems to be unhealthy, and try to give them that piece of information without overly exposure them to that. 00:33:56.950 --> 00:34:02.470 So really the goal is to get the story with the lowest level of exposure possible. 00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:05.029 It makes a lot of sense. 00:34:05.190 --> 00:34:19.029 If someone is agreeing to move forward, they have to know some level of what were the risk factors, what was going on, what was your mindset maybe, so that they can help to mitigate future situations like that. 00:34:19.909 --> 00:34:20.309 Sure. 00:34:20.469 --> 00:34:35.029 And and and I guess if if if you're working with a couple who is, let's say, dealing with sexual infidelity, and let's say the betrayed partner wants to know what kind of sexual activity that the unfaithful and the fair partner were engaged in. 00:34:35.269 --> 00:34:38.789 As a clinician, do you think that's a good question to ask or a bad question to ask? 00:34:40.070 --> 00:34:42.869 I think it's a good question to ask. 00:34:43.829 --> 00:34:48.710 Because you would know in the future what to be mindful of for both parties. 00:34:49.349 --> 00:34:50.069 Perfect. 00:34:50.389 --> 00:34:53.109 So so I feel like it depends, right? 00:34:53.349 --> 00:35:02.309 Let's say if the sexual affair was caused because the unfaithful had sex addiction. 00:35:02.549 --> 00:35:08.949 In that situation, doesn't matter what sexual activity that the, you know, that the unfaithful and the affair partner were doing. 00:35:09.190 --> 00:35:14.389 I would I would argue that it's not really as important because this is not a compatibility issue. 00:35:14.549 --> 00:35:18.949 This is just about the unfaithful partner not dealing with their sex addiction. 00:35:19.109 --> 00:35:28.069 Now let's say that the actual infidelity happened because of a compatibility, that you have one partner who was identifying as vanilla and the other person identifying on the other extreme end of the kink. 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:34.149 In that case, the betrayed person wants to know how I'm how I was uncompatible with you. 00:35:34.309 --> 00:35:40.230 Because if I need to work on the relationship, I need to know if what you're asking me is something that I want to change about myself. 00:35:40.469 --> 00:35:40.789 Right? 00:35:41.109 --> 00:35:45.989 So I feel like it's it depends on the situation of why the person is asking. 00:35:46.230 --> 00:35:48.469 The idea of the location is important too. 00:35:48.629 --> 00:35:50.869 And here's why I think it's important. 00:35:51.029 --> 00:36:04.789 It's crucial for people not to do the storytelling on their own, and you need a guiding clinician because a lot of times the unfaithful is not willing to give the information appropriately or they're not able to interpret it with the right filter. 00:36:04.949 --> 00:36:08.869 Uh, the whole thing about the the where, a lot of times that's like, why do you want to know? 00:36:08.949 --> 00:36:09.589 What does it matter? 00:36:09.670 --> 00:36:12.469 Yeah, I mean, you know I cheated, and you know I cheated this way, this way. 00:36:12.549 --> 00:36:13.349 Why does it matter? 00:36:13.509 --> 00:36:14.069 Location. 00:36:14.230 --> 00:36:21.909 Well, from the prayer perspective, they want to know how far would you be willing to go to actually accomplish those activities. 00:36:22.149 --> 00:36:34.789 You know, did you have the audacity not only to cheat, but to bring this person and cheat with them on my bed because that changes that damage that you have caused, that changes how I see you as a person and what you're capable of doing. 00:36:35.190 --> 00:36:41.269 And there is a piece of it where the betrayed is trying to figure out the more I know, the more I can safeguard against. 00:36:41.429 --> 00:36:47.670 If I know it was this location, that location, maybe I can, you know, lock that in my head so that what won't happen again to me. 00:36:47.909 --> 00:36:59.029 The problem with fix uh of using those as the barometers of future faithfuls or not is that they're not really real because the unfaithful can change their track, they can cover their track, right? 00:36:59.109

