Full Transcript for 27 | Leadership Lessons from the Wilderness: “There Is No Cavalry”

some experiences that I've had. But when you coach, you dig into the experiences that your client has had and you talk about what they've tried, what else they might try. You know, you are basically opening up for them their own toolkit and saying, What else have you got in there? Pull something else out. Let's try that. And let me walk with you on that journey. Let me help you be accountable. But if you know, if teaching is sharing what smart people have. Written and coaching or and mentoring is sharing the things that you and I have experienced, then coaching is really helping to analyze the experiences of our clients. The thing I loved about our experience this summer was we actually helped these young men have leadership experiences. Leadership, you kind of have to learn, at least in the beginning, by doing, right? By being exposed Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: to these challenges, being under pressure. Having to make leadership decisions and then analyzing the decisions afterwards. And that's where the coaching can kind of come in and say, How did that work? What what outcomes would you have preferred? You know, all of those great coaching things. And so for me, like this leadership, expeditionary leadership class was kind of the perfect experience because you don't really, you aren't really forced. to develop new leadership skills until you're in a crisis where you're up against it and what you have on board isn't working, so you have to try new things. And this was really what that experience was all about. Yeah, it was it was it was fantastic. Jen Brown: So I'm so curious. You and I have chatted a little bit about this experience. And it sounds like it was a lot of how to form a team who shows up as the leader, who steps into that role. What do you do when the team's not gelling? What do you do when the crisis hits? All Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Jen Brown: of these great opportunities. Walk us through first of all, what did these young men think about this experience? And and did they connect the dots right away with leadership? Hugo Rodriguez: You know, that's a really good question. And there were there were 10 guys on the trip, and I think like with anything in life, some got it earlier, some got it kind of midway through, and some kind of got it towards the end, right? And and and there are different gradations to kind of what you understand about leadership. I think most young people come in thinking that leadership is, well, now I've got a title, so you've got to do what I tell you to do. And You and I both know how that how that falls apart very quickly, right? So Jen Brown: Very, yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: I think it just kind of depends on like so. We had some guys who were who are rising sophomores, so they're early in their college career. We have some guys who are rising seniors who are later in their college career. And those you know, each each year at that age gives you a whole bunch of new of new experiences. So some of them Kind of have seen some of this before and some of them haven't. But yeah, it it kind of comes in waves. So as you mentioned, each day there's a we we select a leadership team. The leadership team includes the leader, the deputy, the medic, and the navigator. And they work together to plan how that day is going to go. Generally, it is we're going to move from the camp we're in to the camp we're going to. There are certain activities that we need to accomplish en route to that camp. and then when we get there, here's how we envision sort of getting the camp set up and and what is going to happen in the evening. Each evening, once we're kind of set up and the day is done, then director Bruden and I would sit with the guys and we'd do a debriefing session, and the guys would be able to talk about first. From the leadership and the leadership team, how they feel the day went. From the followers, right? How did they think the day went? What went well, what didn't go well. So you're kind of getting feedback on your recent leadership experience. And then we also took along a couple of books, one called The Emergency Mind and one Meditations by Marcus Aurelius to help contextualize leadership. And you know, your your professional development and your personal development and all of those things. So each night we would also do a class around the readings. And then at the completion of that class, Director Bruden would announce who the leadership team was for the next day, and off they'd go to planning the next day's journey and events. Just to give you an idea of some of the things that, you know, some of the challenges we encountered along the way. Some of these routes were pretty arduous, right? They could be anywhere from four miles with a thousand feet of climb in in a single mile to 12 miles with a lot of up and down, a lot of stream crossings. Sometimes the maps didn't resemble the actual trail. And so you'd be Jen Brown: Right. Hugo Rodriguez: following your map and you'd find, wait a second, this doesn't look right. We're we're lost. Now what do we do? And you have to figure out, okay. Using the resources I've got, how do I relocate myself on the map? So the leaders of the day with their leadership team, they would encounter all of these different challenges. And our debrief sessions were really interesting, really good conversations about how things went. And over the course of the week, those conversations also evolved into how the followers can help leaders be better. You know, and Jen Brown: That's pretty powerful. Hugo Rodriguez: Right? Isn't that powerful? Yeah. Early Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: on in the week, the followers thought their job was to critique the leaders and sort of tell them what didn't go well. But as we got further into the week, the followers would say, you know, here's something to consider. Right? Here's a way to think about this that might work better for you in the next role. Which I thought, all right, that is

