ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode of Origin Stories was recorded live in San Francisco as part of the Bay Area Science Festival. It was the first of The Leakey Foundation and the Baumann Foundation’s new “Being Human” event series. Our speaker was Robert Sapolsky, a professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University and a MacArthur “Genius” Fellow. He gave a fascinating and funny talk about human behavior and the ways we are the same as, and different from, other animals.

You can hear more from Dr. Sapolsky on the Inquiring Minds podcast. Host Indre Viskontas interviewed Sapolsky about his work and his thoughts on our prospects as a species. You can find Inquiring Minds on iTunes and at motherjones.com/inquiringminds

This episode is part of the Being Human initiative of The Leakey Foundation and the Baumann Foundation. leakeyfoundation.org/beinghuman

English
United States

TRANSCRIPT

00:00:06this is the origin stories the leaky foundation podcast I'm Meredith Johnson we have a special episode for you today and it's sort of an experiment so we'd love your feedback I'll tell you how to get in touch at the end of the episode in October as part of
00:00:22the bay area science festival leaky foundation and the barman foundation hosted a live event called being human our speaker was Robert Sapolsky suppose he is a renowned professor of biology and neurology at Stanford University over the past thirty years he divided his time between the lab where he
00:00:42studies how stress hormones can damage the brain and in East Africa where he studies the impact of chronic stress on the health of baboons he is the author of several best selling books including a primates memoir and why zebras don't get ulcers here's Robert Sapolsky live on stage
00:00:59at public works in San Francisco okay I've heard sort of a dual career over the years %HESITATION half a neurobiologist half a primatologist I spend about half my time more living in a lab and mucking around with neurons and sticking genes in them as such and then about
00:01:24half my time studying baboons in a national park in East Africa and if you spend enough time sort of going back and forth between the two eventually you begin to look at humans fairly strangely they they really to take on a different quality mean you you obviously wonder
00:01:40about everybody's in her transmitter levels but you you look at other guys and you wonder if they're if they're canines are longer than yours and you usually conclude that they are or you you spent a lot of time looking at people's rear ends and calculating like how much
00:01:57anesthetic you would need to dart them but what I what I thought I would talk about tonight is sort of if you spend time studying the brain bases of behavior the evolutionary basis all after while it's really a challenge this ultimately this question of thinking about humans are
00:02:19we just another primate are we just a collection of neurons where to play a place us in the biological world so I thought I would sort of give somewhat of an overview of where we fit in and the answer is we keep being just like every other species
00:02:35out there into you look a little bit closer what we'll see here it is as I present this material this sort of three basic challenges and the first one is recognizing the domains in which there's nothing fancy about us whatsoever we are just like every other species out
00:02:53there some of the time challenge is the second one which is we've got the same basic wiring as everybody else out there but we humans use it in a way that is utterly bizarre and then of course the third domain where we do stuff that simply unprecedented okay
00:03:09let me give you an example of each first one you were a hamster you were female hamster and what you do is a female hamster is about every five days or so you off Hewlett that's what you do and less and less some researcher has stopped a second
00:03:26female hamster in the cage with you in which case both of you lengthen your cycles and you begin to synchronize them so that after about three weeks or so you both ovulate the same exact afternoon totally amazing this is all done with all faction ferre moons you can
00:03:44show that if you like holder hamsters no shot for three weeks she doesn't synchronized to the female stuck in her cage which to put two female hamsters together and their cycles will synchronize and less you now take a male hamster and put him into the middle of the
00:04:00cage in which case there cycles the synchronize completely it's all all factory you can prove this totally elegant don't put the mail in the cage take the mail in another cage and pump the air from his cage into their cage and the D. synchronizes their cycles it's all
00:04:17all factory and the coolest thing of all is when you put the two females together it's not random who synchronizes who the socially dominant one tends to synchronize the other so this is just like standard knowledge people have known this for ever and it works this way in
00:04:34dogs and cats hours and he exits cakes apparently you could go to a seven eleven in Iowa and buy a can of he got off your Tory synchronization spray in you can go home I have no idea why you would want to do this but you can go
00:04:50home and spray it all over your pigs and all of them will synchronize their ovulation you can do that you can do people do that people are licensed to do this is so well understood that it's like commercial spinoffs with that and the most amazing thing about of
00:05:07all is it works exactly the same way in us where it's known as the Wellesley effect named after Wellesley College all women's college paper from nineteen seventy showing how during freshman year roommates would tend to synchronize their cycles with each other it was an olfactory phenomenon they would
