Full Transcript for Testosterone: Do We All Need a Boost?

00:02:02.010 --> 00:02:04.090 like they want to do more things than they did before, 37 00:02:04.150 --> 00:02:05.879 and they finally feel like themselves again. 38 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.139 So what is going on here? 39 00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:11.560 Should we all be worrying about testosterone and taking a 40 00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:18.419 little tea on the side? Or is this toxic masculinity on, well, steroids? 41 00:02:19.659 --> 00:02:22.370 When it comes to testosterone, there's a lot of... I 42 00:02:22.389 --> 00:02:26.259 just want to beat my shit all day. But then 43 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:27.699 there's science. 44 00:02:32.300 --> 00:02:35.830 Science versus testosterone is coming up. If you have a 45 00:02:35.930 --> 00:02:40.150 testosterone curious friend, share this episode with them. Let them 46 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:43.889 know the real science on testosterone, which is coming up 47 00:02:44.090 --> 00:03:00.780 after the break. Welcome back today on the show, The 48 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:05.120 Science of Testosterone. Been in the news a lot recently 49 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:07.680 and all over social media to tell us all about it. 50 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:16.110 We have, of course, the beefiest, buffiest science journalist, senior producer, 51 00:03:16.169 --> 00:03:17.449 Rose Rimmel. 52 00:03:18.090 --> 00:03:18.370 Hi, Wendy. 53 00:03:18.409 --> 00:03:21.569 Hi, Rose. Let's just jump in. And let's look at 54 00:03:21.610 --> 00:03:24.389 the biggest, literally. 55 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:28.090 The biggest claim out there about testosterone, which is, Can 56 00:03:28.150 --> 00:03:29.729 it make you stronger? 57 00:03:29.849 --> 00:03:33.310 Bigger muscles, stronger. Bigger muscles. That's right. That's right. Which, 58 00:03:33.330 --> 00:03:36.349 you know, lots of people want right now. Could it help? 59 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.300 So I talked about this with a scientist who specializes 60 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:44.340 in studying testosterone. In fact, Wendy, he's responsible for some 61 00:03:44.379 --> 00:03:49.780 of the seminal research in this space. Was that a 62 00:03:49.780 --> 00:03:50.539 pun on semen? 63 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:52.759 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I got it. 64 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:54.020 Good, good, good. 65 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.349 I'm Shailendra Basin. And I'm professor of medicine at the 66 00:03:58.370 --> 00:03:59.469 Harvard Medical School. 67 00:04:00.189 --> 00:04:03.610 Schellinger said that early in his career, there was actually 68 00:04:03.629 --> 00:04:08.270 a big debate among scientists about this very question. Whether 69 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:12.210 taking testosterone actually does make you beefier or more athletic. 70 00:04:13.150 --> 00:04:15.810 So on the one hand, you had athletes that were 71 00:04:15.830 --> 00:04:19.970 getting into trouble for taking anabolic steroids, which are basically 72 00:04:19.990 --> 00:04:25.399 like souped up derivatives of testosterone. They're also sometimes called androgens. 73 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:29.620 So take the famous case of an Olympic runner named 74 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:30.639 Ben Johnson. 75 00:04:31.339 --> 00:04:35.040 This was in late 1980s. He was a sprinter, had 76 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:40.500 a record, broke the records, and he was using anabolic steroids. 77 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:44.350 He admitted to it, was disqualified. But it was all 78 00:04:44.430 --> 00:04:45.009 over the news. 79 00:04:45.610 --> 00:04:48.889 Rumors have persisted about Johnson, who set staggering records in 80 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:49.930 the past 18 months. 81 00:04:50.310 --> 00:04:53.850 Now those rumors appear to be confirmed. The implications are enormous. 82 00:04:54.350 --> 00:04:57.850 It's a very sad day. you know, for athletics. 83 00:04:57.889 --> 00:04:58.290 As a whole. 84 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:05.600 So even back then they knew testosterone could make someone 85 00:05:05.620 --> 00:05:06.319 a faster runner. 86 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:09.579 That's why you weren't allowed to take it, right? It's funny, like, 87 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.329 in the sports world, that was believed widely, so much 88 00:05:13.389 --> 00:05:15.110 so that the Olympic Committee was like, no, no, you 89 00:05:15.129 --> 00:05:18.709 can't take that, it's not fair. But in the science world, 90 00:05:18.990 --> 00:05:22.889 it was not yet widely accepted that this was even true. 91 00:05:23.779 --> 00:05:26.459 So Schallender brought up the case of Ben Johnson because, 92 00:05:26.500 --> 00:05:28.120 you know, this was in the 80s. He was sort 93 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:30.680 of beginning his career. And that made a big impression 94 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:34.240 on him because that same year that Ben Johnson was 95 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.930 disqualified for using a steroid, there was this paper that 96 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:41.589 came out by a respected endocrinologist that said. 97 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:46.889 There's no evidence that androgens have anabolic effects. They increase 98 00:05:46.930 --> 00:05:51.490 muscle mass or strength or performance. The implication being that 99 00:05:52.100 --> 00:05:55.860 People who are abusing anabolic steroids are misguided. 100 00:05:56.540 --> 00:05:58.399 There were some studies that I looked at this and 101 00:05:58.490 --> 00:06:02.250 found they often didn't really find an effect. But people 102 00:06:02.329 --> 00:06:04.730 in the, you know, the world of athletics, they would 103 00:06:04.750 --> 00:06:07.029 look at these studies and they'd be like, well, yeah, 104 00:06:07.050 --> 00:06:09.209 you didn't use a high enough dose. This is not 105 00:06:09.250 --> 00:06:12.480 the dose that we would expect people in the bodybuilding community, 106 00:06:12.500 --> 00:06:17.100 for example, to use. So Schallender and some colleagues, they 107 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:20.040 wanted to get to the bottom of this question. So 108

