"Sorry dude, I don't remember you being on my aircraft."
United States


00:00:05revisionist history is brought to you by ziprecruiter this show is about things that have been overlooked missed or possibly misunderstood hiring can be the same way but ziprecruiter set to change things so that doesn't happen and my listeners can try it for free right now at ziprecruiter dot
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00:00:44home we discover how fun cooking can be while reducing food waste and supporting sustainable farms and fisheries is it blue apron dot com slash bad well to get your first three meals free a thirty dollar value on the evening of March twenty six two thousand and thirteen Brian
00:01:04Williams appeared on late night with David Letterman were very happy to have this man the weather's see is the Emmy and Peabody Award winning anchor and managing editor of the NBC nightly news latest gentleman here is our good friend Brian Williams Mister Williams Brian Williams looks like a
00:01:23TV anchor he has one of those rectangular super handsome made for television heads maybe two sizes larger than normal like he inflates it with a bicycle pump before it goes on camera and he's charming very charming congratulations twenty years at NBC news thank you very much the young
00:01:47man tell me William sits down next to letterman and the two of them chit chat and tell jokes there had been some big kerfuffle about the today show involving Matt Lauer and letterman tries and fails to bait millions into saying something juicy about it our stuff now if
00:02:03I'm on to something blink twice then letterman asked the question that will destroy Brian Williams career tell me %HESITATION and if I knew this I forgot it and if I forgot and I'm ashamed of something happened ten years ago in Iraq tell people what that occur %HESITATION I
00:02:22brought a photo which arrived in my email two mornings ago of where I was tonight a decade ago this very day this very day my name is Malcolm Gladwell you listening to revisionist history my podcast about things for gotten misunderstood this episode is part two of my exploration
00:02:47of memory and are naive ideas about what memory is worse if you haven't heard the previous episode you should listen to it first is the story of an early morning raid on a **** hide out in Munich a raid that involved a world class harmonica player and a
00:03:07dashing Lee had some undercover spy the lesson of that story is that only a fool except the evidence of his own memory as gospel the lesson of this story is were awful %HESITATION this was %HESITATION me ten years ago and a young command sergeant major %HESITATION I was
00:03:29in Iraq now a couple of caveats here %HESITATION as war correspondents go I am the herbs mandrake of war correspondents I am I'm not terribly good at it it is not what I do full time I am mostly New York based I do go cover these two wars
00:03:46we've been fighting and when I do I like to go out on patrol I'd like to get out in it right we were in a some helicopters we were going to drop some bridge portions across the Euphrates so the third infantry could cross on them %HESITATION two of
00:04:00our four helicopters were hit by ground fire including the one I was in RPG and an HK forty seven what what as you may remember the helicopter Brian Williams was writing was not in fact hit by ground fire Williams was miles away in another aircraft entirely when the
00:04:18attack happened one of the most respected network news anchors went on late night TV tell a story about his near death experience and it turned out not to be true for what happens the many everybody realizes you've been hit %HESITATION we figure out how to land safely and
00:04:36we did we landed very quickly and hard and we put down and we were stock for birds in the middle of the desert and we wore north out ahead of the other Americans hold my hand as as a as a guy as a journalist what what do you
00:04:52think this is a great position to be in our holy crap I gotta get out of high more toward the holy crap this is what we know for certain about the case of Brian Williams and the helicopter calling Brian Williams is back in Kuwait City tonight after a
00:05:16close call in the skies over Iraq brand tell us about what you got yourself into well in the end Tom it did give us a glimpse of just after the US invasion of Iraq began in the spring of two thousand and three Williams filed a report for NBC
00:05:30news from the field he described how he'd been embedded with a convoy of four chinook helicopters flying out of Kuwait City they were carrying bridge components so that the US army troops could cross the Euphrates this is Williams reporting March twenty six two thousand and three on the
00:05:48ground we learned the chinook ahead of us was almost blown out of the sky that hole was made by a rocket propelled grenade or RPG as Williams describes it all four helicopters ended up on the desert floor there was a massive sandstorm they were trapped there for three
00:06:07harrowing days the main invading force was still miles away what we didn't know was we were north of the invasion we were the northern most Americans in Iraq Williams is account is included in a book published by NBC shortly after four years later he tells it again in
00:06:26a blog post written after the death of a retired general who was in the helicopter with him only this time Williams uses a vague sense there was small arms fire in a later blog post in two thousand and eight he's more explicit all four of our low flying
