Full Transcript for Financial Planning When Mental Illness Strikes: Why ABLE Accounts Matter (Ep. 144)

some changes with Dr. 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:20.319 Leitman. 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:28.240 You know, we had been spreading out the visits because you know, we're on, you know, we're in Washington State and he's in New York. 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:33.120 And in the beginning, in the first few years, he saw Nick every other week. 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:39.680 And we've been spreading it out and spreading it out because Nick's um, it's funny because it comes down to finances. 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.879 Nick's uh uh you know, in the beginning Dr. 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:50.639 Leitman could take uh the SSI, the Medicare, but he can't do that anymore, so now it's all out of pocket. 00:05:50.959 --> 00:06:05.199 So um I so then you know we're on a pretty tight schedule, uh pretty tight um budget with Nick, where you know, adding hundreds of dollars a month makes a difference. 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:17.519 And um, and so we've been spreading out the visits because Nick's been doing so well, there hasn't been any kind of a terrible setback or or decompensation. 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:19.920 But Rob, Dr. 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:27.839 Lehman and I had a talk just the recently, and both of us agree that it may not be bad, but it's not good. 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:33.839 And um, and slowly, slowly, slowly I see Nick sort of slipping. 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.360 And I realize he needs to see Dr. 00:06:37.519 --> 00:06:40.240 Lehman much more often than he is. 00:06:40.480 --> 00:07:04.560 So we've worked out a way to make the finances work, and he's gonna start seeing him every other week now, and I'm hoping for improvements, but I think that we've hit a point where uh, again, finances are the issue, but also where I think a lot of people can get to where it's not bad, it's not a disaster, but it's not improving anymore. 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:11.040 And um and you want to keep that train moving, however, slowly. 00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:15.439 And so that's what we're trying to shake. 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:20.399 Hit the motor a little bit with a hammer and see if we can get it rolling again. 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:30.720 Because you know, it's kind of easy as a mom to go, well, nothing's wrong, you know, he's not hurting himself or others, and nothing's wrong, and everything's just sort of moving along. 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:46.160 But again, I feel this basic fundamental moral obligation to give him and facilitate him having the best life possible, and so it's easy to drop off on that, anyway. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:47.279 I hear that. 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.279 I I love that keep the train moving, however, slowly it's what we all want. 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:52.800 So so I hear that. 00:07:52.879 --> 00:08:00.879 And and Mindy, I know from last week that Jim's doing great, and I just hope he's continuing to do great, but you went through a period of that train not moving too fast either. 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:11.439 So the shoots and ladders is alive and well in this program, and so um Jim has been down, and right now he's doing the best he's ever done. 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.319 And I thank Dr. 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:13.839 Leitman for that. 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:18.800 And also the wonderful programs we have here in Minnesota. 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.720 And Jim has the benefit of every single one of them, which everybody doesn't. 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:30.560 We have great programs and long waiting lists, but um he's in the best housing possible. 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:32.960 He's going to work part-time. 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:41.360 He works at NAMI, Minnesota, so they're very understanding if he doesn't come in for a couple of days or doesn't stay very long. 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.240 Um, he goes to the gym every day. 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:51.200 Um, that's due to having had what we call an arms worker, somebody who helps him get out into the community. 00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:52.720 And now he goes by himself. 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:56.399 He has a regiment that he works at for like an hour. 00:08:56.799 --> 00:09:01.039 And he comes over here and is cheerful and happy. 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:05.600 He dried the dishes tonight when he was here for supper and put them all away. 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:07.919 And um he's just okay. 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:09.200 I just want to stop there. 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:16.159 People who haven't been through what families like ours have gone through do not know what a miracle that is. 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:22.960 You know, the we what we call the miracle of the ordinary, that, you know, that he's going to the gym, amazing. 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:28.480 I remember in when my son was in a period when he was working uh as a waiter. 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:33.679 And even before that, when he was going to school, he was able to have something to talk about. 00:09:33.759 --> 00:09:35.120 When people say, What are you doing? 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:36.240 He had something. 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:37.919 So that's that's amazing. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:45.200 That's I was so jealous of you and um and your son when we first started. 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:48.080 And now I'm sure you feel the same way about me. 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:55.039 So how the money I also know, and we all know when you're up at the top, you know, anything can happen. 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:59.440 So we don't, we're not complacent, but we're grateful when we're doing well. 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:09.200 But you asked us to talk about finances, and so I just want to say um Jim actually had the representative payee from hell. 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:12.159 He had a good company to begin with, but they were sold. 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:19.919 And then he got one that was stingy with his money, and we finally just had to sever the tie, get rid of the pay. 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:30.399 And then it took us a year or more to get Jim's money right out of that person's hands and

