Full Transcript for Finding the Fire: Shannon Flanagan on Retail, Resilience and Career Purpose

00:05:21.769 So that's the first pivotal moment is that it inspired me to become a change practitioner. 00:05:21.769 --> 00:05:27.769 So the rest of my career, I think, has followed suit with that drive and passion and frankly skills. 00:05:27.769 --> 00:05:36.329 Now, fast forward to another pivotal moment, which is more a WTF moment, which is I had been in retail. 00:05:36.329 --> 00:05:39.210 So I'd gone into consulting, I went back into retail. 00:05:39.210 --> 00:05:44.090 I was with Gap Bank, then I was with Land Zend and Macy's, and then back to Gap Bank. 00:05:44.090 --> 00:05:52.250 And frankly, I got tired of solving the retail problems like vendor managed inventory, which just didn't seem to die as an initiative. 00:05:52.250 --> 00:06:01.210 So I decided to try my hand at sales because I wanted um business development, I wanted technology experience, failed miserably. 00:06:01.210 --> 00:06:05.850 Um, and ended that year with the what did I just do to my career? 00:06:05.850 --> 00:06:13.689 Now, if you're smart, so lessons to you students that you can have these times in your career that you're like, that was a waste, or I didn't learn anything. 00:06:13.689 --> 00:06:18.250 I could not have done the jobs I did later without that experience. 00:06:18.250 --> 00:06:30.170 Uh and then the big pivotal moment was to um accelerate my retirement plan to run a nonprofit and and share stories of of people in the world that we live in. 00:06:30.170 --> 00:06:46.009 So decided to go all in last year and uh build the nonprofit that is retail women in tech and write a um book about the stories of women in our industry and those of us who are choosing, not chasing our career and doing the work that we love. 00:06:48.250 --> 00:06:50.970 Is retail something you always wanted to do? 00:06:51.530 --> 00:06:52.569 Oh no, no, no. 00:06:52.569 --> 00:06:54.090 So I was gonna be a lawyer. 00:06:54.090 --> 00:06:58.250 Uh thank God that was not the path I took. 00:06:58.250 --> 00:07:02.410 So I got into stores working at a department store at age 18. 00:07:02.410 --> 00:07:06.009 I do have a moment that I was merchandising a gooseneck. 00:07:06.009 --> 00:07:07.610 Do you know what a gooseneck is? 00:07:07.610 --> 00:07:09.129 Does anybody know G Rich? 00:07:09.129 --> 00:07:10.490 Do you remember that language? 00:07:10.490 --> 00:07:11.129 I don't even know. 00:07:11.129 --> 00:07:13.210 Like piece of a tea stand or a forestand. 00:07:13.210 --> 00:07:18.970 Yeah, for tea stand or a four-way, and it's the thing that sticks up on top of it and you put an outfit on top. 00:07:18.970 --> 00:07:22.889 And I remembered that moment, I was like, oh my God, I love merchandising product. 00:07:22.889 --> 00:07:24.410 And I was in the juniors department. 00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:33.370 I had the opportunity to go into corporate while I was in college in a part-time executive role where I was working with the luggage department and getting to go out into stores. 00:07:33.370 --> 00:07:35.210 And I was a history major. 00:07:35.210 --> 00:07:42.009 So again, law was my path, but I was offered the opportunity to go into their executive training program. 00:07:42.009 --> 00:07:43.370 And thank goodness I did. 00:07:43.370 --> 00:07:48.250 I can't imagine loving another industry um better or actually thriving. 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:49.689 You mentioned history. 00:07:49.689 --> 00:07:51.210 Did you get a major in history? 00:07:51.210 --> 00:07:52.090 I did. 00:07:52.090 --> 00:07:53.850 Like for reason. 00:07:54.090 --> 00:07:58.090 Well, and I will tell you, Rich, I did not know the value of that. 00:07:58.090 --> 00:08:06.810 It was not until, I don't know, maybe maybe 10, 12 years ago, how much I realized it played into the work that I did. 00:08:06.810 --> 00:08:16.250 So as somebody who's led strategic transformations, right, that's kind of my like core space that I've done is that it's about building uh a narrative. 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:24.730 And I hate using that word, it's kind of overused, but telling the story as to why the change matters and to inspire people to do that. 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:26.250 Well, what do historians do? 00:08:26.250 --> 00:08:35.610 They go and they take all of these different data points, right, and create a point of view and kind of a recommendation of um where the world is and where it needs to go. 00:08:35.610 --> 00:08:42.490 So I think the degree has been very beneficial to me and and my career and wouldn't change a fruit tea in China. 00:08:42.490 --> 00:08:45.929 So my advice to students study what you love. 00:08:45.929 --> 00:08:47.610 Don't study to get a job. 00:08:47.610 --> 00:08:50.250 Study to do what you what you're passionate about. 00:08:50.250 --> 00:08:51.769 Cause then your grades go up, dude. 00:08:51.769 --> 00:08:52.809 Well, that is true. 00:08:52.809 --> 00:08:55.689 For a semester, failure. 00:08:55.689 --> 00:08:58.490 But did history and graduated Magna Fumel. 00:08:58.490 --> 00:09:01.929 What's the challenge or setback that taught you something lasting? 00:09:01.929 --> 00:09:05.210 You guys are giving me all questions that were not on the sheet. 00:09:05.210 --> 00:09:06.569 My layoffs. 00:09:06.569 --> 00:09:16.649 So I recognized um about a year ago that I was like, oh my goodness, after having an incredibly successful career for almost 20 years, that I had four layoffs in a row. 00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:18.250 Two of which made total sense. 00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:20.970 One was the sales role, one was due to COVID, right? 00:09:20.970 --> 00:09:22.810 There was no business and retail. 00:09:22.810 --> 00:09:25.850 But two were heart-wrenching, in particular the first. 00:09:25.850 --> 00:09:28.730 But I would not be doing what I'm doing today. 00:09:28.730 --> 00:09:32.169 The book would not have happened without that experience. 00:09:32.169 --> 00:09:39.129 The personal life that I chose to lead as a result of that would not have

happened without that challenge of rejection. 00:09:39.450 --> 00:09:39.690 All right. 00:09:39.690 --> 00:09:52.730 So I want to lean in on that a little bit because in five minutes, what we discovered is the degree you got wasn't necessarily structured around the career you have, but that's okay. 00:09:52.730 --> 00:10:04.169 You are openly talking about four layoffs, which our generation was trained not to talk about those things. 00:10:04.169 --> 00:10:08.009 We are not supposed to show our emotions on our sleeves. 00:10:08.009 --> 00:10:17.129 We're not supposed to show fallibility and anything that may be perceived as weakness, but you're talking about it in a very positive way. 00:10:17.129 --> 00:10:22.169 What was that moment and how is that fueling you now? 00:10:22.169 --> 00:10:27.930 And you you answered it, but I guess I want to dive into a little bit deeper because I've I've had a similar journey. 00:10:27.930 --> 00:10:29.529 So I'm very curious to hear yours. 00:10:29.930 --> 00:10:35.850 This is something that with our interns we talk a lot about because it is perceived in our society as failure. 00:10:35.850 --> 00:10:38.649 I would argue it's our greatest times of growth. 00:10:38.649 --> 00:10:41.930 And because what ends up, you're forced to change. 00:10:41.930 --> 00:10:56.490 And you have to think hard around why were the reasons that were maybe valid, but you also, I think it made me dug deep to believe in the things that I could bring to the table and why it was about fit, not skills and capabilities necessarily, right? 00:10:56.490 --> 00:11:04.730 So you will have times, and there's somebody who told me many years ago about leadership is that you know, you can't, it's oh God, let's see if I can come up with it. 00:11:04.730 --> 00:11:10.730 I'm not gonna remember his formula, but as great as you are, it doesn't matter if it's not the right fit. 00:11:10.730 --> 00:11:13.450 It could be the wrong leader, it could be the wrong time. 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:16.330 And so I think those moments had made me pause. 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:19.450 Like two of them, like, yeah, no-brainer, didn't hurt my feelings at all. 00:11:19.450 --> 00:11:23.049 And the ones that did, I had to dig deep as to why that was the case. 00:11:23.049 --> 00:11:29.690 And it often came down because I had a personal relationship with somebody that I felt like there was a violation of trust. 