ABOUT THIS EPISODE

David Heinemeier Hansson is the founder of Ruby on Rails and co-founder and CTO of Basecamp. He is an outspoken defender of living a fulfilling life, and a true believer that it does not have to be crazy at work. When not writing code, David enjoys endurance car racing and time with his wife and two kids.

Over the years, David has become a very influential person in technology and business, and has developed a number of philosophies which are helping him live a happy and fulfilling life, a life in which there is time for business and pleasure.

As you will hear for yourself, happiness is a simple secret. You too could have a great life and ensure that you kids have one too. David does not try to hide what it takes to be truly happy. At the end, it is on you to give it a try. Are you ready?

Key discussion points:

What drives DHH to come to work every day (01:00) Can you be at a place where you are only doing things that you like? (06:00) Happiness, the stoic philosophy and the concept of existentialism (08:30) How to be satisfied with life and work (13:00) The power of intrinsic motivation and how David nearly failed high-school (17:00) Benefits of growing up in a socially democratic state, Denmark (28:00)

ReWork - New York Times Bestseller (32:00) It Does Not Have to Be Crazy At Work (39:00) When enough is enough (44:50)

How to make a fortune in car racing (50:00) Entrepreneurship and the value of balancing risk (58:00) The goal of living and free-range children (1:03:00) Modern parent obsession with obedience (1:09:00) Parenting and equal and how to teach your kids about money (01:15:27)

Books by David and 37Signals / Basecamp

Rework - New York Times Bestseller Remote: Office not required It does not have to be crazy at work

Books that David mentioned during the show

Finding Flow: The Psychology Of Engagement With Everyday Life Punished by Rewards

Popular blog posts by DHH

The day I became a millionaire RECONSIDER

To see an amazing car collection, as well as beautiful hills of Malibu

DHH on Instagram

Lastly, other podcasts with DHH that were thoroughly enjoyable to hear:

The Tim Ferris Show (warning: very-very-very long) The Unmistakable Creative (my personal favorite)

