Full Transcript for They Called Scotty Cameron "The Copycat Kid" | Ep. 8

putters and somehow the lofts got a little bit ⁓ tweaked. Maybe maybe they they spent some time in the air. You know. Didn't take much. Yeah, it didn't take much. But you know, they were completely unaware that their putter was a chipper. And when I, you know, showed them I said, Hey, you the the reason the ball's going in the air is you have a chipper here, right? ⁓ I didn't think about that. Well, now now you can think about that. So I would say that, you know, it's a pretty small number of people that that pay attention to those details. Whereas that you know, if if if you're ⁓ somebody that specializes in anything, you know, you want to make sure that the the golfer has, you know, equipment that fits ⁓ So you know Loft and line and all that stuff, you know, it's just that the super basic stuff. Where it starts getting a little bit more you know, tricky was would be like grip size for the putter. ⁓ a little bit with the toe hang, non toe hang. You know, there's there's there's a certain amount of that. speaker-1: The rest of the fitting. But th and we'll we'll we'll go to because I think each one of these things today would be a good, you know, place for us to go. So you got not that many peop people take putting lessons, less than they take full swing lessons. Not that many people have been putter fit and even if you bought the putter that Chen just got, it looks like he's got some kind of crazy circle T, like special circle T ⁓ ants answer head. ⁓ it looks pretty good, to be honest with you. And ⁓ so you got that. People don't don't get putter fit, they don't even get the loft and lies checked in a putter. And they need to watch this putting podcast so they can learn more about putting. So the the point is is that it's probably the easiest thing to fix. Everybody wants to play a little bit better. If you just get a a a decently fit putter be dice to get a very well fit putter. And then take one or two putting lessons from somebody who at least has a, you know, Capto or Sam Puttlab or something, Quintech, much less maybe all three, and has a pedigree like John Ortega. And then it a little bit of practice and you and you got something. And I I just think that putting Even though everybody talks about it and Harvey Pannock sent all his tour players away and said, No matter what, have dinner with good putters because everybody's crying. And that's why this this show is putting is fun, because basically putting is fun if you putt well, right? And it's easier to get a little bit better at putting than it is at anything else. And it's just fascinating to me. The tour players, the opposite, right? They're all doing something on the putting green. I I would I I would say there was more what's the right word? I don't wanna say tech, but that's a good enough word. If you'd pull the launch monitors out of the T line at the US Open, you were there with Jake and I you know, I was there watching Michael Jacobson Chen with with Patty Harrington, ⁓ that practice putting green there, Shinnikok, not that big. It's not small, but it's not, you know, tour big. Th everybody was doing something. It was unbelievable on the putting green. So the tour players have figured this out, right? Because it's you know, you pick up a shot around putting, it's a lot of money, right? It's a lot speaker-0: Yeah, some of ⁓ pick up two two or more. You know, the recent winners have been ti pick picking up pretty close to ten shots. speaker-1: To the field. speaker-0: The feel yeah, it's r to the yeah, to the strokes gained. There's you know, those guys those get those guys get paid good money if they put b butt well. speaker-1: So So in the last let's say, you know, few weeks and everybody's in this this is a the kinda the tour championship, right? There's only thirty players in it, right? Jake finished thirty eighth at his thumb surgery. This is the time of year where people, you know, have time to retool, right? Y y you're starting to see some other trends. We were talking this morning. You you're starting to see some other trends now with ⁓ putters on tour. What what what's the latest? speaker-0: W you're you're seeing a little bit more of a ⁓ return to the zero torque or thereabout, ⁓ putter. You know speaker-1: Like a second look, maybe. Somebody might have taken a look, tried it a little bit, maybe in a tournament or two, then went away from it and now you're going back. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ it saw saw JJ Spawn look like he was back with his ⁓ you know the the f the lab, the newfangled lab. ⁓ Jake, Jake put a zero torque ⁓ Scotty Cameron in play toward the end of the season. who else? ⁓ Michael ⁓ Michael Kim shot fifty nine using the Taylor made spider with ⁓ zero torque. So I'm seeing like a return to that. Or I don't know if it's a return to that, but you know, you know, gets a second chance. It's getting a second or second lap. And ⁓ of course the Taylor made spider, you know, that's ⁓ just got some word today from guy that ⁓ is in the know. ⁓ he said that the Taylor made spider and the Cameron's were tied for ⁓ the the count for ⁓ the store championship. So you see a lot of those Cameron's are still around. You know, so you know, people were thinking that, you know, Cameron had lost a little bit of its sizzle but hasn't, you know, he's he's still still hanging in there. And ⁓ So is I was just seeing, you know, and he he he the guy told me that there more more ball ⁓ blades out there than you'd think. He said the the notion that blades are completely going away is not true. And he even kinda had a subcategory, like a Victor Hoblin, like that'd like a mid mallet, it's not like a big one. So so you know, that's that's quasi blade or just ⁓ kind of somewhere between the two, right? So he speaker-1: You know what's funny, ⁓ our funnel ⁓ Head of marketing, Allen. writing the ⁓ promos for for us, you know, like, you know, snippets from previous shows, has got it down now. Mallots and non mallets. You almost

need somebody that's not like in golf to like make sense of the wording. She gets paid because she's a great, you know, marketer, but she's you know, one of the things she's a specialist at is like choosing to write that's a that's it. The calling of the blade You know, just goofy. You know. 8802 is a blade. The Calamity Jane is a blade. It's not a blade. So it answers head or or a or a Victor Hovlin mid-mallet. Still not a mallet. So you got a mallet and a non mallet. Even though the mid-mallet is probably about the size of an Odie Christman, right? