Full Transcript for Do No Harm

00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:48.720 I left. 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:56.240 I did two years at in NCC and then transferred up to NAMS, Northern Nevada Adult Mental Health Services and Sparks. 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:03.439 I did one full year there, which gave me 10, a little over 10 years with PERS, and I hit 60. 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:14.160 So I retired out of PERS, and then I went up and worked at the Indian Reservation in Oahe and did two years up at the reservation at the little medical clinic up there. 00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.800 I made a deal with them where I took my little motor home up there. 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:23.839 The reservation owns a little campground on one of the reservoirs right by the medical clinic. 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:32.000 So I'd park my RV and commute to work, and I'd do three weeks on, two weeks off, and I did that for two years. 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:45.199 So Forrest, I would say there are a fair amount of people who, when they enter the prison as staff, the majority of them are many times doing what you're doing. 00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:53.199 They want a job that covers them with insurance, covers them with public employment, a retirement system. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:07:01.839 And I think there are people who never really envisioned, hey, I want to work in prisons, right? 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.600 I think that's would be a rare type of individual. 00:07:06.079 --> 00:07:11.600 I don't think most people understand what it's like working in a prison compared to outside civilian life. 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:22.240 It's as an RN coming from county emergency rooms, which are like the bar scene from Star Wars, is chaos, it's controlled chaos. 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:24.879 It's you have to be very quick on your feet. 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:30.079 You got to be three steps ahead of everybody, you have to make sense out of chaos. 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:38.639 The prison system is so regimented and controlled in many ways is way safer than civilian medical jobs. 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:40.000 They don't understand that. 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:52.000 No, there there are always potential incidents, but there are far more when it's the wild west in emergency rooms where there isn't protection. 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:52.240 Trevor Burrus, Jr. 00:07:52.560 --> 00:08:03.199 The number of mostly nurses nationwide that are assaulted by patients numbers in the tens of thousands per year nationwide, where nurses are being killed. 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:09.120 But it's way more dangerous in the civilian world working in emergency medicine than it is in a prison system. 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:19.120 I think also there's a fair amount of people who feel that, at least when I started, people did not want to work in a prison environment. 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:34.879 And this is, of course, in the 1980s, but that had to do with the fact that they paid very low in those days, and then they realized as more lawsuits occurred for not giving

medical care, salaries went up. 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:52.000 And also then individuals in the medical world, predominantly nurses, who wanted more stability in their job instead of being yanked all over for different shifts all the time. 00:08:52.639 --> 00:08:55.519 And they wanted also the PERS system. 00:08:55.759 --> 00:09:01.360 When you entered the prison, did you go through any in-service training? 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:09.039 I, if I recall, and this has been what almost 15 years ago now. 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:13.120 We had one or two, but it wasn't strictly for medical staff. 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:24.240 This was for new corrections hires at Stewart School that went over prison safety, rules and regulations, how not to get compromised by inmates. 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.240 But it was a generic class for all new employees coming into the prison system. 00:09:30.559 --> 00:09:34.159 But I as I recall there was nothing specific for the nursing staff. 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:38.000 Yeah, I found that didn't occur either. 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:42.559 I was on the front line with no one to tell me anything. 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:54.480 And and that was I always felt inappropriate if you're thrown into a place and given no suggestion of what you're really supposed to do or not do. 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.240 Especially as a professional. 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:03.039 And I still remember where they jumped on me and said you have to write the drugs for the executions. 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:04.639 And I refused. 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:17.360 I'm interested in your thoughts about the prison and executions, because nurses are many times tasked with putting that IV in. 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.639 And that's your responsibility. 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.000 What would you think if someone said that to you? 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.559 Like they pulled you and said, Hey, you got to put the IV in for an execution, what would you do? 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:29.360 You can't. 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:30.159 You can't. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:38.320 We take the same oath within a few minor differences, the same oath that you do, on do no harm. 00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:40.879 And you can't do that. 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:52.000 And I've refused orders before for other medical procedures that I said we can't for law enforcement that we're trying to get like I was ordered one time to catheterize somebody to get a sample of mail. 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.000 And he I said, I'm not doing that. 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:54.960 Well, you have to. 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.360 I said, go ahead and fire me, I'm not going to do it. 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:03.200 But as an execution, you cannot force someone to violate that oath. 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.559 And plus, as morally, it's something I would never do. 00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:23.840 Yeah, I still remember I talked with some wardens because they were in a position where this is their responsibility to

