Full Transcript for How Institutions Unite Around a Shared Mission

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WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.459 A network isn't just making money, but something 00:00:03.459 --> 00:00:07.519 that can demonstrate how different ideas and 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:34.310 people can come together. The value has to come 00:00:34.310 --> 00:00:37.130 from that layer built around the shows and shared 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:41.600 mission and message. Enter my guest today. Jenis 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:44.020 Benelli started her podcast, Democracy Works, 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.619 at Penn State's McCourtney Institute for Democracy 00:00:46.619 --> 00:00:49.880 in 2019. After hearing about a collaborative 00:00:49.880 --> 00:00:52.579 podcast model, she began thinking about how that 00:00:52.579 --> 00:00:54.840 approach could serve shows focused on democracy. 00:00:55.619 --> 00:00:58.259 That idea became the Democracy Group, a collective 00:00:58.259 --> 00:01:00.859 built around collaboration, cross promotion, 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.299 and public education. Adding Brandon Stouffer 00:01:04.299 --> 00:01:07.260 soon after the network began, and together, Jenna 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:10.280 and Brandon have shaped the democracy group into 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.659 a creator community that supports independent 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:15.159 shows while giving them ways to learn from one 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:17.920 another, reach new audiences, and contribute 00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:21.579 to a shared mission. I'm Greg Wasserman, host 00:01:21.579 --> 00:01:24.019 of this amazing show, Podcast Network Insights. 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:26.719 I've spent 15 years of my career in advertising 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:29.819 sales. Since 2021, I've been immersed into the 00:01:29.819 --> 00:01:32.930 podcast industry. I believe life is about time 00:01:32.930 --> 00:01:35.409 and relationships. You never know where one conversation 00:01:35.409 --> 00:01:38.010 can lead. I've built a lot of relationships and 00:01:38.010 --> 00:01:40.310 spent a lot of time connecting with podcasters 00:01:40.310 --> 00:01:43.030 of all different sizes, whether the solo creators 00:01:43.030 --> 00:01:45.670 just getting started or, like my guests, the 00:01:45.670 --> 00:01:48.450 heads of networks. If you've ever wondered whether 00:01:48.450 --> 00:01:50.969 joining a network makes sense, how these networks 00:01:50.969 --> 00:01:54.549 actually run, other networks you can ensure exploring, 00:01:55.329 --> 00:01:57.790 advertising with, partnering with, learning from, 00:01:58.530 --> 00:02:00.409 then my goal is to give you a real look behind 00:02:00.409 --> 00:02:03.519 the scenes. so you can confidently navigate whether 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:07.239 you host, produce, sponsor, or run a network. 00:02:08.039 --> 00:02:10.099 As you listen to this episode, pay attention 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:12.560 to how Jenna and Brandon create value without 00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:15.840 asking every show to operate the same way. They 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:18.560 explain how they decide which shows belong, why 00:02:18.560 --> 00:02:21.460 audience overlap can become a problem, how they 00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:23.900 operate their unified feed differently than other 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:27.219 networks, and how a network website can serve 00:02:27.219 --> 00:02:30.840 both listeners and members. Stay tuned after 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.219 the interview, as there's more to the conversation, 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:36.159 as I share some of my takeaways. With that said, 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:38.979 time to learn from Jenna and Brandon. We know 00:02:38.979 --> 00:02:41.000 the name of the show is Podcast Network Insights, 00:02:41.020 --> 00:02:43.080 so I always start with the first question being, 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:46.419 when you hear the name Podcast Network, what 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:51.300 does that mean to you? What comes to mind? Jenna 00:02:51.300 --> 00:02:53.939 or Brandon, whoever wants to take it first? Yeah, 00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.919 I think for me, and part of the reason that I 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.979 wanted to start the democracy group was to have 00:03:01.979 --> 00:03:04.759 maybe a bit of a different spin on what it means 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:08.960 to be a podcast network. I think for a long time, 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:12.139 I thought that it was just all about ad sales 00:03:12.139 --> 00:03:15.419 and making money and not to say that those things 00:03:15.419 --> 00:03:19.740 are not important. I know it's a livelihood for 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:24.000 many folks in podcasting, but our network is 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.840 set up a little bit differently in that we are 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.409 more like I've described it as mutual aid for 00:03:30.409 --> 00:03:34.770 podcasters. So focusing more on collaboration 00:03:34.770 --> 00:03:39.210 and cross promotion. Many of our shows are produced 00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:43.490 by universities or nonprofits or have their own 00:03:43.490 --> 00:03:45.849 external funding sources. So in some ways we're 00:03:45.849 --> 00:03:49.729 very fortunate that we don't have to rely as 00:03:49.729 --> 00:03:53.550 much on advertising. So for me now, when I think 00:03:53.550 --> 00:03:57.430 about a podcast network, it is really more about 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:00.979 that. that collaborative sense of it as opposed 00:04:00.979 --> 00:04:05.900 to strictly a business sense. And Brandon? Yeah, 00:04:05.979 --> 00:04:09.789 I think kind of dovetailing what Jenna was talking 00:04:09.789 --> 00:04:12.550 about is because our network is so focused on 00:04:12.550 --> 00:04:16.899 collaboration and the focus of what a lot of 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:19.720 our podcasts are on, which is democracy, we're 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.819 sort of trying to demonstrate that in how we 00:04:22.819 --> 00:04:26.360 collaborate with one another. a lot of our podcasts 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.480 have different viewpoints

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or like different topics 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.480 that they're talking about, but being able to 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.839 collaborate towards a bigger mission, which happens 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.360 to do with education around democracy and do 00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:42.060 different initiatives. So a network isn't just, 00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:45.100 you know, making money, but something that can 00:04:45.100 --> 00:04:48.579 demonstrate how different ideas and people can 00:04:48.579 --> 00:04:51.790 come together. Thank you guys both. So I guess 00:04:51.790 --> 00:04:55.959 I'll start the conversation here on One of the 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:57.920 topics you guys both just brought up is the fact 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:01.379 that your network is backed or the shows mainly 00:05:01.379 --> 00:05:03.860 are backed by universities. So you're like, all 00:05:03.860 --> 00:05:05.720 right, the ad sales, not something we need to 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:07.839 work about because they're being funded by the 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:10.500 university. But we also look at where university 00:05:10.500 --> 00:05:12.879 funding is going. So how have you guys figured 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.480 it out? How do we get shows included in this 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:19.740 network? But knowing that we've got to make sure 00:05:19.740 --> 00:05:23.360 that these shows keep getting funded by the institutions 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:27.990 that that they're backed by. Yeah, I mean, times 00:05:27.990 --> 00:05:31.089 certainly are tough, not just for universities, 00:05:31.329 --> 00:05:33.290 but for nonprofits. I mean, really for everyone, 00:05:33.709 --> 00:05:36.949 I feel like. But, you know, one of the things 00:05:36.949 --> 00:05:41.509 we look at when we bring on a new show is their 00:05:41.509 --> 00:05:45.069 sustainability, right? So what, in terms of, 00:05:45.269 --> 00:05:47.629 is their audience growing? How are they working 00:05:47.629 --> 00:05:51.769 to promote? their shows, what can they bring 00:05:51.769 --> 00:05:55.029 to the network in terms of new audience or other 00:05:55.029 --> 00:05:58.790 opportunities. And I mean, none of us have a 00:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.750 crystal ball. So it is entirely possible that 00:06:01.750 --> 00:06:04.269 one of the organizations we work with could pull 00:06:04.269 --> 00:06:07.089 the funding for their show tomorrow. And that 00:06:07.089 --> 00:06:10.129 just is what that is. But I think if that were 00:06:10.129 --> 00:06:12.470 to happen, there would be, I could see one of 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:15.490 two solutions or one or two paths. One would 00:06:15.490 --> 00:06:19.639 be that the the hosts and the producers and the 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:21.620 people working on the show would probably keep 00:06:21.620 --> 00:06:25.259 doing it anyway as a passion project or a side 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:29.540 gig because a lot of the shows are passion projects 00:06:29.540 --> 00:06:32.100 in a way, regardless of if people are being paid 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:34.819 or where the funding for the show is coming from. 00:06:35.139 --> 00:06:37.399 So I could see people keeping them going just 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:39.980 because they believe in the mission and the work 00:06:39.980 --> 00:06:44.779 so much. And two, you know, I think that there 00:06:44.779 --> 00:06:50.279 is I think, a sense of collaboration among our 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.000 network members. And, you know, we have actually 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:57.639 had one of our former shows actually went dark 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:01.079 because one of its hosts passed away, unfortunately. 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:04.360 And they had built up a fairly large feed. They 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:07.860 had tens of thousands of subscribers, which might 00:07:07.860 --> 00:07:10.220 not be big to some people, but in our little 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:12.420 neck of the woods, that is a fairly large audience. 00:07:14.490 --> 00:07:18.550 And another network member actually absorbed 00:07:18.550 --> 00:07:21.209 that show and sort of merged it with the show 00:07:21.209 --> 00:07:25.209 that they were doing. So they picked up that 00:07:25.209 --> 00:07:27.490 feed and all the subscribers that came with it 00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.490 and brought it under their umbrella. So those 00:07:30.490 --> 00:07:32.529 kinds of things have happened as well. And I 00:07:32.529 --> 00:07:34.250 think it all, again, it comes back to everybody 00:07:34.250 --> 00:07:36.910 really believing in the mission and the work 00:07:36.910 --> 00:07:40.509 and wanting to help each other succeed. I think 00:07:40.509 --> 00:07:43.930 one thing that I'll add is not every single one 00:07:43.930 --> 00:07:47.009 of our members comes from an educational institution 00:07:47.009 --> 00:07:50.009 or even a nonprofit organization. We have some 00:07:50.009 --> 00:07:53.449 independent creators as well, and some that are 00:07:53.449 --> 00:07:55.769 independently going and getting advertising on 00:07:55.769 --> 00:08:00.079 their own and making an income that way. The 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:02.500 nice thing about having that, a variety of different 00:08:02.500 --> 00:08:04.300 creators and where they're getting their funding 00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:07.040 or how they might be sustaining themselves, is 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:09.680 we often have a network meeting between all of 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:12.100 the creators in our network to come and say, 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:14.040 hey, here's how we're growing our show. Here's 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:16.079 how we might be getting funding. So, you know, 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.980 if one of the institutions like Jenna was saying, 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:21.199 for whatever reason, doesn't get funding anymore, 00:08:21.600 --> 00:08:23.300 they can start to lean on maybe some of these 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:24.860 independent creators and say,