--> 00:37:01.989 They'll just stop going to this place and find a different way to do it. 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:07.190 We need to focus on the right anchor, which is the actual causes of infidelity. 00:37:07.429 --> 00:37:18.309 Because really, in order for us to rebuild trust, we have to figure out what is the actual cause of infidelity and if it's an individual factor, a relationship factor, or environmental or a combination of all those three. 00:37:18.549 --> 00:37:39.429 If we actually identify those reasons, and those reasons are not impossible to fix, and the changes that needs to happen on the individual level and the relationship level are doable and it's not gonna cause somebody to not be authentic, then it's easier for people to uh not have relapse because we have addressed the actual cause that led to that fidelity. 00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:49.750 Yeah, that piece that you mentioned seems really important because it would be without that understanding from all parties and the self-awareness. 00:37:49.829 --> 00:38:12.069 I'm thinking of the person, the hypothetical person you mentioned with the sex addiction, it would be easy, not in a manipulative way, even necessarily, but it would be easy to say, well, I need more of this, or this is the thing I was really after, when really to your point, all that could be in place, but without treatment for the addiction, it wouldn't really make a difference. 00:38:12.309 --> 00:38:23.509 So it's like really keeping someone engaged with that that awareness of like, okay, but even if if your partner had all these things in play without that treatment. 00:38:23.829 --> 00:38:36.549 Yeah, and and and I feel like this is this can actually, I think, address uh another myth that people have about the infidelity that the causes are channel, like the causes of infidelity usually like monochromatic is just one reason. 00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:38.149 It's it is rare. 00:38:38.469 --> 00:38:59.829 Uh because really when I work with my couples, before we even talk about the infidelity, which is important for our clinicians to pay attention to, not only the way we tell the story and ask that question is important, but before you even start opening up that can of worms about the story, we need to get a lot of history first so that we can interpret the story within the broader context. 00:38:59.989 --> 00:39:01.190 What do I mean by this? 00:39:01.349 --> 00:39:07.670 Uh, before we talk about the infidelity, I asked my clients to tell me a little bit more about uh their past relationship history. 00:39:07.829 --> 00:39:11.029 What kind of relationship have they had prior to the current one they're in? 00:39:11.190 --> 00:39:12.230 How long were they? 00:39:12.389 --> 00:39:13.589 Uh how did they end? 00:39:13.750 --> 00:39:15.429 Uh, did they encounter trauma? 00:39:15.589 --> 00:39:18.869 How did that trauma impact their future view about future relationship? 00:39:19.029 --> 00:39:27.909 Because I need to know what damage or lack thereof they brought into before they got into this new relationship that is now total, then we need to fix it, right? 00:39:28.710 --> 00:39:32.949 I also asked them to tell me about the current relationship that we're trying to fix, right? 00:39:33.029 --> 00:39:37.909 You know, how did we start, how we got here, what are some of the major transitions? 00:39:38.149 --> 00:39:40.389 Like we do a lifeline for the relationship. 00:39:40.469 --> 00:39:49.989 And it's amazing when you actually do the history and you do this lifeline, like the pieces of why the infidelity happened, you can begin to see those red flags pop up, right? 00:39:50.149 --> 00:39:53.589 And your clients are actually seeing that as you're revisiting the story with them. 00:39:53.670 --> 00:39:53.989 It's weird. 00:39:54.069 --> 00:39:57.349 It's like you're doing this autopsy with them and you're making those discoveries together. 