Full Transcript for Does the Bible Clearly Teach a Young Earth? Jeff Randleman VS Ben Stroup

our 05:12.028 --> 05:15.560 guests today. Yeah, super excited, super grateful to 05:16.060 --> 05:20.441 introduce, um, Jeff Randleman, uh, lead minister at Parkview 05:20.537 --> 05:24.003 Christian Church in Sedalia, Missouri. And I know Jeff 05:24.503 --> 05:28.219 through some of the writings that he's done at Renew. He's written 05:28.315 --> 05:30.078 some articles on the Apostle Paul, 05:30.975 --> 05:34.550 also on how Christians should think about nuclear 05:34.566 --> 05:38.220 war, also about scripture memorization. So a lot of important 05:38.720 --> 05:42.211 topics there. That's Jeff Randall. He's going to be leaning towards yes, 05:42.355 --> 05:45.400 the Bible does clearly teach a young earth. 05:45.801 --> 05:48.814 And then Ben Stroop, I'm also very excited about having him here. 05:48.862 --> 05:52.470 He's the lead pastor of the Nicholson Christian Church. In the 05:52.535 --> 05:56.069 Cincinnati area, and he's also written for Renew. 05:56.695 --> 06:00.294 Uh, one article, Rules for Humor in Sermons, 06:00.872 --> 06:04.599 uh, and, and another, Rules for Travel Sports. 06:05.049 --> 06:08.519 And, uh, great stuff, very, very helpful stuff. And both of these, uh, 06:08.599 --> 06:11.892 guys are, um, you know, they've done a lot of thinking and studying in this 06:11.957 --> 06:15.009 area, and I'm really glad that they're here to kind of help us to think 06:15.509 --> 06:18.880 through these things. Uh, honestly, we're not sure which one is going to go first 06:19.380 --> 06:22.659 here. Uh, I will say this, who's gonna go first? 06:22.966 --> 06:26.712 The first question is gonna be this: what is at stake here? 06:27.003 --> 06:30.673 You know, why is this important to get right? If we don't get this right, 06:31.190 --> 06:34.233 uh, what, what's at stake? So, uh, we're gonna do something never before done here. 06:34.346 --> 06:37.227 We're gonna do a coin toss. All right, so Jeff, I'm gonna have you, 06:37.421 --> 06:40.982 uh, call heads or tails, and whichever one, uh, 06:42.834 --> 06:46.828 you call, that you'll go. If, if, if the one you 06:46.844 --> 06:50.287 call is the one that is here, then you will go first. 06:50.853 --> 06:53.636 So it's very simple. Okay, all right, Jeff, go ahead. 06:54.866 --> 06:58.860 I'm gonna call heads. Heads! Jeff goes first. 06:59.458 --> 07:03.258 So Jeff, the first question is just 07:03.758 --> 07:07.670 simply, what's at stake here? Why do we want to get this right? Well, 07:07.799 --> 07:10.558 I mean, the question is young earth, old earth, 07:11.349 --> 07:14.979 and I think that that is a— that's a good mask or a good 07:15.479 --> 07:18.059 cover to put on it and make an initial question, but I think the debate's 07:18.559 --> 07:22.484 a whole lot deeper than that. I think what really is at 07:22.564 --> 07:26.109 issue here is the authority of Scripture and whether 07:26.609 --> 07:30.425 or not we can accept the opening chapters of Genesis as straightforward 07:30.925 --> 07:34.131 historical narrative, or if they are something different. 07:35.029 --> 07:38.334 If Genesis is describing real events like 6 07:38.687 --> 07:42.072 historical literal 24-hour days and a real Adam and Eve, 07:42.088 --> 07:45.184 and if you go on into Genesis chapter 3, you've got the fall, chapter 6, 07:45.201 --> 07:48.844 you've got the blood. If these are real events, then these set 07:49.213 --> 07:52.663 the tone. They set the foundation for a lot of the rest 07:53.163 --> 07:56.194 of the Bible storyline, and that puts a lot 07:56.258 --> 08:00.174 of things at stake because 08:00.287 --> 08:03.528 you've got the connection between creation and then sin 08:04.138 --> 08:07.428 and then redemption. Romans chapter 5, Paul talks 08:07.928 --> 08:11.537 about Adam. He talks about death entering the world through the first Adam, and if 08:12.328 --> 08:15.612 If you have things like things living and dying 08:16.276 --> 08:19.511 for millions of years before sin entered the world, then that changes 08:20.011 --> 08:23.570 our perspective of what death is and what its consequences are and 08:23.586 --> 08:27.219 whether it's really an enemy or if it's a consequence of 08:27.719 --> 08:32.471 sin. So, I think really the big issue is— I'm sorry, I didn't 08:32.971 --> 08:36.610 mean to interrupt. You're good. You're good. I think really what's at 08:37.110 --> 08:42.428 stake is our concern about biblical authority. If we interpret 08:42.928 --> 08:46.294 Genesis to fit the current scientific models, and I think you even said this 08:46.794 --> 08:50.162 in your introduction of the, the, what's, what's the current science of the 08:50.662 --> 08:54.513 day, it raises the question of where that process 08:54.641 --> 08:58.381 stops. If, if we can reinterpret Genesis 1 08:58.429 --> 09:02.025 through 11 because of man's wisdom, I don't know 09:02.041 --> 09:05.749 that I want to put my trust in something that is as fallible 09:06.249 --> 09:09.586 as my own thinking or somebody else's thinking. And then where 09:10.086 --> 09:13.678 does it stop? What's next? Do we throw out miracles? Do we throw out 09:14.178 --> 09:18.011 the resurrection? Where do we stop? So really, I think 09:18.511 --> 09:22.247 what it comes down to is it's a discipleship issue. If we can't trust 09:22.747 --> 09:26.163 it historically, then how can we trust anything else the Bible 09:26.195 --> 09:29.485 tells us? Now, I don't think 09:29.985 --> 09:32.919 that this is— I think there's good room for debate here. I don't think this 09:33.419 --> 09:37.012 is necessarily an issue that is going to be a salvation issue, 09:37.430 --> 09:40.946 but I think it does have some pretty strong implications on a lot of important 09:41.446 --> 09:45.009 doctrinal issues about how we understand sin, how we interpret 09:45.509 --> 09:48.798 Scripture, how we interpret death and suffering 09:48.910 --> 09:52.154 and how they're related to sin, and how we can defend

09:52.202 --> 09:55.333 the historicity of the Bible from the very first chapter. So, I think it's a 09:55.833 --> 09:59.427 pretty important topic to discuss and debate. 10:01.205 --> 10:04.409 Thanks, Jeff. Ben, what's at stake here? Why is this important to try to get 10:04.909 --> 10:08.170 right? Uh, well, I want to open 10:08.202 --> 10:12.036 by saying that, uh, I am deeply unqualified 10:12.068 --> 10:15.467 to be here. Um, I am just a guy 10:15.756 --> 10:19.018 who has dedicated his life to studying scripture. 10:19.532 --> 10:22.955 I am not a scientist. I'm barely a theologian most 10:23.455 --> 10:27.076 days. Um, and one of the things that I love 10:27.205 --> 10:30.863 about Renew and our commitment to the restoration movement goes all 10:31.363 --> 10:35.319 the way back to the beginning when they said, in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, 10:35.495 --> 10:38.910 in all things charity. And I'm willing to, 10:39.198 --> 10:42.853 to say like, hey, I, I see this as an 10:42.949 --> 10:46.973 essential issue in that no matter how long you think it took, 10:47.518 --> 10:50.692 I think God created the earth. So whether 10:50.804 --> 10:54.443 you believe that it took him billions or millions or 10:54.943 --> 10:58.806 thousands of years, that's not the point. We agree wholeheartedly 10:58.902 --> 11:02.292 that Genesis 1 says that God spoke the earth into existence, 11:02.677 --> 11:05.793 that he created it. It's not by accident. It's not by chance. 11:05.890 --> 11:09.681 None of those things. I just kind of over the years 11:10.181 --> 11:13.825 and through study and things I've learned have wondered, 11:14.242 --> 11:17.535 what if science isn't disproving the Bible? 11:18.017 --> 11:21.760 What if science is helping us further understand the story that 11:21.808 --> 11:24.951 God is writing? I love the quote from Francis Collins. 11:24.999 --> 11:28.653 He says, one of the great tragedies— excuse me— one 11:28.685 --> 11:32.515 of the great tragedies of our time is this impression that science and religion 11:32.611 --> 11:36.537 have to be at war. And I often think we almost 11:37.037 --> 11:40.367 do a disservice to students and to people when we say, 11:40.399 --> 11:43.331 well, science is wrong because this is what the Bible says. 11:43.924 --> 11:47.578 Whereas, what if we used science to help us further understand 11:47.690 --> 11:51.316 what the Bible says? They don't disagree. I believe they walk 11:51.445 --> 11:55.346 hand in hand. All of it is the story of uncovering how 11:55.475 --> 11:59.456 God lovingly created the world to 11:59.472 --> 12:02.105 be in relationship with us, his people, 12:02.282 --> 12:05.301 right? So I just want to make sure from the beginning we all, we all 12:05.429 --> 12:08.704 are in agreement. God created the earth. He spoke it 12:09.204 --> 12:12.863 into existence. He spoke it into existence to be in relationship with 12:12.879 --> 12:16.860 his people. And then there's room

