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Sugar: How Bad Is It Really?

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WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.580 --> 00:00:03.520 Hi, I'm Meryl Horne filling in for Wendy Zuckerman, and 2 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:08.500 you're listening to Science Versus. This is the show that 3 00:00:08.539 --> 00:00:17.769 pits facts against fructose. Today, we're looking at sugar. Is 4 00:00:17.850 --> 00:00:21.089 it really that bad? Sugar has always been the villain 5 00:00:21.149 --> 00:00:24.050 in our diets, that thing calling out to us that 6 00:00:24.109 --> 00:00:27.350 we know we should resist. And recently, it feels like 7 00:00:27.510 --> 00:00:30.350 everyone's piling on to tell us, don't do it. 8 00:00:31.300 --> 00:00:34.259 Sugar is one of the deadliest things you can eat. 9 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.939 Our bodies are not able to adapt to the amount 10 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:39.380 of sugar that we're consuming, and it's making us so sick. 11 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.530 Every time you eat sugar, every time, it does permanent 12 00:00:43.590 --> 00:00:44.829 damage to your body. 13 00:00:45.130 --> 00:00:48.670 Sugar is poison, and Americans need to know that. It 14 00:00:48.729 --> 00:00:49.670 is poisoning us. 15 00:00:50.350 --> 00:00:52.850 That last voice you heard was RFK Jr., the Health 16 00:00:52.890 --> 00:00:56.289 and Human Services Secretary in the U.S., and he's recommended 17 00:00:56.369 --> 00:00:59.770 that Americans have zero added sugar in their food. Zero! 18 00:01:01.250 --> 00:01:03.689 And things get even more heated when the topic of 19 00:01:03.710 --> 00:01:06.659 high fructose corn syrup comes up. We hear that this 20 00:01:06.819 --> 00:01:09.480 one is way worse for us than other types of sugar. 21 00:01:09.500 --> 00:01:12.379 High fructose corn syrup. Where do I f * * 22 00:01:12.180 --> 00:01:12.719 * ing start? 23 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:17.489 Literally cheap garbage with zero nutritional value. 24 00:01:18.250 --> 00:01:21.209 High fructose corn syrup actually has a similar effect to 25 00:01:21.269 --> 00:01:22.170 obesity as. 26 00:01:22.090 --> 00:01:25.659 Fuel to a fire. But then at the same time, 27 00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.480 influencers are telling us that there's a loophole here. Just 28 00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:32.370 eat natural sugars. Those are way healthier. 29 00:01:32.829 --> 00:01:36.530 So the best alternative is agave. I love good honey. 30 00:01:36.730 --> 00:01:37.870 I love maple syrup. 31 00:01:37.909 --> 00:01:41.010 The thicker, the darker color, the better. Raw honey has 32 00:01:41.049 --> 00:01:43.189 been shown to have a ton of health benefits in 33 00:01:43.250 --> 00:01:43.890 many studies. 34 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:46.750 Real maple syrup and why you should be chugging it. 35 00:01:49.170 --> 00:01:51.650 We're going to be chugging the research on all of this. 36 00:01:51.810 --> 00:01:55.280 We'll find out whether sugar really does such terrible things 37 00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.239 to our bodies, and if we really can go to 38 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:00.280 town on stuff like honey and maple syrup. 39 00:02:01.019 --> 00:02:02.379 Because when it comes to sugar. 40 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.159 Where do I f * * * ing start? 41 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:06.370 Duh, with the science. 42 00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:11.389 Science vs. Sugar is coming up after the break. 43 00:02:18.699 --> 00:02:20.360 It's been a busy week, right? 44 00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.710 Sounds like it's time for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. 45 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:29.319 Whether it's extra saucy wings from Nando's, a tasty taco 46 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:32.539 bowl from Sprout & Co, or maybe even some California 47 00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:37.060 birria from Boojum. We'll deliver in as little as 25 minutes. 48 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:39.280 Order now. You've earned it. 49 00:02:39.740 --> 00:02:43.939 Deliveroo. That finish line Friday feeling just got even better. 50 00:02:44.460 --> 00:02:47.310 Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary. 51 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:48.430 See app or web for info. 52 00:02:52.379 --> 00:02:54.939 Welcome back. Today on the show, we're looking at sugar. 53 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.360 How bad is it really? This is Meryl Horne, and 54 00:02:58.419 --> 00:03:00.490 with me is senior producer Rose Rimler. 55 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:00.909 Hi, Meryl. 56 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:01.889 Hey, Rose. 57 00:03:02.849 --> 00:03:06.550 So... You're often the one that covers nutrition topics on 58 00:03:06.610 --> 00:03:09.129 our show. Are you like a little mad at me 59 00:03:09.210 --> 00:03:10.210 for getting in your lane? 60 00:03:10.229 --> 00:03:12.610 No, I don't want to do this. 61 00:03:13.050 --> 00:03:17.030 No? Why don't you want to find out about the 62 00:03:17.050 --> 00:03:18.629 science of sugar? Do you have a sweet tooth? 63 00:03:19.379 --> 00:03:20.120 I do. 64 00:03:21.009 --> 00:03:24.020 Let's see. Every morning, pretty much, most mornings, I put 65 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.939 honey on my yogurt. That's what I have for breakfast. 66 00:03:28.129 --> 00:03:30.030 And also throughout the day, I eat a lot of fruit. 67 00:03:30.150 --> 00:03:32.270 Like I eat fruit at breakfast. I usually have some 68 00:03:32.349 --> 00:03:34.389 fruit after lunch. 69 00:03:35.009 --> 00:03:37.210 Well, I have some good news for you right off 70 00:03:37.229 --> 00:03:37.689 the bat. 71 00:03:37.710 --> 00:03:39.009 Can I keep my fruit? 72 00:03:39.069 --> 00:03:42.949 Yes, fruit is totally okay. That's one thing that some 73 00:03:42.990 --> 00:03:45.770 of the sugar haters get wrong is that sugar overall 74 00:03:45.830 --> 00:03:48.750 is not poison because we know fruit does have a 75 00:03:48.770 --> 00:03:50.949 lot of sugar in it. But it's also one of 76 00:03:50.990 --> 00:03:52.169 the healthiest foods you can eat. 77 00:03:52.430 --> 00:03:54.849 Is that because of like the fiber and the nutrients? 78 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.400 Yeah, the fiber especially. 79 00:03:56.560
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--> 00:03:59.080 There's a lot of like good stuff in fruit, which 80 00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.259 makes it healthy to eat overall. So one huge review 81 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:05.319 found that eating more fruit is linked to a lower 82 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.620 risk of getting heart disease, some types of cancer, type 83 00:04:08.620 --> 00:04:12.409 2 diabetes. So that's one reason why sugar is not 84 00:04:12.650 --> 00:04:16.279 just terrible for us overall. And another one is that 85 00:04:16.459 --> 00:04:18.759 we know that whenever we eat stuff with sugar in it, 86 00:04:18.860 --> 00:04:21.759 our bodies do use some of that for energy, right? 87 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:25.660 It's this like quick source of energy. And that's why 88 00:04:25.699 --> 00:04:27.959 like you see marathon runners having that. 89 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:29.740 Like sugar goo stuff. 90 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:33.189 It can be converted really quickly into energy unlike other 91 00:04:33.910 --> 00:04:34.649 things like fat. 92 00:04:34.829 --> 00:04:36.430 Yeah, like if I was cycling the Tour de France, 93 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:39.050 I would be like, they could have all the syrup 94 00:04:39.269 --> 00:04:41.040 I wanted, I assume. Yeah. Yeah. 95 00:04:42.019 --> 00:04:43.899 So yeah, there is some good here. 96 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:48.120 But for the sugar haters, they're not really coming for 97 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.759 your fruit. They're more worried about the sugar that gets 98 00:04:51.920 --> 00:04:55.639 added to stuff like soda, cakes, your ice cream. 