Full Transcript for Lifelong Learning, Challenging Conversations, and Reenergizing Business: Insights from the Forest School Podcast

Lewis and Gemma. 00:02:11.444 --> 00:02:21.704 Now just a heads up that if you haven't done that, then this episode is not going to make much sense to you at all, because what you're about to listen to here is the last half of our chat together. 00:02:21.704 --> 00:02:26.850 So again, if you haven't listened to the first half, please go and jump over to the Forest School podcast. 00:02:26.850 --> 00:02:29.836 But for now let's set a little context. 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:48.587 Lewis Ames and Gemma Southerden are both former teachers who've gone into business together to focus on what they're passionate about giving children and families meaningful learning and play experiences in the great outdoors Sound familiar Since becoming qualified forest school leaders and starting with a few small groups. 00:02:48.587 --> 00:02:53.311 Children of the Forest is now a well-loved part of the Mid Devon community in the UK. 00:02:53.311 --> 00:02:56.962 They also host their own podcast called the Forest School Podcast. 00:02:56.962 --> 00:03:02.587 So when Lewis came up with the idea of us experimenting a little and both hosting half of our interview each. 00:03:02.587 --> 00:03:04.235 We jumped at the chance. 00:03:04.235 --> 00:03:08.668 So, if you haven't already, the first half of this interview is over on the Forest School podcast. 00:03:09.008 --> 00:03:33.753 but we are about to jump straight into the last half of our interview now, so hope you enjoy I was going to ask Nikki, one of the notes that I had was thinking about you know, we're all pulling all this information from different places and all these kind of different topics and, like I said about, like there's no real area that you couldn't go kind of super interested in this. 00:03:33.753 --> 00:03:51.622 I was wondering about, like, whether we had any thoughts on how we go about learning outside of our own, like echo chambers or algorithms, or like I know for mine that you know the way that the online world kind of works is like the more you're, there's a cat purring right into the microphone. 00:03:51.681 --> 00:03:53.265 Sorry, luna, luna, go away. 00:03:53.265 --> 00:03:57.705 Luna's like you're hard, it's kind of like having a so relaxing. 00:03:58.167 --> 00:03:59.450 It was the loudest purr. 00:04:02.920 --> 00:04:06.692 It's the most calming noise, though, too do you know cats have different purrs? 00:04:07.621 --> 00:04:11.449 I know that they can, they can when they're in like real bad pain and stuff. 00:04:11.449 --> 00:04:13.141 Yeah, and it helps them to recover. 00:04:13.502 --> 00:04:17.232 And then there's like a feeding purr and there's a like I was listening to. 00:04:17.232 --> 00:04:27.422 I think there's like seven different types of purr, point being what I was gonna say, what I was gonna say was because they thought that purring was just for humans. 00:04:27.422 --> 00:04:29.728 You know, cats don't vocalize when there's no humans around. 00:04:29.728 --> 00:04:35.170 But

they do purr when there's no humans around, so they're like there must be something right. 00:04:35.170 --> 00:04:39.062 Focus a minute, lewis um I was trying to work. 00:04:39.341 --> 00:04:45.307 No, this is how we get our information connect, connecting with like-minded humans yeah, but I'm not a reliable source. 00:04:45.928 --> 00:04:56.886 Um, how do we, uh, how do we, how do we find things out that are outside of our own, like echo chambers or bubbles or algorithms or you know? 00:04:56.886 --> 00:05:09.706 You can very easily online just be shown like, look, I love, I love the wildlings social media, but the amount of your stuff that I get shown, mate, it's fully in my algorithm. 00:05:09.706 --> 00:05:12.071 And how do we go about? 00:05:12.071 --> 00:05:14.461 Finding other bits, you know. 00:05:15.904 --> 00:05:18.891 Yeah, well, well done to our marketing team. 00:05:18.891 --> 00:05:19.853 Well done, kerry. 00:05:19.853 --> 00:05:20.456 Thank you. 00:05:20.456 --> 00:05:24.567 I'm not sure you're our right target market, but that's okay. 00:05:24.567 --> 00:05:26.350 You've at least got the interest right. 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:31.488 Demographic location we're a bit off Wrong country. 00:05:31.488 --> 00:06:02.444 Oh, I know I hear you on the algorithm and it's something I'm really trying to teach my own children and our own team members as well, that we actively on our own social media, go out and try and find on purpose forest schools, you know, run by people of colour, of different cultures, in different countries, because Sunshine Coast here is unfortunately very whitey, whitey, whitey, very, very, very privileged. 00:06:02.444 --> 00:06:25.274 We're quite a wealthy area in places around the Sunshine Coast and we've got a really long and painful history here with our First Nations and Torres Strait Islander Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people here, where what we do Forest School we're colonisizers, we're still operating on stolen land here. 00:06:25.274 --> 00:06:39.233 So if we don't contextualize what we're doing and if we don't pay the rent, if we aren't making connections with our local mob here, you know what are we doing, what are we even doing. 