Full Transcript for We Interrupt This Summer Recess at Queen's Park

00:04:39,560 the legislature, all of this. And I think that Jessica's point is bang on. 56 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:45,520 It comes out after the gravy planning. And at first, you know, we heard the 57 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:49,240 premier, all of this was unacceptable. And then we found out that there was 58 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,080 actually two different memos from the government host leader telling 59 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,080 conservative MPPs you could do this anytime there's a night setting, which wasn't 60 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,360 the rule before. But keep this quiet. Don't tell anybody about it. So in other 61 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,800 words, they were setting it up for these MPPs to basically abuse the system, use 62 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,560 this loophole as it were, even though they were abusing the loophole. And then when 63 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,840 they got caught out, premier Ford hung them out to try. They've got to at first 64 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:14,480 those are going to pay back the unacceptable amounts. Now they have to pay back 65 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,200 every penny. And it appears they were given sort of a wink, wink, green light, go 66 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,000 ahead from the government to build these things. So now you've got Tory members 67 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,520 who have been come up with thousands of dollars to pay back to taxpayers. 68 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:31,960 Tory caucus members who are really upset that they've been who himself had just, 69 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,980 isn't paying the $190,000 that it cost to buy that jet and sell it within three 70 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:40,880 days. And as I will always point out, we still have not seen receipts for that. 71 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:46,560 Only a government statement about that $190,000 was. But it really did. It just 72 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,120 plays into the public's mind, especially. And this is why the media are focusing 73 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,760 on it. The gravy playing spills right into this entitlement. I'm entitled to my 74 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:59,920 entitlements, hotel suites and lavish dinners. And then again, a little bit 75 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:02,560 further digging in a little bit further, turns out that they wasn't just 76 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,960 building the taxpayers, they're building their local writing associations. As 77 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,160 Jessica said, we knew some of this was going on. But there was a lot more 78 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,080 and apparently, you know, some out of country trips, lavish cons, all kinds 79 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,760 of things. Again, yes, most of this is from PC donors. So that's going to 80 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,600 make it hard for this government, although they're still leading the fundraising 81 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,400 campaign of all the parties. That's not going to help them with their fundraising 82 00:06:23,400

--> 00:06:26,440 when they don't find this out. But there's still taxpayers money in those 83 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,840 subsidies as well. So there's taxpayers are really getting hosed here by a 84 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:35,520 third term government that should know better. And it's so off brand, just as the 85 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,000 plane was completely off brand for Doug Ford, this is way off brand for all those 86 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,840 conservatives who always, you know, to tout fiscal conservatives and fiscal 87 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:47,480 responsibility, despite the fact that they run the largest subnational debt in the 88 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,600 world. I'll leave. There's so much we can hang on in this. I'll see you at that 89 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,120 point. Well, but Jessica, the idea here to me and you know, we were sort of 90 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:01,840 focusing on the public perception, the media intensity around these stories. And 91 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:08,520 you know, specifically at all kind of blew up around those expenses. But both of 92 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,120 you have alluded to the fact that, you know, there was this memo that came out 93 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,960 afterwards. It was leaked to the media. And I remember talking to Amory Aakens 94 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,680 a couple of months ago. And she wrote a piece in the Toronto star suggesting that 95 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,640 the FOI changes was actually going to make it all the more difficult for the 96 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,400 Ford government to keep a lid on things because you were just going to have 97 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:31,320 pissed off administrators and insiders in the caucus who were going to say, Hey, 98 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,760 you can't be doing this. And they're going to leak that document. So the, you 99 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,680 know, if MP's MP's were thought that they were being thrown under the bus, not 100 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,520 surprising that said, Hey, media, take a look at this memo. I was okay with this. 101 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:49,080 I was told I could do this. That was global that got that. And I appreciate 102 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,440 the key willingness to give us credit. We've worked on this story, but global has 103 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:57,120 led the way in getting the big scoops. They got Stan Cho, they got the insider, the 104 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,680 memos and stuff like that. They've really been killing this story and we're getting 105 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,000 really hard on it. But yeah, you're absolutely right. The way that this, that the 106 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:10,040 premier has set up these MPPs in his caucus is really tough on them. Yeah, like 107 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,080 now that we understand how this sort of evolved, it was you're allowed to do 108 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,000 this, but don't tell anybody. And then Stan Cho