00:39:57.589 --> 00:40:12.710 So when you do that first and you collect all this data and you switch gears and you talk about the story of the infidelity, it's gonna click that all of these things that we talked about in the past are contributing factor to this dynamic that led us to this current infidelity. 00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:21.190 And it becomes easier for both partners to make those discoveries together, which bring up another thing that I need to highlight for people for folks about infidelity recovery. 00:40:21.349 --> 00:40:26.469 You cannot do infidelity recovery in an individual level, you have to do this out of the as a couple. 00:40:27.349 --> 00:40:28.149 Just gonna ask that. 00:40:28.469 --> 00:40:31.429 Because yeah, because you need to make those discoveries together. 00:40:31.589 --> 00:40:44.069 Because if I what if I whether I'm the cheater or the betrayed, if I go to individual counseling, even if I'm honest and ready to lay all the cards on the table, I am I have a blind spot. 00:40:44.149 --> 00:40:49.190 And part of the story of why this happened is going to be with the other partner, right? 00:40:49.670 --> 00:40:52.949 And this is especially important if I was the unfaithful. 00:40:53.190 --> 00:40:57.829 It is important for the betrayed to see those discoveries versus me coming home to say, hey, guess what? 00:40:57.989 --> 00:41:01.029 Me and my therapist said, you know, you should have. 00:41:01.349 --> 00:41:06.230 Yeah, but because they're not gonna believe that you, you know, you mean my therapist said they were not there. 00:41:06.869 --> 00:41:07.190 Yes. 00:41:07.429 --> 00:41:19.349 Watching it unfold in an authentic way can go a long way toward ultimately a healing place rather than coming back and reporting on what was decided in the other partner's absence. 00:41:19.589 --> 00:41:25.909 What would be another milestone that you think is important to highlight in this context? 00:41:26.549 --> 00:41:29.750 Um, I'll talk about acknowledging the impact. 00:41:29.829 --> 00:41:32.389 So this

would be the milestone after getting the story. 00:41:32.469 --> 00:41:33.509 This is the third milestone. 00:41:33.589 --> 00:41:51.829 The clinical objective is actually to accomplish two things: to showcase whether or not the unfaithful partner have the emotional experience that the trade expects them to have after discovery of infidelity, and two, whether or not they actually uh intellectually understand the damage that they have caused. 00:41:52.069 --> 00:41:53.190 This is really important. 00:41:53.349 --> 00:41:57.509 I feel like this is also another reason why people fail in repairing their relationship. 00:41:57.750 --> 00:42:07.269 Um so the betrayed is expecting that the unfaithful showcase guilt, remorse, feeling about about what they did. 00:42:07.989 --> 00:42:09.670 Why do the betrays expect that? 00:42:09.989 --> 00:42:14.869 Because we operate on the idea that when people do something bad, they should feel sorry about it. 00:42:14.949 --> 00:42:22.469 But when people do something awful, you know, like infidelity, because infidelity registers as, you know, a murder to your heart in terms of the emotional pain. 00:42:22.789 --> 00:42:25.829 One expects that the unfaithful partner should have this remorse. 00:42:25.989 --> 00:42:31.909 Because in our idea as humans, that if people show remorse, then they won't do this again. 00:42:32.549 --> 00:42:39.269 We're right about this to a point, because I really feel like if suffering alone changed our behavior, we would not have prisons, right? 00:42:39.349 --> 00:42:44.069 Because people are suffering prison all day and they come out and suffer again. 00:42:44.389 --> 00:42:51.109 Yes, we need to experience the negative consequences of our behavior, but that's in itself is not the only one what shape the behavior, right? 00:42:51.190 --> 00:42:53.509 We need to be able to address those causes. 00:42:53.829 --> 00:43:05.190 So if the betrayed feel that the unfaithful is not showcasing those emotions, it's going to be a challenge for them to rebuild because why do I want to rebuild with somebody who doesn't feel bad about the consequences of their behavior? 