then the federal government's hands, because it first had to go there. 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:36.799 So now he, with his ABLE account that we're going to learn more about tonight, manages his own finances. 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:38.480 He's able to do it. 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:42.799 Um, and I just asked him tonight, what do you like best about the ABLE program? 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:48.960 He likes it, the fact that he can save money, that he can do it himself. 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:55.440 So um that is also part of his success, success story, the ABLE account that he's had. 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.720 We're trying to remember, I think, for two or three years. 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:06.639 So I hope everybody tonight, if you don't have one or your family member doesn't have one, you'll listen carefully to our guest. 00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.759 And let's bring on our guest, Alan Geezey. 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:19.679 So I'm not going to read your whole bio because we're just going to ask you about it, but I have mentioned you're the author of When Mental Illness Strikes, Crisis Intervention for the Financial Plan. 00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:24.320 And which, if you're watching on YouTube, you can see that Mindy's holding it up. 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.399 And if you're not, take my word for it. 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.679 It's available on Amazon wherever you get your books. 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:36.080 But um, Alan, I I I want to first start by asking you your story. 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:39.840 I understand you have a personal stake in why you wrote this book. 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:41.200 Would you share that with us? 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:42.080 Absolutely. 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:48.799 And it struck me as I listened to the three of you how uh similar along the path we all are. 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:54.799 Uh I I know what that's like being down at the second rung of the ladder after having been at the top. 00:11:54.960 --> 00:12:01.840 And um, you know, NAMI has been, y'all mentioned NAMI and has been such an instrumental part of our lives. 00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:10.480 And and um, you know, we none of us expected this when we had kids, and suddenly you're thrown into it. 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:35.679 And uh right, it's probably you know one of the toughest times of your life when you know work is is at its peak, and and you're you know, in my case, my son uh was an outstanding student, an outstanding athlete, um, and started getting a little more reserved and shy uh to the point where I would explain to people, yeah, he's kind of painfully shy. 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:43.919 And then um had his first psychotic break at 17, uh, and we were just floored. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:59.759 We had no idea what was going on, uh, and grasped at every straw we could to try and analyze and figure it out and get as much help as we could, and you know, bumped into a bunch of walls and you know, that didn't work. 00:12:59.840 --> 00:13:00.960 Let's try something else. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:10.000 And uh it really took a few years to get to that point where we're finally on a path that we felt was the right path. 00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:21.600 Meanwhile, there were a number of uh additional psychotic breaks along the way, and uh, you know, you read in retrospect that each one of those is not a good thing for the long-term outlook. 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:26.080 And so that uh that that was those were some really tough years. 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:36.559 I remember going successive nights without sleep, and just you know, the toll it takes on the parents, the family, just it's it's a really rough disease. 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:37.519 Yeah. 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.080 How is your son doing these days? 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:41.600 He's doing really well. 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:43.919 He uh he's on full disability. 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.080 Um, he lives with us. 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:55.679 Uh we have um it's interesting, we were just up in um Pennsylvania looking at a facility that we're considering uh for him. 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.480 Uh but it's hard because he's doing so well with us now. 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:08.159 Yeah, we but we really want him to learn more of the life skills that he needs to be able to stand on his own two feet. 00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:15.200 And um we were in that same situation with our son, and we've discussed that on various podcasts. 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:20.000 But Jim's only been in this housing that I mentioned for a year and a half. 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:22.480 So I know exactly how you feel. 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:30.960 You feel like you're gonna ruin everything, but you also know if you abruptly die, that's gonna ruin everything for him. 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.960 So um, you have to do something. 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.240 And I'll just tell you, it took, it was a Rocky Road when we started. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:48.639 And Jim, after I think only two weeks there, he was hospitalized because he wasn't doing well and they were not socializing with him, um, just taking his no, I'm good for uh real. 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:50.639 So uh good luck with that. 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.000 But I can say after a year and a half, it's working well. 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:55.120 That's good to hear. 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:55.919 That's good to hear. 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:57.440 Maybe we'll talk offline a little bit more. 00:14:57.679 --> 00:14:59.279 Yeah, I'm happy to talk anytime. 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:00.720 That's one of my favorite things. 00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:05.360 I'm retired, unlike these other two mothers that still have to work. 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:07.759 Someone can work in my case. 00:15:08.080 --> 00:15:08.960 Oh, yeah, and have to. 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.039 Someone from Delaware tomorrow. 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:12.080 So yeah. 00:15:12.320 --> 00:15:17.279 So, Alan, um we feel you, as I think you you get.

