The final episode of This Old Marketing includes answering listener questions on the future of content marketing, Joe and Robert asking each other their own questions, and a few other surprises along the way. 

It's been an amazing ride.  Thank you for making it possible.


United States


00:00:00tell me how do you mind if I say a few words thank you
00:00:06I just want to tell you all how happy I am to be back in the studio making a picture again you don't know how much I missed all of you and I promise you I never did that to you again because I have to though he will make another picture on another picture
00:00:21if you this is my life always will be
00:00:29and those wonderful people out there in the dark
00:00:37alright mr. DeMille I'm ready for my close-up
00:01:06what is the last question
00:01:09since episode 123 of this old marketing I started each Episode by asking a question I've asked are you having fun when was the last time you made a bad choice with no good options are you scared to death that you don't know what you're doing who do you trust how long are you giving your strategy how busy were you this year are you ready for the future and of course at other questions and so what have you noticed all of this and asked me about the finale of this old marketing and said so what will be the last question
00:01:45I had to laugh because I simultaneously and inadvertently stumbled upon the title of one of my favorite science fiction short stories of all time and they gave me the idea for the perfect introduction to the last episode of the series so the last question is a short story written by Isaac Asimov in 1956 it starts in the year 2060 one that would takes place over trillions of years and tells the story of a supercomputer called the multivac and in 2061 two people are discussing entropy the second law of Thermodynamics the idea that all energy is dying and that it's some point every Star every planet everything will die in the universe leaving nothing but darkness and the two decide to ask the supercomputer if entropy of the universe can be reversed the computer responds by saying there is insufficient data to answer this question so then we jump forward in time billions of years in the supercomputer is now massively more sophisticated and humans have color
00:02:45as many many planets and two others decide to ask the multivac supercomputer this last question can entropy the dying of the universe be reversed and the computer responds by saying there is still insufficient data for a meaningful answer to this question
00:03:04then billions of years later still humankind still made up of individual bodies but Health automated and join together as a beautiful energy made up of the trillion trillion ageless bodies of humans throughout the universe that share a common energy and brain freely merge with one another and Harmony is witness to the universe die galaxies are dimming the stars are long gone most of them Fading Into black that's the universe is going dark and humankind asks then out Cosmic AC is a supercomputer is called it itself now something Beyond a computer I thing that transcends space and made up of something neither matter no more energy but of Consciousness its size something now that you've been kind can't even comprehend and humankind asks the cosmic AC can entropy be reversed and the cosmic AC says there is still yet insufficient data for Meaningful answer to this question
00:04:00and so humankind instructs the cosmic AC collect that additional data and the cosmic AC says but I have I have been working on this last question for billions of years the data is insufficient continue to collect the data that you mankind I will set the cosmic I see
00:04:20and the universe died one-by-one Stars galaxies snuffed out all was black hat is each one went black one by one humankind merged with the cosmic AC until only the cosmic AC existed and trillions of years later in the Blackness the darkness the cosmic AC finally learned how to reverse the direction of entropy but there was no one to tell it didn't matter that the answers to the questions existed there was no one to tell the answer to and so the consciousness of the cosmic AC that now and Compass to the entire universe looked into the complete darkness and found a way to create an answer the cosmic AC said let there be light and there was light
00:05:05you see I love that story so much because it is the celebration of everything that is good in all of us where we are a common energy that is built to evolve and our humanity is what makes us an energy that can evolve it is also the wonderful thought that the end of everything is the beginning of something new and so it is with us here at the show my last question to you is what will you end so that you might begin the wonderful philosopher and poet Khalil Gibran said when you reach the end of what you should know you will be at the beginning of what you should sense and I believe that seat when you sense opportunity you're seeing the new dawn of a beginning and Beginnings are wonderful aren't they they make us feel new and alive and these Beginnings are good for if they Shake us of old habits enforce listen to new patterns where we learn improve and change our perspective and so in order to 50s New Beginnings into our lives other things must end not because they're not working but precisely
00:06:05because they are working and have work they are successful we mustn't only change directions when we fail or feel stuck in something we must also be willing to change after we have achieved success with something as well you might get up from the table after you won three hands of poker in a row you might sell your company when you've accomplished that Revenue go and you're still growing you might change jobs as you're killing it in the one that you're already in you might stop running every single day after you complete that Marathon you've been training for you might conclude a series that still performing very well you might stop your podcast when you've got more listeners than you've ever had why it's not because you're tired of playing poker or scared you might not get four more for your company or because your job is a dead end or because you'll never run a marathon again or because that series might jump the shark or because you don't want to podcast anymore know it's none of those things it's simply ending
00:07:04a wonderful thing because new and other wonderful things are going and it's time to do those for a while see that's the thing life our life is always beginning this week today this show our relationships the new product the shopping spree getting fired quitting even the death of a parent it's all just starting something else your life is just a constant chance to start to begin there is no promise or guarantee of a middle or an end to any of it it's just you making choices about when to finish one story and begin a new and that's the theme of our show today our last power finale the end but not the end of the beginning for us and for you as dr. Seuss is reported to have said don't be sad because it's over be happy because it happened
00:07:56and now it's time for us to well and this beginning and begin the end are you ready to begin well then let's roll
00:08:46your listening pleasure with this old marketing take it away
00:09:06well hello content marketers this is Robert Rose and welcome to what the finale episode of piano ours this old marketing recorded Monday December 10th 2017 and with me as always as he always has been and always will be my co-host my colleague my friend and I'll just leave it at that my friend mr. Joe Follette see that's the best introduction to Brandon brother we had a great ride it's been wonderful hearing from all of our listeners and really had how mad they are all right there where we just went through another week of well I guess since the last podcast we've had four or five cities I guess we've been yeah that's right yeah that's five cities and man it's not happy it's not good I feel we've been I've been apologizing profusely for it but it is your fault
00:10:06just catching up if you just started with you starting with episode 211 you expect somebody starts off on 211 ghost interesting podcast I might try out I'll just jump in it the last week 11 to seems good oh yeah that was short that was it didn't quite work out now. Not a great night a great decision not a great show to come in on know for your first episode for sure so but but it was fun we had dinner masterclasses we were we're back with this finale episode what I was thinking for the iTunes title what should be the title of this podcast is it is it the last episode is it the finale is it the last Godfather Part 3 a little give a little shout-out to the band of it called The Last Waltz Last Waltz
