TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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Progress over perfection.
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Progress over perfection every time.
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Welcome to Reading Realities, a podcast about what it takes to teach reading.
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I'm your host, Rose Else - Mitchell, Executive Director of the Science and Reading Center at SUNY New Paltz.
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Today I'm joined by Suellen Piercey, a K-6 literacy coach serving schools across St.
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Lawrence-Lewis counties in upstate New York.
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Suellen has spent more than 35 years supporting students with reading challenges across a wide range of educational settings.
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In our conversation, she shares how an FMRI of her own daughter's brain, analyzed by world-renowned professor Dr.
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Sally Shaywitz at Yale University and the author of Overcoming Dyslexia, made Sue llen question everything she thought she knew about teaching reading.
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She shares why she loves supporting teachers today through change and with trust, and by building systems that can sustain improvement long after she has left the building.
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Let's get started.
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I'm really thrilled to be able to talk about the work that you've been doing in New York, and you've spent your entire career working with students that struggle to read.
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I'd love to kind of wind the clock back a little bit and look back maybe at the early years of that work.
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And maybe you could share a little bit about where you started and what you what you originally believed about how children learn to read.
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Well, it started quite a few years ago now, without dating myself, but um I had some unique opportunities to begin with.
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I worked at the St.
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Lawrence Psychiatric Center.
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So I was really working with special ed students that were very needy, um, and especially academically.
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I moved into a public school system about eight years later as a resource room teacher and part of a consultant teacher mode for reading and writing.
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Then before I retired, I had spent about 25 years in the Ogdensburg City School District working as a reading specialist in grades K through six.
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So I've had some pretty diverse educational settings over my career, which I feel has been very beneficial for the students because I've really gained a lot of different experiences.
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Yeah.
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You've seen it all, really.
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Tell me a little bit about the psychiatric context and what was happening there in terms of the students you were working with and the challenges.
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We had to get over a lot of the obstacles of if it was behavior, emotional, instability, family life.
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So sometimes learning to read and write was secondary.
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And because we had to, we really had to focus on that.
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And some of these kids are the ones that were in crisis that weren't even able to attend public school.
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So that gave me a really good insight of all the different things that are going on in a person's or a child's mind.
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And I think a lot of educators will agree is that we're now seeing some of these critical cases are showing up in our classrooms.
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We have to sometimes focus a little bit sometimes on the emotional aspect of students before we can even get to the academic.
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So one of your previous people that have come onto your podcast is talking about Finding Focus and some of the things that are giving her traction through that book.
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I do think that with the science of reading and the combination of bringing on the MTSS programs, we are going to start to see a lot more of that ability to be able to combine and interweave some of our strategies that are going on in the public school system to best meet our students' issues and help give them that traction so that they can focus better when it comes to their academic careers.
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Yeah, it's so connected, isn't it?
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I mean, how you feel about your teacher, whether you feel safe at school, how you feel about your identity as a learner or as a reader, I mean, that is as significant.
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We have less research around that because research is often so siloed, and I think that's one of the areas where I feel that science of reading, as it's defined as an interdisciplinary body of work is so important because that includes psychoanalysis, it includes, you know, social, emotional, and it includes the linguistic, the cognitive, the non-cognitive, all of those aspects that are present in students as we try and teach them how to read.
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And I think one of the strongest things that I'm feeling up here in St.
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Lawrence-Lewis County is that now that I'm working as a literacy coach, I'm really starting to see the needle move because people are starting to be able to encapture everything about the student, not just what we need to do to move the needle in reading.
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And some of those things are really hard for us to address when it comes to that social-emotional aspect.
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With the science of reading, I've really been pushing the sound walls, vowel valleys, getting rid of some of the wallpaper that looks
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pretty, and things that will take away from the student's ability to focus.
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Can you take us back to what you what you originally understood about reading?
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Well, I'm coming from a college that was whole language, and then we sort of went away from whole language to like the balanced literacy.