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, they're or you know, T P A eighteen, they're not super deep and they're not, you know, bulky, but yeah. So speaker-1: So, okay, so why do you think besides the title as money, right? Which is, you know, big, they're having a good good year, they're selling equipment back to they got some hot clubs finally, they got the hottest woods, you know, going pretty much. Why do you think there hasn't been more inroads, you would know you you you you you were out there for a while on the Scotty front? I mean he's Still the undisputed kind of king of that end of the putter world on especially on tour. Toulon tried to take a whack at it. I don't know if he's still on tour now that they've sort of split with Callaway. ⁓ w what what's keeping him at the top of that? speaker-0: Well his buttons regular golf animal. speaker-1: On tour, on regul ⁓ I just wanna so you could just answer both first on tour but then in in in regular golf as well. speaker-0: On tour, you know, he's he's had a good relationship with the tour players. They go to his studio and they feel well taken care of because they get to choose, you know, whatever they want. And ⁓ I've never been down to the studio but I understand it's, you know, pretty nice, bunch of cameras and they have a good way of evaluating this one's better for you than that one. So I think that's that that's the answer to the tour player part. And the second part is, you know, think about a hamburger, of course, In and Out's probably one of the best ones, but And I hamburger, if you just say hamburger, like you say sometimes, like with word association, hamburger, you go McDonald's, right? You know, hardly anybody's gonna say, you know, five guys or Burger King are gonna go McDonald's, right? So there's there's that, you know. So he's been, you know, well promoted and you know, with Tiger being Tiger and using the Scotty Cameron and, you know, all all the other guys over the years, you know, he's he's gonna, you know, be a formidable ⁓ place in the market, you know, even after he's, you know, not actually active in in making putters. You know, there's some talk that he's, you know, not completely going out to pasture, but that he's not as as involved as he once was. I don't think it's been announced by titleist, but ⁓ he he still has, you know, a big, big part of that ⁓ company and their Scotty Cameron offering. But you know, that name is, you know, synonymous with, you know, great quality putters. And, you know, until something changes, you know, he'll he'll still be, you know, number one or you know Close to number one for a long time. speaker-1: So on that subject, ⁓ my my great friend Mark Nunez, commissioner of the Nunez Tour, is an equipment junkie and ⁓ eBay world class eBay buyer. And he's run into some Japanese only, you know, like sold the Jap Japan and not over here, two lawn potters. And he bought a couple. He's putting with one. And ⁓ they're great. I mean, like he got some kind of unbelievable deal. It was like, I don't know, two hundred and nineteen dollars for a you know, really, you know to me looked a little bit better than the ones they were selling over here. Yeah. I have a couple. I I had the Callaway machine behind them. The putters seemed to be made well. There, you know, the he had some kind of cool whatever he called them, garage customs, stuff like that. But it really it didn't do that great in the marketplace. W has it? Hasn't, didn't and hasn't. Somebody that used to be in the marketplace and might be again one day. Why did you think the Toulon thing has not quite made any dent at all in the in the Cameron world? speaker-0: Well, I think a lot of the putters that he made were too much like Camerons. So, you know, when when you when you get something where you make a dent, let's call it, you know, the Taylor made spider didn't look like a Cameron. The lab putter does not look like a Cameron, right? So if you have something that looks too much like a Cameron, even though a Cameron looks a lot like a ping, right? But now if you look at the ping putters they're selling, they don't look they don't look like, you know, the old ping ants. ⁓ speaker-1: ping. But we're gonna talk about the the Wyndham Clock ping in a second, but but keep going. Keep going on too long. speaker-0: Yeah, so so, you know, Toulon, you l lot of his best putters were were answered style putters and they look too much like a Cameron. So, you know, in unless you have something that's ⁓ differentiates yourself or you have a top player using it over time and doing well, it's just hard to make any headway. So, you know, there are companies like Paretti, you know, that guy has really, really ⁓ extensive line that has, you know, all kinds of mallets and blades and You know, we you you name it, but you know, he he hasn't really made a big den on tour. He had had something going for a little while when ⁓ Henrik Stenson was using ⁓ a ⁓ a Pareti putter, he had a Paretti bag. So he started to make some headway. But the thing that, you know, makes makes a person, you know, notable in the marketplace is having enough guys on tour using their putter and and you know, have having a way that people can identify it. So if somebody's using a to a tool on that looks like an answer or, you know, like a Cameron. Nobody could tell, but you know, when somebody shows up using a a lab, it's like, Whoa, what's that? Or

when I was Taylor meets my like, What's that? You know, it's easy to ⁓ differen differentiate it from a camera. And so I think that was ⁓ the main reason that that Toulon didn't really have any any kind of traction or any significant kind of traction. speaker-1: You know, I always thought that maybe you know, it was a looks thing. Like I I I I I I don't know if he could have went a different way, you know, with the look of it, right? I I think the finishers were good, you know, for ⁓ it's just weird when you have a company that's a big company like Callaway, and then they have a sub brand, obviously Odyssey is is the sub brand for putters. And it was just never quite I know they did something with David Mills for five minutes, right? Didn't they? Didn't they did and then it I s saw him at the show and then all of a sudden it it went away. I thought that was a good idea, but they they didn't kind of follow through. What what do you know about about all of that? You know, as far as like, you know, the big I mean title is obviously put Scotty on the map, but it seems like when these other companies try to do something besides their own brand It it hasn't worked out at all. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah. So so one of the things that Cameron did that was genius, you know, when he came up with the circle tea. First it was a T and then too many people could buy a T and just stamp it on the putter and go, This is a tour putter, right? Then they came up with a circle T. And as as crazy as it is, it's a hunk of metal at the end of a stick. But when it has circle tea on it, it has some allure. And and even even though I know all of that, what I just said. When I see a circle T, you know, it moves me a little bit, right? Yeah. Even though even though I know it's it's a hunk of metal at the end of the stick and if a poor putter is using the thing, they're not gonna put any better than if they use just you know something you get off the rack that's like a you know, whatever. speaker-1: No doubt now now clarify this for everybody that this is like if I heard it, it it doesn't make it right. It's just it's folklore until we have the real answer. You would have I've been told that if you you you you go to Edwin Watts and you and you you know, Roger Dunn and you buy, you know, a ⁓ new port, whatever th it is now, you know, this all they've been rebranded twenty seven times. And that's a forge putter. that is milled at the end of the process to the mill, the forging, the end they put all the marks on it. And then the circle Ts are straight hunk of metal that is completely milled. Is anything to that or that's folklore? speaker-0: I don't know for sure because the the machine shops that do all that, they're they're you know, pretty ⁓ tight lipped about that. Yeah, so potentially, but you know, in the end, it really wouldn't matter either way because when they when they make blocks of steel, they forge ⁓ So it's it's being pressed. So e either way there's some pressing going on