99 00:04:55.670 --> 00:04:59.250 Meryl, I think you're underestimating the kookiness of people on 100 00:04:59.269 --> 00:04:59.769 the internet. 101 00:05:00.790 --> 00:05:01.990 They come for the fruit too. 102 00:05:02.009 --> 00:05:05.879 Yeah. Well, they're wrong. Don't let them do that. 103 00:05:06.459 --> 00:05:09.329 But this concept of like added sugars being the thing 104 00:05:09.350 --> 00:05:11.550 you have to worry about, that's familiar to me. And 105 00:05:11.569 --> 00:05:13.670 I think I've seen that for sure online. The whole 106 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:16.329 like no added sugars. Yeah, that's definitely like a thing 107 00:05:16.370 --> 00:05:16.850 that's out there. 108 00:05:17.009 --> 00:05:19.250 That's the big concern, right? So that's what we're really 109 00:05:19.269 --> 00:05:22.850 going to dive into. Let's look at whether it does 110 00:05:22.930 --> 00:05:26.370 make us gain weight first, since there's this idea that 111 00:05:26.509 --> 00:05:29.189 when we eat sugar, it really like packs on the 112 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:31.180 pounds compared to eating other stuff. 113 00:05:31.379 --> 00:05:34.439 Oh, like sugar is like Gram for gram, like more 114 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:36.779 fattening than other nutrients. 115 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:39.350 And so one of the first studies that shed light 116 00:05:39.430 --> 00:05:41.910 on this was done by Professor Jim Mann at the 117 00:05:41.990 --> 00:05:45.269 University of Otago in New Zealand. He did it like 118 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:47.870 50 years ago, actually, back in the 70s. 119 00:05:48.290 --> 00:05:50.740 But funnily enough, I can remember that study very clearly. 120 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:51.420 Oh, really? 121 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:53.439 Because of the way it turned out. 122 00:05:53.819 --> 00:05:55.639 And so, yeah, it really stuck with him. 123 00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:00.040 Like a Tootsie Roll that you left in your pocket 124 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:04.399 too long because something totally unexpected ended up happening. 125 00:06:04.699 --> 00:06:05.660 So here's how it went down. 126 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:06.160 Okay. 127 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.120 The goal of the study was to see what happens 128 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:14.720 when people replace sugar for other types of calories, like starch, 129 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:17.959 the stuff that's in bread. So they could see like, 130 00:06:18.139 --> 00:06:20.529 is sugar particularly unhealthy for us? 131 00:06:21.379 --> 00:06:23.050 So here's what they told the volunteers. 132 00:06:23.529 --> 00:06:24.870 We said, look, we. 133 00:06:24.790 --> 00:06:27.649 Want you to replace, give up X amount of sugar 134 00:06:28.069 --> 00:06:30.750 and replace that with starch to see the effect. 135 00:06:30.769 --> 00:06:33.490 So ditch the dessert and have some pasta instead? 136 00:06:33.509 --> 00:06:34.089 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 137 00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:38.709 So we had a dietician, excellent dietician, who worked with 138 00:06:38.750 --> 00:06:40.379 these people on a regular basis. 139 00:06:40.939 --> 00:06:45.060 And highly motivated people. And they said, yeah, we'll do 140 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:45.720 everything you say. 141 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.060 So my dream of having extra mashed potatoes at the 142 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:49.600 end of the meal. 143 00:06:49.620 --> 00:06:50.639 Yeah, exactly. 144 00:06:50.779 --> 00:06:52.480 It doesn't sound that bad actually, right? 145 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:55.920 Like instead of having sugar, you're supposed to basically have 146 00:06:55.959 --> 00:06:56.500 everything else. 147 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.519 You can have starch, you can have protein. 148 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.790 And they wanted them to do it pretty precisely, like 149 00:07:02.170 --> 00:07:05.189 substitute out one for one. Like the calories that you're 150 00:07:05.209 --> 00:07:10.660 going to have for sugar have the pasta instead. But 151 00:07:10.860 --> 00:07:14.790 what ended up happening is that instead of doing that 152 00:07:14.930 --> 00:07:21.149 one-for-one replacement, they ended up eating less overall. So like, 153 00:07:21.970 --> 00:07:25.009 so yeah, instead of having like the exact amount of 154 00:07:25.050 --> 00:07:27.920 calories that they're going to have in sugar, in pasta, 155 00:07:27.980 --> 00:07:30.100 they ended up having less
pasta. 156 00:07:30.379 --> 00:07:33.019 They just couldn't get that much starch down their gullets. 157 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:37.759 Yeah, yeah. And so they ended up losing weight. And 158 00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:40.639 so Jim couldn't do the thing he was trying to do, 159 00:07:40.680 --> 00:07:43.860 which was see, like, which is worse, calorie for calorie. 160 00:07:44.259 --> 00:07:45.860 Here's what they'd need to do instead. 161 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:48.850 You've actually got to do it in a controlled environment 162 00:07:48.990 --> 00:07:51.689 where you actually give people all their meals and you 163 00:07:51.730 --> 00:07:54.649 virtually lock them up to make sure that they are 164 00:07:54.769 --> 00:07:57.629 actually not going to change their calorie intake. 165 00:07:57.970 --> 00:07:58.209 Right. 166 00:07:58.290 --> 00:08:01.189 One of these studies, nutrition studies, where you get people 167 00:08:01.209 --> 00:08:02.540 to live in the lab and you give them all 168 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:02.980 their meals. 169 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:06.540 Yeah, basically. My favorite. So yeah, he had to wait 170 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.959 for these more careful studies to come along. 171 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:10.290 And they have. 172 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.610 Wait, so other researchers have done that since Jim? 173 00:08:14.189 --> 00:08:14.930 Yes, yes. 174 00:08:15.189 --> 00:08:15.410 Okay. 175 00:08:15.430 --> 00:08:18.050 Other researchers will do what he was trying to do 176 00:08:18.149 --> 00:08:21.410 kind of properly. So like make sure people aren't actually 177 00:08:21.470 --> 00:08:24.389 changing the total amount of calories that they're eating to 178 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.680 find out if sugar itself causes more weight gain than 179 00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:28.259 other stuff. 180 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:29.300 Okay. 181 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.220 So several years ago, Jim and his team collected a 182 00:08:32.259 --> 00:08:34.840 bunch of these studies for a meta-analysis. They ended up 183 00:08:34.860 --> 00:08:38.429 looking at 12 of them. So now we can answer 184 00:08:38.470 --> 00:08:39.230 the question, right? 185 00:08:39.850 --> 00:08:40.509 So are you ready? 186 00:08:40.529 --> 00:08:41.289 Yeah. 187 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:44.850 So what they found is that sugar does not have 188 00:08:45.129 --> 00:08:47.909 some sort of magical power to make you gain weight. 189 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:51.700 So if you have like people eat the same amount 190 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:53.639 of calories, some of them are getting sugar, some of 191 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.779 them are getting other stuff, they generally do not gain 192 00:08:56.840 --> 00:09:01.789 more weight with the sugar. I mean, to me, I 193 00:09:01.929 --> 00:09:05.850 was kind of surprised because it does feel like sugar 194 00:09:06.289 --> 00:09:08.980 is bad for our weight and it It is true 195 00:09:09.019 --> 00:09:13.259 that people who have more sugar generally will gain more weight. 