used it in probably the most 109 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:22,480 egregious way because he's the closest to Queen's Park and a cabinet minister and 110 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,800 and used it so much like some of the other ones are at least like far away. They're 111 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,240 not in Toronto itself or Mrs. Saga or Brampton or somewhere where you can look like if 112 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,840 you're sitting till the night it is a ways home, probably still not justifiable, but 113 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:41,200 it's not that close as Stan Cho is. But yeah, the, they feel like they're, they must 114 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,720 feel like they're in a terrible place. They were told they could do this. They 115 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,400 did this and now they're being hung out to dry and told they have to personally pay 116 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:52,400 it back. We knew there was already some tension within the caucus over the 117 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,480 whole pension issue. I don't know if I need to go into a detailed recap here, but 118 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:02,800 this was I will, Balma was no longer a caucus chair. And so I think this must add to 119 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,320 that frustration for them. So what does this say? I mean, we're looking at the polls 120 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,880 recently, Keith and you know, again, I'll do a respected John Fraser, but the 121 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:20,080 leaderless liberals are outpolling the conservatives. And we'll get to the liberal leadership 122 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:26,800 race proper in a minute. But you combine that in terms of momentum in the polling with the 123 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,920 internal strife. And there's got to be all kinds of what the hell going on around here. Keep 124 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:37,200 you back to the wall kind of feeling in the in the Tory caucus. Well, I think for the first time, 125 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,760 we could probably see we're seeing some cracks in the Tory caucus. This leak is a good example of that. 126 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:46,640 And probably for the first time Doug Ford is thinking he might not be the man to be leading them 127 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:51,920 into the next election, which he's already boasting he's going to do. This is how leaders get tossed. 128 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:57,120 Is this kind of issue where you upset your caucus? You've given them different rules and to defend 129 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,080 yourself and publicly basically hang them out to dry. This will have consequences over the long 130 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,240 term for this PC government and for Doug Ford in particular. I think we're going to see a pivot 131 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:11,200 from Ford nation back to the Ontario progressive conservative caucus in government. While they 132 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,360 try and deal with this because Ford himself has heard his own brand with all of this. 133 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:20,800 And I think it's going to stick as we were saying earlier, it's very easy for the public to understand 134 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,280 this kind of thing and to get outraged about it. If I mentioned bevote, if you Google bevote, 135 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,800 the next two words are orange juice because she spent $16 on a glass orange juice. That woman had a 136 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:38,400 big career and it is summed up with a $16 glass of orange juice because people can relate to that 137 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:44,000 stuff and go what the hell are you billowing me that for. So this expense scandal in particular, 138 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,480 it just is so as I said off-brand for the Tories and it's going to hurt them and it hurts them in 139 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,360 their fundraising. When it gets to that point, I think you'll start to see some caucus members openly 140 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,400 grossing about Doug Ford. We haven't seen that yet. We know there's some clear upset members and 141 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:03,520 it's costing them a lot of money. In particular, the pension thing which they thought was going to be 142 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,120 great is going to cost them a lot of money. We won't get into the details on it. But if you want to buy 143 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:13,280 into that pension plan, it's expensive. And then paying back tens of thousands of dollars in some cases 144 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:18,640 of expenses that were basically approved by the government, that's a lot of money for MPPs that 145 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,480 don't make a fortune. A cabinet minister making a quarter million dollars a year, he was right to 146 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,040 lose his job as a cabinet minister and quite frankly, I think he should be able to as an MPP, but that's 147 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,200 a whole other issue because then you're going to start losing a number of caucus members if you put 148 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,960 the rule that hard and fast. Well, not to pile on, but it's worth noting for contacts and histories. 