coordinate an execution because they're mandated you're the warden or the prison director. 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:25.519 That's your responsibility. 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:36.159 And I remember one of the wardens, and I asked him because I said no, and no nurse wanted to do it. 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.720 I said, Who's going to put in an IV anyway? 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:40.639 And he said, I'm going to put it in. 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:43.440 I was a med tech in Vietnam. 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:54.000 Like, and that and that's not the main moral issue there, but as far as logistics, that lack of IV access is what makes lethal injection just go all wrong. 00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:00.879 I mean it's just it's a disaster if you don't have a patent IV. 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:05.840 Aaron Powell That subject is always dicey for people. 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:12.639 I think in the prison system, there's about half the states in the country that still have the death penalty. 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:24.960 And I was contacted when they were talking about the drug companies don't want to use the drugs and they want to sue the state. 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:31.200 And I've been asked, isn't it much better if we just go back to firing squads? 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:35.120 Not thinking, this is what are we, the wild west. 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.799 This is beyond what I get my mind wrapped around. 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:40.159 But that's the thing. 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:42.799 Well, that's like we had an earlier discussion. 00:12:42.879 --> 00:12:48.480 It's when I was a deputy, my last few years of that profession, I worked in courts. 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:53.039 I was a bailiff and then a supervisor up in the courthouse for security. 00:12:53.759 --> 00:13:12.480 So being involved in pretty much every single case that involved inmates and death penalty cases and serious prison time cases, you really learn quickly that truth and justice and what's right really don't have much influence in how court proceedings go. 00:13:12.799 --> 00:13:24.879 And a lot of guilty people walk away free, and there's a lot of innocent or because of situations beyond their control, people they get punished for things that really should be taken into consideration that aren't. 00:13:25.039 --> 00:13:31.759 And a lot of unfortunate poor people end up on death row, and a lot of affluent people do not. 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:42.559 And a lot of that innocence project and DNA testing has really shown over the years now just how many innocent, truly innocent people have been put to death, which is just an aberration. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:46.240 And the thing is, too, you want a punishment for somebody. 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.720 Life in prison is probably a way worse punishment than being put to death. 00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:55.039 And if they make a mistake, maybe someone can help you find out. 00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:56.240 Innocent. 00:13:56.799 --> 00:13:58.480 In fact, it's a little story here. 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.279 When I started at NSP, this old state prison, I'd been there for two weeks. 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:06.720 And I don't know if I can use prisoner names or not. 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.600 Just do their initials, I think. 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:16.240 I was the morning diabetics were coming in and I was checking their blood sugars and giving them their insulin. 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:23.440 And this great big giant guy comes walking into the clinic at Nevada State Prison. 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:29.840 And he looks at me, looks down at me, because I'm six feet tall and he towered over me. 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:34.720 And he looks at me in this big deep voice and he goes, Are you from Sonoma County? 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:36.320 And I go, Yeah. 00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:40.159 And he looks at me and he goes, You arrested me. 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:41.759 And I go, What? 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.480 He goes, Yeah, you arrested me down in Petaluma. 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:46.480 I said, Really? 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:47.679 I said, What happened? 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:49.360 He says, I'm I don't really remember. 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:53.840 He said, The only thing I do, I woke up in the jail cell and I had bruises all over. 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:56.240 I go, Oh boy, and he's huge. 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.720 And I go, Do we have a problem with that? 00:14:58.799 --> 00:14:59.759 And he goes, Well, no. 00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:05.440 I says, I was a real asshole when I was back then when I was drinking, and he says, I deserved it, I'm sure. 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:07.600 I said, So are we good? 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:08.879 He goes, Oh yeah. 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.799 He says, I can't tell you how good it is to see somebody from home. 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:15.919 But he was a former death row inmate. 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:16.720 Oh, wow. 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:24.320 He was a chef, worked at Circus Circus, was staying in a room at Circus Circus with the roommate. 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:31.919 He came home from the shift and found out that his drunk roommate had taken his high-dollar chef knives and had been carving on something. 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:34.159 They got in a fight and he ended up stabbing his roommate. 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:36.799 And I'm sure you know who it is. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.440 And he ended up on death row for that case. 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.639 I guess it was just a horrible I guess it was a horrific scene. 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.279 I mean, but he was he wasn't some evil sociopathic guy. 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:57.759 He was just some big, dumb knee-jerk drunk that overreacted, did something spur of the moment, not planned, not real good as far as control of emotions. 00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.960 And he came off a death pro when they overturned, was it the ninth? 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:09.600 Yeah, I think it would I think it was around 76 or so when