00:11:29.690 --> 00:11:39.289 Uh, digging deep into both and separating what were my capabilities that I still know and I believe to be true, and then what was maybe the personal aspect. 00:11:39.289 --> 00:11:57.930 And then I will close, and it's something that's a big part of the book is we don't honor these transitional moments in our life where we have a disruption, an unexpected one, and we want to rush through to solving for that moment versus pausing and going, What did I learn? 00:11:57.930 --> 00:12:03.450 Let me sit with this and let me grow in this space in between the moments. 00:12:03.850 --> 00:12:09.129 I'm gonna go a little bit further, but I warned you this is going to happen. 00:12:09.129 --> 00:12:16.570 So if you want to take 20 minutes and get an espresso, and I can call uh Randy and tell him that you're the one holding up the conversation. 00:12:16.970 --> 00:12:18.730 Oh no, I mean, Rich, you and I can go. 00:12:18.730 --> 00:12:20.169 So, no, you go for it. 00:12:20.490 --> 00:12:34.409 What I'm interested in is there's obviously we want to learn more about your career and the things that you've learned, but you are hitting powerful lessons right from the beginning and you're wearing those openly. 00:12:34.409 --> 00:12:41.129 Was it gradual over time that you learn to accept those things that happened and draw energy from it? 00:12:41.129 --> 00:12:47.129 Or was there an epiphany at some point where there was just that shock to the system where you said, you know what? 00:12:47.129 --> 00:12:48.970 I've got to do this differently. 00:12:49.289 --> 00:12:49.930 Both. 00:12:49.930 --> 00:12:53.210 So the epiphany was the first layoff. 00:12:53.210 --> 00:12:56.009 I mean, I was completely blindsided. 00:12:56.009 --> 00:13:02.649 Uh, and what I took from that moment, now I had the luxury to do this because I had an incredible severance package. 00:13:02.649 --> 00:13:29.450 But I decided, as somebody who was the breadwinner, mother of three kids, you know, very successful climbing the corporate ladder, who was driven by to-dos, I made a very purposeful decision when that layoff happened to not create to-do lists and to live in the moment and really explore what this idea, and and I'm not a spiritual guru, but this idea of the of Zen, right? 00:13:29.450 --> 00:13:36.009 And digging deeper and really reflecting on what it was in my life and how I wanted to show up and what I needed. 00:13:36.009 --> 00:13:37.850 So that was an epiphany. 00:13:37.850 --> 00:13:44.570 Um, and that was a huge turning point that put me on the trajectory that that finds me where I am today. 00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:55.049 Where the slower burn is, is that it's taken me now a well, I guess about eight years since then to actually have the, I don't want to say confidence. 00:13:55.049 --> 00:14:02.330 I was gonna say a dirty word, but the conviction to go after doing what I believe I was I'm supposed to do. 00:14:02.330 --> 00:14:11.610 And that's been a slower commitment, like the slower realization I'd always felt like a uh square peg and a round hole, and I don't anymore. 00:14:11.610 --> 00:14:13.769 And God, does that feel amazing? 00:14:14.009 --> 00:14:14.570 I can imagine. 00:14:14.570 --> 00:14:17.850 So you're gonna tell me you were an original member of the imposter syndrome club. 00:14:18.090 --> 00:14:19.370 Oh no, oh no. 00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:22.409 So I will tell you, I wasn't even on to this thing. 00:14:22.409 --> 00:14:24.730 I've never felt like an imposter. 00:14:24.730 -->

00:14:25.450 Never. 00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:26.889 I was really confident. 00:14:26.889 --> 00:14:28.169 I knew what I was great at. 00:14:28.169 --> 00:14:42.970 Now, was I great at, was I great at reading the room and adjusting who I was for the audience and recognizing that maybe just always showing up as my true self was going to drive the the impact and outcomes I wanted. 00:14:42.970 --> 00:14:44.730 No, that's what I had to learn. 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:47.049 So, no, it was not imposter syndrome. 00:14:47.049 --> 00:14:49.769 Somebody shared with me comparison syndrome. 00:14:49.769 --> 00:14:52.730 And that's what has plagued me. 00:14:52.730 --> 00:15:01.690 That it was because every role, not every role, 95% of my roles since the beginning of my career have been brand new. 00:15:01.690 --> 00:15:07.529 And so I did not take a traditional path in the kind of roles I played in organizations. 00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:13.210 So I was measuring my success in terms of I'm not maybe climbing fast enough. 00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:18.570 I certainly want, I mean, I was a VP at 34, so I don't know what measurement I was playing that with. 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:21.049 But fast forward, I live in the Bay Area. 00:15:21.049 --> 00:15:33.210 I have friends that have retired at 45 who might not have had the glorious in careers in terms of impact and outcomes that those two words drive the kind of work that I that I do. 00:15:33.210 --> 00:15:47.529 Um, I also have been dealing with it uh pretty intensely, in particular this last summer, that now as a founder, I'm comparing myself to other founders and how many hours they work and what they're giving up to do that. 00:15:47.529 --> 00:15:58.490 I've compared myself financially, I've compared myself as it relates to titles, and I've compared myself now to hours equate to quality and impact. 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:00.250 And they not don't necessarily. 00:16:00.250 --> 00:16:05.769 So that's more the thing I deal with pretty regularly still. 00:16:06.169 --> 00:16:13.769 I I will admit it's the first time I I've heard that and and stripping away the the label because labels often get us into trouble. 00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:16.889 And instead just looking at the the comparison. 00:16:16.889 --> 00:16:30.490 I mean, if you look at consumerism and how it ramped up playing off history post-World War II, it was feeding off a comparison and saying, well, you don't have what the people next door have, what the Joneses have, and so you've got to keep up and take on all this debt. 00:16:30.490 --> 00:16:48.889 And I see this generation of consumers, and I think by influence, you and I buying less or buying smarter because we're realizing that comparing possessions or comparing degrees or comparing things like that isn't what's necessarily giving us happiness. 00:16:49.129 --> 00:16:54.409 And I think that comes to that point personally in this endeavor is recommitting. 00:16:54.409 --> 00:16:59.370 And we have to recommit to everything we do every day, our relationships, our choices, et cetera. 00:16:59.370 --> 00:17:01.529 But it was recommitting to values. 00:17:01.529 --> 00:17:09.289 So to the students out there in the world, I decided right out of college to prioritize balance in my life. 00:17:09.289 --> 00:17:15.609 But I grew up in a world where women were working their tissues off and the primary at home. 00:17:15.609 --> 00:17:22.970 And it's not to say we don't have that to some degree today, but it's definitely the balance is a little bit more equalized than it was. 00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:24.889 So I prioritize balance. 00:17:24.889 --> 00:17:25.930 And you know what that meant? 00:17:25.930 --> 00:17:28.250 I worked from 8 to 5, 5:30. 00:17:28.250 --> 00:17:31.849 I didn't open my laptop at night, I didn't open it on the weekends. 00:17:31.849 --> 00:17:38.889 And it's one of the big pieces of advice I give to up-and-coming rising uh stars like you, Judy, but also new parents. 00:17:38.889 --> 00:17:43.129 Because when you create boundaries, right, people do respect them. 00:17:43.129 --> 00:17:49.289 So I was able to have an incredibly successful career working 45, 50 hours a week. 00:17:49.289 --> 00:17:53.210 Now I'm a founder. 00:17:53.210 --> 00:17:53.930 And guess what? 00:17:53.930 --> 00:18:01.450 I started to do compare myself to the people who are working 15 hours a day, seven days a week. 00:18:01.450 --> 00:18:06.970 I now work from seven to six and on the weekends, I'm working the most I've ever worked. 00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:08.970 I now don't have boundaries. 00:18:08.970 --> 00:18:14.890 It's something that's caused some issues in my personal life because my family and my friends are like, you're not here, you're not present. 00:18:14.890 --> 00:18:18.650 And now I'm having to deal with figuring out the boundaries in this world. 00:18:18.650 --> 00:18:43.370 And what I realized is that by buying into the narrative that as a founder, I need to be working 15 hours a day, seven days a week, I was violating my values because my values are the diversity and the balance across all the things that drive us as a human being, which includes our family, our friends, our times for Gray's Anatomy. 00:18:43.370 --> 00:18:46.809 This is something I process and work through daily. 00:18:46.809 --> 00:18:53.210 But once I realized it was a violation of my values, it's become a lot easier to quiet that voice. 00:18:53.529 --> 00:18:55.609 And it it stifles innovation, I find. 00:18:55.609 --> 00:19:13.849 For the time that I stepped out of being a corporate executive and and leaned into having my own agency and taking on projects, I found myself not able to turn it off and just step away because I felt like I always had to be gunning, especially when I'm the one driving the income. 00:19:13.849 --> 00:19:15.210 If I'm not making the call. 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:21.769 So even if I was done by lunch and I had turned in what I needed to turn in,