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:13.750 So the purpose of that milestone is to actually help the unfaithful connect the dot if they're not able to do so, right? 00:43:14.069 --> 00:43:19.909 The action that they have made and the damage that they have caused so that you can facilitate this emotional expression. 00:43:20.230 --> 00:43:25.589 Because believe it or not, not every unfaithful partner is going to feel remorse, feel guilty. 00:43:25.670 --> 00:43:31.509 Sometimes you actually, as a therapist, have to facilitate that to allow to see if that's even there. 00:43:32.069 --> 00:43:42.869 Uh and the goal really is to make sure that this was done properly so that the betrayed get the acknowledgement that they're looking for and they can assess whether or not this is the person they want to be built with. 00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:56.309 Going back to the second milestones, the reason maybe that people desire to hear the story in so many details is because they maybe conflate it with remorse. 00:43:56.469 --> 00:44:01.029 Like if you're willing to share everything, it means that you're sorry. 00:44:01.190 --> 00:44:04.149 But if you're protective of things, it means that you're not. 00:44:06.549 --> 00:44:10.869 So you you brought up one of the challenges that people struggle with after infidelity recovery. 00:44:11.029 --> 00:44:14.789 This is assuming they actually did their job right and got the story. 00:44:15.029 --> 00:44:18.149 So uh one of the biggest trap is this revisiting the story. 00:44:18.230 --> 00:44:27.109 Like a lot of people feel like, okay, we discovered the affair a year ago, two years ago, and we're still asking, tell me again why this happened, and rehashing the details. 00:44:27.429 --> 00:44:37.670 I really believe the betrayed when they're trying to do this, it's either because they never fully got the story and they're still trying to chase it, or they got the story, but they're not. 00:44:38.230 --> 00:44:41.029 Getting that remorse from the unfaithful partner. 00:44:41.269 --> 00:44:43.989 So, what's the best way for me to get you to feel bad? 00:44:44.149 --> 00:44:47.589 I'm gonna ask you questions again about the awful things that you did. 00:44:47.829 --> 00:44:49.349 What do you where were you thinking? 00:44:49.509 --> 00:44:50.949 How come you didn't think about this? 00:44:51.029 --> 00:44:52.710 How come you didn't think about the kids? 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:53.269 Right? 00:44:53.429 --> 00:44:59.589 Because I'm thinking that if I ask you these things, I'm like rubbing your nose into it, and this will facilitate the feeling that I want to see. 00:44:59.750 --> 00:44:59.909 Yeah. 00:45:00.149 --> 00:45:02.710 Ironically, that doesn't always work that way. 00:45:02.949 --> 00:45:03.269 Right? 00:45:03.429 --> 00:45:05.589 It might work the first or two times to break that. 00:45:05.670 --> 00:45:10.230 And after that, then faith will say, okay, now you're just you're really not interested in repair. 00:45:10.389 --> 00:45:13.829 Now I'm upset because it seems like you just want to punish me. 00:45:13.989 --> 00:45:20.710 And even if I felt bad about what I did and was working on this to be better, I might feel like I'm not gonna get out of this negative equity. 00:45:20.789 --> 00:45:22.309 Like this will be the rest of my life. 00:45:22.389 --> 00:45:29.989 So what's my incentive to do the right thing if forever I will be defined by this awful mistakes that I have done? 00:45:30.389 --> 00:45:31.829 Yeah, I've heard that before. 00:45:32.069 --> 00:45:41.190 The person who engaged in infidelity saying, I accepted this line of questioning or this feedback for a long time, and now I'm done. 00:45:41.349 --> 00:45:43.989 We have to move past this torture in some way. 00:45:44.469 --> 00:45:51.829 And and and and sometimes it's sometimes it's actually