somewhere somehow. So I I don't really see that there'd be any appreciable difference between something that's forged then milled. speaker-1: Bet speaker-0: than something that's milled from a block. I mean milled from a block's cool because you you have something to talk about. speaker-1: Huh? Sounds cool. Sounds cooler for sure. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. My my JTOs were milled from a block and they cost a lot of money to make that way, one piece. Now what a lot of people are doing now is they'll take like the basic shape and they'll friction weld the hazles or they're they'll weld them afterwards. So that's somehow become kind of a cool thing having a welded hazle. Back when I was doing putters, if you had a welded hazle it was kind of cheesy. But now it's it's cool. ⁓ you know, s the trends change. But with Cameron he just ⁓ was the right place at the right time. He made all the right moves. You know, so that that guy, you know, he did it right. And that's that's why he is where he is. And, you know, he's worth a lot of millions and you know, a lot of the things he did with dolling up putters and dolling up head covers and having the cool sweaters and the cool hats. speaker-1: Something besides the circle T, it's like the L speaker-0: I don't know about that. I'll have to I'll have to ask speaker-1: I think there's an L. Like I think if you play Scotty in golf, you know, for a dollar or a pizza or something, and you lose to him, you can get a circle L. I think. I heard that this week. I should have a little bit more information, but I just remembered that. Like I just I read it and I didn't ask you about it. And ⁓ speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Well, if if that's the case, if if he ever, you know, kinda warms back up to me, we're not too ⁓ and for some reason he he's somehow kind of put me on the list, which was fine. But then I would get a circle W. So most of the time when I play with him, I beat him. And if somebody wants to tell him that I said that, it's fine. It's it's true. Yeah. But we weren't necessarily playing head up, but we were playing together and anytime you play with somebody and you beat ⁓ you know you beat ⁓ right? speaker-1: That's I used to count all the people I beat one round in tournaments and it was a pretty good list. 'Cause all those people are old now, but I'm just saying I would beat, you know, ⁓ Willie Wood for one round and I would say I'm he's one guy I beat. I did one round in a in a four round tournament or something. speaker-0: And Scottie was a good player. He's a very good player. You know, so ⁓ back then I was a much better player than I am now, but ⁓ you know, th those are my glory days. But ⁓ you know the guy I I think I think he I think he could handle me pretty easily right now because he's been playing a lot of golf and I've been playing none. But he he's always been a good player. Back when I played with him, he wasn't particularly a good putter, but I'm sure over time being around putting and you know, all the good putters and being around Brad Faxon, 'cause they're they're they're pretty tight. I'm sure he's speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: lot better now. But you the that Scotty Cameron ⁓ phenomenon, it's it's, you know, fascinating to look at, you know, that that he, you know, made a lot of money making, you know, basically T Pmill copies and answer copies to begin with. And then as time went on and, you know, they started doing these ⁓ phantoms and all that, then you know, the creativity, you know, with him and his speaker-1: Copycat kid, that was what they called him, right? The copycat kid. speaker-0: Yeah, but but but not anymore. I mean the the butters that he's making the butters he's making right now, they're they're they're really nice, you know, and they're and they're, you know, driven by his creativity. So he did a good really good job, you know, so more more power to speaker-1: There are not five people on earth, literally. Now I'm sure they are. I'm just saying I don't know of five people on earth that I would say, okay, a really good lunch at a really fancy place might be three hundred, right? Right. Like I'm talking about really fancy place. But you you're not only gonna buy lunch, you're gonna throw another five hundred on the table. So you're looking at like eight, right? But you get to have a conversation. They don't have to answer every question that you ask, but it and and when Steve Jobs was walking this planet, he was at the top of the list. But Cameron is on that list because I I I just think f the branding information that I would get that he might give me because I'm not in the putter business, right? I d I don't really want to be in the putter. I want to design a putter. We've talked about that. But I don't really want to be in the putter business. But I definitely the just I think the guy is a genius when it came to the branding. speaker-0: No doubt. No doubt. Anybody that ar argue otherwise? speaker-1: It would be worth the five hundred plus the speaker-0: ⁓ easily. It was more like five thousand. If he g if you give you give me a tip or two, I'd give it I'd give him five grand if he'd give me the real skinny, but I'm pretty sure he'd pulled back for me. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. So so when you see these, we took it back to, you know, like we going from one to another. The welded necks, I'm seeing the twisted welded neck. Is it from a from a sheer put the putter in David Toms' hands, somebody with, you know, feel or Jake Knapp's hands, you know, young feel, right? Could they tell the difference between a welded neck putter and a non-welded neck putter? The two putters were Otherwise the same. speaker-0: I really don't think so. The only the only thing that we did giveaway, at least as far as you know, I can remember, 'cause I haven't really putted with the welded neck butter, although I have one right here. I could maybe try it like after we're done. But sometimes they would have like a little ring to ⁓ because it wasn't like

