Full Transcript for The Anxiety Trap: Moving from Overthinking to Wise Effort | Dr. Diana Hill

graduate school, because he um had this practice with smoking, which is very similar to anxiety, and I'll explain why. 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.519 But the practice was something called urge surfing. 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:55.759 And basically, an itch or uh an anxiety, you know, symptom, like, oh no, I'm gonna have what if this goes wrong? 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:03.199 I just need to go check it out, or I need to, you know, text that that terrible like text that person one more time, and then it it usually goes bad, you know. 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:08.079 Like I've sought reassurance, I've gotten nothing back, and I'm texting them again and again and again. 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:14.319 What happens with that itch or that urge or anxiety is that it's much like a wave. 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:16.560 Sort of like a craving is like a wave. 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:20.800 And the wave increases and increases and increases and increases. 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:25.680 And at some point, we get into this spot where we're like, I can't handle this. 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:33.839 It's we have this like we imagine that's just gonna go off into the universe and it's actually going to harm us in some way. 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.959 Like this anxiety is gonna, it feels unbearable. 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.360 I can't handle it, is what I hear in my practice. 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:41.360 It's it's uh unbearable. 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:42.480 I can't stand it. 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:58.480 And so we give in and we do the, we do the thing, whether it's if you struggle with people who struggle with, you know, like germophobia, they go and they wash their hands one more time or a little bit more, or reassurance seeking, or whatever your flavor of choice is in terms of that safety behavior. 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:09.439 But when you do that, it ends up being that the next time you get on that wave, you get off a little sooner and you get off a little sooner, and you actually decrease your capacity to surf it. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:18.959 So, what is urge surfing, or what it, I mean, I'm from California, so a surfing metaphor works for me, but maybe you a snowboarding metaphor or somebody else's skateboarding or whatever. 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:20.639 Um, what biking? 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:25.759 But when we're surfing an urge, what you what we do is first just notice it. 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:28.959 Like I'm noticing anxiety in my body right now. 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:34.000 And I'm noticing my mind is telling the story that my mind tells me. 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:41.759 And can I loosen my grip around it, be with it, ride it out a little bit, and notice that it changes. 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.439 It gets to a point where it rises and then it comes back down again. 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:58.079 And once you've surfed anxiety, which is not an easy task to do, but staying with it, staying present in this moment, then you get better at surfing and you get stronger at it over time. 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:01.199 And the waves may actually may or may not change. 00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:16.639 Like you may still have a wave of anxiety before walking into a social event or, you know, the holidays are coming up, all sorts of anxieties show up for people socially and with families, and it's it's a knot in your stomach, it's fluttering in your heart, it's all the things. 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.959 And you develop more capacity to write it. 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:22.800 So urge surfing is one thing. 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:29.360 And that when we're talking, when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about specific skill sets, being mindful to be, you know, to be present in the here and now. 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.040 You can handle anything in the here and now. 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.720 You can't handle what's gonna happen an hour from now, but you can handle now. 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:38.480 Um, notice your own mind and not let your mind run the show. 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:44.639 Your mind's gonna tell you all sorts of things about big scary waves when you're on the wave, and it's like, okay, thank you, mind. 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:46.720 I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna stick with this. 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:55.920 Um, and then also like it's a little bit of um loosening your grip because anxiety is so much gripping, so much controlling, so much tightening. 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.680 And that's where we see a lot of the physiological symptoms associated with anxiety. 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:02.160 But can I can I loosen my belly a little bit? 00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:03.439 Can I drop my shoulders? 00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.439 Can I exhale a little longer? 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.040 Not to get rid of this anxiety, but just to be with it. 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:10.560 Just to be with it. 00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:11.519 It's so interesting. 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:13.759 You brought up the analogy of surfing. 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.959 You know, I grew up in Panama and I got to surf on occasion. 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:21.519 Not that I'm a big time surfer by no means, but I surfed, I paddled a bit. 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:31.839 Uh, paddling was more, more, more common for me, but you can't be like rough and like you have to flow with the you and the surfboard or the paddle board have to be one. 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:38.799 And you have to adapt and you have to bend your body with the waves and and because if you try to resist it, it's not gonna work. 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:50.799 And and so like it that whole component of not holding on to the tension, you know, but really just all right, I'm in the moment and I'm gonna flow and I'm gonna ride the wave. 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.480 I I like that analogy because I've actually experienced it while doing that. 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:59.279 And it and and there's an important part of that is like why? 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.399 Like why would we be