00:06:20.060 --> 00:06:25.560 they designed this great study. So they gave big doses 109 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.540 of testosterone to healthy men. These were guys in their 110 00:06:29.860 --> 00:06:33.759 20s and 30s. They got about 40 people. Some of 111 00:06:33.779 --> 00:06:37.180 them got testosterone, but some of them got placebo. And 112 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:39.100 they also had some of the guys lift weights and 113 00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:42.600 some of the guys didn't do any exercise. This went 114 00:06:42.699 --> 00:06:47.089 on for 10 weeks. Meanwhile, they were, like, monitoring the 115 00:06:47.129 --> 00:06:49.329 guys' diets, making sure they were eating about the same 116 00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:53.850 number of calories, same protein. So it was pretty thorough. Yeah. 117 00:06:54.209 --> 00:06:55.670 And they were checking to see at the end of 118 00:06:55.689 --> 00:06:59.029 the 10 weeks, did people's muscles get bigger? Could they 119 00:06:59.069 --> 00:06:59.589 lift more weight? 120 00:07:00.269 --> 00:07:00.689 Surely. 121 00:07:00.709 --> 00:07:03.990 It must work. Well, here's what happened. 122 00:07:04.529 --> 00:07:05.000 Okay. 123 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:09.939 So, first of all, everybody who weight trained saw an improvement. 124 00:07:10.509 --> 00:07:14.149 They got bigger and stronger. Not too surprising. Great. Thank you. 125 00:07:14.430 --> 00:07:16.189 But the effect was a lot bigger for the guys 126 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:18.509 on T versus the guys on placebo. So they had 127 00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:21.680 been doing stuff like squats with barbells. And at the 128 00:07:21.740 --> 00:07:24.160 end of the trial, they could squat– the guys on 129 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:27.300 T could squat 40% more weight while the guys on 130 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:29.879 placebo only 20% more. Yeah, that's right. 131 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:33.050 I mean, you– I know it's so hard to know 132 00:07:33.089 --> 00:07:36.240 what's real and what's not, but there's a whole concept 133 00:07:36.389 --> 00:07:39.879 in weightlifting around whether you're juiced or whether you're natural. 134 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.360 And you see these guys and so clearly juiced up 135 00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:48.019 with testosterone. Yeah. If you were here to tell me 136 00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:50.779 that this is all placebo, I mean, like... That would 137 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:54.139 be wild. Right. But okay. So it is real. It's real. 138 00:07:54.259 --> 00:07:57.930 And even the guys that didn't do any weightlifting, but 139 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:00.050 were on T, saw gains. 140 00:08:00.730 --> 00:08:00.889 Yeah. 141 00:08:01.430 --> 00:08:03.389 They, you know, they sat on their asses for 10 142 00:08:03.389 --> 00:08:06.470 weeks but took tea. They actually put on slightly more 143 00:08:06.569 --> 00:08:08.949 muscle than the guys who went to the gym and 144 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:12.680 lifted weights but were on placebo. But were

not, oh, 145 00:08:12.779 --> 00:08:16.019 not taking testosterone. Wow, that's how good it is. Which 146 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:21.199 is totally unfair. Totally unfair. Mm-hmm. So Schallender and his team, 147 00:08:21.220 --> 00:08:23.399 they wrote all this up and put it in a paper. 148 00:08:23.939 --> 00:08:26.000 It was published in the New England Journal of Medicine 149 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:31.500 July 4th, 1996. And it immediately changed the academic view. 150 00:08:32.340 --> 00:08:34.299 After that, nobody has ever questioned this. 151 00:08:35.320 --> 00:08:37.019 Yeah, and since then, there have been plenty of other 152 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.820 studies showing this and showing that you don't have to 153 00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:42.379 be a cis man for this to work. Researchers have 154 00:08:42.500 --> 00:08:44.799 also shown that adult women who take tea will put 155 00:08:44.850 --> 00:08:47.509 on muscle, as well as transgender men. And do we 156 00:08:47.549 --> 00:08:49.850 know exactly how it works? 157 00:08:49.950 --> 00:08:53.169 How is testosterone stimulating muscle growth? 158 00:08:53.490 --> 00:08:56.049 So we know that the testosterone will actually tell your 159 00:08:56.110 --> 00:09:00.559 stem cells to become muscle cells. And so that turns 160 00:09:00.580 --> 00:09:03.519 them into the fibers that make up your muscles. They 161 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:07.360 literally get thicker because of this. That's crazy. It really 162 00:09:07.379 --> 00:09:08.820 does work. Testosterone. 163 00:09:10.039 --> 00:09:12.299 Now I'm guessing we're going to talk about the risks 164 00:09:13.259 --> 00:09:13.980 later in the show. 165 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.360 No, that's the end of the episode, actually. 166 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:16.820 Great. 167 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.360 Go for it. Live your dreams. Hack your muscles. But yeah, 168 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.279 but before we get to the risks, let's look at 169 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:25.179 some of these other claims. Okay. So the next one 170 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:27.279 I want to talk about is the idea of testosterone 171 00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:30.909 making you more aggressive. Because a lot of guys online, 172 00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:33.029 when they talk about this, they make it sound like 173 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.440 you're going to go from like Keanu Reeves and Bill 174 00:09:36.460 --> 00:09:39.139 and Ted to Keanu Reeves and John Wick. 175 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:47.139 I would say John Wick was fairly even keeled. I 176 00:09:47.179 --> 00:09:50.679 don't know if he was angry if I were to 177 00:09:50.710 --> 00:09:52.889 get into the psychology of Keanu Reeves. 178 00:09:55.110 --> 00:09:58.299 But he was an ass-kicker. But he was an ass-kicker, excellent, yes. 179 00:09:58.789 --> 00:10:01.710 And there is this concept of roid rage, right? 180 00:10:01.750 --> 00:10:05.090 This idea you take a bunch of steroids, you get angry, 181 00:10:05.110 -->

00:10:06.070 you get mad. 182 00:10:06.250 --> 00:10:06.970 You get even. 183 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:07.870 Yes. 184 00:10:08.509 --> 00:10:11.809 Is it true? I talked about this with Justin Corre. 185 00:10:11.929 --> 00:10:16.529 He is a social psychologist at Nipissing University in Ontario, Canada. 186 00:10:16.830 --> 00:10:19.269 This is a hot topic in the U.S. 187 00:10:19.289 --> 00:10:19.629 Right now. 188 00:10:20.409 --> 00:10:23.090 Justin's watching the news. I like it. A scientist with 189 00:10:23.110 --> 00:10:24.370 a finger on the pulse. 190 00:10:24.389 --> 00:10:24.690 Yes. 191 00:10:24.929 --> 00:10:27.629 And actually, he's been studying testosterone and aggression for his 192 00:10:27.870 --> 00:10:31.850 whole career. And what he says is, like, first of all, 193 00:10:32.269 --> 00:10:34.509 there's a lot of reason to think testosterone is tied 194 00:10:34.549 --> 00:10:39.629 to aggression. You know, think about males, male animals fighting 195 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:42.759 for mates, like deer, you know, locking antlers. You can 196 00:10:42.779 --> 00:10:47.620 probably visualize that right now. Very classic example. And that 197 00:10:47.740 --> 00:10:52.320 is testosterone-fueled behavior. We know that because if you castrate 198 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:55.840 those deer stags, I guess, they no longer do that. 199 00:10:56.279 --> 00:10:58.759 That's an experiment that's been done. And, you know, when 200 00:10:58.779 --> 00:11:02.009 you castrate a male animal, you're basically taking away his testosterone. 201 00:11:02.590 --> 00:11:02.830 Yes. 202 00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:06.210 But the story of testosterone is a lot more complex 203 00:11:06.230 --> 00:11:10.049 than that, and that's especially true in people. And this 204 00:11:10.090 --> 00:11:13.090 is what Justin studies. So let me tell you how 205 00:11:13.149 --> 00:11:17.879 Justin studies aggression in the lab. Great. He has people 206 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:21.879 play this game with this super fun sounding name. 207 00:11:22.490 --> 00:11:25.730 Point subtraction aggression paradigm. We don't tell them it's called that, 208 00:11:25.769 --> 00:11:27.850 but we just tell them it's a computer game they're playing. 