English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:00hello read that listeners to this is the host kills a mostly today my guest on the show is David Hanna Mar Hanson David is an author of the bestselling book called we work he's also a race car driver and for the last fifteen years David is cofounder Jason
00:00:15have been running a company called base camp David is a really outspoken person and he focuses a lot on living a life happier life of full stealing life a successful life but unlike many people he lives a successful life is defined by himself and nobody else this and
00:00:32how his entrepreneurial journey it led him to define a philosopher for his life and how he's applying that while raising his two young children is what we're going to talk about on the podcast today without further ado David welcome to the show you know this Kim's been around
00:00:55for almost fifteen years and you've been doing rails and base camp together for the this long what drives you you know what why do you still show up for work the question I think it's especially a good question once you reach the point in you're correct professional career
00:01:14or at least I've reached the point in my professional career where I don't have to go to work right on we've been so fortunate with the success of base camp that I could stop doing that and either star something else another company or just to open source or
00:01:32spent my time on on any other pursuits so it is a question I ask myself pretty frequently as a way of gauging whether we're heading in the right direction base camp because given the fact that neither Jason nor I needed to do base camp we should debate can
00:01:49because we want to and that revolves a lot around actually insuring that things stay any within the realm of allowing us to do our favorite things most of the time me that means programming a lot I love to program it's one of my favorite things as far as
00:02:11hobbies pursuits passions go already if not my favorite thing in the world it's it's close to it the word shares that spot with with a few other things I want to be able to keep doing that right so we've decided that base camp should be a place that
00:02:28allows me to keep programming and Jason to keep designing and both of us to keep writing and teaching and sharing and not for example spend all our time growing the company so to speak we earlier this year was late last year I forget announced that we're going to
00:02:46hiring freeze base camp is about fifty three people right now and that's a good size when you don't need a whole layer of middle management and and managers for those middle managers and we wanted to avoid that transition right not that we thought we were particularly special in
00:03:05fact because we thought that we were not that if we continued on the growth path and we were on and hiring slowly but steadily more people we would read it reach a breaking point where all the sudden we would need to spend most of our times doing are
00:03:20not favorite things all the time right just managing and running the company which is for morning in his own sense but it's not the same as spending your time reading with your own two hands some dad so that's pretty much the ethos to to stick with the things
00:03:38that we like right because if I were to stop to base camp for example I would still want a program which the water right so can we just find a way to accommodate those desires passions pursuits within the base camp that we already built up that is the
00:03:54successful company where I get to work with some of the best people I've ever worked with in my life to pursue a mission but I find complete be worth while instilling gauging application that I use for many hours every day that's something pretty good deal to me that
00:04:13sounds like what a lot of people striving for day in and day out and perhaps never get to with you know VC money or not right and that doesn't mean it took fifty people to get this came to the point where you're no longer have to do the
00:04:29work you don't like doing absolutely not I mean in in many ways %HESITATION at fifty people I'm doing a lot more work that I'm not that I don't like doing but that is my favorite thing to do right there's more work manager company when you're out fifty people
00:04:47than there is managing a company twenty people now there are some things that when it was just me and Jason and I had a couple of other people in the beginning I had to do more stuff right like these days for example I don't do any system administration
00:05:02when we first got started I mean I was doing the technical person so I had to set up all the servers and manage them and and and do all that stuff and Jason for the first three years of base camp answered every single customer support email neither of
00:05:16us spend the majority of our time doing either of those things anymore which in some ways this is sort of Chris toward spending more of our times and the things that we're unique to go that they stuck me with programming and Jason with the sign but it's been
00:05:34replaced with other things that we don't need to worry about right but it's not that you have to do your favorite thing all the time I don't think that that sat responsible for a possible thing to do that when it comes to work or comfortable life you can't
00:05:48just do your favorite things all the time I think that's a hedonistic approach that's not very Bible and you can be such an **** if you try to pursue that as a full time strategy but I fully believe that you can get to do different things most of
00:06:03the time if you are so fortunate to be successful in what you do and a lot of people that I know or talk to who on the surface should have all the options open to them to do their favorite things was the time but somehow they end up
00:06:20not doing that right Dan of actually being miserable even though they on paper have all this power to design a life do you recall in a way that they would truly enjoy and I found that that's just about right like if you are so fortunate to to get
00:06:37to a place where you can make these authentic choices about how your life should me I find it to be an obligation that you do so it's kind of just is balancing act of eating your vegetables but also are enjoying life actually I wonder do you know why
00:06:57that's the case why people can't I'm structure their lives in I mean maybe less damaging wait to themselves because I've met quite a few people who are now millionaires and they too just not back to work and really maybe maybe they can think of something else to do
00:07:16with their life like have you noticed a pattern well I'm try to investigate that question for quite a long time which has led me down the path of philosophy which really is the the suit of how to live the good life and in that pursuit I found a
00:07:34number of philosophical disciplines that really resonated with me one of them is stoicism which is this ancient Greek and Roman %HESITATION philosophy school that focuses a lot on our expectations and how the things that we think that are bad or good that happened to assume or often battered
00:07:58good because we had expectations of how they should be and we have the power is conscious human beings to set different expectations doesn't mean that it's easy in fact it's very hard and I think that there's a lot of expectations about how life should be your house think
00:08:15should turn out that people aren't consciously choosing or simply inheriting their adopting I'm consciously but the day end up running our lives in ways that are actually helpful to them so the stoic philosophy teaches people to examine that and re examine that and changing their expectations and changing
00:08:42how they process events and I find that too resonate very well with some of my home grown personal philosophy that I had to develop just through my own experience and this was basing our better more refined more ticklish version of that that had additional aspect hadn't even considered
00:09:05but because it reminded me of the thought patterns I had already had about how to live my life it down it was just such an Eureka moment where I went like oh yeah are people three thousand years ago without all this through came up with some pretty compelling
00:09:22answers then they bombed and all up into an approachable philosophy of how to live the good life so I think that's a great place to mine for those insights the other philosophy that I've taken up more recently concept of existentialism and %HESITATION it is a little bit unless
00:09:47practical and perhaps more depressing knew of the human condition %HESITATION this notion that we are free to make our own choices and that freedom is is often if not outright spirit data because we are free to make all sorts of choices that we perhaps think that we can't
00:10:11write and you hear them saying all the time I didn't have a choice you always have a choice easy choice or whatever you do have a choice and there's a lot of matters of how you sign your life that there are are really dependent on making those conscious
00:10:29choices so what I find is a lot of people wind up on happy when they should be happy is that they really haven't sat down and faced those questions face their own mortality face their own knew of the world %HESITATION and carefully examined whether what they're doing habits
00:10:50that they formed the choices that they're making are are getting closer to what they truly want which of course starts with figuring out what is it that you truly want and how is it that you truly want to live but taking the time to answer those questions I
00:11:07think it's scary for a lot of people and I was treating just a couple days ago about the usefulness of the mid life crisis the idea that the mid life crisis offers a lot of people the first encounter with their own mortality with the notion that death is
00:11:28going to come one day for all of us and when you look back at the life that you've let are you happy with the decisions that you've made and I think the midlife crisis for a lot of people represents a resounding no you're not happy with the choices