as as solid as as if it were one piece. So and maybe it was just not a good weld job. So if you get a good weld job that goes through and through, maybe there's no there's no telling. But I I remember some of the welded necks that we did, there was a little bit different sound and so sound and feel. Or you know, somewhat related. speaker-1: When y'all did the when y'all did the long neck answers, right? The the long neck with face balance, right? Long neck face balance answers or more face balance, a little speaker-0: ⁓ close. speaker-1: You were able the the question I had while you're looking for the putter is w you were able to to not have to weld it and just machine that whole thing, the big neck? speaker-0: Yeah, here's here's one right here. High beam. Boom. See that? R original high beam with a lot of s ⁓ material scooped out of it. This was ⁓ to ⁓ commemorate James O's US amateur win. See it says US Junior Amateur, I think it says that. speaker-1: Yep. There you go, US Junior Aminer. speaker-0: Yeah. So I bought this for James. I forgot to give him last time he was here. So yeah, but ⁓ s this is all one piece. And then you know, w when we first did a few just mock ups, yeah, we welded ⁓ but you know, we ⁓ we made this one, we made a high beam two which had a little less scoop. You ⁓ make too much of the scoop out, it's just this neck's susceptible to bend. So the next time around we just did less. But ⁓ this is speaker-1: Okay. That's a good putter to ask you another question as I stream a consciousness today. Hold that putter up in the air. Okay. Okay. Yeah. When you bend an answer, so somebody comes to you and you know a a plumber's neck, right? ⁓ could be an A blade, could be a a J two O. What's the proper thing to bend it? To me, this is just me, I don't know anything about anything. You you you don't want the beam to bend. You want the top part to bend off the beam. Is that even possible? Am I crazy? speaker-0: You were not crazy and I used to do that. And so when when people wanted me to bend their putters, I used to charge them a little bit extra because what I'd do is I'd take the the shaft out. Right. Then I'd hold I'd hold the neck here. Right. Then I'd put a like a rod in here. And so I'd just bend it from the top so that this thing didn't look arched, 'cause it looks awful when you do that. Yep. speaker-1: So yes. So ⁓ but you would think ⁓ the long neck is gonna look even worse than a normal plumber's neck height. speaker-0: Sure. Yeah. So so it's th that's the best way to do it. Now when you when you have a ping, it's pretty hard to do, especially an older one 'cause they knock those things together with ⁓ ball bearing, right? So you could hold it and you'd probably have to hold it right at the top there and bend the shaft a little bit too. You probably get a kink in the shaft. I I think it's doable, but those manganese bronze th they they don't like bending very much. So if you were gonna try to bend it, you know, three degrees, good chance you're gonna snap it. So it's like speaker-1: Ping still make a Magganese bronze potter? speaker-0: No, no, no. I don't think so. No, may maybe they they they do it ⁓ as a commemorative. I remember they had the Scottsdale series and I think they they they you know they they they did it now and then, but it's it's an impractical metal to make putters out of these days. There's so much better, you know, technology. You know, and stainless steel or carbon steel is just better. And ⁓ you know they're making the ⁓ that Wyndham Clark putter, it's mostly aluminum. speaker-1: That's what I wanted to talk about. So the Alley series, the white putterheads like the one that Wyndham Clark is tearing it up with. They're mostly aluminum, sort of like a ⁓ what's aluminum? Labs aluminum. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, they're mostly aluminum and I think they have a heavy sole on them. I'm not sure if it's if it's ⁓ stainless steel or if it's you know some copper. It's generally not gonna be copper because copper and aluminum, they they don't like each other. So when you do that as some kind of like ⁓ back and forth with the with the you know the the charge, the the electrical charge of the two. And then generally when that happens, they'll start getting some kind of weird growth on ⁓ between the two, unless you seal them pretty well. Cause we we made a putter called the Sequoia. That when we did that we just started like this. It was like a ⁓ it was it was like a disease that the putter was getting in. So, you know, so we we learned the hard way on that. But ⁓ you know, I think I I I'd have to look to see what it is, but it's a heavy metal on the bottom, you have aluminum on the top, and then the insert is some kind of polymer. And so that's when you putt with that, it feels real, you know, quiet and soft feeling. So it you know it takes a little getting used to, but Wynn Clark's pretty darn used to that thing and liking it, you know. His caddy, we his name's speaker-1: Steel shafts mostly, right? speaker-0: I think so. It almost looks plastic. You know, it's it's thin and it's black and I'd have to tink it a little bit, but almost ⁓ I'm I'm tempted to say it's not steel. You know, it's might be some kind of ⁓ like graphite. I don't I have to I'll to look at it more closely. But I've got one looking I'm looking at one over there across the room and you know, it's fun to putt with. ⁓ They're they're they're killing it with it, you know. So that that putter is keeping them busy. You know, so it's you know, s like again back to the ⁓ the toulon question. When you look at that putter, you know that that's a ping putter that's white, you know, if you're if you're paying any attention at all, right? So if you're gonna make putters and you wanna like succeed in today's market, you gotta have something that's distinctive. Like ⁓ clay long's making a putter right now that that has like porcupine like needles coming. So when you see that, if you you know, if

a tour player, you know, starts lighting it up with that, you'll go, Okay, that's a clay long porcupine. I know what he calls the model, but you know, back when he made the ⁓ speaker-1: I've seen it. ⁓ speaker-0: the the the the response putter. There was no mistake mistake in that for anything else. It's like that's the McGregor thing that Jack Nicholas was using and you know, it's identifiable. So I think, you know, going you know, if you wanted to get into putter making, better make something that's different looking if you wanna be ⁓ successful commercially. speaker-1: So who who among the people that we have sure you follow it? Some just like I follow the young teachers coming up, have you seen any up and comers that, you know, I know ⁓ the Daniel Carraher, you know, was a teacher of some note. ⁓ he got into p putter making and and ⁓ speaker-0: His putters look great. They're really good. I'll be getting one. Saving my lunch money. speaker-1: we go. And then and then the follow them on Twitter, MetalWorks. He basically does he does ⁓ mostly renovations, you know restorations and stuff, but he also has his own ⁓ putters. speaker-0: Yeah, there there was a guy named Logan Olson that was picked up by Taylor Maid for a minute that you know, he he did really nice work. And ⁓ what's there's one that's called Goodwood or something like that. It was kinda like Good Good but Goodwood and ⁓ what was the other one? Kingston. Is it a company called Kingston? Yes. speaker-1: Kingston, yes. ⁓ speaker-0: He's he's yeah, but pretty's been been around for ten years now. But you're talking about guys that are newbies. Yeah, dude. They all make really nice putters, but you know, I haven't really seen one that when you look at it and you go, Man, that's different. You know, I I I like classic putters, so you