209 00:11:28.509 --> 00:11:33.970 Point subtraction aggression. Paradigm. Paradigm. 210 00:11:34.669 --> 00:11:35.009 Great. 211 00:11:35.570 --> 00:11:37.690 In terms of like how fun this game is, I 212 00:11:37.690 --> 00:11:42.629 would put it somewhere between like Pong and that test 213 00:11:42.649 --> 00:11:44.190 that they make you do at the eye doctor to 214 00:11:44.230 --> 00:11:50.200 check if you have glaucoma. Okay, okay. So we're a 215 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.600 far cry from Zelda. Yeah. How does it work? So 216 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:56.970 you get a keypad. It has a few buttons on it, 217 00:11:56.980 --> 00:11:59.759 and you've also got a computer screen. You're told to 218 00:11:59.860 --> 00:12:04.299 hit a button on your keypad 100 times. When you 219 00:12:04.350 --> 00:12:07.690 hit it 100 times, you get one point. And Justin 220 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:09.769 gives people about 10 minutes to do this. 221 00:12:10.350 --> 00:12:12.809 So at the end of the 10 minutes, you're going 222 00:12:12.830 --> 00:12:14.590 to get paid based on how many points you got. 223 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:17.230 So you get 50 cents a point. So if you get, 224 00:12:17.330 --> 00:12:19.909 you know, 20 points, you're getting 10 bucks, right? 225 00:12:20.389 --> 00:12:22.519 You press it 100 times, you get 50 cents. Got it. 226 00:12:22.610 --> 00:12:22.950 Okay. 227 00:12:22.970 --> 00:12:26.950 So people, they want those 50 cents. So here's where 228 00:12:26.970 --> 00:12:30.590 the aggression part comes in. Justin tells you that you're 229 00:12:30.610 --> 00:12:34.690 competing against somebody else in another room. This is actually 230 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:37.289 not true. It's just like the computer being random. But 231 00:12:37.330 --> 00:12:39.870 you're told that this person you're competing against can actually 232 00:12:40.070 --> 00:12:43.909 steal your points and thus your money and keep it 233 00:12:44.009 --> 00:12:46.940 for themselves. And you get a flash on the screen 234 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:51.700 when that happens. You can take points away from that person, 235 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.610 but you don't get to keep their points for yourself. 236 00:12:56.169 --> 00:12:58.990 So they can steal money from you. You can take 237 00:12:59.029 --> 00:13:00.850 away their money from them, but you don't get to 238 00:13:00.909 --> 00:13:04.149 keep their money. So it's like unfair. It's like a 239 00:13:04.289 --> 00:13:08.320 rigged game. Oh, it's just vindictive. Yes, exactly. Exactly. 240 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.519 So the only purpose of stealing points is to get 241 00:13:11.580 --> 00:13:14.370 revenge on the other guy. In fact, you're wasting time 242 00:13:14.409 --> 00:13:17.210 hitting a button because you're not getting anything. You're not 243 00:13:17.250 --> 00:13:20.429 getting any financial or any points. You're not getting anything, 244 00:13:21.009 --> 00:13:24.049 any actual reward from it. The reward you're getting is 245 00:13:24.090 --> 00:13:27.549 an intrinsic reward of you got back at them, right? 246 00:13:28.029 --> 00:13:30.509 Why would somebody take points from the other player if 247 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:33.679 they don't get the points added to their total? Because 248 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:38.029 they're pissed off. It sounds a little bit silly, but 249 00:13:38.070 --> 00:13:40.470 scientists have studied this a number of times and found 250 00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:43.330 this is a pretty good indicator of aggression. They've even 251 00:13:43.389 --> 00:13:46.409 found that in people who are violent in real life, 252 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:48.960 when they take this test, they tend to score higher 253 00:13:48.980 -->

00:13:53.480 in terms of all the revenge point hitting. Justin says 254 00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:55.559 he can even see this when he watches people play 255 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:55.980 this game. 256 00:13:56.740 --> 00:13:57.679 They're sitting back. 257 00:13:57.700 --> 00:14:00.360 They're hitting their buttons. They're cool, right? Hitting their buttons, 258 00:14:00.379 --> 00:14:01.139 hitting their buttons. 259 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:04.279 And then when they get stolen from them, when you 260 00:14:04.299 --> 00:14:07.350 see them get provoked, They, like, lean forward and they 261 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:08.429 start playing harder. 262 00:14:09.289 --> 00:14:09.769 All right. 263 00:14:10.009 --> 00:14:12.789 So now enter testosterone. 264 00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:16.320 The testosterone, yes. So Justin has done these studies where 265 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:21.620 he gives people a dose of testosterone and sees what 266 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:24.759 doesn't make them play this game more aggressively. 267 00:14:24.779 --> 00:14:26.149 Okay. 268 00:14:26.370 --> 00:14:28.330 Or placebo. So he'll have some people get either a 269 00:14:28.409 --> 00:14:32.029 testosterone or a placebo and see what happens. Wendy, what 270 00:14:32.090 --> 00:14:32.769 is your prediction? 271 00:14:33.779 --> 00:14:36.659 You know, I guess based on everything we've heard about testosterone, 272 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:41.580 one might expect that if you get a bump of testosterone, 273 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:44.179 it would make you press the revenge button more often, right? 274 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:49.159 You would think that. In reality, that's not true for everyone. 275 00:14:49.899 --> 00:14:53.179 So what Justin has found in multiple studies is that 276 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:57.419 it does seem to make some people more aggressive if 277 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:02.139 they've got certain personality traits. So he'll give these like 278 00:15:02.179 --> 00:15:05.940 personality tests and finds that for people who tend to 279 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:09.899 be more impulsive and more dominant, they're more likely to 280 00:15:09.940 --> 00:15:14.360 get more aggressive with this testosterone bump. Here's how he 281 00:15:14.379 --> 00:15:14.629 put it. 282 00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:18.379 So if you are someone who likes to have power 283 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:24.679 and influence over others, someone who's hyper competitive or someone who's, yeah, 284 00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:26.539 I won't even use any examples of people that I 285 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:28.519 would think are high in dominance, but I think you 286 00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:29.259 get the point, right? 287 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:29.360 Yeah. 288 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.279 Certain world leaders, perhaps? Right, right. I think probably all 289 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:36.539 of them. Right, okay. 290 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.250 You put them in this little lab, give them some 291 00:15:40.490 -->

