Full Transcript for Guns

00:03:56.979 --> 00:04:00.840 do guns have on the overall crime rate? And then 82 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.360 next week, we're going to stare down the barrel of 83 00:04:03.419 --> 00:04:10.300 gun control, so whether laws that restrict guns actually save lives. Now, 84 00:04:10.419 --> 00:04:14.590 to be clear, although the Constitution is a lovely document, 85 00:04:15.310 --> 00:04:18.269 it's not a peer-reviewed journal. So you will be hearing 86 00:04:18.310 --> 00:04:20.949 the words the Second Amendment and the right to bear 87 00:04:21.089 --> 00:04:25.189 arms only once in this podcast. And you just heard them, 88 00:04:25.769 --> 00:04:28.949 because today we're talking science. 89 00:04:31.699 --> 00:04:35.879 Let's get into it. Bullet point number one, self-defence. 90 00:04:36.529 --> 00:04:40.519 Best estimates suggest there are more than 300 million guns 91 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:42.819 in the US right now, a number that has been 92 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:46.740 slowly rising. And I say best estimates because no one 93 00:04:46.779 --> 00:04:51.610 really knows. Guns aren't traced very effectively around the states. Still, 94 00:04:51.620 --> 00:04:58.490 a recent Pew survey, Pew Pew survey, suggests that 34% 95 00:04:58.490 --> 00:05:03.029 of US homes have guns in them. And the main 96 00:05:03.069 --> 00:05:09.579 reason Americans buy guns, according to the is to defend 97 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:13.939 themselves and their property. The survey found that almost half 98 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:17.600 of Americans who own guns say they have it for protection. 99 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:21.269 And this idea that you need a gun to protect 100 00:05:21.290 --> 00:05:25.029 yourself is promoted by the National Rifle Association. 101 00:05:25.329 --> 00:05:29.649 The only thing that stops a bad guy with a 102 00:05:29.769 --> 00:05:32.629 gun is a good guy with a gun. 103 00:05:33.430 --> 00:05:36.410 This is Wayne LaPierre, CEO of the NRA. He's speaking 104 00:05:36.490 --> 00:05:37.310 at a press conference. 105 00:05:38.009 --> 00:05:42.259 And when you hear your glass breaking at 3am and 106 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:46.899 you call 911, you won't be able to pray hard 107 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:50.399 enough for a gun in the hands of a good 108 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:54.480 guy to get there fast enough to protect you. 109 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:58.730 And Anthony Calandro, owner of Gun For Hire, he agrees 110 00:05:58.750 --> 00:05:59.060 with this. 111 00:05:59.620 --> 00:06:01.750 There's an old saying, when you need help in seconds, 112 00:06:01.810 --> 00:06:04.889 the police arrive in minutes. But if you're home alone, 113 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:07.709 who's going to protect you? If two men were trying 114 00:06:07.730 --> 00:06:11.589 to break into your house, a firearm is the ultimate equalizer. 115 00:06:11.889 --> 00:06:14.250 Anthony says he's never had to use a gun to 116 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:17.040 protect himself, but he likes the idea that he's ready 117 00:06:17.379 --> 00:06:19.699 if something, anything, would happen. 118 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:21.220 When I go to a restaurant, I sit with my 119 00:06:21.259 --> 00:06:23.160 back to the wall because I need to see who's 120 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.519 coming in and out and watch everything because no one's 121 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:26.339 sneaking up on me. 122 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:28.079 Where did that begin? 123 00:06:28.110 --> 00:06:30.529 I have no idea. I think you're just, some people 124 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:33.509 are born that way. And I was born that way. 125 00:06:33.529 --> 00:06:34.990 You know, they say, what do they call you, sheepdog? 126 00:06:35.110 --> 00:06:37.199 If you're born that way, you have that sheepdog mentality. 127 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:38.399 It's just the way I am. 128 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:42.310 But how many people in America will actually use their 129 00:06:42.329 --> 00:06:43.629 guns for self-defense? 130 00:06:44.370 --> 00:06:44.569 Well. 131 00:06:45.060 --> 00:06:48.100 There is one number that gets cited quite a bit 132 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:48.899 in the media. 133 00:06:49.259 --> 00:06:53.860 There are 2.5 million defensive uses of guns every year. 134 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:55.240 It's like 2.5 million. 135 00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:57.160 Two and a half million times a year. 136 00:06:57.160 --> 00:06:58.560 2.5 million times. 137 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.879 2.5 million times last year, law-abiding citizens pulled guns in 138 00:07:01.899 --> 00:07:02.959 self-defense and saved lives. 139 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:05.920 So let's take a closer look at this number. Where 140 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:09.199 did it come from and can we trust it? Let's 141 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:13.420 start with the man responsible for it, Gary Kleck. He's 142 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:16.970 a professor of criminology at Florida State University and he's 143 00:07:17.009 --> 00:07:19.629 been writing about guns for decades. 144 00:07:20.870 --> 00:07:22.170 Do you own a gun yourself? 145 00:07:23.230 --> 00:07:26.529 I never answer that question. The reason being that people 146 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:29.639 use it as an excuse for not thinking about the 147 00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:32.060 issues but just judging what people have to say and 148 00:07:32.100 --> 00:07:33.480 that's foolish. 149 00:07:34.060 --> 00:07:36.319 Gary's study was the first to come up with this 150 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:39.899 number that there are 2.5 million defensive gun uses. 151 00:07:40.730 --> 00:07:41.709 And here's how he got it. 152 00:07:43.740 --> 00:07:48.459 Back in the early 1990s, Gary's team surveyed just under 5,000 153 00:07:48.459 --> 00:07:51.290 people to ask them, have you used a gun, even 154 00:07:51.329 --> 00:07:54.589 if it wasn't fired, for self-protection or the protection of 155 00:07:54.689 --> 00:07:57.310 property at home, work or elsewhere? 156 00:07:58.209 -->