00:06:43Chinooks took fire we were forced down and stay down then let him in two thousand thirteen Brian Williams fateful appearance so we got hit we set down everyone was okay our captain took a Purple Heart injury to his ear in the cockpit %HESITATION but we were alone they
00:07:01started distributing weapons we heard a noise and it was Bradley fighting vehicles and Abrams tanks coming they happened to spot us this was the invasion of the U. S. invasion they saw us suddenly a story that Williams has been telling in bits and pieces gets told in the
00:07:20spotlight of late night TV who sees it lance Reynolds the flight engineer on the helicopter that got hit Reynolds responds on NBC's Facebook page sorry dude I don't remember you being on the aircraft I do remember you walking up about an hour after we had landed to ask
00:07:39me what happened one by one the members of the flight crews involved come forward to say the same thing and then the skin tell me do you know where Brian Williams was at the moment they your helicopter was hit by the RPG that's Brian Stelter CNN interviewing done
00:07:58hell is the pilot of the lead helicopter well we had a lot going on but %HESITATION I am pretty sure he was not in our flight at all then still to talk to the pilot of the helicopter that Williams was on his name is Alan Kelly is a
00:08:11right to say that Brian Williams is a board your helicopter and not aboard the helicopter that was shot at in a rock that day that's correct he was aboard my aircraft that %HESITATION day in March what was your aircraft doing then was it ever within sight of this
00:08:26enough that was shot at is far as the chinook from back when it was shot down we were not within visual range of them so what sort of distance was there between your helicopter with Brian Williams aboard and the helicopter that did take fire show initial we're probably
00:08:41a half hour behind them June every pundit under the sun is wagging a disdainful finger don Imus tell me where you think that like all remember whether or not you to play that gets hit I I can you not remember that remember getting punched in the face and
00:08:59in the fourth grade Rosie o'donnell I think you would know if you were in a helicopter that was actually hit by a missile so I don't think she didn't remember that I think he fabricated that story John Stewart because the case here infotainment confusion syndrome occurs when the
00:09:17celebrity cortex gets its wires crossed the Madura anchor dollar even would be Goldberg when he first told the story he told the story as it happens every time he told it again it got more exciting it was war there's always more that and by the time he was
00:09:35finished he was on a helicopter right it's it's stolen valor you can get a red sauce if you impersonators soldiers that you were in combat you can actually get arrested and charged and put in jail for doing just what he did or not he's reprehensible is disgusting and
00:09:54like it is all lined collar he's been telling this story for twelve years this goes on for months NBC suspends him six months without pay culminating with the public penance on the today show Matt Lauer in need of your seat what have these past five months been like
00:10:12for you %HESITATION it has been %HESITATION torture for now maybe you don't care about Brian Williams a lot has happened since the scandal certainly has a nightly show on MSNBC at eleven eastern he's going to be fine in the grand scheme of things what does it matter well
00:10:40it matters because of what the case exposes about our understanding of memory Brian Williams remembered a traumatic event one way then a couple of years later he started remembering that same event a different way and the assumption of virtually everyone who weighed in on the case was this
00:10:57if someone changes their original story then they must be lying that the change must be deliberate and self aggrandizing everyone assumes memory is a kind of time stamped video of what happened in your life and that if you contradict the evidence of the video you're up to no
00:11:14good I'm sorry that's insane free Brian Williams and now a brief word from one of our sponsors ziprecruiter like a lot of Star Wars fans I'm a little obsessed with the questionable quality of Darth Vader's stormtroopers I mean here they are an elite fighting force trying to keep
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00:12:41smuggler you need ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire in the whole galaxy I know my listeners can try ziprecruiter for free at zip recruiter dot com slash Gladwell that's zip cruder dot com slash glad I'll be honest after a hard day's work revising history my producer Jake but
00:13:08I like a glass of wine or two chairs but here's the thing I don't know a thing about one I'm Canadian I was raised on beer and Tim Hortons donuts Jacobs twenty seven a millennial he was drinking wine out of a box until like last week for all
00:13:25I know he still lives this parents basement I moved out so we have a class in a close battle well there's a terrible but then we discovered the blue apron has come out with a line plan your own sommelier six bottles a month specially chosen to complement your
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00:14:01a secret does not only for the Jews in Europe butchering Chardonnay Burgundy that's Teheran's this wide so good I can't read the label ladies and gentlemen if you want to live as large as me and Jacob check out this week's menu and get your first three meals free