what you want out of good followership, right? Followers Jen Brown: Right. Hugo Rodriguez: need to be part of the solution, not just dragged along, kicking and screaming. So yeah. Jen Brown: So you have a a a group of young men, you're all carrying your gear. So Hugo Rodriguez: All gear, yeah. Fifty pound packs. So we everything, you know, we needed for the whole week we had to carry in with us. And then, you know, over the course of the week we'd be eating down our food supplies and it got a little bit lighter through the course of the week. But yeah, everything that everything we needed had to be on our backs. Jen Brown: So I'm I'm curious, like how did that in how did this setting impact the team building, the the followers critiquing the leaders, evolving into, maybe we're partnering here, I can help you be better. Like, how did you see that shift in the camaraderie? Hugo Rodriguez: So again, I think most most leaders start by saying, I'm gonna lay out a plan and everybody's gonna follow that plan. And as you know from your leadership roles, like no plan survives first contact with the enemy. So blisters, right? the first you know, very first day we all set out, we want to set a really hard pace, cause in the leader's mind, you know. He believes he's getting judged by how quickly and seamlessly he can get the team to point B. Well, you've got blisters. Now you have to slow down, stop, and dress those blisters. Now you have to figure out how to rearrange the packs so that they're more portable, right? The very first day you're getting your packs all out of whack and you got weight on one side, and so everything has to kind of be reassessed. as I mentioned, you know, some of these days you had big inclines. So when you're thinking, well, we need to walk at this pace, and then you hit a hill like that. wait a second, now it's going to slow down. Not everybody in the in the on the team can hike as fast as the leader thinks he might be able to, or he, or the team should be able to. Let me tell you, they're dragging this 60-year-old carcass behind them. They learned right away if they didn't slow down to my pace, they were going to leave me off the back. So they got smart. They put me at the front and they made, you know, they could then pace off of the the fastest that I could go. but all of these things kind of become inputs that the leader has to consider that they didn't at you know at the start of the day. And they have to start factoring that in. And they start to realize that all of the followers maybe aren't as on board. And we've got guys with different levels of experience and everybody's a critic. And back in the line, you know, behind you, there's some muttering. And why did we go that way? And can't we just quickly walk across this stream? Do we have to put on our watershoes? All of those things, right? And so leadership, they they are able to experience pretty quickly that leadership isn't just the glory of the big title. Leadership is, you know, as one of my favorite books talks about it, leadership, Looks like stinky feet, right? You have to go and inspect everybody's blisters to see how how they are able to progress. some some guys have never been under the pressure of carrying that pack. And so every step of this thing is complicated, and you're only as fast as your slowest, least experienced guy. So, how did Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: that show start to show up at the end of the day, right? my my sense was pretty harsh criticism from the peanut gallery when we sat down around the fire at the end of the day. You know, it seemed like the followers were quit pretty quick to go with what didn't go well, you know, and and not a lot of constructive advice or Not a lot of like introspection from the from the followers. Like I could have done this better to help the leader succeed. Right? That that Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: was a fairly common refrain in the first half of this trip. Jen Brown: So this opens up two questions I have. One, as the followers were named as leaders, I'm curious if there became part of that conversation at the end of the day. Like now that I'm sitting in this seat, here's what I see and here's what, Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Jen Brown: wow, I didn't have that awareness. Right. And then two, Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Jen Brown: the second part, you named a leadership team. And so when you think of your stakeholders on the leadership team, I'm curious how they worked together to also shape the day. Hugo Rodriguez: So this was I'll answer the second question first. and and I really felt like the leadership teams I was really pleased, I was really proud of the way they supported each other on the leadership teams. Didn't