know what Daniel's doing, you know, I like a lot. You know, he's making some things that are, you know, these mid mallets and he's making some answer style putters and they look really good, you know. So ⁓ but you know speaker-1: Why do you thinking nobody's ever you know, in the on the subject of, you know, guys like Dan and then also classic, why do you think like one of these outfits That is new. Bake a a version of all the v classic putters. Do an Odie Christman, do a do a eighty eight ⁓ two, do a zebra, and just do it modern and better. Seems like that'd be a pretty good an pretty good ⁓ too good of an idea to say a lot. speaker-0: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It it I think the difficulty comes from you you're not gonna have a guy on tour using those things. And tour use drives the the market for everything. speaker-1: You don't think anybody on tour would putt with a really well done zebra, maybe a bigger version of it. speaker-0: I think somebody would that one for sure. Okay. So so you you came up with a good exception. Because you look at Sep Straca, he's basically using one right now. Yeah. It's it's ⁓ Odyssey. It's an Odyssey or a Callaway. I forg

I forget which. But if you look at it, it has the same shape as a zebra, has the lines just like the zebra. You know, it looks it looks really nice. You know, it's a modern version of a zebra, basically. So speaker-1: Really? ⁓ speaker-0: It has been done, but I think it would be at least in today's world it'd have to be something like that that would be Malladesque right now, 'cause those were s you know, even though ⁓ my my guy that gave me the information about ⁓ I ⁓ are did I tell you what the what the what the score was at the t tour championship as far as like the number one putter? No? ⁓ yeah. So it was the tie between the Taylor made spider and Scotty Cameron's, you know, the collection of Cameron. speaker-1: No, no. The first time that that's happening? speaker-0: I don't think so because ⁓ one of the tailor may Yeah, I'll I'll I'll I'll get I'll get a a count for like over the year, like what you know, if if the guy can, you know, get a tabulation for, you know, all all all year, I would think it would be pretty darn close. Just like, you know, this is even though it's small sample size, I think it would be pretty close, you know, Taylor made and and ⁓ Cameron. But yeah, so this and and the guy like I said, ⁓ maybe I didn't say it earlier, but the guy said that the mallet versus ⁓ blade, there are a lot more blades out there than you'd think still. Or you know, s we'll call them non mallets, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Yep. Nine Alice. Ella El Ellen. Emma is our creative director. speaker-0: Done now. Yeah, so so the non mallets. There there are more non mallets out there than you'd think. But you know, this ⁓ Taylor Mead Spider and and the and the the ⁓ Zero Torque right now they're kind of the rage or the close to zero torque, like like ⁓ Wyndham Clark has. speaker-1: So did y'all ever consider doing or did y'all do a insert in any of your putters? speaker-0: Yeah. We did one that was called the copper cush. What it was, it it was like hold this butter up because you can see it's like an answer style putter. Right. And and it had like all the way around the perimeter, there was a cutout, so the face is cut out. There was a place for a polymer gasket that went there, and then you put the copper on top of it. So it was and it was glued on with the super super duper glue. And so so there was like it was kind of a floating insert. Yeah. So we did one. Yeah, and then we did ⁓ the Millennium Next, so we did ⁓ it was ⁓ aluminum in the middle and stainless on the outside. I think I showed that la ⁓ one of the last shows. And so we did that and what else we do? A multimetal putter we did ⁓ as I ⁓ mentioned earlier, the sequoia, which was aluminum with ⁓ brass on the bottom. Or ⁓ yeah, cop yeah, it's brass. And then what else do we do? We did one that was called the H D W, it's my favorite, but I can't find one. It was it was kind of shaped like a zebra. It was ⁓ Like oval like and it was pretty big. And it there were ⁓ two hidden ⁓ dense weights in there. There were ⁓ tungsten. So it's called H D W, which was hidden dense weight. Pretty cool. If you look if you look online you can see pictures of one somewhere if you search hard enough. But so we did we did do some of that. You know, that's before you know what what now people are speaker-1: Is that is that putter behind you? Is that a terrilium insert? speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, this one right here. Yeah. speaker-1: So y you're seeing you're seeing a lot of those get r restored now because you can you can be you can find beat up ones for, you know, a decent money and then you put, you know, the restoration price in there, you can you got something. Why do you figure he didn't do that anymore? speaker-0: This button. speaker-1: Why why did Scotty Cameron not do more terrilum inserts, even though it has a kind of a following? speaker-0: Well he he did do a reissue, I think, ⁓ I don't know, half a dozen years ago. You know, so so he had speaker-1: Exactly is Terillium anyway. speaker-0: It's actually it's called I think it's called actual the the the name is tellarium copper. Tellarium but th they they they named it trillium because then they could ⁓ trademark that. So I guess I guess in in Toy Story, I guess there was one of the characters had trilum wings and so th they they coined that instead of calling it tellarium. 'Cause if it's tellarium, that's just a common thing. You can't ⁓ can't trademark it. So that's why they said trillium. So it's not really trulyum copper, it's tellarium copper. I think that's the way to pronounce it. But ⁓ I think you know, there's this at some point, you know, they're probably pretty expensive to make and pretty ⁓ labor intensive. Because the more times you, you know, p put things together, you know, especially you know the the fitting on this thing, if you look at it, I mean it's really well made, but that that insert is super, super tight in there, right? So there's not much room for air. And then I think there's some screws in the back, so you're, you know, popping something in that has to be perfect. put screws in the back and then you put the this white caulking and you gotta s wipe it off just right. So it's probably a really labor intensive ⁓ putter. So I I would say that would be the main reason. So so now the ones that they're offering that have the multiple pieces, they just get those things, you know, pretty well matched and and they can probably pop those things together w much faster. So speed matters in making putters, 'cause time on the machine or, you know, time having people working on costs money, right? speaker-1: So so so I've seen a couple milled like eighty eight ⁓ two my you know designed by Arnold Palmer shape putters, but I've never seen a good one. It w why why is that? I mean I guess the the the good Wilson now is halfway decent, but it seems like there's something about the shape of that putter that didn't lend itself or am I crazy with speaker-0: No, no, no, no. I don't think