00:11:06all right The Last Waltz yeah there you go get caught up in a property of iTunes or something wilstead somehow we'll run afoul of somebody's legal thing but that would be my that's my might as well go out in a blaze of other stuff from movies and stuff like that might as well go all the way out right as well do it yeah is there anything that we can do you like any other start cursing up like and we can start cursing like Sailors to hear this is funny and I just looked this up so that this episode 211 right that's right okay do you know that it is the police code 211 in California refers to a robbery there it is there it is we're stealing something I don't know
00:12:06yeah we're ripping somebody somewhere that's that's the first 210 episodes we were in the process of moving and finally we've consummated that episode 211 so the good news is is that we've already lost any listeners to the show right about now so we have to worry about it that's right way there will be no news I mean do you know what maybe there was something going to do for this show so yeah I took a bunch of questions from the crowd and thank you very much very much for everyone who submitted questions we had quite a few actually we picked about 5 of them it came in over the hashtag then through the email address and we've picked five questions that will need a will treat like news stories right so we'll just have a fun little discussion I'm sure will I'm sure the current events of the day will emerge during some of this
00:13:06and then will shift into the next segment which will be questions for each other which we have not shared with one another we these will be the very first time I'm so making sure either some great show or some very dead air we have not shared our questions for each other both of your questions that we have prepared for each other to sort of round out the episode and then we have a little something at the very very end that will just used to say ciao arrivederci sayonara all that and that's it that's the format for today show that sounds like a really good way to do it and you know what it doesn't matter anyways because it's not what you know about listenership anything like that it sucks it's all it's all good
00:14:06that's right. That's why we're going to go out with a bang going to do the the Seinfeld
00:14:10and go out and hopefully a little better than the app needed that hopefully a little better than we're not going to end up in jail that's the best that is the spoiler alert right that we don't end up in jail at the end of this this is a new thing though I have to tell you because of the way we produce this I listen to your opening it's the first time ever I've listened to it before we've gone live we've recorded the show that's true that is true cuz I finished it early and cuz I had written it a little early and and and I yeah it's so it's you got that you got to hear it a little early so there you go kill a podcast when are listenership is higher than it's ever been well because Joe's an idiot and it's your fault
00:15:10shake your head like I've done like I'm a dog and I did something wrong I go to your corner anyways should we take some of these questions that we had from the crowd yes they were still together I think that we should answer them as honestly as we can yes absolutely so throughout the show obviously we'll be touching on some of the running inside jokes hear some of the things that have been long-running memes within within this old marketing I'm sure but probably the one that has lasted the longest I don't like it's the oldest of all of the inside jokes but certainly the one that has lasted the longest because of how wrong do they are here is the fact that Apple might purchase the Disney in some kind of acquisition and a few of the questions right sort of rolled up a few of the questions
00:16:10came in about this basically saying do you think it really is ever going to happen and what if they just bought a smaller company like ESPN what if they just bought part of Disney like ESPN or something like that so maybe since this is your flawed Theory I'll let you go first and and and answer this
00:16:32I actually have inside information Robert this is in the works this is happening I'm going to break it off it's going to Twitter is going to be a flood lights bright white with Bitcoin is that what they're going to do the Winklevoss twins are going to buy apple and Disney after they have their your 2 million dollars over 2 billion dollars or whatever it is right now so here is my belief I believe that sometime next year if there is going to be talked of this happening not just ESPN although I did like that idea that they might just buy a part of it but not even though and I know Disney's not too happy with the ESPN right now for obvious reasons this will start to happen maybe the end of 2018 We Roll we talked about and it will be consummated sometime in 2019 or apple will actually purchased
00:17:31and it will finally happen and I don't know and I'm going to say I don't know what took them so long but you know what they're big companies it's complex these mergers and Acquisitions of these type just happen overnight so you know I'll probably have to be consulted in the decision as it as it somewhere it will absolutely happen and I'm I can't believe that all this time you've been I know deep down you really do believe it's going to happen and even putting up this front and I think people are tired of it I think you really need to do something about that well do you know do you can you can you can just go get hoisted up by your own petard as it were and just and get over yourself cuz it's not going to happen here's what is going to happen Disney is going to make a purchase and they will do so before the end of the year and that purchase will of course be 20 search
00:18:31happening in talks but that's that's a prediction that's going to happen if it's happening you can't say like stranger things is coming out with season 2 and it's already out I mean to sound like what if it's not done yet or still saying that it might not happen but it's going down the road what do you think of that deal I think that's a great deal I think that's the riunione of Marvel it's the it's the it's it's it's a it's it's it makes perfect sense it makes perfect sense for for Disney to make that acquisition because I see a lot of like the discovery Network in AMC do you see that those content media companies selling off to larger groups now do you think this starts a trend
00:19:28well thus the ones that remain independent yes I think that's I think that's true Discovery Communications I mean maybe you know its Discovery Communications has its own sort of thing going on right so they just fired they just acquired the they just took themselves acquired scripts and got into the entertainment in the interactive space so they've been growing and will you know but the ones that the few cable networks traditional cable networks if you will or content brands that that that that offer most of their programming over classic television I think yes I think get acquired or or or become larger over there getting over the course of the next year I mean that's just you know we are seeing the consolidation of media and and
00:20:28I think all of that I mean we talked about this in the workshops and master classes and with clients all over the world which is this consolidation of media is happen both on by the way both print television film across the spectrum of of content and that consolidation is all about really falling under either telecommunications companies you know to go but all of it is around over the top all of it is around access to audiences which of course is what we've been preaching for a long time but all of it means how do I get closer to the device Network that reaches my audience is because that's where you know those that are depending and you know not to bring politics into it but when net neutrality ultimately is sadly get out disemboweled we are going to see that the telecommunications companies are going to wield unprecedented power when it comes to what it is we see in the packages that we have
00:21:28Frost different kinds of data services so whether you're a subscriber of Verizon or comcast or any of the other you know handful of companies that have access to what it is you see and what it is you pay to see you're going to see a lot of get out real movement toward entertainment companies moving to be bigger and bigger so that they wield more power that's the whole point they have to wield a lot of power in order for her to be able to fend off if they don't have access to at access to the audience is another word that needs to be painful for you know Verizon or comcast is a while we're not going to cover you were going to make it could never going to cover you last and that's only going to be possible if these companies start to acquire each other and become a bigger in a bigger bigger piece of salami asked you that cuz it's because you've talked many times on the show about net neutrality and a passionate you are about
