Full Transcript for Hunting an Invisible Killer

And by the time we knew what viruses were, 38 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.639 there was no one around who was infected with this 39 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:19.780 flu anymore. They'd either recovered or they died. 40 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:19.860 Oh. 41 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.560 So there was really no way for science to know 42 00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:28.280 what had killed all these people? 43 00:02:29.449 --> 00:02:33.550 No, not really. And for a long time, scientists just 44 00:02:33.569 --> 00:02:36.620 sort of resigned themselves to the flu itself as lost 45 00:02:36.629 --> 00:02:41.280 to history. And that was the prevailing thought for decades. 46 00:02:43.259 --> 00:02:46.620 And so without knowing what actually killed these people, science 47 00:02:46.659 --> 00:02:50.939 couldn't answer really basic questions about this pandemic. Like, why 48 00:02:50.979 --> 00:02:54.180 was it so deadly? Could this virus come back and 49 00:02:54.199 --> 00:02:58.599 kill us all again? And solving this scientific riddle... It 50 00:02:58.620 --> 00:03:01.900 would take almost a hundred years, an unlikely hero, and 51 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:05.599 an adventure to the edge of the world and back again. 52 00:03:05.620 --> 00:03:11.689 It was so ghoulish. It was such a weird fixation 53 00:03:11.729 --> 00:03:12.430 that he had. 54 00:03:12.590 --> 00:03:14.889 It just sounded too crazy to be real. 55 00:03:14.949 --> 00:03:19.330 My God, I have a source of frozen bodies. 56 00:03:19.509 --> 00:03:22.610 And I said, they will not let you. And he said, well, 57 00:03:22.949 --> 00:03:23.900 I'm going to try. 58 00:03:23.909 --> 00:03:29.669 So strap in, because it's coming up. just after the break. 59 00:03:42.710 --> 00:03:43.229 Welcome back. 60 00:03:43.810 --> 00:03:45.719 Today, we're on the hunt for one of the worst 61 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:50.240 diseases in modern history, the 1918 flu. If you heard 62 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:52.740 Radiolab a few months ago, they had a great episode 63 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.219 on this flu and told a Cliff Notes version of 64 00:03:55.259 --> 00:03:58.840 this story. But today, our producer Rose Rimler is taking 65 00:03:58.900 --> 00:04:03.520 us on the whole wild ride. And it starts in 66 00:04:03.539 --> 00:04:08.840 the most unlikely place. Basically, next door to Rose. 67 00:04:09.639 --> 00:04:13.110 Yeah, so the scrappy hero of our story is Johan Holten. 68 00:04:13.389 --> 00:04:15.830 And I found out he's actually my neighbor. He lives 69 00:04:16.290 --> 00:04:18.189 just a few miles down the road from where I'm 70 00:04:18.209 --> 00:04:19.889 staying here with my dad in California. 71 00:04:19.910 --> 00:04:20.290 Amazing. 72 00:04:20.310 --> 00:04:20.730 Amazing. 73 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:24.149 So it's an amazing coincidence. I looked him up in 74 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:26.930 the phone book. I called his house. His wife answered. 75 00:04:27.069 --> 00:04:29.350 She said, come on over. You can

interview him. 76 00:04:33.810 --> 00:04:34.490 Mask on. 77 00:04:34.509 --> 00:04:36.060 Yeah. Masked up. 78 00:04:36.310 --> 00:04:36.939 Six feet apart. 79 00:04:36.949 --> 00:04:37.709 Sunny on the hands. 80 00:04:37.750 --> 00:04:38.040 Yep. 81 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:38.399 Yep. 82 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.120 Okay, Johan, your visitor is here. 83 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.319 So, Rose, this is Johan. 84 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:46.399 It's so nice to meet you. 85 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:49.459 Yeah, he is. Nice meeting you. 86 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:50.720 Do you mind if I call you Johan? 87 00:04:51.370 --> 00:04:52.129 I'm delighted. 88 00:04:53.089 --> 00:04:54.069 So what does he look like? 89 00:04:54.810 --> 00:04:56.569 He has white hair. 90 00:04:56.589 --> 00:04:59.889 Of course, he's retired. He's 95. 91 00:04:59.870 --> 00:05:03.600 He used to be an athlete. And apparently he was 92 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:07.240 still hiking around the hills here up until he was 93. 93 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:07.939 Life goals. 94 00:05:08.500 --> 00:05:10.839 He's Swedish and still has a little bit of an accent. 95 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.240 Don't get old, I shall tell you that. 96 00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:18.060 So in about 1950, when Johan's in his mid-20s, he 97 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:20.060 decided to leave Sweden for the U.S. 98 00:05:21.060 --> 00:05:24.500 I came over from Sweden as a graduate student. 99 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:28.319 He went to the University of Iowa. And one day, 100 00:05:28.339 --> 00:05:30.879 he and his buddies in Iowa are gathered around, and 101 00:05:30.899 --> 00:05:33.250 they're talking about how it's still kind of nuts that 102 00:05:33.389 --> 00:05:38.069 science doesn't know what exactly the 1918 flu was. And 103 00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:40.709 some people are saying, it's a shame. There's no way 104 00:05:40.750 --> 00:05:44.129 we can find it. But in this conversation, there just 105 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.379 happens to be a visiting professor who says, You know, 106 00:05:49.459 --> 00:05:52.279 it's possible that there is a live sample of this 107 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:55.399 virus still left somewhere on Earth. 