I still felt compelled to do something. 00:19:21.769 --> 00:19:28.890 I have a friend of mine, by contrast, Judy, we interviewed him, and he owns an agency, owns a couple of companies. 00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:36.730 And when he hit a wall, he went traveling with his son to minor league baseball uh games across uh Central and South America. 00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:40.170 What it turned out was that he developed a passion for it. 00:19:40.170 --> 00:19:50.650 He was doing market research, and now he has ownership in several minor league teams, but it was through that break and that discovery that it led to innovation that sometimes we don't have. 00:19:51.049 --> 00:19:53.450 Well, and Rich, something that I still struggle with. 00:19:53.450 --> 00:19:55.130 So as much as I say this, right? 00:19:55.130 --> 00:19:58.650 So I've been able to work through the comparison part. 00:19:58.650 --> 00:20:07.849 What I'm still struggling with to this day is it is what I wake up and go to bed thinking about every single moment of my life. 00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:09.930 Now, I'm pretty good at shutting off. 00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:15.849 So last year I had the good fortune of traveling to 14 different cities, a couple of different countries. 00:20:15.849 --> 00:20:18.410 I turned 50, there was lots of celebrations. 00:20:18.410 --> 00:20:22.490 I spent time with my daughter and Rich with retail ROI in Honduras. 00:20:22.490 --> 00:20:26.250 But it is super hard, though, to create the space. 00:20:26.250 --> 00:20:29.049 And I'm telling you, I'm failing at it, is to go take a walk. 00:20:29.049 --> 00:20:34.410 But I absolutely 100% agree that we need the space for creativity. 00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:41.049 We need the space to be in nature to fuel our souls to be able to do this incredible work. 00:20:41.049 --> 00:20:50.970 So now that's my 2026 struggle and objective is to be able to give myself the grace for the space. 00:20:51.289 --> 00:21:04.009 So you have been involved with several retailers, you've been involved with consultants, you've done sales, you've worked with nonprofits in the past, you founded a nonprofit, you're writing a book. 00:21:04.009 --> 00:21:13.690 When you get involved with something, when you decide whether it's work or personal or passion or purpose, what are you looking for in that? 00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:18.170 What are you looking to achieve or get out of it before you say, you know what, I'm in? 00:21:18.730 --> 00:21:22.569 So it comes down to the why that I had at 25. 00:21:22.569 --> 00:21:26.329 I want to create the conditions for people to love what they do every day. 00:21:26.329 --> 00:21:31.769 You actually reminded me of this, which Judy, this is something to call out that I had forgotten. 00:21:31.769 --> 00:21:35.609 It's also around potential realization and actualization. 00:21:35.609 --> 00:21:40.410 Now, I I really focused in on that concept and that language earlier on. 00:21:40.410 --> 00:21:43.609 And I think then I decided it was, I didn't think I know. 00:21:43.609 --> 00:21:46.329 I decided that that's a bar that's super high. 00:21:46.329 --> 00:21:48.250 We never arrive, right? 00:21:48.250 --> 00:21:50.009 We're always on a journey. 00:21:50.009 --> 00:21:59.370 But when I look at both, if I was to tie together the personal and the professional, was how do you create the conditions for people to feel their potential, right? 00:21:59.370 --> 00:22:00.490 Lean into it. 00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:03.609 And maybe it's potential is actually, I'm gonna have to rework this. 00:22:03.609 --> 00:22:04.809 You guys have inspired me. 00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:06.970 Potential is the wrong word, right? 00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:15.450 But again, to be who you are and celebrate that and find the work that's the best fit while having fire to do that. 00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:18.890 It has been that through line throughout the course of my career. 00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:20.730 And then the decisions might make. 00:22:20.730 --> 00:22:31.769 And one of the questions you guys had posed, and it's a little bit different, but what I'm looking for when I engage with experiences or opportunities, especially ventures. 00:22:31.769 --> 00:22:33.450 And I didn't know the answer to this question. 00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:35.289 I found it really insightful when I did it. 00:22:35.289 --> 00:22:40.089 And I actually brought it up with my my president today that it's white space. 00:22:40.089 --> 00:22:49.529 And that term sounds very business focused, but there's something about I think every Space I've been in, partly because I've had all brand new roles, right? 00:22:49.529 --> 00:22:51.930 So I'm crafting something that doesn't exist. 00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:57.289 But where is there an opportunity to drive impact that's not already in motion? 00:22:57.289 --> 00:23:05.289 And I do think innovation is a completely overused word, but to innovate right in ways that people haven't done before. 00:23:05.769 --> 00:23:11.370 I wrote this down impact not already or always in motion. 00:23:11.370 --> 00:23:25.769 And I think I don't know whether you've used that phrase before or whether in the conversation just came out, but I would trademark the heck out of it because I think that to the extent that I've been able to get to know you, that sounds like a defining statement. 00:23:26.089 --> 00:23:26.730 It is. 00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:31.450 And it's relative to like what we're doing here at Retail Women in Tech. 00:23:31.450 --> 00:23:45.130 There are a lot of activities and communities and initiatives that have great intentions to bring women to sitting at more seats at the table in all aspects of what we do. 00:23:45.130 --> 00:23:47.370 But is it really doing that? 00:23:47.370 --> 00:23:51.930 Is it just your networking and then what happens when you leave the room? 00:23:51.930 --> 00:23:57.769 So as we built this nonprofit, the impact is what is going to change the world. 00:23:57.769