anybody's done a really good ⁓ replica per se. I mean, I think Cameron's was pretty good. It was a little bit bigger though, because he wanted to, you know, bring the weight up. So it like he made one was the Napa, the t the Cameron Napas, those are pretty good. But I I don't think that the original Nappas had the neck that ⁓ I think he made one that was called California something or another. It had a really nice paintful on the bottom. That one looked really good, but it was kind of big because they wanted to bring the weight up. So you know, the I think the b one of the best ones really is this one right here. But again, it's bigger. This ⁓ Odyssey Whitehot number eight. This one has a pretty good shape. The way the neck looks, I like to call it a belly. So if you look at this part right here. Right there. So eighty eight ⁓ twos kind of have like a kind of a big belly. And y most of the people when they're making ⁓ you know, they're making ⁓ a little too skinny there. So there's something about that the way it looks. speaker-1: Right. Right. speaker-0: That just kinda catches my eye and if I don't see that it's like, yeah, that's not very good. Yeah, so if you look at Yeah, there we go. Even this one, this is like an eighty eight thirteen. Right. A little bit of a belly. ⁓ speaker-1: Real AV eight thirteen or or speaker-0: Real one. Real one. Real one, but ⁓ refinished. But this one, this is a pretty good eighty to two. This one just presents itself a little bit different the way you look at the neck. Yeah. So this one you you're probably gonna have trouble seeing it, but but this one looks a little bit fatter right there. It's got like a beer belly. This one went to the gym, lost a little bit of its beer belly. So Your belly are good on eighty eight ⁓ two. speaker-1: I I remember w the Trevino supposedly had like a stand and offer if anybody had one, he would just buy it right right then and there. They that they were that because they were all just a little different. speaker-0: Sure. Yeah. This one I have one that's probably as good or better than this one, but this one's pretty good. I got this one I think for two hundred bucks. speaker-1: Hold it up a little little bit more for the folks that can watch. speaker-0: Yeah, so so you can see the face is in pretty good shape. The top line has some dents in it. Does it eighty eight ⁓ two. Eighty eight. Yeah, and this one this one wasn't polished that much. So you almost wanted to get you almost want to get one that somebody that maybe just got a job there at Wilson was afraid of polishing it. So then they come out heavier. So it's just kind of more full figured. Yep. This one's good. Almost three twenty grams. speaker-1: So the one that that ⁓ you know, when b Arnold Palmer had his company, you know, right? And and they they came out with the the reissue, it was about nineteen eighty, right? The original was in the box, had the lighter colored leather grip. speaker-0: Except for Tiger Woods got

the black leather grip. Okay. speaker-1: Right. I I I had the I had the tan leather grip. Okay. The best design by Arnold Palmer I ever saw, and I've had famous players designed pies in my hand. Never got my hands on on a ⁓ you know, ⁓ a crenshaw's butter, but I don't want to say how maybe I was in a locker room someplace. I've I've had a lot of them in my hand. A a longtime friend and student d named Daniel Carr. Had to take a couple lessons from me when he was just starting out. He took a bunch of lessons, but I'm just saying when he had taken a couple of lessons from me when he was just starting out. No, he put a year on this. 86, something, five. So he was like a freshman on the golf team and he was a you know JV player and he got a lot better. And and by the way, I think he made a perfect score in the ACT test and got an unbelievable scholarship to college. But a brilliantly smart guy's a lawyer, great guy. Came take a lesson about six months ago. But anyway he okay, so we're already like third or fourth lesson, right? So we know we need to do damn, we gotta go putt. You know, we gotta go putt. So we're gonna do putting the second half of the lesson today. So we we went across the street and he pulls out his putter and it is soon as he put it in his hands, I went, This this this is this is the greatest remake I've ever seen. And I really never liked my whatever the Arnold Palmer Company one, you know, the one you sold Tiger, that I it always that putter always looked like it was like a design by a real design by that they dipped in chocolate or white chocolate or chrome colored white chocolate. Right. And and it it was like it had a like a coat it was like fatter everywhere. I I don't know if you had the same, you know, visual impression. I liked my putter, I put it with it for two years, but I'm just saying it looked nothing like the ones I saw at tour events where I picked the bag up and but the putter that Daniel Carr pulls out of his bag and starts like, you know, practice stroking with. I'm about to faint at how good this remake was. So the you look at the grip and wow, they did it perfect, right? It's the same shape and that little the little piece of cord that went around the grip. I went, look at this. And I looked down the shaft and it's the bright, kind of like brush look and not chrome. And the label, the what is it? Speed. What was it? Head speed. Head speed shaft. The label was perfect. And I got about three quarters of the way. It's like looking at a pretty girl. I'm looking down. I didn't even get to the puzzle and I went, ⁓ shh, this is not a remake. There's no way they got this sha exactly right. It was a ⁓ Nine seven five out of ten. Original. And it had no age look to it, like at all. Like okay, first of all, if I'm saying it's nine seven five, I'm saying the condition of the whole thing was nine seven five. But when you took the put, hey, let me see that putter, you know, let me see that putter. And I put it in my hand and I'm looking at it, I'm going, Okay, okay. How do I get this putter? I'm thinking I'm thinking bad thoughts. I could just run that, I could just start running down the street right now. speaker-0: I'll give you ten lessons for speaker-1: I said, Lee Travino, give me two grand, right now. It wouldn't even blink. This is 1986. You buy a car for two grand. And like I'm saying, to this day, it was the most flawless one I've ever seen, including several famous ones I've had in my hand. And it looked like, you know, the head looked like the one that Tiger Woods and I both had from the Arnold Palmer Company. Looked like they had de-frocked it. It just was skinnier. in all respects, maybe not in that little belly part of the hazel, but the overall shape of the head and like, you know, when when it came off the top line and went to the flange, it just looked skinnier and longer somehow because it was skinnier. Probably wasn't longer, but because it was skinnier it looked longer. And I I said, look it, tell your mom that I'll give you any putter you want, you know, and and another putter, you know something for this putter. And, you know, I get the finally the cut to the chase. I didn't get the putter from ⁓ It they wasn't stupid. And but here's the thing. How could that putter be that good? It