ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tommy talks with Steve Coll, author of Directorate S: The C.I.A. and America's Secret Wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan, about why the hell we’re still fighting in Afghanistan after 17 years and the destabilizing influence of our nuclear-armed frenemy, Pakistan.

English
United States
explicit content

TRANSCRIPT

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00:01:00free guarantee hurry to tommyjohn.com world and get 20% off your first order that's tommyjohn.com world for 20% off your first order tommyjohn.com / World welcome back pod save the world thank you guys for tuning in my guess today is Steve call he is the author of a new book about the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the CIA role he doesn't someone who probably knows more about the region than anyone else in Academia or journalism and so you know we talked about the effort to use drones to take out terrorist we had talked about troop levels in Afghanistan but we started with the challenge that stems from Pakistan and their destabilizing role in the region and their nuclear weapons program which increases the risk and threat from everything we do there to help you enjoy the interview and I think you will enjoy his books if you want to learn more
00:01:56I guess today on pod save the world is Steve call he's the author of the directorate S the CIA in America's Secret wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan that book is really almost a sequel to a fantastic book of cuss words words came out several years ago it's also a staff writer the New Yorker and the dean of the Columbia University graduate school of Journalism Steve thank you so much for being here but thanks for having me going to start you off with a light question like easy pop quiz how many nuclear weapons do we think Pakistan is more than a hundred and more than a hundred I think one problem with that program which is been around since the 1980s is that they have moved in recent years toward what are called tactical nuclear weapons meaning smaller yield more portable weapons that might be used on the battlefield or at least might be constructed to convince India that they might be used on the battlefield so they're the kind of weapons that are particularly dangerous if you're thinking about them from a counterterrorism perspective rights are not in the gigantic Silo somewhere in the middle of nowhere there
00:02:56smaller so we didn't get to really bring the next question is have secure do you think those weapons are and how worried are the National Security officials you talk to you for this book and for your job generally about these nuclear weapons falling into the hands of terrorists or Rogue elements in Pakistan I guess when you talk to people who specialize in nuclear weapons security they they start with the question will how big is the attack in force because your defenses depend on whether somebody is turning up with like a brigade or Five Guys in Black masks and so there's really no fence that could stop the collapse for example of the Pakistan Army or Civil War or something along those lines and I'm the pakistanis are wary of our help in this area because they suspect that we might be looking to neutralize or identify where their weapons are and so and we offer for example I'm sophisticated knowledge about how to essentially
00:03:56lock on a nuclear weapon they tend to be. Thanks we already know how to do that so I'm in a relationship with China they can take advice if they secret they always assurance that they got it but I think we remain concerned in part because of just a broader question of Pakistan's long-term stability and the possibility that it Security Services might in some scenario I'm split or or have somebody come up within the command Authority who has a radical view of the world so I started with the pop quiz because the nuclear equation of everyone's favorite kind of Pop Quiz because the little public discussion about Afghanistan that occurs in this country it's usually revolves around troop levels and fighting the Taliban and Al-Qaeda or Isis but you think we'd be in Afghanistan if not for the risk that is seen in Pakistan's nuclear Arsenal I think probably not and I think the challenge of pack
00:04:56stand stability and the role of its nuclear weapons in both and tutoring us from taking direct action that might destabilize the country further friend and as a reason to try to stabilize the region you know wasn't described in public very often as a core element of the war because it's such a sensitive subject Park Cities hate for us to talk about their nuclear program but I think in the decision-making it was always there yet there is a constant concern about what we do or what we say across the border how much do you think that concern about the Pakistani responses as hamstrung us in our policy goals over time well we've had trouble building a deep understanding with their leadership based on trust and based on honesty it's just been a struggle and this is not the first phase
00:05:56of our relationship where we declare that were allies but then not conducted ourselves with transparency or or trust on either side and then you know there was during the Obama Administration 2010 a very serious effort to try to have an honest conversation with them about big picture questions and strategy and an interest and that was probably as close in the modern era era is a Pakistani sent come to answering our basic? What do you want to take to get you to change your conduct in relation to these Islamic militant clients that are causing us so much grief in the region so much instability and you know there's this is a scene in the book where the leader of the pack of San army.com Yanni who was also for Mariah side director of the Pakistani intelligence service you know he writes a series of papers into the National Security Council the first ones very Bland and looks like it just was written by the Foot