happen every single time, but most of the time it did. And When there was clearly like a an imbalance in the level of experience on the leadership team. You might see you might expect to see the pace setting leader who's got more experience kind of dragging the f the the lead the other people on the leadership team who don't have as much experience, kind of dragging them, berating them, you know, whipping them forward. And I did not see that. I saw that pretty quickly the leadership team got the concept that we're all in this together. And there was, you know. eventually dawning that actually the whole team is the you know has a role in us succeeding and we kind have to bring everybody into some of these conversations. But I was really pleased with the way that the stronger elements of leadership team tended to bolster the weaker elements of the leadership team to bring everybody up to a uniform and a and a higher level. your first question was what happens when you know the The leader who got criticized on day two becomes a follower on day three and had it and the and the criticizing follower on day two becomes a leader later on. And there there might have been a little bit of that. Well, now it's my turn to criticize the leader,

right? Like you were unafraid to to you know poke my eye when I was a leader, so I'm gonna be unafraid to poke your eye. P part of I part of the I think The unfair paradigm that we, the professors, created was st it stems from the fact that we are trying not to intercede. Like really, this is not n really a a coaching or a mentoring scenario. This is allowing them to experience it more scenario. So we both tried. I think Vinton was more successful than I was. To just kind of keep your hands off and let it develop, right? but every once in a while, you know, I couldn't help myself and I'd say, Hey, why what you know, what's going on here? Why aren't you doing this? Right. Or here's a suggestion, you know. but because we were largely hands off, the way we kind of framed that feedback session, I think unfairly tilted the conversation towards criticism as opposed to a more self-reflective model. And I think that that started to develop later in the week, if I could be more specific. We tried to gently turn that criticism feedback loop at the end of the day to what could we, big we, team we, have done better, as opposed to what could the leadership team do better? Right. Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: And the key piece of this is followers are. The most important part of the team. They set they can set the tone, they can help the team succeed, or they can help the team fail. And the leader Jen Brown: No one? Hugo Rodriguez: needs to do the right things, but so do the followers. And so by changing the tenor of that conversation, by launching it with different prompts, I think we tilted it slightly enough that people start to realize: wait a second, this isn't my this isn't the role to try to, you know. criticize the leadership team, we all bear that responsibility. And so here are some things that I could have done better to help my leader succeed today. Right? That became a much more helpful conversation. Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: and then let me just let a little bit of the cat out of the bag on this. we we had some rough days where leaders did not feel like they had a lot of support. And finally, not only that they didn't have support, but that there was some some infighting within the team and some cattiness. And and so finally we had a leader who came to the two professors and said, Would you guys mind eating dinner alone tonight? Because I think we really need to have a conversation amongst ourselves. And it's just like that for me, that is worth the whole Cost of this trip. When they basically realized that, wait a second, this is on us. There is no cavalry here. Like we own this. We need to do the things that we need to do to make this whole thing work better. And so while you know, while Vinton and I kind of had dinner off by ourselves in a separate part of the campground, these guys really went at it, hammering tongs, and they built some new norms amongst themselves. That allowed them to both be more honest and more humble, right? Jen Brown: Yes. Hugo Rodriguez: As followers. And they they really like they had it out. Well, I'll and I'll tell you one of the ones that is a fairly interesting norm that they built for themselves. If someone is too self-deprecating, in other words, you know, says like. Let me give you an example if I can come up with one. Something like, yeah, I really blew that. I didn't, I made that mistake. That's on me. I'm terrible. I know. They're like, You have to give me twenty pushups, and at the top of each push up, you have to say, I like myself. And so, because apparently Jen Brown: This almost sells well, y the other professor was in the Marine Corps, right? But they're still doing this. Right, right. Hugo Rodriguez: We were off to ourselves. We had like no idea they were doing this. Yeah. but because they identified that kind of self-deprecation as not constructive for their team norms, that was one of the team norms they put in. And there were a series of them, and and that one may sound like more on the kind of less core side, but the other ones were really core things. Like what how are we going to criticize constructively? How are we going to hold ourselves accountable individually and as a team? And