00:11:43that they made on the field either that they have to make them warranty just kind of did in an unconscious in a frantic way where they went with the flow and this was what they were supposed to blah blah blah and and now they're facing facing the reality
00:11:59that those choices I don't get to make them forever right can only spend half of what there is to life and this is really it so the usefulness of that exercise is that even though the questions and scary and there might be despairing me scary %HESITATION it is
00:12:20a choice to reset it is an option to recess now me stereotype in that case is that this is some middle aged white dude right who goes out and buys a red sports car and divorces their spouse and find some one half their age yeah okay that that
00:12:41happens and that kind of looks pathetic to a lot of people not trusting fired me so it doesn't mean that the underlying realization that what they had was not what they wanted isn't with jet it is probably means that the first place that they sought refuge in these
00:13:01material things are clinging on to you Sir whatever that's not what's going to save them right and and once the midlife crisis place through and they realize that these materials or useful cleanings we're not going to make them content and satisfied %HESITATION and hopefully the real work of
00:13:22figuring out what it is then that can make you satisfied and content with your life begins I'm really happy to hear you say this because I think so many people take way too long to come to this conclusion center revalued their life and ask the hard questions and
00:13:39I do hope that our listeners who will at whatever age there at what would ask themselves these questions in this specifically for me personally I've let me start thinking about this concept of basically living your life in reverse because I think for our parents life is very different
00:13:57where you went to work in your work work work work work you know when they retired and then you at you try to enjoy life afterwards but in today's day and age with the way we work there's really no reason to have maintained the same work environment right
00:14:13there's no reason you even need to work every year consecutively if you can afford to work differently absolutely yeah and I think it's it's a team in sort of and that in the sense that even if you do work full time like for example I work full time
00:14:33because most of the artwork about forty hours a week during the summer we work thirty two hours a week we take Fridays off but I do that knowing that that's how I want to spend thirty to forty hours of my week and I made that choice but then
00:14:48I'm also made the choice that beyond that I don't want to just work right thanks I want to do something else and that choice is not just something the days and I take a successful founders who don't have to work anymore it's also the choice that we offer
00:15:00and encourage if not outright in force for the employees that we have that they need to make sure they're better workers are better people then will live better lives if they pursue other things than just work work and then it is possible to have a fulfilling career where
00:15:23you work in your full time and then also have very fulfilling pursuits outside of that career and to kind of have both of those things I think there's false dichotomies that have been repeated over and over again and the latest is for some of the work life balance
00:15:38can't happen and it's impossible to think of these terms words even harmful to think of it in these terms as in some sort of struck when I see like I can't recognize that I tried Zaki for that a truck stop you for a balance but I want part
00:15:53of the scales filled up with work because it's intellectually stimulating I get to work with wonderful peers I get to %HESITATION realize myself through creation I would not want to give up that I think that that's the pendulum swing that sometimes at least in my mind goes too
00:16:12far as a general prescription for example that living your life traveling all the time is this idyllic notion that should appeal to everyone and if everyone had the choice to just travel the world continues to that's how they would choose to live Waco absolutely not I go on
00:16:29vacation for two weeks I'm ready to do something else like I don't want to live in a suitcase or in a series of hotels and I've done exactly the first two things for a large amount of the past ten years racing around the globe %HESITATION long enough to
00:16:45realize that that's certainly not what I would want to do full time with my life but it's a wonderful sort of part Travis one component of our yeah you you wrote once in your post Cold reconsider that people should just accept the definition of success because that in
00:17:06the form that everybody else is cheering for success but they have to figure it out on their own some curious over the the last fifteen years that you've been doing base camp how did you figure out your own metric for success and how it's changed as you grow
00:17:21older as you became a dad as you became a millionaire and more successful yeah that's a good question I think one of the early conclusions I came to in life was the importance of intrinsic motivation that I was not a particularly great employee and I was not particularly
00:17:42great of a general student either because I wasn't motivated by extrinsic rewards very well I was motivated by grades so that meant I had a few subjects in college and high school that I was really into and gave it my all and then there were other topics some
00:18:06at one time or another and then on something else at a different time where I decided you know what I don't want to spend this year of my life doing math homework I decided that my third year of high school right like you know it's not that I
00:18:21don't really like math I actually like math and in some ways but right now there are things I would rather do than math homework so what I'm going to consciously decide is that I'm going to get in there I am going to fail this class either elected to
00:18:36take it myself I regret that decision and I'm just going to copy all my math homework find someone in my class who can along with Basie to copy all their homework and I'm going to turn it in with alterations that make their homework worse just enough to essentially
00:18:52not flunk out of high school but I know better than to get a note from the subject about right and I didn't really give a **** right thank you wished he wasn't keeping me from doing the things that I wanted to do to to make that choice and
00:19:07then I got to spend all that time nothing like playing with the internet to my own projects online and playing video games and and also some of the things that I would rather do and I mean there's obviously tons of survivorship bias built into the next statement comes
00:19:25here but that worked out pretty well for me but see that's a general solution to everyone that I gave you just flunking math %HESITATION classes then everything's going turns out to you that those things are not that well correlated what is well corn in my mind is discovering
00:19:42the power of intrinsic motivation the things that you're motivated to do the sake of doing that right like I was extremely motivated to learn a lot about computers to learn a lot about the internet to learn about community building to learn about leadership %HESITATION all these disciplines that
00:20:00I'm now spending the majority of my time working on and that the investment into those pursuits we were well Morris giving up other things for our show that realization the power of intrinsic motivation really drove me to look deeper into the whole topic of motivation and mastery and
00:20:26those things of course pretty tightly correlated right because you're heavily motivated to spend lots of hours very dedicated training you will eventually end up a master cases and I'd say certainly so for for most intellectual pursuits that or not research to some some genius bracketing which I generally
00:20:47don't believe that most things are %HESITATION and dad man says I was sort of on them chase I was ready to adopt ideas such as finding flow one of the very different financial or one of the most influential books I've ever read finding small is all about breaking
00:21:09down these moments of happiness when you're completely engrossed in that activity that's just beyond your reach of your current abilities and you get lost in time and space trying to to change that and I found that there are I could name that was a good name that slow
00:21:27whistle thing and I was interested in getting more meant I could set myself up and to sign my work and life five more of those opportunities it sounds like you've gone through quite a bit of reflection time throughout throughout your career but this is amazing to hear this
00:21:51because I can always almost feel the rage of a plus plus students we're working eighty hour days and probably achieved less success both financially and emotionally then you have every act I married one to some degree my wife was a straight a student who you've got a four
00:22:16point zero grade point average and soon everything with extreme bigger in chase of to some extent extrinsic rewards and I think that %HESITATION her experiences getting a bit disillusioned with that approach and seeing others in her line of work and and I've seen the same or you see
00:22:42someone who will come out with all these credentials that society tells loser streaming portent to chase and then they come out without a compass of where they want to take that can be absolutely tragic right you can end up with people who supposedly have it all but are
00:22:59still completely miserable in west what it is that they do and you can have other people were not at all successful one in the material grade point average college whatever credential race that %HESITATION you're looking at and they can be the happiest people that you meet and I
00:23:16know who I'd rather be right I'd certainly rather live my life extremely contending for filled with the work and life that I was living even if that Mandela much different and if the wealth scale then and end up living a life that didn't feel like it was mine