00:06:56Ministry kind of just talking points second one was a little farther in the third one which you know Doug lute who led the Afghan Paxton policy at the National Security Council at that time he called it kyani 3.0 it was piano it was pretty specific time and a little bit bracing for the Americans to read because it was essentially you say what do we want in order to be have a different kind of relationship and maybe pursued different policies we would want a free trade agreement we would like the civilian nuclear deal that you gave to India we wouldn't help with our energy deficits we want to negotiate more successfully with India for access to water and and I think the specialist took that paper in and they said what I'm not sure we can do this I mean this is politically a big scratch but it was at least an exchange about what really a tissue for breakfast and then of course we got the 2011 of the whole relationship fell apart because of Raymond Davis and
00:07:56the killing of Osama bin Laden and so on I want to ask you a little more about the texting leadership and that's rwb talk about let's talk about Ray Davis for a minute because I would have seen the White House at the time can you tell that story of hooray Davis was and what he did and why that was such a disaster for us pecks in a relation yeah so he was in Special Forces and and intelligence and had been abroad for some time but when he comes into the picture in Pakistan in early 2011 he's working as a contractor for the CIA up there bass in Lahore Pakistan which is in the heart of the Punjab closer to India them to Afghanistan but it's an area that has these Kashmir oriented militants and and terrorists including groups that it carried out the Mumbai attack in the CIA had turned its attention to the some of these groups in and Raymond Davis's job was basically to go around and Scout locations and to set up meetings for career CIA
00:08:56officers with their sources to make sure that those meetings were secure and so he was driving around Lahore which is a very busy City in his own vehicle without anyone else in the car and he had a pistol with him and he had a bunch of burglar to equipment turned out and give us a parent Lee scouting some routes that he would use for other meetings and he saw a couple of guys on motorcycles behind them that looked as if they were preparing to Rob them in fact they flashed the bore of a gun by his account at an intersection and then he drove to the next intersection took a pistol out and the guys pulled up alongside him on their motorcycle and again flash their weapons indicate that he he should you know cooperate with them and he picked up his pistol and shot one of them dead through the windshield and then the other one ran away and he got out of his vehicle took a few paces and shot that guy dead in his back as he was bleeding then he took the keys, took out a digital cameras phone
00:09:56two pictures of the of his victims to indicate I think that they had been armed and he got back in his car and try to get a white one now I'm mob gathered try to prevent him from leaving followed him and eventually he was arrested by the Pakistani police and that set off a diplomatic crisis between United States and Pakistan before it got worse when efforts were a car was sent out to retrieve him and I believe that car struck and killed someone and route right now that was awful the CIA base learning that he was trying to get away set of Chase car out of the consulate and the driver jumped the median strip to get away from some traffic I guess and struggle young man on a motorcycle coming the other way killed him he was just a middle-class shop owner and they the Chase car failed to reach Raymond Davis and return to the to the consulate but it was a really ugly and ugly day and all of that was complicated
00:10:56like so many future conversations with Pakistan by Osama Bin Laden because there was now this CIA officer contractor Scout whatever we want describe me as sitting in a prison as a few officials in the US government knew that this operation was being planned to get Osama Bin Laden riding why did they think it was so critical to get ray Davis out before taking any action against them on while they thought there might be retaliation against him if they did strike inside Pakistan without asking permission you know there was also a question of who knew what about what I don't think anyone believe that Raymond Davis knew anything about the surveillance operation but you know they've been a lot of a lot of work done to try to assess this house and I would have odd by CIA station in Islamabad and so you know it's just it was not plausible to carry out this strike while he was in prison if you
00:11:56you know if you were concerned about his welfare for sure that I think I was the main concern so we got him out but they took a diplomatic effort and there was an enormous cost to relations between the US and the back standings but I think that story is sort of I think helps pain about a picture about the relationship we have with the Pakistani intelligence service in the book is named director at a switch cover action arm of the isi are the inter service intelligence agency which is the Pakistani intelligence service you think they epitomize that's not confusing relationship we have in the region on the one hand they've been a critical partner in our counterterrorism efforts they have access to places we don't get too they can penetrate pay off whatever terrorist networks that we can't but they also support terrorist groups that are working to destabilize Afghanistan we spy on them they spy on us can you explain a bit of that fought relationship in the double game that is I plays and how we manage that