00:06:39.233 --> 00:06:45.812 So but if we don't actively look for that outside of our algorithm, we just get fed the same stuff. 00:06:46.100 --> 00:06:51.137 So that is what we try and do and we try and pay the rent. 00:06:51.137 --> 00:07:02.690 Really, we hire, you know, people to come in and teach us about culture, teach us about ochre, teach us the stories of our land, teach us about the landmarks and the stories behind them of the dream time. 00:07:02.690 --> 00:07:07.391 But it can be difficult to break out of that algorithm. 00:07:07.391 --> 00:07:08.646 How do you guys find it? 00:07:11.221 --> 00:07:28.324 Well, I think I try whenever I can to, if something gets shown to me that is maybe slightly on the fringe of what still within you know what my phone believes are my interests, but it's on the fringe of what still within you know my what my phone believes are my interests, but it's on the fringe of that bit. 00:07:28.324 --> 00:07:31.012 It's like I was shown something the other day and it was so. 00:07:31.012 --> 00:07:46.622 I think the link it had made was about storytelling, um, but it was actually showing me a couple who make a podcast about pan-african mythology and storytelling, and so I was like that's interesting, that's piqued my interest. 00:07:46.622 --> 00:07:48.788 I'm gonna go to go off on this entire tangent Now. 00:07:48.788 --> 00:07:59.430 I'm going to follow as many you know, I'm going to click through hashtags that I can see in there and I'm going to go that's so different and so like valid. 00:07:59.430 --> 00:08:00.812 I'm so glad that that exists. 00:08:00.812 --> 00:08:03.826 I'm going to go find more out about that stuff. 00:08:04.547 --> 00:08:30.004 I think also one of the benefits that we have, uh and I I know, nikki, you do some homemade groups, so you might have a similar thing, but, um, when I think you would agree that a lot of what we end up doing is this, like with the kids particularly is like this reciprocal exchange of hyper focuses where you sort of go, hey, here's all of mine. 00:08:30.004 --> 00:08:33.671 And then the kids go, well, buckle up, because here's pokemon. 00:08:33.671 --> 00:08:36.705 And then you, you can ingest that stuff. 00:08:36.705 --> 00:08:38.371 Or someone comes in and goes, do you know what? 00:08:38.371 --> 00:08:41.142 I live on a farm, on a stud farm, with a load of horses. 00:08:41.142 --> 00:08:45.452 I go, wow, let's do that, then let's, let's go and tell me all about that. 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:58.412 Let's set that thing up and like or um, you know we have our young families group and you know I had a parent who's a geological systems like backup thing. 00:08:58.412 --> 00:09:09.486 He makes sure that in the event of emergencies like flash flooding and stuff, that power still gets to like the northwest of the UK, and I was like, mate, tell me about that. 00:09:09.486 --> 00:09:20.085 I didn't like sat down and went like this, is it you're just going to tell me everything about your job now and all of these things, because I have no frame of reference for this and that's incorrect. 00:09:20.085 --> 00:09:20.547 Do you do? 00:09:20.547 --> 00:09:21.048 Do you do that? 00:09:21.048 --> 00:09:22.760 You must do that one with the parents. 00:09:22.760 --> 00:09:25.187 Oh yeah absolutely, absolutely. 00:09:25.227 --> 00:09:32.668 In terms of I love um people info dumping on me about stuff that maybe I've never heard of or it's never piqued my interest. 00:09:32.668 --> 00:09:33.653 I'm like I'm here for that. 00:09:33.653 --> 00:09:42.764 I'd much rather have someone completely talk at me about something that's interesting to them than spend the same amount of time going oh, it's nice weather, isn't it? 00:09:42.764 -->

00:09:44.567 Oh yeah, I've got to pick up my kids later. 00:09:44.626 --> 00:09:49.023 Oh yeah, oh god I wish I brought the washing in, because it's going to wreck all that sort of small talk. 00:09:49.023 --> 00:09:54.865 I'd much rather have the like the info rich stuff, even if it's about something really left field. 00:09:54.865 --> 00:10:04.510 I was also going to say, um, in terms of kind of finding stuff that's outside the algorithm, I quite enjoy, uh, even though it feels prickly sometimes engaging with stuff that challenges your practice. 00:10:04.510 --> 00:10:16.721 So there's been um like there are several practitioners who write blogs about quite political aspects of forest school and education and there's, uh, just a new zine that's come out recently. 00:10:16.721 --> 00:10:18.625 So that's like actual, actual paper. 00:10:18.625 --> 00:10:22.160 You pay and you just pay for the postage, and it's anonymous. 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.447 The people who are creating it are it's called ruderal, um, and so I'll call that. 00:10:26.447 --> 00:10:39.140 And, because it's anonymous, it's a forum in which people should feel free to express, yeah, more challenging points of view or questions that challenge the status quo. 00:10:39.140 --> 00:10:43.206 And, um, it's about, yeah, forest school for kind of social change. 