Full Transcript for ADHD, perfectionism and burnout: Nuances, boundaries and lived experience, with Kate Moryoussef

in different ways. So for me, that, that, that, the biggest thing about all of these conversations is always about awareness. It's about awareness. It's about understanding the nuances, allowing ourselves the space to give ourselves that compassion. so yeah, I would say I do get a lot of messages. Not all of them I, I respond to 'cause I'm just not able to. But the ones that I read or try and get back to and the women in my community, and definitely at the event. We're all just brilliant, brilliant women like, incredible women, women. I would sit happily and have like a long kind of coffee chat meal with, and that we've all got a lot in common. It's just, I guess it shows up in different ways. so I think that's quite a convoluted way of answering your question. [00:06:47] Michaela: I mean, I think that's kind of how that's gonna be how it is, right? We, I was really thought, thought about that when you asked me questions on your podcast, that we have so much awareness of these things that we ask questions that are basically long meandering of thoughts because that's how. I will probably be asking questions like that. I'll try to keep them more concise, but I'm not expecting anyone who is Neuro Virgin who comes on my podcast to give concise answers because there's complexity. Right. And we have our own neuro virgin, so, so one of the things I hear then is that sense of that community, that people, when they're late diagnosed, coming together and then finding something to explain why they've had that experience, the hormonal rollercoaster they've been on, and actually feeling less alone, feeling seen, feeling validated, feeling heard. Is that something that you kind of see as a theme in the messages you get as well? [00:07:39] Kate: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, what, I guess I've just, because I've just done this in person event, it was my first ever one. and there was about 55 women there, and it was an all day event and I tried to make it as sort of community focused, focused as possible. So we had this, this room, it wasn't enormous. and I could have fitted a lot more people in if I'd sort of done theater style. But I made a decision that I was gonna put round tables. 'cause the theme I heard when I was asking the women the questions, you know, when they were booking is, what do you want out of this? And a lot of them said they wanted the connection, they wanted to meet other like-minded women. They wanted to feel part of a community. They wanted to feel seen, heard and validated. And they wanted to just sort of be in a room that felt like they could breathe. So the round tables went in much to the event space, sort of dismay. 'cause I was like, right, try and organize it so it doesn't feel too crammed. But we've got enough people and it's like we opened the windows, we put the lighting down and it was kind of like try to do everything I would want out of an event. And you know, from my first event, I think it ticked most of the boxes. And that is what, you know, I just, I sensed in the room it was just like, oh, yes, it's scary and uncomfortable coming to an event on your own. A lot of women did come with a partner or a parent or a child or whatever, like an a grownup child, but they definitely enjoyed, I put, I, I did table plans, so I was thinking, right, how can I make this even less uncomfortable? I was like, let's put people on table plans. They don't have to worry. They can go straight to a table. And those tables connected. and at one point, at the, it was the very end of the event and everyone was packing up and there was one table, they, none of them had known each other before and they were literally, I was walking out the door, packing up, taking everything to my car, and they were still on the round table chatting away. And they literally said to me, I found my people. I found my people. And you know, it's from all over the uk. They came. So this is what I'm sensing, I'm sensing this desperate need of women to feel belonging. and I think because we've been online for so long, [00:09:41] Michaela: Hmm. [00:09:42] Kate: almost like, no, we need to be in the room now with people. We need to meet people. and that's why I did it. So even though it was, it was exhausting and I was probably like, fit for nothing for about 10 days after, [00:09:55] Michaela: Yeah. [00:09:56] Kate: definitely wanna do it again. [00:09:58] Michaela: And I think seeing you share about it, it's, it resonates with a lot of the things I've seen as well, having been online, even before COVID. It's, it's something that gives. Convenience, availability, we can reach people in hard to reach areas and, you know, busy lifestyles, people can then fit their therapy or coaching or workshops in between other things. But there is something that happens when we come into the room, especially for us, neurodivergent, like A DHD or a DHD women feeling the vibe of being in the room with other people. I hear that when I run events as well, and it's, it's just really powerful. I've just booked to run my first, residential retreat in Sweden for a DD women. [00:10:39] Kate: Amazing. [00:10:39] Michaela: again, it's really important that to think about how we continue to hold space for others that way without depleting ourselves. And what you, what explained there about how you were good for nothing for 10 days. I guess that's feeding back into some of the questions I have around how you navigate, you know, protecting your own capacity, knowing what you know about burnout, what do you do, what, what is non-negotiable for UK to prioritize so that you don't burn out. [00:11:05] Kate: Yeah, I mean, listen, burnout is always there for me because I have that passion and I have that drive and I have those ideas. and before I guess I really understood myself, I would just lead with that, with that sort of like very, if you wanna call it like eastern sort of philosophy, like the very sort of fire energy. But I know I need a

huge amount of grounding. I need calm, I need quiet time, I need decompression. I need nature, I need space. I need to breathe. I need to have my feet on the floor. I need to be in water. And so that's not always that easy when you have a brain that wants to keep, go, go going. and I do constantly feel like I'm always at, odds with myself a little bit. I kind of do feel like there's a, you know. I have like different alter egos. but what I've learned over the years is to give myself the opportunity to push forward when I do feel that creative drive and when I do feel that quite, a strong call to pull back and to quieten everything down to honor that and not to criticize myself. [00:12:13] Michaela: Mm [00:12:13] Kate: I couldn't work out why I had the ebbs and the flows and the, you know, the peaks and the troughs and I couldn't work out there why? There was no, the, the consistency wasn't there. and so I, there would be like sort of a lot of shame around that, but now I just recognize that if I'm gonna do an event like that, I'm gonna have to push for two weeks to get things over the line. It was quite stressful, you know, people were dropping out and getting spaces and last minute changes and all the things that I wanted to make the event great. But. It was kind of a delayed reaction. I was sort of still riding on the adrenaline for about two days and then I crashed. and I kind of knew that was gonna happen, so I'd already prepared myself. I, my calendar, my diary the week after, so I kind of knew myself. I went write, not