how did you go 00:08:24.860 --> 00:08:26.899 about this? How are you still keeping your show 00:08:26.899 --> 00:08:30.300 going? So not only a... variety of ideas, but 00:08:30.300 --> 00:08:32.159 a variety of ways that these podcasts are being 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:36.659 built. That's a great point. Understanding it's 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.799 not just if anyone's listening is going like, 00:08:38.840 --> 00:08:40.820 all right, I would love to join this network, 00:08:40.820 --> 00:08:43.159 but I'm not part of a university, but I believe 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.279 in the mission. Great. You can still do it. And 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:48.220 I guess to that point, what is the mission of 00:08:48.220 --> 00:08:50.320 the democracy group? Like, how do you define 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:53.480 what is a good show? Who's the right show to 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:56.419 join, to join what you guys are championing? 00:08:57.169 --> 00:08:59.850 Yeah, do you want to take that one first Brandon? 00:08:59.889 --> 00:09:03.210 Do you set up our new show intake process? Sure. 00:09:03.350 --> 00:09:07.690 So at the core of the democracy group, we really 00:09:07.690 --> 00:09:12.889 care about is democracy obviously, but more so 00:09:12.889 --> 00:09:16.629 like educating the general public to people that 00:09:16.629 --> 00:09:19.730 are not necessarily doing this every single day 00:09:19.730 --> 00:09:22.070 already boots on the streets, you know, making 00:09:22.070 --> 00:09:24.149 things happen, but people that are interested 00:09:24.149 --> 00:09:28.809 in it or people that Kind of consume other types 00:09:28.809 --> 00:09:32.409 of media and maybe adjacent and have some adjacent 00:09:32.409 --> 00:09:37.529 interests and by Identifying creators that can 00:09:37.529 --> 00:09:41.549 speak to those people and make these big ideas 00:09:41.549 --> 00:09:43.769 Something that's tangible for them that they 00:09:43.769 --> 00:09:47.629 can grasp on to The more the better so when we're 00:09:47.629 --> 00:09:50.210 identifying who would be a good fit for the network 00:09:50.250 --> 00:09:53.370 We're looking at over their content and seeing 00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:55.269 you know, what sort of topics do they talk about 00:09:55.269 --> 00:09:59.009 we try and? remain nonpartisan. So being able 00:09:59.009 --> 00:10:01.830 to have sides speak to each other, being able 00:10:01.830 --> 00:10:04.529 to speak about the ideas rather than attacking 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:07.690 one another. But then also who is the audience 00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:10.769 that they're talking to? What sort of things 00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:14.200 are they doing to make these concepts digestible 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:17.179 for that audience? And that might be in the topics 00:10:17.179 --> 00:10:19.639 we're talking about, but it might also be in 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.299 the channels that they're engaging in. We've 00:10:22.299 --> 00:10:25.480 kind of expanded from just being a podcast network 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:28.799 to a creator network, looking at YouTube, looking 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.460 at Substack, looking at social media channels. 00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:34.620 And how are they taking these big ideas and democracy 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:38.379 and making it digestible in those channels? Yeah. 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:43.139 And just to reiterate, I think for me, the pillars 00:10:43.139 --> 00:10:46.320 I always come back to are a one, a commitment 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.679 to democracy. And like Brennan said, that means 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:51.960 working across the political spectrum, trying 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.840 to bridge divides, focusing on things like voting 00:10:55.840 --> 00:10:59.159 and civic education, not necessarily like in 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:02.299 a camp for one candidate or one party or the 00:11:02.299 --> 00:11:07.899 other. And that sense of education, right? So 00:11:07.899 --> 00:11:11.139 not necessarily as much about like being a talking 00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:13.840 head and putting your opinion out there though, 00:11:14.139 --> 00:11:15.639 you know, not to say that there are certainly 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:17.960 lots of opinionated people on our shows. And 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:19.720 I think that's one of the things that makes podcasting 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:23.320 such a successful medium, but just doing it with 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:27.029 an educational lens in mind. And then I think 00:11:27.029 --> 00:11:28.769 Brandon hit on a really important point there 00:11:28.769 --> 00:11:31.870 about, you know, what topics are maybe adjacent 00:11:31.870 --> 00:11:34.549 to democracy? Because at the same, you know, 00:11:34.629 --> 00:11:37.149 on some level for a subject -focused network 00:11:37.149 --> 00:11:39.509 like ours, it can be really easy just to have 00:11:39.509 --> 00:11:41.889 25 shows all about the same thing that are having 00:11:41.889 --> 00:11:44.250 the same guests on. And then what's the point? 00:11:44.470 --> 00:11:47.330 There's no real discovery there for our collective 00:11:47.330 --> 00:11:52.629 audience. So we do try to look at folks who are... 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:55.000 you know, looking at different areas, but through 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:57.759 that same lens. So one example, we're getting 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:01.200 ready to onboard now a woman named Corinna Belitzi, 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:03.759 who hosts a show called Care More, Be Better. 00:12:04.179 --> 00:12:08.799 She came up in the social impact space. She worked 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.299 at Nordic Naturals, which is like a supplement 00:12:11.299 --> 00:12:14.259 health company for a long time and now has a 00:12:14.259 --> 00:12:17.059 PhD and does all kinds of work. But she talks 00:12:17.059 --> 00:12:19.779 about climate. She talks about health. She talks 00:12:19.779 --> 00:12:23.720 about those kinds of things. She also

talks about 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:27.019 voting and civics and some of those things, but 00:12:27.019 --> 00:12:30.980 her audience... I'm going to guess probably doesn't 00:12:30.980 --> 00:12:34.200 listen already to any of our other shows and 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:36.100 nor does any of our existing audience listen 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:38.399 to what she's doing or read her sub stack or 00:12:38.399 --> 00:12:41.559 follow her on social. So those kind of partnerships 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.700 that can really help everybody expand their understanding 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:47.960 and the things that they're interested in, I 00:12:47.960 --> 00:12:50.759 think is where we're looking to go moving forward. 00:12:54.190 --> 00:12:57.370 You know, other examples, we have a show that 00:12:57.370 --> 00:12:59.490 a large part of their audience is technology 00:12:59.490 --> 00:13:03.830 entrepreneurs. We have a show that focuses much 00:13:03.830 --> 00:13:07.230 more locally rather than a national level. So 00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:09.429 each one of the shows, we're kind of trying to 00:13:09.429 --> 00:13:11.309 get just a different lens, a different audience 00:13:11.309 --> 00:13:13.409 so we don't have that major audience overlap. 00:13:14.429 --> 00:13:16.870 And so it sounds like those three different shows, 00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:20.110 I'd go like, where's the democracy group? Like, 00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:24.129 where's the umbrella of what The message is, 00:13:24.289 --> 00:13:26.690 because as you said, Jenna, your example, I'm 00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:29.590 like, hold on. How does that fit into what you 00:13:29.590 --> 00:13:32.230 guys are doing or the mission? Or is it just 00:13:32.230 --> 00:13:35.389 an alignment of like, my show may not be talking 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.830 about just rape democracy and the traditional 00:13:39.830 --> 00:13:43.210 sense, but I believe in that. And so I want to 00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:46.549 be associated with a community, a collective, 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:49.549 a network. whatever word we are going with, right? 00:13:49.669 --> 00:13:52.590 That's what I love about my show, is you and 00:13:52.590 --> 00:13:54.809 I talk, Jenna, it's like we're less of a network, 00:13:55.049 --> 00:13:57.450 we're more of a collective, but today you've 00:13:57.450 --> 00:14:00.309 looked at it as a different word. So is that 00:14:00.309 --> 00:14:03.080 kind of how you guys are thinking about it? Yeah, 00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:06.639 I think that's certainly part of it. And I would 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:10.159 say the ethos that underlies it all, no matter 00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:13.120 what the topic is, if it's tech, if it's climate, 00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:16.600 if it's... voting, if it's, you know, some of 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.320 the other reforms that that our shows cover is 00:14:19.320 --> 00:14:23.340 that a really a grassroots bottom up kind of 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:27.100 approach. This is not, you know, waiting for 00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:31.919 an institution or a leader or an elected official 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.639 or something like that to come and make the change. 00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:38.259 It's no how can we all work together to create 00:14:38.259 --> 00:14:41.360 solutions or at least at least try to work together 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:43.799 anyway. Certainly not everyone is going to be 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.919 successful, but I think that that desire to try 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:52.559 and collaborate to create a better world and 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.879 more access for everyone, which is a pillar of 00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:59.419 democracy, would unite all of the people that 00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:01.659 we work with, regardless of what topics they 00:15:01.659 --> 00:15:05.179 cover. Makes sense. And if you think about the 00:15:05.179 --> 00:15:08.700 common citizen, They're not thinking about democracy 00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:12.220 in the same way that an intellectual is. An intellectual 00:15:12.220 --> 00:15:13.879 is going to be talking about these pillars of 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.440 democracy, talking about structures and reform 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.559 and things like that, where the common citizen 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.379 is like, how does this policy apply to me? And 00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:24.480 that's why having these different topics, those 00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:26.100 are topics that people care about. They're topics 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:28.320 they engage in a lot more. You know, the show 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:29.940 that we have coming on, people are engaging with 00:15:29.940 --> 00:15:32.279 their own health. It hits them every day, right? 00:15:32.659 --> 00:15:36.330 So if you can find... ways that democracy is 00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:38.509 associated with that. It gets them interested. 00:15:38.850 --> 00:15:40.750 And they're like, well, I care about this. So 00:15:40.750 --> 00:15:42.610 maybe I actually do want to go vote. And maybe 00:15:42.610 --> 00:15:44.129 I do want to be a part of these movements. And 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.690 what else is going on? So it's just sort of like, 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:51.029 I like to call it, you know, wrapping your broccoli 00:15:51.029 --> 00:15:53.669 in chocolate, giving them something that's sweet 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:55.870 to get them to have the nutritional things underneath. 00:15:56.750 --> 00:15:58.769 Good thing I just had lunch. Otherwise, that's 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:04.259 dessert, right? Yeah. So then if we look at the 00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:07.960 core non -profits, institutions. I mean, you 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.740 think about how much red tape there is, like 00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:14.840 how do you guys get new shows, how do you find 00:16:14.840 --> 00:16:18.700 new shows to join the network when some of those 00:16:18.700 --> 00:16:21.019 shows are like they've got their own

