Full Transcript for Killer Thriller: You’re Not Crazy. You’re Being Gaslit.

parents' behavior, whatever, or I did it because I had to survive childhood. 00:06:09 Speaker 1: Whatever. 00:06:11 Speaker 2: If someone brings to my if you bring to my attention, like Jamie, you know what, every time I try to talk to you about something important to me, you always make it about yourself. All you care about is yourself. And I say, oh my god, I'm so I didn't realize I did that, right, and I have some sense of remorse. Right. It may be hard for me to change it because it's. 00:06:29 Speaker 1: All I know. 00:06:29 Speaker 2: But I don't want to hurt you. Right Where somebody who's narcissistic, it's always about them because you're just an object. You don't matter, your feelings, your concerns, How I'm hurting you, It doesn't, it doesn't. It's either here nor therapy because it gives you nothing. 00:06:47 Speaker 1: Wow. So there is a piece of just simple accountability or awareness. 00:06:53 Speaker 2: Yes, great work. Yes, they I always tell people narcissists do not have accountability. They will project onto others. They will gaslight the crap out of you to make you feel like somehow this is your fault and you're not sure how that is, but it is. And so then you're apologizing when you don't even know what you're apologizing. 00:07:12 Speaker 1: For, right right, right. So in in gas lit by my husband, the Morgan Mester story, which I know you're familiar with, and I spoke with Jenna, and I know you've spoken with Jenna as well. Who I couldn't be a bigger fan of her as a human being and as an actress. But what really stood out to me was how slowly the manipulation build over time. So at what point does something like that cross into emotional abuse? And I don't want to be hard to pay. 00:07:42 Speaker 2: Oh, I love this question. I love this question because it's a very it's a big misconception that a lot of people have. So I will say this in regards to the to the movie. I'm very picky with the I watched a ton of dot doc btteries and movies about all this stuff. This was one of the most well done movies that got it right, and there's few and this they nailed it. And so and for one of the reasons, it is exactly what you said that it's this subtle, like long coming into you know, coming to be right. And the reason for that is because it's exactly how it works. It's that's why when people come to me, they're like, I can't believe I didn't see this. I'm like, there was literally no way for you to see this, and before you even know what's going on, you're too sucked in. Right, So it is deliberate that it starts like this. There is no right I shouldn't say, though. There's rarely a time when I'm working with people where they can say this was the moment. They'll tell me this was their breaking point to leave. But they never tell me this moment. It is so subtle, it is so calculated. 00:08:47 Speaker 1: As you're talking, it's like I'm hearing it like almost like the weaving of a fabric. Right, and then all of a sudden, you're in a sweater. Wait, yeah, you didn't want to be wearing a sweater. 00:08:58 Speaker 2: I actually may steal that from you because I love that. I use the worst analogy. My analogy is that you have a leak in your kitchen and you just say like, oh, whatever, i'll deal with it later, I'll do it, and then before you know it, you're seeing up to your waist and water in your kitchen. You don't know how your gut, but yours is much better. 00:09:15 Speaker 1: So I take your thanks. 00:09:18 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's but you know, make no mistake, it's on purpose that it's like this. It's very it's very calculated, and so by the time you realize what's happening, there's so many things put in place to make it difficult for you to escape, right, And I say escape on purpose, not life. 00:09:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that is what it is, right, It's not this question that people who really don't understand this at all are always saying, like, well, why why didn't she just leave? Or why didn't you It's like that's just a complete lack of understanding of the dynamics of the entire er. Well said, yes, scenario. So in this film and in 's life, she slowly starts questioning her own reality. So what is actually happening psychologically when somebody gets to that point? 00:10:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it starts out. You know, people think love bombing is is is you know, roses and calling all the time and confessing their undying love and you're my soulmate in all this, which it is and it can be. But love bombing really is figuring out what that person's needs once interests are and matching them exactly on that. Right, So I could love camping. I don't, but I could love camping right, and I meets it right, and I meet somebody and they're like, you know, you know what I would love to do one day? I would love to go camping with you. And you're like, what right. So it's it's really kind of sneakly figuring out what these persons needs are, what's missed in their development with their family filling in all the holes. So you feel like you're this puzzle piece, and so when you're in that you become blindsided. It's like a tidal wave. I've never had this before. I've never felt like this before. You're my soulmate and it's amazing. And who doesn't want that? 00:11:07 Speaker 1: Right? You feel seen result that way. I want to be understood. We want to be seen and what we really care about. 00:11:14 Speaker 2: And so you don't see it then. And so what happens in that timeframe that's usually short, You make a lot of decisions that are very long term in terms of their impact, like moving in together very fast, interesting, joining bank accounts very fast, all of these things that seemed normal and natural. Yeah, fast, but normal and natural. But the reason why the narcissist is doing it that way is so that they can continuously make your world smaller while gaining access to you from all areas finances, your housing, your cell phone, your car. I cannot tell you how many