for us to disagree 12:16.893 --> 12:19.987 here without Uh, without anybody, you know, 12:20.308 --> 12:24.026 casting any aspersions or, or doubting anyone's 12:24.526 --> 12:27.616 salvation. Like Jeff said, we're all, we're all brothers 12:27.728 --> 12:30.886 and sisters under, under the same tree 12:31.318 --> 12:35.950 of, of unity here. And I would tell you that 12:36.207 --> 12:39.476 I'm of the old earth creation persuasion, 12:40.309 --> 12:44.076 but I am convinced that the old earth creation 12:44.576 --> 12:48.021 persuasion can still hold to the authority of scripture Every 12:48.086 --> 12:51.662 word is God-breathed, useful for teaching, rebuking, correction, 12:51.710 --> 12:54.932 and training in righteousness. And we 12:54.997 --> 12:58.454 can understand it differently and still be faithful 12:58.520 --> 13:01.806 to what it says. All right, thanks, 13:01.886 --> 13:05.179 Ben. So let's go ahead and go into, uh, 13:05.243 --> 13:08.473 Jeff, a 5-minute or so presentation of, uh, 13:09.179 --> 13:12.740 of your case. Why, why do you think that the Bible clearly 13:13.240 --> 13:16.851 teaches a young earth perspective? Give just 5 minutes or so, 13:16.931 --> 13:20.446 and then I'll have Ben do the same. I really, 13:20.638 --> 13:23.719 I really like what Ben just said there, and that's, that's in my notes here 13:23.832 --> 13:26.384 too about where I want to start, is that, um, 13:26.961 --> 13:30.107 we have something in common. We all believe that God created and he's 13:30.607 --> 13:33.220 the creator of all things, and that is a very important premise that we stand 13:33.720 --> 13:36.911 on. Um, I don't think the question then really is so much, 13:37.393 --> 13:40.940 uh, whether God created, but it's how and when. Those are the 13:41.440 --> 13:44.693 two questions that I think are the most important. From a 13:45.193 --> 13:49.264 young earth perspective, I, I think that, that Genesis clearly teaches that 13:49.280 --> 13:52.937 God created the universe in 6 literal consecutive 13:53.354 --> 13:57.540 24-hour days somewhere around 6,000 years ago, as Genesis 13:58.040 --> 14:01.677 describes. I don't think this was billions of years ago or anything 14:01.790 --> 14:05.366 that's astronomically large, and that primarily 14:05.398 --> 14:08.606 doesn't come from any scientific argument or anything like 14:09.106 --> 14:10.739 that. It comes from my own reading of scripture itself. 14:12.406 --> 14:15.537 Genesis 1 is written as historical narrative. 14:16.623 --> 14:19.853 It's not poetry. It's not allegory. And you've 14:20.353 --> 14:24.128 got repeated patterns that occur in the text that point to it 14:24.628 --> 14:28.533 being a very literal— ordinary 14:28.726 --> 14:32.339 days is what it suggests. Genesis chapter 1, all the 14:32.839 --> 14:36.129 way through it, says there was morning, there was evening, the first day, or the 14:36.629 --> 14:39.464 second day. And what you see here in Hebrew is you have the

word for 14:39.528 --> 14:43.170 day, which is the word yom. And anytime in Scripture that that 14:43.282 --> 14:47.004 word is paired with a descriptor such as morning and evening, or with a number 14:47.504 --> 14:50.742 such as the first day or second day, it almost always, almost 100% of the 14:51.242 --> 14:56.261 time, conveys a 24-hour period. And I think that's important. 14:56.357 --> 14:59.822 It's something that we can read right from the text itself and 15:00.322 --> 15:03.111 see that he's talking about a very defined period of time. 15:03.832 --> 15:07.373 Then you move forward into the book of Exodus, and you have 15:07.421 --> 15:11.395 that reference in Exodus chapter 20 where God creates 15:11.507 --> 15:15.240 the— he establishes the week as a pattern for 15:15.288 --> 15:18.701 life. And he says that these are 6 days 15:18.733 --> 15:21.922 in which God created the heavens and the earth, and on the 7th day he 15:22.422 --> 15:26.184 rested. And that forms the basis for our week. That doesn't 15:26.684 --> 15:29.756 make a lot of sense for the Israelites to live by a week if those 15:29.853 --> 15:33.924 were long ages. I think they would have been specifically more 15:33.973 --> 15:35.881 6 24-hour days. 15:38.338 --> 15:42.058 If creation represents long ages, then the basis for something like 15:42.558 --> 15:45.442 Sabbath and the basis for our week, our 7-day week, 15:45.458 --> 15:47.077 becomes a little less clear. 15:49.179 --> 15:52.536 Adam and Eve, they're in Genesis chapter 1 too. I think that they are real 15:52.972 --> 15:56.539 historical people specifically created by God and not the 15:56.603 --> 15:59.150 process of an evolutionary procedure. 16:00.243 --> 16:04.017 Um, and probably one of the biggest reasons 16:04.517 --> 16:08.691 that I hold that there are 6 literal days, a relatively short time ago, 16:08.836 --> 16:12.386 is, as I mentioned at the very beginning, it's the idea of death, death and 16:12.886 --> 16:16.947 suffering. The Bible repeatedly teaches that death is the 16:16.963 --> 16:20.352 result of sin. Romans chapter 5, verse 12: Therefore, 16:20.481 --> 16:23.613 as sin came into the world through one man, death came 16:23.629 --> 16:26.825 through sin. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15, death is called 16:27.325 --> 16:31.272 the last enemy, and Paul is writing that in the context of real physical 16:31.577 --> 16:34.837 death. And if you have millions 16:34.885 --> 16:40.216 of years of disease and predators 16:40.392 --> 16:44.069 and extinctions and, and death happening through all of these different things 16:44.118 --> 16:47.457 occurring before Adam's sin, then death can no longer be 16:47.957 --> 16:50.658 a consequence of sin because it's happening before sin took place. 16:51.820 --> 16:55.777 And if it's no longer a consequence of sin, that changes the storyline. 16:57.190 --> 17:00.586 Genesis chapter 1, God created a process, created a world 17:01.104 --> 17:04.322 through a process that he spoke into existence that 17:04.822 --> 17:08.182 he called very good. We brought the curse 17:08.682 --> 17:12.313 upon creation through our own sinful rebellion, and that's 17:12.361 --> 17:15.353 why we're broken. Death can't be included, I think, 17:15.767 --> 17:17.323 in a creation that is called very good. 17:20.200 --> 17:24.064 Now, I, I think that— I think ultimately 17:24.323 --> 17:27.670 is science, as Ben 17:27.718 --> 17:31.100 said in his opening, I think the science is something that we can 17:31.197 --> 17:34.647 use to continue to study and to process and to learn more 17:34.680 --> 17:38.097 about the, the world around us. But I don't think the science has got all 17:38.597 --> 17:41.860 the answers. There are difficult questions for both 17:41.909 --> 17:45.440 models, young or old. And there 17:45.505 --> 17:48.778 are a lot of scientists out there that are continuing to study things like astronomy 17:49.358 --> 17:52.890 and radiometric dating and genetics and geology 17:53.164 --> 17:55.906 and all kinds of things, and they're coming up with a lot of questions and 17:56.406 --> 17:57.277 they're finding ways to answer it. 17:59.725 --> 18:03.283 My— ultimately, my confidence in scripture, 18:04.060 --> 18:07.440 um, is where my— that's where my faith 18:07.488 --> 18:10.057 lies first instead of scientific consensus. 18:11.097 --> 18:14.352 Science is valuable because it studies God's Word, 18:15.682 --> 18:19.418 but scientific interpretations can change over time as new information 18:19.610 --> 18:22.897 is discovered or as it's 18:23.397 --> 18:26.745 formed. God's Word doesn't change. I don't think 18:27.245 --> 18:30.673 we should ignore science, but I don't think that that is what we should allow 18:30.753 --> 18:33.238 to drive our beliefs about what Scripture tells us. 18:34.425 --> 18:38.433 So I think that the doctrine of Scripture, and specifically 18:38.481 --> 18:42.156 the doctrine of creation, I think it's important because 18:42.656 --> 18:46.315 it really lays the foundation for the rest of biblical history. You've got Genesis 18:46.815 --> 18:50.618 chapter 1 explaining why the world exists, why mankind 18:50.714 --> 18:54.182 is as valuable as we are, because we're created in God's image. We come with 18:54.682 --> 18:58.710 value, we come with worth, we come with, with dignity. We, we discover how sin 18:58.903 --> 19:01.938 enters the world, why death enters the world, 19:02.853 --> 19:06.677 and why we need a savior because of that. So here's in a nutshell, 19:06.808 --> 19:10.264 I guess, what I believe. God created everything 19:10.718 --> 19:14.653 that we can see in the entire universe in 6 ordinary days 19:16.127 --> 19:20.576 in a very hands-on, very relational 19:20.625 --> 19:24.138 way as he put into place something that we can 19:24.638 --> 19:28.362 see, that we can experiment with, that we can come 19:28.862 --> 19:32.113 to understand, that we can enjoy through the creation that