putting anything big in [00:13:00] Michaela: Hmm. [00:13:01] Kate: no podcast interviews, nothing big that's gonna tax me until at least the Thursday after. So I had at least five days, six days to recover. but realistically, I probably should have sort of cleared my whole diary for a week and just only done the bare essentials that I needed to do. Obviously I had my kids as well, so I had to do everything for them. Pull back where I could. So that is what I try and sort of help people with, is to recognize those patterns, learn from the, the, the difficulties that we've had and put into place different strategies so we can push where we need to and then pull back to calm and regulate our nervous systems. [00:13:42] Michaela: And it makes sense that, you know, the A DHD, women's Wellbeing Podcast and the a ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit to have the strategies to recognize what helps me to ground and, you know, down-regulate. especially for us when we're in perimenopause, we've already have, you know, a heightened state of stress, on top of the stress response that is a DHD with the hormonal fluctuations if you still have a cycle, et cetera. So there's, there's a lot to consider there. And I wonder if, if those, those insights, those learnings you, you mentioned self-awareness, that self-awareness you have about your own energy and your patterns in fluctuations. Do they come from expensive lessons? Did you learn that the hard

way? [00:14:27] Kate: I think my whole life has been one expensive lesson. Yes. I think that's a great way of putting it. yeah, I think the, the me before the diagnosis, there was a very different internal narrative. So there would be a lot of blame and shame and judgment. why can't you do this and why aren't you doing it like that? And why don't you, you know, there was just lots of why, why, why, why can't you just, and then now I understand myself. I understand my nervous system. I'm still learning about it. And like you say, you know, perimenopause does. Kind of derail you even more so, those hormonal scaffolding that I kind of relied on a little bit more before perimenopause. Now thankfully, I'm, I'm on HRT and so that's sort of stabilized a bit more now, but I, I see the biggest priority my whole entire life is my nervous system regulation because every, that is the sca, that's the foundations and that's what scaffolds my whole life. So when that is wobbly and when that is compromised, I can't work properly. my mental health, is challenged, you know, parenting my relationship with my husband, so. It is an expensive way to live because, and, and, you know, we talk about this with a DHD, women in Careers. There's all sorts of statistics of we earn less, we are behind in our careers, all different things because sadly, our mental health has to often come first, you know, brilliant women who are having to resign because of burnout. people having to, you know, almost live more live and work in a more simple way because maybe that really, high kind of, wage career, whatever that is, it's just too compromising in your nervous system. So it's not easy, especially when you wanna do a lot and you've, you've got lots of ideas, but then you've got a nervous system that is constantly screaming at you to slow down and calm down. And so I, I deal with that. It's something that I, I'm constantly in flux [00:16:27] Michaela: Yeah, and it's, it's not an easy one because we feel that we deal with it fine until we no longer are dealing with it. Fine. I see that a lot in my community as well, when chronic pain hits or autoimmune conditions or, you know, other ways that the body is saying actually enough, I, you can't keep going like this. And another aspect of why, obviously, HD women tend to be as compromised in their careers or, less, it's also because of, we often have care caregiving for NeuroD virgin children, that might have additional needs as well. And I, I see so many women coming, going to business like you and I do, because that's the only way we can control and influence our working environment, our working hours, the capacity we have to do the thing we love without the burnout. So. Kind of makes sense that more of us go into freelance careers or, entrepreneurship. So have you, what have you noticed, has helped you to do that since you've been working for yourself compared to your previous career before you did [00:17:25] Kate: Hmm. Yeah. So I always had this essence of me, even back in the very early days of not wanting someone else to dictate my working hours. There was always a pushback, and I didn't like someone telling me that I had to work at a weekend, or I had to work late, or there was a, I could feel it in my body. I was like, Ooh, there's a deep resistance to being told what to do, which we know is part of, you know, this oppositional defiance, whatever you wanna call it, just a sensitivity. It kind of weaves into different areas of our life, but I didn't, what's that? [00:18:01] Michaela: rebellion. [00:18:02] Kate: Yes, rebellion. I don't wanna be told what to do. I wanna do it on my own terms, in my own way, in my own hours. However, I would also consider myself a workaholic. I love, love, love what I do, but sometimes it is at the detriment of my. Conversations, my health not being present. I've got kids that all come home from school at different times, so sometimes I have to stop working for a good chunk of the afternoon to pick kids up, take them to different places, take them to an activity, and at like five, six o'clock, I think I've still got two hours worth of work to do. And so I have to sort of sit down, do my emails, and it, it looks like I'm just on my phone scrolling and I'm not being present, but I just don't wanna feel like I'm behind. So I'm, I, I do always have to. Recognize there is a part of me that although I'm not working for someone else, I do have a drive to sometimes work in, in the evening or do things that I shouldn't really be doing 'cause they're not good for my nervous system. but I would much prefer that than someone telling me where I have to be, what I have to do, what work environment I've got to work in. Because that is, yeah, that's just not, and, and also working for yourself is hard because you are having to make those decisions and pivot and it hit hit walls and all different things. So it's not perfect. But I do think it is a better alternative for many of us who [00:19:28] Michaela: hmm. [00:19:28] Kate: to have the freedom to kind of, you know, weave around in our careers a little bit. [00:19:34] Michaela: Yeah. And having that freedom and that flexibility so that you can. Adaptively meet the demands and flexibility. So I talk about, because I specialize working with female entrepreneurs with A DHD, and we talk about the freedom and the flexibility, but also the fun because otherwise if, if you come from a corporate career and then move into being, you know, self-employed, working for yourself, if you then bring the same toxic environment or the horrible boss with you having been, then your own horrible boss, is that sense of would I, would I demand this, from someone who worked for me? Would I tell my team member to go and do another two hours of work after they've got the kids dinners, et cetera. So that's the kind of that compassion, reframing as well, like, actually, do I need to do this? And what do, what does my body really