times I have had people say, oh, like they want me to they want me to work for them, so I'm going to leave and build my business with them, And you're like, ah, right, so yeah. So a lot of that are to become their manager and they start doing all their deals for them, and it just everything goes south very quickly. So that happens, and then things slowly start to shift, but not enough where you can say, oh my god, I gotta get out. It's things like are you sure you really want to go to work today? I mean, like your kid's homesick, they really want you right like you you don't want to leave them with your mom. Or it could be you know, you know your friend Jamie. I know you've been friends with her forever, but there's just something about her. I just I can't put my finger on it. She never did anything to me, but I don't know if I trust her. So before you know what, they start to isolate you further further, or you know, with finances this is a big one. It'll be something like no, no, no, sweet, I'll do the taxes. Don't worry about you know how you are with math, like, don't don't even worry about it. And so you give up your independence without even realizing you're giving. 00:12:53 Speaker 1: It out under the guises of something being like a gift or something being done. You're being taken care of in some way. I literally, just in the three seconds we've been talking, i'vem like, oh, three people that I've known in my life. One boyfriend, one manager of a friend, and one the now ex wife of a friend. Like, thank goodness they are divorced. Now, it's really diabolical. 00:13:17 Speaker 2: It's diabolical. 00:13:19 Speaker 1: So how how do you know when someone is gaslighting you? 00:13:24 Speaker 2: Okay, so you won't at first, So I like to make that very crazy. You won't at first. What you'll feel is confusion. You'll feel shame, you'll feel doubt, you'll feel insecure, and you'll feel fearful, like you're losing your mind. So it'll be subtle things like and and you know for people listening that are like, oh not, everyone's bad as a narcissist. And you know it's bigger than that. It's more than that. So it's it's this person will deliberately hide your cell phone, make you look for it, make you think you've lost it you're going crazy, or or hide your keys, or hit your car and then blame you. I mean, all these little things. So these things start to happen, or delete something from your from your calendar, and you think you have plans. You swore you had plans, but then you look and you're like, wait, I have no plans. And little things like that, so you start to doubt your Saturday, which then turns into are you all right? Maybe you should see a psychologist. I'm really worried about you. You seem so stressed out, like maybe you should not go out as much, maybe you should quit your job or let me take charge of this. And so, before you know what, you start to believe this because here you have this caring. 00:14:39 Speaker 1: Person and they sound reasonable. 00:14:42 Speaker 2: Like reasonable yeah, And so you start to feel embarrassed. So you start to limpit your your your your social network. And so what ends up happening is that you ends up in this tiny, small bubble and your reality has become so warped that you have to depend on your abuser to define reality for you, because without them, you are lost. And so that's what gaslighting really is. 00:15:10 Speaker 1: So are you just sort of mentioned a few, but are there any other kind of particular phrases or behaviors that people should immediately should like set up a red flag? 00:15:22 Speaker 2: Yes, things like you know you're crazy, or you always do this, or you know, something like that's not me, right that you show a picture to them about you said you were out with your friends, but I saw you out with this one and here's a picture that's not me. They must have photoshoped it. You know how much they hate me. I hate that kind of stuff, right, But again, the bigger ones that are kind of like the hallmarks of this is you're crazy, you're losing your mind, you know you need help, or you know, you take their phone and you start going through it and you find something and then they throw it back on you and make you feel and then before you know what, you're apologizing for going through their phone because you're crazy in your psycho that. 00:16:02 Speaker 1: Kind of stuff, right, So what do you do if you suspect that you are in a relationship with someone who is a narcissist or somebody who is gaslighting it, what do you actually do? 00:16:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where you have to be very careful and very safe because we know from the research that one it takes about seven times on average for somebody to leave a relationship like this seven seven. 