they started overturning it. 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.519 Yeah, Rose in the Ninth Circuit over in San Francisco overturned all those death penalties. 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:14.799 He was one of those. 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:16.799 But he he was just a big lug. 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:18.559 Yeah, the U.S. 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:23.600 Supreme Court overturned it, but then shortly the states went back to it. 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:24.000 Yeah. 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:25.519 One of those type things. 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:42.559 That whole death row thing is fascinating because I was asked to do it one of those executions, and the person who they wanted to execute and did was Buddy Thompson. 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:52.559 But he he had written almost quite a few pages the day or two before he was executed. 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:57.600 And the chaplain gave me those pages later. 00:16:58.080 --> 00:17:08.240 And I didn't read them for years because I don't know, that just uh was hard for me because I was going through my own issues with trying to survive in prison. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.960 And then later, when I read it, it wasn't that he said I'm innocent. 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:28.000 He basically was a call out to children to follow your parents, listen to the police, do well with your teachers, and don't go down the path I did. 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.400 That's really what his memoir was. 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:34.000 And a lot of them, too. 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:37.119 You look at when the crimes are committed and how old they are. 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:47.039 Another one is actually one of my favorite inmates that I ended up spending a lot of time talking with in the clinic was one of our workers who had been involved in a he shot a Reno cop. 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:48.240 Oh, wow. 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.200 Correct cancer here a few years ago. 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:51.599 Yeah. 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:52.799 He grew up. 00:17:53.039 --> 00:18:02.160 He was not the same, he went from this wild, violent, out of control jerk as as a younger man. 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:10.640 All of a sudden a switch got thrown, got stopped for a traffic violation, and took off, went to his house, barricaded, and then got in the shoot. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.279 He was shooting back, and he shot a Reno cop in the chest that killed the officer. 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.240 And I somehow he avoided the death penalty, but he was a lifer. 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:32.799 But that man that I used to talk to was not the same guy that 20 years earlier had been involved in that shooting. 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:38.400 He just he matured, and Wilson was a middle-aged man that was full of regret. 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.960 We talked about it at death, and it was just I would do anything, I would trade my life. 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:43.680 Who knows? 00:18:43.759 --> 00:18:48.079 But he seemed sincere in his remorse. 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.039 And but he

was not some wild 20-year-old anymore. 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.839 Yeah, I've got a question for you. 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:59.359 There were four teenagers who went to a drug deal. 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:04.400 They did not know that this individual was an undercover cop. 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:11.200 They started fighting with this guy, they had knives on them, and he died. 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:19.119 I know in court systems, if a cop dies, that person's not getting out of prison or death penalty. 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:20.000 Yeah. 00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:37.680 Now, if you have an 18-year-old who's tagging along and he doesn't know that, and he sees his other buddies fighting this guy, and he's trying to help his friends, and who knows which knife actually did put the guy in. 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:41.680 He's been in prison 46 years. 00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.519 A model inmate. 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.119 Do you think he deserves a second chance? 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:59.519 Everybody deserves a second chance, but it's hard to say if you're gonna get hoodwinked or but that's the risk you take. 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.079 Yes. 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:07.759 You have no guarantee that you're getting played or hoodwinked or not, or if it's legitimate, but everybody deserves a second chance. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:09.759 And you need to look at the big picture. 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.440 And and also you need to really look at the prosecutors. 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:21.759 The prosecution the motivation of the prosecutors, is it stats, or is it is this we're making or seeing the justice is done. 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:23.680 And there's no black and white. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:29.680 I learned that as a up in the court system working as a bailiff, there's no such thing as black and white. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.160 There's shades of gray to everything. 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:43.440 And you really have to be careful and look at think like an attorney, probably, and look at all sides and be able to put yourself in other people's points. 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:45.200 There's his version, their version. 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:47.039 You figure the truth is somewhere in the middle. 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:48.000 That's the problem too. 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:52.640 Speaking as a former law enforcement officer, not all cops are good guys wearing white hats. 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:53.200 Yeah. 00:20:53.359 --> 00:21:05.039 That I don't mean that's a pretty broad brush, but I also at the same time it's I don't want to disparage the entire profession, but there's guys that do things right and guys and gals that don't do things right. 00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:05.599 Of course. 