00:07:59.850 And he found that 1.3%, that is 66 people, said 157 00:07:59.889 --> 00:08:06.829 that they had. So then. 158 00:08:06.850 --> 00:08:09.310 You take the percent of the sample who said they 159 00:08:09.730 --> 00:08:12.810 had that experience and multiply it times the population. 160 00:08:13.149 --> 00:08:17.509 So he took those 66 people, that 1.3%, and multiplied 161 00:08:17.550 --> 00:08:21.110 it by the adult population of the US, which equals... OK, 162 00:08:22.389 --> 00:08:27.310 so you've got to carry the one and. 163 00:08:28.329 --> 00:08:29.810 Two and a half million times a year. 164 00:08:31.410 --> 00:08:34.389 You never, ever, ever, ever sort of do that. You 165 00:08:34.429 --> 00:08:35.240 never extrapolate. 166 00:08:36.169 --> 00:08:39.529 This is David Hemenway, a professor of health policy at 167 00:08:39.590 --> 00:08:40.549 Harvard University. 168 00:08:41.210 --> 00:08:43.230 And he takes issue with Gary's methods. 169 00:08:43.629 --> 00:08:48.919 Nobody who has any training in epidemiology would ever extrapolate 170 00:08:49.700 --> 00:08:50.980 the 1% of people. 171 00:08:51.259 --> 00:08:55.799 David says multiplying out 1.3%, which in this study, remember, 172 00:08:55.879 --> 00:09:01.250 was only 66 people, to the population of America is dangerous. 173 00:09:01.990 --> 00:09:04.330 And here's why. Let me give you an example. 174 00:09:05.629 --> 00:09:08.809 A recent US survey of more than 5,000 women who 175 00:09:08.850 --> 00:09:14.399 had been pregnant found that 45 women, or 0.8% of them, 176 00:09:14.980 --> 00:09:18.659 consistently affirmed that they had had a virgin birth. 177 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:21.950 The survey was published in the British Medical Journal. 178 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:25.480 Now, if you pull a Gary Kleck and multiply that 179 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:29.870 out to the number of women who gave birth in, say, 2013, 180 00:09:29.870 --> 00:09:34.289 you'd find that there would be around 31,000 women in 181 00:09:34.350 --> 00:09:37.250 America who were virgins when they had their bubs. 182 00:09:38.110 --> 00:09:42.360 So, in just a decade, there might be 310,000 Jesus babies. Well, hallelujah! 183 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:55.629 The point is they were mistaken. They had sex and 184 00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:59.889 then they had babies. The other point is. 185 00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:04.230 that when you're talking about very small percentages being multiplied 186 00:10:04.350 --> 00:10:08.309 out to very big populations, a few people being mistaken 187 00:10:08.750 --> 00:10:12.350 can lead to a very big wrong number, which is 188 00:10:12.409 --> 00:10:15.120 why no scientist would say that there were 31,000 virgin 189 00:10:15.129 --> 00:10:20.669 births in the US in 2013. I asked Gary about 190 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:24.320 whether his very big number on defensive gun uses might 191 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:25.240 also have this problem. 192 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.340 The percentage point is very small. 193 00:10:28.980 --> 00:10:34.460 So if you're a little bit off, then actually it's orders. 194 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:37.019 Of magnitude that this figure could be wrong, right? 195 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:39.559 Not if it's a little bit off. It could be 196 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.690 orders of magnitude off if it's way off. 197 00:10:42.850 --> 00:10:45.990 But if it's, say, one percentage point off, if it's 198 00:10:46.110 --> 00:10:49.190 one percentage point off, this could be a problem. 199 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:53.840 If, yeah, I mean, you can speculate anything if it were, 200 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:58.539 but of course we don't have the slightest evidence to 201 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.600 support that view and we have ample evidence to contradict it, 202 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:04.279 which is the results of the other surveys, which always 203 00:11:04.350 --> 00:11:07.049 indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses. 204 00:11:07.470 --> 00:11:11.190 Yes, other surveys do exist. And yes, they have gotten 205 00:11:11.250 --> 00:11:15.389 similar figures, around 1%. But David Hemenway, who has actually 206 00:11:15.470 --> 00:11:18.779 done some of these surveys, says that just because you 207 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:23.580 can replicate a result, it doesn't mean it's true. 208 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:23.669 Why? 209 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.529 Because sometimes people lie, leave stuff out, or just misremember, 210 00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:32.049 and they do it in the same pattern over and 211 00:11:32.230 --> 00:11:36.580 over again. David points to surveys about how many sexual 212 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:38.820 partners straight men and women have had. 213 00:11:39.259 --> 00:11:41.200 So you can ask people in the United States over 214 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:43.159 and over and over, and the men will always tell 215 00:11:43.210 --> 00:11:46.669 you more than the women. That doesn't mean that's true. 216 00:11:47.429 --> 00:11:50.070 And you're just looking at heterosexual couples. It doesn't mean 217 00:11:50.129 --> 00:11:50.509 it's true. 218 00:11:50.870 --> 00:11:53.809 That is, either there is a small group of horny 219 00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:58.620 women out there and props to them, or men are lying, 220 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:02.549 or women are lying, or both are lying. Given what 221 00:12:02.590 --> 00:12:05.710 we know about people, it's likely that someone is lying. 222 00:12:06.269 --> 00:12:08.980 And David Hemenway thinks this is what is happening in 223 00:12:09.009 --> 00:12:12.460 these gun surveys. Just like when you ask guys, how 224 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.120 many people have you slept with? If you ask Americans 225 00:12:15.259 --> 00:12:18.340 how many times they've used their gun defensively, they tend 226 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.539 to inflate the number. So if Gary's numbers are wrong, 227 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:25.649 do we have any idea how many people use their 228