00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:31.120 Uh, and we are, as we've mentioned before on the podcast, two things before we get to Able Accounts, because you are also obviously you're the founder of North Star Financial Planners, so you know a lot more about finance than I certainly ever did. 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:33.440 So that you know, you are the expert in there. 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:38.159 And, you know, you pride yourself on helping clients achieve what's most important to them. 00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:47.679 And obviously, for families with serious mental illnesses, the welfare of our children, especially after while we're here and also after we're gone, is very important. 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:58.559 I do want to mention um uh for listeners who are like, 144 episodes, how do I even begin to, you know? 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:04.159 So you can search on our episodes by guest. 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:12.240 Like if you go to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcast, and you go to our uh to our podcast and you put in Dr. 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.759 Laitman, for instance, because we talk about him a lot, the episodes with him as a guest will come in. 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:25.039 But a lot of families ask me about these podcasts, and this will be on the list of legal and financial help. 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:40.480 And so uh you can't search by tag, you cannot search by tag, but on my website, randyk.com, just look under podcasts and schizophrenia three moms and the trenches, it's another place the videos of our podcasts live. 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:46.639 And I did curate a playlist of episodes that are legal and financial help. 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:51.679 So you can go there and it'll list those episodes, and I'll do it for other tags as we're going. 00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:04.960 Okay, so oh and the other thing I wanted to mention, and we've we're painfully aware that we are three now, four on this episode, relatively well-to-do families. 00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:11.279 I mean, not rich, I'm totally middle class all the way, but I, you know, been able to find the help for my son. 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:17.519 Like we're aware that there are many people who, if you said we don't take Medicare, couldn't even find it in the budget. 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:24.000 So we know that we're lucky in that way, but also that part of that is is planning. 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:36.559 And so, Alan, let's, you know, we we're gonna ask you later more tidbits, but let's start with able accounts because I gotta tell you, I was my son's representative payee for Social Security for a long time. 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:47.759 And I people like open an Able account so that he can save for a car, or he can save for, you know, med uh he needs his teeth pulled and fixed. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.680 And I'm like, how do I put the money aside for that without him losing his benefits? 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.839 And people are like, open an Able account. 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:55.359 So I was going to do that. 00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:59.680 And there was such a rigmarole and a press. 00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:04.000 I live in Connecticut, and maybe it's different state to state, so that's one question. 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:07.839 And then I was told you can only use it for medical stuff, so don't bother. 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:09.359 So I I'm totally confused. 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:10.960 I never did open one. 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:12.319 So let's start with that. 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:16.480 Talk to us about Able accounts and you know, what are they? 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:18.720 What do you what would you like us to know? 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:25.119 You know, I I I think first I'd like you to know that it's not just about the finances. 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:34.240 I think a lot of it is about the gain in independence that an able account uh gives the beneficiary. 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:39.839 Uh you know, I I think it's it's kind of opens up a whole new world uh for them. 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:48.960 What is it exactly for someone who's like doling out the social security disability to their loved one and saying you can't you can't have much in your bank account? 00:18:49.119 --> 00:18:50.400 Like, what is an able account? 00:18:50.640 --> 00:19:06.000 Explain like I'm a fourth grader because I feel like one of the things that an able account allows you to save money uh in a vehicle which doesn't penalize you from receiving your SSI or Medicaid uh benefits. 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.440 SSI and Medicaid have what's called a resource limit, which is just$2,000. 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:12.160 That's it. 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:24.960 Once you've gone above that$2,000 in resources, cash, uh savings, whatever, um you're you are at risk of losing your SSI and your Medicaid. 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:37.920 So there was no incentive or no way to save prior to 2014 when Able accounts came out that wouldn't basically jeopardize your government benefits. 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:46.960 Um and so, you know, parents were doing all kinds of crafty things as they still do, or you'll you know, save in mom and dad's name. 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:55.200 But you know, in in that way, it's not really benefiting long-term uh, you know, the the the person with the disability. 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:57.519 They aren't feeling that independence yet. 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.240 So an ABLE account, uh, as I said, they came out in 2014. 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:06.799 That's when Congress passed the it's called Achieving a Better Life Experience Act. 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:14.880 And they already had in existence at the time these you've probably heard of these 529 uh college savings plans. 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:24.559 So uh they basically built an ABLE account on top of these 529 college savings plans, use using that as the chassis. 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:32.799 Because that chassis allows uh uh once you put the money