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00:14:39your own to tear secrete does at least we know it's a white I'm gonna ask users to questions about the morning of September eleventh two thousand one I'm talking with my friend Dee Dee Gordon I've known her forever how did you first learn about the attack on the
00:15:01towers from I had just taking my dogs out for a walk and I had bought the New York Post The New York Times I remember Paris Hilton was on the cover the New York Post I think and dumb I want and I you know took my walk around
00:15:23the block and I came up to my apartment and I was like sitting on my counter reading the newspapers and I saw all these people standing out on Hudson street staring up in the middle of the street and so I pope might have the head out the window
00:15:45I couldn't really see what was going on and then I turned on the television and %HESITATION you know saw what was happening what did you do next I went up and yeah I either call to our went up to your apartment I can't remember was one of the
00:16:06it was one of two things either I think I called you I think I caution Europe centers Dee Dee Gordon I used to live in the same building in the west village above a bodega whenever she came up to see me she would sing the theme song from
00:16:21the sick on three's company common not gonna do what you call me before you went out on the street or after you in a street I called you before who did I ended I I picked up you did and I was like you need to look out your
00:16:37window and you did you turn on the news did you see me that morning or did you leave before I came to know where we start other and you were like well I gotta go fly some place today and I remember I said to you I go what
00:16:53in nine of the airports are closer like all I guess I'll leave tomorrow morning and I said all like you can get on a plane like I thought you were crazy and you said Gordon this is the safest time to fly remember that you know list all your
00:17:13memory for this stuff is kind of phenomenal %HESITATION how certain are you about all of those memories you just told me how certain are mine yeah I'm pretty certain now let me ask you the same questions I was just asking DD how did you first learn about what
00:17:35happened on nine eleven where were you what were you doing how did you feel when you first became aware of the attack who was the first person you talked to about the attack what were you doing immediately before you became aware of it I'm going to guess that
00:17:50many of you can answer everyone of those questions maybe not with the same specificity is TV because she has an amazing memory but you can tell me where you were when you heard the news I wasn't that he called me I went down the Hudson strait and stirred
00:18:07the crowd watching the twin towers burn they went down to a little coffee shop around the corner from my house and sat there with a Cup of tea in numb silence nine eleven is what's called a flash bulb event a big dramatic incident that Sears itself into our
00:18:26memories and as a whole sub specialty in psychology devoted to the study of flashbulb memories you ask someone where they were right after something dramatic or historic happened then you come back to the months or years later and ask them again and measure how accurate the memories are
00:18:45there have been countless studies like this over the years one was done after the death of princess di another after the resignation of Margaret Thatcher the challenger explosion the fall of the Berlin Wall the election of Barack Obama the OJ Simpson verdict not surprisingly there was one done
00:19:02after nine eleven as well so nine eleven happened and %HESITATION I got together with a former student of mine at NYU Liz Phelps the nine eleven project was headed by bill Hirst from the new school and Liz Phelps at New York University I went to see her first
00:19:21me told me that he and Phelps had come up with the idea over dinner on September twelfth in a restaurant close enough to the towers that you could smell the smoke her says that he and Phelps realized they could do the mother of all flash bulbs studies so
00:19:37the next day they reached out to colleagues around the country Boston new haven New York washing DC St Louis Palo alto in Santa Cruz a total of three thousand two hundred and forty six subjects asked the same questions I just asked you where were you who you with
00:19:55how did you feel the participants were asked the same questions a year later and two years later and finally on the tenth anniversary of the attack in twenty eleven so what did the researchers find well first everyone knows where they were when they heard the towers fell just
00:20:16like me and DD it's burned into memory but are those memories accurate no they're not especially in the first year after a flashbulb event all kinds of discrepancies creep in one of the respondents first said she was in the kitchen making breakfast when she heard about the attack
00:20:35a year later she swore she was in the laundry room folding her clothes another said in two thousand and one that you saw the attack while watching the today show a year later she was convinced that a girl in her dorm and rushed into her room and told
00:20:51soon he would look at these kinds of %HESITATION inaccuracies inconsistencies a creep into how large is the variability among the subjects that is to say do we have some who get everything wrong in retrospect and some now having right now I would say that the variability is fairly