willing to? 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:08.000 We were just talking about travel, and that's a really, you know, travel is a place where people have a lot of anxiety. 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:11.039 They have anxiety, I have anxiety on airplanes. 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:24.799 Um, maybe you have anxiety being around crowds, or maybe you have an anxiety around like, oh my gosh, I'm traveling to go visit my in-laws, and that feels like, uh, you know, whatever that is, like the anxiety around germs, it's all the things that happen in travel. 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.519 It's just like a nice uh petri dish for anxiety. 00:09:27.759 --> 00:09:33.279 And so the question becomes okay, if we're asking you to surf this, why? 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.799 Why does it matter to you to travel? 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:42.960 Like, is there, even if it's like visiting your in-laws and that makes you anxious, there's probably a reason why you're doing it. 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:47.279 Maybe it's because you want your kids to have a relationship with their in-laws. 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:48.960 Maybe it's because you care about your partner. 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.799 Uh, maybe you're traveling because, at least for me, I travel a lot for work. 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.879 And every time I'm on the plane, I'm like, take me now, we're going down. 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.799 But I, but I care so much about, I care so much about what I do. 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:03.039 I mean, I train therapists all over the world. 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:13.759 It brings me so much vitality to be in a space with 400 therapists that are just doing the hard work of being mental health professionals and to give them practices and ideas like we're talking about here. 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.519 So I bring that up close into mind of like, why am I doing this? 00:10:17.679 --> 00:10:18.159 What is this? 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:24.240 What am I, why am I willing to experience this wave of anxiety so that my life opens up more? 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:29.039 And when you have that in mind, it's like the surfer, like, why would a surfer subject themselves? 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:31.039 If you don't care about it, don't surf. 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:38.639 And and I, and I think that's a little bit of a, you know, like I don't believe in pursuing making yourself anxious just for the sake of it. 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:42.159 So older CBT kind of exposure therapy would do that. 00:10:42.240 --> 00:10:43.919 It like it's like very kind of structured. 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:47.519 We're just gonna like, you know, do expose you to your fears. 00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:52.240 But the type of work that I do that's act-based is like, you know what? 00:10:52.480 --> 00:11:00.639 Those I don't have to expose you to those fears because if you are living a full life, the things that you care about will evoke your fears for you. 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:07.600 And I want to know what you care about and then what

fear you're willing to have in order to pursue that care. 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:13.519 Like I'm willing to get on an airplane and like I'm like watching the flight attendant the whole time. 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.320 I'm like, okay, you're like my I'm like co-regulating with the flight attendant. 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.159 If you're calm, I'm calm, lady, you know? 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:20.159 And so I'm watching her the whole time. 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.320 Sometimes I'm holding my seatmate next to me. 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:23.519 I'm like, can I hold your hand? 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:24.879 Sometimes I'm holding their hand. 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.159 Why am I willing to do all that? 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:30.320 Because I can go into a room with born to therapists and do what I'm here to do on this planet. 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.080 I know what my karmic assignment is. 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:43.120 So it is a little bit of that work that feels really important to me that's been left out of anxiety treatment because we get so like, you know, medical and we're all doing exposure and yada yada. 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.480 But it's more about the values underneath it. 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:47.679 That's what I'm interested in. 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:51.279 And then you learn how to surf because you value something in there. 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:52.960 Well, I love that. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:59.519 You know, keeping your eyes really focused on why you're doing what you're doing, you know, I uh that's so important. 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:03.279 You know, I I am someone who has to travel a lot for work as well, regularly. 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.360 You know, that can be a lot sometimes, but then it's like, oh, but I get to do this. 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.759 I get to be able to meet people in both these states. 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:17.039 I get to be able to have um opportunities all over the country, all over the world, and meet people like yourself for this podcast, for example. 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:23.200 And and so sometimes we can get lost in the system of going and then lose sight of like the why. 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:25.679 And I think that why can be so clarifying. 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.440 Yeah, you're also doing something there. 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:34.559 So in ACT, we have these sort of six core psychological processes that we're working with people on. 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.240 And we're working with them to be more flexible in each of them. 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:47.120 Together, it's called your psychological flexibility, your capacity to be with discomfort, stay present, engage with what matters to you, even when life is uncomfortable. 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:48.960 That's psychological flexibility. 00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:54.000 And it turns out your capacity to be psychological flexible influences all sorts of things. 00:12:54.159 --> 00:13:00.559 You perform better, you're a better parent, you have less anxiety and depression, you they use it with athletes, all sorts of things. 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:02.000 But there's six of them. 00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:14.080 And one of them that you were talking about there when you were saying, like, well, I have this opportunity, I can travel right now, is also what I would consider attentional flexibility. 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.919 Because when we're anxious, our attention gets really, really, really narrowed. 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:21.840 It focuses on the negative. 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:24.240 Anyone that has social anxiety knows this. 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:35.039 Like, all you can do when you're socially anxious is focus on like how awkward you look or the ums that you're saying, or the weird spaces between your words. 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:42.240 Even me just saying this now makes me a little socially anxious because I'm paying way too much attention to the way I'm talking, right? 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:47.360 So our attention narrows and it gets it gets narrowed on the negative. 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:53.679 It gets narrowed how things makes, you know, the hypervigilance because your threat system is activated and that's what your threat system is designed to do. 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:56.240 Keep you safe, look for things that are dangerous, right? 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:02.799 But what you were doing in that example is you're you were shifting your attention to gratitude. 00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:08.960 You're shifting your attention to what um another really important skill in psychology is savoring. 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:11.360 I'm not always gonna have a body that can travel. 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.679 I might not always have the finances or a job. 