00:12:56it goes back you describe you very well I mean it goes back to the 1980s when we were collaborators in that kind of business against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan so it was the partnership in the CIA the Saudi intelligence service in the royal family and is I that funneled all this money and weaponry to the Afghan mujahideen we were fighting the Soviet forces and that was when I As I Grew into a much larger and more corrosive institution in Pakistan and it's covered action arm also really seized upon this strategy of using radical Islam is malicious as clients in order to challenge the first the Soviets but then later in Kashmir India and so at we left after the Soviets left more or less and I guess I continued and the Taliban became their principal client during the 1990s as the Taliban in the midst of a terrible Civil War could have swept as the purifying movement to end the war
00:13:56the power in my 1996 at taken Cabo and controlled most of the country and I guess I was their main Patron it was it was barely clandestine they have they ran all their supply lines and military training and and supplies through Pakistan and so that's what we encountered on 9/11 the Taliban Hubbard Al Qaeda all kind of carried out the September 11th attacks Taliban didn't participate in those attacks but they they were complicit because of the sanctuary they provided and when we came in we can front it and I is I that I had centrally nurtured the movement that Harbor The Killers of September 11th so we had this very complicated history and we said that you know well now you going to have to switch sides and work with and they did so for a few years especially against a foreign Al-Qaeda that were inside Pockets done after they fled Afghanistan in 2001 They carried out some you know pretty significant arrest
00:14:56I will check Muhammad right ramzi bin al-shibh but then you know we went off to fight a warranty Rock and they saw Afghanistan not becoming a kind of post American landscape again and they went back to their old Playbook
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00:18:08and you covered this for so long you understand these complexity so well but the general public conversation about Afghanistan to the extent that there is one is about troop levels and drone strikes is Fizz best I can tell you're there was all this breathless reporting when the u.s. drop something called the mother of all bombs on a you know site in Afghanistan when despite the fact that it was basically no strategic impacts to that action do you think that lack of a complexity in the conversating about Afghanistan makes it harder for us to get this right of meat is is the public debate preventing us from actually talking about the real problem across the border in Pakistan yeah I think it is an impediment to successful strategy and the way it's playing up now is that you know there's this understandable but almost emotional hostility toward Pakistan that has built up inside the u.s. system inside the Pentagon inside the intelligent services and it's rooted in hard experience on the battlefield in Afghan
00:19:08temperature early after 2008 when you have tens of thousands of American forces went out to try to get a change the equation on the ground in Afghanistan and they were frustrated by Taliban and who were attacking them with the it was certainly from Pakistan with passive and active support from Pakistani intelligence services and Frontier Corps troops so you Americans died Americans wounded by Taliban units that were clearly winning support from Pakistan and that left a lot of the people in command furious at Pakistan and and some of those people are now in the Trump Administration so HR McMaster the National Security advisor did a couple of doors out there that the height of the war James Mattis the second Secretary of Defense in the same thing and you know it's not those two individuals but it's all the kernels and lieutenant colonel's and Brigadier generals who who fought that wore so because of abbottabad and Osama bin
00:20:08and because of his heart experience there is a kind of an effort now to pressure Pakistan Without Really engaging with the reality that any Rim stability any reduction of violence in Afghanistan is going to have to include engagement with Pakistan yes I want to get to that some of those policy decisions which is the first question you you wrote back in 2009 that are record of policy failure in the Afghan region in Afghanistan Pakistan should humble all of us so here are some more recent humbling facts in January to BBC conducted a study that found the Taliban were openly active in fighting in 70% of Afghanistan not just today the UN reported that more than 10,000 Afghan civilians were killed or wounded in violence last year the security situation has deteriorated even a major cities like, do you think that this 17 year-long us effort in Afghanistan has served either us interest in the region or the interest of the Afghan people in anyway it's hard to our
00:21:08that served us interests in the region other than those that were at stake immediately after 9/11 when nobody knew if there was another attack coming and they were scared to death that Al-Qaeda I had another planning cycle underway and so they went to break them up with the initial war in Afghanistan I think that was justifiable award Justified out of ignorance but there was you know also the shock of the scale on the September 11th attacks in fear about what might be coming next but other than that it's hard to make that case for the Afghan people having a little more complicated because we tend to think of Afghanistan and cliched terms as seen on the land of Warring tribes in Perpetual conflict in and and that's not that's not right and Century Afghanistan was poor but it was at peace with its neighbors and internally it had a pluralistic constitutional government a multi-ethnic army that was not the right size 80,000 soldiers to for a country in its condition and the suffering that Afghanistan has endured was caused by an hour