00:22:23everything that's going on here so so I've two questions for you first of all is it a done deal
00:22:30and I guess the second Apollo up as if it is a done deal and this is going to get horrible for consumers you basically are making the case that you're going to see many much more m&a happy because of of getting bigger and wielding that power so true
00:22:49yes I think that is true I mean look the yes I think it's a done deal I think that you know despite the overwhelming protests and Dino resistance if you will win and you know and all of that I just think the the political winds right now are too much in the favor of the current Administration for that to change I think there's there's no incentive for them not to move you to move ahead and and really take it away now mediately start to see some of the worst case scenarios that you've heard about like you know all of a sudden your Verizon calls you up and says hey if you want and if you want to access Facebook Twitter and Linkedin is going to be XYZ price and if you want to access you know Netflix Amazon and others is going to be why price I don't think you're going to see that by the way there are plenty of examples in the world
00:23:49that is the case there's been some in a wonderful world examples of this going around I think it down in South America and end in Mexico where you know nothing there is no net neutrality in this is exactly how telecommunications companies price their their packages right so if you want package a you're going to get access to social media and email and then if you want package be or adding package be you get access to certain websites or stuff like that deep deep the argument on consumer base media isn't the worry the worry when we generally when you hear about this on mainstream media you and your hearing you just like we're going to pay more for Netflix because they're going to pass that cost under the consumer will maybe they won't the worry for me is not there the worry for me is that small websites like us to create content marketing oriented websites are the where the guy gets thrown off here that's what gets thrown off is your neighborhood blah
00:24:49or the company website or those kinds of things that are not part of any big entertainment or media Network and quite frankly Reed such an issue-oriented audience that nobody cares that you can't get there or that the speed of your website is so slow that nobody wants to visit it etcetera etcetera that's the worry for me it's not the you know if somebody says hey here's a faster package for Netflix yeah I'm bummed out about that as a consumer but it doesn't bother me as a business person as a business person what we should all be infuriated at is that we are not going to be part of those packages weird we are automatically going to be thrown into the slow lane and that's the that's the really worrying thing that happens immediately or not I don't know I don't think it does I think just given the media political and and general Pitchfork and torches environment that were and I think most of those companies would be wise to wait some amount of time but it will happen in varying degree will absolutely happen so yeah I think the I think the battle is over I think we lost
00:25:48I think I think it's going to happen in end and unfortunately it's going to take another you know another major change in the election cycle to two rivers that this is already a very depressing show me talking about this happening and you share couldn't believe that apple is not going to buy Disney which Wells out there is no cover that one enough to be do we have to anybody else with that question I want to make sure we do that just as I don't think that Disney is going to give any of those properties like ESPN no way yes PN certainly not ESPN ESPN is a problem child but the reason it's a problem child is not because of the business model or whatever yes pn's problem is his contract with the NBA in the NFL in the Heat and the baseball it's it's big as we spend way too much on contract so it's just it's very contract heavy right now
00:26:48NFL well in the thing is is when they let go of those contracts will be a lot of companies out of Facebook and other ones that will be happy to pick those up that's exactly right that's exactly what that form or bad ESPN right sizes at that point and starts to become profitable again and will be just fine given if you know if he can stem the you know the the bleeding of subscribers in which it will I think I think they'll find a way to do that but but yeah like very much I can't in you will use this quote that you said which I just think is such a such a prescient quote for you talked about when I was like all concerned about the New York Times and you said don't worry about the New York Times they're just right size if they're becoming of the right size of company that they should be in today's world and I think that's such a smart Outlook of it right it's not what it was but it's what the right sizes for today and so the New York Times as a size of the company that it should be today is the right size and I think that's the that's what you'll see with ESPN as well that's right
00:27:48was the Heyday of print media and print media became so profitable because it was the only game in town for a while and then now if you look at New York Times numbers they're good they're fine there's nothing wrong with them at all there. They're kind of almost back to where you would say hey this is this is a good business so you might even look at their stock and invest in it but there was a time when you know when when they had almost a monopoly on that kind of news coverage and you didn't have another choice will shoot they were getting premium sponsor packages and that's the way it is and they just got too big and now with all the competition now they're back to this make sense for the competitive set that's right to me and I think you're right would go through the same thing because they were the only game in town for a long time that's right so
00:28:36and I'd you can see like Shannon Sharpe on Fox Sports FS1 and and Skip Skip Bayless say oh my God I had to read that as a kid in Dallas breeding that reading that nut case type in all caps pretty much can you imagine the producer that walks up to them and say alright guys I don't know what you're talking about what we're going to do a lot of yelling today cuz the fantastic
00:29:24anyway yeah I died Greta all right when we got back alright here we go this one is one that we get asked all the time and then came courtesy of the hashtag switch is Will advertising ultimately paid media advertising die and or will it be replaced by content marketing what do you think no no nothing ever dies nothing we we still have radio we still have print media we will have that for a long long time but I am at the point we were just making everything just seems to right-size right I mean social media comes out at blooms and then it'll right-sizing and even the things I'm hoping the things that we see with with Facebook and we seen Twitter do that Twitter is already done that they've date becomes a sort of settled into this is the size company that they're going to be consistent growth over time that's fine so advert
00:30:24I think they're always I think are good reasons to advertise you have a good solid marketing mix depending on what your overall goals are actually like the idea and we talked about it many times on this show and then master classes that I'd like to see more organizations advertise their content so they could build their audiences that way instead of just advertising for you're some kind of a product pitch or whatever but as long as there's my pillow there's going to be advertising so
00:30:56oh my God I hate that ad so much it's it's really hard to overestimate you know that I have sometimes have problems sleeping would work on the road and I just the first I did a hotel I just can't get to sleep and I wake up and I turn on the television like 3:30 in the morning and there's always there's like 18 infomercials for my pillow so happy in that commercial I'm like I want to be that happy I want to sleep like that to its cells me on it but then when they give me the coupon code and see if you call the next 8 minutes and use this coupon code you can get to my pillows for one I like I'm like where's the pen and paper I'm like I got to write this out I'm going to forget it I better go call right now and then I'm like its 3:30 and they're going to be people there of course there are they friendly at anyways I digress