00:10:43.206 --> 00:10:56.083 So I really I enjoyed that and I'm so pleased to see things like that springing up and I really want to kind of contribute and help that it's so interesting, isn't it? 00:10:56.144 --> 00:11:00.082 that I really love that idea of a forum. 00:11:00.082 --> 00:11:03.105 That's anonymous because, like you said, the sticky the sticky things come out. 00:11:03.105 --> 00:11:10.272 And that's anonymous because, like you said, the sticky things come out and that's really the nuts and bolts of what we should all be talking about. 00:11:10.272 --> 00:11:16.365 We need to get uncomfortable in our spaces because you know the way we're set up. 00:11:16.365 --> 00:11:23.009 Here we don't run mostly we don't run out of schools or we don't have a forest school attached to a nursery or whatnot. 00:11:23.009 --> 00:11:39.388 So a lot of us are private businesses or we're run through childcare centres or early years services and a lot of people will not touch these subjects for fear of being called out for making a mistake. 00:11:40.662 --> 00:11:48.370 And particularly, what I'm talking here is about our awful history and the way that we then go about working on country. 00:11:48.370 --> 00:11:58.688 Here we are going to make mistakes because there is so much language that has been lost, there is so much history that has been lost with our stolen generations. 00:11:58.688 --> 00:12:06.946 Here it is likely we're going to make mistakes despite our best efforts, and we can't tiptoe around because of our white fragility. 00:12:06.946 --> 00:12:20.461 You know, worrying about being tone policed because we've made a mistake and you know we can't be gatekeepers to that knowledge and I'm seeing a lot of that here in Australia is that we're gatekeeping the knowledge for fear of being called out for making a mistake. 00:12:20.461 --> 00:12:29.092 And I do feel like if there was a more anonymous forum where people could ask these questions, that these answers might come out. 00:12:29.092 --> 00:12:31.296 But at the same time that's white fragility. 00:12:31.296 --> 00:12:40.668 I want to call that out and just say ask the damn question, ask the question and be prepared to be called out. 00:12:40.687 --> 00:12:43.961 There's another I'm going to call it a generous read, but I don't think it's a generous read. 00:12:43.961 --> 00:13:16.142 I think it's just another view, view of the same thing, which is, like you know, we've started this podcast by acknowledging that we are people who work for ourselves and we love that, we love learning and we like, we value that super highly in our not just our business lives, but in our personal lives as well, and I think, sometimes, just in the same way that we can like, um, uh, lose sight of where our participants might be and go oh, I need to facilitate where you are. 00:13:16.142 --> 00:13:46.264 There's also so many at least in the UK, so many practitioners who are um in spaces where they either don't have the physical time, they don't have the mental time, they don't have the um, the the capacity to engage in either every issue, or to engage in that cpd, or to engage in all those things that we, we personally, value and have set up our lives in a ways that means that we can. 00:13:46.264 --> 00:14:05.600 I think there's also something about like, how can we and and for women either, podcast is one of these ways, but it's like, how do we who do have the time use that to extend it to people who are in less um, who are set up in different ways, where you can go look, you don't have, you know, for the podcast. 00:14:05.740 --> 00:14:23.288 For us, a lot of it is like look, we appreciate, not everyone either can or wants to read this enormous book about the anthropology of childhood in you know whatever else, but we can chat about that in a silly way for half an hour and make that accessible to people. 00:14:23.288 --> 00:14:43.465 Now trying to think about, like, what other ways can we, as people who are pushing different issues or pushing different learning, how how can we and you know you have the raising wildlings podcast and um and I noticed as well you have some uh like downloadable handouts and stuff on your website to help people reflect on their practice and stuff. 00:14:43.465 --> 00:14:59.192 It's all those ways that we, as privileged people in terms of like learning, can help other people with that yeah, that's so true, and that's exactly why we started the podcast too. 00:14:59.214 --> 00:15:01.720 You know we're getting so many calls, and I'm sure you were the same. 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:09.004 I would love some