108 00:05:55.480 --> 00:05:59.699 So he said someone actually should go up to Alaska, 109 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:07.730 the frozen north, to find frozen bodies who died in 110 00:06:07.730 --> 00:06:10.790 1918 and they were buried in the permafrost. 111 00:06:11.410 --> 00:06:13.069 They may still be frozen. 112 00:06:13.629 --> 00:06:17.230 The idea here is that in the permafrost, people don't decompose. 113 00:06:17.730 --> 00:06:20.790 their lungs would still be intact. And if they had 114 00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:24.189 died from the flu, then the virus might still be 115 00:06:24.250 --> 00:06:28.439 alive inside their lungs, kind of like in a suspended animation. 116 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.699 Oh, so if we can find people who died from 117 00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:38.459 the flu but haven't completely rotted, like still have preserved lungs, 118 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:41.560 then we might be able to find the virus still 119 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.240 in their lungs and science could take it and study it. 120 00:06:45.509 --> 00:06:48.230 Yeah, exactly. That is wild. 121 00:06:48.870 --> 00:06:52.269 But this visiting professor, he just throws out this idea 122 00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:53.449 into the wind. 123 00:06:53.470 --> 00:06:55.350 He doesn't think anyone's actually going to do it, right? 124 00:06:55.370 --> 00:06:58.290 That's what it sounds like. He didn't really say, like, 125 00:06:58.410 --> 00:07:00.509 this must happen. He was just like, you know, what 126 00:07:01.449 --> 00:07:05.129 might work. But little did he know who was listening. 127 00:07:05.910 --> 00:07:08.470 Johan was kind of the perfect person to overhear that 128 00:07:08.509 --> 00:07:13.350 comment because Johan loves a good adventure. And in fact, 129 00:07:13.449 --> 00:07:15.829 he had just come back from a trip to Alaska. 130 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.660 where he had explored and made a lot of connections. 131 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:21.500 It was a tremendous adventure. 132 00:07:22.019 --> 00:07:24.500 And so this day in Iowa, he's like, oh, I 133 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.319 could actually do that. I could go back to Alaska 134 00:07:27.339 --> 00:07:30.660 and I could find this virus there. And I could 135 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.800 help science understand what it was and why it was 136 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:34.339 so deadly. 137 00:07:36.899 --> 00:07:39.259 Okay, so he gets it in his head that he's 138 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:43.079 going to go on this wild goose chase, effectively. 139 00:07:44.290 --> 00:07:45.050 What does he do next? 140 00:07:45.629 --> 00:07:49.189 So he flies up to Alaska and he gets on, 141 00:07:49.230 --> 00:07:52.269 you know, progressively smaller and smaller airplanes to go to 142 00:07:52.370 --> 00:07:56.779 really small towns that aren't near major cities, mostly. And 143 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.160 he scouts around to see if people buried there would 144 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.319 be buried in land that was still frozen. And eventually 145 00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:06.360 he ends up in a place called Breving Mission, which 146 00:08:06.420 --> 00:08:09.230 is a really small town right on the edge of 147 00:08:09.250 --> 00:08:10.089 the Bering Sea. 148 00:08:10.110 --> 00:08:16.279 And that's what I grew up in. with the ocean 149 00:08:16.339 --> 00:08:19.579 in front of me right there and listening to the 150 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:23.430 waves during the summer and fall up until it freezes. 151 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:27.209 This is Annie Conger. She's a retired school teacher and 152 00:08:27.250 --> 00:08:30.129 a member of the native village of Brevig Mission. It's 153 00:08:30.189 --> 00:08:32.970 a place that can get so cold that icicles form 154 00:08:33.009 --> 00:08:37.009 on your

eyelashes. And the land there is mostly tundra, 155 00:08:37.110 --> 00:08:40.730 so like low grasses and shrubs. And you can see 156 00:08:40.789 --> 00:08:41.889 around for miles. 157 00:08:42.289 --> 00:08:45.289 There's so much to see. It's a beautiful country. 158 00:08:46.269 --> 00:08:48.730 So back in 1918, the flu made it up to Alaska. 159 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:51.710 And when it did, it really devastated a lot of 160 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:54.909 the small towns there. And Brevig Mission was one of them. 161 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:58.299 We lost our great grandparents. 162 00:08:58.580 --> 00:09:01.320 Annie grew up hearing stories about what happened there from 163 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.820 people who survived it. One thing that would happen was 164 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:06.110 people would get these really high fevers. 