he's given us. 19:32.811 --> 19:36.638 And these are foundational to the Bible's grand story of God 19:37.138 --> 19:42.527 sending his Savior as 19:42.560 --> 19:46.090 being part of creation, but then ultimately to be the Redeemer of all creation because 19:46.590 --> 19:50.459 of our sin. It's about trusting God ultimately. It's about trusting his Word 19:51.230 --> 19:55.262 even from the very first chapter that he provides the most reliable 19:55.326 --> 19:58.490 foundation for understanding the world he made, the world we live in, 19:59.323 --> 20:02.526 and the salvation that we have that is accomplished through Jesus Christ. 20:05.740 --> 20:09.640 Jeff, thanks for that presentation of 20:09.656 --> 20:12.371 why the Bible clearly does teach a young earth. 20:13.992 --> 20:18.122 Ben, you ready to go with the other side of the coin 20:18.154 --> 20:22.075 there? What is the case for why the Bible does 20:22.107 --> 20:24.296 not necessarily teach a young earth? 20:26.687 --> 20:30.012 Like I said, underqualified. I— but 20:30.512 --> 20:32.949 here, here it goes. When I was in 7th grade, 20:34.821 --> 20:38.707 when I was in 7th grade, our English teacher made us memorize the poem The 20:38.771 --> 20:42.695 Midnight Ride of Paul Revere. And it's 20:43.195 --> 20:45.235 a poem that tells a very true story. 20:46.707 --> 20:50.793 Details are changed, the story works, but themes are repeated, 20:50.963 --> 20:54.194 words rhyme. I I would tell you— this is just my 20:54.694 --> 20:57.463 opinion, a belief I hold with an open hand that can be proven wrong at 20:57.543 --> 21:00.924 any time— that there are parts of Genesis 21:01.424 --> 21:04.818 and there are parts of scripture that can be read as poetry, 21:05.155 --> 21:08.824 as story. They're telling a very true factual thing that 21:08.840 --> 21:12.333 happened without necessarily the detail 21:12.606 --> 21:16.067 and preciseness of a 21:16.567 --> 21:19.801 scientific textbook. The point of scripture is not to 21:19.817 --> 21:23.638 record every historical scientific piece of data that 21:23.670 --> 21:28.068 it thinks we need, but the point of scripture is to point us ultimately 21:28.582 --> 21:30.717 to God the Creator and his Son Jesus. 21:31.696 --> 21:35.404 And so I, I am of the opinion that you can hold the 21:35.485 --> 21:39.305 belief that Genesis tells the story of 21:39.401 --> 21:43.703 God creating the earth in a way that doesn't disrespect or 21:43.816 --> 21:47.171 disavow the truth and veracity of all of 21:47.203 --> 21:50.593 scripture, right? So I would point to a typical, you know, 21:50.657 --> 21:54.416 typical old earth creation arguments goes somewhere like 2 Peter chapter 21:54.916 --> 21:57.677 3, verse 8, where he says, though with the Lord a day is like a 21:57.709 --> 22:01.018 thousand years and a thousand years are like a day. And he 22:01.082 --> 22:04.392 uses, he uses that phrase over and over again for us 22:04.892 --> 22:08.729 to understand

God is infinite. He's above time, right? In Psalm 22:09.229 --> 22:12.665 chapter 90, it says, for a thousand years in your sight are like a day 22:12.745 --> 22:17.097 that has just gone by. And again, not a Hebrew scholar. 22:17.162 --> 22:20.426 I know enough. You know, I tell people I learn Hebrew 4 days before the 22:20.926 --> 22:21.427 rest of my church does. 22:24.376 --> 22:28.404 But the Hebrew word yom is used as 22:28.598 --> 22:32.121 day, like Jeff said, but it's also used in different times 22:32.555 --> 22:35.929 to describe seasons or eras. In fact, 22:36.154 --> 22:39.914 even in Genesis chapter 2, when it tells again the story 22:40.010 --> 22:43.661 of the creation of God, it says, in the day that the Lord God made 22:44.161 --> 22:47.704 the earth and the heavens. He's using the word yom there 22:47.928 --> 22:51.312 to describe the entire period of creation, not just 22:51.376 --> 22:54.904 the literal day, right? I would also 22:55.404 --> 22:58.240 point to this in, in 1 John chapter 2, verse 18. 22:59.057 --> 23:02.457 John writes, dear children, this is the last hour, and as you have heard, 23:02.505 --> 23:05.969 the Antichrist is coming. Even now many antichrists have 23:06.469 --> 23:08.583 come. This is how we know this is the last hour. 23:09.641 --> 23:12.760 The last hour has lasted 2,000 years. 23:14.633 --> 23:18.184 And so I, I would say, well, is scripture wrong when it says last 23:18.684 --> 23:21.152 hour, or is he using time as a relative frame? 23:21.971 --> 23:25.908 I'm of the opinion that what scripture does is 23:25.924 --> 23:29.267 shape our theology and structure our theology, 23:29.765 --> 23:33.658 not provide scientific timelines and data. It shapes how 23:33.739 --> 23:36.989 we understand science. Science doesn't shape how we understand scripture. 23:37.683 --> 23:40.750 Right? In Isaiah chapter 42, Isaiah says God 23:41.250 --> 23:43.255 spread out the earth and what comes out of it. 23:43.785 --> 23:47.269 He's using imagery here to tell us that creation 23:47.317 --> 23:50.256 is a thing of growing and processing and changing. 23:50.930 --> 23:54.109 Right? In Genesis 2:7, it says the Lord God formed the man 23:54.238 --> 23:57.561 from the dust of the ground. He's not saying 23:57.658 --> 24:01.576 that he just appeared, but there's a process and there's a creation to 24:01.608 --> 24:05.347 it. And I, I, I know that a lot of times 24:05.524 --> 24:09.262 one of the first places a young earth creationist likes to go 24:09.310 --> 24:12.536 is to the, the death argument. And I think it's a solid argument, 24:13.001 --> 24:16.130 and I, I didn't have an answer for it for a long time. And I 24:16.630 --> 24:20.414 kind of was disturbed by that because what this means is it means that Adam 24:20.446 --> 24:23.367 and Eve lived in the garden where everything was perfect. 24:23.672 --> 24:27.443 And the problem with everything being perfect in the garden in the young earth creationist 24:27.507