00:23:34or one that I had chosen but one that I'd simply followed even if that meant I could afford nice things of course the ultimate overlap is when those two things meet right but for a lot of people don't necessarily if you do have to choose I know which
00:23:52choice I'd rather make yeah given this philosophy on life and you've been a well recognized sort of public figure and been very outspoken and you spend a lot of time on Twitter or not it's a lot of time but you do express your opinions a lot and they
00:24:11sure virtue of being in a startup founder that you definitely overlap with Silicon Valley circles who pay two very different narrative working all the time you know basically working a lot now so that later you can enjoy your life if you ever get there but I wonder you
00:24:31know what does it feel like to be you and engage in these discussions and still be trying to kind of like trying to breakthrough this break wall that just yells at you the opposite it's very fulfilling work acting had say I've always had a streak of enjoying pushing
00:24:54and swimming against the stream so just static too many on its own is enjoyable for me especially when it is of course powered by a sense that I have some insights that other people could benefit from at least considering and it's not so much that I see wish
00:25:16or even think it is possible to convince most people that I debate on the topic of let's say over work but it is that I hope to sway some of the onlookers view at the to at least consider the fact that he wait a minute there are people
00:25:34who think differently are people who've been successful thinking differently I don't have to just assume that the only path to success making a tech startup for example is working a hundred twenty hours a week here's a narrative here's a story from someone who didn't do that and where
00:25:53things turned out pretty well let me at least listen to that argument and then if I still choose to work hundred twenty hours a week and I will miss have made a somewhat informed choice and then perhaps once I start regretting that choice somewhere down the line I
00:26:12know which trail to pick up and explore once I'm ready for something else soon that kind of satisfaction that comes from sharing an alternative and seeing that adopted by people who I did try and feed the other version first and became dissolution or avoided that path and I
00:26:39the cases ended up happier on this on the site is very fulfilling so I mean part of this is also just I'm working out my own thought process around the stage right by sharing and thinking things through in pop like I get to refine and hone my own
00:26:59arguments on my own internal debate about how things should be and how I should enter my own life I mean that's always I think that's open for tinkering and I tried to do so continues me by by close examining my own decisions and use but also by learning
00:27:17from others and mostly the learning from others part comes from discovering the sob older sources of wisdom in terms of star system existentialism or other writers over the millennia who had nice things to say on these topics do you think this focus on some kind of living your
00:27:44own life and but living life for yourself the way you're doing it now came in part because you grow up in Copenhagen and not in US I think it was easier to be receptive to these ideas in Copenhagen no doubt the Nordic model of the social democratic state
00:28:08I think teach issue even if you aren't ready to receive those teachings in the moment which I certainly was not ready to receive all those teachings as as I was growing up in Copenhagen %HESITATION they're there and they're there to draw on when you get exposed to what
00:28:24the alternative looks like right I was somewhat critical updated system and also some ways while I was living in Denmark and aspirational through towards the American entrepreneurial more for lack of a better word for a long time and then I moved to the US and I've lived here
00:28:45for quite a long time then it became quite disillusioned with a lot of the established wisdom of why it is that America is so great and I started to realize all the ways were the Nordics social democratic model really had gotten it right and word really had just
00:29:07made life better for vast numbers of people in society when you've been seeing how hard life is for a lot of Americans even Americans it we're doing relatively well how on secure how filled with anxiety over some fundamental basics that I never even thought to be worried about
00:29:32in Denmark right things like health education and housing %HESITATION not that these things are not concerns everywhere they are but there are different categories of concern the criticality of those concerns in the US system instead a completely different level than what it is for most states in the
00:29:51data system on not just in marketing whenever I bring up Denmark and I bring up demo because I was born and raised in Denmark and I spent twenty five years there people say oh well that's easy because like six million people right like that's the size of one
00:30:05of American city that is %HESITATION I mean it's not just Denmark right like most of the emu have systems that are much closer to the new system on all the important basics of let's say health education housing that are far removed from the American approach to those things
00:30:27and I mean there's many people and now you're right one three million so again this isn't to say that this is just some magic Wonderland and like that everything was figured out and this figure not neither in Denmark on Europe but just that on some of these societal
00:30:44questions the answers the European answers and some people are just better and having lived in Denmark the US and Spain are for long periods of time has given me an end in sight to evaluate that and a different level than if you spend your entire life in the
00:31:04US if you spend your entire life in Denmark Spencer tar like Spain on you're saying if you only know one country no no country and I think there's a fair amount of truth to that I know that the that's wonderful because another guest on this broadcast travels a
00:31:25lot with his daughter and he's been saying that that's been one of the best ways to learn about the world for them is to go travel basically take as much vacation time and know you are fortunate to grow up in different countries and so alive but a lot
00:31:39of people who were born US miss that opportunity and it's it's extremely important just to see what else is out there what's available for yourself and no doubt you one thing I wanna cover real quick before we go any further is your first book will not specifically I
00:32:02guess your first book but that first book you guys did a space camp which is re work because you guys were super popular for that one at that minute rounds all over the planet I guess and I remember reading that book before I did my first start up
00:32:17and just thinking like right on you know these guys get can you just really briefly cover that book and cannot tell us how you came to the idea of writing that particular book sure so funding is required it's actually our second major broke before we work we self
00:32:37published a book called getting real in two thousand six which included some of the same topics that we cover and we work but was even more specific to our circumstances he was anything about how to build a web right only got really specifically to the degree that we
00:32:54work with is a bit of a distraction from that book that a bunch of people read getting real word necessary building software what felt like a lot of the lessons that we shared in that book apply to their work as well and that was it was funny that
00:33:09it's a bit of the same surprise we got with bass and the product when we first launch based on the product we were just trying to solve our own problems which was to have better communication better project management around client services work which was what our company was
00:33:22doing at the time right start the sign for higher and then we realized %HESITATION there's all these other people were buying based him to use it for all sorts of other things that are not client services related all in and that's what happened with getting real %HESITATION than
00:33:36we had all these lessons that we have accumulated building base camp and politician I working in the industry for longer than that then we want to share and then we thought we had a %HESITATION a different perspective on so re work was then sort of the first grand
00:33:56accumulation of those %HESITATION lessons that apply to more people I'm more the time and and we took basically ten years of writing from both getting real book and also years and years of blog posts and our keynote speakers and and so forth and compiled them into one book
00:34:18with a bunch I think seventy different short essays on individual topics such as higher when it hurts interruption is the enemy of productivity meetings are toxic take a side on to do your competition these are some of the S. saying topics that we had that book so is
00:34:36racing like water or what is the our value system one of the principles what the practices that we use to run base camp in the way that we have and in those maybe there's some ideas for how you can change how you do things and see things differently
00:34:56and at least even if you're not going to do things like we're going to do even if you're not gonna give up press releases because we say press releases the spam you get a different perspective on it and you will be more thoughtful when you Lori techniques %HESITATION
00:35:13that seem like oh that's just the way everyone else thinks right will be provided on a bunch of those topics a different way of doing things and saying you can be successful even if you don't do that right on even if you eat your own working forty hours
00:35:27a week for example %HESITATION doesn't prevent us from building a wonderful company that we're product and still herein is massively profitable and and has had the staying power and the impact of the industry on modest trying to share some of those principal and principles and values and and