196 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:15.620 And that's because in the real world, when people have 197 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:19.029 a lot of sugar, they aren't like compensating by eating 198 00:09:19.149 --> 00:09:20.309 less of other stuff. 199 00:09:21.809 --> 00:09:23.509 Maybe because sugar doesn't make. 200 00:09:23.429 --> 00:09:26.909 Us feel as full as other foods do. I mean, 201 00:09:26.929 --> 00:09:29.529 you could see this in Jim's study and... It just 202 00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:33.580 makes intuitive sense. Like, if you imagine having a bottle 203 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:36.600 of Coke with your lunch, you're not going to be like, oh, like, 204 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:38.840 I guess I won't be that hungry for a big 205 00:09:38.899 --> 00:09:41.139 lunch anymore because I'm having all this soda. Like, no, 206 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:42.580 you're going to have just as big of a lunch 207 00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:44.639 as you would have otherwise if you're having water with 208 00:09:44.679 --> 00:09:48.200 your lunch. And so, like, even though it doesn't seem 209 00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:51.519 like sugar is magically good at making us gain weight, 210 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.879 people do tend to just eat more overall when they 211 00:09:54.919 --> 00:09:56.259 have a lot of sugar in their diet. 212 00:09:56.889 --> 00:09:59.169 It's magically good at being delicious and making you want 213 00:09:59.190 --> 00:09:59.950 to eat more. 214 00:10:00.259 --> 00:10:03.200 And more of it. Yeah, that too. And so we 215 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:06.240 end up gaining weight and that could increase your risk 216 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:11.470 for some types of cancer, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease. 217 00:10:12.350 --> 00:10:15.470 And there's another thing that sugar can do that's not 218 00:10:15.509 --> 00:10:19.149 so good for us. It's bad for our cardiovascular system. 219 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:22.220 And that actually is true even if you're not eating 220 00:10:22.259 --> 00:10:28.000 more calories overall. Sugar seems to be bad for our blood, basically. 221 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:31.210 It's not a huge effect, but it's still like a 222 00:10:31.230 --> 00:10:35.919 tick against sugar. And why is it bad for our 223 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.539 cardiovascular system? It's because of the way that sugar can 224 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:41.539 get converted into fat. 225 00:10:42.019 --> 00:10:43.840 That ends up being bad for us. 226 00:10:44.700 --> 00:10:47.580 We'll actually come back to that a little later. But first, 227 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:50.960 to complete our roundup of why sugar is bad. So 228 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:53.419 number one, if we eat more sugar, we tend to 229 00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:57.139 gain weight. Number two, it's bad for our cardiovascular system. 230 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:00.860 And number three, can you guess, Rose, the other main 231 00:11:00.899 -->
00:11:02.399 reason why sugar is bad for us? 232 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:04.120 It's bad for your teeth. 233 00:11:04.419 --> 00:11:04.759 Yes. 234 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:08.679 Sugar gives us cavities. 235 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:11.769 We've known this since the 1950s when there was a 236 00:11:11.789 --> 00:11:13.909 really terrible experiment Jim told me about. 237 00:11:13.929 --> 00:11:15.169 It was done in Sweden. 238 00:11:15.649 --> 00:11:19.730 Most unethical by modern standards, where they gave people who 239 00:11:19.769 --> 00:11:22.850 lived in mental institutions, they gave them, I think, those 240 00:11:22.870 --> 00:11:25.200 sort of toffee kind of things to chew and other 241 00:11:25.250 --> 00:11:29.220 sweet things, showed that those people in the mental institution 242 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.960 who were given these disgusting sugary sweet things were They 243 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:34.299 got terrible dental caddies. 244 00:11:35.299 --> 00:11:40.750 Yes, you can't just give people diseases. But yes, okay, 245 00:11:40.779 --> 00:11:43.190 so sugar really does lead to cavities. It's not an 246 00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:44.049 old myth. 247 00:11:44.549 --> 00:11:45.149 No, yeah. 248 00:11:45.450 --> 00:11:48.110 Now we know it's because sugar feeds bacteria that are 249 00:11:48.129 --> 00:11:50.110 in our mouths and that creates cavities or at least 250 00:11:50.129 --> 00:11:54.000 little holes in our teeth. Okay, so here's where we are. 251 00:11:54.470 --> 00:11:58.700 Sugar is not looking great. You know, so far, lots 252 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.539 of the studies we've been talking about are just using 253 00:12:01.639 --> 00:12:05.070 basic table sugar. But there are these claims that some 254 00:12:05.110 --> 00:12:07.730 sugars are better for you than that or worse for 255 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.230 you than that. And so this opens up a whole 256 00:12:11.330 --> 00:12:12.509 can of gummy worms. 257 00:12:13.049 --> 00:12:14.289 That's what we'll look into next. 258 00:12:14.669 --> 00:12:17.389 Oh, did you bring gummy worms to this discussion? 259 00:12:18.929 --> 00:12:19.769 Check your mail. 260 00:12:22.269 --> 00:12:26.429 Look under your seat. So next up, we're going to 261 00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:28.909 tell you whether high fructose corn syrup really is the 262 00:12:28.929 --> 00:12:32.049 big bad wolf, whether honey or maple syrup is the 263 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:32.700 way to go. 264 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:34.600 And the answers might surprise you. 265 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:36.039 That's after the break. 266 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.360 It's been a busy week, right? Sounds like it's time 267 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:55.129 for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. Whether it's extra saucy 268 00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:59.389 wings from Nando's, a tasty taco bowl from Sprout & Co, 269 00:12:59.889 --> 00:13:03.929 or maybe even some California birria from Boojum. We'll deliver 270 00:13:04.029 --> 00:13:05.789 in as little as 25 minutes. 271 00:13:06.350 --> 00:13:08.009 Order now. You've earned it. 272 00:13:08.490 --> 00:13:12.669 Deliveroo. That finish line Friday feeling just got even better. 273 00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:16.049 Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary. 274 00:13:16.090 --> 00:13:17.149 See app or web for info. 275 00:13:17.899 --> 00:13:20.419 Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to 276 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:23.779 tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday. 277 00:13:23.990 --> 00:13:26.509 They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird 278 00:13:26.549 --> 00:13:30.590 and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our 279 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:33.690 brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a 280 00:13:33.789 --> 00:13:35.220 spider on its tail. tail. 281 00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:36.659 It's a lot of news that you. 282 00:13:36.580 --> 00:13:38.940 Can use and some that you can't, but you're going 283 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:43.100 to love anyway. It's hosted by Ira Flato and Flora Lichtman, 284 00:13:43.259 --> 00:13:45.960 who is an old friend of the show and loves 285 00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:48.659 a pun as much as we do. Science Friday is 286 00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:51.279 on every day, wherever you get your podcasts. 287 00:13:54.970 --> 00:13:58.450 Welcome back. Today is Sugar Day at Science Versus. With 288 00:13:58.490 --> 00:13:59.690 me is Rose Rimler. 289 00:13:59.710 --> 00:14:00.149 Hi, Meryl. 