00:05:28synchronize their cycles in less one of them was having close intimate relations with a male which would de synchronize the cycles it's the same for mobile communication it all works the same and most cruel of all is it's not random who synchronizes who it tends to be the
00:05:46women who were more socially extroverted don enough this is well enough understood that when I was in college people would like sit around the dinner table and say when we roomed together this summer I had or synchronized by August first you know that's kind of what biologists do
00:06:04so in a setting like that what the challenges is accepting we're just like every other species out there now some of the time the challenges in the second domain and what you see there is that well let me give you an example a human ritual to humans sit
00:06:23at a table there silent they don't move they don't make eye contact they do nothing more physically taxing than every now and then one of them lists an arm and moves a piece of wood on the table and if these are two chess grandmasters in the middle of
00:06:40a tournament they are maintaining the blood pressure for hours of marathon runners and they're doing it just we've fought and that's the amazing thing with us we sit around and we activate the same physiological systems mean you sit there and you get stressed over something psychological and your
00:06:59secreting the same hormones that fish and reptiles and birds do when they're stressed and what are we doing we're thinking about ozone layers her own nose the like something completely abstract we turn on the same stress response with us we have the same old physiological wiring is every
00:07:19other mammal out there and then we use it for utterly bizarre circumstances as we'll see finally third domain there are circumstances of human behavior where there is simply no animal precedent now let me give you an example here shocking example you have a couple they come home from
00:07:39work at the end of the day they talk they have dinner they talked they go to bed they have sex they talk before sleep the next day they do the same exact thing they come home from work they talk they eat they talk they go to bed to
00:07:51have sex they talked a force they do the same thing every night for thirty days in a row hippos would be repulsed by this hardly any other species have non reproductive sex and nobody else talks about it afterward and in that regard we are totally unprecedented in those
00:08:11domains you want to make sense of us as a species there is simply no animal equivalent so as we see these various X. here that's going to be our challenge is recognizing which categories were falling it now what I'll be doing is going through a whole bunch of
00:08:27domains and showing all the areas in which their huge to be things that were just unique to humans and it's not so unique anymore into you look closer starting off with aggression like every National Geographic special used to sort of finish off about how we're the only species
00:08:46that kills members of our own kind we're the only species that commits murder we are not the only species that kills all sorts of other animals out there kill members of their own kind they kill infants strategically they kill with Machiavellian strategic intelligence we have all sorts of
00:09:06cases of that chimpanzees have now been observed to fashion something resembling weapons out of sticks to used to hit each other we are not the only species that will kill each other we are not the only species that will do it in a constant permeating kind of way
00:09:24now this is a baboon who joined one of my troops a few weeks before and the only way to describe this guy is he had horrible political skills he was just hassling guys he had no business going anywhere near one evening coalition of six males gang up on
00:09:41him and this is what was left in the morning and in my thirty years of studying baboons the leading cause of death among male baboons are male baboons were not the only species that kills were not the only species that kills in an organized way these are chimpanzees
00:09:58carrying out what is called a border patrol they're all from the same group they've gotten in a very agitated state and they're off patrolling the border of their territory and if they encounter a mail from the neighborhood group they will kill him this is planned organized violence it
00:10:18has been documented in a number of times now the males of one group of chance have a radic heated every single member male member of the neighboring group and expanded their territory this is virtually the definition by you and standards of genocide killing somebody not for who they
00:10:37are which simply for what group they belong to were not the only species that does that were not the only species that's capable of deep unconscious aggressive biased against the vans fascinating example of this if you ever want to take a totally terrifying test takes something called the
00:10:58implicit association test is this ruling and psychological tests that reveals every unspoken prejudiced and biased that you have going for you because it's impossible for this test here's how the test works suppose you have a horrible ugly vicious prejudice against trolls you just have something in for trolls
00:11:21and you think they're simply inferior to humans so you were given this task computer screen where up flash a bunch of pictures of other humans are trolls and you're instructed if its human press this button on the right if it's a troll press this button on the left
00:11:36or a series of words with either very positive or negative connotations if it's positive press this button negative press and then it comes in a combination you have to see if it's a troll on the right or this kind of word press this button if it's a human
00:11:52on the left and what you see is when the category of human and troll fits with the word it's an easy association flash up a human with the word trust worthy and that makes perfect sense Trav flash of malodorous with troll that makes perfect sense your reaction time