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:14.879 This changes over time. 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:15.519 We don't know. 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:17.120 Ooh, scary, unpredictable. 00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:18.639 Yeah, we don't know. 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:27.200 We may not, you know, like the pandemic, we did not know the night before the pandemic hit that we were not gonna have a whole lot of things the next day. 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:27.600 Yeah. 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.240 Right. 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:31.200 Uh maybe some people that were paying attention did know, but I didn't. 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:32.399 I was like, school's closed. 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:36.639 Oh my gosh, all the things that I thought I had, I don't have anymore, like childcare. 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:44.000 The ability to have attentional flexibility is that at any point in time, there's always things that are scary you can pay attention to. 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:54.000 There's things that are beautiful you can pay attention to, there's things that are joyous, there's things that bring us grief, and there's things that offer us gratitude, that we have gratitude around. 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.519 And you get to be the chooser of where you're placing your

attention. 00:14:57.679 --> 00:14:59.440 That's what I was saying, like on the on the flight. 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.480 Like I'm I'm tuning in to the flight attendant. 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:04.480 Yeah, who does this every day? 00:15:06.080 --> 00:15:06.960 Who does this every day? 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:21.200 I'm not tuning in to the up and down, up and down, up and down of the turbulence because I know, or I'm not sure in some situations things like anxiety, the worst place to tune in is into your body because you're over-tuned to the sensations of anxiety in your body. 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.840 You need to get some eyes out on what's happening around you. 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.399 The worst place to pay attention to is your head. 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:34.960 Maybe we need to, you know, let our head do its thing and pay attention to the person who's talking instead of your head that's having all this commentary about what you're saying. 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:40.480 So attentional flexibility is a really important part of the psychological flexibility processes. 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:41.440 It's one of five. 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:44.080 We can start to train up flexibility in all sorts of forms. 00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.440 And if you think about anxiety, the opposite of anxiety is to be flexible. 00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:50.320 Because anxiety is quite inflexible. 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:52.320 That's so interesting. 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.720 I've never thought about it that way, actually. 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.120 You know, that's very, very interesting. 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:04.159 Because anxiety to in my in my mind, right, has always been like, well, you're kind of all over the map. 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:05.519 You're like water and air. 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.679 You're just messy, you know, you're just kind of everywhere. 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:09.279 And you're like, I don't know what to do. 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.840 But really, what you're trying to do is you're trying to hold on. 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:25.600 You're trying to hold on, like the you know, like when you're in the car and you know, you you're not the one driving, you're the passenger, and you're kind of like feeling insecure about the person driving, and you're trying to like hit the brake, or you're holding on to the the handles, and you're like, you can't, you don't know what to do. 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:34.879 And so you're you're really tense and gripping rather than just being like, and this driver knows what they're doing, probably, and they are fine and I'll be okay. 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:44.399 And just and even if they don't know what they're doing, me gripping onto the handle above my window is not gonna really do anything. 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:52.480 In fact, what we know about you know, car crashes is that the more tense you are in a car crash, the more uh injury you have of a result of the car crash. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.039 I used to treat anxiety quite quite a bit. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.440 And I remember I had this um one client who had fear of driving. 00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:03.200 And so our treatment was to go out on the freeway. 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.640 He would drive and I'd sit in the passenger treat seat, and he was terrified of having a panic attack on the freeway. 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.519 Now, okay, you want to feel anxious? 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:16.480 Be in the car with somebody who has fear of having a panic attack on the freeway. 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.839 I mean, I was like, oh my gosh, am I safe in this in this situation? 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:21.519 I'm like seat belted in. 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.799 And so all these things of like, what why am I doing this? 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:25.920 What's important to me? 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:30.079 I actually really care about he was a younger, you know, 19-year-old, 20-year-old kid. 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:31.039 I'm like, care about this kid. 00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:32.960 I want him to be able to drive. 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:38.400 Like, this is like a this is gonna open his life up if he's not having his mom drive him everywhere, right? 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:39.519 I want him to be able to drive. 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:40.559 So I'm gonna care about that. 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:48.400 And then also I knew that his anxiety, his panic would not cause him to crash. 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:53.279 Actually, in fact, when you're when you're more anxious, you're he's more hyper-vigilant. 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:55.839 He's noticing all the cars that are that are coming at him. 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:56.799 He's fine. 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:03.440 And me gripping onto the the little thing on the side is not gonna make us any safer. 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.759 So I had to do a lot of practice of like, you've got this kid, letting go. 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:20.079 And as I did that, as I was more just sort of like willing to be with this is hard, this is uncomfortable, we're doing something that's hard together, the more that he was willing to do it and the better driver he became. 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.079 So I mean, we want to dose ourselves. 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:26.960 Like you don't need to like throw if you're afraid of having a panic attack on the freeway, you don't like get on the freeway day one. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.920 We're like, let's do some, you know, let's do some side streets. 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:39.519 And um, and when we build that up of doing some side streets, if you think about that anxiety in a relationship or whatever, you got to do the side streets first and then you work your way up to it. 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:43.200 But the most important thing is that you get in the car. 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:50.319 Because if you don't, you will, your life will get more and more narrow and you will get more and more anxious. 00:18:50.480 -->