--> 00:24:02.329 So, no, but I I I thank you for that, Rich, for calling that out. 00:24:02.329 --> 00:24:06.809 I actually have a trademark I'll share when I share some closing advice to the students out there. 00:24:06.809 --> 00:24:07.930 But Judy, your turn. 00:24:07.930 --> 00:24:10.490 Rich and I could obviously talk forever. 00:24:10.490 --> 00:24:11.849 So let's pause. 00:24:11.849 --> 00:24:14.650 We'll both shut up and give you the stage for a second. 00:24:15.049 --> 00:24:17.450 I was just gonna ask to get to where we are today. 00:24:17.450 --> 00:24:21.690 Is there something that you did day to day that you think was the key to your success? 00:24:22.009 --> 00:24:33.049 So I'm not gonna answer that directly, but I'm gonna um answer it in a way that has inspired me that is at the core, what gets me up every day. 00:24:33.049 --> 00:24:46.329 I don't know if you ever watched Charlie Rose, but he was on PBS and he curated the most incredible interviews with people from every different aspect of um humanity, right? 00:24:46.329 --> 00:24:50.329 And really talked about their stories, their journeys, et cetera. 00:24:50.329 --> 00:24:58.170 And in my mid-20s, what I observed with those that were older in their career is that they had perseverance. 00:24:58.170 --> 00:24:59.769 They had passion. 00:24:59.769 --> 00:25:00.730 They never retired. 00:25:00.730 --> 00:25:02.970 I never wanted to retire and quit working. 00:25:02.970 --> 00:25:09.049 So I was always really inspired by these people who had passion and perseverance for what they wanted to do. 00:25:09.049 --> 00:25:14.329 So that word, one passion, like just naturally comes from who I am. 00:25:14.329 --> 00:25:16.650 So that one was an easy win. 00:25:16.650 --> 00:25:21.049 The hard one, but the one that pays off is the perseverance. 00:25:21.049 --> 00:25:24.329 So that is what gets me going through every day. 00:25:24.329 --> 00:25:36.970 And I used this phrase earlier, and I'm particularly true with the decisions I've made in the last year to go all in on the nonprofit, to write the book and write and have many more that I want to write. 00:25:36.970 --> 00:25:44.809 And I'm digging deep into my retirement, is that I have to recommit daily to being true to myself. 00:25:44.809 --> 00:25:46.250 And that ain't easy. 00:25:46.250 --> 00:25:49.370 It's sure rewarding, but it ain't easy. 00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:58.569 So, following up on that, would you say that there is a trait that you see in other people that you would believe would be effective leaders in their future? 00:25:59.210 --> 00:26:11.769 So, this is gonna come back to maybe my trademark that I think I want to have that that um was uh inspired as I went through telling the stories of others and myself is this idea of fit and fire. 00:26:11.769 --> 00:26:18.650 So I recommend if I was to give the advice to all of you, always have a fire in your belly for whatever you're doing. 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:24.250 And when the fire dies out, then you need to pause and question is it the right place? 00:26:24.250 --> 00:26:28.569 Now, that fire could go almost to nothing and then get some gas. 00:26:28.569 --> 00:26:32.490 Like it's not the second that the fire starts to die, that you go running, right? 00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:37.930 There's shit work that can turn into and terrible situations that can turn into awesome. 00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:40.569 So that fire does not need to be roaring all the time. 00:26:40.569 --> 00:26:43.289 And in fact, that's a misnomer if you think that's the case. 00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:48.490 But if the light has gone out, you don't see a fuel supply coming anytime soon. 00:26:48.490 --> 00:26:49.529 Pause. 00:26:49.529 --> 00:26:51.130 That should be the constant. 00:26:51.130 --> 00:26:53.849 The fit, though, changes over time. 00:26:53.849 --> 00:26:57.930 So there are times that something makes sense based on where you are. 00:26:57.930 --> 00:27:05.849 And the fit could be, I need to do this hard work that I don't love and I'm not totally interested in, but it is gonna help me get where I need to go. 00:27:05.849 --> 00:27:11.849 Or the fit is this is what I need to do because I have a new um child, right? 00:27:11.849 --> 00:27:13.529 Or my parent is sick. 00:27:13.529 --> 00:27:17.930 So I think the flexibility around fit and that evolves. 00:27:17.930 --> 00:27:26.170 But you have to also respect and appreciate that you might not fit in in that time and place given your life with the work that you have. 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:35.289 And if you don't have, if the fit's not right and you don't have fire, then I think I give you carp launch to get the F out of there and figure out what is gonna work. 00:27:35.529 --> 00:27:43.849 Yeah, because if you if you stay in a situation like that, and and I really respect the fact that you said the fire may be close to being extinguished. 00:27:43.849 --> 00:27:50.809 It's not, you don't go in every day and it's not gonna be a barrel laughs and it's gonna be no, it's gonna be challenging days. 00:27:50.809 --> 00:27:52.329 But you get to that point. 00:27:52.329 --> 00:28:17.849 I I compare it to I get up in the morning, I look in the mirror, and if today's the day that my values and goals don't align with where I am, that's a day that I have to decide that it's time to move on, not to walk in and disparage the organization or try to move it where it's immovable, but that's the moment where I have to say, and it and it may be a job I love, or it may be working for someone I love, or but it doesn't align anymore. 00:28:17.849 --> 00:28:21.690 That's the day you have to say, it's time to be uncomfortable. 00:28:22.009 --> 00:28:26.569 Well, and I think, Rich, for me, you know, I get that we're older, right? 00:28:26.569 --> 00:28:28.650 So we have learned these lessons. 00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:35.849 And but what my hope is, is that we can accelerate that for the younger generation.

00:28:35.849 --> 00:28:56.329 Be purpose-driven in what you're doing and really question the idea of the value of money and title and status in terms of fulfillment, taking care of yourself and what drives you and the values that you have in exchange for maybe some of the things that we've traditionally thought were important, like lots of money. 00:28:56.329 --> 00:28:58.730 That money can disappear in a heartbeat, right? 00:28:58.730 --> 00:29:00.250 Now, you have to balance it. 00:29:00.250 --> 00:29:05.130 Money did give me the opportunity to do this, but I've never struck it rich at all. 00:29:05.130 --> 00:29:07.370 This is a big gamble on myself. 00:29:07.370 --> 00:29:17.690 But I think those gambles, if we can encourage rich, these younger generations, to stay true to the feelings they have in their heart, I would have done what I'm doing now a lot earlier. 00:29:18.009 --> 00:29:19.450 That's definitely great advice. 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:31.049 Um, but I feel like once once you're starting your career, it's kind of hard to choose something that you feel like would feel a lot of fulfillment from, especially knowing that you have a lot of expenses you need to cover. 00:29:31.049 --> 00:29:33.930 So I feel like it's kind of like a two-way in a way. 00:29:34.250 --> 00:29:41.849 So I was gonna say though, I think as somebody who's, you know, dipping into retirement and having to get really smart about what you realize is how little you need. 00:29:41.849 --> 00:29:43.609 And what's the payoff? 00:29:43.609 --> 00:29:45.289 That comes down to the question of fit. 00:29:45.289 --> 00:29:55.609 There might be a time that the right fit is when you want to focus in on the making the money and the titles, et cetera, and you're willing to give up values and peace and fulfillment. 00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:57.769 And that's up to everybody to decide. 00:29:57.769 --> 00:30:05.130 But Rich, to your point earlier, in a consumerism-based environment, like how many pairs of shoes do we actually need? 00:30:05.130 --> 00:30:07.450 How big does the house need to be? 00:30:07.450 --> 00:30:19.289 Yes, we have bills, but the facts of the matter out there are, and I don't know who I'd quote, that as long as your everyday expenses are covered, there is not a huge increase in happiness beyond that. 00:30:19.289 --> 00:30:24.089 And I think that's part of the opportunities to break down that success. 00:30:24.730 --> 00:30:30.730 And I think it's a great conversation, but you're you're almost redefining the difference between a career and a job. 00:30:30.730 --> 00:30:39.930 And it's okay to have a job that pays the bills that allows you to do things that fuel you, like go to Honduras to work with Daisy and do something really meaningful. 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:42.089 And we will get to that a little bit later. 00:30:42.089 --> 00:30:46.890 But you kind of alluded to the fact that your first semester in college may not have been the best. 00:30:46.890 --> 00:30:54.569 And I was gonna say, hey, want to compare GPAs because Judy would probably laugh at who wins the lowest GPA. 00:30:54.809 --> 00:30:55.930 Oh, oh, oh, let's do it. 00:30:55.930 --> 00:30:56.410 Let's do it. 00:30:56.410 --> 00:30:57.529 What do you think, Judy? 00:30:57.849 --> 00:30:58.569 Who goes first? 00:30:58.809 --> 00:31:03.450 So no, Judy, I want to I'm because I want to know what that she thinks is a bad GPA. 00:31:05.210 --> 00:31:06.890 Mine was mine was pretty low. 00:31:06.890 --> 00:31:07.930 I was at 3.1. 