--> 24:31.950 view— apologies to all of my rabbit friends— means 24:32.049 --> 24:33.673 that they ate vegan in the garden, 24:35.630 --> 24:39.082 and I just don't know how I feel about that because 24:39.179 --> 24:42.405 God gave us steak and chicken and 24:42.421 --> 24:45.814 it's delicious. Um, Tim Keller used to frame it 24:45.846 --> 24:49.447 this way in BioLogos. He would say the fall introduced 24:49.624 --> 24:53.047 a new kind of alienation from God that no creature had 24:53.080 --> 24:56.857 previously known. What— was it possible that yes, Adam and 24:57.357 --> 25:00.925 Eve didn't die Yes, people didn't die, but what 25:01.425 --> 25:04.988 if animals did? Animals don't go to hell. 25:05.052 --> 25:08.324 We've seen the Disney movie. They all go to heaven except for cats. 25:08.823 --> 25:11.933 But, but the argument being there was no death in the 25:11.950 --> 25:15.181 garden really means that no carnivores could 25:15.681 --> 25:19.457 have survived in the garden. And in Job 38 and 39, we see God 25:19.957 --> 25:23.417 clearly describing that, that carnivorous predators are a 25:23.917 --> 25:27.067 part of the cycle of his creation. In Psalm 104, we see the 25:27.567 --> 25:31.570 same thing, that death isn't always a sign of moral evil or cosmic 25:32.070 --> 25:34.945 malfunction, right? It's, it's tobe. It's fit for a purpose. 25:35.948 --> 25:39.037 And, and I, I come back to this over and over again. For me, 25:39.732 --> 25:43.113 this, this is all about the point of scripture, which is telling 25:43.161 --> 25:46.277 the story of creation, redemption, and rescue, 25:46.938 --> 25:50.682 and that God created the world and that it 25:51.199 --> 25:54.469 And there's, there's room for us to say we're not sure how 25:54.599 --> 25:58.113 long it took, but we know that when he did, he had 25:58.161 --> 25:58.793 us on his mind. 26:01.860 --> 26:04.876 Hmm, that was nice. That was nice. Thank you, 26:04.958 --> 26:08.185 Ben. I appreciate that. I, I had to turn down 26:08.218 --> 26:12.311 the laugh track on all of your jokes there, so forgive 26:12.360 --> 26:15.794 me. Well, I, I do them for my own entertainment, 26:15.843 --> 26:19.481 so it's all good. Right, right, 26:19.593 --> 26:22.625 right. So we'll go back in, 26:22.882 --> 26:25.513 in, in, in the same order. Um, 26:25.850 --> 26:28.641 everyone not named Jeff, um, 26:28.978 --> 26:32.620 let's ask Jeff any questions pertaining to, 26:33.390 --> 26:37.080 uh, his position. Um, and, and I'll, 26:37.240 --> 26:40.769 I'll, I'll start off, and then, uh, if anybody else has any other 26:41.269 --> 26:45.622 ones. Jeff, how do you deal with Um, the dinosaurs given 26:45.734 --> 26:48.083 the young earth, um, 26:48.645 --> 26:49.192 perspective? 26:51.428 --> 26:54.881 Dinosaurs, that's actually a pretty easy answer for me. The dinosaurs were created on 26:54.994 --> 26:58.552 day 5 if they were aquatic, which technically isn't a 26:59.052 --> 27:02.896 dinosaur. Dinosaurs are land animals, but the aquatic creatures were created on day 5. 27:03.154 --> 27:07.056 Land creatures would have been created on day 6, and they would have been created 27:07.556 --> 27:11.685 along with the rest of creation They would have probably been 27:11.717 --> 27:15.547 on Noah's Ark during the flood, at least at the 27:16.047 --> 27:19.122 level of kind, whether that's species or genus or 27:19.314 --> 27:22.744 the family level. At least at the level of kind, they would have been 27:22.776 --> 27:26.255 there, and then they probably started dying out after that 27:26.303 --> 27:29.781 because there would have been probably an ice age or something shortly after all 27:29.829 --> 27:33.756 of that water completely annihilated the globe. 27:33.981 --> 27:37.123 But they would have been created on day 6 just like everything else. And, 27:37.382 --> 27:41.194 uh, um, and fit right into that, that creation account 27:41.694 --> 27:45.071 with everything, which goes back to what Ben was saying. They are mentioned 27:45.571 --> 27:47.789 in Job, they are mentioned in Psalms. There's Behemoth, there's Leviathan. 27:48.454 --> 27:51.840 Um, whether they were vegetarian or not ahead of time, 27:52.180 --> 27:54.950 um, is one of the big debates. I, I think they probably were, 27:55.585 --> 27:58.691 but, uh, they were— they would have been right there in the created, the created 27:59.191 --> 28:01.856 order. Gotcha, gotcha. 28:03.185 --> 28:06.847 I've got kind of a 2-parter. Number one, 28:07.429 --> 28:11.021 if Genesis 1 and 2 were 28:11.069 --> 28:15.130 removed, we didn't have access to them, and you just had the science to 28:15.630 --> 28:19.577 go off— you believe that God created the world, but you didn't have Genesis 28:19.642 --> 28:22.860 1, and you didn't have the passage in Exodus, for example, 28:23.361 --> 28:26.472 and you really just had the scientific evidence to go off 28:26.972 --> 28:31.839 of— would you land more on an old earth or a young earth perspective? 28:32.339 --> 28:34.582 Is that part 1 of 2, or is that part 1? 28:36.360 --> 28:40.404 Yeah, I think I would still 28:40.663 --> 28:45.193 land on a young earth position from other 28:45.693 --> 28:49.187 passages of scripture. I don't know, again, I hesitate to 28:49.687 --> 28:53.490 put my trust in fallible mankind's wisdom. I would prefer to put my trust 28:53.990 --> 28:56.983 in what I see in scripture, and If I throw out Genesis 1 and 2, 28:57.128 --> 29:00.387 I still have Genesis chapter 5 where I've got the genealogies which 29:00.756 --> 29:04.112 delineate father and son and the years they lived in between from Adam 29:04.612 --> 29:08.464 all the way through. And then you've got more of those in Chronicles. 29:08.528 --> 29:12.622 You've got those genealogies without so much of the years in Mark 29:12.686 --> 29:16.845 and— or I'm sorry, in Luke and in Matthew. So I still think we can 29:17.022 --> 29:20.089 add up to a pretty recent creation

time from scripture. 29:22.270 --> 29:26.274 And part 2 of the question, let's say you have someone in your 29:26.483 --> 29:28.912 church, maybe a young person in the youth group who, 29:30.665 --> 29:34.523 you know, maybe they've been looking at the scientific evidence and they just really 29:34.587 --> 29:38.605 can't go with the young earth perspective, and let's say 29:39.105 --> 29:42.351 you've gone around and around with them. You've shown them scientific evidence that's, 29:43.044 --> 29:46.650 you know, that seems to indicate a young earth perspective, 29:46.666 --> 29:48.952 but they're just, no, the science is clear here, 29:49.403 --> 29:51.810 expanding universe, etc. Um, 29:52.741 --> 29:55.920 what is your next step for that person if 29:56.129 --> 29:59.549 that kid is starting to waver in their faith? 29:59.726 --> 30:03.467 And, and it, it's a kind of a nuanced question. I want you to assume 30:03.579 --> 30:06.791 that you're really not getting super far with this person on the 30:07.291 --> 30:10.307 scientific evidence. They're pretty much going to be an 30:10.484 --> 30:13.711 old earth perspective, and, and it's affecting their, 30:14.418 --> 30:17.717 you know, whether they feel that they can trust the Christian faith 30:17.798 --> 30:21.519 altogether. What's your next step for that student? 30:23.230 --> 30:26.166 Um, in, in that case, I think a lot of it is going to go 30:26.666 --> 30:29.650 back to, um, the reliability of the authority of Scripture. 30:30.344 --> 30:33.878 Um, if, if it's going to be one of those situations 30:34.218 --> 30:37.466 that, um, there's no way I can convince him and 30:37.966 --> 30:42.626 there's no way he's going to convince me, then, um, I I'm 30:42.642 --> 30:45.944 not really satisfied with saying we can agree to disagree, 30:46.874 --> 30:50.143 um, but at the same time, as long as, as long 30:50.176 --> 30:53.750 as he's understanding there is a Creator and that the Creator created 30:53.766 --> 30:57.276 with a purpose, um, that's, that's at 30:57.308 --> 30:59.985 least, I think, a step in the right direction. Um, 31:01.220 --> 31:04.650 I'm not satisfied with that because I think that leaves too many answers, 31:05.307 --> 31:08.833 um, too many questions unanswered, and I think that there's a 31:08.849 --> 31:12.523 lot of, uh, Um, a lot of leeway there for things to go 31:13.023 --> 31:15.733 kind of off the rails and for them to go off on tangents and, 31:16.054 --> 31:19.167 and buy into things that, that may not be spiritually healthy. 31:19.825 --> 31:22.987 Um, and I, I really think that we've got to come back to the authority 31:23.487 --> 31:26.534 of scripture. And I've got a point that I continue to point with that. 31:27.288 --> 31:31.252 Um, if I, if I think that we're not getting through, 31:31.942 --> 31:35.360 um, my, my main goal, my main avenue at that point 31:35.408 --> 31:39.227 is just simply prayer. Um, and not that I haven't been praying for these kids,