00:21:08small some people get everything right some people get more wrong but it's it's not a huge variability Hearst finds on average a sixty percent decline in memory consistency meaning sixty percent of the answers changed over time you would think that everything about nine eleven would be seared into
00:21:30our minds one of the most dramatic days of our generation but everything is not second thing even more crucial are we aware that our memories of nine eleven are flawed no we're not our confidence in the accuracy of my memories of that day is sky high the super
00:21:50high yeah and why walk me it means of a dumb question but walk me through why are they so high her says nine eleven is like a death in the family we feel we have a responsibility to remember if you had only vague memories of where you were
00:22:05when you found out your mother died well I would think like what kind of person are you how could you not remember that our new Yorkers confidence levels higher everybody's confidence level so high it's so it's so hard to differentiate began to yeah we're all absolutely sure about
00:22:24what happened to us on nine eleven my friend did he can talk about that morning just as if it were yesterday and I will swear on a stack of bibles that you called me on the phone and then I ran downstairs and then eventually ended up sitting numb
00:22:37and alone in a coffee shop and yet it is almost certainly the case that we are wrong on at least half of those details it did not happen that way her says that the participants in flash bulbs studies refused to accept this fact they will not admit that
00:22:54the memories are wrong take the flash bulbs study done after the explosion of the challenger space shuttle in nineteen eighty six the psychologist in charge sat down with people months later and showed them how differently they describe things right after the disaster he showed them what they actually
00:23:12wrote he says it is it their hand writing %HESITATION and %HESITATION they say yes but I don't know why I wrote that because it's wrong I you know I agree it's my handwriting I agree I must've written that but I don't know why I might because I clearly
00:23:27remember it I was in the dorm even though this piece of paper says I was in the cafeteria so this overwhelming confidence that people have now why are we so adamant on the subject of memory because remember the fundamentalists we think our memory is a camera recording our
00:23:47life in real time with the video time stamped and stored for later retrieval it's not like memory is when you remember something you retrieving it and it remains absolutely stable and then you put it in the foot lights of your consciousness it's it's more that when you retrieve
00:24:03it is open up to the possibility of change every time we retrieve a memory in other words there's a chance you can get contaminated we hear some new details somewhere about the event without realizing it we just added in many researchers talk a lot about what they call
00:24:20time slice airs a couple of things happen in the same general time frame and we get the sequence all jumbled up did he says she and I talked in person that morning of nine eleven I have no recollection of it but she does I'm almost positive respect inside
00:24:37the apartment yeah yeah and then I really said I was getting on a plane the next day oh yeah and you were like kind of cocky about it too you're like you kind of look to me like Gordon stop being so neurotic in your like don't you know
00:24:55this is the safest time to get on an airplane is when something like this happens to be I can be really quick question turns out it's my favorite thing about you I decided to do a little fact checking I still have my date books from two thousand and
00:25:10one I'm pretty meticulous about keeping track of my travel and I did not have an airplane trip planned for September twelfth now maybe I'm mistaken maybe duties right but according to my records I flew to Montreal on September nineteenth eight days later I think our conversation about flights
00:25:31must've been right before that trip why would I say it's the safest time to fly on the morning of nine eleven that's something you would only say after the airport's had reopened with much tighter security I think getting the time slicing at some point she mistakenly a move
00:25:50that memory to the morning of nine eleven because it seems plausible that we would have talked about planes that morning now does that make DD a liar she working some self promoting angle these are the most honest people I've ever met she simply did what human beings do
00:26:08when it comes to traumatic events there is our memory and there is the truth and the two are not the same okay so what if it's not nine eleven what if it's a couple years later at the very beginning of the Iraq war what if I'm in a
00:26:24convoy of helicopters deep in enemy territory scared out of my wits and the helicopter had me get hit and I'm a reporter and I interview lots of people that day about what happened and retell the story so many times that their details become my details and I start
00:26:41to think that it was my helicopters that got hit when I read your paper the first person to cannibalize Brian Williams yes yes didn't he just committed Nick incredibly normal human yes that was my view %HESITATION and was the view of most of the people in the memory
00:27:02feel that I know of you are of the mind that he genuinely believed the story as he told it yes now do you see Brian Williams predicament everyone thinks he's lying in order to paint himself as some heroic war correspondent but he doesn't think he's lying he honestly