149 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:43,120 Sam chose, was it his father is a co-owner of the golf course that was in the middle of the pathway 150 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:48,640 of the 4th, 13 and they drove the 4th, 13 around it and throwing up their hands saying nothing to see 151 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:55,200 here. There was no privilege. There was no. So these stories begin to really snowball, Jess. And we'd 152 00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:01,040 look at it. It's sticky. This is really sticky. I think what we talked about when I was talking about 153 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:05,440 at the beginning that Doug Ford used to have this protection by virtue of his brand is the penny 154 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:11,840 pinching kind of guy. They'd sold it back to Rob Ford, his brother at City Hall. When something like 155 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:16,160 that shatters and

people think, you know, maybe you're not who I thought you were, I think that can be 156 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:21,520 damaging. And also to Keith's point about caucus, we talk about Canadian politics these days as like a 157 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:27,200 very centrally run, premier's office or PMO being in charge and dictating what happens as if caucus 158 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:36,560 has no power. And I think that is largely true until it isn't. If when there is a revolt, if they do 159 00:12:36,560 --> 00:12:43,360 decide to do it, that can spell the end of a leader and they do have that power if they collective, 160 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,280 they decide to use it. But we'll see if that happens in this case. 161 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:54,880 Well, I think the it's the we haven't seen that Keith so far. And when it happens to Jessica's 162 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:59,760 point, it happens pretty quickly, right? I mean, once that ball starts rolling down the hill, 163 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,560 it's pretty hard to stop it. Well, we're seeing the premier's personal 164 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:08,000 popularity down to like 21, 22%. We're seeing the time for a change, which is a killer, killer thing 165 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:13,920 for politicians up over 65 to 70%. Those are, no, again, we're two and a half, three years out from 166 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,400 election. So it's not panic time for the government. Those are very concerning situations. So 167 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:25,520 this is showing that people are no longer buying the message and and and Ford himself this fiscal 168 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,280 responsibility and claiming, you know, he's still defending the plane. He still feels slighted that 169 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,680 he's not allowed to have the plane. Talking about how, you know, when I flew to Wisconsin, you know, 170 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:38,640 I ate at McDonald's and I never build a taxpayer's appenny. Well, don't claim that and then Richard 171 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:44,080 Southern would come out and dug up and there's been $44,000 of expenses over a year's. Not much, 172 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:49,440 but not nothing. Don't claim you haven't spent a cent. When you have, you know, it's just, so there's 173 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:53,840 just again, this is not a big amount or anything, but it just adds to that sticky ball that you talked 174 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,720 about that's rolling down hill. The conservatives are in the bad spot on this. The polls are showing it. 175 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,880 The leaders of liberals, as she referred to it, I'll respect you, John Fraser, who should run for 176 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:09,360 leader, by the way. I know he's not allowed to. They're outpouring as you say the conservatives. I'm 177 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,640 not convinced that these poor, I want to see a couple more polls with the liberals that far out 178 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:17,280 in front before I'm going to say this is actually happening, but it's clear that the conservatives are 179 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,360 on the ropes at this point and their popularity is falling and this is these are the issues that 180 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,800 are sticking to them. That and the whole factor will get into it a little bit more with the 181 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,840 Billy Bishop thing, of course, but the whole him acting is premier of Toronto substituting himself 182 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,000 as mayor. I think all of that is blowing back the rest of Ontario's like just fed up with this 183 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,800 kind of stuff and the expense candle just adds into the dissatisfaction with this government. 