31:39.484 --> 31:42.644 um, in our youth group. And it's funny that you asked that because I have 31:43.144 --> 31:45.772 a kid that is a college student here at our church that, um, 31:46.318 --> 31:50.152 texts me frequently about questions about creation and about, um, 31:50.168 --> 31:53.617 about, uh, what has— couldn't have this happened, couldn't God have 31:54.117 --> 31:57.034 done it this way. And, and we've had a lot of those very conversations. 31:57.291 --> 32:00.804 And, uh, um, frankly, I don't know where he stands on, 32:01.221 --> 32:05.200 on some of those answers that I've I've tried to explain to them, but I'm 32:05.700 --> 32:07.414 just trying to do the best I can to make it as clear as possible. 32:09.082 --> 32:13.486 It sounds like there are, you know, really essential doctrines 32:13.535 --> 32:16.794 such as, you know, God created the world, 32:17.295 --> 32:20.978 uh, Jesus, you know, really did save us from 32:21.188 --> 32:25.767 sin, that we all, we all have the sin nature. Like, these are non-negotiables 32:26.353 --> 32:30.482 that in your estimation a young earth perspective can 32:30.661 --> 32:34.420 undermine But if that student can at least 32:34.805 --> 32:38.413 say, yes, these are the essentials, this is what I do believe, then you're 32:38.913 --> 32:42.006 still nervous about it, but at least that's 32:42.506 --> 32:45.229 an important place for him to be. Is that a good summary of what you're 32:45.729 --> 32:48.805 saying? I think that's a pretty good summary of where I would find myself in 32:49.305 --> 32:52.510 a situation like that. I also don't think that I would 32:53.010 --> 32:56.824 be content to leave it there. I'm going to continue those conversations with 32:57.324 --> 32:59.460 that student. Cool, thanks. 33:02.221 --> 33:05.608 And Ben, do you have a question for Jeff? Yeah, 33:05.849 --> 33:09.625 I'm curious, you know, what would you say is the 33:10.125 --> 33:12.212 question you can't answer, right? Like, 33:13.015 --> 33:15.572 what is it about young earth creation that when you think about you go, 33:15.733 --> 33:19.662 I don't know, we're gonna have to wait to find out? 33:19.711 --> 33:23.060 For me, I think the big question of that, and I do a 33:23.076 --> 33:26.830 lot of digging into this with a There's an organization that I'm on the board 33:27.330 --> 33:30.569 of that is a creation ministry that one of the guys there is big into 33:30.617 --> 33:34.115 astronomy. And for me, the big thing that I just can't wrap my head around 33:34.291 --> 33:38.976 is distant starlight in a young universe. And there's 33:39.024 --> 33:42.602 a lot of different theories that attempt to answer that, 33:42.811 --> 33:46.629 and everything from time dilation to gravity 33:46.726 --> 33:50.159 affecting the speed of light and God creating 33:50.191 --> 33:53.464 things with the appearance of old even though in a young scenario. 33:53.545 --> 33:57.900 And Um, all those models have some merit,

and I'm just not sure if 33:57.981 --> 34:00.648 any of them are accurate. I think we still have a lot of study to 34:01.148 --> 34:04.247 do, and I really, um, I really would like to know the answer to that. 34:04.408 --> 34:07.494 I'd like to know how a, uh, in a universe 34:07.994 --> 34:11.304 that's 6,000 years old, how I can see light from a star that's 4 34:11.417 --> 34:14.860 billion light years away or whatever. You know, that's, um, that was 34:15.360 --> 34:19.285 a hard one to wrap my head around. Are there 34:19.785 --> 34:23.488 exceptions to yom being a 24-hour 34:23.633 --> 34:27.158 day that, that could be significant in interpreting? 34:27.821 --> 34:30.961 And again, yom, the Hebrew word for day. Are there exceptions 34:31.155 --> 34:35.909 to that being a 24-hour period that, that could 34:36.007 --> 34:37.532 undermine the young earth perspective? 34:40.225 --> 34:43.702 Specifically grammatically, I don't 34:44.202 --> 34:47.857 know of any. Um, my, my language 34:47.987 --> 34:50.337 of, uh, my Bible language of choice has been Greek. I've had a lot of, 34:50.370 --> 34:53.709 of, uh, Greek semesters in both my 34:53.725 --> 34:56.853 undergrad and my graduate. I have not had much Hebrew except for, 34:57.399 --> 35:00.511 um, I, I think like you said, Ben, I learned my Hebrew about 4 days 35:00.543 --> 35:04.072 before I give it to my church. Um, that's, that's relatively accurate 35:04.572 --> 35:08.548 for me as well. Um, but I do know from what I've studied that 35:08.644 --> 35:11.371 in the English language, in my grandfather's day, 35:12.077 --> 35:15.302 it took a day to drive across the state of Missouri during the day. 35:15.542 --> 35:18.478 I mean, I just use the word day there in 3 different forms. 35:19.073 --> 35:22.398 One meaning my grandfather's time, one meaning it took a day, 35:22.526 --> 35:25.787 a 24-hour period of time during the day, the 12-hour 35:25.819 --> 35:29.915 daylight period of time. And in Hebrew, I know when you associate 35:30.415 --> 35:34.702 a descriptive term like morning and evening or a number, that's almost exclusively— 35:34.798 --> 35:37.947 I don't think I could point to a single example where it does not literally 35:38.447 --> 35:41.946 mean a 24-hour period. If it doesn't have those descriptors, then it 35:42.446 --> 35:45.577 can mean Genesis chapter 2 Um, in the, 35:45.802 --> 35:48.790 in the day of creation. There's no descriptor there, so that just means to that 35:49.290 --> 35:53.595 time period, that era of, of creation, when, when he goes back and re-summarizes 35:54.095 --> 35:57.548 everything in 2. But in Genesis chapter 1, though, those are descriptive 35:58.048 --> 35:59.557 of 24-hour time periods, grammatically speaking. 36:01.470 --> 36:05.557 Jeff, let me ask this, um, and, and then I think we'll, we'll transition 36:05.751 --> 36:08.380 to, uh, Ben. Um, 36:09.541 --> 36:14.272 don't you have to kind of buy into the fact 36:14.465 --> 36:18.128 that God