00:12:12for hitting the correct button is very short but now switch it around the other way and for a miniscule amount of time you pause and say wait a second trolls are and kind hearted that's right hit this button wait a second humans aren't that hit this button there's
00:12:31a minuscule on the scale of milliseconds delay and you do enough of these and you can tell if somebody gets a delay coming in there the scale of like a tenth of a second delay they're feeling the cognitive dissonance I don't associate these positive values with this group
00:12:50it's incredible van recently a group yelled group showed the exact same thing in rhesus monkeys they took either pictures of monkeys from the same group as the individual they were testing the mail on the left or for someone from the next group over a them a very menacing
00:13:12them so either flashing the pictures of somebody of their own group or someone from the out group or flashing up pictures of wonderful positive things for monkeys like tropical fruit or negative things spiders and then you gave them the task that they would have to process pairs and
00:13:32you would see the exact same thing when you would have discordant categories it took slightly longer the monkey was sitting there saying wait a second we're the ones that make me think of lush tropical fruit in there like yucky spiders not the other way around other species can
00:13:50even think in terms of categories of prejudice so in what ways are we special when it comes to regression we're just like any other primate in terms of our capacity to cultural somebody over the head to death were perfectly capable of doing that but we could be violent
00:14:08and all sorts of ways we can exert and no more effort than it takes to pull the trigger or release a bomb from thirty thousand feet or operated drone on the other side of the planet we can be aggressive by looking the other way and pretending we don't
00:14:25see your damning with faint praise or this concept utterly foreign to any other primates we can be passive aggressive we can do with all sorts of ways let me show you just how bizarre human violence can be in the mid nineteen sixties there was a crew in Indonesia
00:14:44that overthrew the government there and instituted a right wing dictatorship for next thirty years that came to be known as the new order and in the aftermath of this crew every vendetta every bit of revenge was carried out against every ethnic minority group accounts every sort of left
00:15:03leaning group out there death squads killed an estimated half a million people in Indonesia over the subsequent years entire villages of people would be burned to death in their hearts when death squads would come so the writer VS Naipaul was travelling through Indonesia some decades afterwards and was
00:15:22learning about the history of this whole period the troubles during that time and he kept hearing this story which was sometimes when these death squads would come to destroy the village they would bring along a traditional Indonesian gamelan orchestras what the hell's with that totally bizarre he kept
00:15:44hearing rumors about it and one day he encountered some grizzled old veteran of one of these death squads unrepentant because you just spent thirty years as a national hero and I Paul said I heard this rumor is this true and like I said over yes yes whenever we
00:16:00would go to kill everyone in the village we would bring along a gamelan orchestras it was great we would bring along the flutists and the drummers in the singers and all of that and I Paul said why would you do that and the man looked at him puzzled
00:16:14and said to make it more beautiful of course is no other primate out there that could begin to make sense of the ways in which we damage each other if we can do something like that okay the next domain theory of mine tremendously trendy subject theory of mind
00:16:35in developmental psychology when do kids first understand that other people have different information than they do typically this occurs between ages three to five or so my kids achieve theory of mind the morning of their third birthdays this is this big developmental landmark it's thought to be a
00:16:53stepping stone other individuals have different thoughts than you do precursor for they have other emotions than you to the start of empathy all of that major major developmental milestones and sort of human development but then it turns out we're not the only species that could do theory of
00:17:12mind and this is some research we're champs captive chimps would look at a human human would be in front of them and some food would be hidden in the room they couldn't see where it was hidden but the human was oriented to be able to see half the
00:17:31time though human had a bucket over their head half the time they could see the chimp was then let out and the question was with the chimp go over to the human to try to get the human to lead them to where the food was and chimps could
00:17:46do theory of mind they understood if the human had their eyes covered when the food was being hidden human doesn't know where the food is so don't bother trying to get them to show you they understood under what circumstances another human a human would have information that they
00:18:04didn't we're not the only species that this theory of mine what we are those the only species that does what's called secondary theory of mind being able to understand that this person has information that that person doesn't have and to be able to understand their interactions that way
00:18:22it's for this reason no champ could possibly know what in the hell was going on in mid summer night's dream and follow the plot of this person is in love with that person to think that they're in love with that one because they can't do the secondary theory