184 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,960 Just to brand, we've said this over and over again in the last three months, we talk about how off brand, 185 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:54,800 off brand, off brand, all this has been. While people may not be paying particular attention to the 186 00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:00,320 minutiae right down on the weeds the way we watch this stuff, that's what they're hearing. They're hearing 187 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:06,240 Doug is off brand and so all of a sudden that begins to stick. One of the things that occurred to me 188 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,600 over the last three, four weeks, particularly to amplify that, was this idea that I didn't 189 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,960 know anything about it was what was coming out of the premier's mouth and I'm thinking, okay, pal, 190 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,440 you know, that's probably probably drove his comms people crazy with that because if you didn't know 191 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:29,280 what was going on, well, who the hell's in charge? This really begins to add on another, you know, 192 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:36,240 melanoma to this whole issue for them. Well, that's been his response whenever there has been 193 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:44,000 a problem that would damage that brand of his. Oh, as soon as I heard this, you could appeal me off 194 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:48,640 the roof. Like, that's what he always goes to and that has worked very well because then you believe, 195 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:54,240 okay, all right, maybe he didn't know, maybe it doesn't damage this that he is who I think he is, 196 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,480 but at a certain point you have to ask, you know, why didn't you know who's running the show if you 197 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:03,840 didn't know? Is it worse to not know or is it worse to know and have let your MPPs do this in the 198 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,120 first place? Whether I don't think he would have known, particularly exactly how many HOTIMES 199 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:15,840 stand show used the hotel room allowance, right? That would surprise me if he did. But the general, 200 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:23,120 how the expenses were being used, how the party spends its money for those ones, and

then again, 201 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,160 back to the jet because that was the sign, right? That's why it sticks to him because everyone saw 202 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:34,640 his willingness to spend a whole lot of money, taxpayer money, to make his life easier. Well, the whole 203 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:40,880 expense, the whole night setting thing where you can expense the hotel room, the logistic or the 204 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,880 reasoning was that the government needed to stop any opposition hijinks, you know, or the good 205 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,240 baby defeat the government. Well, they can't. It takes five MPPs to request a recorded vote, 206 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:56,160 which means the vote will be held the next day. So they have 80 of them. They don't need to have 207 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,720 their Toronto MPPs in the house for a late night vote that could scuttle the government, not going to 208 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:05,440 happen ever. It just can't. All they need to have is five conservatives in the house after 630 or 209 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,920 whatever, and they could prevent any vote from being held that night. So this whole premise 210 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:15,600 was bullshit to begin with. There was just no need for these Toronto members or Brantton or Mississauga 211 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:21,520 or Oshawa to be billing taxpayers for this. And we will note since 2018 since this government was 212 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:27,040 elected, no conservative or excuse me, no liberal or no Democrat has ever claimed this hotel expense. 213 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:34,880 Can I just say though that the opposition outrage around this is a little questionable 214 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:41,840 Keith because the committee that actually approves these expenses has NDP and liberal 215 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:46,400 representation on it. And they all went, they went through the numbers presumably just like everybody 216 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:52,880 else and looked at them and said, there's nothing wrong here. I guess so. I mean, I don't know how the 217 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,120 committee handled this, but clearly these expenses were approved. And it's only because there's 218 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,920 public outcry that the media dug into the global and particularly, as Jessica said, digging into 219 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,960 this, bringing it out is what's leading to the outrage. Back to the point, who's in charge of this 220 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,960 kind of stuff? Is there no one in caucus that makes sure, hey, you know, we just have a talk at 221 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,760 caucus every month or so. Just a reminder about expenses. You know, keep them legit. If you think 222 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,240 it's going to piss off your voters, it will. So don't do it. It's really that's, most of these things 223 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,200 come down to common sense in the rules. Bevote is $16 on his juice. If she just, you know, 224 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:29,280 expense the breakfast, but left hat off, I know it's in the total and that's how these things come out. 225 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,320 We get to see the actual receipts. But that can be killer for government. And I think this whole 226 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,920 expense thing, it's tied in with the gravy plane. It all just sticks together and it hurts Doug 227 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,560 Ford in particular, but it's also hurting a lot of his NPPs. There's like 20 of them involved in 228 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,640 this expense scandal. That's got to be dealt with more than one cabinet minister losing his post, 229 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:54,560 but keeping his seat in the legislature. One of the reasons that they're in this is the way they're 230 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,160 running like their legislative affairs. So that's some ways this comes back to the government 231 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,280 house leaders that we've had recently. Like they're having very, very, very short sittings because 232 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,920 that exposes them to less opposition, less media. They're trying to jam things in through quickly. 