turns out his grandfather had gotten a set of clubs close to when he passed. And then they thought, well, one of the kids will eventually play, but nobody played until Dan and then h he got the clubs. And I mean it was I don't know where they put it, wine cellar. I don't know how it had no visual signs of aging. Like if you take a brand new putter and you put it in your not garage, but you know, like a closet, and you come back in 10 years, it will not look like the day you put it in there. But this putter looked like it was like, I don't know, two months old and somebody had putted with it at putt-putt twice. And on that subject, why do you think none of the remakes ever had that? exact look. Because obviously they were getting some putters that probably look like Daniel's putter to to sort of like measure and scan and all, but none of them look like those really good design buys. And neither, by the way, on to I give you more to to chew on here, I I did them in my hand. But I got my head in the playing position, like where my head would have been if I had the putter in the hand of Nicholas's George Lowe Wizard six hundred. I mean, I I could have licked the top of the grip. My head was looking down. It looked nothing, nothing like any Wilson George Lowe, Bristol George Lowe, Ram Company, Bristol George, none of they all look fat and short. This putter again had the same basic difference between all its attempted copies, you know, in the future as the design by the Daniel Carhead. It just looked skinnier and longer. What am I looking at? And tell me why nobody could ever like duplicate it, especially in 2026. speaker-0: Well they could now. I think they could get

really close with all the digitizing, for sure. They could get real, real close. It wouldn't who knows how close, but a lot better than, you know the ones that you're describing. If you speaker-1: If you wanted to do it, separate question, I want to know why everybody's done such a terrible job over the years. But if you were gonna do it, would you do a forge putter like that, or would you do a build or some other 3D? speaker-0: I'd probab I'd probably I'd probably do a f ⁓ a milled one because if you're gonna do a forge putter like to to get a forging diet, it's pretty expensive. So probably make, you know, twenty or thirty of all milled real cool and sell ⁓ for, you know, thousand dollars or more per 'cause and if you're just gonna make that few, you gotta just or a lot more for ⁓ But ⁓ tru trouble is speaker-1: Try a little bit more fun. speaker-0: You know, you'd have to find a lot of guys like me or maybe like you, if if if they had a appreciation for, okay, that looks like it should, then you could maybe charge two grand for ⁓ You know, it's just so why speaker-1: Why were all these other copies through the years so shitty? I mean, they just really didn't look anything like these putters. speaker-0: Just lack of artistry. And I think like Cameron's Napas were probably the best looking ones. You know, th he he did a good job on those, you know. So I I'd say that you know, if you have a chance to, you know, look at some Napas if you go on ebay, you know, they're pretty good. They're really good. You know, and I think some of the the t ⁓ the ⁓ Callaways or or Odysseys, like the ones that they made for Mickelson, you they they look good, you know. So it it can be done, but I just think that, you know, that A, there's just not really a big market for them, so I don't think anybody's gonna put that much time and money into like making a really good one. I think that's the biggest reason why you don't see very many. And, you know, in the past they just weren't as good at, you know, making copies. You know, there's you know, the only the only exception would to that would be like maybe some of the Wood Brothers woods that were supposed to be like, you know, Tommy Armour's or the Cleveland Classics where they did like ⁓ eighty five lookalikes or you know th those those type of things or even like the Ben Hogan company when they were making those commemoratives. But ⁓ you know, with the putters, for some reason, you know, it's that's that's a good question. I I c I can't really answer that. speaker-1: So why do you think and okay, so just that it's hard to do apparently back then too. Why why the why the lack okay, f the you know, we just did ten minutes on a putter that was designed, really wasn't designed by Arnold Palmer. My guess is my guess is he took a IMG five forging and took the back and off. That's my guess. So speaker-0: Back then, not not so much. speaker-1: He tinkered and he liked the way that rounded look and then he putted good with it and okay. But that putter, Mickelson and Crenshaw, all this we're still talking about it, but the George Lowe Wizard 600, Nick Nicholas, Nicholas made more putts than Palmer over the length of his career. And it's a good the real one is a really good looking putter. Why did that never really like nobody would care if you made a perfect copy of that now milled or not? Nicholas the greatest speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It'd be it'd be worth ⁓ you know, like th those two putters, those two famous putters, the eighty eight ⁓ two or the palmer, whichever you want to call it, and and the George Lowe, whether it's the the wizard or the sportsman, I'm not sure which one it was for sure. But, you know, if if you made those, it'd just be hard to sell. I mean, there's maybe there's five hundred guys in the world that would be willing to pay what it would be worth, you know, or what what it what you'd need to charge to make it worth your while. Just aren't that many people that would want one. I even talked about when when I was thinking about making an eighty or two, and it must have been three years ago, then I kind of came to my senses. ⁓ I was talking to Gary Koch. I Yeah, I'm thinking about making an eighty or two and he looked at and goes like why? Yeah, Gary Coke speaker-1: Gary Coke. Who parted with an ⁓ who parted with one at some point. speaker-0: And well, yeah, he's going, Why? Like but he goes, But if you make one, I'll buy I'll take one. speaker-1: I'll I'll take it off your hands. Yeah, sure you will. You know, but speaker-0: But but but he did see he said why? And like, that's not a good idea. speaker-1: And and and what about the recreation or not of the is it more the putter weight or not of why nobody's tried to do that head speed shaft? speaker-0: Yeah, the putter weight. 'Cause i if if you got that head speed shaft and you put like a three hundred and fifty gram head on it, it'd be pretty, you know, pretty whippy. I'll try it. I've got head speed shafts and I I'm sure I can find I can just take one of my eighty eight ⁓ twos and weigh it up to three fifty five and see what happens. speaker-1: So we we had talked on a a previous episode about Acra. Was it Acra? Yes, Putter Chefs. Trying to see ya. speaker-0: You're talking about shafts? Are we talking about ⁓ that was what's it called? ⁓ C taper. What it w speaker-1: KBS. KBS. Sorry. Sorry, KBS. Sorry, Kim. So so but I know Acra does putting shafts too. So it and they tried to do some sort of search. Did the did they ⁓ did they come show you what they had? speaker-0: Yeah, I have some. In fact I put one. speaker-1: What what let's give ⁓ a plug. What what what is the ⁓ KBS new putter shaft thing coming down the bike? speaker-0: Well they have C tapers and they have one, I don't know what they call it, but it's kinda like the ⁓ what was the Apollo shaft that had like a skinny end and looks kinda like looked like a bubble shaft. It speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: Yeah, it's called a hump