00:31:56that's the best that's advertising coax that's how it that's how it works right there. So what do you think about advertising I actually think paid media is it had been here so here's a prediction for you I think paid media and advertising is going to go into a Renaissance and I think it's going to what I do think is going to I don't know. As the right word but really fade from from popularity is the idea of programmatic programmatic as a pet as a strategy is just proving to be fruitless as it were and I think but paid media careful placement and is writing the Renaissance or something disruptive
00:32:48I think there could be something disruptive in the advertising space in much the same way that search advertising disrupted the space in the early 2000 I think there could be something some combination of native plus human curated + artificial intelligence something could really disrupt the entire space here where quality placement of content will begin to really innovate to space it it's a space that needs to be Innovative in the worst way the banner AD should die even if it's not going to die it should die and the you know it as we said so often it's not the real estates at what's good what the built on the real estate that really is the it's really needs to be disrupted here so throwing our money after crappy you know blinking banner ads will go away I believe and be replaced by something where we pay for placement
00:33:48real estate of other Publishers something of value weather that's interactive things whether it's you know native advertising content pieces etcetera but I think that's what advertising transforms into and I think it's due for a Renaissance but based on you know I think it would go lower before it gets higher
00:34:08but I think one of the things that we talked about earlier this year is is we said I can't even remember how many episodes was it go now we said something to the effect of we thought that this year 2017 there would be something that happens for the end of the year that sort of his the Tipping Point I think it's I think we've reached it I think you know with everything we've seen from in a Forester just came out with a new a complete report to talk about the you know not the death of but certainly the fundamental transformation of paid media it talk about you know that how in a Gardener has come out and said the same thing we have said the same thing I think you're seeing Madison Avenue finally realizes I think we have finally reached a Tipping Point where we're going to see 2018 be maybe the end of the different not to put too much about irony does the theme of the show the end of the beginning and the beginning of you know a new a new era in paid media that's what I think
00:35:06I think that
00:35:10print advertising specifically this is a shorter-term this is not what we're getting into AI or anything like that but shorter-term print advertising is going to make a Resurgence in 18 and 19 year similar to what we've seen in vinyl it sub you have less properties that offer really quality advertising of so many of them have shuttered and I think there's an opportunity to say I want to reach these people I want to do it in a in a special way and you're going to see more more print programs go that way especially where you have a lot of dissatisfaction with programmatic and digital display and they don't want to throw it all into Google and Facebook and they're like what are some other paid media opportunities that we can do something interesting and I think that you'll see that happen in print so that's I think I think you're right I think you're absolutely right I think you're absolutely right I think that I think print is quickly becoming sword
00:36:10I like that analogy very much the Divine vinyl yeah it's a hit the bottom and vinyl it's never going to go back to where was but you're going to vinyl has right size to fuel find this place of a people that really go and get her the sound quality and and and they want that touch and feel to such a special experience right right exactly if we answer that question advertising is not going away content marketing is not going to replace it I think that those companies that are truly Innovative the truly have a strategic way of thinking and looking at the approach of content marketing are going to be very successful with it and they're still going to be many many for the next 5 to 10 years that don't do it right think about it is campaigns think about the product first before they focus on the needs of Their audience a focus on too many audiences the same time all that start
00:37:10that will continue to go on we are still early days in this stuff even though got the market has been around for hundreds of years it's hard to say that I don't even think about that but it's true. Related question that is also comes in be at the hashtag which is which again is related to really both of the questions that we just answered but maybe the maybe the meaning of the advertising one most most prominently which is when will Madison Avenue start quote on quote getting or understanding the definition of content Marketing in other words I guess when will Madison Avenue start using the term and when will they start understanding it's it's it's concept would I have a definite take on this what do you think
00:37:53I'm not going to answer the question I don't think they have to
00:37:57and I don't think it's necessary for right right now the way that I look at budgetary spend for what Madison Avenue controls versus the content marketing budgetary space is Madison Avenue is the Sun and content marketing is Pluto it's not even a planet that's where we're at so if you if you were going to get the attention of Madison Avenue you have to be bigger than Pluto and where are ways away from that right now I just don't see it any big jump for that to happen and honestly I don't I mean I know you have a take and I want to hear your take but I don't care whether Madison Avenue gets it because I care about those people that are looking for a better way to communicate they want to create amazing experiences for customers change the business model of the organization take marketing to a higher place in the organizational structure those people we have
00:38:57lots of things to offer them there is a new way for them to go there not relegated to know who has the biggest budget that I love and Madison Avenue do whatever the heck they want
00:39:09that's my tail, yours is not to look I think it's incumbent upon us to continue to try and so as well as you and I have said a million times we don't really care what you call it as long as you do it and so when pressed I would say roughly the same thing which is I don't really care if they ever get it as long as they don't get in our way of trying to do it I will say this however the there is there's a difference between them doing it and and you know what do you call that branded content or just doing stunts etcetera said it wasn't the only thing that I have ject to
00:40:09put it that way
00:40:11is where it's being lumped into creating sort of longform advertising and so the more that they do that is a completely flawed strategy or like me talking about like a Dollar Shave Club or an Old Spice but yes loud is calling that content marketing and saying let's build a just filled the publication call Dollar Shave Club and do funny cute long form videos which is fine there's nothing wrong with that but to be very clear the Dollar Shave Club arguably is what gave them the valuation that it gave them were there is those long form advertising pieces that they that they created which were amazing but they were that they were just that they were long from commercials that were that were distributed over YouTube does not building an audience it's not the same thing so if we're actually going to do the thing that we call Khan
00:41:11marketing what I want and Madison Avenue to do is do it well I want them to do it right I've you know you heard me say the audiences heard me talk about you know I think the agencies of the world should be acquiring media companies because I think as a as an evolution of what we're doing strategically and and the competition that's coming in from consulting firms etc etc I think there's an opportunity there for big companies small companies medium-sized companies to become more integrated platforms that has media as a product or a profitable at you no harm of what it does Allah AR book Killing marketing so I think there's a huge opportunity there in terms of evolving the practice of marketing to building things of value which would be media properties in the short-term and and and you know other deeper more meaningful customer experiences in the long-term so I think