can make things look older when they're young, 36:18.706 --> 36:22.241 given the fact that when he made Adam, Adam was 36:22.741 --> 36:26.353 a baby mentally but was a man physically. Like, 36:26.434 --> 36:30.338 he was older. And given the facts of the creation, 36:30.530 --> 36:34.675 by the time Adam gets there, I mean, if we're talking 24-hour days, 36:35.013 --> 36:38.419 all the leaves, all the trees, all the fruit Like 36:38.564 --> 36:41.914 God had to make that on the spot. So don't you have to 36:41.930 --> 36:45.248 kind of buy into that? And, and kind of two-parter 36:45.312 --> 36:48.667 here as well. If you get that far, does that 36:48.781 --> 36:53.178 not solve the distant star dynamic? 36:53.243 --> 36:57.010 Because God made it all at this point, you may be able to 36:57.510 --> 37:00.642 see it because I made it old— made 37:01.142 --> 37:04.728 it look old. Excuse me. That very well could be. I mean, God created 37:04.760 --> 37:08.374 things with appearance of age. Adam was created as an adult. Trees were 37:08.874 --> 37:11.855 created fully mature with fruit on them, with seed in the fruit that had the 37:12.465 --> 37:15.963 genetic possibility of creating more trees from those seeds. So, 37:16.155 --> 37:19.316 so yes, he did create things that were, um, 37:20.792 --> 37:23.376 maybe you could say it had the appearance of age, or maybe you could say 37:23.456 --> 37:26.922 that it was completed, mature and complete, and that's where it was created. 37:27.451 --> 37:31.462 Um, the question for me comes if, 37:32.200 --> 37:35.859 if he does everything with an appearance of age but then claims it's young, 37:36.516 --> 37:39.884 Um, when is that just for our own benefit, and when does that start 37:40.384 --> 37:43.910 to sound a little deceptive? And I don't think that God's a deceiver. 37:43.990 --> 37:47.085 I don't think that he is going to try to fool us by planting, 37:47.662 --> 37:50.838 um, 65-million-year-old dinosaur bones in, 37:51.190 --> 37:54.414 uh, in the ground only 6,000 years ago for us 37:54.914 --> 37:57.557 to say, oh look, these are old. I, I think there has to be, 37:58.087 --> 38:02.835 um, rather than, um, a deceiving event, 38:03.510 --> 38:06.824 I think there has to be an explanation for that that maybe we haven't quite 38:07.324 --> 38:10.700 figured out yet. And that's where science continues to work, trying to find models that 38:10.764 --> 38:14.574 do fit what we see and what we know and what's been revealed through scripture 38:15.074 --> 38:18.296 for us. Gotcha, gotcha. Thank you, thank you. 38:19.073 --> 38:20.740 Daniel, did you have any questions for Ben? 38:22.733 --> 38:26.739 Yeah, um, so you mentioned that Genesis 1 38:27.870 --> 38:31.153 could very well be more poetic and less, 38:32.318 --> 38:35.725 you know, straight history, even less scientific, 38:35.741 --> 38:37.831 more, more poetic. Um, 38:38.843 --> 38:42.460 what are the indicators in Genesis 1 that it could 38:42.960 --> 38:45.315 be more poetic, that we should interpret it that way, 38:46.609 --> 38:49.650 especially given kind of the rest of Genesis? 38:51.430 --> 38:54.707 Am I able to phone a friend here? Um, as long as 38:54.756 --> 38:57.765 one of us 4— no. 38:58.267 --> 39:01.406 So I, I, like I said, I'm— I am no scholar, 39:01.794 --> 39:05.346 but I, I, I think there are places, right? 39:05.491 --> 39:08.126 In, in the Psalms, it's clear these are poems. 39:08.624 --> 39:12.197 In, in Song of Songs, it's clear these are poems. 39:12.423 --> 39:15.442 I, I can't answer grammatically. I, I fail here. 39:16.039 --> 39:19.433 Um, but I can tell you that, that people whom I 39:19.869 --> 39:22.370 trust and have seen, and, you know, people like the BioLogos and, and, and the 39:22.870 --> 39:26.510 guys who are in the older camp would say 39:26.639 --> 39:30.479 that grammatically and structurally it's possible to read that as poem. 39:30.640 --> 39:33.709 I, again, this is an idea with an open 39:34.209 --> 39:38.016 hand, so I wouldn't pound my fist on the table and say absolutely it is, 39:38.691 --> 39:42.837 but even what Jeff said about the repeats of structure and patterns, that happens 39:43.014 --> 39:47.766 in poetry and happens in prose and it happens in nonfiction 39:47.879 --> 39:51.194 as well. So I don't have 39:51.694 --> 39:53.855 a solid answer for that. Um, 39:54.899 --> 39:58.177 and again, I think it's— I, I want to make 39:58.677 --> 40:02.579 sure that I'm clear. Even if it is a poem, it's still telling a very 40:02.676 --> 40:06.194 true event, right? It's not, it's not an allegory. 40:06.387 --> 40:09.183 It's not a, uh, a parable. 40:09.263 --> 40:13.039 It's a, it's a, it's a story of a very real, very true event, 40:13.135 --> 40:16.670 a recapping of that. And here's, here's what 40:17.170 --> 40:20.672 an old earther might say. I've, I've heard this before. Um, thanks. 40:20.961 --> 40:24.357 And then, uh, Jeff, if you want to, you know, 40:24.437 --> 40:28.669 respond to this, but, uh, in terms of it having 40:28.685 --> 40:31.342 a poetic structure— day 1, 40:32.331 --> 40:35.661 um, the dark and the light, day 4 40:36.917 --> 40:40.685 filling it with sun, moon, stars— um, 40:40.863 --> 40:44.228 it would almost seem like day 4 could 40:44.260 --> 40:47.700 be seen as the beginning of the 40:48.200 --> 40:51.446 24-hour day. You know, that's when the sun, moon starts. Day 2, 40:52.306 --> 40:54.770 um, the, the water and the air. 40:55.545 --> 40:58.778 Um, day 5, you, you have the 40:59.278 --> 41:02.966 filling of it with the birds and the fish. Uh, day 3, the land. 41:03.486 --> 41:07.349 Day 6, you have the filling of the land with the land animals 41:07.462 --> 41:08.485 and with the humans. 41:10.334 --> 41:13.005 Um, poetic structure perhaps. 41:13.415 --> 41:16.913 Um, and Jeff, free to respond to that, but I think that might be one 41:17.666 --> 41:22.922 way in which an old earth perspective might

say, yeah, there's something— 41:23.018 --> 41:26.287 it doesn't seem to be as scientifically precise as the young earth 41:26.319 --> 41:29.699 perspective might suggest. There's definitely some 41:29.764 --> 41:33.305 parallelisms in those days, but you don't necessarily have to 41:33.805 --> 41:35.772 have a sun to have a 24-hour period. All you have to have is a 41:36.272 --> 41:39.185 light source, and we have light on day 1, 41:39.522 --> 41:43.386 light coming from God himself apparently, And a spinning globe 41:43.531 --> 41:46.983 creates the opportunity for a 24-hour day even 41:46.999 --> 41:49.809 on day 1. But I like the parallelism there, 41:49.953 --> 41:53.213 and it does speak to that, which is— you stole my question. 41:53.261 --> 41:56.874 My question is, I wanted to talk about the allegorical versus the historical 41:57.374 --> 41:59.587 narrative of Genesis 1. So since you've kind of already addressed that, 42:00.342 --> 42:04.757 my question would be more in line with the— do 42:05.257 --> 42:08.727 you see a distinction in life? You said that Adam 42:08.759 --> 42:12.367 and Eve may have had life that didn't die, but you 42:12.867 --> 42:16.937 have animals in the garden that may have been living and dying. So is 42:17.437 --> 42:21.435 there a distinction between plant life and mankind's life? 42:21.499 --> 42:24.937 Is there a distinction between animal life and mankind's life? And if so, 42:25.291 --> 42:28.851 what does that look like? I would say the answer 42:29.351 --> 42:32.898 to that is yes. My answer 42:33.398 --> 42:37.183 would come from know, God creates plants and then 42:37.683 --> 42:40.906 he creates animals, and then on the, 42:41.115 --> 42:44.115 the 6th day he says, let us make mankind in our image. 42:44.902 --> 42:48.833 None of the animals, none of the plants, none of, none of those were created 42:49.333 --> 42:52.893 in his image. The only thing that was created in the image of God was 42:52.989 --> 42:56.616 mankind. And so I, I would say that the 42:56.760 --> 43:00.612 life of a plant— because even like, this is a silly argument, 43:00.692 --> 43:03.872 but it's still part of it— Even if you are a vegan 43:03.984 --> 43:07.906 and only eat fruit and vegetables 43:07.938 --> 43:11.153 and things of the earth, those things die when you eat them. 43:12.366 --> 43:16.409 And so I think there's still a demarcation there that life of 43:16.909 --> 43:19.450 a human, the life of an image bearer, is going to be far different than 43:19.482 --> 43:21.583 the life of an animal or a plant. 43:23.117 --> 43:26.493 I think I would agree with you on the plant side of things. I don't 43:26.993 --> 43:30.401 think I can compare any of my kids to a celery stalk. Although, um, 43:32.304 --> 43:35.433 no, I wouldn't compare them to a stalk of celery at all. Um, 43:35.756 --> 43:40.017 but, uh, um, animals are described as having the 43:40.034 --> 43:44.034 breath of life, and mankind is described as having the 43:44.066 --> 43:47.483 breath of life. So let's leave plants out of it. 43:48.553 --> 43:52.312 Is the only distinction you see between the breath of life in animals 43:52.345 --> 43:55.723 and the breath of life in mankind that image bearer Um, 43:55.868 --> 43:59.188 qualification? I would, 43:59.606 --> 44:03.087 I would probably say yes, um, without diving too 44:03.587 --> 44:07.436 deeply into it. Um, but again, you know, we have a description 44:07.936 --> 44:11.027 of Adam being formed from the dust of the ground. We don't have a description 44:11.124 --> 44:14.640 of animals specifically being formed. Um, 44:15.334 --> 44:20.437 you know, there are— Jesus, Jesus refers 44:20.937 --> 44:24.435 to, to dogs in a less than positive sense, 44:24.531 --> 44:28.739 almost derogatory, you could say. Um, but he— but 44:28.867 --> 44:32.513 we'd have a harder time finding him referring to a person that way. Uh, 44:32.625 --> 44:35.821 he calls the— he calls them broods of vipers, 44:35.933 --> 44:38.824 you know, like he calls the Pharisees broods of vipers. 44:38.888 --> 44:44.027 Excuse me. And I, I think that— I think it's safe 44:44.527 --> 44:47.704 to say that God calls us to steward and manage and care for the earth, 44:47.897 --> 44:51.773 but he also would call us to an elevated view of 44:51.806 --> 44:52.921 humans over animals. 44:54.959 --> 44:59.465 Okay. So you don't— do 44:59.965 --> 45:04.038 you deal with the point of the day changing? 45:04.782 --> 45:07.178 Like, do you have a spot where you say, okay, 45:07.874 --> 45:11.192 this is when I believe the day changed from a period 45:11.692 --> 45:15.199 of time to a specific 24-hour 45:15.699 --> 45:19.213 day Does that day ever change in your estimation? 45:19.631 --> 45:22.249 Like, is there going to be a point in the future where a day may 45:22.281 --> 45:26.152 be a period of time? That's a 45:26.652 --> 45:30.778 great question. I think there's a couple of 45:30.874 --> 45:33.380 areas where this can be true. You know, 45:34.007 --> 45:38.183 the Day-Age theory is going to say, you know, it was the first 10,000 45:38.199 --> 45:41.155 years that this happened. You know, day one's the first 10,000. 45:41.556 --> 45:45.370 But there's also even, even just within like some less, 45:46.604 --> 45:50.273 less time-consuming areas 45:50.385 --> 45:53.959 of old earth creation, there's some understanding 45:53.991 --> 45:57.757 that, you know, maybe it's 7 periods of time and maybe 45:57.821 --> 46:01.266 right now this is, this is the, the 7th day where God 46:01.766 --> 46:05.289 is resting, you know, and, and eventually as the new 46:05.789 --> 46:09.365 heavens and the new earth come to be That's the end of creation. 46:10.758 --> 46:14.158 I don't have a very good answer for you 46:14.174 --> 46:17.808 as to what that looks like because I think 46:18.308 --> 46:22.000 there's a lot of room to kind of allow 46:22.211 --> 46:26.065 for different interpretation there. So no,