internal 00:16:21.019 --> 00:16:27.129 politics or their own internal views that they're 00:16:27.129 --> 00:16:29.570 like, I'm not sure if we want to be part of that 00:16:29.570 --> 00:16:31.289 because they're already part of the institution. 00:16:31.889 --> 00:16:35.690 Yeah. I mean, recently, a lot of our new members 00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:38.250 have been people coming to us or people referred 00:16:38.250 --> 00:16:41.809 to us by folks who are already part of the network. 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.409 So I don't know, we haven't done as much scouting 00:16:44.409 --> 00:16:49.500 as of late. And I think one of the nice things 00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:52.980 about being more of a collective type of model 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:56.940 and no money changing hands is that it does reduce 00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.759 a lot of that red tape. Somebody's finance officer 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:03.259 doesn't have to get involved or anything like 00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:06.480 that. We work with some very bureaucratic... 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:09.359 organizations and they figured out a way to make 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:12.200 it work. I think because they're able to articulate 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:15.980 the benefits of joining to whoever the powers 00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:19.599 that be are in their organization. Like their 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.759 show is going to grow more through our network. 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.359 They're going to have access to more opportunities. 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:31.089 And even just from a... an interpersonal perspective, 00:17:31.390 --> 00:17:34.230 you know, this can be very lonely work, as I'm 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:37.910 sure you know, Greg. So I think our folks just 00:17:37.910 --> 00:17:41.329 appreciate those quarterly meetings that we have 00:17:41.329 --> 00:17:44.210 just to get together and talk about what's working, 00:17:44.309 --> 00:17:46.690 what isn't, what struggles are people having, 00:17:47.549 --> 00:17:50.769 just to, you know, celebrate the wins and commiserate 00:17:50.769 --> 00:17:54.329 the things that are not going so well. I think 00:17:54.329 --> 00:17:57.230 that is often a benefit that people don't anticipate. 00:17:57.390 --> 00:18:00.009 coming in, but ends up being one of the things 00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:02.190 that they appreciate the most about being part 00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:05.660 of it. So you say most of it right now is coming 00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:07.880 to referral, and you haven't done a lot in terms 00:18:07.880 --> 00:18:11.890 of championing the network. Is that something 00:18:11.890 --> 00:18:15.390 you guys look at? I can think about how, because 00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:18.970 we met at the Higher Ed Podcast Conference, so 00:18:18.970 --> 00:18:22.250 be the community you get by a bunch of higher 00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:25.170 eds coming together and understanding. We're 00:18:25.170 --> 00:18:27.390 all trying to do this within our own university.

00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:30.130 Oh, great. Let's us bring this together. So I 00:18:30.130 --> 00:18:32.849 can imagine you championing, hey, how do we go 00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:34.829 to universities and go, you guys should start 00:18:34.829 --> 00:18:38.470 a podcast that covers this topic. And have you 00:18:38.470 --> 00:18:39.930 thought about it? Is that even part of the mission? 00:18:39.950 --> 00:18:42.150 You're like, Greg, I don't even have time. So 00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:44.829 that sounds great, but that's not going to be 00:18:44.829 --> 00:18:46.849 something we are doing from a growth standpoint. 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:51.460 Yeah, I mean there are certainly a lot of democracy 00:18:51.460 --> 00:18:54.980 centers popping up at universities I could probably 00:18:54.980 --> 00:18:58.579 name at least ten of them right now, please don't 00:18:58.579 --> 00:19:03.750 ask me to do that, but You know, I think doing 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:07.829 that, and I talk to folks who are starting podcasts 00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:10.809 at those organizations fairly regularly, but 00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:14.410 I think the danger of bringing on too many similar 00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:16.450 shows or shows from similar organizations is 00:19:16.450 --> 00:19:18.430 what we were talking about earlier, the kind 00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:22.750 of too much of the same for our audience. So 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:27.769 that's a tricky line to walk because we want 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.789 to keep in mind what what we're building and 00:19:30.789 --> 00:19:33.130 that we're continuing to bring new and different 00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:35.930 perspectives to our audiences. And that said, 00:19:36.089 --> 00:19:38.670 you know, we do look at every solicitor, every 00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:41.329 submission that comes in and we consider it carefully. 00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:44.849 And if there is somebody out there doing something 00:19:44.849 --> 00:19:47.309 new and different, even if they are at a university, 00:19:47.450 --> 00:19:50.049 we would certainly bring them in. You know, even 00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:52.650 though we have several universities already part 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:57.220 of the network. And we do a lot. in terms of 00:19:57.220 --> 00:19:58.640 marketing, that's kind of one of the benefits 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:06.039 for our members is we help them to do cross -collaboration 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:10.160 and different PR efforts between them and their 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:12.059 own brands. But we also have the collective brand 00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:14.839 of the democracy group. And we often try and 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.839 take bits and pieces of their content and reuse 00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:20.960 it in democracy group branded content. So for 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:24.119 example, I put together articles every month. 00:20:24.410 --> 00:20:26.950 based on democracy topics that kind of pull quotes 00:20:26.950 --> 00:20:29.849 from the episodes and then links to those episodes. 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:33.589 That gets quite a bit of SEO traffic coming to 00:20:33.589 --> 00:20:37.269 our website, eyeballs on that, as well as, you 00:20:37.269 --> 00:20:40.609 know, when our shows are promoting something 00:20:40.609 --> 00:20:43.190 that's network wide, that's all going out to 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.829 their audience. So the brand kind of gets pushed 00:20:46.829 --> 00:20:48.670 a lot. And I think that's what's drawn people 00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:51.170 like, oh, this is a really cool group. click 00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:52.809 on it and they're like, holy cow, look at all 00:20:52.809 --> 00:20:55.470 these amazing people from these different realms 00:20:55.470 --> 00:20:57.569 that are, you know, helping to champion this 00:20:57.569 --> 00:21:03.089 mission. Got so many thoughts on that. One that's 00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.609 coming to mind is, is you've got 10, what is 00:21:06.609 --> 00:21:09.710 it? 10, 10 universities that are launching it, 00:21:09.769 --> 00:21:15.349 democracy. What'd you say? Democracy center. 00:21:15.349 --> 00:21:17.029 Center. Thank you. Institute. Yeah. Institute. 00:21:17.210 --> 00:21:20.160 Yeah. So. You don't want to get them all because 00:21:20.160 --> 00:21:23.920 then it's the same voice per se, but where do 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:25.839 you send those people? Like in my mind, I could 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.500 go like, okay, we could have all of them join. 00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:31.799 Cross -promos becomes really difficult, but it 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:33.779 creates that community, that collective where 00:21:33.779 --> 00:21:36.900 you've got now 20 or those 10 institutions all 00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:38.640 coming together and going like, we can be the 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:41.519 supporting group and now we just can't, we can't 00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.859 help you on the growth side of the cross -promo. 00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:46.259 We can help you on the podcasting side. How do 00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:49.089 you balance that? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know that 00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:53.869 we've had that exact situation yet. I think a 00:21:53.869 --> 00:21:56.930 lot of the folks that I talk to at other centers 00:21:56.930 --> 00:22:00.549 and organizations, once they learn how much work 00:22:00.549 --> 00:22:02.450 it is to do all of it, they don't actually end 00:22:02.450 --> 00:22:04.990 up starting their podcast or whatever it is we 00:22:04.990 --> 00:22:08.130 were talking about. So we haven't quite gotten 00:22:08.130 --> 00:22:14.470 there yet. But I think maybe down the line, we 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:18.329 kind of separate out the... internal like... 00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:20.789 professional networking aspect from the external 00:22:20.789 --> 00:22:24.630 audience focused stuff. And people, even if their 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:27.130 show is not part of the ones that are promoted