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.319 You really have to be careful on the Trevor Burrus, yeah. 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:19.279 But I figured since you were in that police world, I always think is there, I don't know, there's an emotionality over the death of a police officer. 00:21:19.839 --> 00:21:33.519 You got a sentinel event where there's someone's been hurt very bad or hurt killed, that you always got to have someone besides your own people do the investigation on what happened because you have to be able to step back and avoid that. 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:34.000 Yeah. 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:37.920 And if you can't do that, your investigation is going to be tainted. 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:45.680 Working in the infirmary, did you ever feel at risk dealing with any of the inmates? 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:46.480 No, never. 00:21:47.359 --> 00:21:47.599 Right. 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.119 I was, believe me, I don't have rose-colored glasses. 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:58.400 There were plenty of people in there that were just dangerous jerks that I wouldn't turn my back on because I don't trust them. 00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.599 Or they wouldn't think twice. 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.119 To hurt you. 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:09.839 But as as a rule, most of the inmates there are kinda they put themselves there, but they also weren't still a world they have to live in. 00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:19.680 So they were kind of I think for vast majority of my life gave them the short end of the stick and they just are kind of along for the ride. 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:26.240 But as far as feeling endangered, I had enough years as a cop to do inmates or inmates. 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:29.759 But actually you got security, they're sober. 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.039 I mean, it's a lot safer than a civilian emergency room. 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:35.200 Yeah, that that's for sure. 00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.119 And with the nursing staff, there's always a director of nursing. 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.960 Did you ever consider being a director of nursing? 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:45.599 No. 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:53.440 I went and interviewed for a supervisor spot out in Ely, which I was strictly for boosted up. 00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:56.000 It would have been a three-year position out there. 00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:59.200 And that was strictly for bumping up the retirement a bit. 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.119 But I was just planning I would both airplanes an hour and a half flight from my house. 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.680 We got an airport where we live. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.240 But ended up not taking it. 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:16.079 But no, I was coasting. 00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:21.920 I lived through a number of different directors of nursing. 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:31.920 What do you think they could have done that would have improved the nursing world or the outcomes of the patients? 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.000 What do you think they could have improved on? 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:54.960 I think the main thing would have been the supervisors in the actual clinic and then the infirmary themselves writing realistic evaluations on the employees on who were competent, who were not competent, who was working, who was not

working, and work on improving the the professional level of the staff. 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:55.759 Okay. 00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.079 A lot of people worked. 00:23:58.160 --> 00:23:59.920 Some people worked a lot harder than others. 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:01.279 Yes, I would say that. 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.359 Yeah, and it was there's a bunch of us I think that worked very hard. 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:11.440 I would be embarrassed if someone said, Oh, you don't give good care, you don't take care of your patients, you don't know what you're doing. 00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:13.440 I would want to crawl in a hole and die. 00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:13.839 Yeah. 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:17.599 But there was a few co-workers that didn't care. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:19.519 That that always bothered me. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:22.079 That that bothered me as well. 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:38.559 But since I wasn't their director, if I would say something that didn't seem to pull over well, and then I learned we had nurses that my other nurses would say say, ah, that one never breaks suction. 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:38.880 No. 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:43.599 I.e., doesn't ever really get off the chair to actually do something. 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.039 Then this gets to your earlier question about working in a prison. 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.359 It's actually a really cushy job as a for a medical staff. 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:54.960 You don't see a large number of patients like you do in the civilian world. 00:24:55.279 --> 00:25:00.240 And it's well controlled, but the pay is good, the benefits are good, the hours are good. 00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:05.119 You for the most part you've got staff in the real world now. 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:25.440 It's the nursing staff are so understaffed and overwhelmed with paperwork and electronic charting and doing other professions work because it's cheaper to have a nurse do it than it is a phlebotomist or a respiratory tech or an x-ray tech or an EKG tech. 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:26.880 Oh let the nurse do it. 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:39.440 On top of your other so if you're an emergency room nurse nowadays, you'll have four, five, six patients plus some ICU patients that there's no room in the ICU, so you've got them in a hallway that you're responsible for with no help. 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.119 It's just you're overwhelmed. 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:44.559 Oh, that was a disaster. 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:44.799 Yeah. 00:25:45.119 --> 00:26:00.240 But prison nursing is actually well, like the best nursing jobs out there is kind of a hidden uh but it's it's it's a piece of cake compared to the civilian world, and it's nobody knows about it. 