the betrayed is not doing this to torment the unfaithful. 00:45:51.909 --> 00:45:57.349 Sometimes the unfaithful is just really uncomfortable with facing the consequences of their behavior. 00:45:57.670 --> 00:46:00.869 So even a healthy level of that they are resistant to. 00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:11.269 And these are the folks in that uh book of Unfaithful and Unrepentant, and explains in that book actually their origin stories and why they struggle in delivering on those milestones of recovery. 00:46:11.429 --> 00:46:20.069 But bringing this back to acknowledging the impact, uh, an important step in that milestone, believe it or not, is getting a sincere apology from that faithful. 00:46:20.469 --> 00:46:29.589 Because a lot of times it's either that the apology was not made prior to coming to therapy or it was made more like a reactionary, I'm sorry that you're not. 00:46:29.750 --> 00:46:37.589 Or I'm sorry that you're a real apology cannot happen without truly understanding why I did this. 00:46:37.829 --> 00:46:39.670 And here's the damage that I have caused. 00:46:39.750 --> 00:46:43.670 So when my clients apologize, say it's not I'm sorry I cheated on you. 00:46:43.829 --> 00:46:48.230 You need to apologize for the specific damage that your actions have caused, right? 00:46:48.309 --> 00:46:54.629 I'm sorry that you know, because of my infidelity, now every day you look in the mirror, you're not, you you don't you don't like what you see. 00:46:54.789 --> 00:47:00.629 And I'm sorry because of my infidelity, you have to compare to yourself to somebody that you shouldn't even have to compare yourself to, right? 00:47:00.710 --> 00:47:02.469 I'm sorry because of my infidelity now. 00:47:02.549 --> 00:47:10.149 You can't be outside and hang out with your friends because you're worried that when you talk with them, you're you're gonna fall apart and now everybody's gonna know about our story. 00:47:10.469 --> 00:47:16.149 That the the betray needs to know that because they need to their pain is very specific. 00:47:16.230 --> 00:47:22.629 And if you're not able to articulate that you get that, that's going to be a really big barrier for them to forgive you. 00:47:22.949 --> 00:47:24.629 Those are great examples. 00:47:24.869 --> 00:47:34.230 I thought that compare yourself to someone you shouldn't have had to compare yourself to is a common one that I've heard people be concerned about. 00:47:34.549 --> 00:47:41.589 And and I would say the trap of comparison too, uh unfortunately too, the more advancement technology, the more that become problematic. 00:47:41.750 --> 00:47:51.909 Because way back in the day when we didn't have technology, you know, people um you didn't have the luxury of being able to look up information about affair partners, but now you can find their social media. 00:47:52.149 --> 00:47:57.109 And unfortunately that causes the betrayed to have more access to things that would further traumatize them. 00:47:57.509 --> 00:47:58.389 That's understandable. 00:47:58.710 --> 00:48:05.909 Switching gears a little bit, my inner nerd would like to know if there have been any methods for data collection that you've used. 00:48:06.309 --> 00:48:07.750 A method of data collection? 00:48:07.909 --> 00:48:08.069 Yeah. 00:48:08.469 --> 00:48:20.069 First launching point was doing my dissertation about, you know, uh the models, doing an overview of the historical models that have been utilized for treating infidelity and analyzing the gaps and coming up with solutions. 00:48:20.149 --> 00:48:29.670 So I feel like that was the first bulk is reviewing the literature of what's been happening in fidelity recovery over the past 50 years and critically evaluating that and figuring out the gaps. 00:48:29.909 --> 00:48:35.349 Then after that was really combining, I'm a big fan of uh multidisciplinary research. 00:48:35.509 --> 00:48:41.269 So I feel like when you're studying a phenomena, you cannot just look within when you're within with your discipline. 