00:19:02.480 This happened to a lot of people during COVID, not by our fault, but just a lot of difficult things happened and we lost our capacity to be around each other, to do things that we were doing before COVID. 00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:04.480 We got really scared, understandably. 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:06.960 And the only way out of that fear is through it. 00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:09.759 It's very uh moving towards it. 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.680 Yeah, you're so right. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:26.160 And I think people who do end up in anxiety, and in a couple of times in my life when I've had anxiety attacks, it's you the more you resist the anxiety, you know, the it having that moment, the more longer it goes. 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.960 Whereas if you just go with it, it actually tends to dissipate faster. 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:37.599 I do like theta healing with with uh my clients, you know, and I help people with theta brainwave techniques to deal with trauma. 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:41.839 And for the most part, I was like, oh, I'm re relatively regulated and I'm doing good. 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.960 And but then certain triggers will come in in in in life. 00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:48.960 And I've had a couple occasions in my life where I had an anxiety attack and I didn't know what they were at the time. 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:50.079 This was some years ago. 00:19:50.240 --> 00:20:00.559 And I'm like, I don't know why I'm shaking uncontrollably, I don't know why I feel like I'm hyperventilating, and it was like I would resist it and it got worse and worse and worse. 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:08.480 And then some, you know, and then I was just like, the times when I learned to just get limp and just flow, like I think that's exactly what you were saying. 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:14.480 Now it's like clarifying, it was a lot easier, you know, than me trying to, I don't know, just be so tenslotted. 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:20.960 Well, there's a reason why the first thing they teach kids when they're learning or adults when you're learning how to swim. 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:23.440 I have two two uh teenage boys. 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:28.799 The first thing they taught both of these two two dudes was lie on your back and float. 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:30.640 Be a starfish. 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:47.039 And the reason why they teach you that first when you're swimming is because people's instinct when they get into the, if they were to fall into a pool or you know, and they don't know how to swim, is to, you know, scramble, put a lot of effort into this, try and like get yourself ahead of a head above. 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:53.359 And you can just imagine like the, you know, the kid that's trying to get their head above water and they exhaust themselves and then they end up drowning. 00:20:53.839 --> 00:21:05.359 And and that's the experience of anxiety, is like we our nervous system gets so scared, and then we start doing all these things to try and scramble to save our life because we feel like it's gonna kill us. 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:11.599 And the the irony is that no one ever, ever, ever has ever died of anxiety. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.400 I've never met anyone dying of anxiety. 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:20.640 I have, even though people say I feel like I'm gonna die of anxiety, no one's ever died of anxiety. 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:25.680 But a lot of people have died in their attempts to not feel anxious. 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:38.079 And we see this with, you know, overdoses, we see this with, you know, all sorts of avoidance behaviors, substances, ways in which we are trying to get rid of this thing. 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:45.680 But if we can learn to be with it and float, it doesn't necessarily make that deep end, like it's you're still in the deep end. 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:47.119 Like it still is hard. 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.440 Like there's a lot of deep ends in our life. 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:51.759 Just being human is a deep end. 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:59.680 Really, if I if I were to go back to when I was like 10 years old and like whisper, if you think about this, like go back to when you were 10. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:05.920 And then whisper to your 10-year-old little self all the bad things that are going to happen to you. 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:17.359 You know, the people and the pets that are going to die, the breakups that you're going to have, the failures, the jobs you're going to lose, the lonely times. 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.559 Like if you were to whisper that into a 10-year-old's ear, they would not want to take another step. 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:29.200 I mean, life is full of really hard things, like really hard things. 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:38.240 And all of those things, if you look back to your 10-year-old self and you navigating through all that, all of those hard things also developed you as a human. 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:48.640 You have more compassion, you have more skills, you have an understanding about the world, you have more wisdom, you have, you know more about what's important to you because you've been through this hardship. 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.799 So with anxiety, it's like we're trying to prevent anything bad ever happening. 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:59.680 And what we don't realize is that we actually can develop a skill set to be with the bad things happening, to be with the uncertainty. 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:09.920 And it's the folks that that have that capacity that know how to float in the deep end and then eventually know how to swim in the deep end, are the folks that are really like can like navigate stuff. 00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:17.359 Like it's it's gonna sorry, but like now the next 10, 20 years of your life, I'd hate to tell you what's gonna happen to you. 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:23.039 There's a lot of hard stuff, but but and that's part of just being human. 00:23:23.119 --> 00:23:24.400 No one gets out of