290 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:03.789 Next up, we're going to talk about the favorite punching 291 00:14:03.830 --> 00:14:07.399 bag in the sugar world, high fructose corn syrup, and 292 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:09.799 the idea that it is way worse for us than 293 00:14:09.860 --> 00:14:12.879 other sugar. So this was in the news recently when 294 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:17.059 President Trump praised Coca-Cola for using cane sugar in some 295 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.740 of their sodas in the U.S. And the company confirmed 296 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:23.299 that they're going to do that soon. So, of course, 297 00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:26.470 all the talking heads weighed in on high fructose corn syrup. 298 00:14:26.769 --> 00:14:29.309 A lot of folks, I personally agree with this, find 299 00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:30.929 high fructose corn syrup kind of creepy. 300 00:14:31.149 --> 00:14:34.590 I like cane sugar better because it's more natural. High 301 00:14:34.610 --> 00:14:37.190 fructose corn syrup, it comes from corn, but I don't 302 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:39.129 think it remembers what a corn looks like. 303 00:14:39.559 --> 00:14:41.820 This is kind of an old one, too, right? I mean, 304 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.879 this was big in the 90s. I remember this being 305 00:14:44.919 --> 00:14:46.259 an issue when I was a little kid. 306 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:50.820 Yeah. That high fructose corn syrup is like particularly bad 307 00:14:50.860 -->
00:14:51.220 for us. 308 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:51.679 Yeah. 309 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:53.039 Maybe it's a California thing. 310 00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:53.610 I don't know. 311 00:14:53.620 --> 00:14:56.190 Did it just reach the East Coast? Because in California, 312 00:14:56.210 --> 00:15:00.009 we've been talking about this since like 1975. 313 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.080 So do you get bad vibes from high fructose corn syrup? 314 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:06.700 Everybody in California knows that the vibes are really bad. 315 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:07.990 Of high fructose corn syrup. 316 00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:10.730 But to find out if it's more than just bad vibes, 317 00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:14.370 I called up Dr. Kimber Stanhope. She's a research nutritional 318 00:15:14.389 --> 00:15:18.889 biologist at the University of California, Davis, and her specialty 319 00:15:19.110 --> 00:15:22.379 is sugar. So she's been very popular this past news cycle. 320 00:15:23.019 --> 00:15:26.740 Have you been getting flooded by requests from reporters to 321 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:27.960 talk about this right now? 322 00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:29.100 Definitely a lot. 323 00:15:29.139 --> 00:15:29.850 You're late. 324 00:15:33.230 --> 00:15:36.309 So there actually is a legit reason why high fructose 325 00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:38.309 corn syrup might be bad for us. 326 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:40.159 It's because of the fructose. 327 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:44.580 That's one of the basic sugar building blocks along with glucose. 328 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:48.330 And at one point, like in the 80s, scientists were 329 00:15:48.350 --> 00:15:51.509 thinking that fructose might actually be better for us than 330 00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:53.049 other stuff like glucose. 331 00:15:53.289 --> 00:15:53.409 Oh. 332 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:56.669 Because fructose doesn't raise our blood sugar like glucose does. 333 00:15:56.690 --> 00:15:57.710 Oh, okay. 334 00:15:57.750 --> 00:16:00.779 So maybe good, especially if you have diabetes. 335 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:01.279 Mm-hmm. 336 00:16:01.850 --> 00:16:05.370 But those glory days of fructose didn't last long because 337 00:16:05.509 --> 00:16:09.860 pretty quickly, studies started coming out finding that fructose has 338 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.320 its own set of problems. So one big one is 339 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:18.120 that it often gets turned into something called triglycerides. and 340 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.230 triglycerides are what fat is made of. So Kimber told me, 341 00:16:22.429 --> 00:16:25.909 imagine you got someone who was willing to donate some 342 00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:28.029 of their body to science, and then. 343 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.690 You took a big chunk of their fat, most of 344 00:16:30.730 --> 00:16:33.279 that fat is triglyceride. 345 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:36.360 Oh, so it's like the currency of fat in the body. 346 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:37.840 Right, exactly. 347 00:16:38.200 -->
00:16:40.519 Does it look like anything, like under a microscope? 348 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:41.750 Pure oil. 349 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:42.259 So most of. 350 00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:52.389 Okay, your oils at home that you cook with, that 351 00:16:52.590 --> 00:16:55.409 is nearly pure triglyceride. 352 00:16:56.070 --> 00:16:56.210 Oh. 353 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:00.649 So like in the blood, it forms these droplets. 354 00:17:01.289 --> 00:17:05.640 And over time, though, these droplets can start like stacking 355 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:07.140 up in our blood vessels. 356 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:10.839 They almost sort of round out the edges and look 357 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:12.339 like a layer, you know, bricks. 358 00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:14.630 But free-form bricks. 359 00:17:15.049 --> 00:17:15.849 Like squishy bricks? 360 00:17:16.250 --> 00:17:16.950 Yeah, yeah. 361 00:17:17.609 --> 00:17:21.420 And that layer of squishy bricks narrows the blood vessels, 362 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:23.180 and that can raise your blood pressure and up the 363 00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:27.240 chance of you getting a stroke. Okay, so the reason 364 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:29.599 fructose is a bad guy is that it gets turned 365 00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:35.910 into triglycerides. Triglycerides cause these fat bricks that can cause 366 00:17:35.930 --> 00:17:37.049 all these heart disease issues. 367 00:17:37.529 --> 00:17:40.730 That makes sense, but... But wouldn't that happen with any 368 00:17:40.849 --> 00:17:42.549 type of sugar that you eat? Like, why are we 369 00:17:42.569 --> 00:17:45.119 blaming fructose here? Like, would that also happen with glucose 370 00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:45.779 or something like that? 371 00:17:46.180 --> 00:17:48.799 It can. So it can happen with glucose under, like, 372 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:55.220 certain conditions. But fructose basically gets converted into triglycerides more easily. 373 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.490 It's sort of fructose's evil superpower. And so now some 374 00:17:59.509 --> 00:18:02.730 scientists think that fructose is worse for us than glucose. 375 00:18:02.990 --> 00:18:06.269 But earlier you said that fruit is okay and... Like, 376 00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:08.660 doesn't fruit have a lot of fructose in it? 377 00:18:08.849 --> 00:18:12.799 It does, but the fructose in fruit is okay because 378 00:18:12.859 --> 00:18:16.220 it's bound up inside the fruit. It's like alongside all 379 00:18:16.259 --> 00:18:20.359 that fiber we talked about. But with something like high 380 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.940 fructose corn syrup, the fructose there is just kind of 381 00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:28.559 free floating. And so there's this concern that that's particularly 382 00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:29.660 bad for our bodies. 