in there, it allows tax-deferred growth. 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:42.960 And then as long as the reasons you're taking the money out are for qualified reasons, uh it comes out tax-free. 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:48.079 So you're putting money in there, it grows tax-free, and then you you you take it out tax-free. 00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:52.079 So it's it's a huge tax break from that perspective. 00:20:52.799 --> 00:21:04.240 Uh so bottom line is an ABLE account is now giving somebody with a disability who's on SSI and or Medicaid the ability to save money and not jeopardize that. 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:05.839 Now there's limits. 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:14.400 So they might seem high at first, but you can only put up to a hundred thousand dollars into an ABLE account. 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:21.279 Even though theoretically the maximum you can put in there is the same as these$529 savings plans. 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:29.920 It the reality is you'll you'll end up suspending your SSI benefits if it gets above a hundred thousand. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:40.319 So if you get to$101,000, probably should go buy something, you know, for a thousand dollars to get it back down because uh your your SSI benefits gonna get suspended. 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:51.119 So the money you're saving is coming from their social security benefits, and you're setting it aside from can can you put in other money, like a gift, like a birthday gift? 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:52.079 It can be anything. 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:54.319 Mom can put the money in there. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:56.079 Anybody can put the money in there. 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.039 You can put up to$19,000. 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.880 year into enable account from all sources. 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.119 That's the maximum enable account will accept is$19,000. 00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:08.000 Okay. 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:09.680 So with a caveat. 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:12.799 The caveat is the able to work program. 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:28.880 So if a recipient is working, has the ability to work, they can add on top of that$19,000 whatever the federal uh guideline is for poverty levels, which is somewhere around$15,000,$16,000. 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:30.640 But what goes into opening one? 00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:39.039 Because the the obstacles I have, I had to get a notary public and I had to get my son to sign off on some things and it just became like people said don't bother. 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:44.880 And is it is it the same from state to state or does it differ state to state? 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:49.759 I have not heard of anybody having any trouble opening one to be honest with you. 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:51.599 It was it's pretty easy. 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:57.039 You go online uh if you have a state income tax you probably want to be using your state's plan. 00:22:57.119 --> 00:22:59.920 There's only like four states I think currently that don't have them. 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.559 I think

it's Wisconsin, the Dakotas and I think it's Idaho is the other one. 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:05.920 I hope I'm not wrong. 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:09.599 But uh every other state has their own ABLE plan. 00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:15.920 And you just go online to their website and fill out the application. 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:24.079 You have to either be on SSI uh already or check the box saying I would qualify for SSI. 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:32.480 I've got all of the things I I would qualify as fully disabled and you're basically attesting that you're fully disabled. 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:55.680 I will say uh Randy you must I don't Connecticut must have some odd rules um Jim's Jim and I just sat down in front of the computer and did it and I think we it took us you know and I'm not the most technologically advanced person and I think it took us you know an hour or less and we just did it all and Jim's plan is in Indiana. 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:03.200 He that's where you go to the Minnesota ABLE account website and it directs us to Indiana. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:06.880 And we've had wonderful relationships there. 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:55.680 Jim just Jim just had uh three fraud withdrawals from his ABLE account last week and he called Indiana the person that answered was very helpful took all three of those things off of his account reimbursed him for them and was going to look into it you know just like a person's uh credit card company might do if you get a fraudulent uh uh listing on your account and then they also issued him a new card and so it just came yesterday and now he's having trouble signing in with that that card so he's gonna call them tomorrow and expect to get good help again and they know they're dealing with somebody like Jim who has schizoaffective disorder. 00:24:55.920 --> 00:25:07.039 So they are kind people they make it crystal clear to Jim what he needs to do what they're going to do and he feels heard and respected. 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:11.279 Wow I I I think I have to move to Indiana or Minnesota. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.400 I don't know why I had all right here's a question. 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.720 You don't have to move you can just you you can move your ABLE account. 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:56.319 So in Connecticut I could open an ABLE account in Indiana if I wanted yeah go do that go to Indiana I highly recommend Indiana financial conservator so I can't do that but uh and of course my son doesn't think he has a disability and one of the stumbling blocks for me might have been having to have his permission um and so as a kind of conservator open it on behalf of their conservatia whatever it is or do they you know this or maybe someone didn't understand it and then I would say don't open one I mean you may you make it sound so easy and I don't know why it would be so difficult. 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:05.920 It must be your state but um Jim was anxious to do it he couldn't wait to do it because as Alan started

out saying it's not just about the money. 00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.519 Jim doesn't really usually have that much money in his account but it's his sense of control. 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:31.519 And if he finds himself with his bank account having$2,01 to his ABL account and then when he needs more money he takes it out of his ABL account and puts it in his you know so or he can spend it directly from the Able account. 00:26:31.599 --> 00:26:52.319 But it just it gives him the sense of autonomy that all of us have of course well now is there a limit this is another myth perhaps is there a limit on what the money can be spent on like if somebody like Mimi's son wanted to save for a car could he open an Able account and save some of his money and buy a used car? 00:26:52.640 --> 00:27:12.240 Or is there a limit to what the money is spent for if the car is a necessity he needs it to go to work uh needs it for you know certainly for any any type of employment uh needs it to get around and meet his basic needs then that would qualify as a disability expense. 