00:15:44.549 extra testosterone, and it will do something to make them 292 00:15:44.570 --> 00:15:46.429 press that revenge. 293 00:15:46.129 --> 00:15:50.120 Button more often. But then if people had other. 294 00:15:50.100 --> 00:15:53.740 Personality traits, I guess lower on dominance, lower on aggression 295 00:15:53.779 --> 00:15:54.360 more generally. 296 00:15:54.379 --> 00:15:56.919 Didn't make a difference. It did not make a difference. 297 00:15:56.940 --> 00:16:01.340 This is for... Just cis men? I couldn't find any 298 00:16:01.419 --> 00:16:04.279 study on women that did exactly this, like tried to 299 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:07.600 take into account personality traits. But there are studies looking 300 00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:10.379 at aggression and testosterone in women. It tends to be 301 00:16:10.419 --> 00:16:13.379 more true for men that testosterone can increase aggression. For 302 00:16:13.419 --> 00:16:16.120 certain kinds of men? For certain kinds of men. 303 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:20.679 This is interesting because I think in the data, researchers 304 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.360 have also looked at this in trans men who take 305 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.350 testosterone as gender-affirming care. 306 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:27.139 And in some. 307 00:16:28.580 --> 00:16:33.799 Of those men, you see an increase in aggression. And others, 308 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.139 they didn't feel that at all. 309 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:35.759 Yeah. 310 00:16:35.830 --> 00:16:40.850 So again, we see variation in the human spirit, which 311 00:16:40.909 --> 00:16:43.409 I guess isn't too surprising. Exactly. I mean, there was 312 00:16:43.429 --> 00:16:48.230 this other study that had guys take tea and had 313 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:51.389 them take journal, like write journal entries about how they 314 00:16:51.409 --> 00:16:54.220 were feeling and had their partners or significant others also 315 00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:56.840 assess if they change, if their mood changed and found 316 00:16:56.860 --> 00:16:59.909 that like, It didn't happen for everybody. But a couple 317 00:16:59.929 --> 00:17:03.159 of guys had bad reactions. Like one guy had to 318 00:17:03.220 --> 00:17:06.019 even like leave the study because they were worried about him. 319 00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:07.519 And this is a study in cis guys. 320 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.599 Yeah, yeah. So this idea of roid rage, it's not 321 00:17:11.619 --> 00:17:12.319 a complete myth. 322 00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:17.119 It does happen to some people. And that is probably 323 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:18.160 what created. 324 00:17:18.849 --> 00:17:21.859 this story that for everyone, you take. 325 00:17:21.779 --> 00:17:23.380 Testosterone, you'll get mad. 326 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:27.640 But actually, it doesn't affect everyone in that way. And 327 00:17:27.700 --> 00:17:31.019 the science tells us that. When someone asks me, well, 328 00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:32.700 when you give testosterone, it's going to make everyone, it's 329 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:34.299 going to make them aggressive. And I'm like, well, wait 330 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:35.559 a minute, not everybody. 331 00:17:36.380 --> 00:17:37.059 Not everybody. 332 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.079 Up next, let's look at testosterone and sex drive. Yes, 333 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:43.880 will it make you a total horndog? 334 00:17:49.990 --> 00:17:50.289 Coming up. 335 00:17:57.569 --> 00:18:00.089 Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to 336 00:18:00.130 --> 00:18:03.450 tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday. 337 00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:06.170 They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird 338 00:18:06.210 --> 00:18:10.250 and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our 339 00:18:10.289 --> 00:18:13.349 brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a 340 00:18:13.450 --> 00:18:15.990 spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that 341 00:18:16.049 --> 00:18:18.490 you can use and some that you can't, but you're 342 00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:19.359 going to love anyway. 343 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:20.890 It's hosted by Ira Flato and Phyllis. 344 00:18:21.730 --> 00:18:24.799 Flora Lichtman, who is an old friend of the show 345 00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.740 and loves a pun as much as we do. Science 346 00:18:27.779 --> 00:18:30.960 Friday is on every day wherever you get your podcasts. 347 00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:41.940 Welcome back. Today we're talking about testosterone. 348 00:18:42.299 --> 00:18:45.279 Senior producer Rose Rimler has promised to tell us whether 349 00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:48.980 taking a bit of tea can turn us into. 350 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:54.059 Whore dogs, I would have said horn dogs. No, that's 351 00:18:54.099 --> 00:19:01.339 what I said. I said horn dog. I didn't say whore. 352 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:03.059 Dog. 353 00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:05.369 All right. 354 00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:09.230 Either way, how does testosterone affect sex drive? 355 00:19:09.250 --> 00:19:12.710 Okay, Wendy, you need to hold your horn dogs just 356 00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:13.390 for a minute. 357 00:19:13.450 --> 00:19:14.430 Okay, okay, right. 358 00:19:15.660 --> 00:19:17.779 Before we dive into that, I just do want to 359 00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:21.059 say that one reason people are really concerned here is 360 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.740 because of this idea that testosterone levels are going down 361 00:19:25.109 --> 00:19:25.809 in dudes. 362 00:19:26.109 --> 00:19:28.569 There's never been a worse time in modern history to 363 00:19:28.589 --> 00:19:29.690 be a young man hormonally. 364 00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:31.549 Testosterone levels are plummeting. 365 00:19:31.710 --> 00:19:34.390 A 25-year-old guy has the same testosterone levels as his 366 00:19:34.529 --> 00:19:36.490 grandpa did at age 40. 367 00:19:36.490 --> 00:19:40.539 Which is a problem. It's a massive problem in men. Yes, yes, 368 00:19:40.579 -->