165 00:09:06.730 --> 00:09:11.529 And the fever was unbearable. They would run out of 166 00:09:11.549 --> 00:09:16.360 their breath. and roll around in the snow to cool off. 167 00:09:16.789 --> 00:09:18.460 And they died really quickly. 168 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:23.419 Once it hit, it hit, and they were gone the 169 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:27.860 next day. People who survived it did not want to 170 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:31.960 talk about it. It was just something horrible. But you 171 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:36.200 could see in their eyes how much it affected them 172 00:09:37.860 --> 00:09:41.419 because it was just horrendous to see, you know, your... 173 00:09:42.820 --> 00:09:48.620 your family, your community, dying one after the other during 174 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:49.539 that time. 175 00:09:54.450 --> 00:09:57.169 When Johan was in Breivik, he also spoke to one 176 00:09:57.210 --> 00:09:58.350 woman who had survived it. 177 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:05.299 She'd been there. She saw it. 90% of the villagers died. 178 00:10:06.679 --> 00:10:14.179 Her family died. She was telling the story. She was 179 00:10:14.220 --> 00:10:19.159 a little kid then. It was a terrible calamity. 180 00:10:22.139 --> 00:10:26.419 Almost all the adults died. and some children. And it 181 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:29.799 happened so fast that all these people were buried together, 182 00:10:30.580 --> 00:10:34.360 about 72 in total. No coffins, they're just placed in 183 00:10:34.379 --> 00:10:38.200 a mass grave in the frozen ground. And this grave 184 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.799 is still there. It's basically a pit in the grassy 185 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:44.330 tundra right along the water. It's marked with a big cross. 186 00:10:47.350 --> 00:10:50.610 And that mass grave was actually why Johan was in 187 00:10:50.649 --> 00:10:55.110 Breivik in 1951. He thought the bodies buried there might 188 00:10:55.129 --> 00:10:58.870 be his best shot at finding flu victims, victims that 189 00:10:58.889 --> 00:11:02.090 still had the virus in their lungs. One of the 190 00:11:02.110 --> 00:11:04.149 first things he does is he goes

to the community 191 00:11:04.250 --> 00:11:07.220 elders and he asks, is this okay if I dig 192 00:11:07.269 --> 00:11:10.279 up this mass grave for science? And what he says 193 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.019 is that he's ultimately hoping to find a vaccine or 194 00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:15.419 some way to stop the virus from ever coming back. 195 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:19.059 And so the community says, okay, you can dig up 196 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:19.519 the grave. 197 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.080 So here it is. Yes, yes, yes. Please. And I 198 00:11:24.100 --> 00:11:24.740 started out. 199 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:27.840 So what did he do? He just starts digging? 200 00:11:28.460 --> 00:11:31.159 Pretty much. He had some tools with him, but nothing fancy. 201 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:35.019 Speed. And the pickaxe. Yeah, this is it. 202 00:11:37.830 --> 00:11:39.970 And this was really hard to work with because the 203 00:11:40.009 --> 00:11:43.230 ground was frozen. So he had to make campfires out 204 00:11:43.269 --> 00:11:46.129 of driftwood to melt the earth bit by bit. 205 00:11:47.769 --> 00:11:51.549 So I just started out digging in the grave. 206 00:11:52.549 --> 00:11:52.690 And. 207 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:57.740 A couple of, about two feet down, there was a 208 00:11:57.759 --> 00:11:58.320 little girl. 209 00:11:58.340 --> 00:11:59.820 A little girl? 210 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:02.840 A little girl. It's 12 years old or something. 211 00:12:05.379 --> 00:12:09.399 There, in the permafrost, he found the body of a girl. 212 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.960 And she was pretty much perfectly preserved. 213 00:12:13.539 --> 00:12:19.200 Looking in good shape. Just like she had died yesterday. 214 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:21.159 Oh, my God. 215 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:24.789 She had actually died 30 years prior. but she still 216 00:12:24.870 --> 00:12:27.990 had her hair and braids. The ribbons were still there. 217 00:12:28.429 --> 00:12:29.870 Her dress was still intact. 218 00:12:30.730 --> 00:12:32.950 Oh, there you are. I mean, look at this. And 219 00:12:33.009 --> 00:12:35.710 that was really amazing. I remember, never forgets. 220 00:12:37.129 --> 00:12:38.470 Why wasn't he horrified? 221 00:12:38.490 --> 00:12:41.990 Well, I think he was. I think there were two 222 00:12:42.049 --> 00:12:44.889 things going on. One is just how incredibly sad it was. 223 00:12:44.970 --> 00:12:46.970 And I do think Johan felt that, and he still 224 00:12:47.070 --> 00:12:49.649 feels it today when he looks back on it. But 225 00:12:49.889 --> 00:12:53.169 on the other side, he realizes that this whole... grave 226 00:12:53.230 --> 00:12:56.850 is full of people who are well-preserved, and that means 227 00:12:56.970 --> 00:13:01.690 that they may still have the virus in them, sort 228 00:13:01.730 --> 00:13:04.620 of in a suspended animation, which is what he was 229 00:13:04.649 --> 00:13:05.399 hoping to find. 230 00:13:05.419 --> 00:13:11.059 Oh, right.