00:22:27.130 --> 00:22:29.750 in the network, maybe, you know, they could still 00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:32.549 come to our quarterly Zoom meeting just to hear 00:22:32.549 --> 00:22:35.130 what everybody else is doing. Or we have now 00:22:35.130 --> 00:22:38.289 an in -person convening once a year. Maybe we 00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:41.109 expand the audience for that to make it a little 00:22:41.109 --> 00:22:43.690 bit bigger. You know, like I said, these aren't 00:22:43.690 --> 00:22:46.549 things that we've actually been faced with yet, 00:22:46.549 --> 00:22:49.779 but You know, I think this is a very supportive 00:22:49.779 --> 00:22:51.859 community as you probably have already gathered. 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:54.880 So we would never kick anybody completely to 00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:57.019 the curb. I don't think we would, we would try 00:22:57.019 --> 00:23:01.470 to find a home for them somewhere. And it might 00:23:01.470 --> 00:23:05.069 be a good opportunity for them to, to speak with 00:23:05.069 --> 00:23:09.569 their university. I've noticed a few other universities 00:23:09.569 --> 00:23:11.829 have like podcast networks within that's just 00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:14.349 part of their university. I believe the university 00:23:14.349 --> 00:23:17.140 of Texas has one that's like all. shows across 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:20.680 their different, um, colleges. So it may be an 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:22.539 opportunity for them to go like, Hey, we're doing 00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:24.920 well here. There's other models out there. Maybe 00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.140 this is something we can do in our own institution. 00:23:27.750 --> 00:23:33.150 And that goes to, so if I'm joining the network, 00:23:34.329 --> 00:23:38.670 do I have to like, am I joining a, uh, we are 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.089 all on the same podcast hosting platform. Are 00:23:41.089 --> 00:23:44.250 we like, how do you create the structure and 00:23:44.250 --> 00:23:47.789 the operation behind. a show that's joining versus, 00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:50.930 back to your example, Brandon, about a show that's 00:23:50.930 --> 00:23:52.329 already in Texas. It's like, all right, well, 00:23:52.329 --> 00:23:53.789 we're going to have to leave the Texas network, 00:23:54.109 --> 00:23:55.890 even though we want to double dip and be part 00:23:55.890 --> 00:23:59.210 of them and be part of yours based on that. Go 00:23:59.210 --> 00:24:03.279 ahead, Brandon. So all of our shows, they keep 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:06.579 editorial control. They get to stay on their 00:24:06.579 --> 00:24:10.009 own platforms. Our agreement when they come on 00:24:10.009 --> 00:24:13.089 the network is a simple MOU that basically says, 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:14.750 hey, you're a part of our network. You're going 00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:18.190 to engage in these collaborative efforts. You're 00:24:18.190 --> 00:24:21.470 going to hold space for, you know, other shows 00:24:21.470 --> 00:24:24.750 to be promoted on your show occasionally. But 00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:26.990 they're not locked into just our network. So 00:24:26.990 --> 00:24:29.130 if they want to be part of, you know, the University 00:24:29.130 --> 00:24:31.289 of Texas network and our network, fantastic. 00:24:31.589 --> 00:24:36.609 We're happy to have you. It does create some 00:24:36.609 --> 00:24:39.289 difficulty on the backend though, when we are 00:24:39.289 --> 00:24:41.789 trying to do things like get download numbers 00:24:41.789 --> 00:24:44.930 for everybody. You know, we use the open source 00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:48.390 OP3 dev to basically be able to look at that, 00:24:48.650 --> 00:24:50.950 but I have to trust that their teams are going 00:24:50.950 --> 00:24:52.849 in, putting it in. If they don't, then I'm just 00:24:52.849 --> 00:24:55.630 not getting those numbers for that show. So it's 00:24:55.630 --> 00:24:57.589 a little bit of back and forth that I have to 00:24:57.589 --> 00:24:59.990 work with them to be like, Hey guys, let's jump 00:24:59.990 --> 00:25:01.950 on this, you know, depending on whatever we're 00:25:01.950 --> 00:25:04.900 doing. And I guess that goes to, how did you 00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:06.980 guys start this? Because if we're looking at 00:25:06.980 --> 00:25:11.940 it to the educational side, the institutional 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:14.619 side, but not the operational side, or as you 00:25:14.619 --> 00:25:18.680 just described, the headache of that operation, 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:20.859 like what made you guys start this and what was 00:25:20.859 --> 00:25:22.759 the basis for the network in the first place? 00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:27.859 Yeah, so I started the show that I host, or I 00:25:27.859 --> 00:25:30.200 should say my colleagues and I at the McCourtney 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:32.319 Institute for Democracy at Penn State started 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:37.839 Democracy Works in 2019, I believe. And we had 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.859 started doing some individual cross promos, one 00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:45.859 -offs with other shows, kind of similar. And 00:25:45.859 --> 00:25:48.940 I was sitting at Podcast Movement that year. 00:25:49.980 --> 00:25:53.579 And I heard Amanda McLaughlin from Multitude 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:56.779 at a session talking about what they built and 00:25:56.779 --> 00:25:59.640 sort of introducing this collaborative model. 00:25:59.779 --> 00:26:03.140 And I was like, oh, we should do that for democracy 00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:06.900 shows, of course. And so came back with the idea, 00:26:07.059 --> 00:26:09.700 went to my co -host, who also happened to be 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:13.779 my bosses at the Institute, got buy -in, worked 00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.200 with a colleague to help find the initial group 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.430 of shows. Uh, and then we happened to launch 00:26:20.430 --> 00:26:23.390 like the week that everything shut down for COVID. 00:26:23.750 --> 00:26:27.049

So we were like, we were going to have events 00:26:27.049 --> 00:26:29.630 and like all this stuff. We had these grand plans 00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:32.410 and then, you know, spent a year and a half on 00:26:32.410 --> 00:26:36.109 zoom, uh, like everybody else did. Um, Brandon 00:26:36.109 --> 00:26:39.839 had come on board by that point, but. Yeah, the 00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.599 idea really just came from, one, how to put some 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:45.180 structure and some process around all the cross 00:26:45.180 --> 00:26:50.200 -promotional stuff. And two, how can we expose 00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:53.259 audiences to different ideas, different perspectives? 00:26:53.630 --> 00:26:55.930 Kind of what a democracy is, right? People with 00:26:55.930 --> 00:26:58.630 different ideas coming together to not always 00:26:58.630 --> 00:27:00.829 agree on things, but to hash it out and have 00:27:00.829 --> 00:27:03.690 civil conversations. I know that that is not 00:27:03.690 --> 00:27:06.869 always how our political system functions, nor 00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:09.349 our media ecosystem for that matter. But, you 00:27:09.349 --> 00:27:12.289 know, wouldn't it be great if people doing that 00:27:12.289 --> 00:27:15.470 work could all join forces to get some help from 00:27:15.470 --> 00:27:18.930 each other along the way? Shout out to Amanda. 00:27:18.950 --> 00:27:22.970 We had her on episode. What was it, 20? I'm looking 00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:29.309 here, 26. Published September 3rd, so good one. 00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:32.210 But I guess to that point, you heard her. You 00:27:32.210 --> 00:27:36.049 built this slightly different model. So what 00:27:36.049 --> 00:27:38.210 is it that you've taken from her and what is 00:27:38.210 --> 00:27:40.430 it that you've made your own? And also, what 00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:43.069 is it that you've taken from other networks and 00:27:43.069 --> 00:27:44.730 collectives that you've kind of been watching 00:27:44.730 --> 00:27:46.849 and paying attention to and, you know, other 00:27:46.849 --> 00:27:49.430 guests that have been on the show to create your 00:27:49.430 --> 00:27:53.710 own? Version of of your collective network. Yeah. 00:27:54.069 --> 00:27:59.299 Yeah, so one one other I don't know what how 00:27:59.299 --> 00:28:01.500 they describe themselves, if they're a collective 00:28:01.500 --> 00:28:04.539 or a collaborative network. But one other one 00:28:04.539 --> 00:28:08.000 that I have worked with a lot is the Hub & Spoke 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.940 Network out of sort of a lot of their shows are 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:15.559 in the Boston area, but they're also very educationally 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.119 focused. Some of their shows are more like public 00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:25.799 radio -y. But if you have not had Wade whose 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:28.660 last name I'm blanking on at the moment. I can 00:28:28.660 --> 00:28:30.400 send you all his info, but if you haven't had 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:31.380 him on. Yeah, we're gonna have to get Wade on 00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:36.220 now. He really built this network and is really 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:38.680 he was trying to do something, you know, trying 00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:41.019 to get grant funding and that kind of stuff. 00:28:41.019 --> 00:28:42.640 So I don't want to get too far down the weeds 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:46.519 there, but you know, so I'm taking all these 00:28:46.519 --> 00:28:48.980 models of these disparate shows coming together 00:28:48.980 --> 00:28:55.029 and I love how how multitude really Let's you 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:58.210 know embraces the the differences and the diversity 00:28:58.210 --> 00:29:01.309 that their shows brings and Encourages their 00:29:01.309 --> 00:29:04.190 hosts to lean into what they're into whatever 00:29:04.190 --> 00:29:08.670 that is and sort of Trust that their audiences 00:29:08.670 --> 00:29:11.069 are gonna come along for the ride if they bring 00:29:11.069 --> 00:29:14.069 on a show that is you know Still kind of in the 00:29:14.069 --> 00:29:16.269 same vein of what they're doing, but maybe a 00:29:16.269 --> 00:29:18.750 completely different topic than they've covered 00:29:18.750 --> 00:29:25.569 before I really like how they do that So yeah, 00:29:25.609 --> 00:29:28.829 those are really the two big ones that I follow. 00:29:28.970 --> 00:29:30.109 I don't know if there are any others that come 00:29:30.109 --> 00:29:33.269 to mind for you, Brandon. Yeah. So I come a little 00:29:33.269 --> 00:29:38.170 bit from a startup background. And so, you know, 00:29:38.349 --> 00:29:40.970 the kind of systems that I like to try and build 00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:44.710 for our network focus a lot on growth. And so 00:29:44.710 --> 00:29:46.970 I'll look at, you know, other networks, but also 00:29:46.970 --> 00:29:50.529 look at things like convert kits or just kit 00:29:50.529 --> 00:29:53.109 now, they have like their creator network with 00:29:53.109 --> 00:29:57.400 the different newsletters and stuff. And so how 00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.839 is that functioning and can we adapt something 00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:05.180 similar to that? As well as in our internal systems, 00:30:05.180 --> 00:30:07.819 we have a lot of like stuff built on Airtable 00:30:07.819 --> 00:30:10.980 to help people collaborate and systems working 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:14.849 there. So I will try and pick and choose anything 00:30:14.849 --> 00:30:16.869 that's like, this might work for us and how can 00:30:16.869 --> 00:30:19.599 we adapt it, you know, for ourselves? And there's 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:22.700 another one that's coming to my top of mind, 00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:26.460 Jenna, so I'll flag it for you. But I think in 00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:29.660 a previous conversation, you mentioned Marc Lacour's, 00:30:29.819 --> 00:30:34.500 former guest of ours, and OGGN, and how you're 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:36.599 leveraging

something they're doing within their 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:43.450 network. Yeah, so that is there. I was on a podcast 00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:48.190 network alliance call and Mark was talking about 00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:53.009 how they had set up a mentoring type of thing 00:30:53.009 --> 00:30:57.710 for new folks in their industry to be paired 00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:01.630 with more seasoned podcasters to make their own 00:31:01.630 --> 00:31:04.210 shows. That might not be exactly right. It's 00:31:04.210 --> 00:31:06.910 been several years, but that was the basic idea. 00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:10.880 And I was like, oh, well. we could do that. I 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.819 mean, education is what we do. So why don't we 00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:18.880 help students make their own podcasts? And so 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:22.359 we started our Student Podcast Fellowship, which 00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.559 has been, you know, aside from promoting our 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.220 individual shows, one of the most successful 00:31:28.220 --> 00:31:31.619 things we've done as a network, our hosts love 00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:33.619 it. You know, they love mentoring the students, 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:37.720 especially those who don't work at universities, 00:31:37.819 --> 00:31:39.480 are not interacting with students. students day 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:42.859 to day. The students really enjoy getting to 00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:47.559 meet a lot of professionals and the interviewing 00:31:47.559 --> 00:31:50.119 experience, the editing experience, all the things. 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.339 And I'll let Brandon take it from here. He really, 00:31:53.339 --> 00:31:57.000 again, using his background in startups and education, 00:31:57.220 --> 00:32:00.640 put together a fantastic curriculum and has really 00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:03.440 molded the fellowship into what it is today. 00:32:03.869 --> 00:32:07.029 Yeah, we're on our seventh fellowship now and 00:32:07.029 --> 00:32:09.809 each time like iterating to help it get better. 00:32:09.809 --> 00:32:12.089 And each time I feel like the applicant pool 00:32:12.089 --> 00:32:15.549 is stronger and stronger for it. Usually we'll 00:32:15.549 --> 00:32:19.069 have about somewhere between like six and eight 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:21.950 fellows. And most of them will create their own 00:32:21.950 --> 00:32:24.029 podcasts, but sometimes we have teams that will 00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:26.869 work together to create a podcast. And it's so 00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:29.849 cool every time to have them come in. Our first 00:32:29.849 --> 00:32:33.849 session, we usually have our creators from our 00:32:33.690 --> 00:32:35.890 Network come in and talk about the major issues 00:32:35.890 --> 00:32:38.109 in democracy to kind of help them start spurring 00:32:38.109 --> 00:32:40.650 ideas And then they develop their ideas over 00:32:40.650 --> 00:32:43.670 a few weeks. They practice doing interviews. 00:32:43.670