00:42:06advertising and marketing as we know it is evolving and content marketing is a piece of that weather that ultimately becomes the nomenclature we use or whether it's just a piece of the evolution of marketing as long as it's done well I'm I'm glad I'm glad weather you know whether we get the credit or not isn't isn't as it isn't important so the the challenge I see now is that most of Madison Avenue still has his head in the sand in the still trying to create more and more and more and more and more advertising trying to dig their way out of a hole that's just becoming deeper and deeper
00:42:40I'm going to let you know yeah I mean sandwich that wonderful quote there's the wonderful quote the only difference between a rat and a grave is the depth and you know that's the that's that's what I worry about with Madison Avenue mostly but here's the thing about Madison Avenue in a few I just was on a podcast interview and they were asking me about why don't publishing agencies or content marketing services in in Publisher generally do well there are some like Meredith really really good at most publishing agencies well why is that because it's always ancillary Revenue it's never a core part of the mission of the organization to deliver these types of services to customers it's like give me Revenue give me profit but get out of my way cuz I got to try ever tizing that's generally how it's always been and that's why they've never been successful that's the problem with Madison Avenue right now because they want to sell big
00:43:40bald created programs and they don't want to do content marketing it's harder it's more difficult to do it's not as exciting to them
00:43:49so they inherently do not want to do it that's the issue where you're going to have some of these startups content marketing agencies if you will wish you really aren't a part of Madison Avenue they can do a really good job because they understand how it works and rest and it takes time to understand how to deliver consistent content you take it to Madison Avenue they want creative that means it's on a campaign there's a time limit and it ends up being advertising so that's it that's in it it's hard to move that big ship
00:44:20I mean they got to go down to like Lexington Boulevard and that's a tough move
00:44:29what does that even mean you know what it means I don't have to explain myself you know what it means
00:44:36Dakota next that means the New York City I know what you're talking about me going to Lexington and go to park get yourself down. Soho move the street it's easier to change the street side so you that's why we're that's why they just trying to make it look like content marketing about it alright I'm going to go to our last question here from the crowd which is it and I thought it was a nice one to sort of to finish up on here which is which podcast should we listen to now that you're finishing this old marketing like where where she where should we go now there was a lot there were a lot of those questions which where where do we now spend and him we're more chuckleheads that we can we can spend our time with
00:45:36do you have any do you have any off the top of your head that you listen to her that would recommend where are audien should go well unfortunately there's nowhere else to go I mean it's just saying and I wasn't continue as a lot of nihilism continues I listen to a podcast 6 Pick 3 podcast podcast I really like what Jake is doing with the unthinkable his podcast I listen to James altucher that's not a Content marketing podcast but I like that because I get a lot of really good story writing ideas from things that I don't necessarily know about I've a lot of the stuff that I've listened to on All to show ends up at ended up as some kind of a newsletter poster whatever I think for Content creation the copyblogger FM podcast are all good they really talk about different forms of consecration from audio to
00:46:36to text you all to video so those are I mean just in case in the marketing realm those are ones I would recommend how about you
00:46:46I would so I would second all of those that you just mentioned and I would also add in exponent which is the James allworth and Ben Thompson. Almost wish I wasn't do it weekly almost every week how about that it's great it's one of us basically technology and how it's having it it's more of the cultural or bigger investment side of technology in the impact it is having on the world rather than to the marketing specific side I like entrepreneur on fire to John Lee Dumas podcast hbr ideacast is a really is a really good one and then the Tim Ferriss Tim Ferriss podcast is a really is a really good one I find for sort of you know that what was the name of the
00:47:46blanking on the name of the book that is for those kinds of tips and interviews and those sorts of things at the it's it's a it's a good one it's a good one for that and then if you're on the small business I'd duct tape marketing John chances show which is a good one that's a good that's a good one see if we've got all I mean you've got time Webster and Mark Schaefer and Michael stelzner and I mean there's a whole list of people that do some really really good podcasts there's not maybe they don't they're not as goofy and untrustworthy as we are but you know you do the best you can and I got to go I got I don't know if iTunes is going to close its doors now that this old marketing stop producing
00:48:46that's inconvenient we were only what happened it's going to be a is going to be a disturbance in the force if you will iTunes this week we don't talk much anymore I love your episode the Alderaan of five gas Steve Jobs came came back from the grave and was wondering where those old marketing was on iTunes I'm sorry I cut it off let's move on to our our last segment of the show which is the questions that we have for each other so Joe and I just as a reminder we came up with three questions each and we did not share them with each other so you would we are hearing them for the first time as you hear them and so will answer these to the best of our ability and when this is an experiment we have no idea how this is going to go so you want to go first or shall I go for it I'm happy to go first however word you want to cuz you control the show flow as as you always have
00:49:46how come I so this is kind of one that I've been curious about so besides coming to CMI working with content marketing Institute what has been in your opinion you are the best professional decision that you've made in your life and why and you assume the CMI was wanting. I already know I don't even have to see I don't want you to feel you know like you have to it's all good the bestest most important decision you ever made with when lightning struck in Chicago when you and I met for the first time that was amazing so besides that happening what was the thing that happened in your Cricket you've done so many things are you working at us web the internet going through some exciting times and you worked in a comedy club you you did all kinds of different things what really helped you sort of see things in a different light to
00:50:46to get you to where you are now is the professor of content marketing things one is a little more metaphysical than the other so they said the one that would naturally comes to mind is when I decided to when I decided to join my friends at a few nights we gave up the whole idea of becoming a corporate through climbing the corporate ladder as it were and said I was going to go join a startup when I joined the view know when I join the band at Crown Peak and and began that Journey which by the way led me to you so so there's so there's there's that to thank for it as well which is kind of a you know ass backwards way of saying how I got to you which was absolutely the best decision I've business decision I've ever made in my life but that business decision to get out of the sort of big corporate and
00:51:46agency world and go back to you know working with friends working with something I could be passionate about and love doing was going to that was 2002 that I made that decision and end and that's what it was the second one that I'll mention only because I think it's really important was when I was really young actually I went when Elizabeth and I we when we were we were we were living here in Los Angeles so we decided to move to to Washington DC we spent three years in Washington DC and it was the move and it's going to sound weird but but but it was basically speaking of changes and and and sort of you know the the the whole idea of Beginnings middles and ends and nothing what what is really the what is really the part of your life that you measure it was this decision that I made when we moved to Washington DC that I would get focused about my business goals