this alive. 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:46.960 And I really see, I mean, from my practice of working with thousands and thousands of people at this point in time, the the resilience and beauty of the of the human experience to to be able to go through something like losing a partner to cancer or having your own experience of cancer. 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:54.480 And let me tell you, if you've had cancer every number of years or months, you have to revisit that uncertainty. 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:57.039 And it is hard. 00:23:57.599 --> 00:23:58.799 That's hard stuff. 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:06.400 But it's also because you've had cancer and you're revisiting uncertainty that you have an understanding of how precious today is. 00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:08.160 Today's a gift. 00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:13.839 So I really believe that anxiety can sometimes be our teacher. 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:24.559 We're anxious about things that we care about, and it's really our job to learn how to surf it and to be with it and float in it, and uh, you know, not to get rid of it necessarily. 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:26.480 It may go down, but not to it. 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.039 It's so good, you know, and thank you for saying that. 00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.640 I'm uh I've had cancer twice. 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:31.759 So there you go. 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.720 You know, it's the first time I was 14, the second time I was 30. 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.039 It is true that you kind of go, what if it happens again? 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:39.599 Right. 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:45.200 But at the same time, I'm like, but I want to live my life, you know, like I'm still here twice. 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:47.200 I've made it through it twice. 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:51.440 And to live that life, I love what you said earlier when you talked about the pandemic. 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:54.160 You said something like, I didn't know the pandemic was coming. 00:24:54.319 --> 00:24:56.480 I was just living my life, and then it came. 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:02.480 And and the idea there of we don't know what, like you said earlier, we don't know what's coming. 00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:12.480 So rather than dwelling on all of the stuff we don't know or that could happen, live today because you can't do it, like knowing the pandemic was coming, would you have done anything different? 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:18.640 I mean, it would have messed up the couple weeks, months beforehand, and you wouldn't have had that time before that. 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:19.839 It didn't change anything. 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:20.319 Yeah. 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:25.920 I was just talking, we would just talk with my kids about pandemic and pandemic trick-or-treating. 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:27.279 Do you remember pandemic? 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:42.160 I don't know if you did this, but like people did so many good, they had they create all these like shoots in their front yards where they would like put candy down and then they would like put, they put lollipops in their lawns and they hung things from the trees because we couldn't walk up to people's doors. 00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:51.839 And it was it was because of this disruption and because of this kind of horrible thing that we had to figure out really creative ways. 00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:03.839 And humans are so creative, like just as really creative ways of keeping what mattered to us, which was connecting and kids having a uh, you know, a fun time on this like ridiculous holiday that's just fun. 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:25.440 And and and so what is interesting about worry and anxiety when they've done research on um worries, there's this really classic study where they basically had people tell you all the things they're worried about and then track them for 10 days, and then 10 days later ask ask them how many of the things that you worry about came true. 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:39.839 And in that study, the median, so in statistics, median is like if you line up all the numbers and you find the one in the middle, the median number of times that somebody's worry actually came true was zero. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:44.880 The most frequent number in all of that was zero. 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.799 Now, for a few of those folks, their worry did come true. 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.039 I yeah, sometimes it does. 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.480 But I often will tell my clients, it's not the thing that you're worried about that's gonna come true. 00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:58.960 Because if you ask me what I was worried about the night before everything closed, it was not about everything closing. 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.960 It was about like, oh my gosh, I'm worried about all, I think it was like the holidays when this was happening. 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:09.200 Or, you know, I kind of remember that like I, or it was it was related to all the things on my plate that I was worried about. 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:11.920 So something else is gonna happen. 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:35.039 But your capacity to be flexible with what's happening in the here and now is your greatest resource so that you learn, like, I can handle what comes at me here and now instead of doing this thing in my head, which is trying to prepare for the thing that's gonna happen that's gonna be negative in the future, which I'm actually really inaccurate about. 00:27:35.200 --> 00:27:38.880 We're bad predictors of what the bad things are gonna happen. 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:43.920 And we usually predict that we're gonna do a worse job at handling it than we actually do. 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.000 You surprise yourself. 00:27:46.240 --> 00:27:55.119 Um, so yeah, I think that worry is such a worry is definitely one of those unwise efforts where it requires it uses up a lot of energy, it's a lot of mental energy. 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.480 It usually disconnects you from things that you care about. 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:08.720 So

when you're worrying about something, you're not really present with your friend or your dog or your work, you're in your head, which is an unpleasant place for most people to be. 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:12.640 And when you're worrying about something, you're really just not solving anything. 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.880 You're using up a lot of energy. 00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:16.240 So it's like worry. 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:20.559 I see worry as like, okay, if I'm worrying about something, it's because it's something that I care about. 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:22.799 I've never worried about anything that I don't care about. 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:29.599 If I wake up in the night and I'm worried about X, Y, and Z, it X, Y, and Z are the top things that I care about. 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:32.319 My kids, my work, my parents. 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:42.000 So then how can I act on that care for my kids, my work, my parents, right here and right now, instead of being in the loop-de-loop of worry. 00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:43.279 So good. 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:44.160 That's really good. 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:46.640 You know, I I love that you mentioned unwise effort. 00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:53.119 I know that you talk a lot about wise effort and some of the things that you brought up today, I'm assuming are wise effort, like being flexible. 00:28:53.440 --> 00:29:00.000 Because it no matter what, there's going to be effort in whatever you put your attention towards and what you live your life doing, but there's a way of living it wisely. 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.640 I'm assuming that's what that comes from, but maybe shed some light on the wise effort method. 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:05.599 Sure. 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:09.039 Well, so the actual term wise effort comes from Buddhism. 