help with xyz, and by the time I either answer the phone call or answer the email five or six times. 00:15:09.004 --> 00:15:14.525 I think I should have just recorded something and then we went well, why don't we record something? 00:15:14.525 --> 00:15:19.063 And then it's there, and it's there forever, and it's there for free for anyone, at no cost. 00:15:19.063 --> 00:15:22.613 So thank you for creating a space where you're really. 00:15:22.613 --> 00:15:32.927 You know you are getting into some really beautiful and some at times uncomfortable conversations that people might not want to have, exactly like you said, with their bosses and with their managers. 00:15:32.927 --> 00:15:42.183 They might feel confronting about approaching people about these things, whereas if they come armed with a bit of information, it may help them have those conversations to make change. 00:15:42.183 --> 00:15:50.405 So, kudos, I know it's a hard slog and I know it takes up a lot of time, but I do think the work that you do is really, really valuable. 00:15:51.696 --> 00:15:52.902 Well, it's all come out of arguing. 00:15:58.322 --> 00:16:08.496 I would love to say ours came from an equally benevolent we should people want our help, but actually it came from Wem and I having different thoughts on education and going. 00:16:08.496 --> 00:16:12.628 Well, let's chew it out and see where we land. 00:16:12.628 --> 00:16:14.441 And now, more and more it is about. 00:16:14.441 --> 00:16:25.297 You know, we're on the same page by and large, but still with enough, I think I would say Wem, with enough space that we can say ah, I don't agree with that wholly, or I? 00:16:25.297 --> 00:16:27.101 I'm not sure you've interpreted that. 00:16:27.101 --> 00:16:29.027 In a way I would yeah, absolutely. 00:16:30.775 --> 00:16:31.898 Can I ask you then? 00:16:31.898 --> 00:16:43.605 Can I flip the tables quickly and say how did you two become comfortable with having uncomfortable conversations with each other and disagreeing on what can be really deep-seated values? 00:16:43.605 --> 00:16:50.052 You know, education for some people is really deep-seated, but a lot of people won't have these. 00:16:50.052 --> 00:16:53.923 You know, I wouldn't even call them confrontations, but some people would see them as confrontations. 00:16:53.923 --> 00:16:56.457 So is this a muscle that you've exercised? 00:16:56.457 --> 00:16:59.984 Do you just have the kind of relationship where it's like, ah, bugger it, who cares? 00:16:59.984 --> 00:17:01.547 I think it is. 00:17:01.547 --> 00:17:03.937 How have you got to the place where you can debate? 00:17:04.598 --> 00:17:06.845 yeah, it's partly practice. 00:17:06.845 --> 00:17:15.061 Yeah, just doing it and then and getting emotional and then, yeah, getting back on the horse and doing it again. 00:17:15.061 --> 00:17:26.414 But also I think we've done a lot of reading which has helped our practice as forest school facilitators but also helped our communication with one another. 00:17:26.414 --> 00:17:51.905 So, like reading, non-violent communication, reading about um, declarative language, about ways to communicate which are less emotionally heightened, I would say, and ways about just expressing about, you know stuff, about human needs, just going, you know, I, I statements, I feel this when we discuss this, I feel this when we're delivering this kind of stuff. 00:17:51.905 --> 00:17:53.816 You know, what do you think? 00:17:53.816 --> 00:17:54.998 Would you be willing to do this? 00:17:54.998 --> 00:17:57.865 So I think for me that's been absolutely invaluable. 00:17:57.904 --> 00:18:18.506 I can literally remember having read this is years ago now having read Marshall Rosenberg's Long and Violent Communication book and then digesting that and thinking about it in terms of our practice with the people that we're working with at Forest School, and then I can't remember what we were discussing, lewis, but it's probably a lot of our discussions have been around like how we structure our working week, what sessions do we want to deliver? 00:18:18.506 --> 00:18:19.988 What are your family needs? 00:18:19.988 --> 00:18:21.088 What are your personal needs? 00:18:21.088 --> 00:18:22.356 What are the things you enjoy. 00:18:22.356 --> 00:18:29.825 Do you want to continue with this project, all those kind of tricky business discussions which are because the business is so personal, isn't it? 00:18:29.825 --> 00:18:33.395 It's so interwoven with our own interests, as we're talking about. 00:18:33.395 --> 00:18:43.375 So, oh, this is really floating my boat at the moment, so I want to do more of that in our day-to-day work, or, actually my family really has this need for my time at the moment, so I know that's not ideal for you. 00:18:43.777 --> 00:18:52.240 All of those things about working together, um, and I remember going oh, I need to talk about this, this tricky thing with Lewis. 00:18:52.240 --> 00:19:06.599 I'm just going to refresh my memory on, like the, the um, the way that you would formulate statements and uh vocalizations through the nvc approach, and just looking at those sentence starters again, oh, I feel like a whole weight has come off. 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:13.102 Now I can kind of not rehearse and practice, but I can work out what I formulate, what I want to say, in a way that doesn't feel threatening. 00:19:13.102 --> 00:19:18.442 Hopefully, that doesn't feel like it's you know you are doing this to me and, oh god, this is all wrong. 00:19:18.442 --> 00:19:21.128 It's just like these are my feelings and it's. 00:19:21.128 --> 00:19:22.030 You know you can't. 00:19:22.030 --> 00:19:24.497 Really it's not accusatory, is it to just go? 00:19:24.497 --> 00:19:26.041 These are my feelings um. 00:19:26.041 --> 00:19:28.108 Can you help me deal with it? 00:19:28.108 --> 00:19:30.175 And I think that's worked both ways. 00:19:30.175 --> 00:19:31.439 Would you say Lewis, that's.