00:52:45show up until that point I was really focused on sort of life goals right so I was you know I had like I wouldn't I want to play music for Note 3 hours a day and I want to have time for golf is when I actually play golf I want to let you know that I had these sort of ways that I would carve up the time of my life I had basically the form of what I wanted to how I wanted to spend my time the form was really much important than the function it was you I want to do this and I want to do that and I want to have this as my day and all this for two things and after it was after I met with one of my spiritual Mentor Zach but you said I was thinking about it in the wrong way which was rather I should be thinking about it from the function first and not the form which was talk about you know you say you want to write him you'll have time for writing you know you have this idea that writing a screenplay writing a novel is the way to do that instead just think about a disc are you happy writing are you happy doing music are you happy you know performing
00:53:45and ultimately what it ended up with his I Got High by sort of RI pivoted all my ideas and goals around that idea and it was the best decision best move I ever made because when I started to find and it didn't really even become conscious until I was working at in a sort of my last days of cramping after I met you and I was making the transition over that I had actually achieved all of those things my job my career was writing performing doing music getting in multimedia doing fun interesting things it was just for a very different form than I ever thought so it's always my biggest piece of advice to young people eyes are coming out of University and is don't get caught up in the Forum think about the function of what you want to do everyday in your dreams and that's that's ultimately what I think will lead you tip Morp a penis met me at maybe not more success but certainly more happiness
00:54:40that is an acceptable answer a good I'm glad it was a little longer that it I didn't have my card here and right he is alright okay I have a question for you alright my question for you is
00:55:11so I don't know what you're going to do next so everybody's coming up to me and doing what you going to do next what does next move what's his next move and I'm like I don't know ask him I don't think he knows what I think that's true I think we you said you really don't know I think you're being absolutely honest so I think for those of you who are out there wondering what Joe's next move is I don't even think Joe knows I think that's so I'll confirm that as my first part of my question the two-part question is but do you have any current feelings what's your gut instinct about whether you're going to in the future are you going to stay and marketing and business or content from publishing companies are even the business space or do you think you may find yourself going into something completely completely different do you have any sense for that at all
00:56:01that was a very long two-part question just to give you a little bit of backstory the middle of 2017 I was struggling with the fact of what would I do in content Marketing in 2018 and and I was really struggling with what to do because I knew I wanted a big change to happen in 2018 and finally I came to the decision where
00:56:35I'm at a point in my life that most people don't get too I have the opportunity on January 1st to wake up and not have to do something and I brine ever since I had a job since I went to school and homework and go to work I had to make money I had to do something January 1st will be the first time that I am 30 years let's say that I won't have that responsibility and as I was thinking about what what should I do even with this decision about what you would do with the podcast should I continue to speak at certain events and take gigs and whatever I just said you know what I should I should try this Grand experiment that most people don't get the opportunity I mean it's probably less than a 1% of 1% they get the opportunity to just say okay I'm going to I'm going to do a detox and I'm going to just stop for a second and look at
00:57:36so that's where I was going to whether you you go and then I was thinking I don't know why I'm thinking about Joe Versus the Volcano while I tell you this story but I'm on this journey I'm going on this journey
00:57:50and I want to do it the right way I honestly do not know if I am doing it the right way but it feels that if I January 1st I just to do the complete no internet detox 30 days no social media no email and just get settled and then in February is as you know I'm taking a couple special trips one with my father and then again not not having to do anything and the biggest struggle for me personally is not coming up with something else to do it is honestly a real struggle for me and you know me been around we've been friends for a long long time I got a million ideas and even on our trip do you and I have been talking about all different kinds of ideas but it's and I'm trying not to I'm trying to just say just give your brain a break in January you have the opportunity to spend some really good quality time with your
00:58:50family about two boys 14 and 16 where I have no more excuses I'm not on the road anymore I don't have podcast that I have to get up at 6 in the morning or be out at midnight but I'm on some interview I don't have to do any of those things anymore and I can just be
00:59:10I don't know if I can just be but I would like to certainly give it a shot so that's what I'm going to I'm going to give it a shot I'm going to give it my my best when I don't know what episode it was maybe it was like maybe 10 or 15 episodes ago Robert where we talked about the about.com president that's right and I read that article but it was a podcast and he was talking about when he went from job to job one job to another job and he took 6 months I don't know if I'm taking 6 months I'm promising myself 3 months for sure but he said he took 6 months off and on his the quest to find boredom
00:59:54and that just so intrigued me and he said that he got his goals right he figured out what he wanted to do for the rest of his life and it was the best experience he ever had and it sounded seductive to me and I was like man I really want to lean into that so I don't know if I answered the second part of your question you did but that's that's kind of where that's kind of where my head's at so it's starting Jan 1 I'm going to really give it 3 full months within if I come up with a business idea I have a journal that I write it down and I forget it I'm like okay here it is not going to do anything else with it I was going to write it down and leave it there and get it out of my head and and move on in and get up and spend time with the family and be and maybe think about other people more than than Joe's world of content marketing however I could do that is very hard to get out of my own way sometimes so if I can do that then I'll be successful and then
01:00:54would be a better man on the other side I think that's the answer the question perfectly I mean I think the answer is no you don't know and that's and that's the whole point is that you're you're not knowing is the is the decision you're making I'm like you're making the decision to not know you know what's funny about that and you've you been with me as people have asked me and you've asked me and I up and it's nobody likes it answer no I know it's a very nice very very uncomfortable another business what are you doing now I'm not you said you were going to do some writing what's that about I said I would like to I think part of that plan might include writing the right now I don't have any ideas or inspiration to write anything so sonnets I think I should write sonnets I bring the Haiku back like Justin Timberlake was bringing sexy back on the brain break Haiku back I think it's going to be
01:01:54call New World Haiku back.com you heard it here first recorded the song for me
01:02:07I like this one I thought you mentioned a little bit but I'd like you to get into more detail on the specifically to content marketing
01:02:15what is your best advice about somebody who wants to get started in the content marketing industry
01:02:24oh my gosh you know it this is
01:02:30I think the answer to that question is
01:02:35go find go either go learn or go understand the strategy behind it and let me let me explain what I mean by that cuz I did I don't I'm not articulating that very well
01:02:51what I really mean here is that don't look at your career or your journey it's through a career or is an entrepreneur it as a as a channel manager of words and content you have to think of yourself as a business strategist creating a business model either in your business or as part of the business you're hired within and if you focus there if you really understand the art and the science of the strategy of content the end that means all of it right that means telling great stories it means how does content flow in the organization that means what does it mean to the business from a from a goal perspective one of the thing it just as a side note one of the things that that is I think a real trap that content practice practitioners can fall into today is the fact