00:22:08what Invasion by the Soviet Union and then the escalation that is I in the CIA participated in the Civil War and so forth so after the town of Enfield New Afghans came pouring home to try to restore the country that the older among them still had to live in memory of and and they really counted on the International Community that the bond agreement was really remarkable thing and they performed under it initially is that they wrote their constitution of based on the Constitution had in the 1960s day staged a successful presidential election with high participation they staged a successful parliamentary election and if we hadn't gone off to fight the warranty Rock if we hadn't been so ideologically opposed to providing reconstruction assistance in that. Said 2002 to 2006 you know they might have gotten the support from the International Community that I think they deserved since then you know that the government has
00:23:08fragmented still a big population in the cities that counts on the International Community to forestall another civil war door or the Taliban come back so it's kind of hard to argue that they should just be abandoned but dropping bigger bombs on the Taliban in the countryside is clearly not going to change the war report this out in the book and also you know her in almost every public Declaration of policy maker makes about Afghanistan which is that there is no purely military solution to this war in particular against the Taliban there has to be some sort of reconciliation process of political solution peace talks and yet this emphasis is on troop levels taking out bad guys I understand the frustration that probably everyone who's dealt with the Afghanistan policy feels about in perfect Partners in Afghanistan right right now you have a literal Warlords hurting and government use a literal mass murderer was the vice president long time President Obama
00:24:08cars I was erratic and unstable but like what do you think the best way to to increase the sort of softer assistance in the Diplomatic effort we put forward into Afghanistan that I might have actually improve the situation in a lot of the deal with Partners like those who are in perfect at best but I think you have to bring the regional governments into the picture as much as possible and then the Obama administration had a really difficult hand to play after inheriting the war in 2009 and particularly the problem that was more severe than then it is today was the package that was falling apart and the big project had to be to prevent Pakistan from collapsing I mean remember in 2009 the Pakistani Taliban at war with the Pakistani state were rocking Pakistani cities with car bombs they were even attacking their paymasters that I saw they blew up and I saw building in Lahore at one point they came marching out of a region in the mountains called the SWAT and
00:25:08people fall in the spring of 2009 MIT enter into Islamabad and this is a country as we started talking about that have nuclear weapons again you know what the Taliban in charge of it and so an unintended consequence of the war in Afghanistan was the massive destabilization of Pakistan when Al Qaeda migrated across the border into Pakistan and hooked up with local groups that is I had suffered over the years for its misguided foreign policy purposes in so that Frankenstein monster just went on a rage of between 2007 and say roughly 2014 and Pakistan and you are the worst hers and it's ever know now they have gotten a grip on the country since then the Army Security Services I mean it's not without terrorism but it is much better than it was during the Obama years and there is an opportunity to go back to talking and not be quite so intimidated by Pakistan Zone in stability, but the bigger picture is everybody in the neighborhood wants to prevent
00:26:08another Afghan Civil War it's not in anybody's interest to see Afghanistan collapse again China certainly doesn't want to see that Central Asian republics to the north of Afghanistan don't want to see that Iran does not want to see that Pakistan though they are responsible for a lot of the trouble in Afghanistan certainly don't want of Civil War because they know that he'll spill back into Pakistan so there is in fact enough of a common interest in stabilizing Afghanistan to undertake really active Regional diplomacy isn't going to be easy and there's no Panacea but that's what I think needs to be Resorts done to town of inner part of the picture to talking to them and having contact with them is essential because you know they're going to come under pressure only if the government's that support them and I decide that they want to change that the empty equation mats are getting very complicated I mean you start with who do we even call
00:27:08hey that mean we literally Divine ministration literally tried to work with them to set up a Taliban office that could be used for these sorts of negotiations but even getting to that point was fraught right yeah well they what we have never really thought about talking to the Taliban in before the Obama Administration the Bush Administration had a clear policy of treating the Taliban as if they were Al-Qaeda which I don't think it made much sense looking at the fax and it certainly didn't make much sense and in terms of having a strategy to compliment military action with negotiations so when the Obama Administration came in they appointed both the National Security Council and at the state department you know a cell that's actually to try to figure out whether there was somebody to talk to and it in the book describes how in the first Glen really year your plus I mean it was just about trying to figure out who's out there and they you know the end of British you need help maybe well maybe MI6 has some long-standing set of contacts