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:07.680 Yeah, and for me, I was thrown into the prison to do a four-year commitment for the federal government. 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:08.720 For your student loans. 00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.920 Yeah, for the student loans, National Health Corps loans. 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:26.000 And what I found is that I was so glad that I got thrown into the prison because I had that ability to do medicine without having to worry about making money off patients. 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:27.039 Exactly. 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:39.279 And that is a big one because I had the ability to examine and talk with a patient if I needed two minutes or two hours. 00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:46.880 I didn't have to worry about coding and figuring out how to get money or fight with insurance companies. 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:58.240 And since I had the infirmary in the back, the medical beds, if I felt someone needed to be admitted, I just admitted it. 00:26:58.319 --> 00:27:05.359 And then when they were well, they could go, or if they weren't well, I didn't have to fight with insurance companies or anything like that. 00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.599 So that that is definitely worthwhile. 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:22.799 I think for me, one of the difficulties was sometimes I would come up against custody, where their issues didn't always fit with mine. 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.359 Oh, and that's that's a battle. 00:27:25.599 --> 00:27:31.839 Yeah, that's a constant battle because I might say, this guy needs to go to the ER. 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.480 And they would say, We don't have enough staff. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:36.000 Can't he just wait till the morning? 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.119 I'm like, he might not be alive in the morning. 00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:44.240 And they said, and they wanted me to say, okay, we can wait. 00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:48.400 And it's like, no, if you're gonna do that, that's on you. 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:51.279 But I think this guy needs to go. 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:54.319 That's a multi-pronged problem, too. 00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:07.599 You've got medical versus security, and you've also got attitude, medical attitude versus the corrections attitude, which corrections officers and medical staff probably look at the completely differently. 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:07.920 Yes. 00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:08.480 Yeah. 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:11.119 Every inmate is a serial killer and gonna kill. 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:20.559 He's gotta go. 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:21.279 He's gotta go. 00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:23.599 Because we don't have the facility to take care of that. 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:25.359 So it's it's a battle. 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:33.920 Yes, for everybody that has different viewpoints in different training and different agendas. 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:53.279 One of the things I found which was unfortunate, is some of the medical staff, they had issues with inmates who had particular crimes versus in the outside world, if people come into an ER, you don't know. 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.200 You don't know what they did or what they did. 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:55.839 Well, you might. 00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:57.759 You might, but mostly not. 00:28:58.720 --> 00:28:59.200 Mostly not.

00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:00.160 Mostly not. 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:14.640 And I know that I had some nurses who, if the guy was a pedophile, I don't know, they had their own issues over that, and they just didn't want to give the care to the person. 00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.920 But that gets back to like with the death penalty, that gets back to your oath. 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:20.400 Yeah. 00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:22.000 What is your profession? 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:27.839 And I don't think anywhere in that oath that says do no harm except for this group of people. 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:29.839 Yeah, this that I didn't read that in there when I did it. 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.160 No, and that's why I always liked your voice, because you didn't have that. 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:34.799 No. 00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:37.759 But we did have some nurses that did have that. 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:38.400 No. 00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.400 That doesn't mean that I'm thinking it. 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:41.440 I'm not thinking it. 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:46.319 I as a cop, like Richard Allen Davis, he kidnapped little Polly class. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:48.160 I dealt with him, Sonoma County. 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:48.480 Yeah. 00:29:48.640 --> 00:30:12.160 And there were days when I was a deputy and I was I'd bring him in and on a court, that was my job, and park him at the defense table, that I would sit there and fantasize and think to myself, Forrest, if you had a terminal illness and only a few months to live, I would just unsnap my holster, a pistol, and put it up against his head and shoot him because it would do the world a favor. 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:20.960 Because this man is a monster, child killing monster, and there is no redeeming anything about this man and a couple of others. 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:24.240 But does it mean that I did that? 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:36.880 Or that was just something that went through my head because this guy was just he was just this loathsome, defective, miswired brain that served no purpose on this planet. 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:42.559 But I was that that was a thought, but that was nothing else. 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:47.680 But it didn't mean that I mistreated him or it was everything I dealt with him was strictly professional. 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:56.720 Yeah, I think some people have more of the judgment gene and and I have more of the curiosity gene. 00:30:56.960 --> 00:31:01.119 Like, why do they do what they do? 