this was, I'm gonna say like halfway through the week, let me say. But they were, I mean, Vinton and I were waiting, and and we made it clear that we're kind of like waiting for them to form up as a team, which was kind of delayed. And we're not like that, can happen with the team. They didn't, you know. Had a they were individually the strongest group that Vinton's ever taken out to the wilderness, which also may contribute to the challenge of forming up as a team because they had we had such strong individual performers. But they took it on themselves to to storm into a better, more cohesive unit, and you could see the effects of that immediately. Immediately. and that was like you see the kind of the trajectory as a gentle incline, and then all of a sudden you have this inflection point where the team really jumps forward as a as a cohesive unit and entirely their action. Like they did it on their own, Jen Brown: They own them. Hugo Rodriguez: they did it their way, it worked for them. It was impressive to see. It was amazing. Jen Brown: So when you were talking about this, it brought me back to the Tuckman model of team development, right? You have a team that forms, they storm, they rumble Hugo Rodriguez: Right. Jen Brown: in the mud, maybe. Then they start to norm, they start to find their rhythm and figure out each other's personalities and strengths and so forth. And then they get to that level of performing. And Hugo Rodriguez: That's exactly it. That is exactly it. That's what happened, right? So they had they had done Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: that a little bit of that forming over the course of the first three days. But then in the middle where they did this storming session, it really gave them the chance to say, okay, these

are the things we did not like about the way we formed. So now we're going to reset the terms of the of how the team works. That's your norming, right? Now can I tell you about the performing? Because it really turned up. It totally Jen Brown: Yes, yes. Hugo Rodriguez: turned up the the performance. So let me jump you forward to the to the last day. So one of the things we are taking advantage of in this scenario, before we ever went out to Idaho, Vinton invited in a trainer to to get us all certified in Wilderness First Aid. Basically, in in Vinton's experience, if you're out in this sort of environment, it's inevitable that you're gonna run into people that are having trouble, or you may have trouble yourself, medical trouble, you know, physical trouble, whatever. And so Wilderness First Aid gives you a framework. You're never gonna be, you know, the guy chop bring somebody out, but you can help stabilize a situation until help arrives. So we all had this training. Vinton's model is then we get out there, he's gonna keep giving you scenarios to practice those skills. And so he'll develop this scenario where the guys will be hiking, they'll come on to him or I acting like we are in distress in some way. And it's on the team to figure out what is the distress, what is the response, do you call in help? What you'll like all of those things. And we did this throughout the week. And You know, we had mixed results early on during the week, but after that storming session and after some kind of real intensive work by Vinton, the guys built the framework. They had a mental framework for how to do this, and it was a lot firmer, a lot more solid. So we get to the last day, and Vint says, Okay, this is this is my last chance to really give these guys a hard one. So he develops this whole scenario where he and I kind of Le leave camp and then I come staggering back into camp with this tale of you know a tree fell on us and my buddy's up here and he's passed out. I think he's had a head injury and I can't move my arm and my leg really hurts. And they have to figure out what's going on with me. They have to find him in the woods, they have to figure out what's going on with him, they have to communicate with. authorities will work out a modality where they're actually communicating through us. So we can, they're not actually talking to to the rangers, but we give them feedback like they send a message, we write out a message back to them. So these guys worked for several hours to get us onto stretch first to stabilize our injuries, get us onto stretchers, stretcher us up to the trail, and like down half a mile to a trail. They work on this all morning and they're getting us out of this scenario. They did a brilliant job. It was just beautifully done. you could see like the the development, the delta from where they were when they started to where they were on this last day was just huge. And we all kind of got, we were all very excited about how well it went