--> 00:32:46.589 They practice with the software They are able 00:32:46.589 --> 00:32:50.170 to engage with the hosts as mentors to kind of 00:32:50.170 --> 00:32:52.609 craft their ideas and like okay Here's how I 00:32:52.609 --> 00:32:55.049 might want to lay out my episode or my season 00:32:55.049 --> 00:32:58.470 and really get a hands -on perspective from you 00:32:58.470 --> 00:33:00.569 know Somebody that's been doing it in the niche 00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:03.130 that they want to do. And then by the end, we're 00:33:03.130 --> 00:33:05.769 helping them learn some marketing things, but 00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:08.589 then helping with their first beginnings of promotion 00:33:08.589 --> 00:33:11.589 to basically set them up on their feet and hope 00:33:11.589 --> 00:33:14.089 that they continue on. And some of them haven't, 00:33:14.089 --> 00:33:15.730 I mean, they're students, they got lots going 00:33:15.730 --> 00:33:17.970 on and they get into it and they're like, this 00:33:17.970 --> 00:33:20.150 is way more work than I thought I wanted to do. 00:33:20.230 --> 00:33:22.990 It was fun, but no, thank you. And others have 00:33:22.990 --> 00:33:26.109 continued on their podcasts or... joined institutions 00:33:26.109 --> 00:33:27.970 that have podcasts and have taken that over. 00:33:27.990 --> 00:33:31.170 So it's been really cool to see how we've helped 00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:33.869 to influence this younger generation and these 00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:36.930 younger voices to start talking about these issues. 00:33:37.470 --> 00:33:41.799 That's amazing. Do you work with, I guess, since 00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:44.980 once again, Jenna, we met at the Higher Ed Podcast 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:49.000 Conference where you've got the heads of, I guess, 00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:52.980 comm schools that are building their own podcasts. 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:56.960 And I have to imagine who you're working with 00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.640 or not those schools. So do you go and go like, 00:33:59.859 --> 00:34:02.660 all right, let's go back to the 10 institutions 00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:06.480 that are doing the democracy centers, going like, 00:34:06.579 --> 00:34:09.320 all right, do any of these institutions have 00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:11.679 podcasting with their comms? So let's work with 00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:13.320 their comms. Or you're like, nope, we'll just 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:15.579 take it all in -house and help them from there. 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.440 Yeah, so Brandon has done a ton of outreach work 00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:24.239 to and and jump in if I get any of this wrong 00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:27.760 Brandon to political science departments journalism 00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:31.579 schools Other types of departments like that 00:34:31.579 --> 00:34:36.820 really casting a wide And sometimes we get students 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:40.340 who are more focused on the politics side. Sometimes 00:34:40.340 --> 00:34:43.699 we get some who are more on the media side, but 00:34:43.699 --> 00:34:46.199 I think that creates a really nice mix and a 00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:49.980 nice balance among the students. Yeah, it's kind 00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:52.780 of mirroring the philosophy that we have for 00:34:52.780 --> 00:34:54.500 taking podcasts on where like they're talking 00:34:54.500 --> 00:34:56.760 about different subjects. The podcasts that the 00:34:56.760 --> 00:34:59.860 students end up creating are also in, you know, 00:35:00.139 --> 00:35:02.360 wide adjacent. A lot of times we've had ones 00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:04.159 that focus on technology. We've had ones that 00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:07.619 are like politics and pop culture together. Which 00:35:07.780 --> 00:35:10.940 is again, something that we're trying to, okay, 00:35:10.940 --> 00:35:13.099 how do we get people to swallow this broccoli? 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:15.840 We got to wrap it in chocolate. And so our students 00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.900 are usually better at doing this because they're 00:35:17.900 --> 00:35:21.320 engaged in the media landscape a lot more than 00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:24.280 say Jenna and I are. We are kind of swamped in 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:27.320 the democracy reform and all of this other stuff, 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.940 because that's the institutions that we reside 00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:33.480 in. So it's really cool to see what our students 00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.000 create, the types of podcasts, and then how they 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:38.119 go about marketing at the channels that they 00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:41.019 start putting it on. So you guys are doing, I 00:35:41.019 --> 00:35:43.639 mean, if we let anyone listen to the half hour 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:46.059 we've been talking, it's, you guys are doing 00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:48.659 a lot of work. I know this isn't the full -time 00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:50.659 job of what you guys are describing that you 00:35:50.659 --> 00:35:54.159 guys do for your actual day -to -day jobs. This 00:35:54.159 --> 00:35:57.960 is a portion of it. So how did you push this 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.730 through? Penn State and going like, hey, we should 00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:05.010 be giving you resources to build out this whole 00:36:05.010 --> 00:36:10.030 concept that touches all these other institutions 00:36:10.030 --> 00:36:12.590 and all these other people. Is it just like, 00:36:12.610 --> 00:36:15.090 by us doing that, that helps get the democracy 00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:17.050 measured? And that's where you were able to sell 00:36:17.050 --> 00:36:21.309 it in? Yeah, that's certainly part of it. A slightly 00:36:21.309 --> 00:36:24.849 more cynical take on that is that, you know, 00:36:25.050 --> 00:36:29.909 funders and leadership love something that's 00:36:29.909 --> 00:36:33.389 new and that's unique. And so for the McCourtney 00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:37.150 Institute at Penn State, this was a unique value

00:36:37.150 --> 00:36:41.210 add for us. And it shows that we're being collaborative 00:36:41.210 --> 00:36:45.590 with our peers. It really allowed us to be a 00:36:45.590 --> 00:36:50.829 leader in this space. Democracy Works had the 00:36:50.829 --> 00:36:54.030 luxury of being one of the first podcasts that 00:36:54.030 --> 00:36:56.230 covered the kinds of things we were talking about. 00:36:56.269 --> 00:36:59.110 So we were able to build an audience early on 00:36:59.110 --> 00:37:02.710 just by virtue of being among the first in the 00:37:02.710 --> 00:37:06.349 space. So we already had some credibility coming 00:37:06.349 --> 00:37:12.329 in. Yeah, being able, I think the combination 00:37:12.329 --> 00:37:16.789 of the collaborative effort and the uniqueness 00:37:16.789 --> 00:37:20.550 of it are two things that are catnip to people 00:37:20.550 --> 00:37:24.329 who write checks and make decisions about budgets. 00:37:25.210 --> 00:37:28.730 Yeah. And I think as a network that, you know, 00:37:28.849 --> 00:37:31.829 when the network is helping podcasters to do 00:37:31.829 --> 00:37:35.030 advertising, the win -win situation is very obvious. 00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:38.320 when we're building this network that's collaborative, 00:37:38.420 --> 00:37:40.500 you have to look at, okay, what's the institutional 00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:43.780 goals? And how is this now a value add to that? 00:37:43.780 --> 00:37:46.440 And how can we frame this as a value add to that? 00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:49.500 Even, you know, when I want to do smaller initiatives 00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:51.599 or like, hey, I want to market in this way, Jenna, 00:37:51.900 --> 00:37:54.260 I'm trying to say, okay, how is this a win -win 00:37:54.260 --> 00:37:56.940 for the institution, for our podcasters, for 00:37:56.940 --> 00:37:59.559 our listeners? So if anyone that's listening 00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:01.719 that's running a network, since your network 00:38:01.719 --> 00:38:05.510 is very unique, as we just discussed, like, What 00:38:05.510 --> 00:38:07.989 advice would you say, regardless of the network 00:38:07.989 --> 00:38:10.570 they're running, that you've learned that they 00:38:10.570 --> 00:38:12.989 could take on and go like, oh, those were good 00:38:12.989 --> 00:38:16.090 learnings, and then flip side, what are the things 00:38:16.090 --> 00:38:20.269 you shouldn't be doing, but it's universal beyond 00:38:20.269 --> 00:38:23.889 just what is unique to the democracy group? So 00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:27.610 I would say definitely thinking about, I don't 00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:30.650 think everybody could do a fellowship like what 00:38:30.650 --> 00:38:34.349 we have, but finding ways to help up and coming 00:38:34.349 --> 00:38:36.590 podcasters and creators. And it doesn't have 00:38:36.590 --> 00:38:38.949 to be students. It could be professionals more 00:38:38.949 --> 00:38:41.610 like the oil and gas network, or it could be 00:38:41.610 --> 00:38:44.530 any other number of combinations depending on 00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:48.889 the field. But I think that Everybody likes to 00:38:48.889 --> 00:38:51.809 help other people on some level and people like 00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.869 to share what they've learned. And that's also 00:38:55.869 --> 00:38:57.869 the kind of thing that a lot, like I just said, 00:38:57.969 --> 00:39:00.829 a lot of funders are interested in. So if you 00:39:00.829 --> 00:39:04.389 are interested in pursuing grant funding or maybe 00:39:04.389 --> 00:39:08.510 a sponsor would be interested in supporting that 00:39:08.510 --> 00:39:12.250 kind of work, anything that's educational in 00:39:12.250 --> 00:39:16.570 nature is often appealing there. Um, and then 00:39:16.570 --> 00:39:20.030 I think as far as like what not to do, we kind 00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:23.289 of learned the hard way about having too many 00:39:23.289 --> 00:39:26.610 shows that were similar to each other. Um, in 00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:29.510 the beginning, you know, we were not as mindful 00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:32.389 about that and we started to see the same guests 00:39:32.389 --> 00:39:35.710 coming on and the same topics and we were like, 00:39:35.909 --> 00:39:38.670 okay, we need to. pump the brakes on this a little 00:39:38.670 --> 00:39:41.510 bit and really think strategically about who 00:39:41.510 --> 00:39:44.329 we're bringing on and how we're going to grow. 00:39:45.349 --> 00:39:47.530 So I'm sure everybody listening to this is already 00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:50.530 doing some version of that. But I think it can 00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:53.389 be tempting, especially if you have a lot of 00:39:53.389 --> 00:39:56.190 people coming to you saying, hey, I want to join. 00:39:56.550 --> 00:39:58.809 Like, that's flattering on some level, right? 00:39:58.829 --> 00:40:02.429 It's always nice to hear those things. And, you 00:40:02.429 --> 00:40:06.110 know, it can be easy to get caught up in that. 00:40:06.949 --> 00:40:10.289 So just keeping that broader vision in mind of 00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:12.230 who you're already reaching, who you want to 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:15.590 reach, and can these new potential network members 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:19.000 help you get there? Yeah, and I'll add two things. 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.099 So the first is something that's really successful 00:40:22.099 --> 00:40:25.420 is what the network was first built on, which 00:40:25.420 --> 00:40:28.579 is cross promotion, that cross collaboration. 00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:33.139 But more specifically, I say this all the time 00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:35.579 to anybody I'm talking about on podcasting is 00:40:35.579 --> 00:40:38.360 think about where your listeners are and engage 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.179 them where they are. And for the majority, that's 00:40:41.179 --> 00:40:44.480 going to be on podcasts. So the best way to market 00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:47.500 and grow is marketing to them when