Because if the bodies hadn't have been well-preserved, 231 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.639 and there had been signs that they were rotting, or 232 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:17.460 that this wasn't in a permafrost, this all would have 233 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:18.200 been for nothing. 234 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:18.860 Exactly. 235 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:25.100 I was just astonished. It's Finding this and realizing what 236 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.159 it meant, that here I have a gold mine of 237 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:35.840 information about the disease. Fantastic. I remember it so clearly. 238 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.720 So we call some colleagues who are waiting in Fairbanks, 239 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:41.580 and they come out to help him. And all together, 240 00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:43.440 they dig a little bit more. And so they end 241 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:47.299 up uncovering a few more bodies. And then they open 242 00:13:47.379 --> 00:13:51.220 up these bodies' chests. And they take some pieces from 243 00:13:51.259 --> 00:13:51.740 their lungs. 244 00:13:51.820 --> 00:13:57.480 So they crack open these corpses and then scoop up 245 00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:58.879 a sample of their lungs. 246 00:13:59.259 --> 00:13:59.500 Yeah. 247 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:02.620 And then they cover everyone back up. They go and 248 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.080 say thanks to the community and they're ready to go 249 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.759 back to Iowa. But there's a problem. They have to 250 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.559 keep these samples really cold, of course. That was like 251 00:14:11.659 --> 00:14:14.120 the whole point, that the lungs were cold for many 252 00:14:14.179 --> 00:14:16.639 years and never decomposed. but it's going to take a 253 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.379 little while to get back to Iowa, so they have 254 00:14:18.419 --> 00:14:21.299 to keep them cold. And they had thought of this 255 00:14:21.340 --> 00:14:24.519 ahead of time. They brought thermoses and they brought dry ice, 256 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:27.379 but they didn't bring enough dry ice. And by the 257 00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:29.009 time they needed it, it was all gone. 258 00:14:29.029 --> 00:14:33.289 My God, here's the end of our experiment. 259 00:14:34.690 --> 00:14:35.330 So what do they do? 260 00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:38.590 So Johan thought, it's over. And then he has an idea, 261 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:44.769 which is that maybe the answer lies in fire extinguishers. 262 00:14:46.179 --> 00:14:46.399 What? 263 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.379 So fire extinguishers, at least certain types, when you squeeze 264 00:14:50.419 --> 00:14:53.740 the lever, it makes a big cold cloud. That's what 265 00:14:53.779 --> 00:14:57.159 puts out the fire. And Johan's like, wait, that could 266 00:14:57.179 --> 00:14:57.620 be the answer. 267 00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.240 So I could put a nozzle from the fire extinguisher 268 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.320 right in and blast it.

269 00:15:06.100 --> 00:15:08.279 So when they get to Anchorage. 270 00:15:08.620 --> 00:15:13.639 We went from hardware store to hardware store to hardware 271 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:17.919 store to fire departments that Rounded up all the carbon 272 00:15:17.940 --> 00:15:22.850 dioxide fire extinguishers that existed in that place. 273 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:24.409 You bought all of Anchorage's? 274 00:15:24.429 --> 00:15:27.370 All of them, yes. Oh my gosh. 275 00:15:28.169 --> 00:15:30.309 Basically, every time they get off the plane, because they 276 00:15:30.330 --> 00:15:33.049 have to get off frequently to refuel or to change planes, 277 00:15:33.970 --> 00:15:37.250 Johan takes the fire extinguisher, takes the thermos where he's 278 00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:39.590 got these samples in, and. 279 00:15:40.330 --> 00:15:44.090 Squeeze the handle and a big poof comes up. big 280 00:15:44.149 --> 00:15:48.289 noise and everybody's there by wondering what it was. 281 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:51.009 Oh my gosh, does this work? 282 00:15:51.289 --> 00:15:54.950 Well, so they get back to Iowa. He gets back 283 00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:58.149 to campus. And this is where the story goes from 284 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:02.440 like this adventuring in the field to kind of adventuring 285 00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:05.539 in the lab. So now he's got sort of classic 286 00:16:05.580 --> 00:16:10.320 grad student drudgery work, which is he has to grow 287 00:16:10.360 --> 00:16:12.659 the virus out. So what he was hoping was that 288 00:16:12.700 --> 00:16:15.840 the virus was alive, but sort of in a suspended state, 289 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.370 and he could kind of wake it up. So one 290 00:16:18.389 --> 00:16:20.990 way he does that is taking the human tissue that 291 00:16:21.009 --> 00:16:24.570 he's collected, he grinds it up, and then he injects 292 00:16:24.669 --> 00:16:27.250 it into animals to see if they get sick. 293 00:16:28.009 --> 00:16:32.909 Injected it into live animals, guinea pigs and rabbits, every day, 294 00:16:32.929 --> 00:16:35.720 day after day, week after week. 295 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:38.860 Johan tried over and over again, and he ended up 296 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.279 using all the human tissue that he had brought back. 297 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:45.309 But the lab animals never got sick, which meant. 298 00:16:45.789 --> 00:16:46.110 The. 299 00:16:46.210 --> 00:16:49.350 Virus that I was looking for was dead. And it 300 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:52.470 was all for nothing. 301 00:16:55.450 --> 00:17:00.320 If the virus had been alive, would that have been dangerous? 302 00:17:00.860 --> 00:17:03.799 Yeah, that is the flip side of this coin. I 303 00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:06.779 think it was a risk. I mean, if the virus 304 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.759 was alive, maybe Johan or one of his buddies could 305 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:14.099 have gotten infected. And then, you know, and spread it 306 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.859