need? And that's, that's a difficult one, right? We, I feel like it's ongoing permission slips and ongoing reminders on a daily basis, to, to say that this is what I need. How have you, how would you see in the women that you support in terms of. That ability to sense what you need and express what you need. [00:20:40] Kate: Yeah, I mean, I, I like to see myself as, as part of this community, 'cause I understand very deeply, so a lot of the women that are in my community and who I speak to, and sometimes coach is very much like, I understand where, where you're coming from. I understand because I'm, I'm either you right now or me you, you know, and then, you know, a couple of steps behind or I see how I was, you know, a few years ago. so it is very much sort of just, we're all working progress, perfectionism. I think many of us relate to this sort of perfectionist, you know, tendencies and traits. I see that myself as well. and I, and I think what you said then about the permission slip, it is. Constantly saying it's okay, like you've done enough for today. Like, you don't need to do anymore. You're doing enough. And, and I have to give myself those reminders as well. Like I constantly, because I think there's, there is definitely part of me that I would just keep pushing, pushing, pushing, 'cause I never feel like I'm doing enough. 'cause I can feel, I have a brain that is always like, well you could just do a little bit more. Or there's just that thing you need to do, or that reply or that document, or dah, dah, dah. But I've got better pushing back and pulling back and saying, it's not necessary. Like you deserve to rest. You are worthy of just slowing down. Or you can take that day off. That's why you work for yourself. So yeah, it's important We. [00:22:09] Michaela: ' cause. It is, and having those permission slips constantly when I guess we've been shaped by a society that also fed us with passages that we weren't enough and they do things fast enough, or we did things too much or you were rushing or slow down or speed up or whatever it might have been. So it's, it's kind of understandable that we have that I'm not enough voice going on. And having that reminder, like you said, softening it by saying, no, it is okay. You can give yourself that permission. I literally, I, I can post songs in the car. it's, it's a thing. I think I'm entering a, a flow state and then I sing things when I'm driving. [00:22:46] Kate: And on the way home from the gym today I wrote a song about like taking rest because you have done enough. And sometimes I sing those. Wow. [00:22:54] Michaela: in my, on my retreats or home retreats or when I do assessments, because that way of processing song and the lyrics makes it more memorable. So sometimes just singing it out loud, singing it to yourself, or singing it to your kids [00:23:07] Kate: Mm-hmm. [00:23:08] Michaela: can then feed that loop back in again. Like, oh, it's, I'm not telling myself off. I'm sending a little snippet that says that it's okay rest, you know, or to be alone or recharge your batteries, whatever it might be. Not saying I'm gonna put it on Spotify, but, you know, whatever helps you remember things. So I wonder, you know, have you seen this trend about like, what's the most unhinged thing you do because of your A DHD or something? So, I wonder what's the most unhinged thing you do to support your a adhd? [00:23:36] Kate: Oh, to support. [00:23:38] Michaela: Yeah. Like what's, what are the most, the most unhinged, odd thing you've got in place that you know, like, oh, this sounds crazy, but it's, it works. What is it? [00:23:46] Kate: I speak out loud to myself a lot, and I talk to myself. It's almost like I'm my own coach. and my kids always laugh at me because they're like, you do know you're speaking out loud. and I tend to do it when I struggle to process things. So I really struggle to read and process a recipe. And I hate, I hate baking. So everything I do I cook is always like freehand intuitive. I love cooking. I guess that's kind of like a creative outlet for me. But if you ask me to do, like a sweet or a dessert or something, I have to use a recipe. And so I literally go, you know, read the recipe and I read it again, read the, the process and all of that. but I also do that with things like I just said before, you know, giving myself that permission, like, it's okay, Kate. you know, and one of my little tips is. Similar to what you said about the singing is that you can record voice notes for yourself and you can play those voice notes when you really need them. Or like, a voice note on your, on your WhatsApp and just play it however, is the easiest way to access that kind of, the, those permissions of what you think you're gonna really need. Record that, that reminder or that sort of affirmational, acknowledgement or validation, whatever that is, and have them there ready to go, even, you know, save them on your notes. and, and I do think that is very powerful, but sometimes I'm just like, Kate, actually what I do, 'cause I know, you know, I'm an EFT practitioner and sometimes if things have gone really south, I'll take my dog for a walk and I'll be in like the forest and I'll just tap and talk while I'm walking and give myself like a. A session. and that's really helpful because sometimes, you know, just to sit down and do it doesn't, doesn't happen for me, but I'll sort of tap and I'll walk and I'll say the things that need to be said. sometimes I have a little cry, get it out and I do always feel better. so yes, those, I would call those quite unhinged actually. [00:25:36] Michaela: I guess if someone saw you in the woods, they might wonder, [00:25:40] Kate: Yeah. [00:25:41] Michaela: I guess it's sort of, we've entered our, you know, in being in our fuck it forties, there's, there's less, there's few fewer fucks given about looking unhinged and more just needing to be well, I just need to be well, so I do, I I do agree

with that. And interesting. Very similar, about the cooking and the baking. And I, I've done sort of workshops around helping a years cook with more ease and often it is that thing of cooking things that don't require a recipe and baking is more precise. Right. It's more of a chemical reaction. So you can't necessarily, well, I can't actually bake muffins without. Measuring anything, I just wax stuff in. but that is the, the bit of spontaneity, the strength of a DD, of actually, can I be creative? Can I be free flowing? [00:26:23] Kate: Hmm. [00:26:23] Michaela: And also at the same time, we need the structure. How, how do you work around that sort of, you know, the paradox of needing the structure but resisting the structure because don't tell me what to do. [00:26:35] Kate: Yeah, like I do, I definitely need structure and I do have structure, structure in my week. you know, I've got those things that don't move, you know, whether it's a yoga class or the gym or maybe a walk with a friend. I have like different workshops and CPD stuff that I like to do, and I like to sort of do con constant learning. and I, obviously I have structure, you know, I've podcasts, sort of books in, but. It gets to a point where I'll look at my diary and be like, Ooh, I'm too hemmed in. I'm too hemmed in here. Something needs to go. So my poor va, I get, she gets an email, I go, right, please, can you move that, reschedule this because I need to see some, area, you know, if I just wanna just free flow or I just wanna go for a long walk, or I just needed to breathe for a little bit. So it, it's this fine balance I think that neurodivergent people really struggle with of having that balance of knowing that we need that structure, but having the flexibility to. To, to shift where we can and to move. And you know, sometimes I might just wanna say yes to something and I'll look at my diary and be like, I can't do anything for six weeks and that doesn't work for me. and I wanna be able to say yes to a friend or do and see, I see an event in two weeks and be like, oh, that sounds amazing. I really wanna do that. And, and to me that's important to lean into, into those things. Sometimes it's not possible, but I really, really do value having flexibility in my schedule because that is part of us. I do think that's like the fun part of us where we get creative and we meet people and ideas germinate and com, you know, we, we communicate with each other and think, oh, let's do something. And so yeah, we do need, we do need that balance for sure. [00:28:27] Michaela: yeah. And that's, like you said, it's one of the strengths of of A DHD and the brilliance you mentioned earlier of how many women in our communities are utterly brilliant, and I'm sure we'll solve the energy crisis one day, and the things we can do if we are properly supported and structured and someone else going behind to pick up the pieces of the stuff, I don't wanna tidy away essentially. So someone going ahead of