00:48:41.429 --> 00:48:43.829 You have to look with your neighboring disciplines too. 00:48:43.989 --> 00:48:57.509 So even when I developed my model, I you know, I applied an anthropologicalness, uh, anthropological and sociological ones, legal ones, as well as evolutionary biology, because I want to see all the different manifestations for it. 00:48:57.750 --> 00:49:04.629 So, you know, for for the for fellow uh nerd data collectors, do multidisciplinary versus doing one. 00:49:04.789 --> 00:49:07.989 And also don't be an armchair researcher. 00:49:08.230 --> 00:49:26.629 I think what helped me, what I what I felt was beneficial for me in my research is that I actually uh had uh 70 or 80% of my time was doing clinical work because when you're able to compare real life people with what you see on paper, things are going to click for you. 00:49:26.789 --> 00:49:32.230 And that's what's going to generate the clinical intervention, and that's how you fine-tune your clinical skills. 00:49:32.469 --> 00:49:32.789 Yeah. 00:49:33.029 --> 00:49:48.949 And and what what what I'm very appreciative of is that I've been fortunate enough to work with a lot of clients who were very generous and kind enough to want to share their stories, which actually in in my trainings, I'm I'm a big fan of not just telling you, well, this couple this or this couple that. 00:49:49.109 --> 00:49:54.389 I actually have actual footage, videos of real sessions, no, no script. 00:49:54.469 --> 00:50:01.029 These are real people, you're seeing the real model so that you can actually see those concepts in real day-to-day practice. 00:50:01.269 --> 00:50:08.789 So for folks who are interested in learning more about that, uh, I have a doctor series called Uh The Infidelity Chronicles. 00:50:08.869 --> 00:50:15.989 You see uh the model of systematic affair recovery therapy beginning at to an end with one couple so that you can see all these steps. 00:50:16.230 -->

00:50:23.029 And also there's a new podcast gonna be coming up, I would say, hopefully by the end of this year, it's called Resurrecting Cubit. 00:50:23.429 --> 00:50:33.509 And you will hear all uh the stories of the most challenging uh stories of infidelity that would help uh ease the anxiety of younger clinicians about doing this work. 00:50:33.829 --> 00:50:35.509 Oh, that sounds awesome. 00:50:35.750 --> 00:50:41.750 And where can people keep keep up with you to know how to access these resources? 00:50:42.309 --> 00:50:49.429 Uh it can be on my main website, tulalalsaleem.com or on the systematic FA Recovery Therapy website. 00:50:49.829 --> 00:50:52.149 Okay, and then you've mentioned the Eric books. 00:50:52.469 --> 00:50:57.829 Can you give a description of each so people know which one to start with or what they're really looking for? 00:50:58.149 --> 00:50:58.309 Sure. 00:50:58.469 --> 00:51:02.389 So the first book is called Infidelity, the best worst thing that could happen to your marriage. 00:51:02.549 --> 00:51:06.069 So this book has actually explained the milestones of recovery. 00:51:06.230 --> 00:51:15.429 This is really for clients to understand the steps of recovery, but also explains the model in a way that is accessible for everyone. 00:51:15.670 --> 00:51:20.469 The second book is uh Unfaithful and Unrepentant, Affairs Beyond the Hope of Repair. 00:51:20.629 --> 00:51:25.589 That book is designed for clinicians who uh maybe feel stuck sometimes. 00:51:25.750 --> 00:51:30.230 They feel like I'm doing the work, but despite my best efforts, my clients are not getting better. 00:51:30.309 --> 00:51:35.190 Or the betrayed partners who feel like, hey, I'm I'm doing my part, I'm forgiving, and this is still not working. 00:51:35.429 --> 00:51:40.469 So this book is designed to showcase that sometimes it's not the therapist, sometimes it's not the betrayed partner. 00:51:40.629 --> 00:51:43.429 It's the type of unfaithful partner that makes this difficult. 00:51:43.670 --> 00:51:52.309 It's really if if somebody's trying to figure out, is this, you know, is am I going to be able to rebuild or not, this would be a good book to rule that out. 00:51:52.629 --> 00:51:56.789 And the last one is uh deconstructing infidelity, causes in the myth. 00:51:56.869 --> 00:52:03.829 I would say this one is more like an encyclopedia for any couples counselor, anybody who wants to do uh real work. 00:52:03.989 --> 00:52:13.670 It actually not only highlights uh all the relationship factors that causes infidelity, but also all the individual mental health issues that could cause your clients to be unfaithful. 