00:27:23believes he was in the lead helicopter with the same confidence we all have in our flashbulb memories did he remember as plain as day that I was catching a flight on September twelfth people in flash bulbs studies look at their own handwriting from years earlier and say that
00:27:39can't be right that's not how I remember it then on Thursday NBC news announced that Brian Williams a twenty two year veteran of this network would not be returning as the anchor of NBC nightly news he steps down when Brian Williams does his penance on the today show
00:27:55in mid two thousand and thirteen he and Matt Lauer go around and around in circles I told the story correctly for years before I told it incorrectly I was not trying to mislead people that to me is a huge difference here but Matt Lauer is having none of
00:28:15it I worried as you say this Brian that people who are going to listen to your apology on air and in other areas Facebook and stars and stripes who heard you use words like conflated aircraft or or made mistakes with my memory of certain things are now going
00:28:31to hear what you're saying now and they're gonna saying he still saying he didn't intend to mislead people and yet he didn't tell the truth and he had to know is the guy who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth he had to know as the
00:28:46guy who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth no that's a hundred percent wrong what should Matt Lauer have said he should have said Brian memory is fallible you're a public figure for goodness sake the next time you go on national TV to tell a war
00:29:04story go back and check to see if your story is accurate but our doesn't say that the today show interview was billed as tough minded uncompromising journalism it was actually the opposite an interrogation about memory conducted by someone who hasn't the slightest clue how memories work and what
00:29:22is Brian Williams supposed to do he is no defense all they can do is to base themselves I understand that this came from clearly a bad place a bad urge inside me this was clearly ego driven that desire to better my role in a story I was already
00:29:47in that's what I've been tearing apart and unpacking this comes from clearly a bad place once again wrong it comes from the most human of places and Matt Lauer Matt Lauer for heaven's sake puts on the hi hat several days after you told the story a nightly news
00:30:11you went on the air and you apologized and I just said you use terms like I'm mistaken I was mistaken in my recollections did you give thought at the time to going on the air and saying I live Matt Lauer by the way had an entire staff whose
00:30:29job it was to prepare him for interviews this research on memory is not a secret bill Hurst is at the new school on fourteenth street and Fifth Avenue in Manhattan Hearst coal waterless Phelps is it and why you down the street from Rockefeller Center with the today show
00:30:46is taped two of the world's leading experts on memory are for subway stops away on the DOD trains but a nice day Lauer could've walked it how hard is this not to put words in your mouth but had you going on the air that night and say folks
00:31:02I lied and I'm sorry do you think the outcome would have been different do you think forgiveness would have come so except he didn't live lying in this instance would be Brian Williams pretending that he deliberately made up that story so Matt Lauer is saying that he would
00:31:19rather Williams had lied and confessed that he lied rather than having told the truth that he honestly thought he was telling the truth the council of cardinals could not make sense of the moral logic of that by the way it's worth noting that the whole Brian Williams saga
00:31:39is a case study in memory failure CNN's Brian Stelter interviews don Alice the pilot of the helicopter the got shot down yes tell us when he first heard Brian Williams mis characterizing what happened and hello says oh a few weeks later when I got back to Kuwait meaning
00:31:58in two thousand and three this is this is crucial Mr house because according to the time one that we've been looking out for the past several days it wasn't until about two thousand seven the Brian Williams began to embellish the story about being actually nearby or even on
00:32:13the chopper that was struck by the RPG you're saying you heard it on television in two thousand three well I'm saying I heard on the internet that was an interview of her on the internet video of the television segment yeah yes Stelter is way too nice to say
00:32:30it but hell this can't be right his recollection is off by four years and does he realize how badly he's missed remember the dates no he's adamant then another man comes forward the pilot of William's helicopter and claims they did take small arms fire goes on CNN add
00:32:53some gossipy details then a day later the pilot takes it all back quote the information I gave you was true based on my memories but at this point I'm questioning my memories which might be the first self aware thing said by anyone during this whole sorry affair in
00:33:14the Brian Williams case everyone was allowed to have a bad memory except Brian Williams search the hardline him but I do think it is he was treated very unfairly was I think absolutely I will I'm waiting to see the formation of cognitive psychologists for Brian Williams says that
00:33:32a lobby group I was thinking of doing I felt so sorry for him and thanks for doing this for us thank you for doing this run in and thank you everybody for coming not long ago after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke I went to a talk in Manhattan