383 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:31.480 But is it? 384 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:32.180 So. 385 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:35.289 Kimber wanted to know, like, what actually happens when you 386 00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:38.589 give people this stuff and just compare it to table sugar? 387 00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:40.950 So let me tell you about one of the clinical 388 00:18:40.970 --> 00:18:45.430 trials she's done. She got 52 adults, and they actually 389 00:18:45.470 --> 00:18:47.529 had them move into the wing of a hospital for 390 00:18:47.609 --> 00:18:50.390 three days in the beginning of the experiment, where they 391 00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:52.150 could run a battery of tests on them. 392 00:18:52.450 --> 00:18:54.849 We collect blood all day long. 393 00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:57.289 We start at 8 o'clock in the morning, and we 394 00:18:57.329 --> 00:18:59.990 go all the way to 8 o'clock the next day, 395 00:19:00.230 --> 00:19:01.410 at least every hour. 396 00:19:01.430 --> 00:19:01.730 Wow. 397 00:19:02.450 --> 00:19:05.930 And this was to check for stuff like triglycerides and cholesterol. 398 00:19:05.970 --> 00:19:08.970 They also got liver MRIs done since some of those 399 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:12.279 triglycerides can build up in the liver too, which is 400 00:19:12.500 --> 00:19:16.339 not good. And they basically wanted to get a really 401 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:20.039 good baseline of where people are at before they started 402 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.759 giving them any sugar. Like everyone had to eat the 403 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:26.460 same food while they were there, like salad. 404 00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:33.789 The complaints I got About that salad went on and on. 405 00:19:33.930 --> 00:19:38.539 I got so tired of people saying, oh, I can't 406 00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:39.940 eat all this salad. 407 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:42.880 Like this much. 408 00:19:42.980 --> 00:19:46.769 I mean, it was not an enormous salad. 409 00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:49.970 Was it like iceberg lettuce and really bad bland tomatoes? 410 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:52.910 Though? She defended it. She was like, no, this was 411 00:19:52.950 --> 00:19:54.500 like a tossed salad. 412 00:19:54.539 --> 00:19:57.240 So it had tomatoes, cucumbers. Oh. 413 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:00.279 But people did seem to like the next part of 414 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.380 the experiment more. They get to go home now and 415 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.819 they get to drink lots and lots of Kool-Aid. What 416 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:09.579 was the Kool-Aid flavor? Was it the fruit punch one? 417 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:11.700 They got to choose. 418 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:18.539 I actually many times stunned the cashiers coming through with 419 00:20:18.940 --> 00:20:21.619 easily a thousand packets of Kool-Aid. 420 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:22.299 Oh my gosh. 421 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.079 Oh my gosh, you really like. 422 00:20:24.940 --> 00:20:26.339 Kool-Aid, don't you? 423 00:20:27.380 --> 00:20:30.680 But I usually waited for it to be on sale, but. 424 00:20:32.690 --> 00:20:35.289 And the Kool-Aid they got was sweetened with either table 425 00:20:35.349 --> 00:20:37.049 sugar or
high fructose corn syrup. 426 00:20:37.380 --> 00:20:39.880 So that was the big difference between the two groups 427 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:41.599 once they went home, was they either drank a lot 428 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:47.079 of table sugar, sugary Kool-Aid or high fructose corn syrup Kool-Aid. 429 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:48.359 Yes, exactly. 430 00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:51.539 Okay. Yeah, they had to have it three times a day, 431 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:53.599 and they didn't know which one they were getting. Okay. 432 00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:57.019 So now after 12 days of that, they go back 433 00:20:57.059 --> 00:20:59.630 to the hospital again so they can redo all those tests. 434 00:21:00.250 --> 00:21:02.690 And now we can finally see how bad the high 435 00:21:02.730 --> 00:21:06.630 fructose corn syrup is. So I asked Kimber, was high 436 00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:11.160 fructose corn syrup any worse for people than normal table sugar? No. No. 437 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.940 There was never a difference, a significant difference between the two. 438 00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:16.759 Whoa. 439 00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:19.930 So what would they have seen if there was a difference? 440 00:21:20.109 --> 00:21:22.569 So they're looking for at the triglycerides and like fat 441 00:21:22.609 --> 00:21:25.369 in the liver. And, you know, you'd expect that if 442 00:21:25.410 --> 00:21:28.450 high fructose corn syrup was worse, you would see more triglycerides, 443 00:21:28.490 --> 00:21:32.000 more liver fat in that group. But instead, you know, 444 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:34.480 they saw a rise in both groups, but there wasn't 445 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:36.059 a difference between the two. 446 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:39.160 So, yeah, I asked if Kimber was surprised. 447 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:45.750 No, I wasn't surprised at all. The results were actually 448 00:21:45.910 --> 00:21:48.890 pretty much exactly what I would have expected. 449 00:21:49.259 --> 00:21:52.619 She didn't drink the Kool-Aid about high fructose corn syrup? No. 450 00:21:54.500 --> 00:21:54.819 Are you? 451 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:55.779 I'm surprised. 452 00:21:56.079 --> 00:21:58.420 I don't know. I guess, I mean, I guess I'm, 453 00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:00.009 I mean, I am and I'm not like, I know 454 00:22:00.069 --> 00:22:01.849 that so much of what we are told about nutrition 455 00:22:01.910 --> 00:22:05.809 is BS. So like, I'm not surprised this thing is BS, 456 00:22:05.950 --> 00:22:09.450 but I am like, I do have this in, like 457 00:22:09.470 --> 00:22:12.859 this internal feeling that like, high fructose corn syrup has 458 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:15.890 got to be pretty bad, right? And that's interesting that 459 00:22:16.130 --> 00:22:19.289 at least on these measures, it was the same as 460 00:22:19.390 --> 00:22:20.430 just plain old sugar. 461 00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:24.650 Yeah, yeah. I was surprised too. I mean, but the reason, 462 00:22:25.170 --> 00:22:28.559 once