00:31:07.930 --> 00:31:08.890 My false amount. 00:31:09.130 --> 00:31:13.130 Oh so the point. 00:31:13.289 --> 00:31:13.849 So I was going to do that. 00:31:15.930 --> 00:31:18.490 But we could have not scripted that better. 00:31:18.490 --> 00:31:19.529 All right. 00:31:19.529 --> 00:31:21.370 So what do you think Rich and I have? 00:31:21.370 --> 00:31:25.130 I mean, because I'm talking way lower than that. 00:31:25.130 --> 00:31:26.329 2.5? 00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:27.769 Pardon me? 00:31:27.769 --> 00:31:30.569 Like a 2.6, 2.0? 00:31:30.890 --> 00:31:33.769 My first semester, 1.33. 00:31:34.250 --> 00:31:35.130 Oh, he beat me. 00:31:35.130 --> 00:31:35.930 Of course he did. 00:31:35.930 --> 00:31:37.049 I had a 1.9. 00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:37.529 Yeah. 00:31:37.529 --> 00:31:39.210 My first semester, 133. 00:31:39.210 --> 00:31:48.089 And but the point I was gonna make is, and there was a point in time where I would have never admitted that, but nobody's asking what your GPA is back in. 00:31:48.089 --> 00:31:49.049 Yeah. 00:31:49.049 --> 00:31:53.690 Flip side, nobody cares that I got a 3.9 when I went to William Mary and got my MBA. 00:31:53.849 --> 00:31:54.089 Yeah. 00:31:54.569 --> 00:31:54.890 Exactly. 00:31:54.890 --> 00:31:57.609 Yeah, well, I graduated as a, you know, 3.9. 00:31:57.609 --> 00:32:04.250 What you do with your time and how you impact or what leads to it. 00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:13.930 And I think I didn't have that realization until I was well into my 40s that the things that I thought were of value really meant nothing, and they mean nothing to me now. 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:22.490 And that's to the point, Rich, and what I was saying to you, Judy, is like, I and I appreciate that, you know, Rich and I are now in our 50s. 00:32:22.490 --> 00:32:25.769 And the best thing about getting older is wisdom. 00:32:25.769 --> 00:32:26.250 Right. 00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:28.890 There's a lot of things I don't love, but you do get wisdom. 00:32:28.890 --> 00:32:33.690 And I know that wisdom can't be forced upon people who have not had the experience. 00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:43.529 But the wisdom that I hope that your generation can start to internalize is don't let work destroy your life. 00:32:43.529 --> 00:32:50.170 And Rich and I have seen, and we've also experienced the impact that a crappy job has. 00:32:50.170 --> 00:32:52.650 And again, you have to do crappy work sometimes. 00:32:52.650 -->

00:33:02.730 I mean, with the interns, um, it's actually happened for somebody who is outside of this, who was at ETL last year, that had this misconception that being a CMO was going to be like walking apart. 00:33:02.730 --> 00:33:12.970 And I was like, no, like in our organization as a startup, we're still rolling up our sleeves and build, you know, doing data dumps into Google Sheets and sorting and sifting. 00:33:12.970 --> 00:33:15.370 Is that what you're working so hard for? 00:33:15.370 --> 00:33:18.170 Is to not have a life when you're an EVP? 00:33:18.170 --> 00:33:22.730 Because you're supposed to be always on and you're traveling everywhere. 00:33:22.730 --> 00:33:29.210 And I think that there's this romantization around like these titles and the access you get, et cetera. 00:33:29.210 --> 00:33:31.370 But all of it comes at a cost. 00:33:31.370 --> 00:33:35.930 And I I say to my kids, I have three teenagers, life is a series of trade-offs. 00:33:35.930 --> 00:33:39.289 And you can, and those trade-offs shift over time. 00:33:39.289 --> 00:33:42.250 And they're okay to maybe sometimes be incongruent. 00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:46.809 But I do think for your generation, it's like, why learn from us? 00:33:47.049 --> 00:33:50.970 Well, going back to how you guys shared your GPAs, I think that's amazing. 00:33:50.970 --> 00:34:04.490 And I really hope you guys keep that part in the podcast because speaking of comparison and how you were mentioning it earlier, just today I was looking through LinkedIn and I saw somebody graduated with being on these lists every semester and found myself comparing to that. 00:34:04.490 --> 00:34:07.529 And being like, I was never able to do that. 00:34:07.529 --> 00:34:12.329 And I feel like um studying was never mm my strength, I think. 00:34:12.329 --> 00:34:19.529 Like I always I feel like I always put in more effort than other people, and then they'd end up getting a better grade than I would, even though I'd be stuck in the library for hours. 00:34:19.529 --> 00:34:20.809 So it's really great hearing that. 00:34:20.809 --> 00:34:24.009 And I feel like so many other students would appreciate hearing that perspective. 00:34:24.009 --> 00:34:25.130 I just thought I had to say that. 00:34:25.369 --> 00:34:28.250 So Judy, and I think Rich is gonna echo me. 00:34:28.250 --> 00:34:30.489 I don't think I'm gonna go far off on this one. 00:34:30.489 --> 00:34:33.049 Or in our third cohort of interns. 00:34:33.049 --> 00:34:37.210 I know within five minutes if I'm gonna bring them on or not. 00:34:37.210 --> 00:34:42.009 And I don't look at, you know, yes, do I see their GPA on a resume? 00:34:42.009 --> 00:34:51.210 What I look for energy, commitment, drive, curiosity, want to learn something new. 00:34:51.210 --> 00:34:54.329 And those are qualities that do not show up on a resume. 00:34:54.329 --> 00:34:59.849 And even when I would do hiring before the interns, I would tell people, I want to know who you are. 00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:02.729 And there's a lot of talk about this idea of a career narrative. 00:35:02.729 --> 00:35:05.449 And again, these like these words that we get stuck in. 00:35:05.449 --> 00:35:10.250 But it the jeunesse qua is what's going to connect you and make you special. 00:35:10.250 --> 00:35:22.569 But at the end of the day, I'm hiring based on drive and passion and commitment and the belief that anybody can learn something if they care enough. 00:35:22.569 --> 00:35:25.769 So, Rich, I'm curious in what you feel about that topic. 00:35:26.089 --> 00:35:27.289 So I agree with you. 00:35:27.289 --> 00:35:34.089 And I I think that what I would say is does a GPA matter? 00:35:34.089 --> 00:35:35.209 It may or may not. 00:35:35.209 --> 00:35:36.169 Does a title matter? 00:35:36.169 --> 00:35:36.889 It may or may not. 00:35:36.889 --> 00:35:41.849 But it's what drove you to it. 00:35:41.849 --> 00:35:45.769 Like I can interview somebody who had a 3.8 GPA. 00:35:45.769 --> 00:35:48.009 I think I saw the same LinkedIn post. 00:35:48.009 --> 00:36:00.889 And if I gain an understanding as to what drove them and what they were doing with it, and it's part of their brand, and I hate to default to that, but I'm going to, then okay, I get it. 00:36:00.889 --> 00:36:16.409 Conversely, I might interview somebody who has a 2.5 GPA and they struggle to get that, but the struggle made them hungry and it made them passionate, and they have other interests, and they're just a more well-rounded person. 00:36:16.409 --> 00:36:21.049 And I know that that person is someone, if they hit a brick wall, they're going to keep going. 00:36:21.049 --> 00:36:27.449 And one of the things that I tell my daughter all the time is learning isn't measured by a grade. 00:36:27.449 --> 00:36:30.009 And success isn't measured by a salary. 00:36:30.009 --> 00:36:35.049 Now, money's important, grades are important, and you've got to, but it's it's much more than that. 00:36:35.049 --> 00:36:43.369 And I think that's one of the things that I don't think, Shannon, we teach enough is, and I don't like to, I don't want to necessarily default to how do you brand yourself? 00:36:43.369 --> 00:36:44.250 It's who are you? 00:36:44.409 --> 00:36:47.369 And it's going to say in your why, right? 00:36:47.369 --> 00:36:49.289 And what gets you out of bed every day? 00:36:49.289 --> 00:36:50.569 That's what we want to hear. 00:36:50.569 --> 00:36:52.409 That's what we're hiring for. 00:36:52.409 --> 00:36:54.089 And it's what you deserve. 00:36:54.329 --> 00:36:56.089 But I'm going to pivot a little bit. 00:36:56.089 --> 00:37:01.209 What is your greatest satisfaction in being a leader? 00:37:01.929 --> 00:37:04.169 Oh, seeing people thrive. 00:37:04.169 --> 00:37:09.849 It's those moments, and again, it's the creating the conditions for people to love what they do every day. 00:37:09.849 --> 00:37:13.849 But when they I don't know, when they feel good about where they are.