00:18:35of mine they wouldn't put up with the performance of it okay another domain defining defining feature of our humanness the golden rule do unto others every society has some version of that or the negative version don't do unto others as you would not have them do to you
00:18:54this is just universal this is the building blocks of human morality sense of justice all sorts of work has been done on sort of seeing this how you build whole moral systems out of reciprocity this whole area of research called game theory and game theorists have spent decades
00:19:12advising diplomats in war strategists an economist in all these sorts of game situations when do you cooperate when do you not water the strategic advantages of each sort of a what kind of thing so if you study game theory like the poster child the fruit fly of research
00:19:31in that area is a game called the prisoner's dilemma prisoners dilemma two people play at and they have some juncture where they have to decide do they cooperate with each other or do they defect and the outcome is if you both cooperate you both get a reward if
00:19:49you both defective you both stab each other in the back you both get punished what if one of you cooperate and the other stabs him in the back the cooperate or gets screwed loses a huge number of points and the individual got away with stabbing the other in
00:20:05the back gets the biggest reward of all so the game theory question becomes when do you cooperate and when not and in this famous study in the nineteen seventies this economist named Robert Axelrod what he did was he went to all his friends and explained how the prisoner's
00:20:21dilemma work and said so what would be your game strategy he went to like feel low gins and prize fighters and Nobel Peace Prize winners in all of that he took everybody strategies program them and put them in a gigantic computer and ran hundreds of thousands of generations
00:20:40of round robin tournaments against each other and one strategy kept winning and it was the simplest one in there it was a **** for tat strategy you start off by cooperating if the other player cooperates you keep cooperating if they stab you in the back one round you
00:20:58stab them in the back the next round if they've gone back to cooperating then you go back to cooperating totally simple and the words that they used were not just sort of random but they are very much thinking about sort of the meaning here **** for tat drove
00:21:14all the other strategies into extinction he was the most optimal strategy okay so this was wonderful game theorist in the economist everyone's delighted the animal behaviorists take one look at this and say whoa all sorts of social species cooperate do they use the same rule half the if
00:21:35all of this optimal strategy people want to look to see if their animals did **** for tat and yes first example vampire bats vampire bats my god drinking blood from other animals all that with a vampire bat is drinking blood all she's doing is getting food to feed
00:21:55her babies because she's not actually drinking and she storing the blood in her throat sac and she flies back to her nest and discord just the blood to feed her babies no vampire bats have an interesting social system in that a whole bunch of females will have communal
00:22:11Nast's and they feed each other's babies they have a system of justice Spain reciprocity of helping each other out with feeding now makes the bats in this colony think that one of the females is cheating she flies out of the colony catcher internet get a hold of her
00:22:29and pump up her throat sac with air and pushed her back into the colony that everybody's looking at our sink all my god look at the size of a fruit section she's got so much blood and she's not feeding My Baby and the next round nobody feeds her
00:22:44babies another example of **** for tat ng and this was with the group that you know like vampire bats there mammals but they're not all that bright to look at this in comparison this is with fish stickleback fish okay seat official tank make the guy I think his
00:23:03territory is being invaded by another fish put a mirror up against the side of the tank and you know what's happening within two seconds he's lunging out and doing territorial displays now make him think he has a coalition of partner put a second mirror in there perpendicular to
00:23:20the first so now he's in there lunging at his image anything this is great I have no idea who that guy is but while we are such a forty teams so great is is another guy invading also that's great what a team all the way moment of now
00:23:33make them think his partner's cheating on their social contract angles the mirror backward so that the images deflected backward and now he's lunging at his image anything that son of a **** here I am a blistering my lips on this class here all of that %HESITATION he's going
00:23:51forward but I see he's hanging back he's just pretending to go forward and the next time he's presented with his image he doesn't attack it he **** for tat back we're not the only species that has evolved optimal strategy of cooperation so what's unique about us we are
00:24:09the only species that can do reciprocity where we have a currency that's not the same from one individual to the next other animals can do unto others as they would have to learn to you were the only species that incorporates the fact that we have different desires and
00:24:26different reinforcers there's no other species that could look at this and understand what's going on here we have a much more complex world of reciprocity okay another domain empathy empathy it defines us like nothing else out there we were wondrous Lee empathic we help individuals and all sorts