00:28:08they didn't have any addresses they didn't have any phone numbers and eventually this guy surfaces there was a little bit of as it turned out turmoil in the Taliban leadership about who their political representative was going to be and they changed their their kind of Chief negotiator and fundraiser and eventually made made it known first of the Germans and then to the United States who who we should talk to him and then that guy was younger I didn't try and log on his thirties and I know who had a long history as a personal aide time will Muhammad Omar the Emir of the Taliban and so we we did eventually start talking to him and I think achieving that political office even though the negotiation was collapsed and it was a failure and it was complicated by Hamid Karzai is not wanting it to happen in BIOS eyes roll but you know we did at least establish that there was a political wing of the Taliban and
00:29:08they still have that office in Qatar people go talk to them but probably more Europeans anybody else. But if somebody wanted to get back to trying to connect Regional diplomacy with the Taliban position in the war at least now there isn't it there's an address any talks with the US the Afghans the pakistanis in the Taliban are going to be a complicated right now no harm in trying
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00:31:36if you'd ask any one of President Trump senior foreign policy team mental pretty recently what their policy was in Afghanistan it would essentially have been what Obama was saying in 2009 which was we should fight our way to the negotiating table not Trump's doing it with you what 1/10 of the number of troops that Obama had that as opposed to that point But ultimately it's it's largely the same until a couple weeks ago Trump was asked at an event about his policy and you said we don't want to talk with the Taliban and said we're going to destroy the whole Insurgency I don't know if his team took him seriously when he said that the Taliban certainly did and they responded to me what would you have a sense of what their actual policy is and if those statements had a real impact on the potential for future talks I think they're their policy is what you described that they edited it has the same contradictions that that we've seen in both the bush and Obama years where there's an acknowledgement
00:32:36outside of the president anyway that the war camp you want on the battlefield in that we're fighting them to the negotiating table but then the only kind of line of policy that is resourced to the max is the is the military side I think they see themselves as being more assertive consistent and putting pressure on Pakistan by suspending a by declaring his vice president Pence did I think that we will stay in Afghanistan until the last terrorist is gone forever and that somehow this combination of toughness on Pakistan and resolve will cause the Taliban realize that they that they should negotiate know I did I'm skeptical about that I don't see them the record to support that hypothesis but that's what I think Steven self doing you've mentioned they're cutting off of Aid to the pakistanis me the 8th date I think in early January they said they would cut off security systems two packs and in an effort to isolate them and change their support
00:33:36the violent proxies we talking literally like the haqqani network or let do you have any sense of whether that decision has been effective or how it has been received within the Pakistani system but I don't think it's it's been effective yet and it may never be we sanction Pakistan for a decade even more severely than this over there nuclear program and it didn't change their conduct then and in many ways there any more resilient position now because they're most important allies China always has been and China's obviously a much bigger country with a with many more financial resources then it had in the 1990s so I see Pakistan nesting inside their relationship with China trying to draw other and Regional governments into their alliance with China at the expense of the United States I think you know if you publicly shaming Pakistan is not a great strategy and and it's only going to you know provoke
00:34:36deeper nationalism in an already fiercely nationalistic in a country and especially in the Army and unite I think they see themselves as kind of countering the American pressure primarily from the strength of the relationship with China but also don't look to Iran and to Central Asian governments even to Russia none of which really wants the United States have a long-term military presence in Afghanistan as of as a counter to whatever pressure the Trump Administration puts on them I think the one thing that might make them nervous and you can see this in the headlines the pakistanis I mean is you don't they don't want to be illegitimate in the International System and whenever they've been threatened with a possibility of being listed for example as a state sponsor of terrorism in one regime or another are they really scramble to try to avoid that and you're trying to protect them at the UN against anyting of that type but if the US were to really go after you know General
00:35:36imposed travel sanctions or that sort of thing you know that that might rattle them a little that I am not sure what have a very healthy result and you know they may seem to escalate through the haqqani is in Afghanistan in response to this pressure on it I don't know how to interpret those horrible mass casualty attack that followed the announcement of the suspension of security Aid maybe they were indigenous an unrelated but it wouldn't be unusual for iesi to try to respond to pressure with pressure of its own hesitant to sort of hang that escalation on the Trump administration's policy decision because I haven't seen any evidence time the tuba certainly the timing is is notable yeah I agree with it so what we talked about the structural weirdness hear that were fighting a war in Afghanistan and yet there's a safe haven in Pakistan where terrorists are allowed to plot and plan and train and get support from the IRS I the tax any intelligence go back to 2009