00:12:25.669 --> 00:12:28.029 guns defensively in America each year? 229 00:12:28.889 --> 00:12:29.809 Yes, we do. 230 00:12:30.860 --> 00:12:35.820 Meet the National Crime Victimisation Survey. Forget Gary's 5,000 people 231 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:40.440 and extrapolating. This beast interviews around 90,000 people, so it's 232 00:12:40.580 --> 00:12:44.549 much more reliable. And it's considered the gold standard amongst 233 00:12:44.610 --> 00:12:48.409 researchers in this field. But it's not just the size 234 00:12:48.450 --> 00:12:50.590 of this survey that makes it more trustworthy. 235 00:12:50.950 --> 00:12:53.409 It's also the way they ask the questions. 236 00:12:54.230 --> 00:12:57.049 So rather than straight out asking people, do you use 237 00:12:57.070 --> 00:13:00.809 your gun for self-protection, which can overestimate results because people 238 00:13:00.850 --> 00:13:04.850 like to boast, this survey first establishes that someone was 239 00:13:04.909 --> 00:13:08.029 the victim of a crime. And then they ask, did 240 00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:11.350 you do anything with the idea of protecting yourself or 241 00:13:11.389 --> 00:13:13.509 your property while the incident was going on? 242 00:13:16.179 --> 00:13:18.379 Freeze, you diseased rhinoceros pizzled. 243 00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:23.039 Now, according to data from this survey, there are only 244 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:27.379 around 100,000 defensive gun uses per year in the US. 245 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:32.789 So that's much smaller than Gary Collect's 2.5 million. And 246 00:13:32.830 --> 00:13:35.889 when you look into the details of this survey, you 247 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:38.370 find that a lot of common images that we have 248 00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:42.370 about guns that are used defensively don't hold up. 249 00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:43.710 Ha! 250 00:13:44.610 --> 00:13:47.100 Hold up! So, for example. 251 00:13:47.649 --> 00:13:50.379 More than 80% of the time, the people who said 252 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:53.820 they used their gun defensively also said that they were 253 00:13:53.860 --> 00:13:57.710 the only person with the gun in the altercation. So 254 00:13:57.730 --> 00:13:59.549 much for a good guy with a gun facing off 255 00:13:59.590 --> 00:14:03.470 against a bad guy with a gun. Another image that 256 00:14:03.509 --> 00:14:06.190 the gun lobby likes to promote is a woman pulling 257 00:14:06.269 --> 00:14:08.840 out a gun to protect herself against a man in 258 00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:12.549 an alley or trying to break into her home. This 259 00:14:12.610 --> 00:14:16.269 is from a 2013 speech by the NRA's Wayne LaPierre. 260 00:14:16.389 --> 00:14:20.669 The one thing a violent rapist deserves to face is 261 00:14:20.769 --> 00:14:22.509 a good woman with a gun. 262 00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:28.179 Firstly, only 13% of rapes in the US are committed 263 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:31.500 by strangers. Most rapists are known to the victim. They're 264 00:14:31.519

--> 00:14:34.700 often married or related to her. So the vast majority 265 00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:39.360 of sexual assaults aren't happening in dark alleyways. And then 266 00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:43.019 when we look at the Crime Victimisation Survey... Of the 267 00:14:43.019 --> 00:14:46.159 337 women in the sample who had been sexually assaulted, 268 00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:51.519 none used a gun in self-defence. And just to challenge 269 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.940 one more popular image that we have, you brandish your 270 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:59.159 gun and. 271 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:58.340 The bad guy flees. 272 00:14:59.659 --> 00:15:04.259 Well, sometimes things don't turn out that way. Using data 273 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.440 from that big survey, David Hemenway found that when people 274 00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:10.720 used a gun to protect their property, it did work. 275 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:12.679 Two-thirds of the time. 276 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.019 Yes, there's a bit of suggestive evidence that having a 277 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:20.440 gun may reduce property loss, but the evidence is equally 278 00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:24.000 compelling that having mace or a baseball bat will reduce 279 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:24.620 property loss. 280 00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:27.870 In other words, just yelling at the guy, turning on 281 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:30.149 the lights or threatening to call the police were pretty 282 00:15:30.210 --> 00:15:33.769 good tactics too. When people did that, it worked about 283 00:15:33.850 --> 00:15:34.470 half the time. 284 00:15:36.309 --> 00:15:36.730 Conclusion. 285 00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:41.330 Best estimates reckon there are around 100,000 defensive gun uses 286 00:15:41.429 --> 00:15:46.480 in America each year, not 2.5 million. And using guns 287 00:15:46.580 --> 00:15:50.360 in self-defence is slightly more effective at scaring bad guys 288 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:55.360 than doing other things. But we've got to weigh this 289 00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:59.529 small benefit against the bad things that guns can do. 290 00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:17.190 And that's coming up. Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, 291 00:16:17.289 --> 00:16:19.289 and I want to tell you about a podcast that 292 00:16:19.409 --> 00:16:21.049 I love, Science Friday. 293 00:16:21.230 --> 00:16:23.769 They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird 294 00:16:23.809 --> 00:16:27.860 and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our 295 00:16:27.889 --> 00:16:30.950 brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a 296 00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:33.600 spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that 297 00:16:33.659 --> 00:16:36.100 you can use and some that you can't, but you're 298 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:36.960 going to love anyway. 299 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:38.480 It's hosted by Ira Flato and Phyllis. 300 00:16:39.320 --> 00:16:42.399 Flora lichtman who is an old friend of the show 301 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.320 and