me and behind me and I can do amazing things. I wonder, given that, that that brilliance that, you know. The bright minds that we have, the lateral thinking we have. Are you then a person who thinks of a DHD as the superpower or as a challenge or a blessing and a curse? You know what? Where do you stand in that, in that dilemma? Dilemma in the discussion about A DHD as a superpower? [00:29:16] Kate: Yeah, well, I'm definitely not a sup. I don't sit in that, you know, in that band. I, I just see stuff with nuance, like, yes, it's, it makes me creative. It makes me enthusiastic, fun, but it also. Depletes me, exhausts me, makes me feel very low sometimes it makes me think that I can't do anything and it does feel like you're on a rollercoaster the whole time. And I don't actually like rollercoasters, like I'm not the A DHD that get likes theme parks. I'm hate theme parks. I want to feel a bit more kind of stable. But what I would hate is that creative, fun part of me, the part of me that just has like brainwaves and ideas and loves having new conversations and connections, and innovating. Like I would hate for that to be taken away. So I guess you have to take the good with the bad. I always see it as like if we lived, and I know many people do live in countries where the weather is good the whole time, I then appreciate good weather. And I don't particularly love the weather in England, but at least I know that when the sun comes out, everyone's like in a good mood and it's so exciting and it's the best place to live. So I would kind of like it there to be a, a bit more balance with the weather, but I guess I sort of see that with a DHD is that we do have to sometimes take a bit of a hit with, with the stuff, but I say this all with caveat that there has to be awareness around this. So when we don't have the awareness and we are living life blindfolded, we don't understand on neurodivergence, we don't understand what's driving it. And we've got to remember the very, very, very, very severe mental health challenges, difficulties, hardships, all of that, that comes with, undiagnosed A DHD and autism. but when we start understanding ourselves and we get that compassion and we get that, you know, acknowledgement and recognition and the support, then we start kind of building a new ecosystem for ourselves. so. Yeah, I, it's, you just, I don't know. You just have to accept who we are, the brains that we've been given, the wiring, the nervous system, and try and f facilitate, like I say, an ecosystem that works best for us, knowing that's never gonna be perfect. [00:31:36] Michaela: No, because no ecosystem ever will be perfect, but it's about, like I said, sort of feeding the right nutrients into that soil and maybe even removing yourself from that soil, to somewhere else entirely moving from a corporate to self-employment, et cetera, if that's gonna better serve you. But it sounds like you stand in the sort of, it's not either or? It's both and it's both brilliant and really, really annoying in equal measure. And almost like this, this two sides of the same coin. So the same, you know, the idea sparking the visionary side of things can also be the same thing that makes me too impulsive and get preoccupied by side quests instead of doing the thing I'm supposed to be doing. So I often find that this sort of is the, there's pros and the cons to the same trait within the a, DD, [00:32:21] Kate: Yeah, [00:32:21] Michaela: how it manifests itself. And I see that when I do assessments as well of, of trying to see has this been been a strength for you or has it been a challenge? And often it's been both. [00:32:30] Kate: it is never just one. It's never one or the other. I mean, I always think, you know, you look at people throughout history and there's people who are just like brilliant geniuses and musical talents or science or this or that, but there's always another side of them that we don't really know much about their personal lives. you know, I was reading about Albert Einstein and how brilliant he was and clearly very neurodivergent and apparently his house was a complete mess. He obviously struggled in his personal relationships. His, I think he was married a few times and there was difficulties with his children. I think there was addiction, addictive tendencies going on. we see that with like Mozart and all of that brilliant, brilliant in one area. [00:33:11] Michaela: Hmm. [00:33:12] Kate: Very, very difficult challenges in another area. And that's way, way before anyone understood any of this. [00:33:18] Michaela: Hmm. [00:33:19] Kate: sort of dampen down the brilliance, but we also need to find a way where the brilliance can coexist alongside, you know, the, the support, the health, the compassion, you know, because I think it would be weird if a brilliant person was also highly domesticated, you know, brilliant listener, someone very present, you know, it is, it's too difficult to be all of that, all of that. And many of us put that pressure on ourselves to show up in the world and tick every single box. And, you know, it's not, it's just not possible. And I used to think I should be ticking every single box, which is sort of that perfectionism piece. I just couldn't work out why. As a woman, I should be X, Y, and Z and I should be doing this and I should be contributing financially and I should be a stay at home mom and I [00:34:09] Michaela: Hmm. [00:34:09] Kate: be innovating. And being a brilliant friend, daughter, sister, there it was. It was kind of almost like I couldn't work out why I wasn't being all of those things because I should be all those things. And I thought, oh, the people were doing it so well, so why couldn't I do it so well? And wisdom and all sorts of other things have, you know, showed me otherwise. [00:34:31] Michaela: I softened that a bit and I guess sort of the coming into perimenopause where hormonally speaking, the things you were maybe able to do 'cause