00:37:14.169 --> 00:37:16.089 And I knew that was going to be your answer. 00:37:16.089 --> 00:37:19.369 Not because you said it before, but instinctively I knew. 00:37:19.369 --> 00:37:28.809 And because of that, and it's why relationships and networking are so important, is that I'm going to compare it to the New York Yankees. 00:37:28.809 --> 00:37:32.089 You can go out and buy all the expensive players you want. 00:37:32.089 --> 00:37:33.609 You can pay top contracts. 00:37:33.609 --> 00:37:35.449 It doesn't guarantee you a championship. 00:37:35.449 --> 00:37:36.169 Not at all. 00:37:36.169 --> 00:37:57.849 And as a coach, as a manager, as a leader, if you really love what you do, you take great pride in finding the undiscovered, finding the underdog, finding that team player who's going to gut it out day in and day out, who wasn't given a chance by other clubs, and they end up becoming your 12th person or your leader or your MVP. 00:37:57.849 --> 00:38:03.609 And so that's why degrees matter and grades matter, and but it's the total package. 00:38:03.849 --> 00:38:05.609 Well, it's the five-tool player, right? 00:38:05.609 --> 00:38:08.409 Of course, you need the person who's going to be your power hitter. 00:38:08.409 --> 00:38:11.369 But I'm going to answer it differently than I thought I would. 00:38:11.369 --> 00:38:17.529 So what I would say is that in we, we, you know, at Retail Onatech, we're so thrilled with our mentorship program. 00:38:17.529 --> 00:38:19.289 We're blowing it up this year. 00:38:19.289 --> 00:38:21.529 But this idea of sponsorship, right? 00:38:21.529 --> 00:38:34.969 And so as you're going through and you're cultivating these relationships, but for those speaking to the audience who are hearing this that are not 19, 20, 21, 22, whatever it is, how are you sponsoring someone? 00:38:34.969 --> 00:38:43.529 Because I think that's where Rich, the role of a sponsor, is cultivating the pieces of somebody that they don't maybe know that's there, but we can see. 00:38:43.529 --> 00:38:45.609 So we're not just telling them and mentoring them. 00:38:45.609 --> 00:38:48.729 We're actually sitting in the rooms on behalf of them. 00:38:48.729 --> 00:38:53.929 And we're driving and encouraging them to follow those pieces of them. 00:38:53.929 --> 00:38:55.769 And it's not easy, you guys. 00:38:55.769 --> 00:38:57.369 It's not easy to follow that. 00:38:57.369 --> 00:39:11.369 And when I decided to step outside of the box, and I hate to use that was a really overused phrase for a long time, not in my thinking, but in my actions, is when I finally found the way that I can have the greatest impact in the world. 00:39:11.689 --> 00:39:28.969 The challenge today within careers, and I've I've made this joke before, that it's almost like I'll have my AI contact your AI because HR departments are using AI to filter resumes, and professionals or students are taking AI to take their resume and search for all the keywords. 00:39:28.969 --> 00:39:38.009 And you get the social media reels that are basically saying, here's how you take your resume, look at the 120 keywords and optimize it. 00:39:38.009 --> 00:39:42.969 And it's like a gentic hiring as opposed to what you're doing. 00:39:42.969 --> 00:39:56.250 Yes, it's women in retail tech, but it's about a connection and it's about meeting people and learning about people and empowering people and driving people forward and the industry forward. 00:39:56.489 --> 00:40:00.889 Well, and that inspires several points, but uh we'll see how many I get to. 00:40:00.889 --> 00:40:04.409 So, right, we believe one-to-one connections are a superpower. 00:40:04.409 --> 00:40:09.369 When you create a connection with somebody, you're not just doing it for yourself, right? 00:40:09.369 --> 00:40:14.889 It's a reciprocal, I care about you, I hear you, I want to get to know you. 00:40:14.889 --> 00:40:18.409 And so that's part of what we tried to foster. 00:40:18.409 --> 00:40:24.569 We also are fostering the skills, the upskill skilling, the transferable skills. 00:40:24.569 --> 00:40:26.889 So I talked about a perfect storm grooming. 00:40:26.889 --> 00:40:33.769 One of them is the AI recruiting models because it's going to model the cultures and the population that already exist. 00:40:33.769 --> 00:40:41.449 We've also gone, and you guys, the amount of stories I hear now, people going through, and Rich, have you been hearing this six, seven, eight interviews? 00:40:41.449 --> 00:40:45.289 I don't know how these companies have the time for it, to be quite frank. 00:40:45.289 --> 00:40:51.129 No, and we've said, Judy, to our college student interns, like, they're like, nobody's getting back to me. 00:40:51.129 --> 00:40:56.329 I always like, well, welcome to the party, because you could be as SVP and nobody's getting back to you. 00:40:56.329 --> 00:40:59.929 What's going on with that being the case? 00:40:59.929 --> 00:41:02.889 I can we can only speak for retail, or at least I can. 00:41:02.889 --> 00:41:08.569 We are hiring for unicorns and we're hiring for deep functional expertise. 00:41:08.569 --> 00:41:18.649 But our Power of We Wednesday interview series that we have done with over 60 women and a handful of allies, none of them had a linear career path. 00:41:18.649 --> 00:41:20.809 They all had spider webs. 00:41:20.809 --> 00:41:35.849 And so one of the things that we are really focused in on is how do we change the conversation and open the aperture for tech companies, retailers, media to value the diversity of life experiences and career experiences that make us the best of who we are. 00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:50.889 So we're trying to create one-to-one connections, but also the skills, the transferable skills, the upskills, the ability to tell that story to somebody, because you can't get a job without a connection and you can't get a job without the skills. 00:41:50.889 --> 00:41:53.769 You need the magic of those things coming

together. 00:41:54.169 --> 00:42:04.169 It's a wonderful place to be able to come into and to be able to forge those connections, whether it's the skills or whether it's the people, and be able to create opportunities that way. 00:42:04.569 --> 00:42:07.129 And that I mean, that's at the core of what we want to do, right? 00:42:07.129 --> 00:42:11.849 Is to build this workforce engine of that's driving to mobility. 00:42:11.849 --> 00:42:13.689 Yes, parity, right? 00:42:13.689 --> 00:42:15.049 That's the ambitious goal. 00:42:15.049 --> 00:42:25.369 But mobility, because we also know, Rich, within a retailer, if you want to go from merchandising into planning or planning into merchandising, that's almost impossible. 00:42:25.369 --> 00:42:28.969 Let alone I'm in merchandising and I have a passion for technology. 00:42:28.969 --> 00:42:30.250 Where do I go? 00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:31.529 I'm in technology. 00:42:31.529 --> 00:42:33.209 I have a passion for retail. 00:42:33.209 --> 00:42:34.569 I can't get in there. 00:42:34.569 --> 00:42:39.209 And we're gonna grow as an industry if you just put your business net on. 00:42:39.209 --> 00:42:40.729 It makes sense to do that. 00:42:41.049 --> 00:42:49.289 It's the reason I don't like rom coms because if the two just had a communication in the first five minutes, I could have skipped the rest of the movie and gone to dinner. 00:42:49.289 --> 00:42:52.489 And you have an industry that's saying we can't find talent. 00:42:52.489 --> 00:42:54.969 You have talented people saying we can't find jobs. 00:42:54.969 --> 00:42:58.889 And it's like, okay, let's skip the popcorn and introduce you. 00:43:00.089 --> 00:43:01.049 I'm gonna borrow that. 00:43:01.049 --> 00:43:04.089 That is exactly, and that's ridiculous. 