233 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,440 The way they're they're managing their time in the legislature. Legislature is to schedule a 234 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:19,360 whole lot of night sittings and then cancel them if they don't need to use them. So that's been the 235 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:25,040 reason to have the NPPs nearby. And I think maybe to pass the violent because no NPP wants to have to 236 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,360 be on standby until midnight for nights and nights and nights and a row near the end of the sitting. 237 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:35,440 So they set this up because they wanted to jam things through the legislature 238 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:41,280 quickly without a lot of scrutiny, without a lot of media questions and stuff like that. 239 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,640 Then to try to make their own caucus unhappy, it looks like they give this this privilege to them. 240 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:53,440 But it's the same as the same guys who do who plan the legislative sitting that are on that 241 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,480 committee that allowed this in the first place. And that made this happen. And Paul Klander is one 242 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,200 of them and he's one of the ones who used the privilege as well. So it really does come back to 243 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:08,640 how they derived to manage things really inside the bubble, right? At Queen's Park, the things 244 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,720 that people aren't really paying attention to that much. She'd say the most most voters don't care if 245 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:18,880 MbP user told they have to sit until midnight and whether they do or not. But that's what this comes 246 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:26,240 back to. Just for context, they got nothing on us

who've run newsrooms in terms of being on call. 247 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:31,760 I'm just saying. But when they always have a schedule, it's going to be a calendar. 248 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,360 Like if you take a look at the legislative calendar that commoted the beginning of the year and the 249 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:40,800 weeks that were slashed off of it are just stunning. And as Jessica says, the whole idea is then you 250 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:47,360 have omnibus bills remin through a very little debate or no public comment. No, it's crazy that 251 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:50,640 that they're trying to do this. And then of course, they put a sense of urgency to it because 252 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:55,440 the legislature is only sitting for a few weeks at a time. It's absolutely ridiculous. And it makes them 253 00:20:55,440 --> 00:21:00,240 completely or autos completely unaccountable because they don't have to face questions in question 254 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,080 period. I know there's a lot of drama and theater and question period, but there's a lot of actually 255 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,240 government. You can see them stumbling and fun. When they're caught in the wrong. And this is one of 256 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,960 those situations where they're really lucky not to be taking questions in the house every day on 257 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,040 every member's expenses about this stuff because I assure you the opposition parties are chartered 258 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,040 every individual one. And they're going to be coming at them when the house eventually comes back. 259 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:26,480 I believe it's it is. It's after Thanksgiving, but just before Halloween. Yeah. Yeah. 260 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,840 Well, the one's hiding in the corner and that will be the the charge, right? I mean, you don't want 261 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,160 to be in front of the legislature because you don't want to be accountable for what's what's going on. 262 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:41,200 Whether or not, you know, it's a good excuse not to have the legislature be a distraction during 263 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,680 the municipal elections and so on. So, you know, I still think Jessica the Ford government is going 264 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:54,240 to be on the ballot in so many municipalities across the province in terms of, you know, the the 265 00:21:54,240 --> 00:22:00,000 incumbents basically running against Queens Park. And certainly that will be the case here in Toronto. 266 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,280 Yeah. Toronto elections seems to be very much about Queens Park. And while the premier threatened to 267 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,200 send an army to miss a saga to make sure Bonnie Cromby isn't real acted. It turns out I don't think he's 268 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,600 going to do that anymore, but we'll see. Well, don't think for a second that that that Bonnie Cromby 269 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,240 isn't going to be waving that flag and wagon her finger at that dog Keith. I mean, I just so I 270 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,920 think that there's a whole lot of distractions and Kathleen went and had said a couple months ago. 271 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,160 She says, do you think it's crazy now? Wait a week. It in to the fall because there's going to be so 272 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:32,080 many so many things in play. I want to go back to the polls though, Keith, you