00:35:45techniques with you that you can point your honor do you guys know it was going to become a number one bestseller or was that a happy accident we knew that a bunch in the essays had really good poll because re work was more of a remix than any
00:36:06original production so speak he was facing me like the greatest hits of the last ten years I often likened it to stand up comedians who will before they put together their HBO or I suppose these days Netflix special he worked all of these jokes in many cases for
00:36:25years in clubs and they know which one of them work in which one of them out so we knew we had a lot of winners in the material but is still huge need to from that to selling one half a million books around the world me yeah you
00:36:40you'd be you have to have bigger is sort of self confidence and then even we do when we have some pretty healthy self confidence to think that %HESITATION yeah the first major both did we released with the publisher of course that's going to be at New York times
00:36:55bestseller and of course in some one half million copies around the world you know we didn't really know that but it also I mean in some ways in matter right like we weren't doing it for that everywhere but still been a success to me gets old attempt the
00:37:12number of copies in some ways I was writing the book for me ours writing and to remind myself to remind our own company of these values principles and ideas we refer back to re work all the time in ways where we have straight were like eight we know
00:37:32this right and we we we know that %HESITATION we should ignore the details are we on which is another chapter we work yet we didn't in this case right I find a lot of the most important lessons that you learned and %HESITATION and you think a crucial you
00:37:51can just more than once cannot to burn them to three or four times before they truly sink in so I was writing rework for myself and in many ways and it's just added bonus that %HESITATION through another half a million people around the world who also thought that
00:38:07the ideas for progress which comes back to the discussion we had about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation right I did not time myself worth up to whether we work was going to be a hit poker not a hint book are signing up to do I think it's a good
00:38:22book I thought you hell yeah I think this is a good book I would write essays but I wanted to read to be honest I hope everyone the same to this podcast picks up a copy and reads it because I remember it was one of the only few
00:38:40books that I was able to read from cover to cover in one setting and I generally don't like reading books up but it was I I remember to this day and I think the book came out what eight years ago you would say yes right to content yeah
00:38:55it was it was so easy and exciting to read any just like said everything that I was thinking at that point so to anyone who hasn't read it yet they should definitely grab a copy and check it out and I am a link to the book in the
00:39:09show notes but actually you guys have another book coming this fall yeah it's cold it doesn't have to be crazy at work and some of the topics are continuation from we work it's probably the most direct sequel to rework that we put out we between the book we
00:39:29have coming out in a month and rework we published another book called remote office not required which made the case for war working remotely and gave people techniques and arguments for making that transition work %HESITATION but that was more sort of targeted specifically at the notion of remote
00:39:48work and I don't mean able tossed about the good things it doesn't have to be crazy at work touches on a much broader scope of how as we just talked about on this broadcast that a lot of people get wrapped up in his performance notions of what part
00:40:07should look like would be see should be and the dancing is good and we try to take a hard swing at that and the advocate for the com company essentially that work doesn't have to be crazy it can be calm and it's better when it's gone it's better
00:40:27when it's not eighty hour weeks of hundred twenty are weeks it's better when it's not a tax schedules when it's all super busy when it's just meeting after meeting when it's an overflowing inbox when it's unrealistic deadlines when it's an inability to sting and then even when you
00:40:43can't sleep you get sleep not enough when it's weekends they get swallowed up by work emails when it's no time to think are wind chat is just overwhelming you're drowning your out and when it's all nighters and then you can turn work into a much calmer place by
00:40:59simply saying eight hours a day is enough forty hours a week is claimed T. R. I need time for myself when you need to come to be paced days are you need to use the weekends to re charge you need to look at other techniques and just meetings
00:41:17for disseminating information or making decisions everything doesn't have to be a rush you can work on a realistic schedule %HESITATION and when you discuss things you can be without making these knee jerk reactions all the time they should just slowing things down and realizing you won't go slower
00:41:36right %HESITATION it's funny in in racing we have the same kind of slow as fast dead calm full imprints on the steering wheel actually drives a race car faster and I think the same thing is true in business and at work that if you're frantic and rushing around
00:41:58and you have a hundred things in your hair is constantly on fire you not effective be doing a lot of stuff but it's not moving the right things forward so we're making a in an argument for moving the right things for it and how do we configure work
00:42:15to be a place that that doesn't feel like it's crazy on the top right and part of that is reconfiguring the the practices so Clark like how we have meetings or how we use Chad or are we use email but some of it is also revisiting the goals
00:42:33and aspirations of work that you don't have to be dominating your industry not to be crushing the competition not to have this war mentality or zero sum approach to everything and and if you do of well it's not really surprise you get locked into this survivalist babble on
00:42:53but if you skip down and if you look at things that has acted to write that there can be and are many competitors to base camp is not wonderful it means that people have choice base camp is not the right fit for everyone there's plenty of people who
00:43:09look at base camp and decide that they want something else and they're too many people look at other products that we are ten gently compete against and say like no I'd rather have a base camp %HESITATION the world would be poor we didn't have competitors are or we
00:43:26weren't a competitor %HESITATION it's not that we have to inoculate each other so this is just some of the topics that we kind of number that broke and again it's just like we work in short you'll be able to read it in a single setting it's about the
00:43:40same length as we work which means that you can read the whole book and two and two three hours or something like that I'd be surprised if you can a swallow on the topics and challenges that we posted on those two and three hours but at least the
00:43:54material itself is well to be short and all the essays are just %HESITATION usually a couple of pages on draws heavily on our experiences running base camp for well close to twenty years for projects in this case the the company traces its roots back to nineteen ninety nine
00:44:13I joined and started working with a scam to thousand or started work with Jason into one but %HESITATION these or not theoretical concerns arm these are very practical concerns were we have actually hit the problems tried to devise solutions sometimes the solution didn't work and we try to
00:44:31mother wants and these are the conclusions sounds like another New York times bestseller we'll see where we're gonna try doesn't sound like it's going to be very hard to get there to be honest like it because it's yet another book or it's just like well done like everybody
00:44:52should be doing this or not doing the things that suggest yet not doing right I heard somebody asked that one of the show's callers but actually curious when you say you know what you're all about Mike not crushing the competition and that your product is good for somebody
00:45:10you build a really good really valuable product and by the way I've met some of the people who've been using base camp says basically the beginning of base camp and they still using it and they're still paying your money at so it's pretty amazing or that somebody can
00:45:22deliver the product for ten plus years but that said where you guys gun to say you just I didn't want to continue but I think you stop sign up for higher rates yes which was a purpose like like product right that you guys been running for a long
00:45:42time it was actually yeah see around it was more of like a sales force the kind of product we we did have another product that was kind of like slack called the campfire but we rolled up product into base camp several years ago the one we just stop
00:45:59new feature development on this call dies called high rise which was sort of our second biggest product and we're trying to bunch of different experience without we tried to have another team running for awhile and we ended up not being happy with that after we've given that a
00:46:15a long time then consider whether we wanted to run it again and and ultimately decided as we talk about in the beginning that if I was if we were to the sign base camp %HESITATION what would we want to work on and high rise no longer fell within
00:46:31the sphere things were super excited to work on and know even know he was in was an amazing business more successful than the past bass back toward your goals ask companies that's ever been formed out there %HESITATION you would that was still not enough for us to do
00:46:47it right his meat already reached a point where we don't have to do anything so let's just work on on our favorite things most of the time and %HESITATION base camp remains a favorite things for us because the entire company uses it constantly and the recently we had