00:19:44.089 the so-called testosterone crisis and whatnot. Yeah, so for example, 369 00:19:44.109 --> 00:19:47.130 one study looked at testosterone levels of men between the 370 00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:51.359 ages of 15 and 39 in 1989. in 1999 compared 371 00:19:51.380 --> 00:19:55.180 with men of that same age in 2015 and found 372 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.660 that the modern dudes had about 25% less testosterone on average. 373 00:19:59.660 --> 00:20:03.640 25% less testosterone, same age group. 374 00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:07.950 Uh-huh. Yeah, and other studies have shown, you know, different numbers, 375 00:20:08.009 --> 00:20:09.630 but similarly, like this decline. 376 00:20:10.289 --> 00:20:10.789 Interesting. 377 00:20:10.809 --> 00:20:13.609 So what's causing it? There's something in the water? I mean, 378 00:20:13.630 --> 00:20:16.630 a lot of people point to, you know, endocrine disrupting chemicals. 379 00:20:17.829 --> 00:20:23.640 The microplastics. Yeah, maybe stress, a more stressed out society, 380 00:20:23.779 --> 00:20:27.079 a more sedentary society. These have all been floated around. 381 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:30.480 But the point, I think, for our conversation today is 382 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:34.599 that with this sort of decline in testosterone levels broadly, 383 00:20:34.779 --> 00:20:39.650 it could be pushing more men into the too low category. 384 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.200 And by too low, you mean when scientists study large 385 00:20:43.240 --> 00:20:47.740 groups of people and compare the health of a group 386 00:20:47.779 --> 00:20:51.160 of men, they find that there is a cutoff point 387 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.559 where your testosterone is low and it starts to be 388 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:57.680 associated with various health effects. 389 00:20:58.089 --> 00:20:58.630 Is that right? 390 00:20:58.890 --> 00:20:59.049 Right. 391 00:20:59.069 --> 00:21:02.670 I mean, the normal healthy range of testosterone is pretty broad, actually, 392 00:21:03.230 --> 00:21:06.339 but down below a certain... threshold, you can get symptoms 393 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:11.529 like low energy, feeling down, getting crappy sleep, gaining weight, 394 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:14.670 brain fog, and low libido. So the question is, if 395 00:21:14.710 --> 00:21:16.809 that's you, should you take tea? 396 00:21:16.970 --> 00:21:17.250 Right. 397 00:21:17.609 --> 00:21:19.440 Will it help? So the best study we have on 398 00:21:19.480 --> 00:21:22.619 this comes from this group of studies called the Tea Trials, 399 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.299 led partly by our old friend Shalinder Pasin. We heard 400 00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:28.710 from him earlier in the show. He and his colleagues 401 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:31.559 in the 2000s, they enrolled this big group of older 402 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.660 guys with clinically low testosterone. And they had them take 403 00:21:35.700 --> 00:21:39.079 either a testosterone gel or a placebo

gel. They would 404 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.180 rub it on their backs every day for a year. 405 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:46.039 And they were tracking stuff like their sex life. How 406 00:21:46.059 --> 00:21:48.279 do you find out about that? You can't sit in 407 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:49.539 the bedroom and take notes. 408 00:21:49.819 --> 00:21:52.480 So we had these diaries. So people jotted down for 409 00:21:52.500 --> 00:21:55.519 a whole week. All types of sexual activity, you know, 410 00:21:55.539 --> 00:22:01.339 whether they're masturbated or partnered activity or just whether they 411 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.279 watched an X-rated video or Playboy magazine, etc. 412 00:22:05.099 --> 00:22:08.769 So cute that he says X-rated and not porn. Really 413 00:22:08.809 --> 00:22:13.130 dates the study. I guess they got a video cassette. 414 00:22:13.910 --> 00:22:18.069 Yeah, exactly. Went to the video store with a sticky floor. 415 00:22:18.789 --> 00:22:19.730 So what did he find? 416 00:22:20.269 --> 00:22:23.819 All types of activities were recorded. And those diaries showed 417 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:27.759 clearly that all types of sexual activities improved. 418 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:31.839 So the guys in the testosterone arm at the end 419 00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:35.180 of the trial, about 20% of them reported that their 420 00:22:35.289 --> 00:22:38.289 libido was much better. And that's compared with less than 421 00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:39.990 10% in the placebo group. 422 00:22:40.369 --> 00:22:45.609 Uh-huh. Testosterone did improve when they had low testosterone, clinically low. 423 00:22:46.109 --> 00:22:48.930 And that You know, really makes sense because we know 424 00:22:49.009 --> 00:22:52.349 that men who have severely low testosterone, like guys with 425 00:22:52.410 --> 00:22:56.170 Klinefelter syndrome, that's where you're born XXY instead of XY, 426 00:22:56.869 --> 00:22:59.170 they make very little testosterone. One of the symptoms of 427 00:22:59.190 --> 00:23:03.299 that syndrome is a very low or non-existent sex drive. 428 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:07.859 We also know that trans men often report a boost 429 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:09.900 in their sex drive when they start taking tea, at 430 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:12.359 least at first. It tends to settle down over time. 431 00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:17.539 So it totally makes sense. Yeah, so I think the take-home. 432 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.829 Is really if you have clinically low levels of testosterone, 433 00:23:21.529 --> 00:23:25.660 taking more. to get you into that healthy range can 434 00:23:25.700 --> 00:23:30.559 boost your sex drive. But if you are already in 435 00:23:30.619 --> 00:23:34.440 the healthy range, and like you mentioned, guys in the 436 00:23:34.579 --> 00:23:37.369 healthy range of testosterone, some have higher, some have lower, 437 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:41.930 all in the healthy range. And we know from study 438 00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:46.390 after study after study that when you ask those guys 439 00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:49.130 in the healthy range, how often do you think about sex? 440 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:50.450 How often are you having sex? How often are you 441 00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:52.890 watching X-rated videos? 442 00:23:54.109 --> 00:23:56.730 And then you test their testosterone, having a little bit 443 00:23:56.809 --> 00:23:59.990 more or a little bit less actually isn't correlated with 444 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:00.980 a higher sex drive. 445 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:03.859 That's right. Yeah, that's another really good clue that if 446 00:24:03.900 --> 00:24:06.059 you're in the normal testosterone range, it doesn't really matter. 447 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:09.579 And this brings us to our next question, which is, 448 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:13.890 does testosterone help women with their sex drive? So some 449 00:24:13.930 --> 00:24:16.549 of our best data on women and testosterone and sex 450 00:24:16.589 --> 00:24:20.230 drive come from East Germany, back before the collapse of 451 00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:23.640 the Soviet Union. So back then the state was actually 452 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.460 giving their athletes steroids in order to win more Olympic medals. 