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:07.920 Because I I feel that if you don't know that, then how do you ever try to improve situations? 00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:10.240 To me, I look like a computer. 00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:19.599 People like Richard Allen Davis, who's I had the privilege taken to San Quentin with my coworkers and we dropped him off. 00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:21.279 His hardware is bad. 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:25.519 There's no amount of software you can put into that computer system to correct it. 00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:27.440 His hardware is broken. 00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:35.279 And other people have their hardware is fine, but their software is because the way they grow up in poverty or mistreated or something. 00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:38.319 Yeah, those are correctable issues. 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:46.000 You have some, the the sociopaths, the serial kill, I dealt with a lot of serial kills of kind of you don't fix those people. 00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:53.039 And all you can do to keep people safe is just get them locked up in where they can't hurt anybody. 00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:53.599 Yeah. 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.079 Yeah, you're not gonna fix that. 00:31:56.640 --> 00:32:05.920 But a lot of other problems, show them what they're doing wrong, get them some education, and get them where they can do some self-reflecting and go, oh boy, that's if I did really. 00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:10.480 Yeah, that's a great analogy, hardware versus software. 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:10.799 Yeah. 00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.240 Unless you could truly figure out how to take out the hardware. 00:32:14.480 --> 00:32:14.640 Yeah. 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:18.880 And right now we Actually I wouldn't say sometimes you do know. 00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:29.119 I think the most classic case was this guy in Texas many years ago who went up the tower and shot a bunch of people, and he had a tumor on the amygdala. 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:29.440 Yeah. 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:38.559 And so if that tumor wasn't there, they could come off, and then they don't have that the fear and the threat and the kill and everything else. 00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:51.119 There have been appellate cases where people have been con crimes like that, found a tumor, taken it out, all of a sudden that that tumor's gone and their behavior is completely different. 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:56.319 Now you've got a person in prison for life that's not the same person that committed the crime. 00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:01.279 Yeah, all those things are that gets back to there's no black and white. 00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:03.119 What do you do with that person? 00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:09.759 But to me, that's where I think the hardware if you could fix the hardware, if you actually knew how to fix it. 00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:12.000 It's like treating schizophrenic. 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:27.119 And that's why I think because I came from more of that medical side, I just thought of things medically versus you're bad, you're good. 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:27.920 You have to. 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:28.799 And that sort of thing. 00:33:42.079 --> 00:33:47.599 Do you remember anything for yourself which you thought was ungodly funny or just bizarre? 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:56.960 Well, I there were some moments, humorous and sad, and others. 00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.039 It's was Do you remember? 00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:10.719 We had one of the guys at the ranch, one of the horse guys, working a horse first thing in

the morning, got bucked or didn't get bucked off, he got run up against the and squished his arm. 00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:12.400 Squished his thigh. 00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:13.119 Oh, the thigh. 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.920 Oh, I remember that. 00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:16.719 He spent the whole day working horses. 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:25.119 At the end of the day, came up, walked into the clinic, yeah, said, Yeah, I banged my leg, my thigh hurts, and he had a big hematoma on his thigh. 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:26.000 Yeah. 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.519 And I sat him down and waited till you had a spot available. 00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:39.360 And as he started, we're ready to see him, and I was walking him across the room, and there was a loud snap sound, and he collapsed his femur fractured. 00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.639 And then it's going, and that was how tough those guys are. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:42.960 Yeah. 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:48.000 And he was in for his DUI, most of those guys were all DUI kind of guys. 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:51.519 But stoic, tough, hard working. 00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:59.920 Yeah, I when they started with the Mustang program, and I heard, well, they're going to be gentling the horses. 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:03.360 My first thought was like, oh no, we'll get more injuries. 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:11.519 But what I found out is these guys who were in that program, they would hide injuries from me. 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:12.159 Oh, yeah. 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:12.400 Yeah. 00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:23.280 And then other guys who were doing jobs they didn't like, they were constantly complaining and whining about small things. 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:23.840 Right. 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:35.360 So it it really shows that if you can figure out what job or service that an inmate can do that they actually enjoy, but they won't complain so much. 00:35:35.679 --> 00:35:36.320 But think about it. 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:48.000 A lot of these guys have come from these horrific horror story families growing up with abuse, but they have real problems making connections, emotional connections. 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:58.960 And you get them where they have to work with those horses, where all of a sudden it's, oh, here's something I can connect with and treat gentle and put time into. 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.079 And look at look how my effort is being paid off. 00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:11.280 Went to a horse auction down to prison here a while ago with a friend of ours that ended up buying one of the one of the horses, and she does all the horse rescue. 00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:18.159 And it was amazing the effort and the connection these guys have with those Mustangs. 00:36:18.320 --> 00:36:20.000 What a great program that is. 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.039 It's great. 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:31.039 And when I retired, and I was asked to help out on the Mustang movie that was filmed at Nevada State Prison. 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:38.719 And I