00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.720 It's one of the um steps on the eightfold path of Buddhism. 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:14.319 In Buddhism, there's all these like numbers. 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.559 It's like the four noble truths, and then the fourth noble truth is the eightfold path. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:28.240 And on that eightfold path um are things like wise effort, wise livelihood, wise speech, wise concentration, wise mindfulness. 00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:33.440 So wise effort comes like that actual terminology comes from Buddhism. 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:40.000 I practice a lot of and lean into a lot of the contemplative teachings, not from a religious perspective. 00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:47.440 I grew up, I went to Catholic school, I had like Christian influences, my dad was like super Buddhist, and I was always confused about all of it. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:30:00.400 But I did like some of, and especially as I've become more of a scientist practitioner, some of these strategies and ideas that have thousands and thousands of years of lineage between them keep on showing up over and over again. 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.559 One of which is what are you doing with your effort

and your energy? 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:06.000 What is wise effort? 00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.359 What is unwise effort? 00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:20.079 So wise effort is about the way that I define it, is about pointing your energy, your most precious resource, in the direction of things that matter to you. 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:28.720 And when you point that energy in the direction of things that matter to you, what ends up happening is that it becomes a renewable resource. 00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:31.759 So unwise effort depletes you over time. 00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:41.039 The more and more and more you're trying to change somebody or, you know, I've been in my marriage for my relationship for over 20 years, right? 00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:50.319 There are so many unwise efforts that like potholes of dynamics between the two of us that I'm just like, it is so not worth it for us to even go there anymore. 00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:58.079 Like I fully just need to accept this as it is, and I put my efforts into the things that actually have agency in our relationship that make a difference. 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:12.160 So figuring out what your values are, who you want to be, how you want to show up in this in this world, figuring out what your talents are, what your gifts are, because if you're doing something that you are talented and gifted at, it's going to be low effort. 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:14.319 For me, obviously, I'm a talker. 00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:16.720 So uh I do it for a living. 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:18.960 I'm on podcasts, I give speeches. 00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:21.519 It is so low effort for me to do this. 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:27.599 And it's and it's rewarding to me because it's aligned with my values of talking about things like mental health. 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:30.880 So this is a wise effort move of being on your podcast. 00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:33.279 When you reached out to me, said, Hey, do you want to come on the podcast? 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.519 I write about what you were talking about. 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:37.039 I like what you're about. 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:40.400 It's going to be rewarding to me at the end of this hour together. 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:42.000 I'm going to feel energized. 00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.240 I'm not going to feel depleted and burned out. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:46.160 So that's a wise effort move. 00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:59.039 Now I've been in other situations where I've had that inner sense of like whole body no, or this isn't really, this isn't really what I'm about, but I'll do it because I feel like I kind of should, or this is a prestigious position to be in. 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.279 So I'll pursue that because it looks good on paper. 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:04.319 And at the end of that hour, I feel depleted. 00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:05.839 I feel like I abandoned myself. 00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:08.240 It's an unwise effort move. 00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:16.799 So some of it is inner work of getting to know yourself, but it's really about getting to know your values, getting to know what your talents are and pointing your energy towards that. 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.039 And then life becomes more sustainable, more, you know. 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:25.759 I believe in life cycles and ecosystems and I believe in regenerative energy. 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:31.119 And I believe that's the case for us as well, many, especially for folks that are feeling pretty depleted. 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:33.039 So good. 00:32:33.200 --> 00:32:33.920 That was so good. 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:34.400 I love that. 00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:35.359 You're absolutely right. 00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:40.559 When you are in flow with who you are and what you enjoy doing, it isn't a lot of effort because it's natural. 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:42.160 Uh, I'm the same way as you. 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:47.200 I love talking and listening and being in podcast and speaking on stage is not doesn't give me anxiety. 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:53.920 I am very much like, yeah, but put me in like a, I don't know, an accounting role, and I would probably hate my life. 00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:54.559 You know what I mean? 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.240 Like it would just would not be my thing. 00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:00.640 Whereas for some people, that's like their favorite little place is to be at the desk and working on numbers. 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:06.640 And for me, I'm like, give me people, give me conversation, stimulate my mind, let me learn something, let me share what I'm learning. 00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.839 And and so it I always get energized from it as well. 00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:18.240 And I think if we applied that method in life and we go, hey, you know, I think I heard something at one point is like if 80% of what you do is depleting you, it's not a good thing, right? 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:31.039 And you know, because oftentimes that 80-20 rule of like, you know, anything that's like 80% of the time is just like, ugh, probably shift around so you can have, you know, life does have difficulty, it does have problems, it does have stress. 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:37.920 If you're mostly doing 80% of life's good, you know, we're focusing on the things that are positive, we're focusing on growth and the opportunities. 00:33:38.079 --> 00:33:43.599 And yeah, there's that 20% of life that requires things we don't want to do, like taking out the trash as an example. 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:51.039 But, you know, if you're predominantly doing the things that you don't, then you're gonna live a life that's gonna be more stressful, not very enjoyable. 00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:51.920 Yeah. 00:33:52.240 --> 00:34:00.319 And and and you can play with it though as well, because sometimes we are in situations where we are doing stuff that we don't want to do. 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.960 But if we can connect it to our values, then it can shift our our flexibility