they're listening 00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:49.260 to a podcast. You can do that paid advertising, 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:51.280 you could do that cross collaboration, whatever 00:40:51.280 --> 00:40:54.659 it is, that tends to work the best for us. When 00:40:54.659 --> 00:40:56.739 you start going into the other marketing channels, 00:40:56.980 --> 00:40:59.900 social media, whatever, it's very hard to convert 00:40:59.900 --> 00:41:02.610 them over. And we've tried to do... dozens of 00:41:02.610 --> 00:41:04.389 different things and see how they convert over, 00:41:04.650 --> 00:41:08.530 it just doesn't happen as well. But the second 00:41:08.530 --> 00:41:11.429 thing, and this kind of leads into it, is expanding 00:41:11.429 --> 00:41:14.349 your idea, especially these days of what a podcaster 00:41:14.349 --> 00:41:16.469 is. And this is why we're kind of shifting to 00:41:16.469 --> 00:41:20.550 a creator network and keeping that philosophy 00:41:20.550 --> 00:41:23.090 of engaging people where they are. So if people 00:41:23.090 --> 00:41:26.130 want to be watching a video, how can we take 00:41:26.130 --> 00:41:29.510 our podcast content and make it digestible in 00:41:29.510 --> 00:41:31.949 video form? Or if people want to be reading, 00:41:32.250 --> 00:41:34.429 how do we make it digestible in that form can 00:41:34.429 --> 00:41:37.650 engage the audience there. And maybe after, you 00:41:37.650 --> 00:41:39.610 know, 50 times they've seen this podcast come 00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:41.110 up in their newsletter and so on and so forth, 00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:43.190 they're like, okay, maybe I do want to go listen 00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:46.570 to it. And you expand, you know, downloads there. 00:41:46.730 --> 00:41:49.329 But for us, our main, one of our main goals is 00:41:49.329 --> 00:41:51.389 that education, that awareness of democracy and 00:41:51.389 --> 00:41:53.730 this stuff. So whatever form that happens to 00:41:53.730 --> 00:41:56.889 be in is okay with us. Now, those are great points, 00:41:56.889 --> 00:42:01.420 which brings to mind. Two questions. One, when 00:42:01.420 --> 00:42:04.320 we go back to your show, Jenna, that you started 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:07.239 this network from, and then you guys said how 00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:09.280 you added all these shows that are very similar. 00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:13.039 Did you guys ever decide or think, and maybe 00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:15.340 it's something you'll do later, you did earlier, 00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:18.239 like a universal feed? It's like, okay, let's 00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:21.980 bring everyone into the democracy group. feed, 00:42:21.980 --> 00:42:24.099 and you just have everyone's show in there with 00:42:24.099 --> 00:42:26.539 the ultimate goal of stifing them off to their 00:42:26.539 --> 00:42:28.579 own individual, which a couple of the networks 00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:30.340 that have been on our show have talked about. 00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.619 Have you guys done that, found that successful 00:42:32.619 --> 00:42:37.130 or not even tested it? Yeah, we have one. Brandon 00:42:37.130 --> 00:42:40.769 really runs it day to day. So I'll let him talk 00:42:40.769 --> 00:42:44.090 about how he curates it and how it's set up and 00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:47.440 all of that. Yeah, so this was actually an idea 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:51.050 that we got, again, from the podcast. podcast 00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:52.989 network Alliance. I think they had started to 00:42:52.989 --> 00:42:54.849 do one of the, I can't remember which network, 00:42:54.869 --> 00:42:56.750 but they had started to do a single feed like 00:42:56.750 --> 00:42:58.389 that where it just feeds in all the podcasts 00:42:58.389 --> 00:43:01.690 from their network. And so I started one for 00:43:01.690 --> 00:43:04.090 the democracy group. Ours is a little more curated. 00:43:04.289 --> 00:43:07.090 It's only two to three episodes from across the 00:43:07.090 --> 00:43:09.170 network for the week rather than all of them 00:43:09.170 --> 00:43:13.130 feeding in. And the reason for that is all of 00:43:13.130 --> 00:43:15.250 our podcasts have different publishing schedules. 00:43:15.949 --> 00:43:19.309 So if we didn't do that, you might have one that's 00:43:19.309 --> 00:43:21.989 feeding in a couple. you know, every week and 00:43:21.989 --> 00:43:24.110 one that doesn't show up for, you know, a month. 00:43:24.349 --> 00:43:26.650 Some of them have seasons. You don't, this way 00:43:26.650 --> 00:43:30.869 you kind of get a fairness across the podcast, 00:43:30.869 --> 00:43:36.190 if you will. Similarly, I don't have a tool that 00:43:36.190 --> 00:43:38.349 automatically does it. I'm the one dropping in 00:43:38.349 --> 00:43:41.789 the episodes. So workload, just being able to 00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:45.670 do a few helps out a lot. But we try and take 00:43:45.670 --> 00:43:48.469 that same concept to our other channels as well. 00:43:48.869 --> 00:43:55.059 So our. network newsletter has a similar concept, 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.380 as well as like the articles I write, they kind 00:43:57.380 --> 00:44:00.300 of feed in excerpts from this. So any way we 00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:03.000 can feature all of the shows in like that, we 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.320 try and do. And then the other question, which 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.199 builds off of that, Brandon, is you've mentioned 00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:11.980 just now, but also earlier in our conversation 00:44:11.980 --> 00:44:14.659 about the website. So what would you guys say 00:44:14.659 --> 00:44:17.340 to networks if we think about it? I think I actually 00:44:17.340 --> 00:44:20.570 just wrote a post about this recently. You know, 00:44:20.670 --> 00:44:23.449 some networks, it's just logos on a page, and 00:44:23.449 --> 00:44:27.250 some it's actually the content and it's the housing, 00:44:27.250 --> 00:44:29.889 the information. Now, for you guys, like, you

00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:32.190 don't own the feeds for those shows. Each of 00:44:32.190 --> 00:44:34.090 those shows is part of their own institution 00:44:34.090 --> 00:44:38.070 or privately. How have you gone about building 00:44:38.070 --> 00:44:41.289 a website function and also getting the funding 00:44:41.289 --> 00:44:43.630 or the backing behind that? Was that all sold 00:44:43.630 --> 00:44:47.829 into PSU to get that? Especially since it's all 00:44:47.829 --> 00:44:51.690 on your shoulders, it seems like, Brandon. So 00:44:51.690 --> 00:44:53.949 one idea is, again, look at the marketing channel 00:44:53.949 --> 00:44:56.570 and like, what is the objective of the person 00:44:56.570 --> 00:44:59.309 visiting that thing? On the internet, people 00:44:59.309 --> 00:45:02.769 are looking for information mostly. So a lot 00:45:02.769 --> 00:45:05.690 of our pages on our website are very informational 00:45:05.690 --> 00:45:07.710 about democracy topics. And it just so happens 00:45:07.710 --> 00:45:10.769 that that information comes from our dozens of 00:45:10.769 --> 00:45:12.250 experts and stuff that are interviewed on these 00:45:12.250 --> 00:45:14.750 podcasts. That means when they come, they're 00:45:14.750 --> 00:45:16.469 going to probably consume it, but some are going 00:45:16.469 --> 00:45:19.519 to be interested in diving in more. Or the other 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:21.199 thing they're coming to do is to learn about 00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.460 the democracy group, in which case having all 00:45:23.460 --> 00:45:26.239 our shows, having the different places you can 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.880 find those shows, having information about our 00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:31.519 creators and who they are, because we have people 00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.539 come and like, I need a speaker for our event. 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.519 I'd love to have one of your podcasters. And 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:39.920 we have shows coming like I want to collaborate 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:41.840 in some way. They may not be democracy focused, 00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:43.960 but you know, they want to do cross promos. So 00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.019 think about your different audience members. 00:45:46.269 --> 00:45:48.929 Uh, coming in and Jenna, I'll let you speak to 00:45:48.929 --> 00:45:52.030 the kind of the funding and stuff. Yeah. I mean, 00:45:52.190 --> 00:45:54.489 so it's really just part of the funding that 00:45:54.489 --> 00:45:57.469 we get from the McCourtney Institute. It really 00:45:57.469 --> 00:45:59.909 is of all the things I had to sell. It was probably 00:45:59.909 --> 00:46:03.530 the least, uh, the least, uh, intensive, uh, 00:46:03.530 --> 00:46:06.699 but just because it is, um, you know, everybody 00:46:06.699 --> 00:46:09.760 wants their stuff out there. This helps get visibility 00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:13.579 for the Institute and all of that. And thanks 00:46:13.579 --> 00:46:16.000 to a lot of the work that Brandon's done and 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.860 the expertise in that area, I know that he tells 00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:22.800 me all the time we have high domain authority. 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:25.599 I'll let him explain what that is and how he 00:46:25.599 --> 00:46:28.440 built it. But the fact that we link out to a 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.199 lot of our shows, part of the MOU, we require 00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:34.219 them to link back to us. So... Not only does 00:46:34.219 --> 00:46:36.179 it help the individual shows grow, but it helps 00:46:36.179 --> 00:46:40.800 boost the authority that the network has on the 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:43.920 internet and hopefully elsewhere too. Yeah. So 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.719 like the quick dirty version of it is when a 00:46:47.719 --> 00:46:50.079 show joins us, they sign the MOU that they'll 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:53.440 be linking our show in their show notes and on 00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.400 their websites. And luckily show notes get populated 00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.539 everywhere because of all the different podcasting 00:46:59.539 --> 00:47:04.420 platforms. Having links back to our website boosts 00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:06.940 the domain authority so that when somebody searches 00:47:06.940 --> 00:47:09.519 How do I do voting in Michigan or something and 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:11.639 we might have an article for it ours is more 00:47:11.639 --> 00:47:15.500 likely to be shown at the top And because we 00:47:15.500 --> 00:47:18.460 have 20 different, you know podcasts in our network 00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:21.099 currently that means our links are everywhere 00:47:21.099 --> 00:47:23.519 So it's really really easy for us to get put 00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:26.280 at the top for this type of information So we've 00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:28.280 had a couple guests and I think it's a common 00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.039 theme that I'm starting to hear but not really 00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:33.300 universal based on a lot of the guests we've 00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:36.320 had of like the power of a website for a network, 00:47:36.420 --> 00:47:39.000 the power. But I mean, it requires quite a bit 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:42.179 of effort at the same time as you're demonstrated 00:47:42.179 --> 00:47:44.920 just by, you know, not only having a name of 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:47.559 the democracy groups, you know, props on domain 00:47:47.559 --> 00:47:50.840 authority there, but also being able to index 00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:52.820 so that if someone's doing a search, whether 00:47:52.820 --> 00:47:55.579 they find your website or they find You know, 00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:58.960 the individual podcaster or their substack, whatever 00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:02.300 the content may be, at least it gives more authority 00:48:02.300 --> 00:48:06.059 that as a collective helps, I guess, overall, 00:48:06.059 --> 00:48:12.059 right? Yeah. And we have the bonus, the way that 00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.920