01:03:51they acquiesced the business goal because they're not responsible for it in other words that they're responsible for clicks and visitors and conversions of form fills and a hand or you know whatever you know email newsletter subscribers Etc but they're not either responsible for nor do they go claim responsibility for what do those things mean to the business and so many of them today so many of us today are challenged with what is it that we really do that impacts our business like you know that truly impacts it and if you understand that if you know where your impact is you will soar high and sore far and it will not matter that you call a Content marketing because quite frankly you may or may not be the most strategic person in your business so those that are starting out I just I want you to understand the history I want you to understand the strategy behind it
01:04:51should I understand The Art of Storytelling the ability and end and don't worry about things like which button am I pushing in WordPress and which you know keyword density should I be following in how do I actually get backlinks for this different thing and all of that stuff can be had or found or hired or delegated and find yourself in the leadership position of leading a business model either in your entrepreneurial business or your bored or the company you work for and you'll be fine you'll be great
01:05:26of course very good answer the one area I had did a speech at a university to bunch of college students in I talk a little bit about it is that I had somebody come up up to me after class and really get into this question I really struggling with it wanted to give the industry and I simply said I don't care if anything goes learn how to build a loyal and trusted audience create fantastic experiences through whatever content and storytelling you create and it's in my belief is this because they're so few people that have done this if you can do this effectively around photography or a butterfly catching or whatever you do and you go in and you're looking for a job in content marketing and you say I built an audience in a done this in this I've done it and here's my audience development strategy and here's my contact creations regimented
01:06:26calendar and all that sucks you've done all the pieces Parts maybe not all strict as strategic as you'd like but you've figured it all out there's nobody that's not going to hire you that's right absolutely pay your way to whatever job you want you just said something it's really important this really that that's that's really critical here which is recognized the content marketing is not an industry it's it's whatever industry you're in whatever expertise you want to build build that experts in content marketing but there are there are few people that you know content marketing is a small space is a very small space trust me I'm in there I can tell you it's a small space expertise in your audience and it's it's the equivalent of saying you know the product marketing industry there's no such thing as the product marketing industry right there there is product marketing is a skill and a talent in a method
01:07:26what do you bring to whatever it is you do so go find whatever it is you do your passion about where you want to build an audience and take the approach the methodology of content marketing into that and make it your own that's the that's the way to get started and that's the you know that's the more complex way of saying something that you just said very simply which is just go build an audience still build an audience for you and you'll be over acquire the master skills you need to do it for someone else when I say that it's so unsatisfying to as an answer cuz I want to meet the meet the person or do the one thing and but man it is a visit the best way to go because when I was talking to this gentleman I said there's two things that are going to happen you're going to understand this approach so well that you'll be able to write your ticket for any job that you want or you're going to create an audience it's so valuable you can monetize it itself and and you create
01:08:26the business that's right there's an old that's the problem people don't want to hear that they want the Quick Fix and what they should do they should Hustle No it didn't know it's better than that they should have had you need to grow packet yes they did the growth hack the hustle then growth hack the hustle that's what that's what his problem is is that there's 24 hours in a day they're not working 25 if they work 25 hours a day that's ready to make it hashtag hashtag now the hustle that's what I'm going to do we're going to grow tack the hustle
01:09:14alright okay what you got I got my last question for you
01:09:19if you could go back in time and give your 2010 or 2009 whenever is the right year
01:09:29some advice that the 2017-2018 jopa Latinos today what advice would you give yourself oh my God that's so easy I would I buy Bitcoin I was hoping for something a little more days. So basically you're talk to other than buying Bitcoin with your wood and all right so you're saying I'm going to go back to 2009-2010
01:10:05we got to remember that all you know this but 2009 is when I almost quit I know that's that's my point. That's that's that's what I that's where I'm going for for those of you
01:10:18here's what I would I'm going to change your question I would have gone back to 2007 when I started the business and launched what you'll became the eHarmony for Content marketing I thought the idea the product was amazing of course I did every entrepreneur thinks that. I remember I said when she's a baby this idea of publishing and I and I I fell in love with the idea of that product and if I had if I would go back now I would say
01:11:04fall in love with your audience
01:11:06don't fall in love with your product almost all entrepreneurs and companies continue to do we change our products and services if we just focus on the audience in the audience needs and you do what you know will be basically ended up doing a Content marketing Institute is just building that that audience and listen to that audience failed audience will tell you what they will ultimately by I mean amazon.com got to be the best example in the world of that happening on him not focusing on selling books online young had a bigger vision for that and he had so much information about how people were buying what they wanted to buy an inside surround that that he created the and I think is the most dominant company in the world right now of Amazon it's on a smaller scale you know I'm just trying to survive a two small kids my wife stayed at home at the time I had always been talking about I want to go start a business
01:12:03and I had this idea and finally great I'm going to do that and spent two and a half years trying to build out this idea that had failed financials from the start and it was just it was a lucky we came out and content marketing Institute even exist today and the only the only reason it does
01:12:26is that I did not I was not going to fail like all that means lots of failures along the way but I was going to make this work and I hate I mean every time and I got to this point in 2009 when the writing was on the wall and the eHarmony model was not going to work I don't feel sorry for myself and just saw everyone and it was just about everyone that said I was crazy for leaving a six-figure + job executive position at a publishing company with great benefits to Lochte Darmody forgot that marketing and it's just whether it's patients or grit or whatever the case says so got through that figure it out okay we are building an audience we have a little bit of an audience what do they want and ended up so they wanted Consulting they want to training they wanted advisory
01:13:26they wanted networking around other people going to the same challenges and that's kind of marketing Institute content marketing World cheap constant officer all those Brands rebuild out of just simply listening to the audience and not focusing on here's a great product you can buy and interrupting my way to get there for that model so anyways long story short I would go back and say first of all don't don't don't fall in love with your product what is it what's the who's the audience your targeting what's the specific audience what's the message that you want to be or persuade them about what what do you want it what what information do you want to get to them that's going to change their live in a positive way and focus on that and once you get to know those people so well I'll bend you can launch some products and services that would have saved probably 18 to 24 months of misery it in and almost just not I was looking for a job