00:52:13.750 --> 00:52:18.629 So think of it really more of a clinical guidebook for infidelity recovery. 00:52:18.710 --> 00:52:20.230 It's more clinician-based. 00:52:20.549 --> 00:52:21.509 Okay, awesome. 00:52:21.670 --> 00:52:28.230 Is there anything else that would be important to highlight or mention that we haven't gotten to yet? 00:52:28.789 --> 00:52:35.190 Uh I would say if you are going to be a therapist doing this work, you need to do a lot of self-care, a lot of clinical supervision. 00:52:35.269 --> 00:52:38.629 This kind of work is very rewarding, but also very hard. 00:52:38.789 --> 00:52:47.909 Uh so make sure that you actually are aware of your own buttons, your own triggers, so that when they happen in the therapy sessions, you're not surprised by it. 00:52:48.389 --> 00:52:52.949 Well, wasn't that a perfect segue to the last question I like to ask everyone? 00:52:53.190 --> 00:52:54.549 How do you see self-care? 00:52:54.629 --> 00:52:58.230 How do you integrate it, or what do you recommend to your clients? 00:52:58.869 --> 00:53:06.230 No, I see self-care as something that, you know, you don't just do when you're you're feeling that your cup is full. 00:53:06.309 --> 00:53:12.469 This is something that's maintenance you do on a regular basis so that you're not operating from a place of deficit. 00:53:12.629 --> 00:53:17.989 Uh, one thing that I like to do is setting very hard limits between work and home. 00:53:18.149 --> 00:53:20.149 When I'm at home, I don't think about work. 00:53:20.309 --> 00:53:20.629 Right? 00:53:20.789 --> 00:53:27.109 If my mind is tempted to do that, I have clinical office hours in my head that I still keep within those limits. 00:53:27.269 --> 00:53:33.509 One thing that I've learned is this is related to the self-care between your clinical work as well as spilling over into your personal life. 00:53:33.670 --> 00:53:37.269 Especially if you're doing relationship work, I think you can utilize that. 00:53:37.429 --> 00:53:43.509 Whatever you see can either cause you to be jaded or can cause you to be really good at your relationship. 00:53:43.829 --> 00:53:48.389 Allow yourself to learn those lessons and grow from the experiences of your clients. 00:53:48.469 --> 00:53:55.109 And and and don't and don't uh don't be rigid about uh you know the interpretation of those stories and how you apply them to your life. 00:53:55.349 --> 00:54:05.269 But also make sure that you have every opportunity to have joy every place around you because life is short and we cannot uh we cannot just focus it on hard work. 00:54:05.349 --> 00:54:07.029 We gotta we gotta play a little bit. 00:54:07.589 --> 00:54:09.429 I think that's a great closing note. 00:54:10.230 --> 00:54:20.949 So important to keep things separate and to create space for your own well-being and recovery, no matter what difficult work we're getting into in this field. 00:54:21.190 --> 00:54:21.509 All right. 00:54:21.589 --> 00:54:22.710 Thank you so much, Dr. 00:54:22.869 --> 00:54:24.789 Talal, for joining me today. 00:54:25.029 --> 00:54:31.190 It was a great conversation, and I'll link everything we talked about in the show notes for people who are curious to learn even more. 00:54:32.389 --> 00:54:33.589 Well, thank you so much for having me. 00:54:36.389 --> 00:54:39.429 Thank you for listening to the Self-Cherapist Therapist. 00:54:39.589 --> 00:54:45.829 I hope today's conversation gave you insight, clarity, or a tool you can take straight into your clinical work. 00:54:46.069 --> 00:54:53.589 If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe to the show on YouTube and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 00:54:53.750 --> 00:54:58.069 It helps other therapists find the show and keeps these conversations going. 00:54:58.389 --> 00:55:02.869 Until next time, keep learning, stay curious, and take care of yourself too.