you find out like what high fructose corn syrup is, 463 00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:31.849 it makes a lot of sense. So I've been kind 464 00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:36.529 of holding back on you for dramatic effects. But basically, 465 00:22:37.029 --> 00:22:40.910 high fructose corn syrup does not actually have that much 466 00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:43.309 more fructose in it than normal table sugar. 467 00:22:43.789 --> 00:22:44.170 Really? 468 00:22:44.190 --> 00:22:46.009 Yeah, despite the name. 469 00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:47.349 It's just the name. 470 00:22:47.369 --> 00:22:47.710 Yeah. 471 00:22:47.750 --> 00:22:51.269 So basically, both are made out of two things, fructose 472 00:22:51.349 --> 00:22:57.220 and glucose. High fructose corn syrup is often 55% fructose. 473 00:22:57.960 --> 00:22:59.880 Do you want to guess how much fructose is in 474 00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:00.380 table sugar? 475 00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:04.210 Well, you told me it's not that much of a difference. 476 00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:04.509 So 50%? 477 00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:04.869 Yep. 478 00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:05.970 Okay. 479 00:23:06.509 --> 00:23:07.670 It's half and half. 480 00:23:08.529 --> 00:23:08.710 Okay. 481 00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:10.269 So yeah, they're pretty much on par. 482 00:23:10.369 --> 00:23:12.710 So it's slightly high fructose corn syrup. 483 00:23:13.049 --> 00:23:13.569 Yeah. 484 00:23:13.769 --> 00:23:16.170 In this case, it was slightly higher. 485 00:23:16.670 --> 00:23:19.430 And so that's why Kimber also wasn't surprised. 486 00:23:19.529 --> 00:23:23.029 That difference is not enough to show up at least 487 00:23:23.109 --> 00:23:24.349 in a two-week study. 488 00:23:24.410 --> 00:23:27.890 So it's actually, it's not like it doesn't deserve its stigma, 489 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:28.839 high fructose corn syrup. 490 00:23:28.900 --> 00:23:29.180 No. 491 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:31.799 Hmm. And others today have backed this up. 492 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:32.920 It's funny. 493 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.900 You'd think that if this is the case, the people 494 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:39.019 behind high fructose corn syrup would have rebranded ages ago. 495 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:39.119 Yeah. 496 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:42.200 Because if they could just be. 497 00:23:42.140 --> 00:23:44.640 Like, if we just call it something else, then they 498 00:23:44.660 --> 00:23:47.240 wouldn't have had this whole mess, maybe. 499 00:23:47.349 --> 00:23:48.700 They actually tried to, yeah. 500 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:50.970 There was like a campaign where they tried to change 501 00:23:51.029 --> 00:23:54.509 it to just corn sugar. But the problem is when 502 00:23:54.529 --> 00:23:57.700 they first invented it, You know, they called it high 503 00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:01.700 fructose corn syrup because the thing that came around first 504 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.089 was just corn syrup. And that didn't have any fructose 505 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:07.869 in it at all. So that was low fructose. That 506 00:24:07.890 --> 00:24:12.349 was basically no fructose. And then they started adding fructose 507 00:24:12.430 --> 00:24:15.970 to it to make it sweeter. And that's why they 508 00:24:15.990 --> 00:24:18.109 called it high fructose corn syrup. It's higher than nothing. 509 00:24:18.589 --> 00:24:21.369 So it's sort of a misnomer. And sometimes it actually 510 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:25.410 has less fructose in it than table sugar. But I bet, yeah, 511 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:28.819 I think they're probably regretting their decision pretty strongly now 512 00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:31.839 to call it that because now it's kind of stuck. 513 00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:37.279 So maybe this is ignorant, but table sugar, that's from... Beets? 514 00:24:37.779 --> 00:24:38.960 Cane? Sugar cane? 515 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:39.960 Both. 516 00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:43.119 Yeah. Those are the two main sources are either beets 517 00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:45.940 or sugar cane. And that in both cases, it's half 518 00:24:45.980 --> 00:24:51.220 and half. So 50% fructose, 50% glucose, which by the way, 519 00:24:51.309 --> 00:24:53.950 means that there's like no real reason to think that 520 00:24:54.069 --> 00:24:57.109 cane sugar is like especially healthy for us when it's 521 00:24:57.329 --> 00:24:59.769 basically the same thing as high fructose corn syrup when 522 00:24:59.789 --> 00:25:02.880 you look at what makes it up. But so does 523 00:25:02.900 --> 00:25:06.549 this change your mind after all your, you know, brainwashing 524 00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:09.710 growing up in California about how terrible high fructose corn 525 00:25:09.730 --> 00:25:11.410 syrup was? Are you going to go put some of 526 00:25:11.450 --> 00:25:15.950 that now on your yogurt? 527 00:25:16.190 --> 00:25:18.930 You know, it's very hard to undo brainwashing, but I 528 00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:22.549 do genuinely. Now my question is like, maybe high fructose 529 00:25:22.569 --> 00:25:26.779 corn syrup isn't worse than other types of sources of sugar, but. 530 00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:30.539 Does that mean they're all bad? 531 00:25:30.579 --> 00:25:31.500 Because like, I. 532 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:34.210 Think some, you know, hippies like me, we get a 533 00:25:34.230 --> 00:25:37.390 little bit of a... a squeeze of pleasure when we 534 00:25:37.670 --> 00:25:39.960 use agave or honey or something instead of like high 535 00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:43.200 fructose corn syrup. So does that mean like the natural 536 00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:46.759 sugars are, they're just as bad as high fructose corn syrup? 537 00:25:47.059 --> 00:25:49.480 Well, that's what we're going to look at next. So 538 00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:52.650 let's start with agave syrup. You know, you'll see this 539 00:25:52.730 --> 00:25:55.750 in fancy coffee shops. You can get it in your smoothie. 540 00:25:56.410 --> 00:25:59.329 But I couldn't find that much research backing up this 541
00:25:59.430 --> 00:26:04.480 idea that agave deserves this like wellness glow up. So 542 00:26:04.660 --> 00:26:07.400 there's barely any research on it in humans at all. 543 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:11.380 And when you look at what's in it, it's mostly fructose. 544 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:17.700 Around 85% of agave syrup is fructose. Oh. Huh. 545 00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:18.180 Okay. 546 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:21.779 Agave is more fructose than high fructose corn syrup. 547 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:22.220 Yes. 548 00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:25.980 Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And, you know, some scientists argue that 549 00:26:26.059 --> 00:26:29.299 fructose might not be that much worse than glucose. But 550 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.549 a lot of studies say that it is. So like 551 00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:34.289 I don't see any good reasons to like go for 552 00:26:34.329 --> 00:26:35.529 agave specifically. 553 00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:36.710 Oh, okay. 554 00:26:36.730 --> 00:26:37.279 All right. 555 00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:39.519 Unless it's been turned into a tequila. Yeah. 556 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.480 All right. 557 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.519 So let's look at maple syrup next. There's some buzz 558 00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.430 online about how that one's healthier. And there was a 559 00:26:52.450 --> 00:26:55.670 particular trial that comes up a lot. And at first glance, 560 00:26:55.990 --> 00:26:59.450 it looks like maple syrup is healthier. Like, you know, 561 00:26:59.470 --> 00:27:02.700 when you kind of skim the paper, it looked like 562 00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:06.640 they saw a difference between people who were eating maple 563 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:10.069 syrup and people who are having table sugar. Like, the 564 00:27:10.109 --> 00:27:13.369 maple syrup group had less fat around their bellies. So 565 00:27:13.690 --> 00:27:15.210 I asked Kimber about that study. 566 00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:18.089 I can't tell you how unimpressed I was. 567 00:27:18.049 --> 00:27:19.430 By that study. 