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So you are going to learn a lot more from my road rash and all of the mistakes I've made than you are from my successes.
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I've gotten over being embarrassed about saying like some of the things I was doing, like rote memorization of sight words, of guided reading, of leveled reading.
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I really didn't know that I was doing things wrong until it was a personal problem that I was facing with my daughter when she was in third grade.
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And um, that's when she was struggling to read.
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And here I am, a reading specialist, not able to figure it out.
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And I truly believe that if you can't read, you're not gonna go very far.
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Yeah.
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So it was very, very stressful.
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And my two boys were like part of the gifted program.
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They were fine.
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So we weren't understanding what was going on.
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And I was even taking my daughter over to Canada, to Ottawa, to the [Sylvan] Center.
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It was costing us a lot of money.
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I was paying for tutors.
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Sometimes I did the lesson plans, but I made the tutors
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do the teaching, yes.
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Yeah.
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Of course, of course, yeah.
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But there was some research that came out and uh with Dr.
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Shaywitz,, and I had just moved to Ogdensburg, and um I started writing to her and sending her some of my case studies, like what's going on, what is going wrong here?
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And she finally wrote back and invited one of my case studies to come to her place at Yale University.
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And I said, Well, one of the case studies I'm sending you is my daughter, and you go for three days, and um, this was back in 2003, and uh part of the testing for those three days was an FMRI, which we talk about now.
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And Katie was had to go through all of that, but after three days of testing, it came back that she wasn't dyslexic, it was just how we were teaching her wasn't right.
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Wow.
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So Dr.
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Sally Shaywitz, who's one of the, you know, world experts on dyslexia, her book dyslexia in the brain is something I looked at probably around the same time that you were working with her.
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I mean, that's a that's a pretty big shift from, you know, leveled passages, etc., for reading to an understanding through looking at your child's brain that she hasn't been taught to read.
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How did how did that feel?
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That must have been like a whiplash.
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It definitely was a whiplash.
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But at that point, being the parent, whatever she said, and I had the prescription.
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So I did exactly what she said.
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And we went in April, and by June, Katie scored out of even what we called back then title reading.
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And it took about three months and um a lot of coaching and teaching on her part, and we were able to get her up.
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And because I'm the helicopter mom, she stayed in AIS reading until like sixth grade.
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And um, we still had to go back to Yale to be evaluated because they needed that for their research.
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I'm sure that Kate Katie's part of those studies that are coming out from Yale to sort of see like, does it make a difference?
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So how we were teaching Kate how to read with memorizing flashcards with sight words, and she just couldn't handle that cognitive load.
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We weren't teaching her that phonemic awareness.
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Like I had to like drop right back into phonemic awareness.
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Yes, she does have a mom as a reading teacher, but to go from I'm gonna place her into a resource room under a special ed umbrella to not needing help from April until June, that was shocking to me.
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That's where um I also want to share with the like the teachers that I'm working with, especially some of the teachers that are more veteran or more seasoned.
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You know, they're always like everything comes around Suellen, you know, that 30 years, you know, every 20 years it comes back around.
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So sometimes when I'm trying to get them to jump on the bandwagon of science of reading, they're a little bit hesitant because they think that it's just something.
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I took out the FMRI of Katie.
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Like, listen, this research was there.
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It's progressively gotten better over the years,
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yeah
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but it's been there.
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We just haven't been using it to its fullest potential.
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And again, with sold a story, we were sold a story.
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Thank goodness some of the researchers out there
continue to do the good research so that we are now able to use that to drive our instruction and what we're doing in our classrooms.
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And I think we've got you had a unique experience in being able to connect the practice of how your daughter was learning to read or not learning to read to the research and to Dr.
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Shaywitz's kind of radical approach thinking about the brain.
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But generally it takes us a much longer time to be able to make those connections between research and practice.
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And I think sometimes when people say, Well, what is the science of reading?
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or, you know, how is it different?