around it. 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.960 So for example, um, I'm thinking about many clients that have aging parents. 00:34:11.119 --> 00:34:23.360 And when they talk about going to visit their aging parents, like in a um if they're in a facility, it is like the smells, the sounds, the everything about that experience is like, ugh, like it is hard. 00:34:23.599 --> 00:34:24.239 It is hard. 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:33.519 You know, working with a you know, a parent that has dementia or a parent that has physical um changes happening, and they're like looking at their parent and like this isn't who I grew up with anymore, right? 00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:38.079 Now, in that category, we'd say, like, ooh, that's an ick thing. 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:41.360 It doesn't really bring you vitality or energy, so just don't do it, right? 00:34:41.440 --> 00:35:03.360 But everything in your being, and if they have like a relationship and they care about this human, it's how can you dig into your values here and use those as the energy source to then walk into that facility, like like a like an inner source of heart, wholeheartedness, a sense of this is what I care about, this is who I want to be. 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.320 I'm gonna walk in. 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:05.840 And then I'm also gonna titrate it. 00:35:05.920 --> 00:35:07.360 Like I don't need to stay for an hour and a half. 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:11.280 You know, an eight-minute visit is plenty if you're like, this is as much as you can do. 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:13.199 And that's also wise effort. 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:16.719 I have an energy audit on my my website that people can go through. 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:26.400 And then I on my Instagram, I have this energy matrix where on the X axis, and you could just do this on a piece of paper, but on X-axis is your values. 00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:30.800 And at any point in time, you're moving towards your values or toward away from your values. 00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:38.480 So getting clued in on that, like if going to visit your parent and in the rest home is towards your values, or is it away from your values? 00:35:38.559 --> 00:35:43.920 Because it just feels like obligation and and it's not really, you know, you're having to give up something else in your life that's really important to you. 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.079 So know your towards and away moves. 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:51.679 And then the y-axis, which is the vertical one for those of us who haven't been in math for a while. 00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:54.239 Uh, the y-axis is your effort. 00:35:54.480 --> 00:36:00.800 So at any point in time, you're putting high effort into things or you're putting low effort into things. 00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:04.239 And the idea isn't just to put low effort into life. 00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.039 There's going to be moments where you're going to need to put high effort in. 00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:11.039 But when you create this little quadrant, you get

four things, you get four areas. 00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:15.760 And this is the part that I like for people to look at and even think about with anxiety. 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:25.519 So we have one area, which is if you think about this little quadrant, visualize it, the bottom left corner, which is you're moving away from your values and it's low effort. 00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:31.199 This is like when you come home from work and you're so exhausted and you just lie on the couch and you scroll. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:32.079 Yeah. 00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.199 You know, or you know, that the anxiety thing comes up and you're like, oh, I don't want to feel it. 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:41.840 So I'm going to go grab the potato chips from the cupboard, because that just kind of makes it go away quicker. 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:45.360 Or my cigarette or whatever it is that we grab, or my glass of wine, or whatever. 00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:48.719 It's like low effort, but it kind of is away from your values. 00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:54.719 And what I consider that to be is sort of like junk food rest, junk food relief. 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.039 It's not really giving you the relief. 00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:03.440 And then you have on the top left corner, which is away from your values, but high effort, that's an interesting one. 00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:09.679 That's when you're doing things that require a lot of energy, but don't line up with how you want to be in the world. 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:14.880 So that top left one will be things like, I'm like people pleasing. 00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:24.719 I'm going to the event that I don't really, don't, really want to be at or even care about, but I feel like I should go to, but it like takes everything in my whole body and being to go. 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:34.480 And I'm showing up and gritting it and, you know, and clenching my stomach the whole time, or work that you're doing that is away from your values, but you're just doing it because you feel like you should or have to. 00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:36.320 So that corner is burnout. 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:40.159 That side of the equation I consider to be unwise efforts. 00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:49.280 But then on the right side is where things get interesting because you're going to need to balance this top right corner, which is towards your values and high effort. 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.519 You're going to do stuff like that in life. 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:53.119 You're going to apply for that job. 00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:02.079 You're going to go, you know, if you're dating, you know, you're going to need to like go on that date and feel awkward. 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:05.280 If you have kids, you're going to need to set boundaries. 00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:08.559 If you have a dog, you're going to need to go pick up its poop. 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:14.239 Like that, that's sort of like, you know, the things, the things of life that that you're doing. 00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:18.880 Or if you have a dog, you're going to figure out when is the time to put your dog down. 00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:20.800 High effort. 00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:23.119 It takes a lot of effort to do that. 00:38:23.360 --> 00:38:27.599 And, or your cat or your lizard or whatever it is you care about in your family. 00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:30.079 So high effort, but towards values. 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:33.360 And I would consider those to be worth it, wise effort moves. 00:38:33.519 --> 00:38:39.599 And then you need to balance that with the bottom right, which is high is low effort towards values. 00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:41.920 This is different than scrolling on the couch. 