00:27:13.279 --> 00:28:59.519 Yeah so the list is pretty um inclusive I think you could say uh it covers housing education transportation uh there's your car uh employment training uh healthcare assistive technology so if you know they need like you know some adaptive technology of some sort uh personal uh support services that they might need uh legal fees are included as qualified disability expenses uh financial management would be included uh any basic living expenses is on that list and uh they even put in their funeral and burial expenses that's quite maybe it's easier to say what does it not cover you'd have a hard time wow yeah so I could conceivably as you heard earlier on the podcast my son is currently homeless and uh not and an addict at the moment so well he will always be an addict I suppose but an addict a practicing addict as you will and so whereas six years ago he was thinking about his future and how can I afford to go back to college and can I get a used car like all of that when he is stable if those dreams come back other than asking his parents for money there's no no place to get it so I could conceivably now with the I guess I'd have to ask his conservator now I we could open an able account for him and I could put money in it myself every year so that if he gets stable again but he would have access to that money right now. 00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:01.680 I wouldn't put money in it if he's not stable. 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:22.480 If you would if there's any chance he would use it for drugs that's not the time but I think to have him have that dream would be something really good to have him know always that that's there and you could do that with him and his conservator if he were sober. 00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:30.559 So it takes away that obstacle of oh my God you have two thousand and two dollars in your bank account you might lose your social security that's what this does. 00:29:31.200 --> 00:30:07.839 That's yeah that's pretty much it that's that's how you would say that Mimi does obvious financial benefit questions or comments and you're muted though okay there we go you know we've done such a strange thing and I would be interested in Alan's opinion of this but you know Nick is perfectly content living the way that he's living right now and you know he he knows he has some money for shopping and he has an EBT card because he's on SSI. 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:11.680 He knows he has an option to work but we can't get him to do it. 00:30:11.759 --> 00:30:14.480 And basically I just handle everything. 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:32.960 He doesn't even ever really have money and um you know it sort of evolved because it keeps him out of trouble and he can't buy drugs and he can't you know get in trouble doing things and I'm sort of of the if it ain't broke don't fix it group. 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:57.200 Now I've also gotten an earful from some of these advocates who have said you know well what's going to happen when you die what's gonna happen when you die and my attitude has always been and again I'm like Randy and I kind of assume Mindy too and that we're sort of like strongly middle class where I don't have nothing but we're not millionaires you know we just have a certain amount of assets and a home and everything. 00:30:57.279 --> 00:31:04.960 And I just I've set it up so that when we're gone everything goes to my daughters and they're gonna take care of Nick. 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:18.559 Now I know that doesn't work for you two for your specific reasons but my daughters are kind of on board and the less people in the government and the less experts I have telling me what to do generally the happier I am. 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:20.559 So that's how I've kind of done it. 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.880 And I don't know if I'm doing a really stupid thing but so far I haven't changed it. 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:27.519 Does that sound crazy to you Alan? 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:53.359 Yeah it does to me too yeah it's we um you need to sit down with somebody who's really well versed in special needs planning and talk about third party special needs trusts we have a we have a special needs trust for him we did make that a long time ago is it a is it funded with other people's money or with his money? 00:31:53.759 --> 00:31:57.119 Well it's basically got some money in it of our money. 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:34.799 Okay so it's so it's a third party trust yeah I guess so well anyway I don't want to take up our our listeners' time so with my personal things well there's a lot of overlap with with special needs trusts and able accounts and many people ask me well I mean do I even need a trust anymore and the answer is absolutely you still need the trust um because when we die they can if he inherits money they can ask for his social security back correct um it's their medic it's the Medicaid benefits that they paid that

that they would get back and depends on where it is. 00:32:35.039 --> 00:33:40.000 Now initially when able accounts came out uh they all had Medicaid payback provisions so if you died you're basically whatever the balance is you're just gonna lose it because the state's gonna make the case uh but then we started seeing a lot of pushback happening around 2018 2019 and one by one states started redrafting that so some states now uh it's there's there's no Medicaid payback other states it depends uh if there's a Medicaid payback or not uh provision going on in there and some states it's like there's still a Medicaid payback so it's kind of all over the map no pun intended so who does one talk to somebody like you a financial planner yes absolutely somebody who has like a special needs planning designation uh an attorney would be very good who typically elder law attorneys are pretty good at this stuff they understand Medicaid rules better than most attorneys and and Social Security uh and certainly they're the ones that would end up writing the you know doing the trust work. 00:33:40.240 --> 00:34:18.639 But um uh I I lost my train of thought I think we were talking about going uh you know what the Medicaid payback provisions would be like in the trust world on the trust side first party trusts which are funded by the the the person with a disability so if if mom passes away and junior gets the money and then he realizes oh no this is going to mess up my Social Security he's gonna lose one month of Social Security for sure but if he right away gets scrambles and and gets an attorney to write a first party special needs trust for him he can then transfer that money before the month is over and the second month he's gonna get his SSI. 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:26.239 All right but now he's put the money into a first party special needs trust which is going to be subject to Medicaid payback rules. 00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:30.000 So he's gonna lose it if he dies or the family will lose it. 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:43.920 Better would be to set up a third party special needs trust now make sure all your beneficiary designations go to the third party trust not the individual and that way it bypasses ownership. 00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:50.719 And if I could interject here Alan meanie what I would recommend you do is read Alan's book. 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:56.400 Well that's a good idea it's a very short book it's like just a little over 200 pages. 00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:01.199 It's about as long as my book and it's written in plain English. 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:20.639 I know I was financial pardon I said I gotta say I was already zoning it out there so okay well yeah but but the book is like written in plain English it tells its story at the beginning every chapter is short and crystal clear. 00:35:20.960 --> 00:36:03.440 And I will tell you Alan when I read it as I just read it before this program we were right in the middle of setting up Jim's trust and based