of that perfectionistic drive and ambition you could do and maybe in your twenties can no longer do because the brain fog won't allow you, you know, you get more easily depleted or, you know, when we pre and post parenthood, I see that so much in, in the work I do around perfectionism, that it was possible to do all the things and be all the things when you, at work when you didn't have kids. 'cause you could crash into the weekend, [00:35:03] Kate: Yes. [00:35:04] Michaela: when, where is the rest coming when you then have neurodivergent kids with additional needs on the weekend. So it then says something needs to go, [00:35:13] Kate: Mm. [00:35:13] Michaela: letting go of something. And what do you think you've let go of to try to find more of that balance to kind of try to keep the burnout at bay? [00:35:22] Kate: often it's arrangements. Often it's saying no to things that want, that potentially might be really good for my career. going to bed early. Sometimes it's not fun. You have to just do the nos. And I think I've definitely got better with my boundaries. So beforehand, I used to just be the yes person, the people pleaser, the, oh, I don't wanna upset someone, or I definitely should be doing that. So I'm just gonna push through. and I do think there's this sort of perimenopausal piece of I can't do that anymore. Like my body is literally saying to me, say no, say no. And the version of me maybe a few years ago would've just been like, yes. And they'd be like, what the hell have I done? And then, then dread it and then make myself ill about it. But I'd still show up and then I'd be exhausted. Whereas now I say no more. Maybe disappoint people more. sometimes disappoint myself. But I realize that if I feel that deep call to say no, like it's just sitting badly in my body. And I'd have learned to listen to my body more as well. It's okay to make space because maybe something better is, you know, around the horizon or a different opportunity or a different situation. whereas before there was a big part of me that was like fomo. Like I, I've gotta say yes to everything just in case. Just in case. and I couldn't, you know, people used to say, listen to your body, like what's your body telling? I'd be like, what do you mean? I just have this brain that was just screaming at me, like over overtaking any bodily sensation. [00:36:52] Michaela: Hmm mm. [00:36:53] Kate: and now I listen to that little nudge in my, in my neck or my shoulder or my chest or the stomach, and I'd be like, oh, okay, that's telling me that [00:37:04] Michaela: mm. [00:37:04] Kate: feel right anymore. so yes, I would say the yes is the no say no more than the yes. [00:37:11] Michaela: Yeah. 'cause it's too much of a good thing can still be too much. Right? Even if we feel this is exciting and especially when we feel it's exciting and passionate work we do, I see that so much in, in entrepreneurs who just wanna change the world. I mean, I think we have the ability to do that. The, the impact that you've had through your book and through the podcast and the listenership that you've built that is making impact. But we have to make sure that we have good positive impact in the world without the negative impact on ourselves. 'cause otherwise, what's the point? If you know, you are your brand, you are the author of your book, and if you aren't, if you are not able to show up day to day, you can't keep doing the, the impact and then change in the world. So it's that sense of too much of a good thing is still too much. So it's really difficult to find that balance. It sounds like you've practiced boundaries, softening the people pleasing, saying no to others, but also saying no to ourselves. I think those, those self boundaries, like go to bed early. There are some of some of the hardest things I teach my clients. What, what are the kind of self boundaries that you have now for yourself that may not be as fun, but you know, you feel well when you do them. [00:38:20] Kate: Definitely around sleep. I definitely see myself how things change when I haven't been sleeping properly, if I have been staying up later, just because I think, you know, many women resonate is that they don't feel like they've had any time to themselves. and I think it's so important to have that time, but it's kind of like, oh, but then we've still got to wake up early to get the kids to school and, and all of [00:38:43] Michaela: Hmm. [00:38:44] Kate: that. So I kind of do spend a lot of time trying to find that balance of sleep, but time just to decompress and just sit on the couch and watch something, you know, on tv. It is, it's, it's finding, you know, I, I'm one of those ADHDers that gets sucked into my phone, you know, really gets sucked in and I have to put my phone away and just be like, no. or if I go on a walk, no, you don't have to listen to a podcast. You don't have to learn anymore. You don't have to do anymore. Just go on a walk and just breathe. And. Connect back in. And I find that quite hard because there's a part of me that is always like, well, you just do a bit more, just learn a bit more. Just kind of, and, and this, this content, driven society that we are living in is telling us that we need to just listen to one more podcast, one more video. you know, it's consuming more than creating and it's very hard, to say no to the constant consumption that is, that is out there. so yeah, we are in a society that's feeding the A DHD sort of dopamine seeking that many of us have. And it's not easy to put a boundary in place, but it's just recognizing it. And one of those things is my phone has to go away. It has to go away. [00:40:00] Michaela: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Is the, the noise that comes from that. And it's kind of coming into one of the misconceptions around A DHD that we have poor self-discipline. It's not about not being disciplined with the phone, it's the, the dopamine, like the stimulation is so vast that it's difficult

to say no to it. So having systems in place, you know, we don't have phones in the bedroom ever. They left downstairs. And often if my husband is saying he's gonna go upstairs to bed, he knows that I have to, like, I hand him the phone and he goes to put it somewhere. And I use App Lockers, I use lots of things. I've just bought something called Brick that I've yet to set up because setting something up is hard, but that's something that you can literally tap the phone and then everything is blocked [00:40:45] Kate: Wow. [00:40:46] Michaela: you can have this physical little brick hidden away in a cupboard. So it's actually quite a lot of steps [00:40:50] Kate: Mm. [00:40:51] Michaela: to go and tap it to unblock it again. Sounds like I'm promoting something that I don't even know if it's good, but yeah, I think. We are not the only ones because there is a shift around this where there is a pushback where anecdotally I hear people say, I just want to have a landline again. I just wish I had a dumb phone. I want a brick phone. because we feel like this is not good for us. And in this debate of A DHD is caused by social media. A DH ADHD is caused by being on our phone, phone addiction. That's obviously not true. What do you say when people ask those kind of questions? So, aren't we just living in a society that, where everyone is a bit a DHD now? [00:41:29] Kate: Yeah. Well, I hate that. I do hate that a lot. but what I do say, and I, I've said this sort of openly on different podcasts and stuff, is that it doesn't cause a DHD, but it really doesn't help our A DHD. And if you have a DHD and you have a propensity to sort of those, those tendencies and those dopamine seeking or, you know, addictive behaviors, a phone is the easiest way to, to sort of fulfill that. And whether it's social media, it's gambling. You see that in kids now, teenagers, it's rife online gambling, porn shopping. it's just there in our hands normalized with very few kind of like, friction, you know, friction in place. Unless we put the friction in place, we have to sort of actively put that because we're up against. Giants, you know, social media, tech giants who want to take that from us, who are desperate to make money from us, and, and, and our kids. And it sickens me 'cause I've got an 11-year-old daughter who's just got a phone. and it makes me feel sick to my stomach that I can see there's a part of her that's being pulled, sucked in. And as a parent, I have to pull back. You know, I've got older teenagers and I've had to do it with all of them, but it's, they, they get to an age, the teenagers where they sort of have a bit of self-control and they, they start recognizing after a few years of being online, they kind of think, oh, right, I'm just gonna put my phone away and just watch normal, you know, Netflix, whatever. whereas the younger generation, they don't have that yet, so they just get sucked in and it's very, very upsetting and, and hard. But, and especially if