00:16:26 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:16:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is not easy for numerous reasons. They're tied financially, they're tied with kids, and the family courts with custody do not favor the healthy parent, which is a whole other issue, and so they're really kind of locked in there. So you want to first make sure that you have somebody on the outside that you can confide in, and when you've been isolated for so long, that can be really difficult. So I always tell family and friends whatever you do is man as you may get it. Then for going back and going back, just know that they need you at some point and just tell them I love you, I'll be there for you. That's the nice because at some point they're gonna need you. Find somebody that you can confide in, somebody that you can trust. Know that you will never feel ready to leave. You will never never feel super strong and ready to leave. You're gonna have to do this and feel scared to death. You want to make sure that you have everything you possibly can lined up for your escape, meaning somebody to stay with, access to funds, a prepaid calling card, a prepaid credit card, you know, have a to go back in your car with your passport and

your license, any important documents, your medicines, all of that kind of stuff, just just to have it. Those are the practical things that people really need to have in place first before they even make any kind of psychological effort. 00:17:48 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's so. I mean, it's a lot. It's like you really have to be ready and willing. I mean, that's understandable. Why it takes so long? I mean, and you know, I was going to ask why is this so hard for people to leave these relationships? But I mean I think we just you just and. 00:18:07 Speaker 2: Also when particularly for women but men too, but when you leave, that's the highest rate for physical violence is when you're leaving or if they hear that you're leaving. So you have to be really careful. 00:18:19 Speaker 1: Right, So in I am Elizabeth Smart, it's a very different situation where but there is still control and manipulation by her kidnapper and abuser. So how much of this behavior, especially all the religious doctrine that he spews out. How much of that would you say is narcissism? 00:18:42 Speaker 2: Yeah, a significant chunk of it, because if you look at the way in which he manipulates her and also his wife, you know right that it's very very much this intense coercive control, intense isolation from everybody in the world basically, right, So it's just his doctrine, it's just his words that they have to exist by. So it's very much control based, it's very much power based. We see this a lot in cult dynamics, you know, and it begs the question, you know, he thinks he's a prophet. When you're at that extreme, Yes, when you are that grandiose, yeah, you people will believe that. They will believe that story. Now, how much of his own preachings does he believe? Who knows? It may not necessarily matter. What matters is that he has isolated them so much, scared them so much that their ability to leave it's like they don't even it's not even an option. It becomes something they don't even think about or consider. 00:19:45 Speaker 1: Right, it's not actually a part of reality. So right, so do people in those situations like Elizabeth, they start to adapt in ways that outsiders, people like you and I we might not understand. 00:19:59 Speaker 2: Yes, right, yes, And that's why it's so confusing for people who leave these relationships, whether it's an abusive intimate relationship, a family member, or cult, whatever the case may be. It is so difficult for other people to say, like, why wouldn't you just leave? But what they're forgetting is that if there's actual neurological changes that occur in your brain, right, there's actual cognitive changes that occur in your brain that make it impossible to see otherwise. 00:20:26 Speaker 1: Right, So what like in Elizabeth Smart's case, she was captive for nine months? So what happens psychologically when somebody is controlled for that long? 00:20:34 Speaker 2: Yeah? So one is your your fight or flight response, right, which is what we have to innately keep us alive and survive. When you're in those types of environments, you kind of go on to this freeze mode, right, And it's a form of self protection. And so when you're in that freeze mode, you don't act, and so we see that a lot unfortunately in sexual assaults. Right, White people don't fight back. It's their body literally does what their body thinks is the best thing to do to protect them in that moment. And so when you have that response coupled with if you leave, I'll kill you. Your family doesn't love you, nobody's looking for you, right, you're so limited in your in your response options, and then neurologically, your brain starts to reset itself for survival. It's all you can do. And so you're you're you're basically resetting yourself for survival. So your options become really only what your brain can allow you. 00:21:34 Speaker 1: To think of. 00:21:34 Speaker 2: And that's why people feel stuck and why so hard for other people I get. 00:21:39 Speaker 1: To get it right right, It literally changes the reality of your own reality. So what is the is there or is there a moment or a point where the those survival instincts really do take over and then it changes how they respond, like what is that? Is that a is that a particular moment or Yeah? 00:22:06 Speaker 2: So when I work with people who are in these relationships, the I would say that the biggest thing, the biggest light switched moment that I have with people is once they are able to and this takes a long time, but once they're able to see the patterns. Because here's the one thing