and how they worked really well together and how they kind of zeroed in on the problems, identified them, anticipated what could come next. They were on top of it. Really great scenario. So we finish it up. We now have probably three miles to the trailhead. We've been out in the wilderness for 10 days. We have eaten pretty much all the food we took out there with us. Last day we're down to like gummy bears and power bars, and that is it. And a few packets of like dried oatmeal and just the detritus at the end of a long hiking trip. But we're three miles from the trailhead. There we have our rental cars. We have the campsite for the night. The idea was to hike the last three miles, set up camp, and then take the cars down a mile down the road to a lodge where dinner would be cheeseburgers and milkshakes. And let me tell you, we are all very excited about having like a real meal Jen Brown: Right. Hugo Rodriguez: at the end of this. So we start hiking and we get about a mile and a half and it starts to rain. We figured we're almost done. A little rain was not gonna hurt us. So everybody kind of throws their rain gear on and we're hiking on, hiking on. The rain's getting harder and harder. And if you can picture, we're hiking on this the last little bit of this trail, like we're inside the last mile. On our left hand side is a creek, on our right hand side is this kind of steep mountain bank going up, up, up. And as we get Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: to within half a mile, maybe even a couple hundred yards from the place where the trail. Cuts across the creek on a bridge and ends in the campground, the noise level is going up and up, and the the rain is pouring down, and it sounds like a freight train around us. And we're kind of all looking at each other like, what's that noise? Why is that noise? And and Vinton and I are at the back of the group. And Vinton says, Let me, I need, I need to get up to the front. I gotta see what's going on here. So he works his way up to the front and I follow him. And as he's pa as he passes the guys, he says, if anything happens, We are running up that mountainside. So be ready. And so he passes all the guys, he gets to the front of the group, and he's sort of surveying what's going on. And just at that moment, like up ahead of us, beyond where we think the bridge is, we hear this crash. Everybody turns and looks at it, and it's a tidal wave of a flash flood blowing through, coming down this creek. And it is like Full of trees and boulders and things just marching down through the woods, just blowing through the woods. And Vincent, without a hesitation, is like, run up the hill. Everybody just turns on a dime, goes shooting up the hill. Right. We were marching as fast as we could. We got up about 30 yards, 40 yards, and Vin yells, drop your packs. Everybody drops their packs. I'm struggling to get my pack off. Vin's like, get your pack off. I can't find the snaps. I finally drop it. We continue up another maybe

hundred yards up the side of this hill. At that point, we're well above the the flash flood, and we can just watch, you know, Mother Nature's fury as this flash flood just blows through this valley, right? Boulders and downed trees and mud everywhere. And we're sitting like all huddled in the rain, drenched behind this coal this this Front, it's just freezing cold. We can see our breath. Everybody's kind of shivering. So we do what we have to do, right? We're we're monitoring the water coming in, we're monitoring the flood in front of us. a couple of other hikers show up and they're also stranded. We we are probably, you could probably almost have thrown a rock as far as the campground was from us. We're way up high on the side of this mountain, and we can see the valley in front of us. But as far as we can see, it's all water. And we, you know, worked together with this other hiking couple. Our guys pooled up all the water that was that was left, all of our the water that we'd carried, because we were almost at the end. So we didn't have full water reserves. They pooled up all the food that was left. They basically are like, okay, we're gonna end up camping here on this hillside overnight unexpectedly. Let's see what we've got. Divvied up the water. They got a fire going to to dry clothes and dry boots because we were soaked. They set up a makeshift camp on the side of this mountain. you know, all of these, like they did all of it as a team. It was fabulous, right? Fabulous. And around like the flood hit us about 5 p.m. more or less. Around seven thirty, eight o'clock, these two outdoors people, I would say from the lodge, like come straggling across the the the mud field and get up to us, and they're like, We just wanted to hurt we heard you were here. throughout this whole thing, I should say, Vinton was on the Garmin communicating with Rangers, communicating with you know, first responders and all of that. So they knew we were together, we were safe, we were above the the flood zone. but then they had an idea that that we were out there. So anyway, these guys show up, they've struggled through the mud, like they are chest deep covered in mud. And they're like, You can get through, but it's pretty deep. The two hikers who were with us, they said, Well, we only have day packs, we'll go with them. We, of course, still had our big hiking, our big backpacking packs. So we decided to spend the night and we figured, you know, we'll We'll get up in the morning, we'll be able to have a better read on what the mess looks like, and we'll be able to get across. So, guys, they jumped to it, they set up the camp for the night. We're all ready to go. We did this kind of stone soup dinner where we kind of pooled everything we had, and everybody got like two thirds of a power bar, a handful of gummies, and a packet of oatmeal. And and it was it was awesome, but it was probably for me anyway, it was the My favorite meal of the whole trip. Like scraping it all