453 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:31.339 And they were giving their female athletes especially high doses 454 00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.750 of something called terabinol and documenting the effects. And those 455 00:24:36.789 --> 00:24:41.470 documents became available, you know, later on. Right. And they 456 00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:47.440 show that women getting these big doses of testosterone– essentially, 457 00:24:47.829 --> 00:24:52.609 got super horny. In fact, some women reported that this 458 00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:57.190 was unbearable and asked to quit sports rather than keep 459 00:24:57.230 --> 00:24:57.640 taking it. 460 00:24:57.650 --> 00:25:00.769 Wow. I know. 461 00:25:00.809 --> 00:25:04.349 And a more modern survey of female users of anabolic 462 00:25:04.369 --> 00:25:07.990 steroids that I found surveyed them and asked them about 463 00:25:08.029 --> 00:25:10.230 their sex drive. And a lot of them said the 464 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:12.319 same thing, that it really made their sex drive go up, 465 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:14.859 but they didn't necessarily like it all that much. 466 00:25:15.970 --> 00:25:17.869 Now, both, I mean, I don't think we want to 467 00:25:17.910 --> 00:25:20.569 call what happened in East Germany a study, but in 468 00:25:20.589 --> 00:25:23.089 both cases, there's no placebo control. 469 00:25:23.109 --> 00:25:28.039 No. I mean, these are high doses, though. Like, we're 470 00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:31.500 talking about doses where you can grow more body hair, 471 00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:34.000 your voice can deepen, you can get an enlargement of 472 00:25:34.019 --> 00:25:38.859 the clitoris. The doses that I think most of the 473 00:25:38.940 --> 00:25:41.500

influencers are talking about when they're like, you're a woman 474 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.869 with low sex drive, you should get on testosterone, they're 475 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:47.619 much lower. And we do have a placebo-controlled trial to 476 00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:50.920 talk about when it comes to that. Okay. There's a 477 00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:54.299 drug company that tested this. They had women who said 478 00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:58.240 that they had a distressingly low libido, randomized them to 479 00:25:58.259 --> 00:26:01.349 wear either a testosterone patch or a placebo patch for 480 00:26:01.369 --> 00:26:05.369 a year. These were all post-menopausal women. The women who 481 00:26:05.450 --> 00:26:10.430 wore the testosterone patch reported about one more satisfying sexual 482 00:26:10.470 --> 00:26:15.130 experience per month. Okay, one more sexually satisfying experience per month. 483 00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:19.150 I guess not kicking that out of bed. I'm not sure. 484 00:26:19.170 --> 00:26:19.589 No miracles. 485 00:26:19.609 --> 00:26:22.390 No miracles. But can help. But can help. All right. 486 00:26:22.809 --> 00:26:25.890 And just quickly, one final thing I want to look at, 487 00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:28.880 one final claim that I see everywhere is this idea 488 00:26:28.950 --> 00:26:31.680 that taking testosterone will, like, put a lot more pep 489 00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:34.640 back in your step, give you a lot more energy. Yes. 490 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:37.400 So this is another thing that Challender and his team 491 00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:40.160 looked at in the T-Trials, people's energy. 492 00:26:40.180 --> 00:26:41.339 Mm-hmm. 493 00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:45.039 And other studies have looked at this as well. And 494 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:49.240 the result is always kind of like sad trombone, you know? 495 00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:50.440 Aw. 496 00:26:52.059 --> 00:26:52.200 Aw. 497 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:56.289 In what way? Put some numbers behind our sad trombone. 498 00:26:56.690 --> 00:27:00.589 For example, in the T trials, the team measured what 499 00:27:00.609 --> 00:27:04.029 they called vitality by giving guys a questionnaire that asked 500 00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:07.640 them stuff like how tired did they feel? How functional 501 00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:11.059 were they day to day? A max score on this 502 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:15.200 questionnaire would be 108 points. And the team decided before 503 00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:17.690 the study that a meaningful effect would be an improvement 504 00:27:17.730 --> 00:27:21.769 of four points. Okay. It didn't clear that hurdle. They 505 00:27:21.809 --> 00:27:24.130 saw a little bit of improvement, but the effect was 506 00:27:24.269 --> 00:27:27.849 really small. And Schallender said that surprises him because when 507 00:27:27.869 --> 00:27:33.400 he treats patients with low T and gives them testosterone supplementation, 508 00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.619 he says they often tell him that they feel more 509 00:27:35.660 --> 00:27:37.599 energetic after they start therapy. 510 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:40.890 And, you know, I've been the author on many of 511 00:27:40.930 --> 00:27:45.509 these studies, and I'm always surprised by such a small effect. 512 00:27:45.730 --> 00:27:46.910 Yeah, it's very underwhelming. 513 00:27:47.029 --> 00:27:48.319 Very underwhelming, isn't it? 514 00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:54.670 Well, the placebo is a wonderful thing, right? Yeah, for 515 00:27:54.710 --> 00:27:57.369 all kinds of people, for all kinds of things. You hear, like, 516 00:27:57.430 --> 00:27:59.960 it's basically going to cure everything that's wrong with you. And, 517 00:27:59.970 --> 00:28:02.299 you know, we hear about it so much for menopause symptoms. 518 00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:04.660 This is something that came up a lot, like your 519 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.180 brain fog and, you know, your focus and all that. 520 00:28:08.089 --> 00:28:09.990 We don't actually have any research to back that up, 521 00:28:10.009 --> 00:28:12.869 but we do have studies that don't have control groups, 522 00:28:13.130 --> 00:28:15.269 and you really need one because of the placebo effect 523 00:28:15.509 --> 00:28:19.829 from testosterone. Or they're funded by some clinic that's shilling testosterone. 524 00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:24.369 This is what you're finding in the postmenopausal research space 525 00:28:24.390 --> 00:28:24.670 as well. 526 00:28:24.690 --> 00:28:27.490 That's right. So then what are the risks? What are 527 00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:29.650 the risks? Is it time to get to the risks? 528 00:28:29.690 --> 00:28:34.059 You've mentioned your clitoris might enlarge. 529 00:28:34.279 --> 00:28:38.730 What else could happen? So... In people who have testicles, 530 00:28:38.869 --> 00:28:41.369 if you take testosterone, you know, give yourself a big 531 00:28:41.390 --> 00:28:44.420 dose of testosterone, you know, chronically, you take it all 532 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:47.220 the time, your brain is going to sense that you 533 00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:52.059 have plenty of testosterone and it'll stop making your own testosterone. 534 00:28:52.099 --> 00:28:54.630 It'll stop the homegrown stuff. And that brings us to 535 00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:57.910 our biggest, most obvious risk, and that's infertility. 536 00:28:57.930 --> 00:28:58.069 Right. 537 00:28:59.109 --> 00:29:01.250 The reason that leads to infertility is that in order 538 00:29:01.289 --> 00:29:05.769 to make viable sperm, you need testosterone to be coming 539 00:29:05.849 --> 00:29:08.190 from the testes. And that's not going to happen if 540 00:29:08.210 --> 00:29:10.049 you've turned off the tap that comes from your brain. 541 00:29:10.069 --> 00:29:18.339 And people think testosterone equals masculinity, equals high sperm count. 542 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.339 Actually, exact opposite. The exact opposite. 543 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:26.299