shaft. I think there's so they've got like a hump shaft that you can, you know, trim to different lengths. If you want to make it stiffer, you t you trim more. If you want to keep more flexibility in it, you tri trim none, right? So they have that, and then they have some graphite shafts that are really they feel really good. Yeah, so just a variety of shafts and they look really good. ⁓ if you want, I'll go grab them and you can look at them. speaker-1: Is it is it the is it the are they available now? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. It's let's take a little pause and I'll go grab ⁓ so you can see. speaker-1: Yeah, we'll w we'll edit this we'll edit this down. Folks, I just want you to know that John's studio is a lot bigger than my studio, but it's not that big. I mean he he could have went to the Mexican place down the street. He got some tacos here. It would be hard to eat. So we're back with John Ortega and the KBS putter shaft line. And I have that exact team sh t shirt, by the way, John, in the exact opposite colors. I have the shirt, the color of your little skateboard, surfboard band. And the ⁓ logo in white. speaker-0: And so here here's the KBS, here's a white one. speaker-1: Pull it up little higher. Okay, and it's called the it's called a C taper. speaker-0: Called C taper one twenty. Yeah, C taper putter. Yeah. C KBS. And then speaker-1: So it's a white, just for the folks who are listening and not watching, a white KBS C taper putter shaft. speaker-0: Yeah, this will look pretty good if you put it on a on a white head or you know on a blackhead. This one I put together for Jung. I don't know if you've met Jung yet. Little J two O silver one. It has ⁓ kind of a greenish tint shaft. Also, you know, same same thing, C taper, but they you know fancify the color. It's it's it's very cool. Yes. It's very nice. So we're gonna we're gonna get some white iomic grips so we can put those on there. Now this one is speaker-1: ⁓ we call it mint green. speaker-0: graphite shaft right here. So you'd put this in like a like a like a answer style neck or you c you could get a ⁓ an adapter if you have like a shaft over speaker-1: F for the folks that can't see, Emerald Green with some really cool KBS graphics. speaker-0: Yeah, and it's kinda has iri a little bit iridescent looking. So it's so th there they're maybe speaker-1: A little more of a of a car, you know, tr classic car finish. speaker-0: Now this one is real trick looking. Look at that. Now that is iridescent. It's kinda green, it's kinda purple. You know, you twist it around and it you know, it gives you all different kinds of colors. speaker-1: One of the coolest putter shafts folks you've ever seen right there. And th and this one is a KBS What? speaker-0: ⁓ d doesn't have a name on it, but I guess it's just a C taper, just like the other ones. It says at the end it says yeah, C taper. Yeah. speaker-1: About that. So just different so different ⁓ now what about that one you were saying that has the drop down? We go the extra mile here on putty is fun, folks. We we were opening up boxes and We're breaking our teeth. We're doing all kind of good stuff. But we want to keep you wanting to go get the the thesis here. The thesis. Go get fit for a putter. Go take a putting lesson. Look at this thing. speaker-0: The hump shaft. See that can you see that little hump there? speaker-1: I i i it's big at the top and small at the bottom. I had a Northwestern driver that I played a college tournament with. And you know who else played with that driver? And had a really good US Open? Bruce Devlin in the famous nineteen eighty two US Open that ⁓ Clamp had finished up there and Devlin had a good tournament and old Tom Watson chipped in on the seventeenth ⁓ to beat Jack Nicholas out of his fifth United States Open. speaker-0: So they they have that in ⁓ that's I think it's only in black. So they call that the one step. One step. KBS they've got they're ⁓ up in their game with putter shafts. They're they're put on the stiffer side, that's what most people like. But this this one, the little hump guy, if you wanted to have a little bit ⁓ more flex in the shaft, like let's say if you had a three thirty Cameron head or something like that. speaker-1: One step. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. speaker-0: Right. Yeah. So this that's pretty cool setup. So you know I got ⁓ I don't know, ten free putter shafts, maybe eleven or twelve. There's free, I'll take three. If there's more, I'll take four. Putter shafts for days. speaker-1: Abs. Yeah, so so so so folks, the the the thesis for today is w we're doing this podcast, first of all, because we like each other and w we could talk forever about anything, but because it it's f the whole putting world is fascinating. The different ways to putt, and the w the grasses and all the stuff that we talked about, but at the end of the day. Go get yourself fit for a putter. I I've never seen anybody get fit for a putter, get get a good fitting, and then w think it was money poorly spent. Because there's nothing worse than seeing people putt with putters that are five degrees too upright for ⁓ and too long and too short, all this kind of stuff, and and and just I could give them a putting lesson in two seconds and John could do it in one and just a better setup and a better understanding of what you're doing. And ⁓ we we're trying to not only h have you have fun listening to two guys talk about putting, we're trying to make it where you have more fun. speaker-0: Sure, sure. It's just it's just it's just a matter of, you know, just having a mindset that you're you know you know, do what you can to putt better and you're gonna score better and scoring better is as far as I can remember, it's it's a lot more fun to shoot lower than it is to shoot higher, but it's fun fun just to shoot for now. speaker-1: When I got six under through fourteen in my last round of golf, it sure helped that I made about a bile and a half of butts to do it. It's hard to it's hard to get six under par for any amount of holes unless you make putts and and I ⁓ I think I've finally ⁓ putting a little bit better and we'll we'll talk about it in the next episode. So we got a nice song to play here. We know we're gonna play next week, John, in the next show. We're gonna play the spider songs. speaker-0: ⁓ for an Arnold Palm Blade or classic John Rooter. You can find your center and be a straight shooter. Train yourself to respect the three-footer. Bring out your Scotty or that new fango lab. Charlie be fair. Seems speaker-1: No gimmies. Or a KBS F. See you guys next time. Thanks Johnny. speaker-0: In a dream, putting your rose, gas soak, sun-free vitamin D is good for everyone. I'm just spitting facts, putting is fun