ranking is starting to happen now is a lot more 00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:17.599 of looking at authority, like actual intellectual 00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:19.260 authority. And we happen to have a bunch of people 00:48:19.260 --> 00:48:21.539 from institutions and experts and all of this 00:48:21.539 --> 00:48:24.420 that have lots of titles behind their name, lots 00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.059 of you know, depth of work. So we're more likely 00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:30.079 to get pulled for things like AI overview in 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.619 Google and being pulled for the AI engines as 00:48:32.619 --> 00:48:35.820 well. There is a value there. Well, I guess as 00:48:35.820 --> 00:48:38.840 we're coming up on time here and our time together, 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:41.539 the last question I would kind of ask before 00:48:41.539 --> 00:48:44.380 we go into the standard ones is, where do you 00:48:44.380 --> 00:48:46.679 see things as you guys are moving into from a 00:48:46.679 --> 00:48:49.199 collective and network to a creator community? 00:48:49.619 --> 00:48:51.880 But where do you see things for the next year 00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:55.739 to three years? the landscape shifting. Yeah, 00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:58.119 I mean, I think like we've said a couple of times, 00:48:58.199 --> 00:49:02.420 focusing on bringing in people that are doing 00:49:02.420 --> 00:49:04.679 the same kind of work, but maybe don't have a 00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:08.159 podcast at all, or the podcast is not their primary 00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:11.099 focus. You know, people who are on TikTok or 00:49:11.099 --> 00:49:14.840 Instagram or Substack or the many other platforms 00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:17.179 out there and thinking about, you know, what 00:49:17.179 --> 00:49:21.309 is cross promo? look like there? If somebody 00:49:21.309 --> 00:49:24.889 does primarily have a podcast, how do you make 00:49:24.889 --> 00:49:28.650 that equitable so it's worth it for both people 00:49:28.650 --> 00:49:33.230 to collaborate that way? How does it change the 00:49:33.230 --> 00:49:37.690 conversations that we as a network have? If people 00:49:37.690 --> 00:49:40.389 want to get on and just talk about podcast downloads 00:49:40.389 --> 00:49:42.590 and hosting platforms and whatever, if somebody 00:49:42.590 --> 00:49:46.289 is only on Instagram or YouTube, they're going 00:49:46.289 --> 00:49:48.690 to have a completely different conversation. 00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:51.929 So just thinking about both internally and externally, 00:49:52.170 --> 00:49:54.949 you know, how we onboard those folks in the smoothest 00:49:54.949 --> 00:49:58.510 way possible and making sure that we're bringing 00:49:58.510 --> 00:50:02.349 our audience along. as well. I think those are 00:50:02.349 --> 00:50:04.710 going to be the biggest things. And then, of 00:50:04.710 --> 00:50:08.309 course, we'll have another presidential election 00:50:08.309 --> 00:50:10.690 coming up. We'll certainly have the

midterms 00:50:10.690 --> 00:50:13.909 here in just about six weeks or so as we're recording 00:50:13.909 --> 00:50:18.349 this. But the next presidential election, that's 00:50:18.349 --> 00:50:21.090 always when interest in the things that we cover 00:50:21.090 --> 00:50:24.449 tends to be the highest. So how can we capitalize 00:50:24.449 --> 00:50:30.159 on that? both on all the different podcast platforms, 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:34.719 but elsewhere. What can we do when there's that 00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:36.639 little window of time when people might want 00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:38.619 to eat a little more of that broccoli than they 00:50:38.619 --> 00:50:41.400 do the other three and a half years that there's 00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:43.820 not a presidential election cycle happening? 00:50:44.059 --> 00:50:46.940 So being mindful of that as well. Well, I guess 00:50:46.940 --> 00:50:49.639 that goes into a great question that I usually 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:53.809 wrap up with. We know podcasting there's so many 00:50:53.809 --> 00:50:55.849 out there as you're talking about finding the 00:50:55.849 --> 00:50:59.050 right piece of content as we're coming into Midterms 00:50:59.050 --> 00:51:01.769 like what's one show besides your own because 00:51:01.769 --> 00:51:03.630 we've already talked about it That you would 00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.429 recommend that more people should be listening 00:51:05.429 --> 00:51:09.030 to a question for both of you Give more listeners 00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:12.889 more things to listen to yeah, so one that that 00:51:12.889 --> 00:51:16.480 I really like that is not part of our network, 00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:18.079 though they've collaborated with some of the 00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:21.079 shows on our network. It's called This Day. It 00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:23.440 used to be called This Day in esoteric political 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:26.139 history, but for reasons you can imagine, they 00:51:26.139 --> 00:51:30.179 dropped the last part of that title. It's a couple 00:51:30.179 --> 00:51:33.619 of historians, like academic historians, that 00:51:33.619 --> 00:51:36.440 look at different events throughout our political 00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.519 history, but it's done in very much like a chat 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.659 show format, like a couple of people sitting 00:51:41.659 --> 00:51:44.619 around talking over drinks or coffee or what 00:51:44.619 --> 00:51:46.659 have you, they have a really good rapport, but 00:51:46.659 --> 00:51:51.440 they also know their stuff. So, you know, I often 00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:54.440 listen to, you know, what they're saying about... 00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.380 different things in history and most of our shows 00:51:56.380 --> 00:51:59.480 focus in our network focus on more like what's 00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:02.559 happening right now and less so on on the history. 00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:05.760 So it's interesting to get that historical perspective. 00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.000 And I just want to also circle back to I mentioned 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:11.800 the hub and spoke collective earlier. It's Wade 00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:14.460 Roush is who I was thinking of. So sorry, Wade, 00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:17.320 I forgot your last name. If you happen to listen 00:52:17.320 --> 00:52:20.400 to this, but definitely the shows in hub and 00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:23.179 spoke are fantastic as well if you like thoughtful 00:52:23.179 --> 00:52:28.070 content. Awesome. And I will promote one of our 00:52:28.070 --> 00:52:30.849 podcasts, which is Future Hindsight. And their 00:52:30.849 --> 00:52:33.030 kind of like core mission is how to be a more 00:52:33.030 --> 00:52:36.730 engaged citizen. And they often take these big 00:52:36.730 --> 00:52:39.730 ideas and like make it bite size for you. Like 00:52:39.730 --> 00:52:41.949 how can I actually engage in some of these topics? 00:52:42.030 --> 00:52:46.769 How can I do anything? And they cover a lot of 00:52:46.769 --> 00:52:49.550 different areas that people probably care about 00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:53.159 a lot. Mila Atmos, the host is... Wonderful, 00:52:53.159 --> 00:52:56.559 very thoughtful, asks very great questions, and 00:52:56.559 --> 00:52:59.480 usually has very insightful guests as well. So 00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:01.800 I would check out Future Hindsight. Amazing. 00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.579 We'll have those on the show notes. And then 00:53:03.579 --> 00:53:05.900 the last question is, well, we talk about podcast 00:53:05.900 --> 00:53:08.739 discovery being difficult, but no one complains 00:53:08.739 --> 00:53:13.380 that there's too many books. Right? So what's 00:53:13.380 --> 00:53:16.059 one book, whatever you want that book to be, 00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.960 that you would recommend listeners check out? 00:53:21.159 --> 00:53:23.579 So that's interesting you phrase it that way 00:53:23.579 --> 00:53:26.239 I'm in the process of wrapping up my first book 00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:28.760 So I've been thinking about that a lot in the 00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:32.219 relationship between podcasts and books and and 00:53:32.219 --> 00:53:39.340 discover ability One book So one that has really 00:53:39.340 --> 00:53:43.360 informed my thinking about the the space that 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:45.559 we're in it's called breaking the two -party 00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.969 doom loop by Lee Drutman, who's a scholar, and 00:53:49.969 --> 00:53:53.710 his show, Politics in Question, is part of our 00:53:53.710 --> 00:53:56.989 network. But as the name suggests, it talks about 00:53:56.989 --> 00:54:00.030 the problems of the two -party system in America 00:54:00.030 --> 00:54:03.789 and how that sort of spreads out to the rest 00:54:03.789 --> 00:54:06.349 of the aspects of our politics and the problems 00:54:06.349 --> 00:54:11.099 it creates and some potential... solutions to 00:54:11.099 --> 00:54:13.900 that. So if you've been