Taking testosterone can lower your Your sperm count to the 544 00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:28.599 point where you are infertile, right? 545 00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:29.079 Yes. 546 00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.569 And this whole thing about sperm and about shutting off 547 00:29:31.609 --> 00:29:35.470 your own testosterone, it's not trivial and it's not necessarily 548 00:29:36.589 --> 00:29:39.750 super short term. I talked about this with Richard Osborne. 549 00:29:40.460 --> 00:29:43.839 He is an endocrinologist and professor at the University of Michigan. 550 00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:45.880 And this actually came up when we were talking about 551 00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.660 this idea of supplementing soldiers with testosterone. 552 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.279 But, you know, if you're taking testosterone, you probably shouldn't 553 00:29:52.339 --> 00:29:54.049 be on the front lines fighting, right? 554 00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:54.829 Why is that? 555 00:29:55.349 --> 00:29:56.589 Well, what if you get captured? 556 00:29:57.490 --> 00:29:57.609 Right. 557 00:29:57.690 --> 00:30:02.099 Because remember, taking testosterone, you're going to then become dependent 558 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.539 on it. You're going to suppress your own production and 559 00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:07.559 then you're going to have to take that for the 560 00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:11.359 rest of your life. So if you get captured and 561 00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:14.140 you don't have access to your testosterone, then you're going 562 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.099 to be even lower than you were before you got treated. 563 00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:20.220 That's permanent? Well, I mean, it depends how long you 564 00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:20.630 use it. 565 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:22.420 Yeah. 566 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:27.130 Wait, it doesn't the moment you stop taking your testosterone supplements, 567 00:30:27.609 --> 00:30:31.529 your body forgets that it's got to go up again? 568 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:33.930 Well, it depends on how long you've been on the 569 00:30:33.970 --> 00:30:36.750 testosterone supplements. It depends on how much you've been taking. 570 00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:41.250 But it can take a while to come back online 571 00:30:41.950 --> 00:30:45.720 and it can be permanently suppressed, even when it does 572 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:48.299 come back online, including your sperm counts. 573 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.740 That's a huge, that's a huge risk. 574 00:30:52.819 --> 00:30:56.180 It's a huge risk. And especially when I think about, like, 575 00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.299 teenagers taking this stuff. Like, oh, my God. 576 00:30:58.799 --> 00:30:59.259 But, yeah. 577 00:30:59.299 --> 00:31:02.519 I mean, also, you can actually go through withdrawal after 578 00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:06.690 stopping testosterone replacement therapy or stopping, you know, steroids. You 579 00:31:06.710 --> 00:31:11.509 can get symptoms like headache, fatigue, restlessness, insomnia,

feeling sad, 580 00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:14.430 low sex drive. All this stuff that you're supposedly trying 581 00:31:14.509 --> 00:31:18.000 to avoid by taking tea can actually end up getting 582 00:31:18.019 --> 00:31:19.940 worse after you stop the testosterone therapy. 583 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:21.339 Mm-hmm. 584 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:21.940 And then. 585 00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:27.630 What about other effects to your heart, to the rest 586 00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:30.269 of your body while you're taking the testosterone? 587 00:31:30.509 --> 00:31:30.829 Yeah. 588 00:31:30.849 --> 00:31:34.349 So people talk about acne that comes up, breast tenderness. 589 00:31:35.609 --> 00:31:38.029 And also if you are someone who is capable of 590 00:31:38.069 --> 00:31:40.910 becoming pregnant, you get pregnant while you're on testosterone, it 591 00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:43.289 could harm the fetus. It's another big thing to think about. 592 00:31:45.619 --> 00:31:47.900 When it comes to stuff like your heart, Your prostate, 593 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.680 if you have one, there has been a lot of 594 00:31:50.190 --> 00:31:54.569 concern that testosterone taking it could be bad, like give 595 00:31:54.589 --> 00:31:57.369 you heart attacks or prostate cancer. But we do have 596 00:31:57.569 --> 00:31:59.759 a study a drug company did a few years ago 597 00:31:59.779 --> 00:32:03.240 that found no difference in heart attacks or prostate cancer 598 00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:06.859 for guys taking moderate doses of testosterone compared with a 599 00:32:06.859 --> 00:32:09.779 placebo over four years, which is somewhat reassuring. 600 00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:10.609 Okay. 601 00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:10.880 Yeah. 602 00:32:11.470 --> 00:32:14.529 But it might be a different story with much higher doses. 603 00:32:14.910 --> 00:32:18.309 So researchers have seen damage to people's hearts and even 604 00:32:18.390 --> 00:32:21.410 brains after they've been juicing for a while. So there 605 00:32:21.430 --> 00:32:24.710 are certainly downsides. Okay. So I think that can be 606 00:32:25.279 --> 00:32:28.720 really downplayed by people who promote this stuff. For sure. 607 00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:31.740 And it doesn't help that a lot of the information 608 00:32:31.779 --> 00:32:35.119 we get about taking testosterone is coming from people who 609 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:38.880 are selling it. A lot of experts have pointed out 610 00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:42.359 that this craze for testosterone really took off around the 611 00:32:42.549 --> 00:32:46.109 year 2000, which was about the time that drug companies 612 00:32:46.430 --> 00:32:49.650 figured out how to put it in a gel. And 613 00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:51.029 so you didn't have to just inject it. So that 614 00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:53.700 this new product that would be a lot more, you know, 615 00:32:55.250 --> 00:32:58.890 Appealing to a lot more people. Right. Yeah, and so 616 00:32:59.170 --> 00:33:01.849 there's been a ton of advertising since then to people 617 00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:03.089 and to doctors. 618 00:33:03.410 --> 00:33:06.910 Yes, and now the advertising is coming through your favorite 619 00:33:06.950 --> 00:33:09.369 influencer and their favorite affiliate code. 620 00:33:10.210 --> 00:33:15.009 Yeah. Right. So there's this push by pharma companies, and 621 00:33:15.029 --> 00:33:18.799 I think it's dovetailing with this other social change we're seeing. 