00:43:04.409 --> 00:43:08.809 In our industry right now, Judy, I don't want to scare you guys all from coming to retail. 00:43:08.809 --> 00:43:12.169 And Rich, these are the numbers I read last week in Retail Dive. 00:43:12.169 --> 00:43:14.489 Nothing to do with what happened this week. 00:43:14.489 --> 00:43:19.929 We have layoffs at 125% year over year from last year. 00:43:19.929 --> 00:43:24.089 We're the highest, I think, impacted industry with layoffs. 00:43:24.329 --> 00:43:40.329 And that'll be a whole other conversation because it's one of the areas where I am maybe encouraged isn't the right word, but optimistic that with tech, with agentic AI, when used properly, that it'll open up opportunities for a wider range of talent. 00:43:40.329 --> 00:43:42.489 But we have to get through that right now. 00:43:42.809 --> 00:43:53.289 Well, and Rich, that is what we that's so a part of who we are and committed to is that we need to foster the spaces for women to fill those roles. 00:43:53.289 --> 00:43:54.409 Because I absolutely agree. 00:43:54.409 --> 00:43:57.929 AI is not necessarily going to take your job, but somebody who knows it is. 00:43:57.929 --> 00:44:01.049 And we need to redefine in

our industry. 00:44:01.049 --> 00:44:07.209 So we're planning to hopefully put together a think tank that define what's the AI operating model of the future. 00:44:07.209 --> 00:44:10.489 AI is not just a technology, it's a way of life. 00:44:10.489 --> 00:44:18.009 And we need to completely rethink the way things are happening and who are at the table and where to make those things happening. 00:44:18.009 --> 00:44:20.729 So, Rich, yeah, let's pick up on another conversation. 00:44:20.729 --> 00:44:23.129 I could go another four hours on that topic. 00:44:23.449 --> 00:44:25.289 We will put together a round table. 00:44:25.289 --> 00:44:28.889 So I do have to ask one question before we go to the rapid fire. 00:44:28.889 --> 00:44:37.929 Because we did have the opportunity to experience retail ROI together and to go to Honduras to the Kapan region and the importance exactly and the importance of giving back. 00:44:37.929 --> 00:44:42.089 And I think I still have a hard time expressing what that trip did. 00:44:42.089 --> 00:44:45.689 I I know you've done a better job putting it into words. 00:44:45.689 --> 00:44:51.689 What Did it mean to you and why is that important from a life learning perspective? 00:44:52.009 --> 00:44:54.409 I mean, this really came down to being a mother of three. 00:44:54.409 --> 00:44:58.250 I come back to something that's been said way before I ever existed. 00:44:58.250 --> 00:45:00.809 Children are not born with hate. 00:45:00.809 --> 00:45:02.250 Hate is learned. 00:45:02.250 --> 00:45:04.169 Trauma changes people. 00:45:04.169 --> 00:45:11.529 So I have a philosophy that I think is shared by many parents because there's the whole conversation around nature versus nurture. 00:45:11.529 --> 00:45:13.129 We come out who we are. 00:45:13.129 --> 00:45:15.529 We're like stone, we're statues, we're stone. 00:45:15.529 --> 00:45:20.009 Our genetics, our nature is really damn strong. 00:45:20.009 --> 00:45:25.369 But what nurture does is it could it could chisel out of bouquet or cut your leg off. 00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:31.449 And so when I think about what we were doing, Rich, is it's starting at the youngest levels, right? 00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:40.329 And how do we build a world and build the flywheel and the momentum that there's less hate, there's less violence, there's less trauma. 00:45:40.329 --> 00:45:44.889 Because to me, the one the most heartbreaking thing is a child in trauma. 00:45:44.889 --> 00:45:50.489 And so that's what really moved me around what we were doing. 00:45:50.489 --> 00:45:56.809 And then to see, and this comes back to what we were saying earlier about what do we really need. 00:45:56.809 --> 00:46:04.250 And I think you see the humanity and the value of somebody being thoughtful and just touching and connecting. 00:46:04.250 --> 00:46:08.329 They don't need a McMijan, they just want a meal. 00:46:08.329 --> 00:46:20.169 And so I think it comes back and it connects you to the fact that what world are we living in in America in our definition of success when we have these people that are lining up for a plate of rice. 00:46:20.169 --> 00:46:24.889 And we have these in these college kids so concerned about their 4.2. 00:46:24.889 --> 00:46:33.129 So it brings back to me the gratitude that we we have to live with. 00:46:33.129 --> 00:46:35.929 It doesn't take away from our own personal pain. 00:46:35.929 --> 00:46:40.329 But Rich, I don't know if that answered the question or not, or how you felt. 00:46:40.809 --> 00:46:43.689 There's no right answer to that, but I think you you framed it very well. 00:46:43.689 --> 00:46:47.369 I and and you and I were both were there for that moment. 00:46:47.369 --> 00:46:55.929 The the moment when we were with the families that basically live next, they they live in well, I'm not saying next to it, they live in the landfill. 00:46:55.929 --> 00:47:03.609 And so basically you take a poor community and the trash the poor community gets rid of is up in this landfill, and they're living off of that. 00:47:03.609 --> 00:47:08.809 And and this tells you a lot about your your perceptions and how they can be wrong. 00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:15.529 Your daughter and Nikki's daughter had cameras and bubbles, and I'm thinking, why? 00:47:15.529 --> 00:47:16.969 This is ridiculous. 00:47:16.969 --> 00:47:33.449 And yet, when they were taking pictures of the kids and they were blowing bubbles, and the smiles and the laughs and the grins and and the father who held the his daughter and was fixing his hair for the for the picture, I'm sitting there saying, How simple is it to make somebody smile and laugh? 00:47:33.449 --> 00:47:37.849 And if I were in charge, I would have said, Don't bring that, bring more rice. 00:47:37.849 --> 00:47:41.289 And yet that probably meant more in the stickers and things like that. 00:47:41.289 --> 00:47:43.449 The stickers that's gonna come back to the stickers. 00:47:43.449 --> 00:47:46.009 Yeah, it it does put it in perspective. 00:47:46.009 --> 00:48:01.209 And I bring that back and I say, you know, within working with our associates and working with our families and working with our customers or our patrons is how do you bring those moments of joy, realizing that you know, there are tough lives out there, and it's it's our job to try and make it a little bit better. 00:48:01.369 --> 00:48:01.689 Yeah. 00:48:02.169 --> 00:48:04.169 All right, we're gonna have to lift this up, Judy. 00:48:04.169 --> 00:48:08.409 Now, you know that she's anticipating one of the questions, and let's see if you or I can hit it to start. 00:48:08.649 --> 00:48:09.369 Oh, let's see. 00:48:09.369 --> 00:48:10.409 The hardest one. 00:48:10.569 --> 00:48:11.769 Let's see if you get it. 00:48:11.769 --> 00:48:15.209 I want to say it's the dinner with three people. 00:48:15.609 --> 00:48:23.129 I had to think hard about that one, and I'm not saying I've got the right answer, but I tried not to overthink it,