00:34:00at the ninety second street Y. it was a conversation between rose McGowan who was the first actress to go on the record with accusations against Weinstein and run in Farah who wrote the definitive devastating account of the wind sting case for The New Yorker magazine it was a
00:34:16fascinating and sometimes strange evening McAllen speaks in a kind of political poetry is not always obvious what she means Farrow was a lawyer before he turned to journalism his rigorous I enough when asked me if you were in our office who would you be it would be reckless
00:34:40curtains I would be the curtain you're not the man behind the curtain you are the court I am the curtain the curtains very pretty guess he's kicked the side nobody really notices the curtain appreciative that it's their parties politicized and stuff but it absorbs everything from both sides
00:34:59from this side presentational it looks so great see right this is the curtain that you see from the backside you see everything too but nobody knows this card the curtains taking notes we're going to someone who requires an interpreter and there was one moment that really struck me
00:35:18when Farrow talked about what being an interpreter meant he was trying to get people at NBC where he worked at the time to take McAllen's accusations seriously I spent a year listening to a lot of powerful men call these women who were relating the worst experiences of a
00:35:40lifetime crazy call them unstable call them unreliable narrators on and a lot worse things that I will repeat on the stage you know that was something that was lobbed at your story countless times I sat in rooms and defended the fact that that on the record testimony from
00:35:59you matter and what used to people I can be safe a few minutes later the two of them start talking about what it takes for a story like McAllen's to break through all the skepticism and indifference for I think when women come forward individually and they do a
00:36:15blog post for a social media post and tell their story that's great if the question is it's not incumbent on reporters to do right by that and the best way to do justice I think to any person coming forward with a difficult story is to interrogate it as
00:36:28thoroughly as possible and you know lend credence where it's due one of the battle cries of the fight against sexual predation has been believe the women notice that's not what I was saying he did he says the best way to do justice to any person coming forward with
00:36:51a difficult story is to interrogated as thoroughly as possible and lend credence where it's due vero didn't believe rose McGowan feral listened to rose McGowan he took her seriously that's what memory demands what if rose McGowan had said that she'd been assaulted by wind staying in a hotel
00:37:13room in Paris it turned out to have been in London and she said it happened in March it turned out to be July can you imagine her on the today show twisting and turning as she tries to defend that lapse in memory to Matt Lauer you said you
00:37:29were in Paris you were miles away in London you had to know was the woman who lived through those experiences that it wasn't the truth but remembering yourself in one place when you were actually in another does not mean that you're lying it just means that uncovering the
00:37:46truth requires an understanding of what memory can and cannot do if we don't get the small cases right the Brian Williams cases we're going to be helpless the big cases looking back it had to have been ego that made me think I had to be sharper funnier %HESITATION
00:38:10%HESITATION than anybody else put myself closer to the action having band at the action in the beginning %HESITATION please stop apologizing for a crime you didn't commit free Brian Williams revisionist history dependably production a senior producer his meal a bell with Jacob Smith and Camille Baptiste our editor
00:38:47is Julia part one Williams is our engineer fact checking by Beth Johnson original music but we scare a special thanks to Andy Bowers and take place I met so what's interesting is so I'm sure you called me and you're sure you called me but there is a way
00:39:20I'm almost a hundred percent positive I called you and I am because I am too but there is a chance that you didn't call me there isn't a chance because I know I caught you I know you called me too but I know I know it's incredibly hard
00:39:33to do it but it's like there's a chance he didn't meet this chance to not to my door that you know but thinking about did I really not going to store because I respected your privacy as you respected mine and I would have never just want went up
00:39:48to knock on your door just in case you have like a lady up there or something so in respect for that I would have probably called you first is not even any not even if like the twin towers are smoking on you know I would have not walked
00:40:02upstairs to interrupt your your intimate moment with a lady friend even if the twin towers were on fire but can clear that in your broadcast the non stick around for just another moment to hear about another penalty show I think you'll like Hey there I'm Gabby done the
00:40:41host of another panoply podcast called bad with money like revisionist history bad with money examines big issues that people don't like talking about we looked at the foundations of the gender pay gap and how structural racism has altered the wealth of tons of Americans and what life might
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