you've got a neurodivergent child who. May just like it from a sensory perspective, uses this phone as like, you know, self-soothing or just gets sucked into a hyper focus. you know, an adult can use it like that. And with awareness, you know, and a child with a child and they don't have that awareness, it's scary and it's very, very difficult for parents to, to deal with. [00:43:33] Michaela: Yeah, I agree. I agree. There's the sense of, I mean, we, we have the debate about the Minecraft gamer videos watching someone else do gaming because it's, it is so fast. It is so full of dopamine. And, you know, the best thing we, we can do is to try to sort of notice how do you feel before and after? How do you feel after you watch that kind of content versus when you watched, you know, a movie with your, with your family? How do you feel like, when is it a social thing? When is it about you actually needing to zone out you? 'cause you need to regulate. What is it that you're needing then? Is that, can you also get that by, go up upstairs, sitting under your weighted blanket with a book? But it's, it's difficult. 'cause there's more steps to that, right? Like you say, the, the convenience culture can be both good and bad. It can be an easy way in to regulate. But it's having, you know, unintended consequences long term. It's not actually regulating you 'cause it's not switching your brain off. And I find that as well, it feels like I've microwaved my brain sometimes when I've sat staring at phones. So they just, they just need to go. I hadn't planned to get into screens, but yeah, that's absolutely one of the more complicated things about A DHD, isn't it? The, the more sort of the dopamine seeking and the addictive behaviors. You touched upon this earlier as well about when we talked about the, the both and the, the darker side of A DHD [00:44:52] Kate: Hmm. [00:44:53] Michaela: of the mental health challenges. And for you, the coaching work you do, how do you think about that? Where, where does sort of coaching support A DHD women and when is it thinking about, well actually this is deeper mental health problems, trauma, where they need psychology input or therapy. How do you, how do you think about that in your work? [00:45:13] Kate: So I don't do that much one-to-one coaching anymore. just because for me that was, it was a big sort of, as much as I love working one-to-one, it was also sort of depleting a lot of my energy alongside all the other things I was trying to do. And, you know, there was an intention of, right, how can I get this information out further afield? [00:45:33] Michaela: And I had to prioritize. but when I do do one-to-one coaching, I am very careful about recognizing where therapy,Hmm. [00:45:43] Kate: is very much, you know, part of the, the, the needs to be part of the protocol, especially hormones. and so there's only, so I, I'm a firm, firm, believe in coaching. I think coaching is an amazing tool to help you move from the current situation forwards. I think therapy is amazing to be able to process the past. I think the combination of both is very helpful. I think the combination of medication movement, hormones. It's a full holistic approach. And I don't think it's just, just coaching or just medication. and I talk about this a lot in my, in the book, you know, that's why it's sort of like a, a toolkit because there's so many different parts of this sort of healing and this processing and moving forwards with an A DHD sort of diagnosis and awareness that if I just went for a walk every day and that was the only thing I did for a, my A DHD, that is helpful. But I also need to hydrate and I need to, decompress and I need to take supplements and my hormones and sometimes I do need therapy and do need coaching. So there's, there's a lot to it. And go back to what you said at the beginning, it's like, it's expensive. It's expensive, and we have to recognize that piece, you know, with privilege because. You know, there's a lot of people who can't afford all the support that many people talk about. again, one of the reasons why I've been doing this podcast for so long is to get this out there, this knowledge more accessible. It's completely free on the podcast. The [00:47:13] Michaela: Mm [00:47:14] Kate: bought on Amazon for 12 pounds accessible. My membership highly accessible. I want this to be accessible. I don't want it to be, and I think coaching is fantastic, but a lot of people can't afford my one-to-one coaching 'cause it has a bit more high end. and so we do need this information more accessible. We need ways for people to not feel like they're up against barriers when they do get this awareness. And, and a lot of women I work with go, well, can I still do this if I've not had the diagnosis? And I was like, yes. You don't need an official. 2000 pound private diagnosis, if you know for sure that you are neurodivergent, you know, many times they paid for their kids and they can't afford to pay for themselves. I see that all the time. or they're on a wait list in the NHS and it's four years and think, right, when, what can I do in four years? I'm not just gonna sit. It's like, no, you can do so much. so I'm a big believer that we have to make this as accessible as possible, which is yeah. Why, why the podcast is still going after all this time. [00:48:17] Michaela: And the, the why is the, the key word there, isn't it? Because that connects to your purpose and your mission. And why am I, why am I doing this? And as neurodivergent people, we always need to connect to the why. Otherwise, this doesn't make sense. and I certainly agree I couldn't have kept running my podcasts since August, 2020 if I didn't believe that it does something. Is that being able to provide a free resource that is easily accessible all around the world and know full well that most people who listen to my podcast will never be able to work with me one-to-one. And even even within the a d,