00:36:36Situation Room Obama is in there with his top generals talking about what to do whether to send tens of thousands of more troops and how to address the war Vice President Biden essentially pushed for taking out troops setting up a more robust Throne strategy to take out terrorists on a case-by-case basis do you think that's the future of our posture and Afghanistan and that the Drone strategy has been effective enough to manage that threat yes or no I mean I think you know in hindsight I'm sure President Obama would would go back to that situation room and probably make a different decision to meet with a really painful situation he was in because he inherited a war that was going south and then the first thing that happens when it becomes president is a bunch of generals come in and say you have to send troops now we got it election this summer we got to got to get moving Biden was one of those you know who cautioned against being pushed by the military but the time
00:37:36when was what it was and so yeah I think you know he he was describing a version of a counterterrorism first strategy that is more or less what we've got now and there wasn't an advise and assist component of it available at that time because the Afghan Security Forces hadn't been built up and so the other rationale for going in big was to hold the war long enough to build Afghan security forces that could then be assisted at a lower level of military aid which is again kind of where we are now wait we function is there air force they do all the fighting on the front lines for the most part and we now are back in direct combat with the Islamic State element that's popped up in eastern Afghanistan more recently but you know the part of Biden's argument that really stands out when you go back and kind of narrate the blow-by-blow of how we got
00:38:36where we are is his emphasis on Pakistan you know I mean I don't think you quite knows what to do with it inside but he does have that inside and he know he goes off to Cobble early on and meet with him and Garza Garza does everyone have visits um you know you got to get after I saw the wars in Pakistan put more pressure on them and Biden replies mr. president pakatan is 50 times more important to the United States and Afghanistan that my well I bet yeah that didn't go very well but it was young had it had the Ring of truth about the problem was that we didn't have a policy that actually would structured to recognize that fact that was a thread that he couldn't tie off or if we did it was classified as such a level that we couldn't discuss it because it all revolves around a nuclear weapons program in Pakistan that scared the shit out of everybody yeah my last question for you is probably the hardest one is it is there any sense how this great experiment in Afghanistan and
00:39:36we Destin to end up on the list of countries like Russia in the British were humbled by this country or is there a better diplomatic outcome that you can see I think we're already on the list. So I think either either it ends in tears and another long Civil War in which you know more at Cannes suffer than already have and it could be a terrible War I mean the one in the 90s was awful and now there's something more weapons in the country and the regional kind of equation is no better now that it was in the 19th so that is a deterrent I think a lot of Afghan so they don't want to relive that and they are one thing that packet that has contributed to Afghanistan through it interference is it has brought Afghans together I mean there is a strain of nationalism in Afghanistan especially among young people in the cities that's very powerful and I'm it's under Mine by ethnic polarization and factionalism
00:40:36and in a constitutional crisis in the government but there is no there there in Afghanistan and the you know the young men who volunteer to join the Army for you to win this war they're still fighting and I think there is the possibility of an active approach to the neighborhood that I don't see you know a beautiful piece bargain you know like in Columbia or what they've a menstruation negotiated with Cuba but I couldn't see the reduction of violence the gradual incorporation of more Taliban in politics both formally and informally there's already a lot of Afghan Afghan could a truce negotiations that go on cuz they don't know they have their own War apart from the international community's version of it and jumped so yeah we the idea would be to make it much less necessary for us to have fifteen thousand troops and to internationalize the counter terrorism mission that will be around for another
00:41:36what are yours at least that's what important that I hear you make off in which is that not every diplomatic effort ends with a grand ceremony and everything fixed it's grinding you piece by piece work they Cleaves off little pieces in factions and slowly reduce as violence and helps the population in frankly everyone involved exactly that's the way the world Works opening to do something more complete than but especially in the Civil War like this that's a reason to get up and do the work because you can make a difference just have to try this is one of the most complicated issues that any president will face probably for the next decade or two I I don't know that anyone in Academia or journalism knows more about Afghanistan or Pakistan and Steve call his book directory as the CIA and America secret wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan is available for purchase right now you should buy it you will learn more from that book than I did in four years at the White House so check it out thanks a lot thanks for having me really
00:42:36thanks again for listen to pod save the world if you like the show rate US interview s in the iTunes Store and means a lot to me and it helps people find all these subs and have conversations that you've enjoyed thank God

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