00:47:04told us of the product is high rise here in product just it was not compelling force anymore to continue to pursue that so kind of decided let's just make a choice and and %HESITATION he continued support for all existing customers who had it that that's one of the
00:47:21other core beliefs at base camp that we chars are over legacy we still operate a free piece of software called the dollars that was launched in two thousand and five as a spin off from base camp at the time and I think we shut it down for new
00:47:37sign ups in like two thousand and eight or something it was a lot like a thousand people every day using that system and that makes me proud and happy that we are the kind of company will value a legacy system free product we launched our we should we
00:47:52shut down to sign up for more than a decade ago is still being operated right and and we're not leaving those uses in the March and we're making the same promise to Irish uses we may see a call at eight we're here and we're gonna run this until
00:48:07the last customer shots on the lights towards the end of the internet whichever comes first that's fascinating in a true testament to the way you run your business because most companies try to build more acquire more yes yes takeover and you guys you guys have sold a job
00:48:25board I believe a year or two yes right and you've shut products and you and it's only make you more successful because you bring up all this time to actually focus on the thing it's it's not making as much success I think that that is if anything the
00:48:39thing that I'm most proud of the fact that we make these decisions and choices in the face of business realities that the best thing for us economically speaking would absolutely be to keep highrise to examine the systems to relaunch it there's a huge market opportunity here you can
00:48:59absolutely do that and that would be great business what would be our business and we're not doing business just for business right not doing it just for the money we've already reached the point of enough which is another key argument that we make in desktop to be crazy
00:49:13at work knowing when is enough when you're liberated to make your own authentic choices about what you want to pursue is absolutely critical I'm not gonna tell you like what is in the office but if it's never enough well that's right not that healthy that's a great place
00:49:36to leave work and switch to your life and %HESITATION you mentioned that you are a race car driver and I think lot of people want to know more about that and how you came to be a race car driver and you know what it gives to you and
00:49:53also people ask for a garage tour but we're we're we're on the podcasts but you know as much as you can tell us about your collection I'd love to know she was the first of all I'd say saying your race car driver sounds like that dandy I I
00:50:09probably shouldn't say that because it isn't I should say I drive race cars because I like it and it's fun cannot race car driver in that sense it almost implies that like this is what you do for a living it's not I wouldn't want to be a race
00:50:22car driver even if I could that is simply not a lifestyle that I find %HESITATION to be what about it but I do like driving race cars and I do like driving race cars because it is such an immediate way of accessing flow as we talked about the
00:50:44state where you're constantly in the prospect of trying to get along better are you getting immediate feedback from the system but you're working with in terms of lap times and what the approved or you didn't and there is a non sort of Grossman in the activity trying not
00:51:01to crash trying not to get into a serious accident it inner almost automatically command shared tire attention right so that has been done a lot of fun and I really had a great time doing it over the past ten years and so I said my first real race
00:51:18car two thousand and seven I got my driver's license at twenty five in two thousand and one five what kind of plan I made short work of the gap between %HESITATION in my driver's license and a center race race cars but %HESITATION that is and also maybe I
00:51:40mean does also then flown into general appreciation of cars I like cars and I like watches because both of them or have this sense of practical art to them and are the crashed ship to them he's just the kind of people who work on on products like that
00:52:03%HESITATION the amount of my new show and layers you can dive into it since arm fascinating and fun and %HESITATION I found that with both swatches and with with cars that I really just enjoy that %HESITATION again through the fortunes of a base camp I've been ash tak
00:52:24blessed %HESITATION to get to enjoy some of the finest specimens of both the categories in which comes to cars %HESITATION just had some really great experiences driving cars and the open road for me especially convertibles I'm I'm a big sucker for convertibles there's just something about being in
00:52:48touch with the environment and engaged in this activity that you can kind of put on auto pilot when you're just driving on the road yet you still have to keep your wits about and and it's just it's just awesome and I guess it just looking looking at them
00:53:03right back there the best examples of both cars and watches as they set their works of art you can we shoot them even if you're not sitting in it even if it's just standing still in the garage yeah so hobbies you yeah yeah it's it's a good hobby
00:53:25albeit a bit of expensive hobby but I suppose once you start winning races it pays for itself not at all not in the slightest sense of the word there's no money to be made in raising on your mind to be lost are one of the jobs and raising
00:53:40isn't if you want to make a fourteen or if you want to make a small fortune in racing you should start with a large fortune you will end up with a small fortune by the time you're done %HESITATION it is just ludicrously expensive to put it mildly and
00:53:55a lot of that is because the labor intensive sport right I'm going to race this weekend in Laguna seca north near some of his poetry and to put the two cars that we have on the %HESITATION on the team on the track I mean that's issued temporary should
00:54:15that's the company behind that with all the people show up on that weekend will be as large as base camp that's expensive and I mean that's kind of just just how this right %HESITATION but it also feels like well all things you could spend your time and money
00:54:34on %HESITATION pursuing a sport always a bunch of people and has a bunch of fans who are interested in getting terminal that and their son the worst thing you could do should also better things I'm going to hold it up to some high is pursued no I I
00:54:51do it because it's fun and because I can't and that yeah some of it give eve quota this quote from I believe congressional before that the best things in life are free and the next best thing expensive yes does that mean this racing deal is the second best
00:55:13thing yes and I think it in I was just thinking about this a couple days ago where I was working on a on some new software and at base camp and I was going like I don't know what I'd rather want to be doing right now but it's
00:55:28not even trying a race car right I'm literally having more fun I'm being better stimulated and it's more rewarding to work on this intellectual pursuit to to try to get this domain model just right for this piece of programming than it is to spend time in the interests
00:55:44are so for me as kind of like the pursuits that I can choose to harm programming in ruby that's that's one of those three things right all that takes its time and it's number one and then below that you have those sort of very expensive things that are
00:56:03in second place but the disk distance between those two things are very far I could give up race car driving tomorrow and I'd be like okay well I'll play PlayStation I think I'm a big fan of wipe out and force the motives for rising and also some other
00:56:18racing games on the computer and you know what not exceed that big of a step down compared to the fact that like I could not imagine giving up programming right like that would be a really substantial and deep felt lost in a way that giving up hobby like
00:56:38cars just wouldn't and there's a lot of things that are like that and I think getting exposed to those things is a healthy way of putting them into perspective because I find a lot of people grow old man it must be the greatest thing ever to be able
00:56:54to drive a race car owned it's you that nat car whatever and you want to go like you don't want any yeah I'm not a lot it's pretty sweet but that's pretty much the extent of it is not going to tell you it's not going to define you
00:57:10and all the problems in your life for not going to disappear and you're not also going to be transformed distances happy person just because you get to be exposed to these experiences that's not it doesn't work like that and that's not even that doesn't work from me like
00:57:25that I've never seen anyone work works like that for our show I think kind of getting exposed to some of the things I think is a great way of accurately assessing their true value and I'd say that they're true values far far below what most people have this
00:57:42fantasy that they are which gets back to the point we started with right like trying to figure out what are you doing in life and how why and asking the hard questions they don't have easy answers like co pilot it you know everything you saying you've written you
00:58:04don't come across as a very risky person maybe maybe more like you know honest and analytical but I wouldn't say it like you you wouldn't jump off a cliff without a parachute I'm extremely risk averse extremely risk averse that goes both for business and hobbies and all sorts
00:58:22of things and I think that's one of the other narratives that I'm keen to the single never have the opportunity entrepreneurs or race car drivers for that matter these extreme risk seeking individuals who only get a high in life from basic just hanging on the edge between %HESITATION