ADHD assessments, the people, although I do them for a living, there are people who come my way where actually, let's look at your budget. Do you most want to have some tools of being able to support yourself, develop more compassion, or do you wanna know for sure? So we cannot do that. Understanding the compassionate formulation of who you are and why you, you operate like this, be through the assessment. And sometimes it's a really tough choice of one or the other. When they cannot afford both. so absolutely self-identification is very valid in order to get the right support, especially when we got, you know, readily available descriptions of what the a d ADHD experience could be like. That said, sometimes people get that deeper understanding when they've had a diagnosis. What was that like for you, like before? I mean, when you, clearly you knew about your tendency to be a workaholic, the teetering on the age of burnout, perfectionistic, maybe anxiety, knowing how your capacity was impacted, but then age 40, you got your diagnosis. What happened post-diagnosis that you think you couldn't have had, had you not had it like through a proper assessment? [00:49:58] Kate: Yeah, like, listen, I, I do, I am an advocate of a, a diagnosis because it gives us that validation. But weirdly, I didn't have any of these words. So I had my diagnosis in 2020. and that was because my daughter was, was going through the diagnosis, at the same time. And I just saw all of that in myself. And at that time it was COVID and it was all online and it was pretty accessible, a private diagnosis. And I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna do it because I just wanna know. And I, I really related to everything that she'd been diagnosed with. And, but it's only been the, the process afterwards that, and I guess because of what I do and the, and all the conversations that I've been having that I can see all the nuances. [00:50:44] Michaela: Hmm. [00:50:45] Kate: know, like if someone turned around to me. Six years ago, seven years ago, said, are you a perfectionist? They'd be like, oh no, the house is a bit of a mess. And sometimes I'll wear the same jeans for three days on the run. And all things like that. Like, I wouldn't have considered myself a perfectionist or a people pleaser or a rebel or a need for this or that. And, but it's understanding it through a different lens, of what really drives me. And I think that di the diagnosis of breaking it all down and the psychiatrist asking me all those questions and then asking the questions that sometimes no one's ever asked you before. And I'd be like, oh, yeah, do, do that. Or, yeah, that my anxiety is out of control. I just thought I was a bit of a worrier, [00:51:27] Michaela: Yeah. [00:51:27] Kate: you know? But even though I kind of knew that my internal dialogue and the constant rumination and the catastrophization that I'd constantly had, I just thought was just a li I was a little bit of a worrier even though. It was

pretty dark stuff that was going on in my brain. so I, I did get a huge, huge amount of validation from my diagnosis. Yeah. I don't wanna sort of dismiss that. [00:51:50] Michaela: No, but again, we bring in nuance to that conversation. Like I, like I said, I, I sell that and do that for a living amongst the therapy and the coaching. And yet there are times when I would've have discussed with people that maybe that's not the right thing for you right now. Maybe the most important thing is to work with what we see and support what you're struggling with. If there's a limited amount of money that you have to, to, to put into this and you're on a really long wait list, or you're still waiting for therapy through the NHS, et cetera. So sometimes we just have to be really pragmatic and doing what serves that person best in that moment. And yes, having a diagnosis can be eye-opening, not just because you get a yes or no answer, but because of how you understand and make sense of that. So yeah, I think that needs to be a lot of nuance rather than must do it this way [00:52:39] Kate: Hmm. [00:52:39] Michaela: each person's journey is so unique depending on what they've been through. so I guess that thinking about your own lived experience, how much you've been bringing. That passion into the work you do. Where do you see this area going? You know what, what are the things on, on, on the horizon within the A DHD field? [00:52:59] Kate: I mean, since I've been in this, in this world, I now, instead of just seeing a DHD, dyslexia, autism. you know, all of the, all of the just sort of different crossovers. I think we're just gonna see neurodivergence and this understanding that, everything is fluid and instead of seeing just an A DHD diagnosis and then you have to go for a separate autism diagnosis and then a separate dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, it kind of needs to all be understood because we know that all these conditions don't travel alone. you know, if someone, I kind of get a little bit upset when someone is diagnosed just with dyslexia and they go, no, no, no, they're just dyslexic. That's all it is. It's definitely not a DHD and I kind of think. There's a very high possibility that your child is not just dyslexic and to just, to then not see the other situations that they could find themselves in, whether it's with OCD, anxiety, addiction, depression, sleep issues, I kind of think we need to do better in this more kind of, holistic way of diagnosing so we get more answers. and the amount of women I've spoken to who go, I've just had my a DH ADHD diagnosis and I'm now waiting for an autism diagnosis, or vice versa. And I think we need to find a way because I think so many more people are what you'd say, or DHD, we've got traits of both in the, in the diagnoses and I, and I wonder how that's gonna play out, where there's more fluidity in the assessment and then the diagnosis that we get. I mean, I remember my eldest daughter got her a DHD diagnosis and was told she had autistic traits. And this was back in, I can't even remember, definitely like four years ago. So she had a diagnosis after one of my other daughters, and it without me need to be rude. We were all like. She's autistic, like who would've known type thing. But it was just the little nuances of the assessor asking, well, do you sometimes do this and do you find yourself doing that and does this [00:55:06] Michaela: Hmm. [00:55:07] Kate: happen? And she went, yeah, yeah. Like it's not like she knew whether she was saying yes to the A DH ADHD or the autism. It was just part of her and it was just how her neurodivergence shows up. so it's trying to find a way of not just being like, you've got this and then you've got that, and then that's it type thing. but again, I'm not a clinician. I'm not an assessor. I'm seeing it from sort of a, maybe a bigger picture and I, I dunno the details of it and how we can do that, but I am seeing a move and a shift towards that, definitely within this sort of diagnostic pathway. And I hope to see more of it. [00:55:43] Michaela: And that's exactly the, the kind of question i I asked there about, you know, what is the big picture shifts and, and, you know, changes. You, you interview a lot of experts and so do I and I guess is that us looking for those, you know, how we connecting the dots, in it's very typically neurodivergent, right? And I agree. I think there will be a lot more, neurodivergent sort of umbrella terms, of understanding more of the unique experience of A DHD and how that's very different. It's not just a ADHD plus autism, it's actually a, a different presentation in itself. And maybe there will be more overarching sensory profiling regardless of which sub diagnosis you have. It's actually. How does this show up for you then? Because otherwise you can say, oh, so you are autistic, so then you have no empathy, or Well, no, that's not true. Or you're a DHD, so you can't fo focus. Then the amount of people who come my way say, well actually I'm not sure about the a HD 'cause I can concentrate, I can focus. Yeah, but can you do it at will and for as long as you want, without any negative consequences from having focused for too long and burnt yourself out. So there's so much nuance to this. So I really appreciated this conversation of, of unpacking some of that. What are the, if we can do some sort of more rapid fire [00:56:55] Kate: Hmm. [00:56:56] Michaela: this is absolutely no, scientific background at all, but just for of fun, what's your favorite TV show that you think kind of gives a clue to you being a DHD. [00:57:08] Kate: Oh my God. I dunno how to answer that question because I watched so many different TV shows. did you give me these to prepare? Did I should looked at these? No. Okay. I'm just [00:57:20] Michaela: and it's it because I only just made, only just came up with it. [00:57:24] Kate: Ah, okay. Weirdly, I'm watching, I'm rewatching brothers and sisters