and I didn't really think about them all together. 00:48:23.449 --> 00:48:24.729 Is it the city? 00:48:24.729 --> 00:48:26.250 Go to city for a day. 00:48:26.489 --> 00:48:28.169 That's the one I struggled with. 00:48:28.649 --> 00:48:31.369 I was gonna say that one, but then I was like, okay, maybe it's the dinner one. 00:48:31.369 --> 00:48:34.009 Okay, then I would love for you to answer that question. 00:48:34.250 --> 00:48:36.649 Well, I'll answer both, but that one was really hard. 00:48:36.649 --> 00:48:37.049 All right. 00:48:37.049 --> 00:48:37.929 Really hard. 00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:44.250 Because there's so many places I want to go, but if I only get to be there for 24 hours, that was the hardest part. 00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:47.529 So my initial like part was Mount Everest. 00:48:47.529 --> 00:48:48.889 And I was like, I don't know. 00:48:48.889 --> 00:48:51.449 I mean, you arrive, like, that's not a 24-hour day. 00:48:51.449 --> 00:48:52.569 I'd love to see Tibet. 00:48:52.569 --> 00:48:55.289 I mean, I've been in the mountains of Thailand, like how different would it be? 00:48:55.289 --> 00:49:02.889 So then I decided a place that, no offense, that I would love to go for 24 hours and only 24 hours is the pyramids. 00:49:02.889 --> 00:49:05.929 Because I don't think I would ever take the trip out there otherwise. 00:49:05.929 --> 00:49:09.929 And I want to see, I mean, I'm just absolutely in awe. 00:49:09.929 --> 00:49:12.169 And you made me come back to a place. 00:49:12.169 --> 00:49:24.969 Now, when I was at NRF, Rich, I don't know if you were up on the fourth or fifth floor where there was the Amex booth and you could get this cool to me luggage pad tag if you stood in line and they had a big board of all the places you were gonna go. 00:49:24.969 --> 00:49:29.129 And the one place I wanted to go was the Mel D, but I'm not going there just for 24 hours. 00:49:29.129 --> 00:49:31.129 That needs to be two weeks of decompressing. 00:49:31.289 --> 00:49:31.529 All right. 00:49:31.529 --> 00:49:37.689 So I'll ask the question that uh that I know Ghee would have asked, and it isn't on the list because I haven't added it yet. 00:49:37.689 --> 00:49:49.609 But if you had the choice of traveling into the future or traveling into the past, you can't impact anything, but you can choose how far in the future, how far in the past. 00:49:49.609 --> 00:49:50.169 Where would you go? 00:49:50.569 --> 00:49:51.689 It would not be past. 00:49:51.689 --> 00:50:02.009 I mean, and maybe that's partly not to toot my own horn as a historian that I uh internalize and listen and read and feel all the things that have already happened. 00:50:02.009 --> 00:50:05.289 And things are better today than they've ever were. 00:50:05.289 --> 00:50:08.889 As much as we like to think that we're retracting, we do in some ways. 00:50:08.889 --> 00:50:11.449 I'd like to believe that life is like the cha-cha, right? 00:50:11.449 --> 00:50:13.849 Two steps, you know, all over the place. 00:50:13.849 --> 00:50:16.329 I wouldn't go too far in the future, though. 00:50:16.329 --> 00:50:19.049 Uh I think I would maybe go 50 years. 00:50:19.049 --> 00:50:22.329 I'd want to see what my grandchildren's life was going to be like. 00:50:22.329 --> 00:50:29.529 And I would hope that I would feel so your children's, Judy, that I would hope that I don't have to fear for them. 00:50:29.529 --> 00:50:32.569 But that's a deep question, Rich. 00:50:33.849 --> 00:50:35.529 He's made that his signature. 00:50:35.529 --> 00:50:38.729 I I don't know whether I should have asked it if it's his signature, but it's okay. 00:50:38.729 --> 00:50:39.369 He's not on. 00:50:39.369 --> 00:50:40.009 It's okay. 00:50:40.009 --> 00:50:42.009 All right, Judy, you asked the final question. 00:50:42.329 --> 00:50:45.049 So, what is something you've purchased on a trip that you regret buying? 00:50:45.049 --> 00:50:46.250 Oh, so I'm sorry. 00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:48.569 This was the question I had no answer for. 00:50:48.809 --> 00:50:50.089 All right, so go in the opposite direction. 00:50:50.089 --> 00:50:54.169 What's something you bought on a trip that was on a whim that you just absolutely love? 00:50:54.409 --> 00:50:55.449 I'm very frugal. 00:50:55.449 --> 00:50:57.849 So I don't spend on things. 00:50:57.849 --> 00:50:59.929 I spend on the experiences. 00:50:59.929 --> 00:51:02.409 So I'm gonna answer it differently. 00:51:02.409 --> 00:51:04.329 It's not a thing, it was an experience. 00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:15.529 So I was in New York with my daughter this last September, and we bonded and spent countless hours of my life watching Gossip Girl together. 00:51:15.529 --> 00:51:18.809 We'd shopped all day on Friday and Saturday morning. 00:51:18.809 --> 00:51:21.769 We were gonna go hit all the Gossip Girl stuffs, and I splurged. 00:51:21.769 --> 00:51:33.769 Again, I'm living off retirement right now and I'm frugal, but I spent to have one of the bicyclist guys, Chuck Tux or whatever, take us on a Gossip Girl tour. 00:51:33.769 --> 00:51:36.729 And that was worth everything. 00:51:36.729 --> 00:51:39.769 So it wasn't a thing and it was an experience. 00:51:39.769 --> 00:51:42.489 But I'm at the Emperor's State Hotel. 00:51:42.489 --> 00:51:45.289 I look at the drinks and I was like, oh, I really want that drink. 00:51:45.289 --> 00:51:48.009 And it comes in and it's got Gossip Girl like stamped on it. 00:51:48.250 --> 00:51:52.969 I really respect that answer because it's one of those a material possession. 00:51:52.969 --> 00:51:57.049 Oftentimes you're not going to remember it, and you can lose it. 00:51:57.049 --> 00:52:09.209 I mean, hey, you know, you never know what life's gonna what life's gonna happen, but nobody can take away the experience of being in New York with your daughter going through Gossip Girl and doing the the Central Park and he plays the music. 00:52:09.289 --> 00:52:11.449 And I was like, Pi, we're not like the cheesy other people. 00:52:11.449 --> 00:52:15.529 Like, we're doing Gossip Girl and getting the thumbs up everywhere. 00:52:15.529 --> 00:52:16.569 So yes. 00:52:16.569 --> 00:52:18.809 Did Judy did I answer your question? 00:52:18.809 --> 00:52:20.489 Do I get a pass fail on that one? 00:52:20.649 --> 00:52:21.369 Yeah, I love that. 00:52:21.369 --> 00:52:23.689 I love gossip girls, so you definitely get the pass. 00:52:24.809 --> 00:52:25.209 All right. 00:52:25.209 --> 00:52:27.209 Well, Judy, do you want to close the show? 00:52:27.209 --> 00:52:29.209 I mean, I will say thank you to Shannon. 00:52:29.209 --> 00:52:30.889 This is this has been a long time coming. 00:52:30.889 --> 00:52:32.169 We've talked about it for quite a bit. 00:52:32.169 --> 00:52:38.409 We will definitely have to do a round table and and delve into a couple of topics, but this was well worth the wait. 00:52:38.409 --> 00:52:40.569 I greatly appreciate you investing the time today. 00:52:40.809 --> 00:52:44.729 What a great way to end my friday, while my Friday is not totally over like yours. 00:52:44.729 --> 00:52:51.689 But uh at the core of what we do and what I do every day is again uh creating the conditions for people to love. 00:52:51.689 --> 00:52:52.569 And that doesn't matter. 00:52:52.569 --> 00:52:54.089 You know, we honor every season. 00:52:54.089 --> 00:53:04.250 So, Judy, it's you and your peers, it's high schoolers, it's those who are just starting out, it's those who are in the messy middle, no matter what age, it's those at later stages. 00:53:04.250 --> 00:53:06.009 We have to learn on our own. 00:53:06.009 --> 00:53:19.769 But if we can close the gap a little bit of the pain that we've gone through to do the work that we're supposed to do, um, I hope we inspire you guys to have at least a voice in your head that's saying, Is this really what I want? 00:53:19.769 --> 00:53:21.449 Those are choices you have to make. 00:53:21.689 --> 00:53:23.849 That is definitely a question that I think about as well. 00:53:23.849 --> 00:53:25.689 Um, but it's great to hear your advice on that. 00:53:25.689 --> 00:53:27.609 And thank you so much for joining us today, Shannon. 00:53:27.609 --> 00:53:30.250 It was great speaking with you and learning from your experience. 00:53:30.569 --> 00:53:31.769 My pleasure.