loves a pun as much as we do science 302 00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:48.549 friday is on every day wherever you get your podcasts 303 00:16:51.769 --> 00:16:55.909 welcome back to science versus that was too peppy we're 304 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:56.860 talking about guns. 305 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:00.179 Welcome back to science versus. 306 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.819 When we talk about gun deaths in America, the public 307 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:09.119 often focuses on accidental deaths, often involving kids, and also 308 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:09.980 mass shootings. 309 00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:13.579 These are horrifying, but they're rare. 310 00:17:14.500 --> 00:17:18.059 More than 30,000 people in America die from guns annually. 311 00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.880 On top of that, there are more than 81,000 non-fatal 312 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:22.789 gun injuries. 313 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.549 And according to Professor David Hemenway's research, of the 30,000 314 00:17:26.549 --> 00:17:27.069 annual gun deaths. 315 00:17:29.089 --> 00:17:33.769 around 110 kids are killed accidentally by firearms each year. 316 00:17:34.869 --> 00:17:37.029 Mass shootings are harder to put a figure on because 317 00:17:37.109 --> 00:17:40.569 people have different definitions of mass. But any way you 318 00:17:40.609 --> 00:17:43.930 count them, the maximum number of deaths each year is 319 00:17:43.970 --> 00:17:47.710 in the hundreds, not thousands. So they are a very 320 00:17:47.829 --> 00:17:55.400 small proportion of overall gun homicides. So, who's doing most 321 00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:59.440 of the shooting and killing? Well, most of the time, 322 00:18:00.700 --> 00:18:05.460 it's people killing themselves. According to the Centers for Disease 323 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:09.970 Control and Prevention, about two-thirds of America's gun. 324 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:13.869 Deaths are suicides. But when you talk to people like 325 00:18:13.970 --> 00:18:17.849 Anthony Calandro, owner of Gun for Hire, they don't think 326 00:18:17.869 --> 00:18:18.990 that guns are the problem. 327 00:18:19.730 --> 00:18:24.430 Suicides are a tragedy. And if you press the button 328 00:18:24.470 --> 00:18:28.660 tomorrow and all guns in this country disappeared, The suicide 329 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.589 rate's not going to go down. The avenue or choice 330 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:36.769 of taking their own lives is going to change. Hanging, drowning, asphyxiation, pills, 331 00:18:36.849 --> 00:18:39.450 whatever it may be, that's all that's going to happen. 332 00:18:39.509 --> 00:18:42.009 It's just that the firearm is a very easy tool, 333 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:44.750 a very easy vehicle to help with that. But if 334 00:18:44.789 --> 00:18:47.640 you're set on killing yourself, you are going to do it. 335 00:18:47.690 --> 00:18:50.049 It doesn't matter what you have accessible to you. 336 00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:55.059 In suicide research, Anthony's argument is called substitution. This is 337 00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:57.599 the idea that if you remove one way for people 338 00:18:57.619 --> 00:18:58.359 to kill themselves. 339 00:18:58.609 --> 00:19:00.349 They'll just substitute it for another. 340 00:19:00.369 --> 00:19:05.109 Now, this theory of substitution has actually been studied internationally, 341 00:19:05.210 --> 00:19:09.579 looking at many ways that people suicide. Professor Helen Christensen 342 00:19:09.700 --> 00:19:12.220 is an expert in suicide prevention. She heads up the 343 00:19:12.259 --> 00:19:14.180 Black Dog Institute in Sydney, Australia. 344 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:16.720 So if you took away a particular way in which 345 00:19:16.779 --> 00:19:20.220 people die, do you get an outbreak and a greater 346 00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:22.920 number doing it in a different way? And there's been 347 00:19:22.960 --> 00:19:25.960 quite a bit of research, for example, putting barriers on bridges. 348 00:19:26.660 --> 00:19:29.799 Do people just move two kilometres further down the river 349 00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:33.369 and jump from the next bridge? And the answer is no. 350 00:19:33.380 --> 00:19:36.829 And there's no reason to think that guns or firearms 351 00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:37.710 would be any different? 352 00:19:38.309 --> 00:19:38.990 In my view, no. 353 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:43.240 Over and over, evidence suggests that if you eliminate a 354 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.410 popular way that people suicide, fewer people kill themselves. 355 00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:51.859 And this is known as means reduction. Here's an example. 356 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:55.819 In the 1980s, a common method of suicide in Sri 357 00:19:55.839 --> 00:19:59.720 Lanka was swallowing certain pesticides. And after the country banned them, 358 00:20:00.180 --> 00:20:05.029 the total suicide rate fell by 50%. Now, there was 359 00:20:05.069 --> 00:20:08.609 a minor increase in hangings, but this didn't come close 360 00:20:08.740 --> 00:20:12.930 to offsetting the total number of lives saved. This has 361 00:20:13.009 --> 00:20:17.269 also specifically been seen with guns. In Australia, after a 362 00:20:17.309 --> 00:20:21.690 gunman killed 35 people in Tasmania in 1996, heavy gun 363 00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:22.980 restrictions were implemented. 364 00:20:23.420 --> 00:20:24.400 And once the bans. 365 00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:27.819 Kicked in, there was a slight increase in hangings, but 366 00:20:28.460 --> 00:20:34.000 the total suicide rate dropped. For men, it was by 8%. 367 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.039 Every study I've seen and every academic I've spoken to 368 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:41.799 agreed that restricting access to guns would significantly reduce suicides. 369 00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:50.180 Every academic except Professor Gary Kleck because he said there's 370 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.559 no real difference between people trying to kill themselves with 371 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:55.680 a gun or with a