01:14:26for a job cuz I'm like this is not going to work thank God you didn't find one God I just I got right you didn't find one that time was just a that was a tough time I remember you and I were talking on the phone I remember those days
01:14:46and you what you needed to say dude that you harm anything it's got to go let me tell you the show come to show business kids business I have one I have one last question but I all right for you guys and I'm going to come by there's two questions but they're both relevant to each other and I'm alright buying it but I want you to respond with your Southern Houston accent all right that's what I messed my request so what I would like you to do it's a very serious question to the question is there's two part question did Muhammad a some imma fix it taste on all right so cuz this you know when I get into this accident at this after I have for probably you know I don't know for 5 Tequilas so it
01:15:46it's you heard me you heard Buford to get in I've heard the real I've heard you you heard the real well you know so
01:15:55no I'm at as much as it pains me and my heart to say that this is what this is the way it is I do not believe the Cowboys are going to make the make the playoffs this year I do not believe they will I believe they are going to lose at least one more game which is going to put them out of wild card contention and that will be and that will be all as they say of that the Browns record next year will be something like 6 and 10 I'm going to guess so 6 and 10 what are you smoking I think you're going to have a hell of a year next year but I think it's going to be great I think you're going to have I think you're going to find yourself a new you just came back from smoking the weed I think he's going to be good I think he's going to be awesome and go find a lot of success with this new general manager I think you're going to be great thank you for indulging
01:16:55you're well that ladies and Gentlemen Just so you know what what is this have like 4 or 5 Tequilas if the greatest accent ever had the content is even better that it really it really comes out that was good for you I didn't know I just know that the last one I counted wrong see I can't I can't count them from Texas I can't count alright so here's the last one for you are
01:17:27other than people so this is sort of borrowing from your rule of the of the way you ask me the first question so other than the people which I know the answer to that other than the people of content marketing Institute what will be the part of your current job that you're going to miss the most what I'm looking for here is what function of your job are you going to miss the most
01:17:49the best is a easy one to the best part of my job yeah wherever I go anywhere in the world and sometimes it happens in email but it's not the same as when you get it face-to-face and somebody comes up to you and said you changed their life thank you oh my God that's it it said we saw that in the master class to her how many people and then a Content marketing world and they say things like I wouldn't have my job if it wasn't for you I'd be lost I mean I but we've had things like people are suicidal and they didn't know where to go and just think I'll catch you don't think this is like this is not this is not life-or-death but it affects when people find their passion and they share with you man that is that is special that is special so that's that's the thing that I will miss and went I've had the opportunity to travel to
01:18:49a lot of places around the world and and I'll never that stuff never gets old and you where I'm at in the world I love I love to hear people tell them to tell me that whatever stupid thing that you and I have done and there have been a lot of a lot of them there's been that that we've done something special for them and we never even met him until that time so that was that's all that's my short answer and that's the correct besides the people nice that would be the answer nice well what do you think mr. I mean normally at this part of the show we say what what are you going to do next week but really the answer to that is if you're not going to do much and you and I wait for you sort of said our goodbyes on the podcast already but yeah I mean become really good friends and that we were friends before
01:19:49and from talking every week I believe we've just become really good friends and you know I do consider you my brother and sister having to go through this journey with you has been you and by the way you being so understanding about all this as well cuz I know this hasn't you know sir to put you in a tough place and so I thank you for for letting me off easy with that one as well but it's suspended it's been a it's been a joy I'll be able to do it and there's a thing even if I'm glad people were listening don't get me wrong I'm glad we had sponsors those are very very good things but you and I just as easily could have gotten the phone every we can talk about the stuff that it wouldn't matter because it's been you know as the as the guy and the guy in the love actually says it's been an hour or so and you know it's it's been fantastic wonderful and yes a a delightful excuse to see
01:20:49with you every week but but but other than that to spend it has been an honor it's been a pleasure it's been a joy and yeah regardless I mean the audience made it great
01:21:02but regardless of that it's it it's been it's been one of the troop you know Adventures of my life I'm not letting you off easy this is this is a this is an extraordinary really hard but at the same time extraordinary Li easy thing to do because it's just all it is is closing 1 chapter and opening another
01:21:22well thank you sir and on that note do you want to send us off on that note we have one other thing for you folks and that is this
01:21:38back in 2016 call transitions he says more than what happens in the middle
01:21:51opening things closing them tearing off the bandage losing something meeting someone new getting on the airplane getting off of it
01:22:03being greeted elections ending a feud
01:22:09we mistakenly spend most of our time thinking about working on and measuring the in-between Parts imagining that this is the meat of it the important work in fact humans remember the transition because it's moments of change and possibility and trepidation that light us up
01:22:29I've had the immense pleasure of being part of over 200 Productions of this old marketing with my friend brother Robert Rose
01:22:38each one of those episodes provided some learning for me and hopefully for you but of all those episodes I'll remember the decision to launch and produce the first episode and the one you just listen to our last episode the most these two moments will always stick out the special in my mind so is Seth right is it the beginnings and endings that matter
01:23:07to grow and ultimately to reach the goals we set we need to make big decisions I hear and see this everyday with the listeners of this podcast we need to fire an agency or contact Creator or Hiring Agency or content creator sometimes we need to kill off one program in order for another one to flourish sometimes we need to take a stand for what we believe in and sometimes we have to walk away
01:23:33sitting in the middle like stasis is always the easiest course it's also the most dangerous in my experience that's where most of the universe lives in the middle
01:23:47safe and without risk but also without broke
01:23:53the short-term pain of the decision usually ends up being worth it because of that amazing possibility of making something truly great
01:24:02is ending this podcast a good decision at this time in this place I think so but we could be wrong
01:24:10is Amelia Earhart so famously said the most difficult thing is the decision to act Robert and I are acting by closing this chapter called this old marketing why is it Frank Herbert says there is no real ending it's just the place where you stop the story with your help Robert and I have told our story but this is not the end now it's your turn to turn the page and hopefully take a little bit of this podcast with you
01:24:45thank you for being part of this amazing journey with us and now it's your story to continue to tell tell it well so we'll meet again not sure quite where then I don't know just weather
01:25:06you already know my heart so long till then it's time for saying goodbye
01:25:31real me. Not sure if I want to smoke
01:25:57it's time
01:26:26you're still here
01:26:31it's over
01:26:35go home

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