00:24:49of settings we're not the only species with a sense of empathy wonderful work by Franz divall at Emory University looking at chimpanzees here's what he would observe two different scenarios first one some shrimp challenges a high ranking guy and gets trounced by him second scenario some chimp is
00:25:12sitting there minding his own business and high ranking guys in a bad mood and trounce a sent another words in the first case the guy asked for it he initiated this he provoked at in the second case we have an innocent bystander who's a victim of displacement aggression
00:25:29a waterfall shoes is in the hour after these events the other members of the group are far far more likely to groom the guy who was the innocent bystander than the guy who started the fight first off that showing they could understand intentionality he asked for getting pummeled
00:25:48there this guy did not and they can extend prosocial behavior much more in that direction we're not the only species who's capable of responding and passively to an underdog who's getting a lousy deal so what's special about empathy in humans our thing is we could extended over space
00:26:09and time in incredibly abstract ways consider this for example so here we have a picture of this dog whose Paul was caught in this trap it's Paul became necrotic came off this is horrifying looking at your faces right now a number of you were doing something that is
00:26:29on friend said dented you were feeling the pain of a member of another species there's hardly any other organism that can do that you were feeling the pain of this talk we could make it even more abstract than that this was the German expressionist painter friends mark yet
00:26:49another one of the painters sort of destroyed during the trench warfare of World War one this was a painting he produced around that time sheer chaos going on where we see a minute some encapsulation of warfare whatever in the center there's this animal being at the moon this
00:27:08animal absolutely terrified and this isn't a real animal it's no known species it's purple it's nothing that actually exist it's some sort of generic animal the name of the painting the fate of the animals when we look at this painting we don't feel badly for that animal we
00:27:28feel badly for the animals we could take it one step further we could look at this and say Oldknow home tree it's destroyed the poor Navi an avatar they're not real there pixels there CG idea we can sit there and we can feel deep empathy for character and
00:27:46unlawful we can we can do stuff with empathy like no other species out there the ways we can extend it the ways we can abstract okay how about another domain of human behavior and here we have the human capacity for gratification postponement it turns out uses one neuro
00:28:06transmitter that's a very central to gratification this near transmitter called dopamine dopamine is about reward cocaine works on dopamine synapses dopamine is about reward for example you take a monkey and it's in some setting in from out of nowhere you give it something wonderful you give it a
00:28:27grape or something and it secretes dopamine in these reward pathways dopamine is about reward I mean isn't about reward here's what you do now you train the monkey in this paradigm a signal comes on a light comes on and with the light means is we started one of
00:28:46those sessions where if you now work by pressing the lever ten times you will get a reward signal we started one of those sessions do the work you get a reward when does dopamine get released not when the monkey gets the reward when the signal comes on that's
00:29:05the monkey sitting there saying arm on top of this piece of cake I know how to do this this is going to be fabulous this is dopamine is not about reward it's about the anticipation of reward even more so if you block the dopamine release the monkey doesn't
00:29:24press the lever it's not just about the anticipation it's about the work you were willing to do to get at the goal directed behavior Rooney and follow up study this was a group at Cambridge Manuel from shoals or what they did was the following now what you just
00:29:41saw was a scenario of personal over ten times you get a reward do the work you get a reward actually guarantee switch things to you get the reward only about fifty percent of the time what happens to dopamine it goes through the roof like crazy because you have
00:30:00just introduced a critical words into your bio chemical pathways you've introduced the word made me and there is nothing as addictive as the word may be for generating work goal directed behaviors just driven and you look at this and this is the exact same newer chemistry that's understood
00:30:21by the engineers at home design Las Vegas the wording may be that fulcrum of I'm a total sh market never worked but today I'm feeling lucky but no it's not good but maybe today and you're just teetering on that fulcrum and you press the lever over and over
00:30:37and over because you've got dopamine coming out of your years so what's unique about us in that regard all of these studies here all the time course there on that X. axis is over the men and matter of half a minute or so what do we do with
00:30:54humans we can have a lag time between the signal and the work and the reward that lasts for ever we all know this week studied hard in school to get a good grade to get to a good college to get into a good grad school to get a
00:31:09good job to get into a good nursing home we all do this humans look at this humans can even do it where they will lever press like mad for a reward to doesn't even come until after you're dead if you have the right theology if you have that
00:31:24framework there is nothing out there in the animal world and their use of dopamine that begins to approach our capacity to do this just how long we are willing to do goal directed behavior before we get the reward at the end okay so one final domain culture culture