rope. 372 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.680 It's just tying a piece of rope around your neck. 373 00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:01.180 Are you saying that it is just as easy to 374 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:04.940 kill yourself... using a gun as it is to hang yourself? 375 00:21:05.849 --> 00:21:06.109 No. 376 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.690 What I said is that people who are that seriously 377 00:21:09.750 --> 00:21:14.170 motivated will take the somewhat longer period of time it 378 00:21:14.210 --> 00:21:17.890 takes to prepare a hanging suicide attempt than it does 379 00:21:17.950 --> 00:21:21.789 to shoot yourself. The difference is a matter of minutes. 380 00:21:22.210 --> 00:21:23.809 You can do it in under a minute with a 381 00:21:23.849 --> 00:21:26.390 gun and, well, maybe it'd take 10 minutes to do 382 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:30.210 it by hanging. And So the question is, are seriously 383 00:21:30.549 --> 00:21:33.970 intended suicide attempters willing to take 10 minutes to make 384 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:36.829 the attempt? Yeah, I'd say it's almost certain that they 385 00:21:36.910 --> 00:21:37.390 would be. 386 00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:42.819 But suicide researcher Helen Christensen says this idea that time 387 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:47.180 doesn't matter isn't true for the vast majority of people 388 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:48.079 who kill themselves. 389 00:21:48.579 --> 00:21:51.940 Time is your friend in suicide prevention. So the argument 390 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:55.559 is within 10 minutes, for example, of making the full 391 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:59.730 intention to take your own life, many people do attempt 392 00:21:59.789 --> 00:22:03.490 within that tiny window. The longer you allow the person 393 00:22:03.710 --> 00:22:07.559 with these thoughts to be delayed, then the more likely 394 00:22:07.700 --> 00:22:10.319 it is that they will in fact survive. 395 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:12.779 Conclusion. 396 00:22:13.660 --> 00:22:17.019 The current evidence suggests that for most people, thoughts of 397 00:22:17.099 --> 00:22:20.380 suicide come at a time of acute crisis. They're not 398 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.289 carefully planning their death, which is why removing deadly means 399 00:22:24.410 --> 00:22:28.289 from vulnerable people is such a powerful way to prevent suicide. 400 00:22:29.390 --> 00:22:30.529 You can think about it like this. 401 00:22:31.450 --> 00:22:35.250 When your friend or lover or child is feeling very low, 402 00:22:36.109 --> 00:22:37.990 you don't want them to have access to a gun. 403 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:42.230 We still need to look at murders and violent crimes. 404 00:22:42.859 --> 00:22:45.660 But before we do that, let's take a little break. 405 00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:48.700 It's getting pretty heavy here. Let's all take a big 406 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:55.740 breath while I tell you about some very cool octopuses. 407 00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:04.019 They're called the southern sand octopuses and they're found on 408 00:23:04.059 --> 00:23:07.380 the eastern coast of Australia. And it was recently discovered 409 00:23:07.819 --> 00:23:12.619 that these octopuses create houses for themselves under the bottom 410 00:23:12.740 --> 00:23:17.119 of the sea. Using their ingenuity and bodily fluid, they 411 00:23:17.309 --> 00:23:21.750 line the burrow of these little apartments they create for 412 00:23:21.769 --> 00:23:25.509 themselves with mucus so that it gives it more structure. 413 00:23:25.609 --> 00:23:30.839 And then they create little chimneys for ventilation. Isn't that amazing? 414 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:33.440 It's remarkable. 415 00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:38.069 Oh, and don't send me letters because the plural, the 416 00:23:38.089 --> 00:23:39.289 collective noun. 417 00:23:39.069 --> 00:23:42.009 Of octopus, is octopuses. 418 00:23:42.609 --> 00:23:46.609 Sometimes people say octopi because they think that octopus comes 419 00:23:46.670 --> 00:23:49.660 from Latin, in which case the plural would be I. 420 00:23:50.369 --> 00:23:54.650 But actually, octopus is borrowed from Greek, so you add 421 00:23:54.890 --> 00:23:57.490 ES if you want to make it a plural. So 422 00:23:57.529 --> 00:24:01.470 that would be octopuses. And you should use that word 423 00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:03.650 as often as possible because octopuses are cool. 424 00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:11.990 So, back to guns and on to the next argument. 425 00:24:14.259 --> 00:24:17.099 The gun lobby says that guns not only help people 426 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:20.920 to defend against crime, as we talked about... But they 427 00:24:21.089 --> 00:24:25.170 argue that if law-abiding citizens are armed, then criminals will 428 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:29.230 be deterred. That is, they reckon that the mere presence 429 00:24:29.309 --> 00:24:31.690 of a gun not only could be used to stop 430 00:24:31.750 --> 00:24:34.670 someone who's in the middle of committing a crime, but 431 00:24:34.690 --> 00:24:37.089 it could be used to stop them before the crime 432 00:24:37.190 --> 00:24:41.109 even happens. Burglaries, assaults, murders, all of it. 433 00:24:41.670 --> 00:24:45.299 There are AR-15s, shotguns and pistols all around you that 434 00:24:45.339 --> 00:24:47.420 deter crime and violence every day. 435 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.220 This is NRA News commentator Dom Rasso. 436 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:55.130 The presence of weapons alone can stop crime. And when 437 00:24:55.150 --> 00:24:57.609 you take them away, the bad guys have the upper hand. 438 00:24:58.029 --> 00:25:04.140 So, do guns reduce crime? Well, according to Fox News commentators, yes. 439 00:25:04.779 --> 00:25:08.529 And they invoke studies to make their claim. Here's commentator 440 00:25:08.809 --> 00:25:11.109 John Stossel speaking with Megyn Kelly. 441 00:25:11.230 --> 00:25:13.490 The jury is still out on the global warming theory. 442 00:25:13.529 --> 00:25:14.150 Whoops, sorry. 443 00:25:14.170 -->