know, I mean, I wish John 273 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:38,480 were here just to kind of give me give us some context. But the idea that yes, the polls are one off 274 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:43,520 maybe and we're seeing, you know, outliers, but we're seeing a trend in momentum. And the other part of 275 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:49,520 this is quiet summer. Newsrooms don't have a whole lot of, you know, you know, intensity in terms of 276 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:56,560 a way I got 15 stories. I got three stories. I don't need five. So the polls become more of an issue 277 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:02,800 in news lineups and broadcasting, right? And that kind of thing. I think people are hearing that a 278 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:09,520 lot. So the poll in and of itself is a player. And whether or not there's a trend there or not, but 279 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:15,760 what you know, is evident to most people. Wow. Doug is got soft approval numbers and the 280 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:22,000 liberals are outpolling the conservatives. What's going on there? And that starts an uncontrollable 281 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,520 conversation for the Tories. Absolutely. People are going to start thinking, hey, maybe they are 282 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,960 vulnerable or vulnerable. Then the opposition parties are going to start narrowing down in those 283 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:36,800 writings where they know the PCs are all where they can start making gains. Any bilections, we've got 284 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:43,280 three bilections coming. This is going to, you know, the Caroline Maloney, see York Southwest, 285 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:49,520 New York. Anyway, the York right in the Kellyanne. That's going to be a real test. Can they hold on to 286 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,360 that Stony Creek as well, which Hamilton, he's Stony Creek, which was Neil Lomston. Can they hold on to 287 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:59,280 that? These are going to be great tests, I think, for the government. I think the Stony Creek 288 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,400 and the seat could be a little bit more in play. But if Caroline Maloney see that they don't hold on 289 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,360 to that, that's going to be a real sign that this government's going to have to do some serious 290 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:13,440 recalculating and redirection of the big ship. But I don't know. It's hard to say at this point. 291 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:17,840 Of course, we don't get good polling numbers on the bilections. There's

just two. Instead, I think the 292 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,160 parties have much better polling. The Conservatives haven't shown any fury at about losing the 293 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,560 Maloney seat. I think they probably will be able to hold on to it. Let's get into, it was a week ago, 294 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:36,000 I guess, when we've got the first indication that the Federal liberals were going to put a pause. 295 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:46,880 I'll say that advisedly. What was going on at Billy Bishop, Jessica, and 87,000 people responded 296 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,760 to the survey that they had out there. Some extraordinary, almost nine and ten said it's a bad idea 297 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:59,680 in some form or another. I find it funny that a government of the day in Ontario is dismissing 298 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,000 that and saying, "Well, we're going to keep going with this." Because they're the ones who said, 299 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,160 "We listen to the people." Evidently, that's what the federal government has done. 300 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:15,040 They would say that the people who responded to this consultation aren't really the people. 301 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:22,640 If you're an activist or if you are involved in something like this, you're not seen as a normal person 302 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:30,000 in this sort of worldview. Political mutant, yeah. Yeah. To some extent, that is true. There's always 303 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,880 going to be a louder constituency of people. But that's a big number. 87,000. 304 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:41,680 Everybody was invited to vote. The people who were organized, I'm sure, to vote against it, 305 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:47,200 made the effort to do that. They really care about it. Other folks might slightly like to have more 306 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,720 jets at the airport, but don't care enough to come out and vote. Well, you're going to get what 307 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,080 you're going to get. If people came out to say, "No, I think that should be taken into account." 308 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,200 But no, they absolutely don't see this issue as dead, which is really interesting. I wonder how 309 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:06,880 that is going to play out. The whole port of 30 situation where the province now has a 310 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:12,960 representation and the chair is a former MPP. The federal government hasn't been appointing all the 311 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,640 members that it could be appointing. I think it was kind of sleeping on this issue until they 312 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:26,240 decided not to. I think it would be impossible for the province to force its way on this issue. 313 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:32,800 But that's not to say they might not try to find some waddling from the feds and do something 314 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:40,080 anyways. If you read that statement from the federal transportation minister, you sense waddling. 