00:31:44used to be if you were primatologist in use of the word culture they instantly denied you tenure culture is now the trendiest word and primatology because we are not the only species that has culture the non genetic transmission of information within or across generations chimps for example known
00:32:05for decades chimps make tools chimps have been found to make twenty thirty different kinds of tools different populations of champs across Africa they use them in different ways your kids learn how to use the tools and fascinating observation the sons of females don't learn tool use anywhere near
00:32:23as well as the daughters too because the sun's just sit around they're **** around and wrestling with each other and the daughters actually like pay attention the cultural transmission is much better in that route we're not the only species that us that we're not the only species with
00:32:38a transmission of the social culture this was some of my work some years ago looking at one troop of baboons which for very complex reasons developed a culture of very low levels of aggression tremendous amounts of male male affiliation these are two adult male baboons grooming each other
00:32:58adult male baboons don't groom each other except in this true and what went on for fifteen years or so is among baboons mail security leave their home troops and transfer into their adult troop for fifteen years males who'd grown up somewhere else in the big bad world of
00:33:16normal baton behavior showed up in this troop and it took about six months to learn we don't do crap like that here and their behavior changed over that time we're not the only species that has material or social culture what's unique about us the incredible Byzantine nature of
00:33:35our culture in there there is no other species out there that could possibly imagine a ritual like this chimps would kill to be able to wear you know perhaps with fruit on them we are unique in that role okay so we've seen lots of ways here in which
00:33:53we're just like every other species into you look more closely I want to spend the last couple minutes here on one domain in which we are in that third category something absolutely unprecedented amid all the versions of that we think symbolically we have metaphor all sorts of stuff
00:34:11this one strikes me as really really significant to stated first a very abstractly we have the capacity to gain the strength to do acts by the certainty that X. cannot possibly be what do I mean by this let me make it a little bit less abstract and frame
00:34:31it in a frame work completely foreign to me Kierkegaard being a good Christian consisted being able to hold two contradictory beliefs in your head at the same time let me make it even less abstract this is a Catholic nun sister Helen Prejean on who some of you are
00:34:49probably familiar with she was the character who inspired the movie dead man walking she has spent her entire life ministering to this spiritual needs of men on death row in a maximum security prison in Louisiana some of the most frightening humans on earth and over and over over
00:35:10the years people come to her and they say why are you doing this why are you spending time with those people they are like the most horrific humans around how can you spend your there's so many people who were more deserving and her entire philosophy is built around
00:35:26two things statement the less forgivable the act the more we have to find the means to forgive it the less loveable the person the more we have to find the means to love them and as a strident atheist this strikes me as the naughtiest most irrational magnificent thing
00:35:47we are capable of the species because over and over what you see is our most exalted behaviors com when we have every reason to think you're not going to be able to make a difference that's the way it is look the other way go back to your own
00:36:03concerns and when people are capable of different devising driving the strength to do except in the certainty that X. can't be you get our most magnificent domains of moral imperatives so let me stop at this point what we see here over and over is yes yes we got
00:36:21the same neurotransmitters as every other species we're just another primate or behaviors are on a continuum when you look closely though we are doing remarkable things and when you look really closely some of the things we do our star on a single unique and of course would always
00:36:37has to be said at this point is for better or worse okay so on that point thank you for coming out this evening if you liked this episode anyone here more talks like this please let us know we're hosting live events almost every month so if you enjoyed
00:37:05this we can share all the being human talks here on origin stories that means we could have a new episode every two weeks instead of only once a month I'd love to hear your feedback so send an email to origin stories at leaky foundation dot org we'll also
00:37:21put a poll up on Facebook and we treat at origins podcasts if you want to hear more from doctor Sapolsky check out the enquiring minds podcast right after this talk was recorded enquiring minds at a fascinating interview with doctor supposed you can find that on enquiring minds a
00:37:39podcast about the place where science politics and society collide it's available on I tunes and that motherjones dot com slash enquiring minds as always origin stories is a project of the leaky foundation the leaky foundation funds research into human origins and shares that research with the public and
00:37:59more and help support science at leaky foundation dot org this episode was produced with support from the being human initiative being human is a joint initiative of the leaky foundation and the barman foundation dedicated to understanding modern life from an evolutionary perspective you can find out about upcoming
00:38:18events at leaky foundation dot org slash being human

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