568 00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:20.069 Huh. 569 00:27:20.630 --> 00:27:24.730 So the reason she's unimpressed is that these researchers did 570 00:27:24.869 --> 00:27:28.509 dozens and dozens of tests looking for differences in like 571 00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:31.910 health markers between the group which got the maple syrup 572 00:27:32.009 --> 00:27:35.329 and the group that got the normal table sugar. And 573 00:27:35.430 --> 00:27:39.039 out of those dozens of tests, only three showed a difference. 574 00:27:39.829 --> 00:27:45.049 And they turn that into, wow, maple syrup is healthier. 575 00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:50.859 But any statistician will tell you, no, wait, that's within 576 00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.660 the odds of random chance. 577 00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:55.680 Right. 578 00:27:55.759 --> 00:27:57.839 You do that many of any study, and some of 579 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:00.380 them will happen to turn up positive, especially when their 580 00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.960 p-values are like. 581 00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:04.529 0.047 for one of them. 582 00:28:05.230 --> 00:28:09.500 Oh my God, Meryl, I'm so impressed you said that. 583 00:28:09.539 --> 00:28:12.059 You know exactly what I'm talking about. 584 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:13.799 Yes, exactly. 585 00:28:13.940 --> 00:28:17.789 Yeah. Okay. That's classic. If you run a lot of tests, 586 00:28:17.869 --> 00:28:21.200 some of them could come up showing a positive effect, 587 00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:22.660 even if it's just by chance. 588 00:28:22.779 --> 00:28:23.240 Yeah. 589 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.480 And like they could have done some work to like 590 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.529 correct for the fact that they were running so many tests, 591 00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:30.730 but you don't see them do that in the paper. 592 00:28:31.250 --> 00:28:34.230 And on top of that, the study was also funded 593 00:28:34.390 --> 00:28:36.109 by a maple syrup group in Canada. 594 00:28:36.130 --> 00:28:37.509 Oh, I was going to say, yeah. 595 00:28:37.529 --> 00:28:40.210 I was going to say, it's like the Canadian mafia 596 00:28:40.250 --> 00:28:42.730 was like behind this, the Canadian maple syrup mafia. 597 00:28:42.769 --> 00:28:42.910 Yeah. 598 00:28:43.450 --> 00:28:46.140 I mean, it's basically a group of maple syrup producers. 599 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.359 I did reach out to the authors of the study 600 00:28:49.460 --> 00:28:53.720 about these criticisms and didn't hear back. But yeah, this 601 00:28:53.859 --> 00:28:56.700 was the most impressive study I could find on maple syrup. 602 00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:59.319 So I think it's delicious, but I don't think we 603 00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:00.799 have good evidence that it's healthier. 604 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.119 And then you mentioned honey? 605 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:05.069 That's my go-to sugar. 606 00:29:05.180 --> 00:29:05.970 Okay, well. 607 00:29:05.990 --> 00:29:09.309 Uh-oh. Don't ruin my breakfast. 608 00:29:09.410 --> 00:29:12.890 It does seem more promising to me, actually. So, like, 609 00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:16.160 there is a big review that came out recently that 610 00:29:16.180 --> 00:29:18.819 looked at all the trials that have been done on honey. 611 00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:21.740 And overall, it looked like there was a benefit with 612 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.119 the honey. 613 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.109 Like, multiple studies saying that people's cholesterol looked better than... 614 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.809 In the sugar, like the table sugar group, for example. Yeah. 615 00:29:30.829 --> 00:29:34.230 And some of the studies found a benefit specifically when 616 00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:39.890 they were giving people so-called raw honey or like unprocessed honey. Oh. 617 00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:41.299 Okay. 618 00:29:41.579 --> 00:29:44.359 But when I talked to Kimber about this, she was 619 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:46.980 like more positive than she
was with the maple syrup. 620 00:29:47.180 --> 00:29:49.690 But she did see some flaws in those studies too. 621 00:29:49.849 --> 00:29:52.730 Like most of them didn't blind the people in them. 622 00:29:52.849 --> 00:29:56.289 So they knew that they're getting honey and She thought, 623 00:29:56.309 --> 00:29:58.259 you know, maybe if people knew that they were getting 624 00:29:58.299 --> 00:30:01.619 this like supposedly healthy, you know, raw honey, then they'll 625 00:30:01.660 --> 00:30:05.440 do other healthy stuff too. And the review pointed this 626 00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:07.920 out too, saying that at least a dozen of the 627 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.230 studies in their review had this issue. So overall, I 628 00:30:12.289 --> 00:30:16.529 asked Kimber... Bottom line, if you're trying to decide what 629 00:30:16.549 --> 00:30:19.319 to put on your yogurt, should you pick honey over 630 00:30:19.450 --> 00:30:21.500 maple syrup or like brown sugar? 631 00:30:21.740 --> 00:30:29.539 Possibly, yeah, but I would forego it completely and learn 632 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:31.059 to put fruit on. 633 00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.380 But is it, do you think because there's a little 634 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.809 bit of evidence that maybe it's better for like certain things, 635 00:30:36.970 --> 00:30:37.990 it's worthwhile? 636 00:30:38.589 --> 00:30:39.630 Substituting it in? 637 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:45.230 It is questionable enough that if I was forced to 638 00:30:45.289 --> 00:30:52.950 make the decision between natural, unprocessed honey versus sucrose or 639 00:30:53.230 --> 00:30:57.759 any other form of sugar, I would pick the honey. 640 00:30:57.940 --> 00:31:00.240 If someone had a gun to your head and was like, Kimber, 641 00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.259 you must add one of these things to your yogurt, 642 00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:03.400 you would choose the honey. 643 00:31:03.420 --> 00:31:03.680 Exactly. 644 00:31:04.059 --> 00:31:09.019 That's how you'll have to phrase it. So, Rose, how 645 00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:10.579 does that make you feel about your honey? 646 00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:17.440 Well, here's what I would say. By adding some honey 647 00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:22.710 to this slop that I make, the honey makes me 648 00:31:23.289 --> 00:31:26.130 more likely to eat these other things that definitely have 649 00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:28.079 a lot of nutritive value. I have plain Greek yogurt. 650 00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:31.380 Lots of protein in there. 651 00:31:31.579 --> 00:31:34.940 And I do put fruit on it, Kimber. But it's 652 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:37.279 still kind of sour, depending on the fruit. And I'll 653 00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:39.950 put some nuts or nut butter. I feel like she 654 00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:41.769 gave me a gold star for all that. And if 655 00:31:42.049 --> 00:31:44.269 adding a tablespoon of honey on that gets me to 656 00:31:44.549 --> 00:31:46.470 chow down on that every morning, I feel like it's 657 00:31:46.529 --> 00:31:47.390 probably okay. 658 00:31:48.009 --> 00:31:48.849 But maybe not. 659 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:49.390 I don't know. 660 00:31:49.410 --> 00:31:52.670 Yeah. I mean, that brings us to this bigger question 661 00:31:52.819 --> 00:31:55.619 of like, overall, should we be feeling guilty about having 662 00:31:55.660 --> 00:31:58.289 some sugar in our lives? Like, Kimber's sort of a 663 00:31:58.309 --> 00:32:01.279 stickler when she says, you know, you really shouldn't have 664 00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:05.490 any added sugar. But other scientists are like, oh, no, 665 00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:07.849 like a little is okay. So like, let's look at 666 00:32:07.869 --> 00:32:11.150 what the World Health Organization says. They focus on something 667 00:32:11.210 --> 00:32:14.769 called free sugar. This is basically the sugar that's added 668 00:32:14.809 --> 00:32:18.549 to stuff. And so they recommend that you don't have 669 00:32:18.609 --> 00:32:22.049 more than 10% of your total calories be made up. 670 00:32:21.990 --> 00:32:22.710 Of this sugar. 