622 00:33:19.579 --> 00:33:22.519 We're going to go back to the guys now. A 623 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:25.269 lot of researchers argue that we've actually seen a shift 624 00:33:25.369 --> 00:33:28.710 in what the ideal male body is supposed to look like. Oh, 625 00:33:28.730 --> 00:33:31.349 for sure. Over the last few decades. So they've done 626 00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:35.170 stuff like they've taken action figures of today and compared 627 00:33:35.210 --> 00:33:38.039 them with action figures of the past. And they found 628 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:41.200 that toy makers are actually making them, like, buffer. Yeah. 629 00:33:42.339 --> 00:33:45.700 I mean, even if you look at Heyman, Heyman is— 630 00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:50.019 probably looks like a twink these days. 631 00:33:50.420 --> 00:33:50.920 Right? 632 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:56.059 There's not even a vein in sight, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 633 00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:00.119 it's crazy. That's crazy. It's crazy. They've also compared centerfolds 634 00:34:00.220 --> 00:34:03.519 in Playgirl magazines over the years and found that the 635 00:34:03.619 --> 00:34:07.140 male models featured there, they're getting more muscular. For sure, 636 00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:07.789 for sure. 637 00:34:07.849 --> 00:34:14.030 These online, you scroll, and these huge guys don't look 638 00:34:14.090 --> 00:34:18.219 that huge anymore. It looks like that's what a normal 639 00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.059 guy is supposed to be. 640 00:34:21.659 --> 00:34:25.900 Whereas in the past, you'd think, wow, that's a bodybuilder. Yeah, 641 00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.539 and this is something that Schallender really cares about and 642 00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:31.380 brought up and talked to me about. Because he thinks 643 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:34.739 what's going on here is we're getting this obsession with 644 00:34:34.760 --> 00:34:40.219 this very narrow and unrealistic idea of what masculinity is. 645 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:43.780 What it means to be a man, a successful man, 646 00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:44.300 a good man. 647 00:34:44.980 --> 00:34:48.900 I've seen some young men on social media talking about 648 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.500 trying to get high T. They're perfectly healthy, but like, 649 00:34:51.539 --> 00:34:53.280 I want to be high T. Maybe they take T 650 00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.170 or maybe they're just trying to boost their T in 651 00:34:55.210 --> 00:34:58.809 other ways, but they really are fixated on their testosterone. 652

00:34:59.230 --> 00:35:01.010 And sometimes I think like, I feel like you need 653 00:35:01.050 --> 00:35:05.489 an older, wise, knowledgeable man to give you some advice. 654 00:35:06.030 --> 00:35:08.320 So I'm thinking you would be a great person. So 655 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:11.429 if you could give some advice to to these guys, 656 00:35:11.469 --> 00:35:12.769 these young guys, what would you say to them? 657 00:35:12.969 --> 00:35:14.989 I would put my hands on them, hug them and 658 00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:19.969 tell them, you have such a perfect, beautiful body. It 659 00:35:20.050 --> 00:35:25.349 is so perfect. It's beautiful in its perfection. You don't 660 00:35:25.489 --> 00:35:29.730 need testosterone to be happy or healthy or have a 661 00:35:29.769 --> 00:35:36.050 sense of well-being, right? And so I think these young 662 00:35:36.070 --> 00:35:40.179 men are struggling and And they just need a hug 663 00:35:40.340 --> 00:35:45.460 and some reassurance that they are beautiful, their bodies are perfect, 664 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:49.349 and testosterone isn't going to make them happier, more successful. 665 00:35:51.309 --> 00:35:55.670 That's science versus. How many citations are in this week's episode, 666 00:35:55.889 --> 00:35:56.530 Rose Rimla? 667 00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:00.280 This week we have 83 citations. And if people want 668 00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:01.960 to see them, where should they go? They can click 669 00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:04.739 on the link to our transcript, and they'll find that 670 00:36:04.780 --> 00:36:05.840 link in our show notes. 671 00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.820 And if you have someone in your life that needs 672 00:36:09.860 --> 00:36:12.650 a hug, that needs to know how beautiful their body. 673 00:36:12.469 --> 00:36:15.929 Is, share them this episode. They don't need testosterone. They 674 00:36:15.949 --> 00:36:18.940 need science. Thanks, Rose. Thanks, Wendy. 675 00:36:19.820 --> 00:36:22.610 Oh, and finally, if you are still thinking about the 676 00:36:22.650 --> 00:36:26.670 fact that children's toys have been getting more and more muscly, 677 00:36:27.210 --> 00:36:29.750 not to mention, of course, these images that we're. 678 00:36:29.630 --> 00:36:32.300 Seeing online, just super, super muscly men. 679 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:36.239 Well, I had this amazing chat this week with the 680 00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:40.320 science educators behind ASAP Science, Mitch Moffitt and Greg Brown, 681 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:43.630 and we were talking about this growing mental health condition 682 00:36:43.650 --> 00:36:48.690 on called bigorexia. And it really made me question my 683 00:36:48.849 --> 00:36:50.909 own habits at the gym. I think it's a really 684 00:36:50.969 --> 00:36:52.050 fascinating conversation. 685 00:36:52.130 --> 00:36:52.789 It's out now. 686 00:36:53.150 --> 00:36:53.989 It's on YouTube. 687 00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:55.719 We're going to put a link in the show notes. 688 00:36:56.099 --> 00:36:58.539 So please go check it out. And Mitch and Greg 689 00:36:58.579 --> 00:37:01.119 have their own podcast. It's called Side Note. That is 690 00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:04.159 where I first heard about this condition, bigorexia. So you 691 00:37:04.179 --> 00:37:07.400 should totally go check it out. This episode was produced 692 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.380 by Rose Rimler with help from Meryl Horne, Akedi Foster-Keys 693 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:11.090 and Michelle Dang. 694 00:37:11.219 --> 00:37:12.510 We're edited by Blythe Terrell. 695 00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:17.070 Wendy Zuckerman, me, is the executive producer. Fact-checking by Marlo Starling. 696 00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:20.869 Video editing and sound by Bobby Lord. Music written by 697 00:37:20.909 --> 00:37:24.210 Bumi Hidaka, Peter Leonard, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. Thanks 698 00:37:24.250 --> 00:37:26.849 to the researchers we spoke to for this episode, including 699 00:37:26.929 --> 00:37:32.019 Dr Kathleen Casto, Dr Carol Hooven, Professor Ruth Wood, Dr 700 00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:36.639 Stephanie Page, Professor Sari Van Anders, Dr Adam Stanaland and 701 00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:41.119 Professor Anthony Hackney. Thanks to Humdinger Studios in Melbourne and 702 00:37:41.179 --> 00:37:44.010 Wolf Island Studios in New York City. Science Versus is 703 00:37:44.050 --> 00:37:46.889 a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on 704 00:37:46.929 --> 00:37:50.309 Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're on YouTube, 705 00:37:50.690 --> 00:37:53.090 we're on TikTok, we're on Instagram as well. Come and 706 00:37:53.170 --> 00:37:53.809 say hello. 707 00:37:53.829 --> 00:37:55.969 I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.