with, I dunno if you've ever watched it. It was like a 20, 20, 20 10 program with like Sally Field and Rob Lowe and Callista Flockhart and it's amazing. It's about a family, with five siblings and it's all based in California and it's kind of like quite nostalgic, but it still feels very modern. It was definitely filmed at least 18, 19 years ago. and it's a family and there's five of them, and I'm like, neurodivergent. A DHD. Definitely, you know, the mummies and I'm like looking at it, and a lot of the time, you know, they're not even talking about that because it was sort of 18 years ago, so they don't mention, but there's addiction and there's, you know, breakdowns and there's, all sorts of chaotic situations that happen. and no one's even, you know, talking about it. So I think, I think a lot of the programs that I watch, I always try and find a little, I'm like, they're definitely a DH adhd, but they're not saying it. so, but I, I, I do [00:58:21] Michaela: d coded behaviors. Yeah. [00:58:23] Kate: I do. I'm a bit, I'm a sucker for sitting on the bed with my iPad and just getting lost in a good TV program. [00:58:29] Michaela: I can add parenthood to the list and if you haven't already watched that with, it's got Lauren Graham from Gilag Girls who, you know, everyone who has watched Gilag Girls feels that she's Lauren Graham. There it is. Or Laura Lies is very A DHD coded and she's playing very similar character in parenthood. And there's, again, siblings, four siblings together and a lot of neurodivergence, coded behaviors. And also they do discuss autism is, again, a little bit old, so they talked about Asperger's rather than autism. It's quite beautiful on how some of the things come up, like the social exclusion of a child who is different and what happens when they then find one person they can connect with who really understands them. And yeah, it's a beautiful, compassionate show. So that's not at all where, plan to go today, but for any bit of shits and giggles at the end. if you were gonna say, yes or no to something, how can you decide beforehand if you think it's worth it? Do you listen mostly to the logical reasons or do you listen mostly to the gut intuition and instinct? [00:59:31] Kate: I have, I have learned now that I need to take a beat, just take a pause before I say yes or no. And there's a part of me that sees an email and goes, oh yeah, that sounds great. I'm to say, yes. the problem is if I don't respond there and then it gets lost and I forget, But I have started listening to those bodily cues more than the part of my brain that will be like, Ooh, that sounds like a good opportunity. or, no, that sounds scary. I, I've sort of try and drop into my body a little bit more and just be like, Hmm, do I wanna do that? What's that gonna, how's that gonna make me feel? Do I wanna go and stay in London for the night? Am I gonna have to get home on a train really late that night? And I, I try and do both. I try and sort of listen to the logic, but mostly listen to the feeling in my body, which I've been honing for a little while. [01:00:21] Michaela: So again, practice gives progress in that sense. And I wonder, before I ask you to give a final sort takeaway, I also wanna read out something to you after you've done that. So I ask all the listeners, or sorry, all the, all the guests to give a permission to the listeners or a pressure they wanna take off them. What would it be? What permission or pressure do you wanna lift? [01:00:44] Kate: Off the [01:00:45] Michaela: Mm-hmm. [01:00:47] Kate: listeners. it's okay that you've done enough, you're doing enough. And whatever you've done today is enough and you don't need to do anymore. and just to let yourself rest when it's, when you get to the end of the day and you think you should have done more, just tell yourself you've done enough and you are enough. that's what I would say. [01:01:11] Michaela: That's beautiful. So it's a really good reminder. One of those we should just put on our, on our fridge on a daily basis. And the final thing is I wanted to read out something to you because when I run my in-person event, Golder, which is a very small one, I ask all the women to write a little slip, a little sort of permission slip to another woman who might come that way. And I picked this one. Give yourself the time. You might be pleasantly surprised at what you get from it. You will of course, learn useful new things. You might also realize how incredible and special you already are. [01:01:45] Kate: Oh, I love that. That's lovely. A nice thing. Thank you. [01:01:51] Michaela: As someone who's leading the way in the field doing a lot of things to give to others, I thought it would be lovely to wrap things off with giving something to you as well. So thank you so much for being a great guest and for having been a great host when you interviewed me. And if anyone wants to connect further with you, what's the best way to connect with you. [01:02:10] Kate: Yeah, if you just go to my website, a adhd, women's wellbeing.co.uk, everything is on there. All the different ways to work with me and resources, and the book, the podcast, the community, everything's on, on my website, so hopefully you'll find what you need from, from there. [01:02:28] Michaela: Brilliant. Thank you so much again, Kate, and I look forward to seeing you again in person soon. [01:02:32] Kate: Yes. Thank you, McKayla. That was great. [01:02:35] Michaela: Thank you so much for listening to the end of this podcast episode, and if you are interested in listening more to Kate's episode with me, I've popped that in the show notes. And if you are also interested in hearing more about the retreat I mentioned, I've put the link to that as well in the show notes. And at the moment, we only have four spaces left for the 11th to the 14th of June in Sweden, my home country. So I'll pop that in the show notes and more importantly, because it's coming up sooner, we have the next Golden event, which is on the 15th of May in London, hosted by me, and it's a small, intimate group of me and nine other women. Where we sit together, where we talk about how we find permission to pause, how we create more purpose without the burnout, and how we give ourselves the time and the energy so that we can play and be that wilder, full of sparkle kind of version of ourselves that we know we can be when we are fully resourced, supported, and well in ourselves. So that's following the Pause purpose play format that I talk about on this podcast. So if you want to grab a ticket for Golden on the 15th of May in London, head to the show notes and I'll pop the link in there. If you found this episode really enlightening. Please do share it to other women, to other people who are on the waiting list, radiation assessment perhaps, and really want to understand themselves better. Share it to anyone who's maybe been recently diagnosed, or anyone who you think is a perfectionistic, people pleaser who constantly goes into burnout episodes and not sure why, but they're full of bright ideas and are a amazing person to be with when they're not in the middle of a burnout episode. So basically, do share this episode, and until I speak to you next time, do take care yourself.