46:26.081 --> 46:29.294 I don't have a very good answer for that. Okay. No, 46:29.535 --> 46:32.925 and I don't ask just to grill you. No, no, no. Yeah. 46:34.016 --> 46:37.737 The questions that I ask, some of them I ask come literally from 46:38.026 --> 46:41.715 our Bible classes, from our young people who, you know, yeah, 46:41.876 --> 46:45.373 there's a sector of folk on either 46:45.421 --> 46:49.078 side of the discussion that has scholars and 46:49.174 --> 46:52.319 books and research and science, et cetera. 46:52.720 --> 46:56.072 And then there's the everyday Joe who's like, okay, 46:56.088 --> 46:59.649 well, how about this? Or what about that? And that's where I'm coming 46:59.697 --> 47:03.925 from to say, okay, you know, if, if we say the day here 47:04.119 --> 47:07.585 was a period of time, is there a point where the day is 24 hours? 47:07.698 --> 47:09.931 Okay, I got that. And then, you know, down the line. 47:10.672 --> 47:15.084 Um, and so when I think about the old 47:15.213 --> 47:18.820 earth view or the, the understanding 47:18.836 --> 47:22.083 of the old earth, I still come to 47:22.196 --> 47:25.764 that space of like, okay, what does that 47:25.909 --> 47:29.285 mean for the rest of it? You know, I think that's where we're 47:29.785 --> 47:32.333 getting to, like, what does that mean for where this is going to go? 47:32.397 --> 47:34.820 And you kind of touched on a little bit there when you said, okay, 47:34.900 --> 47:38.397 perhaps, you know, maybe this is the 8th 47:38.750 --> 47:41.205 or the final day or the 7th day. Maybe that's it. 47:42.103 --> 47:45.953 Um, interesting, interesting. Daniel, do you have anything? I don't 47:46.453 --> 47:48.665 want to take up— well, I have a question that I'll throw out, and anybody 47:48.681 --> 47:52.066 can answer this. I'm, I'm curious what, what y'all will think 47:52.566 --> 47:56.300 about this, but the Big Bang Theory Is 47:56.413 --> 48:00.355 that more friend or foe to the Christian faith? 48:00.953 --> 48:04.556 And here's why I ask that. The Big Bang theory— on 48:04.573 --> 48:06.897 the one hand, you could look at the Big Bang theory, 48:08.313 --> 48:12.154 the evidence that led people to 48:12.170 --> 48:16.076 that conclusion, you know, the expansion of the universe back in the 20th century 48:16.253 --> 48:19.336 when that evidence started being seen. On the one hand, 48:19.680 --> 48:23.184 you could say, well, the Big Bang theory implies 48:24.243 --> 48:28.143 an old earth, heavily implies an old earth, and so therefore it leads people away 48:28.255 --> 48:31.689 from the Bible. Or on the other hand, 48:31.705 --> 48:35.364 you could say, well, when the Big Bang theory started coming 48:35.476 --> 48:39.520 out, it was the atheists and the pantheists who did 48:40.020 --> 48:43.147 not like it. They were the ones that said, 48:44.238 --> 48:47.849 this is not good because this means that there's a beginning point 48:48.349 --> 48:51.957 of the universe.