00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:34.645 I think, yeah, definitely, yeah, absolutely. 00:19:34.645 --> 00:20:02.388 And I think there have been times I can remember times where, in order to use NVC properly, because of who we are, we had to not put on silly voices but like acknowledge that it felt weird or silly ago, like I'm going to do, and so you just put a little bit of a like, a bit of distance between yourself and some earnestness to go. 00:20:02.388 --> 00:20:03.792 You know this is it. 00:20:03.792 --> 00:20:33.866 But also I think there is something to be said for the fact that um, from very early on, as well as being, you know, practicing all this NVC and stuff, when I got very practiced at um, discussing books dispassionately, so that so you can discuss a book in a way that is not necessarily like here's wholly what I believe you're like oh why, why don't we engage with this book? 00:20:33.866 --> 00:20:39.887 And then, so, if you attack the if, if we go, well, that, but in the book is a little bit crap. 00:20:39.887 --> 00:20:46.409 There's one, there's one level of removal from like you are a crap person and so are your beliefs. 00:20:46.409 --> 00:20:55.397 Do you know, like having having academia gives you some sort of distance from those things, and like that's not always the case, do you know? 00:20:55.397 --> 00:20:56.680 I mean, like, I just think that is. 00:20:57.260 --> 00:21:11.701 I think that was very valuable at the start, to be able to work out where we were in terms of a pedagogy by looking at different pieces and going, well, do we want any of this in it, or do we both what you know, do we both want bits of this in it? 00:21:11.701 --> 00:21:24.730 And that's way more, and I think that's true of then you carry on and you just keep having those conversations and you keep having that kind of like you know, oh, I've learned loads recently about um play space design. 00:21:24.730 --> 00:21:27.449 Here's the play space design thing I've been reading. 00:21:27.449 --> 00:21:28.251 What do we think about? 00:21:28.251 --> 00:21:31.901 Incorporating some of that in is very different to. 00:21:31.901 --> 00:21:35.469 I dislike how the woods is and would like to change it. 00:21:35.996 --> 00:21:40.165 You, know, those things land differently. 00:21:40.165 --> 00:21:45.047 I don't know, do you and Vicky have a similar thing, or what muscles have you kind of worked on? 00:21:47.416 --> 00:21:48.863 Oh, it's hilarious. 00:21:48.863 --> 00:21:54.208 We I think we are somehow twin flames or something, you know sisters from other misters. 00:21:54.208 --> 00:22:03.643 I don't know how it happened, but we are so similar in personality, you know, we're so similar in our values and our shadow values. 00:22:03.643 --> 00:22:05.827 You know, one of our values is ease. 00:22:05.827 --> 00:22:15.641 So quite often if one person really really wants something, they'll get it because the other person can't be asked. 00:22:15.661 --> 00:22:19.926 So it's

a really oh, my goodness, it isn't. 00:22:19.926 --> 00:22:26.564 It isn't because sometimes when you try and do things the easy way, they don't work out because they need to be done properly. 00:22:26.564 --> 00:22:35.817 Um, but I did, we both did nbc as well, and gosh, if I could recommend one thing for all relationships in your life, it would absolutely be that. 00:22:35.817 --> 00:23:04.205 But I love your little tip there about putting on a funny voice, because if something's very serious in my life and I think well, I do think that I'm going to have to NVC this, if I say that to my husband I'm putting my NVC hat on, it's the signal that this is really important to me and he knows straight up okay, this is serious, there's something she really needs and this is quite an emotional conversation coming up, boom, it straightaway sets the right tone, I think, as well. 00:23:04.205 --> 00:23:11.586 So even that, I think maybe the silly little voice is the signal that, right, this is serious and you know, be kind. 00:23:13.917 --> 00:23:14.980 I think NVC is not a very. 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:15.983 British thing to do? 00:23:15.983 --> 00:23:16.987 It's not. 00:23:16.987 --> 00:23:37.065 We come from a culture of being very sarcastic and very underhand to each other, and you know the way you you know, and Australia, I think, has a similar thing of you know, you have some swear words that are affectionate words and things like this and you know, I think we have a similar. 00:23:37.065 --> 00:23:40.035 So I think when we do nbc it feels really against. 00:23:40.415 --> 00:23:49.832 It's like against my heritage to be authentic and to talk about feelings it is, you know, but I think we've been raised to avoid all those. 00:23:49.832 --> 00:23:54.340 You know, if it's feeling uncomfortable, let's make a silly joke and, you know, ease the atmosphere. 00:23:54.340 --> 00:24:04.523 So, yeah, I it is very good, I think, to set that tone and be all right, it's time to be, you know, be vulnerable, be authentic. 