to other people. And then whoopsie-daisy, the flu was back. 307 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:19.380 Oh my gosh. But it was dead, so none of 308 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:19.980 that happened. 309 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:20.599 Yeah. 310 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:24.720 They did take some precautions. Johan says his professors weren't 311 00:17:24.740 --> 00:17:27.660 that worried, so he wasn't that worried. But, you know, 312 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:30.000 when I look back, it feels a little bit like 313 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:32.579 a sign of the times. It was the 50s. People 314 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:34.859 were looser with biohazard standards. 315 00:17:35.500 --> 00:17:38.380 These days, you just can't release any viruses anymore, can you? 316 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.599 They really frown on it. So, you know, the fact 317 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.059 that the virus ended up being dead, maybe that was 318 00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:44.660 for the best. 319 00:17:45.319 --> 00:17:52.150 Well, bad for me. Because that was my PhD thesis. 320 00:17:53.710 --> 00:17:55.710 Okay, okay. So what happens next? 321 00:17:56.029 --> 00:17:59.190 So Johan never finished his thesis. And he moves on 322 00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:01.690 with his life. He becomes a doctor. But he never 323 00:18:01.710 --> 00:18:05.670 stops thinking about Brevig Mission and the grave. His wife 324 00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:07.869 Eileen says he even brought it up on one of 325 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:08.710 their first dates. 326 00:18:09.230 --> 00:18:14.180 And I kept hearing about this grave with 72 bodies 327 00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:19.599 in it and how Johan had gone and dug. And 328 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.990 he kept telling me this. And I almost wondered whether 329 00:18:23.089 --> 00:18:26.250 I should see this man again because it was so ghoulish. 330 00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:32.130 It was such a weird, a weird fixation that he had. 331 00:18:37.029 --> 00:18:39.619 After the break, we crack the case of the missing 332 00:18:39.619 --> 00:18:55.180 1918 flu virus wide open. Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, 333 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:55.740 and I want to. 334 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.039 Tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday. 335 00:18:59.220 --> 00:19:01.769 They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird 336 00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:05.849 and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our 337 00:19:05.890 --> 00:19:08.960 brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a 338 00:19:09.059 --> 00:19:10.619 spider on its Welcome back. 339 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:13.160 So we just heard that Johan's trip to Alaska, where 340 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:40.740 he dug up the bodies, was a bust. And Rose 341 00:19:40.779 --> 00:19:41.619 Rimla is here. 342 00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:42.349 Hey, Wendy. 343 00:19:42.549 --> 00:19:44.569 To tell us what happens next. 344 00:19:45.289 --> 00:19:47.990 So his project didn't work because the virus was already dead. 345 00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:50.559 But he kept thinking as the year went on. passed, 346 00:19:51.099 --> 00:19:53.420 what if there was a way to use the dead 347 00:19:53.480 --> 00:19:58.009 virus to be able to understand this killer? Johan's hope 348 00:19:58.049 --> 00:20:01.470 was that science would find a way. And eventually he 349 00:20:02.049 --> 00:20:05.630 was right. But it took until the 90s. That's when 350 00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:07.890 science had come up with a way to get information 351 00:20:08.150 --> 00:20:09.089 out of a dead virus. 352 00:20:10.329 --> 00:20:13.130 Oh, so now we have the technology. 353 00:20:13.650 --> 00:20:16.509 Now we have the technology, and Johan's about to make history. 354 00:20:17.230 --> 00:20:19.990 On this one day, he was so excited he'd been 355 00:20:20.029 --> 00:20:22.269 reading the Science magazine. 356 00:20:22.289 --> 00:20:25.299 Remember where it was? May I interrupt, sir? 357 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:26.380 Absolutely. 358 00:20:26.390 --> 00:20:27.730 We were in Costa Rica. 359 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.059 Johan is retired at this point, and he's on vacation. 360 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:34.279 In Costa Rica, of all things. I happen to have 361 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.119 the latest issue of that. 362 00:20:36.279 --> 00:20:39.519 He's sitting under a tropical fruit tree, reading Science magazine. 363 00:20:40.250 --> 00:20:43.069 And he comes across a paper on the genetics of 364 00:20:43.089 --> 00:20:44.150 the 1918 flu. 365 00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:48.450 Just by chance, and there was a story about a 366 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:51.809 fellow named Taubenberger, Jeffrey Taubenberger. 367 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:54.170 Hello, I'm Jeffrey Taubenberger. 368 00:20:54.750 --> 00:20:58.329 Sounds like you got Jeffrey Taubenberger. That's Jeffrey Taubenberger. 369 00:20:58.390 --> 00:20:59.089 Any questions? 370 00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:00.170 Yes. 371 00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:01.430 Who is this guy? 372 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.039 Today, he works at the National Institute of Allergy and 373 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:09.940 Infectious Diseases, which is where Anthony Fauci works. But back 374 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:12.680 in 1997, he was at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. 375 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:16.980 It's a huge concrete bunker with no windows. It's just 376 00:21:17.019 --> 00:21:21.960 a huge cement steel reinforced block. So it's a horrible 377 00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:22.880 environment to work in. 378 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.640 Jeff and his colleague, Ann Reed, were toiling away in 379 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.400 this bunker. Here's Ann. 380 00:21:27.880 --> 00:21:30.839 We both went to work really early. We would both 381 00:21:30.859 --> 00:21:34.359 get to work about six in the morning. And we would, 382 00:21:34.539 --> 00:21:36.180 you know, make a pot of coffee and sit down 383 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:38.059 and talk in the morning about what we were going 384 00:21:38.079