on other information that I've gotten from other programs here we were setting up a pooled trust and because of your book now we have a third party trust a pooled trust based on how much we were going to put in it just wasn't going to do it for Jim and also the um they just weren't set up for they were set up for like$20,$30,000 trusts and I think and just not going to provide the services of the company that we now have. 00:36:04.079 --> 00:36:18.559 So I thank you for that and maybe if you read it I think you would know all the stuff that's zoning out um right now and I feel really good about Jim because he has the Able account, the small potatoes that's the stuff he's dealing with himself. 00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:28.239 And then the big money goes into the special needs trust and they will work with him to you know get him what he needs but not what he doesn't need. 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:37.440 And then Angela is going to be the trust protector his sister and so um she can get all the financial reports and look things over. 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:50.079 So you still can have your daughters involved and then they also if it's in that trust then you don't have the Medicaid uh claw back by the government for sure. 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:58.719 Yeah and you use an outside trustee like a corporate trustee as one of the trustees it's I don't know if you know first fiduciary in Minnesota is the one we settled on. 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:09.679 We did several interviews there were another one Capital First I think was the name of it we that was one of the lucky yeah those were our two finalists and we picked the one in Minnesota. 00:37:09.840 --> 00:38:07.760 We had our financial planner talk to our uh two finalists and he just talked to the Minnesota one and said go with that they're wonderful I'm not even going to interview the other one so so we went with that one but they're all set up to deal with the money going back and forth in or back because our trust is going to be all our money will stay with our financial planner as you recommend maybe you want to talk about that a little bit yeah I just throw in before you answer that that we did have an early on episode on something called Planned Lifetime Assistance Network, which is an option that's what I have for my son that when I die, my my when my husband and I, that his portion of whatever we have left, who knows, you know, will go in it in our will it doesn't go to him it goes to this plan, P L A N Planned Lifetime Assistance Network. 00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.880 And so I fill out this thing every year of how I want the money spent for him. 00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:19.920 So is that I it sounds like that's similar to uh what we've done and there is an episode on that if you want to listen. 00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:30.400 Um so Alan I hope I didn't make you lose your train of thought uh yes I actually did because I'm sitting here thinking like I've never heard of this this network so that sounds fascinating. 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:37.199 I want to look them up okay okay and um I will tell you at some point what episode it is that will be in the show notes. 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:49.599 Um yeah I I set that up quite some time ago and I I think you know the the layman's advice I would have is to every family must make their own decision. 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:56.960 My decision was I don't want my daughter to have to make decisions for my son. 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:02.079 That was my not you know I don't she's got enough with three kids and two and a half years. 00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:05.440 She, you know, I don't I I don't want that burden on her. 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:30.079 So I have given it to the lawyers I have given it to the trust um so but other families do their daughters want to step up so it's an individual family decision but Alan is here to tell us probably the best advice and obviously we want everybody to get the book because it's all there but um you it makes me feel good you haven't heard of Plan Lifetime Assistance Network. 00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:36.559 But again it's it's Plan of C T is the one that I went through and we had Mike Macniak on there who who spoke about it. 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:57.920 And uh you know so you you you you're here talking about able accounts but you know are there other favorite two or three pearls of advice from your book that you have for our listeners that you well I think what Mindy was referring to earlier what made me think uh about when Mindy was talking earlier was that it it's not just there's not just one idea. 00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:07.280 You know it's it's all it's it's a it's a program it's a plan uh that that needs to be put together and these are all just components of the plan and they're not perfect for everybody. 00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:20.639 They're you know an able account isn't for everybody and neither are first or third party special needs trusts but having a you know a a plan that's to me that that's probably the I'm a planner what a surprise. 00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:25.840 So my plan of I'm not gonna worry about it because I'll be dead isn't really a a good plan. 00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:27.199 No that's not a good plan. 00:40:27.519 --> 00:41:06.559 I'm sorry Mimi Yeah but for some families it can work you know I mean and it's different but I know families who have uh Down syndrome children and you know their siblings are happy to step up and say when you're gone he'll live with me and I in every family makes their own decision but I think a well-informed decision is probably the best one right yeah and to think it through as somebody who's sort of been there done that I think makes a big difference because initially you know for years and years we always just put and this before I was really so deeply involved in special needs planning it just made a lot of sense just to keep keep the trustees in the family and and the successor trustees would be the next