the playbook of a narcissistic dynamic is so obvious once you see it. It is so textbook, and so for one of the most destructive styles out there, it really is the most predictable. And so once a survivor sees those patterns, you absolutely one cannot unsee it. And so once they're able to not only predict the behavior, but know what it is and know why it's happening, then they start to be caught untouchable and they slowly start to if this is them with the narcissists, right, and they slowly start to separate, allowing them to see it for what it is, and that's when you really want to start to make your moves at that point, right right, it's a very in therapy at least, it's a very AHA moment for people because it gives them so much empowerment in that moment to know that, oh my god, wait, this has nothing to do with me. This is a pattern. Okay, so I know when I do this, they're going to do this, so I know how I need to respond to this, and before you know it, that understanding of that blueprint is what actually gives you the ability to eventually leave. 00:23:41 Speaker 1: I mean that's what Elizabeth Smart actually did, where she manipulates him and says, yes, I think God is telling us to go back to Utah and put it sort of into his hands. God's telling you to do this because you're or the one that needs And then he says, oh, you're right, that is what we should do. I mean it's

really incredible. 00:24:07 Speaker 2: You make them think it was their idea. You make them think that you need them, You make them think that you know that they're in control of you. Once you see that and you can twist it, then you can start to separate yourself. 00:24:20 Speaker 3: Right. 00:24:35 Speaker 1: So are there warning signs, even in less extreme situations that control is escalating in a dangerous way. 00:24:43 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I like to start from I call it preventive medicine. I like to start from the very beginning. So if you're on a date with somebody, or you meet somebody in business, or you meet a new friend, and you start to see the behaviors like love bombing. Right, So the non stop calling, make plans, they seem to just get you so quickly. If you hear the word you're my soulmate, you run for the hills. I put that out as a blanket statement. You know, they don't even know your middle name, but yet somehow you're their soulmate. If you start doing things like you're planning your wedding and it's how cute, and we're gonna name our kids this, this and this and this is gonna be our dog and no, because that's not our You don't know anybody well enough to be their soulmate, right, You don't know anyone yet. You don't know how they operate, you don't know how they argue, and so those are red flags from the very beginning. And the way I tell people to check is tell the person that you're stick one day. And I used to get so much crap for this, But tell the person you're sick and you need to cancel plans, and see what their response is. Do they ghost you? Do they get angry at you? Do they show up at your house anyway with flowers and soup and say, I you know, I'm here to make you feel better? 00:25:54 Speaker 1: Well? 00:25:54 Speaker 2: How do they respond? 00:25:55 Speaker 1: Right? 00:25:56 Speaker 2: Yeah? Right? 00:25:57 Speaker 1: Do they hear what you're saying, which is I am not well, I'm going to rest today, I don't I don't want to be together? 00:26:04 Speaker 2: Yes? 00:26:05 Speaker 1: Right? Yes? 00:26:06 Speaker 2: See how they talk to waiters and waitresses. See how they talk to talk about their exes? 00:26:14 Speaker 1: Right? 00:26:14 Speaker 2: How do they talk about their family? Do they have friends? Like all these little things that when things are so good, you may not really pay attention to, right. 00:26:25 Speaker 1: So okay, So thinking about someone like Joe Exotic and Joe V. Carroll, So he is this person who's very charismatic in a in a very unique sort of a way, but is also very controlling. And is that a common combination with narcissism. 00:26:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, So within within narcissism and that cliga, in that cluster of personality disorders, oftentimes we see this kind of histrionic which is that very just you know, as you said, just kind of this ridiculous. 00:26:57 Speaker 1: Performative and demonstrative. 00:27:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, we we see that a lot with certain types of narcissists, not all, but but that's that's common. Yes, Now, does that automatically align with being controlling? No, it doesn't, it doesn't. But but again, it's not uncommon to see those kind of those things overlap. But but but alone by itself doesn't mean that they're narcissistic, and a narcissist alone by themselves won't mean they're necessarily histrionic in that respect. 00:27:27 Speaker 1: Right, Well, so how do you know when manipulation is happening versus just a difficult personality? Yes, sometimes my husband might say I'm a difficult personality. 00:27:41 Speaker 2: Mine never says. 00:27:44 Speaker 1: He'll be wrong, but he obviously. 