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I think there's a macro point here, which is that it's really bridging research to practice much more closely and in an ongoing way.
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And so even having a micro-credential as we do, we want to keep updating it and bringing more knowledge to classroom teachers.
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We did actually just do um an update and we've we've added a section around oral language and not not just the role of phonemic awareness and orality, but expressive and receptive language and that being a core structure for building language comprehension, which is is one of the necessary sides of the simple view of reading equation.
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So that work that you're doing and that you were immersed in, where you had this extraordinary research insight and practice with your daughter, is life-changing, obviously was life-changing for her.
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How did that then affect the work that you did as a reading specialist?
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What changed and how quickly?
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So I was able to take those processes, I was then incorporating them into my own title classroom or AIS.
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So those are some of the things that were able to move the needle for my students so that I sort of could see where it was going.
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It was heavy.
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The heaviness was that the district wasn't doing the buy-in.
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It was working around 20 years in a campus that really didn't buy into the science of reading.
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And they were on a different train at that point in time.
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They were doing a lot of, it was like running records, looking for visual cues.
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Some of the data that we were using really was just data.
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And everybody was on this big race to get students to level I or level P, depending on whatever grade level we were.
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Right.
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And that was one of the things that we were promoted to do.
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Like, all right, do you
know at every level what you should be looking at and what you should be looking for?
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And it was sort of like you could memorize all those rules, but when then you're working with a student who's trying to nail jello to a wall.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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You can't see inside the student's brain.
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And do you think they can do theme?
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There wasn't enough reading to the writing aspect to show what the students were able to do.
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So again, it was it was very heavy.
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And some of the things um I was more or less told not to do. Um
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like what were you told not to do?
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Towards the end, the vowel valley, the um sound wall, I did them up on cardboard, those three, you know, you open them up in things, and I hid them so that when I was working with my groups, I would be able to bring them out.
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I was using them, but then I would fold it up and I would put it away so that I wasn't gonna get caught.
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What would have happened if you got caught?
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What was the objection to something like the Vowel Valley, which is about, for those of you who aren't as familiar, the exact placements of your mouth or children's mouths when we're making particular vowel sounds from the most closed to the most open, the valley goes up and down.
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Those of you who are watching on YouTube, you can see me doing a hand gesture.
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And those of you that are not, you'll just have to imagine the Vowel Valley is exactly like a V, so it goes up and down, like an upside-down mountain.
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So what what would have happened?
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I think that I probably would have been spoken to.
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I know that I would have been.
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And the philosophy is that we all are on the same page.
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So if we are all doing, as I said, a specific curriculum, then you stick with that curriculum.
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Right, right.
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Which which is fine because we we want coherence, but it does mean that the curriculum has to be based on what we know in the evidence, right?
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Absolutely.
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That would have been one of my fears is that I would have been nailed for not sticking to protocol.
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And the the idea is not necessarily the Vowel Valley was bad in and of itself, it's just that it wasn't part of what you were doing.
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Yes.
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And what everybody else was doing.
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So it felt incoherent.
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And which I guess if if you buy into this is how kids learn to read, and you guess and you use cues, and you go through the the three queuing system and all that, I guess that makes sense.
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It's like, well, you either don't need this or it's quote unquote wrong, or it's not what everyone else is doing.
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And I mean, those are sort of valid points, except that it's just actually not true about about sounds and sound spellings and and understanding the structure of language as a sort of core component for explicit instruction, especially in K through K through three.
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Right.
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So I'm assuming that there's a lot of other people, a lot of other educators that are feeling that heavy load that they want to they want to make some changes, follow the science of reading, but we all have to be on the same page.
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Yeah.
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Let's shift a little bit and talk about the move that you made from being a reading specialist, teaching kids yourself, teaching small groups, tutoring, really helping every child learn to read as as much as you could and when they're in front of you with the right practices.
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Now you're a coach.
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So can you talk a little bit about how you build trust with teachers?