00:25:18.420 It's just in my folder of outdated science that gets cited. 444 00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:21.869 Here it is, John Stossel and Megyn Kelly. 445 00:25:22.089 --> 00:25:26.109 The best example is concealed carry. In the states where 446 00:25:26.130 --> 00:25:30.950 they passed the laws, crime, gun crime, murder went down 447 00:25:31.220 --> 00:25:33.400 after states passed concealed carry laws. 448 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:33.720 Why? 449 00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:34.440 Why is that? 450 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.160 Because the bad guys start thinking, gee, if I rob 451 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:38.559 this guy, he might be packing. 452 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:44.339 OK, this claim has been firmly debunked by the scientific community. 453 00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.119 And to understand the whole story, we have to go back. 454 00:25:50.650 --> 00:25:51.680 Not that far back. 455 00:25:53.299 --> 00:25:54.200 Nice. 456 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.619 We are in the 1980s, when a bunch of US 457 00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:03.880 states unintentionally set up a nice experiment. These states passed 458 00:26:03.930 --> 00:26:07.230 laws making it easier for people to carry concealed weapons, 459 00:26:07.549 --> 00:26:12.269 so-called right-to-carry laws. And by doing that, it allowed scientists 460 00:26:12.349 --> 00:26:15.859 to measure the crime rate before and after the laws 461 00:26:15.890 --> 00:26:20.190 were passed to answer the question... Do legal guns on 462 00:26:20.230 --> 00:26:26.250 the street really mean less crime? Economist John Lott, who 463 00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:28.599 at the time worked for the University of Chicago, was 464 00:26:28.690 --> 00:26:31.200 one of the first academics to publish on the case. 465 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:35.460 Using some statistical models, he reported a significant drop in 466 00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.440 violent crimes in states that had passed the gun laws. 467 00:26:39.259 --> 00:26:42.329 This work was published in 1997 and John went on 468 00:26:42.380 --> 00:26:47.789 to write a very cryptically titled book called More Guns, 469 00:26:48.410 --> 00:26:52.349 Less Crime. These days, John is no longer aligned to 470 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:56.970 a university and is instead a Fox News columnist. Meanwhile, 471 00:26:57.329 --> 00:27:00.950 a bunch of other scientists still working for universities have 472 00:27:00.970 --> 00:27:04.119 looked into John's work and found serious. 473 00:27:03.819 --> 00:27:08.680 Flaws within it. When one academic tried to replicate the findings... 474 00:27:08.730 --> 00:27:09.150 He couldn't. 475 00:27:09.809 --> 00:27:13.509 And this led an expert committee of some 20 scientists 476 00:27:13.589 --> 00:27:17.069 to reanalyse the data. And while John still maintains the 477 00:27:17.130 --> 00:27:22.109 accuracy of his findings, this committee found, quote, no credible 478 00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:25.769 evidence that the passage of right to carry laws decreases 479 00:27:26.670 --> 00:27:32.609 or increases violent crime, end quote. OK, so people carrying 480 00:27:32.630 --> 00:27:36.430 their guns around doesn't affect the crime rate. But what 481 00:27:36.470 --> 00:27:39.789 happens when you take into account the guns in people's homes? 482 00:27:40.250 --> 00:27:43.529 Do the number of guns in a state affect the 483 00:27:43.710 --> 00:27:46.829 overall crime rate? No. 484 00:27:47.769 --> 00:27:48.930 Here's David Hemenway. 485 00:27:49.430 --> 00:27:52.259 Guns don't cause violent crime. Guns also don't seem to 486 00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:55.880 protect against violent crime. Guns don't reduce violent crime. Whether 487 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:57.720 it is guns or not, you can have violent crime. 488 00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:00.119 There are US states with lots of guns that have 489 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.039 a low crime rate, like Montana. And there are US 490 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.849 states with lots of guns... with a high crime rate, 491 00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:09.450 like Alaska. Equally, around the world, while the US has 492 00:28:09.509 --> 00:28:13.359 a bucketload more guns than any other high-income country, the 493 00:28:13.410 --> 00:28:17.380 crime rate over here is just average. And for more 494 00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:19.660 evidence that the number of guns and the crime rate 495 00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:22.480 are unrelated, we need to go back. 496 00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:23.140 No! 497 00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:28.069 From the mid-1990s, crime rates plummeted around the developed world. 498 00:28:34.529 --> 00:28:38.789 Burglaries, thefts, assaults, all dropped. And this trend lasted about 499 00:28:38.829 --> 00:28:42.480 a decade. And it was so mysterious that academics have 500 00:28:42.579 --> 00:28:46.740 spent the last two decades trying to figure out what happened. 501 00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:50.180 With no concrete answers on the table, three years ago, 502 00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:53.680 the National Academy of Sciences put together a crack team 503 00:28:53.759 --> 00:28:58.740 of scientists, which included David, to finally uncover why the 504 00:28:58.779 --> 00:28:59.579 crime rate fell. 505 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.119 After three years of study, I can confidently say that 506 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.359 two dozen of us, mostly criminologists, really don't have any 507 00:29:09.460 --> 00:29:09.960 good idea. 508 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:14.500 They looked at data on all the obvious stuff. The economy, unemployment, 509 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.039 social trends like immigration. but also other things. 510 00:29:18.220 --> 00:29:23.380 Things like better policing and the notion of more fewer 511 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:27.549 people in prison and the idea about less lead in 512 00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:32.589 the water, in the air and abortion. 513 00:29:32.849 --> 00:29:37.730 And of course, guns. But nothing could explain what happened. Now, 514 00:29:37.849 --> 00:29:40.660