671 00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:26.599 And research backs this up. Like one big study I 672 00:32:26.640 --> 00:32:30.019 found looked at how much sugar people ate and then 673 00:32:30.059 --> 00:32:33.759 their risk of dying from cardiovascular disease. And you can 674 00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:36.680 see the risk of death starting to creep up around 675 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:37.059 this 10% mark. 676 00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:39.140 Oh, risk of death. 677 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:39.720 Okay. 678 00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:44.819 So 10% of your daily calories is not like that intuitive. 679 00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:48.319 Can you give me something I can really sneak my 680 00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:48.779 teeth into? 681 00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:49.279 Yeah. 682 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.859 So for someone who has 2,000 calories a day, that 683 00:32:51.859 --> 00:32:57.890 10% comes out to 50 grams of sugar. So, for example, 684 00:32:58.130 --> 00:33:01.029 a can of Coke has about 40 grams of sugar 685 00:33:01.069 --> 00:33:03.869 in it. So that would be most of your sugar 686 00:33:03.910 --> 00:33:05.829 budget right there if you had a can of Coke. 687 00:33:06.529 --> 00:33:10.730 Or you could have, like, three chocolate croissants. That's roughly 688 00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:11.930 50 grams of sugar. 689 00:33:11.950 --> 00:33:14.869 Well, because you only put that little nugget of chocolate 690 00:33:14.890 --> 00:33:15.609 in there. 691 00:33:15.650 --> 00:33:17.569 Yeah, it's not actually that much, but that still made 692 00:33:17.589 --> 00:33:21.769 me feel better. You're still eating three croissants. 693 00:33:21.990 --> 00:33:22.650 Yeah. 694 00:33:22.690 --> 00:33:23.589 Some other issues there. 695 00:33:23.630 --> 00:33:23.769 Yeah. 696 00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:28.390 So to me, I was like, oh, that's not too bad. 697 00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:32.579 So I talked about this with Jim
Mann, since he 698 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.799 actually helps the World Health Organization come up with that 699 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:39.099 10% recommendation. Does that mean I can have like a cupcake? Like, 700 00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.839 what does that mean? 701 00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.200 Can you have a cupcake? Sure, you can have a cupcake. 702 00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:45.220 But if you have a cupcake, then don't have something else. 703 00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:50.019 I mean, I had this morning with my coffee, I 704 00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:55.000 had some cheesecake. because there's a certain bakery in this 705 00:33:55.180 --> 00:33:59.480 town that makes very good cheesecake. And my daughter happened 706 00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:01.799 to produce some cheesecake from this bakery. 707 00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:03.019 And I. 708 00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:05.900 Absolutely enjoyed it. 709 00:34:06.190 --> 00:34:09.250 But I mean, I've made a mental note before we 710 00:34:09.289 --> 00:34:12.869 had this conversation without even thinking, well, that's my dose 711 00:34:12.909 --> 00:34:16.309 for the day. And I enjoyed it. And it was 712 00:34:16.449 --> 00:34:22.579 really good. And it enhanced my well-being tremendously. but I 713 00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.719 certainly would not have a dessert tonight. 714 00:34:25.780 --> 00:34:27.869 But you didn't feel guilty about having that slice? 715 00:34:27.969 --> 00:34:29.610 No, I didn't feel I thoroughly enjoyed it. 716 00:34:31.650 --> 00:34:34.050 Yeah, that's reasonable. I mean, full disclosure, I had a 717 00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:36.329 piece of cake before jumping on this call. 718 00:34:37.730 --> 00:34:39.030 I made a cake over the weekend. 719 00:34:39.050 --> 00:34:39.909 Before I told. 720 00:34:39.809 --> 00:34:41.690 You the science of how bad sugar is. 721 00:34:42.269 --> 00:34:44.070 I just gobbled it down. 722 00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:46.469 Then I had honey on my yogurt. So I'm actually 723 00:34:46.489 --> 00:34:48.659 probably over budget today, but I'm definitely not going to 724 00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:50.219 have any more sweets the rest of the day. So 725 00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:51.239 I like his approach. 726 00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:51.679 Yeah. 727 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:52.820 Well, thanks, Rose. 728 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:53.300 Thanks, girl. 729 00:34:57.130 --> 00:34:59.510 So we have 60 citations in this episode. 730 00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:01.329 If you want to look at any of those, read 731 00:35:01.389 --> 00:35:04.130 more about sugar science, then check out our transcripts. 732 00:35:04.250 --> 00:35:05.590 The link is in the show notes. 733 00:35:06.449 --> 00:35:09.329 And the last citation is a special treat, a link 734 00:35:09.349 --> 00:35:12.230 to an episode of Science Versus that was made 10 735 00:35:12.230 --> 00:35:23.099 years ago that was also on sugar. This episode was 736 00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:26.110 produced by me, Meryl Horne, with help from Rose Rimler, 737 00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:29.989 Michelle Dang, and Aketi Foster-Keys. We're edited by Blythe Sorrell. 738 00:35:30.190 --> 00:35:33.650 Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Our executive producer 739 00:35:33.750 --> 00:35:37.409 is Wendy Zuckerman. Fact-checking by Sam Lemenick. Music written by 740 00:35:37.449 --> 00:35:41.639 Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Bumi Hidaka. 741 00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:44.860 Thanks to all the researchers we spoke to, including Professor 742 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:50.340 Barry Popkin, Dr. John White, Dr. Nick Fuller, Professor Paul Breslin, Dr. 743 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:54.150 Richard Johnson, and Dr. Vasanti Malik. Science Versus is a 744 00:35:54.139 --> 00:35:57.510 Spotify Studios original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever 745 00:35:57.530 --> 00:36:00.309 you get your podcasts. And if you do listen on Spotify, 746 00:36:00.349 --> 00:36:03.250 follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. We'll 747 00:36:03.269 --> 00:36:03.750 fact you soon. 748 00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:17.019 It's been a busy week, right? 749 00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:21.380 Sounds like it's time for that takeaway. Deliveroo's on it. 750 00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:26.000 Whether it's extra saucy wings from Nando's, a tasty taco 751 00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:29.199 bowl from Sprout & Co, or maybe even some California 752 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:33.730 birria from Boojum. We'll deliver in as little as 25 minutes. 753 00:36:34.269 --> 00:36:35.949 Order now. You've earned it. 754 00:36:36.409 --> 00:36:36.989 Deliveroo. 755 00:36:37.570 --> 00:36:40.610 That finish line Friday feeling just got even better. 756 00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:43.969 Geographical restrictions, teas and season fees apply. Delivery times vary. 757 00:36:44.010 --> 00:36:45.090 See app or web for info.
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