00:58:41totaled Morgan told destruction I am not that person influenced all my entrepreneurial decisions have been made with the intent my we have the saying that we don't send suspenders at the same time the cautious and very considered and always looking at the downside risk of like you know
00:59:06what the odds are that this will probably fail let me set myself up in such a way that when it does or if it does that's not devastating and I'm trying to do the same thing with hobbies I mean people look at race are trying to think in
00:59:20all while that's really dangerous and I mean it's not that it's without danger glad mom race cars have gotten extremely safe compared to what they used to be I mean if you are a star driver in the sixties I mean that was tantamount to having some a lot
00:59:34of fun of a death wish right but there's also the thing that for example don't want to do when I don't drive motorcycles and it's not because I don't think driving a motorcycle would be a lot of fun I and I said I love convertibles and like trying
00:59:49motorcycles like the ultimate convertible but I've never met a person who drives motorcycle don't have a story of a near death experience either personally or a friend or something else and just like you know what I I don't need that level risking my life I can just go
01:00:05out on a racetrack and stick something with four wheels on track in okay maybe you can have an accident and and I've had a few and some of those accidents can be terminal one day happen for people I've known but overall the risk profile is acceptable this brings
01:00:26me nicely to your family and your kids being a risk averse still a race car driver how does it work at home you know like how do you go and raise your car knowing that there could be potentially fatal accident how do I go about living my life
01:00:42in general knowing that there could be a potentially fatal fatal accident right people sleep in the shower all the time or more importantly they drive on the public roads and become one of those thirty six thousand people die every year in the US in an automobile accident right
01:00:58%HESITATION you still find ways to go on with our lives and not be ice by fear simply because you've made a conscious choice right like I'm look at race car driving and made a conscious choice than this and saw risk I'm willing to make and part of that
01:01:14is because living life it's not just about making it the odds of being it as long as possible art but that's not the game right think the game is to have it the worst let me and for me part of that insert for it to be worth living
01:01:32is to pursue things like rice progress on another bone set off with being extremely healthy about a lot of other things that are way more likely try to kill you charming race car smoke don't drink I keep in shape three fresh air I get lots of sleep I
01:01:53eat healthy %HESITATION I treat clean water %HESITATION I go for walks in nature and they're all these sort of more mundane approaches to how to live your life that will increase your %HESITATION metallic me data I don't mean giving up on things that you really in toward a
01:02:18tight race car and those for me here much easier sacrifices to make eating healthy breathing fresh air exercising or so and so forth like that that's not %HESITATION like I could combine reducing risks in those areas that I'm not gonna hopefully die from an early heart attack from
01:02:43the city or diabetes or are from %HESITATION particle matter filling my lungs or whatever else tax you I'm gonna take my wrists in other ways so it's not about so much eliminating risk as it is about balancing act sixteen now when they would not withstand that you fell
01:03:05in the sewer it happens all the time right but to be honest I was asking this question about it with a bit of a tongue in cheek because I think when you become a parent leaves for us and for a lot of our friends you feel like you
01:03:20need to bubble wrap your kids and maybe yourself as well and things become very dangerous very mundane things become perceivable dangerous right what if something happens and it's great to hear you say these things how just not maintaining a healthy living is probably more beneficial to your life
01:03:36than avoiding slightly higher risks situation also I mean when it comes to kids in particular that is the topic I do care about about trying to protect and like that is is not the goal right again the goal of living is not to make it as long as
01:03:51possible %HESITATION it is to make it as full as possible and rewarding as possible and part of making it as fools rewarding as possible includes taking reasonable risks and unfortunately I think particularly in the US people can be extremely risk averse to things that are extremely unlikely drop
01:04:16right arm and no if you follow the thing on the free range kids notion what the kid said agrees with your young ages they can kind of go about the business on their own as I did when I grew up in west most people did wore forty years
01:04:33or older when they grew up and these days it's a complete freak out it's almost a sort of a police action if you see an eight year old walking down the street by themselves right even though there's never been lower rates of kidnapping and violence and and other
01:04:51risks to these kids this is if you look at the the risks for example of suicide they just keep going up right and I feel like oftentimes parents are not attuned action into making careful risk analysis because they look at these two go one of my kids got
01:05:10kidnapped and not with my kid ended up miserable from feeling like a prisoner was being scored from cell to cell all the time with the supervisor guardian and then end up being so miserable that they kind of make the ultimate choice and killed himself that's of course to
01:05:30extremes out there but I feel like that's a far more credible risk %HESITATION suicide is already the second leading cause of death for teenagers right not getting caught kidnapped by someone it's succumbing to the pressures on the science of the life that their limit which in part includes
01:05:53there's bubble wrap approach and and is sealed to eliminate all physical risk while completely ignoring ornamental risks and I feel like that's an incredibly portrayed so is there anything is doing with your life to enable this free range childhood for children and a lot of it is just
01:06:15I mean nineteen kids hurt themselves just take one simple example right crawl on some rocks that kind of look dangers and they could hurt themselves short of them actually something position where they're going to kill themselves from something %HESITATION it's not a bad thing for kids to experience
01:06:37on that sounds like the consequences of their actions and the best teacher in many ways another example distance on my wife and I care greatly about eating healthy right but there's ways to invite your kids into into that eating healthy world but doesn't go through or we're going
01:06:57to ban all sugar for example right there also some bad things about she replied no one item **** ton of sugar growing up and so did a lot of other kids and yes some of them ended up addicted to them getting diabetes and talk about a lot of
01:07:11them also to write like let's perhaps keeps things a little bit in perspective and are just to complicated sometimes right that's not going to be the end of the world so I feel like trying to into our kids with this much economy as is reasonable and sometimes even
01:07:30a little bit unreasonable I'd rather do that and rather focus on that and sort of trying to protect them from all these long term dangers and which they're not really going to be going anywhere right like a soon as they're old enough to decide for themselves what they
01:07:47were conditioned to do was basing just you can't do this you can't do that what's the first thing they're going to do once they have the power to do it questions this is not courses thinks that they could do so that's another angle of it it's very refreshing
01:08:05and hopefully more people will pick up innocent and I'll follow along and let the kids be free but yeah here you have to basically given a slip that says you know I'm a free range child so please don like take me to a police station I'm just walking
01:08:19home by myself forces one if I ever make read that sure is going to say just be talking candy you don't have you had any really profound experiences that shaped you as a dad you said your oldest of six right so there's been quite a bit of time
01:08:37now I have had some are certainly had some influences I've been heavily influenced by a writer and educator called Alfie Kohn %HESITATION that Giles reading a bunch of book it books including the myth of the spoiled child punished by rewards punished by rewards in particular has been very
01:09:01influential not just on my relationship with parenthood but also as a leader and as a human of seeing some of that split between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation over and over again miss you stand on harming two tickets right I got a lot of kids today are a lot
01:09:25of ng Karen arms go on the order of like %HESITATION regions this point system I can get my kids to do what I tell them to do what I can get them to sit still and so on like okay maybe that's true enough sounds like a great way
01:09:39of growing the next batch of authoritarianism quarters arm but you know what I don't think that's a very healthy approach a lot of the times it seems like parents are on recently obsessed with obedience are and and educators to where are you should realize that kids are Tom's
01:10:02independent beings and they have their own parties have their own motivations and oftentimes they are in opposition to yours that does not make them bad right yes it may make inconvenient and may make it frustrating and it may do all sorts of things arm and you may wish
01:10:22that your kids would just do what you told them to but that doesn't mean that they shot or that it's better for them if they did in many ways it's much worse do write one and I tried to protect and nurture that healthy sense of distrust of authority
01:10:43and rebellion I mean it it's hard not for me not to smile when my oldest son says %HESITATION why do I need to do that just because you told me to the **** good argument right why does anyone need to do anything just because someone told them to