00:24:04.865 --> 00:24:12.307 Maybe don't be sarcastic right now until right at the end when you need to break the tension and go okay, we're back in the room now. 00:24:12.307 --> 00:24:18.005 Uh, you know, to get that thing going, let's hug it out. 00:24:18.005 --> 00:24:20.710 Well, we're not huggers. 00:24:26.641 --> 00:24:30.645 Mum and I have a yearly hug, I think that's about it, poor Vicky and we do occasionally go. 00:24:30.826 --> 00:24:31.547 That's my break in. 00:24:31.547 --> 00:24:34.791 The tension at the end is quite often we will hug and then go. 00:24:34.791 --> 00:24:36.834 That's it for this year, just so you know. 00:24:36.855 --> 00:24:47.510 Yeah, I hope it was worth it I'm dragging poor vicky into the hugging, the poor thing. 00:24:47.510 --> 00:24:51.519 I'm trying to respect her boundaries more, but she seems to be much more open to it. 00:24:51.618 --> 00:24:59.164 So it's a value of ease if you want to hug, it's just easy can you tell us um, that's just easier to take it. 00:24:59.776 --> 00:25:00.980 Can you tell us about shadow? 00:25:00.980 --> 00:25:02.624 You just mentioned shadow values. 00:25:02.624 --> 00:25:03.546 Can you tell us about that? 00:25:03.626 --> 00:25:14.919 I'm intrigued vicky, taught me about it, actually, and I will have to get to you the book that she got it from, because it was a book, I believe. 00:25:14.919 --> 00:25:24.061 Um, so generally we have our strengths and ours might be playing to our strengths, really, isn't it? 00:25:24.061 --> 00:25:39.917 So then, if you have a think about, I guess people might say one of my great attributes is that I'm very easygoing, I'm very easy to get along with, but if you flip that, you flip that the other way. 00:25:39.917 --> 00:25:44.032 Part of that is because I'm like I can't be bothered. 00:25:44.032 --> 00:25:46.198 You go, you do it, you do it your way. 00:25:46.198 --> 00:25:51.277 I actually I don't care, or I do care but I can't be asked. 00:25:51.277 --> 00:26:02.230 So that can be a shadow value, because sometimes maybe I do care but I can't be bothered, or maybe I can be bothered but I'm not caring enough when really I should care and I should put the effort in. 00:26:02.992 --> 00:26:11.534 And I find in small business, sometimes with the I'm not sure how you guys go with this, but my the hardest thing I find in small business is the constant barrage of decisions. 00:26:11.534 --> 00:26:23.708 All day, every day, I'm making decisions for myself, for my family, for our team members, for our families that come to Forest School, and so sometimes I just go whatever, and then three months later I go. 00:26:23.708 --> 00:26:31.175 I really wish I had said something then, because now I care, but at the time I just I couldn't be present. 00:26:31.175 --> 00:26:41.756 So if you think about your greatest strength generally, there's an underlying shadow value to that as well, and I think it's really interesting to explore that and the reasons behind it. 00:26:42.265 --> 00:26:46.737 Mine's probably I'm burning the candle too much and I probably need more rest and more self-care time. 00:26:46.737 --> 00:26:54.748 That way I've got more decision-making energy to, to participate in these things and and speak up when I probably care a little bit more. 00:26:54.748 --> 00:26:57.575 You know, and I'm not speaking up when I should. 00:26:57.575 --> 00:26:59.866 Yeah, do you think the decision? 00:26:59.866 --> 00:27:00.387 Should we? 00:27:00.387 --> 00:27:02.031 Should we see what your strengths are? 00:27:02.031 --> 00:27:06.930 I was gonna say should I ask you what your strengths are and see if I can find a shadow value? 00:27:07.130 --> 00:27:10.616 oh, god, that sounds terrifying. 00:27:10.616 --> 00:27:11.744 Um I don't. 00:27:11.786 --> 00:27:13.853 I'm not sure I could, by the way is it? 00:27:13.873 --> 00:27:15.167 does that come from Carl Jung? 00:27:15.167 --> 00:27:16.413 Is it a

Jungian thing? 00:27:16.413 --> 00:27:17.317 The shadow self? 00:27:17.317 --> 00:27:17.819 I don't know. 00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:18.845 I feel like I've heard of the shadow. 00:27:19.807 --> 00:27:25.858 I haven't actually read it yeah, okay, she read out a bunch of the strengths and said pick them. 00:27:25.858 --> 00:27:26.987 And then I picked one. 00:27:26.987 --> 00:27:31.393 She's like that's hilarious, a that's as well, which is we both know it. 00:27:31.393 --> 00:27:38.333 Which I think makes our relationship quite easy in a way is that we both do go with the flow. 00:27:38.333 --> 00:27:42.272 We both don't mind, you know, unless it's something we care really deeply about. 00:27:42.272 --> 00:27:44.911 Sure, if you want to pursue that, go nuts. 00:27:44.911 --> 00:27:50.710 Yeah, I'll have to get that for you, but I'll send it to you so we can both pop it in the show notes. 00:27:50.931 --> 00:27:55.094 Brilliant yeah to get that for you, but I'll send it to you so we can both pop it in the show notes. 00:27:55.094 --> 00:27:55.535 Brilliant, yeah, great. 