--> 00:21:38.279 to do. 385 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:41.099 And here's what they were doing. The team was trying 386 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:44.259 to piece together the genetic code of the 1918 virus. 387 00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.400 And they were using slices of lung tissue that had 388 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:50.420 come from soldiers who died of the flu back in 389 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:51.059 World War I. 390 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:56.990 I used to call Jeff Dior because he was always 391 00:21:57.029 --> 00:21:59.970 a glass half empty kind of guy. 392 00:22:00.630 --> 00:22:03.049 Jeff was worried that this wouldn't work because the samples 393 00:22:03.089 --> 00:22:05.670 they had, which were stuck in paraffin wax, they were 394 00:22:05.829 --> 00:22:06.690 teeny tiny. 395 00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:11.750 About the size of a fingernail. That's it. And maybe 396 00:22:11.809 --> 00:22:16.079 a quarter of an inch thick. That's it. I think 397 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:19.319 most people at the Institute thought it was kind of 398 00:22:19.339 --> 00:22:20.579 a crazy idea. 399 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.240 We didn't think it would work. The virus was completely degraded. 400 00:22:24.259 --> 00:22:28.910 And so you could only detect little pieces of it 401 00:22:28.930 --> 00:22:29.470 at the time. 402 00:22:30.109 --> 00:22:34.079 And my boss at the time actually said, suggested that 403 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.359 maybe we stop working on it after about six months 404 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.619 with no success, saying that, you see, this isn't going 405 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.089 to work and you're kind of wasting resources, so maybe 406 00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:41.880 you shouldn't do that. 407 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:43.470 Well, that's very discouraging. 408 00:22:44.750 --> 00:22:46.529 But luckily, I didn't listen. 409 00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:49.990 So in that science paper, Jeff and Anne explained that 410 00:22:50.009 --> 00:22:52.190 they were having a little bit of luck finding the 411 00:22:52.230 --> 00:22:56.789 virus's genetic code in these samples. And Anne, who's basically 412 00:22:56.809 --> 00:22:59.750 the tigger of this partnership, was really excited about it. 413 00:23:00.259 --> 00:23:04.319 Every time I got another 80 bases of that virus, 414 00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:09.670 I was the first person who'd ever seen it. And 415 00:23:09.730 --> 00:23:14.049 we were the first people to maybe have the answer 416 00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:17.390 to where this virus came from and why it was 417 00:23:17.450 --> 00:23:18.180 so lethal. 418 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:21.380 But before they could answer those questions, they needed more 419 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:25.380 bits of virus, which meant they needed more samples. And 420 00:23:25.420 --> 00:23:27.759 when Johan reads this paper written by Jeff and his 421 00:23:27.819 --> 00:23:31.400 team under that fruit tree in Costa Rica, he's like. 422 00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:34.799 My God,

maybe he would be interested in the specimen 423 00:23:35.319 --> 00:23:41.339 from Alaska. He's looking in paraffin blocks, and I have 424 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:46.950 a source of frozen bodies in Alaska. I can go 425 00:23:47.029 --> 00:23:47.710 back there. 426 00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:50.390 This is like the Mighty Ducks when they're coming back. 427 00:23:52.150 --> 00:23:59.589 You need to see some newer movies. So Johan wrote 428 00:23:59.630 --> 00:24:02.430 a letter explaining who he was and saying he would 429 00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:05.099 be happy to go back to Alaska and bring specimens 430 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:05.819 back for Jeff. 431 00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:10.940 And Jeff came into my office with it. I remember 432 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:15.720 it being like three or four pages long. And with 433 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:20.109 this sort of amazing story of his efforts in the 434 00:24:20.509 --> 00:24:23.109 50s and how he had not succeeded, so he never 435 00:24:23.150 --> 00:24:27.369 got his PhD and went to medical school instead. Sort 436 00:24:27.390 --> 00:24:30.740 of incredible. And I think we both looked at each 437 00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:33.690 other and thought, wow. this can't be real. This has 438 00:24:33.710 --> 00:24:38.309 got to be like a joke or a prank or something. 439 00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:42.859 It just sounded too crazy to be real. But Jeff 440 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:46.019 called him and it was, you know, totally legit. And 441 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:51.160 he was completely willing to fly back up there and 442 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:52.420 do this project again. 443 00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.579 And so I was immediately thinking in the lines of 444 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:57.980 a kind of a typical scientific thing. Okay, if we're 445 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.089 going to go to Alaska and do this, we'd have 446 00:25:00.130 --> 00:25:02.170 to write grants. We'd have to think, you know, that 447 00:25:02.210 --> 00:25:06.269 maybe we could do this in two years. And on 448 00:25:06.309 --> 00:25:09.259 a phone call where I described that, he said, next. 449 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:10.200 Week, I can go next week. 450 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.180 Johan was like, there's no need for grants or anything 451 00:25:15.220 --> 00:25:16.980 like that. I'm just going to fly up there with 452 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:20.029 my own money. I'll just get it rolling. Eileen was 453 00:25:20.119 --> 00:25:20.809 less excited. 