generation and so on. 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:37.760 That doesn't work here it it it's it's actually almost a recipe for disaster in the special needs world I found because so many families we talked to or would we we would see the progression and mom and dad have passed away and now uh the sister's the bad guy and sister's hope you know standing between the money and the and the beneficiary and uh especially when we're talking about schizophrenia we you know it's paranoia is a pretty big component of that and it just destroys any chance of a relationship. 00:41:38.719 --> 00:42:37.280 Maybe it'd be better to have a co-trustee that's a um like like uh uh uh Mindy was talking about uh you know use a third party corporate trustee uh who can be the bad guy and that way you can still have a family member on there as a co-trustee uh and um now that family member can basically say hey I gave it a shot you know it's not it's not my decision it's there's those are those are the bad guys not me and at least have a chance at restoring or keeping that relationship uh going I think keeping the relationship is the most important thing you know you want the family to be the family and everything bad in anything is you're on their side against whoever that is right well how many relationships do our kids have yes you can count them on one hand if even that you know and so to lose a a a sibling that relationship is probably the last one they have and that to me is everything. 00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:53.199 Alan when Roger was Jim's payee there was so much arguing and I got involved and we were all arguing about it and um then we that's when we got the other company and it just didn't work out after they sold it and we got a bad one. 00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:58.320 But to begin with it was very nice to have someone else doing it. 00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:39.760 Yeah something else that you mentioned you have other children Alan yes yes he has a sister yeah and so you know you're familiar I remember her calling me uh a few summers back and and we were in the car I remember exactly where we were and because it was one of those big moments in your life you know and she said uh dad I just want to let you know that me and Malik my my her husband have talked about it and we just want to make sure you guys know that we're gonna be here for you know she knew what we're thinking about and everything that we're gonna be here for him and and I told her Paige I'm never gonna do that to you and I explained to her how co-trustees work. 00:43:40.239 --> 00:44:07.599 Uh and she was like wow you can do that so yeah of course you can and uh you know so I think a lot of it's just naivete people just don't know what the options that they have are open to them and there's always and that's kind of one of the themes I want to talk yes but what are the pearls in the book and one of them is there's always a way right you just maybe Maybe it one way involves a little more sacrifice than another way, or maybe there's a little more pain this way, but there there's always a way uh to make it work. 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:13.840 Uh just you need to think out of the box sometimes and and look for it. 00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:23.920 Um the other thing the the last little pearl that you mentioned is taking care of you. 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:35.039 We spend so much time with our clients uh all over the country helping them understand that they need their own time. 00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:39.440 We need to to factor that into their financial plan. 00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:46.960 Uh it and like for Gail and myself, it's just we we force ourselves to get away. 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:50.000 Uh because if you don't, well you all know. 00:44:50.079 --> 00:44:52.000 You're I'm I'm preaching to the choir. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:54.480 Thank you so much. 00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:58.000 We're we're getting to be out of time. 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:07.519 And this is gonna be my final question to you, which is we at least, we three moms, we've been like trying stuff out. 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:09.760 Like we're not completely in the dark. 00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:14.480 But let's say someone is listening going, I've never even thought about this. 00:45:14.639 --> 00:45:22.960 Like, I don't uh like for instance, I didn't know till two years ago that I didn't have to be my son's financial conservator. 00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:28.000 I only applied to be that so I could get him kept in the hospital and medicated. 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:30.960 So I got conservator of a state and person. 00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:44.480 And then it just snowballed on like, well, I guess I'm the representative paying now for social security, and we opened another account and I did it wrong, and then I had to, you know, I had to do financial reports every year, and I'm I'm an actor. 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:46.079 I'm like, well, what's a financial report? 00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.079 That's where the famous actors have managers. 00:45:48.239 --> 00:45:54.559 I just have my own brain, and I'm in, and you know, and I would fill it out, but I didn't even know who to call for help. 00:45:54.719 --> 00:46:03.440 Like, so what if if a family is like I was, what's the first phone call they should make to an attorney, to a financial planner? 00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.039 Uh what kind of attorney? 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.840 Like, what is what are the first couple of steps? 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:13.519 If a family is listening to this, going, oh my God, I got to get on this, what can they do? 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:19.519 Yeah, uh honestly, um it's gonna sound biased, but it it's the the financial planner. 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:20.480 It has to be. 00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:28.800 Uh, the financial planner is the only one in this whole scenario that's like 30,000 feet up looking down on everything. 00:46:29.119 --> 00:46:49.039 And a good financial planner will work very carefully to preserve

all the relationships you've already got, but maybe put some nice little suggestions in on why you might want to think about changing something if if a particular relationship's not really benefiting you. 00:46:49.360 --> 00:47:12.559 So you would look for a the they would look for you, perhaps North Star Financial Planners, but uh if you can't handle 600 new clients, they could also Google financial planner special needs, like what actually I'm gonna uh so one of the reasons I merged North Star Financial Planners with Modera Wealth Management is the size. 00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:17.920 So we were getting uh we're we're growing too fast. 00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:22.320 And I needed the resources of uh Modera Wealth Management. 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:39.519 So we went from a team of basically one uh wealth manager, senior level wealth manager, which is me, and then I've got my junior advisors to we now have five wealth managers, all who just specialized in special needs. 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:44.800 I mean, there's like 160 total, but five of us, this is all we do. 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:48.880 And um nationwide or only in your state? 00:47:49.360 --> 00:47:49.920 Nationwide. 00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.920 Yeah, I mean, we were already nationwide. 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:56.800 We have clients in California and New York and how would people reach you? 00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:00.480 I'm sure that information's in the book, but how would people reach you? 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:06.000 Or the what's a website or uh uh yeah, they could uh moderawealth.com. 00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:06.800 Okay. 00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.760 Yeah, M O D E R A Wealth.com. 