315 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:47,120 It wasn't actually all that clear and declarative. What sources said on the minister, you know, 316 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:53,520 they weren't authorized to speak to the media using air quotes. There was more declarative. We're 317 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,640 not doing it. But the official on the record statement was more like, we're not doing the bad things. 318 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:04,960 So there does need to be some wiggle room for a plan to go forward at some point that is deemed 319 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:11,440 not to be offensive to the environment or the local residents or something like that. So I understand 320 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,080 why the provinces out here saying, "Oh, we're still going forward because they're going to try 321 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:21,120 to get what they can get." Well, and getting what they can get is the land that was set to be 322 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:25,440 expropriated, all those sorts of things. There's a lot of worms all of a sudden in this can, Keith, 323 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,240 that the premier thought were lined up for in his favor. The transportation minister, Ontario's 324 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:37,040 transportation minister, described those 87,000 people as a fringe group and cited his own, 325 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,320 the province's poll showing vast majority of Ontario's or Toronto's, are all in favor of this. 326 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,680 The feds, I mean, they posted this Friday night at seven o'clock after the close of business. 327 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:58,240 It really was broadside, I think. The Conservatives in Ontario did not see this coming. The 328 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,760 Ford government didn't see this coming. I don't think. I think they were caught pretty much off-guard. 329 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,600 We see a private security out there saying, "We're going to keep going. We're not going to stop on this." 330 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,280 But of course, a few minutes after they did that, the feds then announced, "Oh, hey, 331 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:17,520 three bi-elections, including one in Beaches, he's York, in the direct flight path of any expanded jets, 332 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:22,160 that would run away, that would accommodate jets at the Toronto Island airport." So it seems 333 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,440 pretty clear the province is just getting bumped out because of federal politics here. But as you 334 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,840 just like I said, they're still fighting, they're still going ahead. And then to watch the Ontario 335 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:38,800 Transportation Minister, Sir Kerry, or Sir Korea, am I saying that? He started basically threatening 336 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,400 the feds. If this is how Prime Minister Karin Hiz gang want to deal with bigger projects, 337 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,920 I don't think they're going to get many of them built. Really, this is

Captain Canada's 338 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,440 spokesman coming out at time and saying, "When we need national unity, all the 339 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:58,480 premiums and the federal government are working together." And we right away say, "If this comes 340 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,360 together and then we have the Ford government, 11 Conservative MPPs put out the statement saying, 341 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,760 how's that high speed rail you're likened over there?" We don't think you did far enough consulting. 342 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,680 Basically, you're going to have to start over, consult all the farmers, consult a new route. 343 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,720 All of a sudden, and this was of course the core of a handshake deal we're told between the 344 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:24,400 Prime Minister and Premier Ford, where Ontario would support the allo high speed rail between Toronto 345 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,040 and Quebec City in exchange for the feds allowing the province to expand Billy Bishop Airport. 346 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,400 Apparently that deal is done. The feds just cut it unilaterally, and this is why we see the 347 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,960 province lashing out and saying they're not accepting it. They're rejecting the city's request to give 348 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,840 back the land that they expropriated, and they're going to go ahead with this expansion. So it's going 349 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,720 to be really interesting to see how this plays out. The Prime Minister had a news conference just 350 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,640 saying he was not asked, he was in Alberta, so he didn't get asked about this at all. I was watching, 351 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,800 waiting, waiting, hoping to see what he was going to say. But I think he and Ford will both go to the, 352 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,880 we have a lot of projects to work on together, and they're going to do their best without playing 353 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,920 this, but I think the province with the shot against the high speed rail is clearly saying, okay, 354 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,560 you want to play hardball? We'll play politics, we'll play hardball, screw your high speed rail. And 355 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:16,240 by the way, can I just say I've covered high speed rail announcement since I was reporting in the late 356 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:23,040 1970s. It's never going to happen. Okay, that's just my opinion, but it's just one of the