454 00:25:21.509 --> 00:25:22.470 I was horrified. 455 00:25:23.269 --> 00:25:23.549 Why? 456 00:25:24.650 --> 00:25:29.420 He was 73 or 74 by this time. And I 457 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.519 know he's kind of crazy. I know that there is 458 00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:36.319 an element of Johan which is, you know, I can 459 00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:41.460 do this, which is not always totally realistic. And I 460 00:25:41.549 --> 00:25:43.349 did not think it was realistic. 461 00:25:43.849 --> 00:25:46.170 Her biggest doubt was she didn't think that the village 462 00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:48.309 would allow him to dig in the grave this time. 463 00:25:48.869 --> 00:25:51.289 I said, they will not let you. They may have 464 00:25:51.329 --> 00:25:55.269 let you open that grave in 1951. I said, the 465 00:25:55.309 --> 00:25:57.950 world is very different now. They will not let you. 466 00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:00.720 And he said, well, I'm going to try. 467 00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:03.440 He spends a couple days getting ready. 468 00:26:04.059 --> 00:26:07.779 Scurried around like an eager beaver to put a duffel 469 00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:08.619 bag together. 470 00:26:09.059 --> 00:26:13.079 And flies back, does the multiple flights to get back 471 00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:18.140 to Breivik Mission. And funnily enough, there is someone there 472 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:21.579 who remembers him. And she says to Johan. 473 00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:27.680 I remember my grandma talking about this young guy who 474 00:26:27.740 --> 00:26:30.650 came up there and wanted to dig in a cemetery. 475 00:26:30.950 --> 00:26:33.529 He spoke to Rita Olana, and she is the granddaughter 476 00:26:33.789 --> 00:26:37.150 of the woman who Johan talked to the first time 477 00:26:37.170 --> 00:26:39.089 around when he was a young man. Oh, my gosh. 478 00:26:39.809 --> 00:26:41.470 And so I called Rita. I talked to her a 479 00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:43.309 little bit about it, and she said she was on 480 00:26:43.369 --> 00:26:46.630 board pretty much right away because she believed in the mission. 481 00:26:48.029 --> 00:26:52.180 If they found something to fight the next pandemic, I 482 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:56.299 know that would really help. It would benefit the whole world. 483 00:26:58.529 --> 00:27:00.349 In the end, they decided to give him permission to 484 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:04.430 dig again. This time, more of the bodies have decomposed. 485 00:27:04.789 --> 00:27:08.190 He doesn't have as good of luck. But he eventually 486 00:27:08.289 --> 00:27:13.450 does find one body, which still has tissue preserved. And importantly, 487 00:27:13.539 --> 00:27:15.980 her lungs are still there, and they're still in pretty 488 00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:20.359 good shape. So when Johan sees this body, he gives 489 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.279 the person a nickname. 490 00:27:22.099 --> 00:27:26.789 Lucy, that comes from Latin, light, shedding light on. 491 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:32.940 Johan had a sense the instant he saw Lucy. That 492 00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:35.339 was a dramatic moment for him. 493 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.900 So he takes samples from Lucy's lungs. And, you know, 494 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:43.700 this is the 90s, so the technology has advanced. He 495 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:46.240 doesn't have to deal with the weird fire extinguisher thing 496 00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:49.519 this time. He puts the samples in chemicals to preserve them. 497

00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:54.119 And then he carefully mails them to Jeff. He does 498 00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:57.400 this in different packages. because he's a little bit anxious 499 00:27:57.480 --> 00:27:59.660 at the idea that they could get lost in transit. 500 00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:02.390 That would be it. There's no more in the world. 501 00:28:02.890 --> 00:28:06.130 That is it. It was that precious. 502 00:28:07.170 --> 00:28:09.809 All the packages all arrived safely in our lab. None 503 00:28:09.829 --> 00:28:10.930 of it was lost in the mail. 504 00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:13.609 So Jeff and his team get to work. The first 505 00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:15.930 step was to see if little pieces of the virus 506 00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:18.930 were there at all. And about a week later, he 507 00:28:19.029 --> 00:28:19.829 called the Holtons. 508 00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:22.990 The phone rang. I picked it up and it was 509 00:28:23.069 --> 00:28:25.849 Jeffrey and he said, is Johan there? And I said, yes, 510 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:29.099 and I handed the phone over to Johan and his 511 00:28:29.339 --> 00:28:34.420 face absolutely lighted up and they chatted and I realized 512 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:36.240 it was very good news. 513 00:28:36.660 --> 00:28:41.430 He said, we have it, Johan, we have it. Knowing 514 00:28:41.450 --> 00:28:44.789 the history of the disease, this is big stuff. 515 00:28:45.650 --> 00:28:47.950 And how did it feel for you personally to have 516 00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:49.170 accomplished that goal? 517 00:28:49.250 --> 00:28:49.650 Yeah. 518 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:52.140 Felt very good. 519 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.829 He's Swedish. 520 00:28:56.049 --> 00:28:58.630 You don't answer questions like that. 521 00:28:58.710 --> 00:28:59.369 You're very modest. 