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:11.280 That's the first step. 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:16.400 And um I I would I would uh second that because that's that was very helpful for us. 00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:27.039 My last question is what if somebody thinks, well, that's all good and well for those people who have money to plan with. 00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:33.039 What if a person is basically you know living paycheck to paycheck? 00:48:33.119 --> 00:48:38.320 Is there anything we could say to them about any of this being worthwhile? 00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:42.320 Um, that is who I wrote that book for. 00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.400 So the first thing to do is to read the book. 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:51.039 Um after that, uh you're still reach out. 00:48:51.199 --> 00:49:01.519 I think I don't think I've ever met certainly nobody in this field, in the special needs field, that won't just give you gobs of free advice. 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.840 Uh because we're not doing it for the money, clearly. 00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.119 We're we're we're in it because each of us has a passion. 00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.280 Everybody that I know that's a special needs planner has a son or daughter. 00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.840 That's their drive, that's why they're here. 00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:17.760 Uh, and they're really here to help

people. 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:19.840 So I would still reach out to people. 00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:27.199 Uh, and um you know, you can ask about minimums and stuff, but bottom line is ask them what should I be doing now? 00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:28.960 And they'll probably tell you. 00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:30.719 Thank you. 00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:32.400 Fantastic. 00:49:32.719 --> 00:49:37.119 Um do you want to talk at all about ride to awareness? 00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:39.599 Oh, well, that was a fun, yeah. 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:41.360 We talk about it in the book. 00:49:41.599 --> 00:49:49.440 Um, I I'm an avid cyclist, loved biking, and I love especially adventure cycling, which is long, long, long rides. 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:59.039 Uh, so I did a ride from Key West up to Bar Harbor, Maine, and just it was 57 days of of just awesomeness, you know. 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:03.280 And so then I really wanted to do it again, but my son was getting sick. 00:50:03.599 --> 00:50:06.880 And so there was about a five-year lag there. 00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.079 And my wife could tell I really wanted to go another ride. 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:16.960 So she said, I'll let you go, but yeah, but it this one has to be like worth it. 00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.360 It's good, we have to do some good. 00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:23.519 And so obviously that that was going to be you know, some good towards the mental health world. 00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:31.920 So we set up ride to awareness as a foundation, then for um uh to raise awareness around the stigma around mental illness. 00:50:32.079 --> 00:50:37.519 And we contact, we started in San Diego and started riding east, and we finished in St. 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:39.440 Augustine, Florida. 00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:45.119 Uh, in each of the major cities we went through, we typically have events, we'd have the TV people come out and meet us. 00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:52.159 We had a big van all decorated and stuff, and a team of riders on this one, uh, sponsors, the whole deal. 00:50:52.239 --> 00:51:07.119 It was it was it was an incredible amount of work, and uh we raised a lot of money and to raise a lot of awareness, especially for the NAMI's and the MHAs in um uh this the cities along the route, like Phoenix and El Paso and Austin. 00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:08.880 Where are you located, Anna? 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.679 We are in South Florida, in Fort Lauderdale. 00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:12.559 Yeah. 00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:14.800 So that was a lot of fun. 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:19.119 We have since shut down the foundation, we don't have it going anymore. 00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.239 Um, I'm too old to ride across country anymore. 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.000 I've I've I've done with that. 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.639 Well, it's there, it was done, and that that's a fabulous thing. 00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:30.719 So, you know, we're near the end of our time. 00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.639 Is there anything we haven't asked you that you wanted to make sure you had a chance to say? 00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:37.039 You know, I think you guys have done a wonderful job. 00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:37.760 I'm good. 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:44.400 Well, I'm sure when I hear this back, I'll I'll hear all kinds of things I should have said, but that's always the case. 00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.679 They can always read your book or or reach out to you. 00:51:47.840 --> 00:51:58.000 And you know, as we mentioned, you can uh we have other episodes, but this has been so so enlightening and and thank you gave me a lot of clarity. 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:14.639 So I thank you so much for your I'm going to be hoping that soon um Randy will have looked into able accounts as soon as her son is able with the conservator, and that we can finally convince Mimi to, if you read the book, I bet you you will do something. 00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:16.480 Well, I'll tell you what I did. 00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:19.039 I ordered the book already while we were. 00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:21.920 Oh good, oh good, oh good, yay, Mimi. 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.679 Oh, that was my little cash register bell that went off over here just now. 00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:28.239 Oh, that's okay. 00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:28.880 Okay. 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:37.039 Alan Gacy, thank you so much for joining us today and for your for your passion for this subject that we all need so well. 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:38.559 Thank you very much. 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:44.559 Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Schizophrenia Three Moms in the Trenches. 00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:53.119 You can help out the podcast and help others by sharing the podcast and by subscribing wherever you get your podcasts and or on YouTube. 00:52:53.440 --> 00:53:01.599 And remember, you can reach us at mindygryling.com, randy k dot com, or miriamheifenfeldman.com.