And it was a lot more comfortable to think that maybe the 48:52.457 --> 48:55.798 universe had always existed. If you're a pantheist who believes that everything is 48:55.831 --> 48:58.462 God, or an atheist who believes that there's no God, 48:58.944 --> 49:01.361 a lot more comfortable to think that the universe has just always been there. 49:01.410 --> 49:05.475 So in light of that, Big Bang theory more friend 49:05.523 --> 49:06.965 or foe to the Christian faith? 49:08.979 --> 49:11.002 Can anybody weigh in on that? 49:12.702 --> 49:15.933 I think it's— I think it's more foe than anything else, 49:16.582 --> 49:20.553 regardless of which perspective we're talking about today, because the 49:20.618 --> 49:24.963 Big Bang as it is presented in 49:24.996 --> 49:29.846 scientific approaches in our modern era is 49:30.041 --> 49:33.423 a godless event. It's the 49:33.487 --> 49:36.644 creation, it's the beginning. I won't say creation because 49:37.144 --> 49:40.585 that implies a creator, but it's the beginning of our universe with no creator involved 49:41.085 --> 49:44.402 in it. And I don't think it helps either side, 49:44.661 --> 49:48.523 really. I think it's more of a foe to Christianity in general because it tries 49:48.555 --> 49:52.562 to find an answer to why we exist without having any accountability 49:52.594 --> 49:54.178 to a creator being. 49:57.460 --> 50:00.712 I would, you know, not to just be antagonistic, I would see it 50:01.212 --> 50:04.270 the opposite way. I, you know, I would say, 50:04.399 --> 50:07.715 okay, so clearly if we buy into the Big Bang, there is a beginning. 50:08.316 --> 50:11.854 And there's something that caused it. And so I would 50:12.354 --> 50:15.907 argue that it offers an opportunity as an old earth creationist 50:15.955 --> 50:19.555 to say, hey, you believe that this happened, 50:19.667 --> 50:23.251 this event happened. What if, you know, the odds of it being random 50:23.299 --> 50:26.450 are incredibly astronomical, right? What if there was an 50:26.498 --> 50:29.681 igniting source behind what caused that? What if there was, 50:30.341 --> 50:34.119 you know, the spark that lit the metaphorical flame here And 50:34.488 --> 50:37.809 I would argue that that opens a window to a skeptic to say, 50:38.259 --> 50:41.853 okay, see, like that. So, you know, he spoke and 50:42.046 --> 50:44.773 the earth was created. And, you know, 50:45.495 --> 50:48.705 we don't know beyond that. So I would call 50:49.205 --> 50:52.299 it a friend, but I, I've never met it, so I can't 50:52.799 --> 50:56.359 really say. I would— I would call it Daniel. 50:56.471 --> 51:00.178 I would call it an acquaintance because I don't know what sound 51:00.678 --> 51:03.961 it made when God I don't know what 51:03.977 --> 51:06.867 sound is, you know, let there be light. Like, was it silent? I mean, 51:07.208 --> 51:10.342 lightning makes sound. Like, come on. Um, 51:11.863 --> 51:14.629 I heard something. I know this is for them, but I heard something the other 51:14.694 --> 51:18.092 day that blew my mind as it relates to this. And we'll get 51:18.592 --> 51:22.329 back to this, uh, this show. But I— it was 51:22.522 --> 51:27.204 a philosophical point, which is change 51:27.333 --> 51:31.022 exists. And the fact that change exists 51:31.055 --> 51:34.831 is evidence of, um, an actualizer. 51:35.056 --> 51:37.610 You know, uh, change is, 51:38.671 --> 51:41.949 uh, you know, potential being actualized, 51:42.447 --> 51:46.785 right? So the fact that there is any change 51:47.285 --> 51:50.031 means that somebody had to do— even if we go all the way back to 51:50.531 --> 51:53.968 say, okay, there was a Big Bang, and let's take the old Earth perspective 51:54.834 --> 51:58.169 who made it bang? Like, who— what was before then? 51:58.281 --> 52:02.611 Because you can't have something come from nothing. So yeah, 52:03.317 --> 52:07.181 I don't know whether it's a friend or foe. Perhaps it's an acquaintance. 52:08.208 --> 52:11.335 That's good. Well, um, 52:11.351 --> 52:15.087 Jeff, what would you say is, uh, Ben's most persuasive 52:15.424 --> 52:18.038 point? And then Ben, I'm gonna ask you the same thing. What would you say 52:18.567 --> 52:24.395 was, uh, Jeff's most persuasive I 52:24.507 --> 52:27.463 think, I think the biggest thing that stood out to me from, um, 52:27.720 --> 52:30.033 everything that Ben said today was that, um, 52:30.467 --> 52:33.857 science— the point of science is to help us understand the Bible 52:34.290 --> 52:37.921 and not the other way around. Um, and I don't— I agree 52:38.421 --> 52:40.668 with you 100%. I don't think we throw science out. I think we use it 52:41.168 --> 52:44.668 to, uh, um, I don't know, a lot of people may call it 52:45.168 --> 52:49.416 the Dominion Mandate or, or something along those lines when God said to go 52:49.916 --> 52:52.488 into the world and subdue it. I think that means we need to understand it, 52:52.504 --> 52:55.867 and I think that means science has a definite place in it. And I appreciate 52:56.367 --> 52:59.982 your thoughts on making sure that we keep science as a viable means for 53:00.047 --> 53:01.248 understanding the creation we live in. 53:05.847 --> 53:09.098 Ben? I think, 53:09.870 --> 53:13.375 honestly, every time I talk to a young earth creationist, one of 53:13.391 --> 53:17.083 the things that I'm always blown away by is their commitment 53:17.148 --> 53:17.908 to the authority and integrity of Scripture. 53:20.827 --> 53:23.398 And, you know, Jeff embodied that well. And, you know, 53:24.378 --> 53:27.768 there are questions and I'm okay with leaving those questions. 53:27.832 --> 53:30.890 But like, I always admire the faith of somebody like Jeff who says, nope, 53:31.035 --> 53:34.755 this is absolutely what it says. And you're not 53:35.255 --> 53:38.070 swaying me. So that's a big thing, a huge example, I think. 53:42.746 --> 53:46.016 Good, good, good. Daniel, you know

what I appreciate out 53:46.516 --> 53:49.807 of both of them? Uh, as, as we started 53:49.872 --> 53:53.399 off and as we begin to land now, I appreciate that 53:53.496 --> 53:57.675 they both, um, even with their different perspectives, 53:57.853 --> 54:01.142 they both wholeheartedly agree that in 54:01.190 --> 54:04.480 the beginning God created the heavens 54:04.658 --> 54:07.484 and the earth. Yeah, I like that. 54:08.816 --> 54:12.437 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So as 54:12.534 --> 54:16.048 we as we close, you know, what is in black 54:16.548 --> 54:19.801 and white here? You know, what do we go 54:19.817 --> 54:22.992 forth with and just say, this is— these are the non-negotiables? 54:23.650 --> 54:26.760 Um, and I, I think it's worth pausing and asking, 54:27.177 --> 54:30.577 obviously, that God created the heavens and the earth. Um, 54:31.106 --> 54:36.158 what other theological non-negotiables do 54:36.658 --> 54:40.519 we have to hang on to that maybe you 54:41.019 --> 54:44.479 know, if we get too loose with the biblical interpretation, we could 54:44.511 --> 54:48.487 be in danger of loosening our grip on the— you 54:48.503 --> 54:53.409 know, I'm thinking the importance 54:53.909 --> 54:57.256 of the essentiality of all humans to come to know 54:57.320 --> 54:59.356 Jesus. We all are sinners, you know, 54:59.485 --> 55:03.108 having that sin nature from Adam and Eve. I think 55:03.608 --> 55:07.436 that is something we can't lose our grip on. Is there anything else there 55:07.936 --> 55:10.566 that we want to make sure that we say, hey, this a stake in the 55:11.066 --> 55:12.583 ground. We're not loosening up on this. 55:14.825 --> 55:18.310 I think there's a couple that stand out to me is that one, as you 55:18.810 --> 55:21.978 mentioned, that we are created. There is a Creator, and we are created in His 55:22.010 --> 55:25.466 image, but we broke that image 55:25.966 --> 55:29.430 with sin, and so we are in need of a Redeemer, and I feel like 55:29.930 --> 55:33.568 that is something that regardless of where we stand on this spectrum, 55:33.846 --> 55:38.533 we all realize that we need we need Jesus. We can't 55:38.854 --> 55:42.308 be restored and have access to God and to eternity without 55:42.808 --> 55:46.070 going through Him. And I also think that that means we 55:46.570 --> 55:51.054 need His Word, and we've got to accept the reliability and the authority 55:51.086 --> 55:54.780 of Scripture regardless of what interpretation you might put 55:55.280 --> 55:58.959 on it. We have to do it the best we can to understand it accurately 55:59.153 --> 56:01.568 and to live by it as much as we possibly can. 56:04.582 --> 56:08.191 Yeah, I mean, I would say I kind of have 56:08.352 --> 56:11.704 ready the 4 essentials are, you know, God created the world. 56:11.881 --> 56:14.976 God created the world. He sent his Son Jesus to die 56:15.024 --> 56:18.313 for us, to redeem us. And according to 56:18.813 --> 56:22.547 his holy and inspired word, which is the 3rd one, in order to be 56:22.563 --> 56:25.980 brought back to him, we need to be baptized and bury our old self and 56:26.012 --> 56:29.364 be given new life. I would say those are kind of the 4 black and 56:34.609 --> 56:38.215 Agreed. Awesome, awesome. Well, Daniel, did you have anything else? 56:39.810 --> 56:42.268 No, that was great. Good job, guys. Awesome. 56:42.959 --> 56:46.044 Well, again, Ben, Jeff, thank y'all so much for, 56:46.172 --> 56:49.644 uh, your time today and for, uh, just what 56:50.144 --> 56:54.262 you've shared. Um, almost every episode we have done, uh, I say 56:54.327 --> 56:58.029 pretty much the same thing, which is You know, it's evident that you 56:58.529 --> 57:02.421 have thought deeply about this and that you were thoroughly prepared 57:02.453 --> 57:05.691 and you've, you know, really thought through your 57:05.739 --> 57:08.704 perspective. But I also really appreciate the fact that, 57:08.960 --> 57:13.000 again, we come to agreement at the end of this, even with some 57:13.032 --> 57:16.077 of the differences of the view. So we 57:16.577 --> 57:19.540 thank you all for joining us here on Scripture in Black and White. 57:19.604 --> 57:23.306 To those who are listening, we thank you for listening as well. 57:23.451 --> 57:27.426 We hope that you have gained something from this episode, 57:27.522 --> 57:30.809 even learned a few things, some things that you didn't know. 57:30.889 --> 57:34.768 I know we've got a little bit of Hebrew and maybe even some Greek in 57:34.896 --> 57:38.247 there from today. So, uh, hopefully you all have 57:38.343 --> 57:42.559 learned as well. We're thankful for, uh, Daniel as well for, 57:42.687 --> 57:46.342 for what he's done in preparing today's episode. And again, 57:46.455 --> 57:50.821 don't forget to like this episode, share it with others, and follow 57:50.854 --> 57:54.477 us, uh, on renew.org where we have all kinds 57:54.509 --> 57:57.388 of resources and things. So thank you all for joining. 57:57.890 --> 58:01.209 We will see you next time on Scripture in Black and White.