01:11:03%HESITATION now come up with some real arguments a new one oftentimes there's arguments fall part because the argument is that would be slightly more convenient for me and you like well **** you that's how I think right Mike I'm trying to sort of half the dialogue like if
01:11:19I was in my planet and that I would go like yet that doesn't that doesn't that's not a fair argument right you're basing is forcing me to do **** because she can't what a crappy relationship that and again that's a little bit on the point that sometimes there
01:11:34are times we just need to get a **** cargo %HESITATION those times are far fewer and further between then and most people seem to realize I wholeheartedly agree with all of the so that I'm just smiling from year to year and I listen to this because it's awesome
01:11:56and that we've also been in those situations and it's and it's really hard because as a parent I think you encourage that rebellious behavior and do you know to question everything but then when you get question you like are this is not a good time which is of
01:12:11course that it's the best time right because you can only do parenting when DC like what kind of parent that spot right arm and then I'd rather take my like this is frustrating and I'm no Saint regard I I can get extremely frustrated with the with both the
01:12:27kids at times when they're being one looks to me as being unreasonable right until I get a moment to breathe and think like you know what their their own persons and are within reasonable to you but to me is often completely reasonable to them and if I put
01:12:43myself in in their own shoes %HESITATION which particularly with my oldest one I now can't because I can room I have all sorts of memories from when I was his age so it's not that hard for me to enter into that mindset and think like yeah **** you
01:12:59right along and do what you say just because she told me to arm and and so it's kind of a balancing act of tolerating that frustration while the same time encouraging the independence and protecting the intrinsic motivation and allowing the kids to make mistakes too to Saint meaning
01:13:22been hurtful things somewhat in our shape environment where they can kind of act out those roles as they learn to hopefully do less of that stock and not be able to call me an **** punishes **** nilly on whims like some tyrannical king I think that's unfortunate rolled
01:13:42the it's very deceiving easy for parents to call in to %HESITATION you do what I say because I told you to that I mean the number of times kids around the world heard that statement it's just heartbreaking I think that that to me is the most totalitarian statement
01:14:02of most all of parenthood right you're gonna do this because I told you to not because it's a good idea not because I have reasonable arguments but just because I told right that's absolutely absolutism in most absolute form not it's an absolutely terrible parenting or dealing with anyone
01:14:22right no it definitely isn't I think so many people grow up that way thinking that way or being taught that way that when they become adults they can break through and I learned this that is sort of the tragic of how views sometimes replicate right I've I've had
01:14:46this discussion on Twitter couple times of I believe it's still legal in the US to spank your kids which is two means to sparking mark walking right like what the **** perverted medieval approach to parenting and something that thankfully was outlawed in nineteen seventy three in ten months
01:15:05maybe was an early American someone later either way it is outlawed now travesty than it is in the US that you just reinforce the idea that parents have this total dominion over their kids they can already tell him like what you doing all they can also physically punish
01:15:23them for being disappointed fox that I could probably talk about this for hours but I do have one question that I must get out early questions from my wife and it's you know it's giving everything you've done and how you can I came to be a wealthy person
01:15:47by hard work and sometimes kinda happy accident right where you met the right people or say you went to school but you tell yourself to program now knowing what you know about the world and the risks and opportunities how are you going to teach your kids about money
01:16:06yeah that is not any DC question because I don't need you see I think answered the stock answer for anyone richest like all younger teach them the value of money right I guess in like they shouldn't think that they just have the answer or whatever or one in
01:16:23me that this is how you end up with sport children if they just think that thing they have no concept in mind when they can just do all these things are by things **** nilly dental and up terrible people I'm pretty skeptical that the whole idea I think
01:16:37that most kids that fall under the stereotype of spoiled rich kids into being **** because prepares a **** **** not because the money now the other thing that is is it doesn't help to pretend right like how disingenuous isn't of me to spend also on godly sums going
01:17:03racing and then going to make you know you can't have this fifteen dollar toward that you want because what the money kidding me that's not congruent relationship with money so to speak %HESITATION so I don't think I really have the the final answer there except to say that
01:17:24I wish to de emphasize the value of money now there's a line to then you should be respectful then shouldn't grow up to be completely oblivious of that but I think most of the times people over correct and they over teach about money at least in the sense
01:17:39of the value of money right value of money gets placed on this pedestal listings the only thing that we should all be focusing most of our attention on getting one of talking Palmer's life that is rather teach all sorts of other lessons about how to live the good
01:17:59life that are not about like how can I make the most money here whatever and so I I don't have a final answer there I just have some no clues I don't want to be incongruent so I can't %HESITATION so be all uptight about a fifty dollar toward
01:18:19that that the kid wants while at the same time spending many times that to my own choice that's that's a good way of growing **** I think because we can't see that okay realize thought that you're being a completely hypocritical **** about that course they can of course
01:18:39you can draw the conclusions on that %HESITATION and then at the same time in some ways devaluing much right and and that is a luxury I I will a hundred percent cop to that most people do not have the luxury of devaluing money right because there's real bills
01:18:55and whatever to pay for it but if you do have that luxury he I mean do right because I think that the opposite is often true that it's rich parents went up over emphasizing the value of money and attaching all sorts of other meritocratic ideals to it or
01:19:13we have we are choosing good because we have a lot of money and the people who work really hard end up making a lot of money off the fox sick shut the **** up like that's not how the world works right and and I mean I even cringe
01:19:28a little bit when you send the insurance and there's like all you work really hard and and then you were also been lucky I didn't work very much harder than anyone right if you define hard as number of hours put in for example many people work way harder
01:19:44than me in way harder circumstances some of that was that the work I did end up being valuable to a lot of people are not market place approach and that's how current economic cysts system rewards people and that's just be **** honest about that let's not try to
01:20:02wrap it up in this year to Craddick myths the people who have the most money have the most money because they are virtuous and good and that they work really hard there's an endless number of people working each senior hard and do not have any money at all
01:20:19so don't give me that crap anyway these here and as you can here or not topics that I have fully fleshed out a completely coherent philosophy on even for myself so it's a work in progress but I'm one of the openness to talk about it publicly and honestly
01:20:39without trying to sugar coat it a pretend like you know all the answers so all things considered house been dead so far it's been wonderful we it's hard to actually imagine not having done that and it's very easy to imagine a great deal of regret if it had
01:21:06not happened right of all the things that I've done word like or if I had known that I would look back with regret this certainly ranks very high not at the top of the list and that's saying with the notion that like when my wife and I first
01:21:24brought up the topic and I was in this is certainly the most in to see asked about the idea at least not in the concrete maybe in the abstract sense of wonder sometimes but not in the concrete of like eight shortly arm but I'm very glad that she
01:21:40convinced me otherwise I wouldn't have it any other way and I think it's a extreme material part of what makes me appreciate life my own life the life of humanity in general to have your own offspring and it's been incredibly will morning to just watch things are not
01:22:03things humans that I had a part in making and I can see new strains of my DNA playing out kind of growing up and becoming their own persons that's just a remarkable part of the human condition that I fully understand is not for everyone and I wouldn't want
01:22:22to I'm certainly not one who wouldn't have kids you really love kids one people probably %HESITATION more unhappy with their kids and then they went out and that is something that very much is a personal choice to make but when I'm extremely pleased with having if you like
01:22:42what you heard the best compliment you can give us by sharing the show with your friends and letting people know what you think by leaving a review in I tunes thank you for listening this has been there at that show to next time

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