00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:50.639 This is like low effort towards values for me is going and just walking down on my chicken coop and like saying hi to the girls and being like, hey, how's it going down here? 00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:52.320 Can I get you some sour grass? 00:38:52.559 --> 00:39:09.119 You know, or low effort towards values is like my neighbor stops by and I'm like too busy, but I just decide to talk to her and like ask her about her day because like I kind of like her as a person and I like that she's my neighbor and I, you know, so low effort towards values fill your tank. 00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.800 High effort towards values make you feel like you're doing your work in this world. 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:14.559 And all of that is wise effort. 00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:16.800 So that's a nice little grid that people could do. 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:24.480 I'm talking for way too long, but um it's a nice little grid that people can do around wise effort if you can visualize it and get out your paper. 00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:25.679 No, it's really good. 00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.039 This is this has been so insightful, like truly. 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.639 Like I I I have really enjoyed hearing your perspectives. 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:39.519 And and I think that today I'm going through some thoughts in my own head today about some decisions I have to make. 00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:42.639 And I actually have a flight tonight that I'm heading out on. 00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:46.880 And and I was on the fence about whether I should even do the trip, honestly. 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:50.960 And after hearing you, I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna take that trip. 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:52.880 I'm gonna look at that flight attendant. 00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:53.679 You know what I mean? 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.840 Like, I'm gonna just go do the thing and save her this day, save her this week. 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:05.920 You know, we don't have control over tomorrow in terms of external circumstances around us, but we do have control of how we want to live our lives today in this moment. 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:13.199 And you just gave me some answers because I was literally before the podcast actually intuitively going, what am I supposed to do? 00:40:13.440

--> 00:40:14.079 Right? 00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:18.239 And so so much of what you said was actually just like the universe saying, Here you go. 00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:20.639 So thank you so much, truly. 00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:28.079 Yeah, well, it sounds like it's a hard move to make that trip for you that you're having to come up against some inner barriers there. 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:43.199 Yeah, well, you know, that there's responsibilities in both places, you know, one's work and one's, you know, my kids, you know, and and just with uncertainty in the world right now and some stuff that's going on in the news, you go, hmm, it's just a good time to be traveling for work, you know? 00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.400 And yet I have to work and do my job, you know. 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:48.639 So it's it's like, what do you do? 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.280 But at the same time, like they're fine. 00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.400 They're they're taken care of, you know, they're gonna be okay. 00:40:54.639 --> 00:40:58.480 You know, so it's there's some really good insights here for me. 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:06.960 So on a personal level, and I think for those listening too, I just want to point this out to you who if you're listening to this right now, is you have a choice to just do that. 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:13.519 Like that that whole quadrant, the wise effort or the unwise effort, what's gonna be low effort or high effort. 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.159 It's good, it's a good perspective. 00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.000 Yeah, you know, it's interesting. 00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:32.239 I think with kids, I think we're there's a lot of uncertainty if you're a parent right now in terms of what our kids are facing and stuff that we just have no clue about um that they're gonna have to face in their in their lifetime. 00:41:32.559 --> 00:41:54.559 And and for me, always the best job that I could ever do as a parent was not trying to control the outcomes for them, but but to show them how to be in this, you know, like these kids have gone through pandemics, they've got my kids have gone through multiple fires, losses of people in their life. 00:41:54.719 --> 00:42:07.039 And I I I don't know, we want to bubble wrap them and prevent it these things from happening, but it's the the bigger gift we can give them is showing them how we how we can do it, you know, how we can in the face of uncertainty make a choice. 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:09.840 And and then what is the process that we're going through and making that choice? 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.440 You said I have to work, but I also think you want to work, you care about working. 00:42:14.480 --> 00:42:16.719 And um, and then you express that to your kids. 00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:21.039 Like, I'm I'm doing this because I because I care about something that I feel drawn to. 00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:28.079 And I hope that you can can walk through unstable times because you're driven by a care. 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:34.800 And if they have that, then that's like a protective factor, like a huge protective factor to have a caring heart. 00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:36.960 Um so it it's hard. 00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:43.599 I mean, it this is a this is a hard, it's a hard time, and it's and our ancestors have been through hard times. 00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:46.159 This is humans are it's just hard to be human. 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:47.760 This is the first noble truth, actually. 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:50.719 Life is uncomfortable. 00:42:51.360 --> 00:42:53.039 It's true, it's true. 00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:54.239 It's so interesting. 00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.880 It's from the moment you're born, you cry, right? 00:42:56.960 --> 00:43:04.719 Like it's like the first thing you do is go, ah, I'm not in my womb, the womb anymore, the place I was accustomed to, the first thing you're exposed to is uncertainty. 00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:05.679 You know what I mean? 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:10.320 And so, and then life just keeps moving forward, and and from that standpoint. 00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:11.199 Well, Dr. 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:14.480 Diana, I have appreciated you and this conversation so very much. 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:20.000 And for those listening, we include all of the links to her website and socials within the description box. 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:29.760 I invite you to to check out uh her website and reach out, and and she's on many other podcasts that are not only this one, and so be sure to to take a take a listen. 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:30.320 Uh Dr. 00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.639 Diana, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:33.760 Thank you. 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:36.960 Thank you, and for all those who are with us. 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:39.119 Stay rooted and stay wild.