522 00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:03.109 It's a question of modesty, and it's a question of feelings, 523 00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:06.630 and you don't get into feelings if you're Swedish, do you, dear? 524 00:29:06.890 --> 00:29:12.730 No. Really, I need a bourbon or something. I'll fix 525 00:29:12.750 --> 00:29:14.950 you a bourbon. 526 00:29:16.029 --> 00:29:18.269 So Johan's work was over, and now it's up to 527 00:29:18.329 --> 00:29:21.160 Jeff and Anne to They have to take these samples 528 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:24.420 and eke out the rest of the genetic code of 529 00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.500 the virus. And they hope that once they have that, 530 00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:31.289 they can figure out why it was so deadly. Here's Anne. 531 00:29:31.930 --> 00:29:34.349 It took us seven years to sequence the whole virus. 532 00:29:34.730 --> 00:29:35.269 Seven years. 533 00:29:35.289 --> 00:29:35.369 Yeah. 534 00:29:37.150 --> 00:29:38.829 You can do it on your coffee break now. 535 00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:39.670 It was. 536 00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:41.519 Yeah. 537 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.400 I mean, when the coronavirus was sequenced in a week, 538 00:29:44.420 --> 00:29:48.690 I'm like, oh, my gosh. If only. 539 00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:52.569 So it was a slog. But by 2005, they had 540 00:29:52.589 --> 00:29:57.849 the whole sequence at hand. And that meant that they 541 00:29:57.890 --> 00:30:00.589 had the identity of one of the worst killers in 542 00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:04.150 world history, which made big news. 543 00:30:05.539 --> 00:30:09.079 The genome of the Spanish influenza virus has finally been 544 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:10.240 completely sequenced. 545 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.480 The 1918 flu virus that killed tens of millions of 546 00:30:15.559 --> 00:30:17.480 people around the world is back. 547 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:19.940 For now, researchers are hoping that it may help develop 548 00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:23.750 vaccines to protect against any future global flu pandemic. 549 00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:29.109 You know, it was... A huge medical mystery, probably considered 550 00:30:29.150 --> 00:30:31.710 one of the biggest medical mysteries of all time, that 551 00:30:31.730 --> 00:30:36.069 you have the worst infectious disease outbreak since going back 552 00:30:36.109 --> 00:30:39.029 to the Black Death that we knew nothing about. 553 00:30:40.269 --> 00:30:43.210 And other scientists felt the same way. One scientist said, 554 00:30:43.720 --> 00:30:47.180 and I quote, this is huge, huge, huge. 555 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.240 So what did they work out? Why so huge? 556 00:30:52.500 --> 00:30:57.599 Three huges, yeah. Once they had this genome... Pretty much 557 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.180 right away, they could work out two things. One, they 558 00:31:00.220 --> 00:31:02.440 figured out where it came from, and they also figured 559 00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:05.160 out where it went. So they learned that it came 560 00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:08.869 originally from birds, wild birds. And then as far as 561 00:31:08.910 --> 00:31:11.910 where it went, even though it seems like the flu 562 00:31:11.930 --> 00:31:15.589 just sort of mysteriously disappeared, it actually didn't go anywhere. 563 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:17.779 It stuck around and mutated. 564 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:21.240 From a genetic standpoint and from the standpoint of the virus, 565 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:22.299 the 1918 flu never went away fully. 566 00:31:24.410 --> 00:31:27.099 We can tell from the sequence that it kind of 567 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:30.180 turned into seasonal flus that still go around today. 568 00:31:30.539 --> 00:31:31.259 That's amazing. 569 00:31:31.660 --> 00:31:34.660 And to this day, scientists are still pouring over this flu, 570 00:31:35.180 --> 00:31:37.400 trying to learn more about it and figure out what 571 00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:40.069 makes it tick. They want to learn why exactly it 572 00:31:40.109 --> 00:31:42.910 was so deadly, how it can be used to make 573 00:31:43.009 --> 00:31:46.609 a vaccine in the future. It's all really like exciting, 574 00:31:46.849 --> 00:31:52.490 burgeoning research. And it's pretty wild to think that this 575 00:31:52.619 --> 00:31:57.210 whole branch of study is possible in large part because 576 00:31:57.349 --> 00:32:01.369 of Johan you know my friendly neighbor from Sweden I. 577 00:32:04.059 --> 00:32:08.079 Have an expression that everything doesn't go wrong all the 578 00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:12.079 time now and then things do not go wrong. 579 00:32:13.670 --> 00:32:14.970 That's science verses. 580 00:32:20.440 --> 00:32:22.660 If you want to hear more about stories from the 581 00:32:22.660 --> 00:32:25.230 1918 flu, you should check out that Radiolab episode. 582 00:32:25.589 --> 00:32:28.490 It's called Dispatches from 1918. 583 00:32:28.490 --> 00:32:31.279 And there's a great book written about this whole adventure 584 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:33.359 by Gina Collada called Flu. 585 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:39.500 Thank you. 586 00:33:01.339 --> 00:33:06.759 Robin Russell, Rachel Cohen, Warren Kakuna, Brian Crockett, Trifawn Angerson, 587 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:09.799 Brad Angerson, Matt Ganley, Dr. 588 00:33:09.880 --> 00:33:13.480 Adam Laring, Dr. Matt Memoli, Professor Susan. 589 00:33:13.220 --> 00:33:16.829 Jones, and everyone else we spoke to for this episode. Plus, 590 00:33:16.990 --> 00:33:20.789 a big thanks to Brendan Klinkenberg, Walter Rimler, the Zuckerman family, 591 00:33:20.970 --> 00:33:22.049 and Joseph LaBelle Wilson. 592 00:33:22.650 --> 00:33:24.509 I'm Wendy Zuckerman. I'll fact you next time. 593 00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:35.019 What do you think, what would you say you're most 594 00:33:35.099 --> 00:33:35.660 proud of? 595 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.769 Fagling her in. 596 00:33:40.869 --> 00:33:44.109 Isn't that cute? Yeah, that was a nice answer. You 597 00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:45.650 get lots of brownie points for that.