together with the guys and and making it work was was amazing. Around 10:30 at night, another hiking guide c shows up with a local sheriff. And they say, Look, there's rain in the forecast for tomorrow. The water's probably as low right now as it's gonna get. We really recommend you guys work your way across now. We'll lead you. But you know, even though it's dark, this is probably our best So, you know, they're Jen Brown: Wow. Hugo Rodriguez: the locals and they had the the better understanding than we did. The guys, in a, you know, an amazingly short amount of time packed everything. We were able to kind of hike our way through. Was really the mud was maybe knee deep in places, but it was just you couldn't tell where the boulders were. So it was a bit of a struggle getting through this zone. But we all get through. you know. Long story short, the the lodge let us camp there that night and gave us access to showers, which we hadn't seen in in a week, and they took amazing care of us. I have to give a shout out. Sawtooth Lodge. Those people are amazing. Christy Heinrich at the Sawtooth Lodge took such good care of us. The whole team there was really supportive. Boise County sheriffs were amazing. we got out the next day to Back over to the campground, our rental cars totally destroyed, to picked up by the flood and flung down the yeah, it's amazing. but Idaho search and rescue came out the next day with a with a sheriff's van and they took us all to the into Boise and took really good care of us. The guys b behaved like a team at the highest level, like they performed. beautifully. It was so amazing to see just how they supported each other, supported Vinton and and I, how good they were both under pressure and then also once we were past the pressure, you know, they just they behave like the gentlemen that they are and and it was really a great scary a little scary end to our to our camping expedition but it kind of the best possible capstone To an expeditionary leadership class. They got the chance to show that they had learned all of the stuff and they put it to work in the best way possible. So, you know, I'm I'm still buzzing. It's been a week since I've been back. And I think keep thinking back to the individual things these guys did over the course of the week and just what amazing men these are and and the great things they're gonna do in the world. yeah, it Jen Brown: Yeah. Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: was it was awesome. It was awesome. Jen Brown: You know, so much first I just want to say I'm so grateful that you and the whole team there are okay. Because Hugo Rodriguez: Thank you. Jen Brown: what really stands out to me is if anything in that equation had been a little different. Hugo Rodriguez: Yes, indeed. Yeah, right. Jen Brown: Right. If if the morning scenario had gone on you know a little later, if or or sooner you would have been on the bridge or yeah, Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Or sooner. If we had been 10 minutes further up the trail, we

may have been standing right where that plug blow out. Yeah, exactly. Jen Brown: yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: I I also have to give just tremendous credit to Vinton because like he is a he is a great leader, with with tremendous outdoor instincts. And they showed up all through the week. It wasn't just that last day, but he's always thinking ahead, he's always in in the moment, very present, and he's anticipating and He's you know, he is on the spot. And this was the moment when it really mattered and he reacted in just the perfect way, got everybody off the X and and the and the gentleman with us, you know, the the young men reacted instantaneously and and they reacted well. So yeah, right. And it could have gone could have gotten so much worse. Jen Brown: You know, and I think that's it. And I love that you s use the word reacted because in a crisis mode like that, that's where all the training and preparation comes into where reaction is that go-to in a in a way that is intentional, right? I otherwise reacting to me can sometimes have a different form, but reacting in a crisis when you have been training, you are going in and doing what you need to do. And if these young men hadn't gone through that storming. En and norming phase earlier. Hugo Rodriguez: Exactly. Jen Brown: They wouldn't have acted the way they did. Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And they and they each, like as a as a team, they each took little leadership roles, right? I shouldn't even say little leadership roles because that's what that's what a great team does, right? They fill in the void, they do what has to be done, they're kind of aware of both the the high-level stuff and then the detailed stuff that's got to get done. And we saw them doing both of those things on that last day, right? taking taking on the roles to get it all done to keep the greater good in mind and push forward and it was like you know Vinton and I have had conversations about this and you know inherently if you are going into a wilderness scenario you're exposed to risk that's that's kind of why you do it there you want to Turn up in a controlled way the the upsides and the downsides. Because you can't teach leadership in a classroom. You cannot give them the experiences in a classroom that you can give them when they're out there and the stakes matter. Now, I think what Vitten does incredibly well is manage risk. Anticipate, you know, at no point, and even when we're running up the side of the mountain, did I feel unsafe? Like I have to say, he had laid out a plan and we executed the plan, and there was a margin for