remember that four of the inmates I knew were actually in that film. 00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:53.599 And they were all not only really happy to be in the film, but they had become either a horse trainer or horse furrier with the hooves and and were in that world. 00:36:54.079 --> 00:36:57.519 And they really enjoyed doing what they did. 00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:06.559 One of them I still remember was he was half Yaki and half Apache, so he really fit in the movie. 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:08.960 And he was an excellent horseman. 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.679 Yeah, that was such a wonderful program. 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:17.280 And with the dog program, since you were at NSP, you were involved, the dog program. 00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:32.480 And I know for myself, in the days before the dog program during summers, I would always have a good jaw fracture or two on the Nevada State prison yard. 00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:37.519 After the dogs came in, I didn't have one jaw fracture. 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.000 They stopped, they didn't fight as much. 00:37:41.920 --> 00:37:43.280 Everybody wanted to be around the dogs. 00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:45.039 And they wanted to keep it. 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:54.320 And they picked the guys who had been there many years, so they had sort of their own reputation and gravitas or whatever it was. 00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:02.000 And they basically made sure we're not doing nonsense and fighting each other. 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.079 At least not let custody know about this because we want to keep the dogs. 00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.400 Yeah, but it's gets back to it. 00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:21.519 There's something you can have a connection with, and you're in prison, but you still get to take care of a dog and have a companionship and let your cellmates play with the dog, pet the dog, and connect with it too. 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:23.599 And that's that's that's a victory. 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:42.400 Yeah, when they had when they lost one of the Nevada's NSP doctors, when they didn't have anybody, then myself and my other doctor at Northern Nevada Correctional Center, we would once a week come over to sign charts and see somebody that would really had to be seen. 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:54.559 And I definitely told the custody officer, look, if I come over here at lunchtime, I want one of the inmates to bring in a dog so I could play with the dog. 00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:55.119 Yeah. 00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:04.079 And it was so funny because the custody officer would have these little teeny little dog biscuits that were only an inch long that I could give the doggy. 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:06.639 And then the inmate would be like, Dr. 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:09.039 Kidd, don't you want to adopt him? 00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:10.239 He needs to be adopted. 00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.159 Oh my God, it was adorable. 00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:14.320 That was really adorable. 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:23.840 And one of the things I had with some of the nurses is they were compromised by inmates. 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:29.440 Did you have any of that interactions or knew nurses who were compromised? 00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:39.599 I knew one of them that came and went that she either got compromised at NNCC or she also worked up at Washoe County jail. 00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:50.480 And I don't know if it was here with us or up at the jail that she ended up in a situation, sexual situation with an inmate, which is just ungodly stupid. 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.960 But she's the only I heard the stories from people in the past. 00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:58.159 I think there was one nurse there that smuggled in a cell phone. 00:39:58.559 --> 00:39:59.679 She was a dental tech. 00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:10.719 She gave the phone to one of the dental technicians who was an inmate helping with the dentures, and he coordinated an escape. 00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.960 Yeah, but somebody died in that, if I remember. 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.559 Not that one. 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:19.119 He got out and he went to Las Vegas and did bad things. 00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:24.639 But that's that also happens with the correction staff. 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:29.440 When I was a deputy, I was also our sheriff's department pilot. 00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:31.599 I was one of the pilots for the department. 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:43.119 And I remember flying detectives around different state prisons around California to interview female inmates who had been involved with corrections officers back up in Belmont County. 00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:55.199 And our detectives would interview, because they were charging the corrections officers with assault under color of authority and in private and department violations along with criminal violations for having sex with the female inmates. 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:02.639 If you decided to write a book about your time as a prison nurse, what would the title be? 00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.960 Something about Northern Nevada Convalescent Center. 00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.320 Something about these old inmates that were happy to be there. 00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.320 Autumn was their retirement plan. 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.920 Probably be something humorous about just how these guys like being there. 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:43.760 I think the greatest thing is that if you've got old guys in prison who have been there 30 or 40 years, and they don't have any family on the outside or anybody who really wants them in the outside world, the worst thing possible in their brain is like I don't want to be dumped out on the street with nothing. 00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:45.519 Oh and that's terrifying. 00:41:45.840 --> 00:41:51.840 I had conversations where the plan was, as soon as I get out, they didn't like state prison. 00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:53.280 They like federal prison. 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:54.000 Okay, yeah. 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:58.639 And I was talking to one old guy one