00:27:49 Speaker 2: What do they mean? No? So, so, so here's here's the here's the real difference in those is that Again, as I said before, we all grew up with patterns, either patterns that we modeled from our caregivers or patterns that we did in opposition to our caregivers. But the way we are in our world up till a certain point really is based on our development. We do the things we do because the patterns. We are experts at our patterns. We can do our patterns the best out of anybody else. And so we may be difficult, but not narcissistic. If just our patterns annoy other people or they just don't make for the easiest relationships, that doesn't mean you're a narcissist. It just may mean you have toxic in our personal patterns or you're using in our personal patterns. It worked great for you growing up, and that's how you got through it, and that's how you survived fast forward into adulthood when that context is no longer present. But yet we're still using the same inner personal styles. We're gonna feel like we start to hit a wall. That's not narcissism. That's not that, because it's with this is if your husband sat you down and said to you, listen, when you do this. In this, you're hurting me. Right, You're gonna feel horrible. You're not gonna want to do it. Will It be hard and difficult to change, of course, But that's different. The purpose of your behaving, the way you're behaving, has nothing to do with gaining control, access, and manipulation to him. It's just about this is how you ask for your needs to be met or this is all you know, and you can change that. With a narcissist, however, their actions, the function, or the underlying reason behind everything they do is always going to be about control, power and dominance over another person. Always. It's just dressed up in various ways brought to their attention. What are you talking about? You know you're crazy. I didn't do that. That's not what I said. All the gas lighting type things, right, you need help? You know you do this with everybody, this is why you have no friends, Like why would I hide your phone on purpose? Like what is wrong with you? That kind of stuff. So they have no intention of changing. Ever, they have no remorse, they have no empathy, and their goal is to control and manipulate you, not because this is all they know. But when

brought to their attention, they don't want to be like this anymore. 00:30:19 Speaker 1: Right, So I was going to ask, can narcissists actually love someone in a healthy way? But it sounds like that's a no. 00:30:27 Speaker 2: They can't. And you know, I know there's people say I get this all the time, like you're a psychologist, how could you say this? That's so horrible. Everybody can change and you're stigmatizing that. 00:30:36 Speaker 1: I'm not. 00:30:37 Speaker 2: I'm just reporting the behaviors. And I can tell you that in all my years of practicing I have I have never seen a narcissist change, only never. The only times I have ever seen a narcissist change is when they're pretending they have changed because they need to get something from family court, or because they need to get out of some sort of trouble, or they're trying to reconcile with their ex because they want to get back in and control them. They they have cognitive empathy, which means they know how they're supposed to feel and they know what they're supposed to think. So they're able to mimic it, but they don't feel it and they don't think it. 00:31:26 Speaker 1: It's still to get the result that they want. Yes, yes, Oh my god, that is so intense. 00:31:32 Speaker 2: They know they know what they're doing. And that's the hardest pill for people to swallow, because then we have to accept, oh my god, they're willingly evil, right like, they're willingly hurting me, they're willingly abusing me what like. And so I know a lot of people have a hard time with that. I understand why, but I and I think if you spoke to my colleagues they would say the same thing, that the likelihood of somebody changing is it's very slimple what you will find. You have self aware narcissists all the time that are on Instagram social media talking about what it's life like. Is a narcissist and that's not because they've changed. 00:32:09 Speaker 1: Wait is that real? Is that a thing? 00:32:12 Speaker 2: There was a whole like New York Times. I think it was not New York Times, The New Yorker or one of them. There was this huge article with all these famous social media influencers self aware narcissists. Now one or two of them. I follow, not because I think they've feeled, but because hearing their perception of why they do what they do gives me insight as a psychologist. Right right, they haven't. 00:32:38 Speaker 1: Changed, no, and then they're getting attention for it, which is just feeding the fire, feeling the fire exactly exactly. So for someone who's listening, who might be questioning their own relationship, what is one thing they should pay attention to right away? 00:33:08 Speaker 2: Ask themselves what immediately comes up for them in their gut when they think about setting a boundary with this person. And if it's interesting, if it's one of fear, or your body just goes into this like h feeling, or you get you know, it's that overwhelming anxiety, that's something to pay attention to. 00:33:32 Speaker 1: That's such a good that is such a good gauge. 00:33:36 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you know what would happen if you went outside the general status quo that the narcissists set for you. I'm going to go out with my friends tonight. What happens? Right? Do you come home? And the doors locked. Do you come home your closer outside. Do they call you non stop the whole entire night to ruin the night just because they don't have control over you anymore? Do they feign sickness? Like what what happens? 00:34:01 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah? So what is one myth about narcissism or gaslighting that you really want people to stop believing. 