it's true that as the crime rate increased, America was 515 00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:43.559 falling in the 1990s, the number of guns in the 516 00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:47.240 country was going up. And the NRA likes to take 517 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:51.259 this as proof that more guns means less crime. But 518 00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:53.970 according to David Hemenway and the team... If you keep 519 00:29:54.150 --> 00:29:58.180 watching the crime statistics after that initial drop in the mid-90s, 520 00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:03.460 you'll see that that relationship between guns and crime changes. 521 00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:04.640 Which is why. 522 00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:09.670 Zero of our group thought that the number of guns 523 00:30:09.829 --> 00:30:14.369 had anything to do with the reduction in crime and homicide. 524 00:30:14.789 --> 00:30:17.630 So even though the number of guns in America continues 525 00:30:17.670 --> 00:30:20.259 to slowly rise, the crime rate has bobbed up and 526 00:30:20.299 --> 00:30:24.670 down throughout the noughties and even today. The naughties, as 527 00:30:24.710 --> 00:30:27.569 in the 2000s. I didn't even mean it like a pun. 528 00:30:27.789 --> 00:30:30.910 Like, they're naughty. They're doing crime. It's just what you 529 00:30:30.930 --> 00:30:34.490 call the 2000s. There's no other better. The 2000s sounds weird. 530 00:30:34.869 --> 00:30:39.079 It does. It sounds weird. What else? The zeros? The 531 00:30:39.180 --> 00:30:41.660 double zeros? The oh-ohs? 532 00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:42.140 No. 533 00:30:42.619 --> 00:30:42.859 No. 534 00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:47.000 The oohs? The oohs. The turn of the century. 535 00:30:47.660 --> 00:30:47.960 No. 536 00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:49.980 It's called the naughties. The point is. 537 00:30:50.750 --> 00:30:53.250 The crime rate is still going up and down. The 538 00:30:53.289 --> 00:30:56.660 number of guns in America are rising. There is no connection. 539 00:30:58.660 --> 00:30:59.079 Conclusion. 540 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.339 Guns do not affect the crime rate. They don't make 541 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:07.220 it go up or down in any consistent way. Well, 542 00:31:07.579 --> 00:31:11.799 there is one exception. Guns do not have an impact 543 00:31:11.900 --> 00:31:13.869 on the overall violent crime rate. 544 00:31:14.180 --> 00:31:15.190 They don't affect the number. 545 00:31:15.049 --> 00:31:17.190 Of assaults or rapes or burglaries. 546 00:31:18.339 --> 00:31:23.759 But they do have an effect on one particular violent crime. Homicide. 547 00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:25.160 Here's David. 548 00:31:25.299 --> 00:31:29.680 What guns do is they make hostile interactions, robberies, assaults 549 00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:30.700 much more deadly. 550 00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:33.099 What he means is that if you put a gun 551 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:35.799 in the middle of an altercation, it's more likely that 552 00:31:35.880 --> 00:31:39.799 someone will die. In the US, 16,000 people are killed 553 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:42.180 in a homicide each year, and the majority, 11,000, are 554 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.940 killed with guns. And when we look at the US, 555 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.140 states with more guns tend to have more homicides and 556 00:31:49.180 --> 00:31:50.880 more firearm-related homicides. 557 00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:52.920 But there are exceptions. 558 00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:56.319 So you can find states like Idaho, for example, with 559 00:31:56.420 --> 00:31:57.869 lots of guns but not. 560 00:31:57.740 --> 00:31:59.089 A lot of murders per capita. 561 00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:02.829 But there is one subset of the homicide rate where 562 00:32:02.849 --> 00:32:07.650 the correlation between guns and death is rock solid. And 563 00:32:07.690 --> 00:32:13.349 that's the female homicide rate. A paper published this year 564 00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:18.839 tracked firearm ownership and homicides across 50 states over 33 years, 565 00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:22.880 and it found that it was unambiguous. The more guns 566 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:25.289 in a state, the more likely it is that a 567 00:32:25.349 --> 00:32:28.609 woman will be murdered. If the gun ownership in a 568 00:32:28.670 --> 00:32:33.789 state goes up by 10 percentage points, the female firearm-related 569 00:32:33.869 --> 00:32:38.589 murder rate goes up by 10%. Now, we're not exactly 570 00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:42.190 sure why the link between statewide gun ownership and murder 571 00:32:42.210 --> 00:32:45.650 is stronger for women than men. But women are more 572 00:32:45.690 --> 00:32:48.269 likely to be killed by someone they know, while men 573 00:32:48.430 --> 00:32:51.589 are killed in greater numbers and more often by a stranger. 574 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:55.339 And one idea is that because men are often killed 575 00:32:55.380 --> 00:32:58.660 by strangers, their murders depend on a lot of other factors, 576 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:02.000 like the overall level of violence in a state, while 577 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:07.349 violence against women depends much less on these factors. That is, 578 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:11.430 women are being abused everywhere, but the likelihood that one 579 00:33:11.450 --> 00:33:16.730 will die depends on who has access to guns. Conclusion. 580 00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:21.079 Guns don't affect the crime rate, but guns do make 581 00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:22.240 crimes more deadly. 582 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.000 Chuck a gun in the middle of an assault and 583 00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:26.940 it's more likely that someone will die. 584 00:33:29.420 --> 00:33:33.039 So, when it comes to science versus guns, do the 585 00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:39.900 claims stack up? Bullet point number one, there are 2.5 586 00:33:39.900 --> 00:33:42.619 million defensive gun uses in America each year. 587 00:33:43.180 --> 00:33:44.160 The science says no. 588 00:33:46.509 --> 00:33:49.150 According to the research,