00:27:55.535 --> 00:27:56.537 Yeah, I was gonna ask do you got? 00:27:56.537 --> 00:27:58.702 Do you, nikki, have a similar thing to me? 00:27:58.702 --> 00:28:04.074 You know, talking about that like decision fatigue and things where you go well down the line. 00:28:04.074 --> 00:28:06.058 I wish I had come into that. 00:28:06.058 --> 00:28:23.885 Sometimes there are things where, like because my you could almost see it as like the tool in my toolbox is learn more, right in quotes, that's the way I solve things is learn more, and so there's also I think it's not maybe a shadow thing. 00:28:23.885 --> 00:28:40.913 It's like the other side of that sword of like, well, I can always learn more, which is that, well, I haven't learned enough is is like the flip side of that, which is like any problems that come up or difficult things are like I don't understand why this is happening. 00:28:43.046 --> 00:28:54.988 Always come with this tinge of like you could learn more, yeah, okay, sometimes that's great, I get to learn more, and sometimes it's like, oh, I'll never. 00:28:54.988 --> 00:28:59.637 You know, I'll never be done, which is good and bad, isn't it? 00:29:01.645 --> 00:29:05.616 Yeah, and there's a level, and I would say Vicky's got a bit of that too. 00:29:05.616 --> 00:29:07.690 Is me talking about it when she's not here? 00:29:07.690 --> 00:29:09.455 Please feel free to chime in at another time. 00:29:09.455 --> 00:29:12.614 Vic and she openly talk about. 00:29:12.614 --> 00:29:18.817 This is the perfectionism as well, and so there's that learn more, but at what point? 00:29:18.817 --> 00:29:21.308 And it's almost like I think we talked about this over email. 00:29:21.308 --> 00:29:23.615 Lewis is similar to a healing journey. 00:29:23.615 --> 00:29:27.352 At what point are we healed? 00:29:27.352 --> 00:29:28.493 We're never healed. 00:29:28.493 --> 00:29:30.818 We've never learned everything, we've never fully healed. 00:29:30.818 --> 00:29:38.386 And you meet those people that are continuously on a healing journey, always, always healing, and they've never actually there is no end point. 00:29:38.386 --> 00:29:40.613 So what is it that we're avoiding? 00:29:40.613 --> 00:29:42.076 Is it the conflict? 00:29:42.076 --> 00:29:43.366 Is it the confrontation? 00:29:43.366 --> 00:29:44.028 Is it just? 00:29:44.028 --> 00:29:46.095 It's a really boring task and I don't want to do it. 00:29:46.095 --> 00:29:49.430 So there is always a flip side. 00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:54.720 I don't know whether they're good or bad, I just think they are. 00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.869 You know, I don't think we need to label them good or bad or even shadow value. 00:29:57.869 --> 00:30:01.515 I think it's just like you said, there's two sides to a sword. 00:30:02.884 --> 00:30:24.294 And that's probably to do with more, and then to go full circle right back to the start, where we were talking about like that way of intrinsically learning being joyful that knowing that, uh, you've there's more learning to be done cuts very differently when you think of learning as great, intrinsically motivated things. 00:30:24.294 --> 00:30:29.890 I'm interested in the idea of there's always more to learn lands differently. 00:30:29.890 --> 00:30:42.853 If your education experience has been, you know, didactic lecturing and stuff you weren't really interested in, then the idea of, like, you need to learn more is going to hit so differently. 00:30:42.853 --> 00:30:44.096 Do you know what I mean? 00:30:46.346 --> 00:30:58.050 Yeah, and to flip that again, if we're talking in a business sense, if there's a task I don't want to do but I could learn more, it's probably because, again, I'm avoiding the decision, because I don't want to make a wrong decision. 00:30:58.050 --> 00:31:05.204 It could be about pricing, it could be about, you know, there's something there that it's if I learn more, I will feel better about this decision. 00:31:05.204 --> 00:31:18.558 And so then, there's not that, whether it's a rejection from somebody, whether it's, you know, because there is on the flip side of perfectionism, there's often a rejection, not disorder. 00:31:18.558 --> 00:31:19.240 What am I trying to say? 00:31:19.240 --> 00:31:20.183 Sensitivity isn't it? 00:31:21.209 --> 00:31:22.136 No, I don't know what you mean. 00:31:22.136 --> 00:31:23.568 I don't know what you mean, Nikki. 00:31:23.568 --> 00:31:24.732 I've never heard that before. 00:31:24.732 --> 00:31:26.196 That's just rubbish. 00:31:29.647 --> 00:31:31.563 I didn't sign up for this therapy session today. 00:31:31.563 --> 00:31:32.875 As I'm speaking this, I didn't sign up for this therapy session today. 00:31:32.788 --> 00:31:57.334 As I'm speaking this, I didn't sign up for this Did you know my side hustle is no, but I think it's so interesting how so many of us, as business owners, are perfectionists