error, and we had we had distance and we had elevation, and and like all of that was kind of you know, that was our controlling the risks. but You have to be exposed to some level and hopefully it's a small level and hopefully it's a manageable level of risk, but you have to be exposed to it to understand how to lead under pressure. Jen Brown: Hmm. I'm really curious, what did the the young men share with you after all of this? Hugo Rodriguez: you know, on the I think the universal feeling was like, my gosh, that was close. And also we did it right. Like there was a sense Jen Brown: Mm. Hugo Rodriguez: of like I wouldn't say you know un unwarranted pride, it was justified pride. And it wasn't like pride in the individual, it was pride in the team. Like we we faced a real challenge. We faced something that, you know, under different circumstances could have been life-threatening. We reacted appropriately, we looked out for each other. that is something to be proud of. I think that they they they felt that. They felt that sense of job well done, hard-earned job well done, and and that's Just a great feeling. You'll be chas you chased that your whole life. Jen Brown: That's right. That's right. That sounds like purpose coming to life right there, Hugo. Hugo Rodriguez: Yeah. Yeah. Well let me tell you, like my my my level of just in incredible commitment and purpose around around not just this trip, but around teaching leadership, around being part of the mission at Hampton City College is like off the charts. This You know, we you and I talk about finding your purpose, and and I think we both found it for many years in the Foreign Service. We had a mission set that gave us meaning and we fully committed to that, right? That was just an amazing, amazing opportunity and an amazing experience for me to find something that I love as deeply as that here in my like third quarter. is just such a joy. And I'm deeply indebted to the folks at the college for giving me the opportunity to do this. I cannot express enough my and my debt to Vinton for taking me along on this like to take a newbie into the backwoods the way he did and to be so generous with his time and his experience, his incredible patience. Not just with the guys, but with me. I mean, it's just extraordinary. And to get that to get that opportunity at this point in my life, I'm just I'm blessed. I'm so incredibly blessed and and jazzed and cannot wait to to see what these young men do with that and to get back to classes this fall. It's a couple of weeks from now. Jen Brown: That's right. That is right. Such a powerful story. Thank you for sharing these, your experience, these lessons. What would you say is the takeaway that you want our listeners, our viewers to really take to heart? Hugo Rodriguez: there's a couple, right? and and I'll I'll start with the personal one, which is like you are never too old to learn new things. Like jump in with both feet. And I'm not just talking about learning how to how to backpack in the wilderness, but you've probably heard me say for years, like I could never be a college professor. It takes kind of confronting that. So fear of the unknown and jumping in to you know find find your calling, right? And I feel like I'm a little it's a little bit late to say I found my calling. After 25 years of doing something I love, which really was my calling, I've found another one. So you can't be afraid to pivot and to try something new, right? That would be the first thing. The second thing I would say is like you learn leadership by doing. Right? Never forget that leadership is trial and error. And we can read all the books and we can talk about all the frameworks and the models. And I think those are useful. But you kind of have to step into it and learn it by what works and also learn it by what doesn't work. And it and the best lessons and the lessons I think these guys learned most deeply came from the things they tried that didn't work. And then regrouping. storming, hashing it out, learning from each other and trying something new. And that in a in a nutshell, I think, is how I learned leadership, right? I didn't learn it from a book and I didn't learn it by myself. I learned it with you. And I learned it with my teams. And I learned it by being humble and being able to say, you know, I yeah, I could have done better there. And I would welcome your insights on how I can do better, right? That That willingness to keep failing and keep standing up and dusting yourself off and asking for help, I think that is the the key to learning meaningful servant leadership. So those are the two things I took away from it. This was a tremendous experience. I hope I have the opportunity to do something again like this. but it doesn't, you don't have to learn leadership in the sawtooth wilderness. You just need to, you know. Tighten your belt and go after it and not be afraid to fail. just end by saying how proud I am of these guys. If they ever see this this podcast, and I hope they will, just know that they have my admiration for what they went through and how how well they shouldered that burden and carried it forward. And you know, it gives me it gives me hope for the future, right? Like these are the guys Jen Brown: Yeah. Hugo Rodriguez: who are gonna lead our communities and they're up to the task. So thank you. I I love this conversation. I Jen Brown: I love Hugo Rodriguez: really appreciate you. Jen Brown: I do as well. Thank you so much.