00:34:11 Speaker 2: That narcissists are attracted to weak people? They are nuts. They are attracted to very smart, successful, attractive, strong people. And the reason for that, Yeah, the reason for that is because and this still to this day it gives me chills on the back of my neck when I explain this, But a narcissist's whole aim is to gain power and control over somebody else. Their primary goal is to suck this person dry of their entire sense of self until they are nothing, which is why suicide rates are oddly higher within these types of dynamics, because the person is just just vaporized, so to speak. You can't get all of that from somebody who starts out with low self esteem. There's nowhere for them to fall, and so they take everything that this person has that they want. They take everything their success, their intelligence, their energy, all of it and just suck them dry until there's nothing left. If they start with somebody that has low self esteem, well they don't get anything from that. Their goal is to watch them fall by the time the relationship has progressed or is at the end of the relationship. Now we see somebody who has no self esteem, right, sense of self, no identity. But that's because of the relationship. 00:35:29 Speaker 1: That wasn't the industry, right, that's not how they began. 00:35:32 Speaker 2: No, they are drawn towards people that are empathetic, yes, absolutely, but they are not drawn to weak people or people with low self esteem. So I think that's a huge myth that people. 00:35:42 Speaker 1: Oh so, once someone has experienced this kind of relationship, then how do they rebuild that trust in themselves. 00:35:51 Speaker 2: It's really hard. It's a really long long process because not only do they have to you know, I think one of the saddest things I have ever heard from a patient after she got out of the relationship was, you know, she said to me, She's like, I gotta be honest. She goes, I have no idea who I am. I feel like a shell of my former self, which we hear all the time. She goes I don't even know what kind of ice cream I like. 00:36:15 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:36:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it breaks you down so much that you don't even know. You don't even know what music you like. You don't know what kind of movies you like, you don't know what's your favorite color,

you don't know how you like to dress, and so you have to totally rebuild yourself and it's a really long process, and you doubt yourself and you don't trust people, and it really is a level of trauma that is really really deep. And I don't think people understand that. And I think the worst. I don't know if it's worse. I guess it's the way you look at it. Those are intimate relationships. Think about growing up with a narcissistic parent. You never had a sense of identity. You were always told who to be. So if you cut ties from a narcissic family member, now you're really starting from scratch. You don't have a pre existing you. So it depends on the relationship type. But I will say this, it is not all doom of bloom. It is very hard, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and once you get that empowerment and once you're able to figure out who you are and who you want to be and what you want to shift, and you realize that's totally in your control. Then you really start to feel strong. And I have never met people stronger in my life than people who have survived narcissistic abuse. They are. 00:37:30 Speaker 1: I mean, that's so interesting because I've been so struck by the people that, like Elizabeth Smart and I interviewed Sarah Edmonton who was in the next same called, and you know, people that have overcome these things and turned them into something powerful and meaning. It is like these women, especially those are the ones I've spoken to. They've all been women Amanda Knox, you know, a different situation but still gone through something so intensely tragic. And the power that these people have that is really it's just a centered, grounded, extraordinary thing like that. I am just so impressed by. 00:38:22 Speaker 2: I could not agree more. I could not agree more. And I tell them when they get to that point and you can look at this and feel so almost I don't recognize that person, you know, And you'll get to that point and you'll know that you've feeled but I could not agree with you more. It's the strongest people I have ever encountered in my life. 00:38:42 Speaker 1: Wow. Okay, I'm at doctor Jamie. This has been amazing you. I have thoroughly enjoyed this. You are a wealth of knowledge and so articulate, and I feel like this is a really will an incredible challenging topic. You're you talk about it in a way that's very digestible. Pieces that are there, they're they're applicable and you know, understandable. So I really appreciate this and your time. So you can get in touch with doctor Zuckerman. You could buy her books, learn about her coaching and therapy services on her website doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com, or visit her YouTube channel at doctor Jamie Zuckerman. It's j A, I M E. Jamie. Thank you so much for your time today. Is there anything else you want to say? 00:39:36 Speaker 2: No, just thank you for talking about this topic. It's it's so important, especially you know, with everything being watered down about it. So I'm really, you know, just thankful for you for doing this. You'll help a lot of people. So thank you. 00:39:48 Speaker 1: Great, my pleasure. It's been wonderful to meet you. Thank you so much.