day, and he goes, Yeah, so they're kicking me out of here. 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.400 He says, This place really sucks. 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:01.760 You guys just aren't real nice. 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:07.840 He says, I'm gonna I'm gonna commit a crime and cross state lines real quick so I can go to a federal prison. 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:09.840 He said, They're like family there. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:10.320 Yeah. 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:12.800 The food's good and they really treat you well. 00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.119 Yeah, I don't like the food here. 00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:22.639 And others, it was if you don't mind the food and lack of sex, this is a really great place to retire. 00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:29.280 You got don't have to work hard, you got TV, you got a nice yard to walk around, and they said, This is really a nice place. 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:34.000 And you just go on, I know your sights a little higher, buddy. 00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:38.719 But at that point, when they're 67 years old, you know what do you they're stuck there. 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:45.760 I remember when one of the psychologists, Mary Harrison, started the True Grit program. 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.119 It was really a miracle for the medical department. 00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:50.320 They took care of each other. 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:54.880 Also, because we had that ability to staff a nurse there, yeah. 00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:02.800 These guys didn't have to walk long distances in winter storms waiting for a long time to get a pill. 00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:13.199 They couldn't get their wheelchairs fast enough through the snow to get to the culinary and then wolf down food when they don't have any teeth. 00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:15.039 It was always a problem. 00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:20.719 So that was a godsend, really, to have a geriatric unit. 00:43:21.199 --> 00:43:34.000 And when I started the prison, we had very few old guys, but Northern Nevada Correctional Center, as you said, a lot of these old guys with medical problems were just shipped to us. 00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:38.079 So we had men who had been in prison for so many years. 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:44.880 They were 60s, 70s, 80s, and just really and then get demented and not know where they were. 00:43:45.039 --> 00:43:48.880 Yes, they're never couldn't find where where they were going, so they needed to stay in a place. 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:50.320 Yeah, they're never gonna leave. 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:53.360 You're you got no place to send them to. 00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:53.920 No. 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:55.920 No, they're there for the duration. 00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:02.159 And that's why sometimes you have to think about how long does one really stay in a prison? 00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:06.960 Because you stay too long, you're not gonna be able to function in society. 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:16.159 Think about it, and I do as is what our economy and things get rougher and rougher for people. 00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:24.320 If you got dumped out on the street with, say, 50 bucks cash right now with the clothes you're wearing on your back, how would you survive? 00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:25.280 You wouldn't. 00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:26.400 What would you do? 00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:35.840 Especially if you had no education, no coping skills, broken hardware, yeah, or software in your little computer, how would you survive? 00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:36.639 You wouldn't. 00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:39.519 Other than crime is the easiest solution. 00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:39.920 Yeah. 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:45.360 And then get back into the system where you know it and you function in it, and they take care of you. 00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:46.400 I agree. 00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:47.039 Yes. 00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:48.719 Thank you very much, Forrest. 00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:49.519 You're welcome. 00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:50.559 Thank you for having me. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:53.199 Thank you for listening to Prison Unlocked. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:45:03.920 Our goal is simple to help the outside world better understand the people, challenges, realities, and human stories that exist behind prison walls. 00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:08.960 Join us every week for more rural conversations from both sides of the wall. 00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:24.239 To listen to additional episodes, learn more about the podcast, explore resources, or purchase my book, Thirty Years Behind Bars, Trials of a Prison Doctor, and visit PrisonUcked.com. 00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:44.239 You'll also find links to organizations making a difference beyond the podcast, including Reconnect 180, which supports a successful reentry after incarceration, and the Nevada State Prison Historical Society, dedicated to preserving an important part of Nevada's history. 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.199 I'm Dr. 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:46.239 Karen Giddon. 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:49.360 Until next time, thank you for listening.