frustrated by gridlock 00:54:13.900 --> 00:54:16.980 in politics and want to understand how we got 00:54:16.980 --> 00:54:20.340 here and where we can go moving forward, that 00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:23.449 is a good one to check out. The one that I'll 00:54:23.449 --> 00:54:27.409 share will help both in this realm and any realm, 00:54:27.469 --> 00:54:29.869 which is nonviolent communication by Marshall 00:54:29.869 --> 00:54:32.429 Rosenberg. And the reason I bring that up is 00:54:32.429 --> 00:54:34.650 because a lot of times it's very difficult to 00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:37.050 be talking with somebody that you don't agree 00:54:37.050 --> 00:54:41.309 with. You don't agree with their ideas, which 00:54:41.309 --> 00:54:45.030 is the basis of democracy, right? We have to 00:54:45.030 --> 00:54:46.949 learn how to govern with people that we don't 00:54:46.949 --> 00:54:50.590 necessarily agree with. But what's nice about 00:54:50.590 --> 00:54:52.809 nonviolent communication is there's both talking 00:54:52.809 --> 00:54:54.929 about, you know, the objective logical side of 00:54:54.929 --> 00:54:57.050 things, but the feelings that underlie it as 00:54:57.050 --> 00:54:59.829 well, which in the research around democracy, 00:55:00.030 --> 00:55:03.420 we find people wrapping their ideas into their 00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:05.199 identity and then they get emotional about it. 00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:07.199 And that's really what causes the butting heads. 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.699 So if you're able to separate those, be able 00:55:09.699 --> 00:55:12.340 to talk to others about them, we no longer have 00:55:12.340 --> 00:55:15.000 to do the us versus them. We can see them as 00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:17.320 humans. Oh, they have the same feelings as I 00:55:17.320 --> 00:55:20.559 do, even though their ideas are different. Well, 00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:22.820 Brandon, Jenna, this has been great. There's 00:55:22.820 --> 00:55:25.969 a lot to unpack. for myself, but also anyone 00:55:25.969 --> 00:55:29.190 that's listening and new people to go reach out 00:55:29.190 --> 00:55:31.690 to and bring on the show. But I appreciate both 00:55:31.690 --> 00:55:34.269 of you guys taking the time and joining me here 00:55:34.269 --> 00:55:53.949 on Podcast Network Insights. Thank you. audience 00:55:53.949 --> 00:55:57.130 and platforms, and goals. The answer for the 00:55:57.130 --> 00:55:59.309 democracy group was a shared operating layer. 00:55:59.949 --> 00:56:02.449 Independent shows keep their feeds, platforms, 00:56:02.650 --> 00:56:05.349 and editorial control, while the network creates 00:56:05.349 --> 00:56:08.110 a structure for cross -promotion, shared content, 00:56:08.590 --> 00:56:11.809 meetings, and discovery. Unique ways to approach 00:56:11.809 --> 00:56:14.349 things. And here's a few other things that I 00:56:14.349 --> 00:56:17.500 took away from this conversation. First, describing 00:56:17.500 --> 00:56:19.719 the risk of having too many similar shows in 00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.690 one network. At first, adding another show can 00:56:22.690 --> 00:56:25.789 feel obvious growth. But when the same guests 00:56:25.789 --> 00:56:28.690 and topics keep appearing, the network gives 00:56:28.690 --> 00:56:31.650 the audience less to discover. More shows can 00:56:31.650 --> 00:56:33.889 weaken the overall message if they don't add 00:56:33.889 --> 00:56:36.329 a different audience, topic, or perspective. 00:56:37.170 --> 00:56:39.630 I asked Jenna to expand on this, so what works 00:56:39.630 --> 00:56:41.829 for them might be different for another network. 00:56:42.789 --> 00:56:45.269 Second, how the network's mission can help support 00:56:45.269 --> 00:56:48.840 its funding. Network gave Penn State's McCartney 00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:51.119 Institute something collaborative and distinctive 00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:54.139 to point to. The student fellowship also creates 00:56:54.139 --> 00:56:56.420 educational value that funders and institution 00:56:56.420 --> 00:56:59.159 leaders can understand. Doesn't mean funding 00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:02.760 is automatic, but mission -based work can have 00:57:02.760 --> 00:57:05.579 real place in an institution's budget when the 00:57:05.579 --> 00:57:08.880 value is clear. Jenny even said this was one 00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:11.280 of the easiest things that she's been able to 00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:15.179 push through in the institution. Third, The network's 00:57:15.179 --> 00:57:17.699 website doesn't need to become the central home 00:57:17.699 --> 00:57:21.179 for every show. Each podcast can keep its own 00:57:21.179 --> 00:57:24.239 platform, but the network sites organizes topic 00:57:24.239 --> 00:57:27.300 -based articles, creator information, and links 00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:30.659 to shows. Those links also build domain authority 00:57:30.659 --> 00:57:33.760 over time. That expands the reach of the content 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:36.360 without requiring everyone to move onto one system. 00:57:37.019 --> 00:57:39.599 It also means the network's name and website 00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:43.000 matter more than a single logo page. Truly something 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:45.460 worth considering for your own network. If an 00:57:45.460 --> 00:57:47.659 institution can make it happen, what's stopping 00:57:47.659 --> 00:57:51.420 you from doing it yourself? Fourth, and this 00:57:51.420 --> 00:57:54.559 one I love, the student fellowship felt especially 00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:56.900 distinctive. Yes, I know they grabbed it from 00:57:56.900 --> 00:58:00.000 one of our former guests, Marc Lacour, but creating 00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.380 a structure where student practice interviews, 00:58:02.900 --> 00:58:05.780 editing, marketing, show development with working 00:58:05.780 --> 00:58:08.539 podcasters as mentors. Some continuing their 00:58:08.539 --> 00:58:11.280 podcast others bring those skills into institutions 00:58:11.280 -->

00:58:14.340 worth existing shows It gives a network a role 00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:17.480 in developing future creators not only promoting 00:58:17.480 --> 00:58:20.840 current ones Might not be possible for all networks, 00:58:21.179 --> 00:58:24.159 but I know many who could find this as a viable 00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:27.739 option to explore So I urge you to there's a 00:58:27.739 --> 00:58:29.519 lot in there to sit with and I'm curious what 00:58:29.519 --> 00:58:32.639 you learned once again Thank you for tuning in 00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:35.320 The show wouldn't be possible without some amazing 00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.300 companies and sponsors, so I must say thank you. 00:58:38.869 --> 00:58:40.889 The show is produced by the amazing, incredible 00:58:40.889 --> 00:58:42.889 team at Stories and Strategies. If you don't 00:58:42.889 --> 00:58:45.130 know Doug and Emily, I suggest you reach out 00:58:45.130 --> 00:58:48.349 and learn what they do. I'm using RSS .com for 00:58:48.349 --> 00:58:50.730 podcast hosting, as podcast hosting is more than 00:58:50.730 --> 00:58:54.090 just storage. RSS .com provides so many features 00:58:54.090 --> 00:58:56.510 to ensure a great podcast experience. They're 00:58:56.510 --> 00:58:58.869 easy to use. They give you maximum distribution. 00:58:59.110 --> 00:59:01.230 There's a community to learn from. They have 00:59:01.230 --> 00:59:04.250 monetization solutions and so much more. And 00:59:04.250 --> 00:59:06.090 they have a plan that works great for podcast 00:59:06.090 --> 00:59:09.590 networks, not just individuals like me. Systems 00:59:09.590 --> 00:59:11.809 and processes are key for consistency needed 00:59:11.809 --> 00:59:14.289 in podcasting, which is why I turned it to Nord 00:59:14.289 --> 00:59:16.909 Flow, a dedicated podcast project management 00:59:16.909 --> 00:59:21.340 built by podcasters for podcasters. Most likely 00:59:21.340 --> 00:59:22.940 if you're listening this, we all know the power 00:59:22.940 --> 00:59:25.320 of repurposing the content. That's why I turned 00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:29.219 to Cast Magic. Using their AI, I'm able to turn 00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:33.340 in my scripts for intros, outros, content that 00:59:33.340 --> 00:59:36.000 I'm able to give to my guests, and so much more. 00:59:36.619 --> 00:59:38.380 You can check out the links in the show notes 00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:41.039 for everything we've discussed here today. To 00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:42.940 those of you who've rated and reviewed, reached 00:59:42.940 --> 00:59:45.679 out with comments, thank you. If you haven't, 00:59:45.820 --> 00:59:48.780 go ahead and leave a review. And also, I'm using 00:59:48.780 --> 00:59:51.119 a new feature that lets you send me a voice note. 00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:53.840 The link is in my show notes. Want to give me 00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:55.760 feedback, share your thoughts, you can easily 00:59:55.760 --> 00:59:59.090 record it now. As I say, life is about time and 00:59:59.090 --> 01:00:01.449 relationships. You have no clue where one conversation 01:00:01.449 --> 01:00:03.769 is going to take you. And this is why I'm able 01:00:03.769 --> 01:00:05.949 to have this podcast and bring you these great 01:00:05.949 --> 01:00:08.030 conversations. That's why I love networking, 01:00:08.050 --> 01:00:10.190 because I have no clue where those conversations 01:00:10.190 --> 01:00:12.469 will lead. And I guarantee you, you have no clue 01:00:12.469 --> 01:00:14.210 where these conversations you're listening to 01:00:14.210 --> 01:00:16.489 today will take you, but I guarantee your future 01:00:16.489 --> 01:00:19.989 self. Thank you for tuning in. I live on LinkedIn. 01:00:20.289 --> 01:00:23.710 Reach out. Let's talk. Link in the bio. To those 01:00:23.710 --> 01:00:25.889 of you who've already done so, I appreciate you. 01:00:25.949 --> 01:00:28.550 That means alone that the podcast is doing its 01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:31.690 job. I have a newsletter, also linked in the 01:00:31.690 --> 01:00:33.889 show notes, that promotes podcasts to listen 01:00:33.889 --> 01:00:36.190 to because discovery is difficult as we've talked 01:00:36.190 --> 01:00:38.710 about on the show. It's on LinkedIn. Subscribe 01:00:38.710 --> 01:00:41.349 and find podcasts reviewed weekly along with 01:00:41.349 --> 01:00:44.829 my guest recommendations. Always. New episodes 01:00:44.829 --> 01:00:46.730 come out every Thursday wherever you can see 01:00:46.730 --> 01:00:49.869 in your podcast. Until next time, I appreciate 01:00:49.869 --> 01:00:50.210 you.

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