as well or are recovering perfectionists, and that rejection is really difficult when sales is essentially what we do and none of us would call it that because all of us hate sales. 00:31:57.334 --> 00:32:00.289 But it is bottoms on seats, puts bread on table. 00:32:00.289 --> 00:32:06.874 It's a simple equation and that's not why any of us are in it either. 00:32:06.874 --> 00:32:08.491 That's the other hilarious thing. 00:32:08.491 --> 00:32:12.835 But ultimately we have to get over that rejection to do what we love. 00:32:14.065 --> 00:32:20.920 Do you want to know a great way of getting over the rejection I saw it the other day of someone said oh well, you, you say you're a perfectionist name. 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:22.744 Three things you've done perfectly. 00:32:26.909 --> 00:32:29.270 Oh my God, I'm not. 00:32:29.550 --> 00:32:30.412 I'm not at all. 00:32:35.895 --> 00:32:38.778 But I think business has been the best thing for mine. 00:32:38.778 --> 00:32:40.559 I would say I'm not a perfectionist anymore. 00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.701 I would say I'm recovering because I don't have time. 00:32:43.701 --> 00:32:54.486 It's, you know, done is better than perfect, because I cannot physically do all of the things I need to do in a work and homeschool my children and be a you know, a loving wife and keep up my friendships and and and and. 00:32:54.486 --> 00:32:59.176 I just have to get things done sometimes and not as perfectly as as I want them to be. 00:32:59.176 --> 00:33:02.652 So yeah, lifelong learning. 00:33:03.433 --> 00:33:04.395 Lifelong learning. 00:33:04.997 --> 00:33:10.752 Yay, business is way more fun than we've made it out to be. 00:33:10.752 --> 00:33:11.295 We promise. 00:33:13.445 --> 00:33:14.569 Well speaking of Nikki. 00:33:14.569 --> 00:33:22.313 I'm very appreciative of your time, but people that have listened to this and they want to find out more about wildlings and what you guys are up to. 00:33:22.313 --> 00:33:23.415 Where can people head to? 00:33:25.708 --> 00:33:26.664 Head to our website. 00:33:26.664 --> 00:33:29.734 It's wildlingsforestschoolcom or our socials. 00:33:29.734 --> 00:33:35.433 We're Wildlings Forest School AU because, believe it or not, there's a Wildlings Forest School in the UK as well. 00:33:35.433 --> 00:33:42.775 We found that out when we kept getting emails at some point from the UK people saying can we join your program? 00:33:42.775 --> 00:33:45.775 I said, oh, are you on holiday? 00:33:45.775 --> 00:33:47.170 Are you vacationing? 00:33:47.170 --> 00:33:47.551 Yeah? 00:33:47.551 --> 00:33:52.412 So yes, don't forget the AU on our socials, but we'd love to see you. 00:33:52.412 --> 00:33:56.630 And likewise, where can we find out more about you guys and hear your story? 00:33:57.746 --> 00:34:04.015 Well, we're on theforestschoolpodcastcom or you can find out about what we're up to out in the woods. 00:34:04.015 --> 00:34:10.054 If you search anywhere children of the forest and you have to put UK, because there's a children of the forest in Indonesia. 00:34:12.184 --> 00:34:12.965 Oh, no way. 00:34:12.965 --> 00:34:18.914 So there we go, the synchronicities Exactly. 00:34:20.456 --> 00:34:22.179 Amazing the global world. 00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:23.240 Isn't it a phenomenon? 00:34:23.684 --> 00:34:25.092 Thank you so much for chatting with us. 00:34:25.092 --> 00:34:26.610 It's been very, very fun. 00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:35.757 It has, and I'm sure we will have to find some time in the future to chat with Vicky as well, when you guys have got a bit more time. 00:34:36.264 --> 00:34:38.172 Yes, I can't wait to see what the next topic is. 00:34:38.172 --> 00:34:43.617 This has been really fun to talk outside and beyond and a little bit deeper into what we do. 00:34:43.617 --> 00:34:44.867 So thanks so much for having me. 00:34:44.867 --> 00:34:45.811 I really appreciate it. 00:34:46.713 --> 00:34:47.996 Thanks, nikki, great to meet you. 00:34:58.224 --> 00:35:00.893 What fun and what a great reminder to myself to continue to experiment and have fun in all areas of my life. 00:35:00.893 --> 00:35:05.168 You might've noticed that we've been pretty quiet around these parts lately. 00:35:05.168 --> 00:35:20.092 We've had a bunch of family and business things going on in the background amongst all of our travel, and keeping our mojo and trying to commit the time that's required to put this podcast together has felt really hard for the first time since we started this podcast. 00:35:20.092 --> 00:35:41.708 So a big thanks to Lewis and Gemma for re-energizing me, and particularly in this space, because it's given me the kickstart to start recording again, and it was just such an absolute pleasure to connect with such like-minded business owners and chat to another business partnership in a similar field, doing such a similar journey together. 00:35:41.708 --> 00:35:43.273 How validating. 00:35:43.273 --> 00:35:49.213 Hope you enjoyed this new and experimental episode and until next week, stay wild.