the actual number is around 100,000 589 00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:53.430 and that includes defending property, you know, stuff in your house. 590 00:33:54.289 --> 00:33:59.039 Next bullet point, guns reduce crime. The science says no. 591 00:34:02.220 --> 00:34:04.180 Guns do not affect the crime rate. 592 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.710 They don't make it go up. and they don't make 593 00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:07.390 it go down. 594 00:34:08.269 --> 00:34:13.179 But they do make altercations more deadly, which is why 595 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:18.079 more guns, on average, means more murders. So if the 596 00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:21.699 data are pretty clear, why is there a big debate? 597 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.889 Why all the fuss around guns? According to David Hemenway, 598 00:34:26.909 --> 00:34:29.710 this is more about human nature than science. 599 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:32.710 Because the thing is, for people who have a gun. 600 00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.260 there is a very small chance that something will ever 601 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:36.840 go wrong. 602 00:34:37.300 --> 00:34:41.219 Serious injuries are fairly rare. So people will say, oh, 603 00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:42.659 I had a gun in my house when I was 604 00:34:42.679 --> 00:34:47.360 growing up and nobody ever died. Great. But because the 605 00:34:47.380 --> 00:34:49.980 gun was in your house, there was three times the 606 00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:53.460 likelihood that somebody would die. But they think their evidence 607 00:34:53.519 --> 00:34:58.030 from their own experience is, boy, things are fine. 608 00:34:58.349 --> 00:35:01.929 And for gun owner Anthony Calandro, everything has been fine 609 00:35:01.969 --> 00:35:05.099 so far. So he thinks nothing needs to change. 610 00:35:05.800 --> 00:35:06.880 And why wouldn't. 611 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:11.920 You personally want to give some guns up to make 612 00:35:11.980 --> 00:35:14.280 America safer, if that's what the studies showed? 613 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.820 Because I am safe and my guns are not hurting anybody. 614 00:35:18.199 --> 00:35:20.130 Last time I checked, none of my guns ever left 615 00:35:20.170 --> 00:35:21.869 the safe and went out and committed crimes in the 616 00:35:21.889 --> 00:35:23.289 middle of the night while I was sleeping. 617 00:35:23.989 --> 00:35:27.730 If this perfect study came up and just found that 618 00:35:28.550 --> 00:35:31.429 that if you removed the guns in America, you would 619 00:35:31.469 --> 00:35:32.949 have a homicide rate that dropped. 620 00:35:33.289 --> 00:35:36.070 The perfect study. Would you want action to happen? 621 00:35:37.289 --> 00:35:39.849 Probably not. Probably not, because we all want to blame 622 00:35:39.889 --> 00:35:43.860 everybody else and not ourselves. It's okay to take his 623 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:46.199 guns away, but not my guns. Come on, it's just 624 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:47.519 like when you were a kid, you had a toy 625 00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:49.340 you didn't play with, and when your mom wanted to 626 00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:51.460 give it away, all of a sudden you wanted it again, right? 627 00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:54.179 I know that I'm safe, and I know I'm diligent 628 00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:55.989 with my guns, so nobody's taking my guns. 629 00:35:56.639 --> 00:35:59.679 And the thing is, while Anthony is trained and safe 630 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.420 with his guns, and maybe you'd rather be in a 631 00:36:02.440 --> 00:36:05.639 dark alleyway with him than without him, the science tells 632 00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:08.300 us that the more people who think like Anthony, the 633 00:36:08.340 --> 00:36:12.610 more guns there are around. Ultimately, the more people die. 634 00:36:16.469 --> 00:36:17.929 That's Science vs Guns. 635 00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:21.190 Stay tuned after the break for a sneak peek at 636 00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:25.289 next week's show. This episode has been produced by Caitlin Kenney, 637 00:36:25.409 --> 00:36:26.989 Heather Rogers and Caitlin Sorey. 638 00:36:27.409 --> 00:36:30.030 Edited by Annie Rose Strasser and Alex Bloomberg. 639 00:36:30.619 --> 00:36:34.440 Production assistance by Austin Mitchell and fact-checking by Michelle Harris. 640 00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:39.110 Special thanks to Struthi Pinamaneni, Diane Wu and Stevie Lane. 641 00:36:39.699 --> 00:36:43.389 Sound design and music production by Martin Peralta and Matthew Boll. 642 00:36:43.750 --> 00:36:45.170 Music written by Bobby Lord. 643 00:36:57.489 --> 00:37:00.550 Next time on Science Versus, it's part two of our 644 00:37:00.630 --> 00:37:05.210 look at guns in America. We're doing science versus gun control. 645 00:37:05.670 --> 00:37:09.829 What saves lives and what doesn't? You might be surprised. 646 00:37:10.349 --> 00:37:14.289 And the real irony is that handgun crime doubled in Britain. 647 00:37:14.849 --> 00:37:20.829 Plus, we'll tell you what this sound is. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. 648 00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:22.489 Back to you next time.