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Because as you teachers are given a lot of different things all the time, and they're told, now do this, don't do that.
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And I think a lot of teachers feel like, you know, this is just one more thing and then it'll switch back.
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So, how do you build trust with teachers that this is something that's sticking around?
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One of the first things I did was focus on relationships.
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They needed to know me as a person, they needed to know where I was coming from.
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And I think too, when they saw me first as a mom and going through this, because we all know our children are our hearts, right?
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So they knew that feeling.
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And I think too, the work ethic.
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They needed to know that I was able to get down and dirty with them.
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I'm out there, I will help with the testing.
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I'm gonna be coming to them sometimes saying, look at this, because I don't know this student as well as you do.
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Okay, but I saw this and this.
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So I think that they knew I really was out there for them.
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It just wasn't about improving scores.
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In order to be truly successful with all of our students, it's about building that
culture, that community within the school, and that the teachers feel safe.
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Uh, you really are a coach that that is, you know, we use that phrase, you know, shoulder-to-shoulder coaching, but it's sort of a bit of a cliche.
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But I can really see you in the classroom.
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I haven't seen you, but I can really see you working with teachers in a completely collegial and collaborative way.
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I do hear this from coaches a lot that they are, you know, they have to be invited in.
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And often they won't be invited in because of whether it's union rules or they've teachers feel panicked or paranoid about being written up.
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And there's a real art to making sure that teachers see you as their as their teaching partner, really, right?
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You're not a co-teacher, but you're closer to a mentor teacher than you are an admin.
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I love that.
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But ultimately, you know, you can let go of a coach at some point.
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Absolutely.
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And that's the big thing.
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Like the systems that we are creating, they have to be able to sustain a change in admin, a change in if somebody leaves, like to go to a different job.
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Those are some of the things with the science of reading, along with MTSS.
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Um, and I want to build systems that can withhold a tornado.
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And our students and our teachers are still gonna be safe, secure, and it will the good work will continue to roll on.
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Well, I think that's a pretty good place for us to roll out.
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All right, we're gonna do a bit of rapid fire.
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You can just answer just one word or two word answers and don't think about it.
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It looks like you have both.
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So do you prefer hardcover or paperback?
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Paperback.
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New books or used books?
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Used.
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Audio books or print?
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Print.
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Fiction or non-fiction?
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Nonfiction.
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Yeah, I was seeing that.
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I saw three books and they're all nonfiction.
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Yeah.
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And last question, which is what's one sentence you'd tell to a new teacher who's just starting off this school year about teaching reading?
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Progress over perfection.
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Progress over perfection every time.
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That's great.
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Well, thank you so much for joining us today.
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It's been wonderful talking again, Sue llen.
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And thank you to you and the whole team at St.
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Lawrence-Lewis BOCES, your great partners of the center, and we're excited to see the progress that the region makes.
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Thank you, Suellen, for joining us for this episode of Reading Realities.
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And thank you to all our educators out there listening today.
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Changing reading instruction isn't just about adopting a new curriculum.
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Durable reading instruction is connected to the ever-evolving body of research about how our brains learn to read.
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Suellen's experience as both a mother and a reading specialist illustrates just how powerful that connection can be.
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The meeting with Katie, her daughter, then in third grade, and Dr.
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Shaywitz changed everything about both their reading lives.
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Whether you're a classroom teacher, literacy coach, or a school leader, Suellen's story shows us that progress happens when educators feel supported enough to take risks, to examine evidence together, and to build systems that can withstand change.
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As Suellen says, the goal isn't perfection, it's progress.
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If you'd like to learn more about our work at the center or share your story on a future episode of Reading Realities, you can reach us at scienceofreading at newpaltz.edu.
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You'll also find that information in the show notes.
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We always love to hear from you.
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If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe so you don't miss what's coming next and share it with a colleague or an educator in your life.
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And if you could take a moment to rate and review the show, it would really help us reach more educators doing this important work in reading.
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Thanks for listening.
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See you next time.