great 357 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:27,680 distractions high speed rail. How many studies? There's got to be libraries full of studies on high speed 358 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:33,680 rail. Used to be between Windsor and Quebec City. Now we've shorted Toronto to Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, 359 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:39,360 Quebec City. Oh, we got to get Kingston. It was a high speed rail. Maybe someday, but it's a 360 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:45,040 politician's pipe dream and has been for decades. And as I say, I've never seen anything more than studies 361 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:52,160 done on it. Can we just then take that all of that and Jessica and look at again, the behavior and 362 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:59,200 the personality of this Ford government because if you kind of take it to another level, how should we 363 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:06,240 respond to Donald Trump's terror threats? For the most part, people are saying, just calm, stay on 364 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,280 track. We're going to be thoughtful, considerate, and we'll take action when we need to, but we're 365 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:18,880 going to do it in our own best interest for Canada. In this case, and perhaps they were, it looks like 366 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:24,000 the Ford government was caught off guard with this decision from the feds. Rather than saying, 367 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:30,160 let's just become, take our time, you know, we can figure out what the game plan is. Like Keith says, 368 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:35,440 everybody started firing spears from all quarters and there didn't seem to be any coordinated 369 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:43,280 approach to all of this. And if this is the way governments are going to react to one another and 370 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:51,120 behave in terms of how one is carrying on business, I think that there's a low tolerance rate among voters 371 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:56,160 in general and it doesn't matter what level of government it is. So this is another land mine, I think 372 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,040 for the conservatives, for sure, if this is how it's going to keep going, what do you mean we're not 373 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:06,800 going to get railed? We want rail. Now you're playing tit for tat and that's not what we elected you to do. 374 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:12,800 I think this is a, this is maybe as big a problem as some of the other, you know, the spending issues 375 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,800 because it speaks to the culture and the behavior of the personality of this government right now. 376 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:27,280 Yeah, the reaction did look a little bit emotional to did, but it wasn't cohesive either to your point. 377 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,480 Having sarcaria the transportation minister come out and make a point that's like if the 378 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,880 federal government is going to listen to these nimbis, they're not going to get anything built across 379 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,840 the country and then to turn around and have which the equivalent of the nimbis, the people who's 380 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,560 literal property is in the line of alto. Oh, you should listen to these people and maybe ask this 381 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,280 entire giant federal project. These are like logically inconsistent and complete opposites. 382 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:56,240 Maybe most people won't get that if they're just curing it as they go by, but you can't

help 383 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,960 I think like this is not a coordinated message. These are contradictory. It looks like a government 384 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,800 that's just mad that they're not getting what they're, they're want unfortunately. 385 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,280 Well, you take that to the next step where we're talking about ring of fire. You can just talk about 386 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:14,800 covering forever Keith. The idea that the province is making deals and what are we doing? Well, 387 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,640 because we're listening to the First Nations and Indigenous communities and we're getting 388 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,880 progressed on there, I can see immediately where all of a sudden, well, you're listening to the 389 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,560 Indigenous communities, but you don't listen to and this just becomes this swirl that is out of 390 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:36,240 control in a hurry. It's already there. I mean, we're seeing tit for tat politics and that's 391 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,240 as you say, it's exactly the kind of thing Canadians do not want to see. They want to see your work, 392 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:46,240 these issues out. It makes me wonder if the feds didn't even make a call to someone in Ontario and say, 393 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:51,120 "Hey, we're going to be dumping this Friday night. We know it's an issue, but bear with us or at 394 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,440 least give them time to coordinate their own response or their own message." They didn't do that. 395 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:01,040 And so we've seen the problems come back as you say, shooting themselves in both feet and the feds 396 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:06,320 at the same time. I was just, "Okay, that's a nice little high-speed rail project you got sitting 397 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,400 over there. It'd be a shame if something happened to it." I mean, literally, we're down to extorting 398 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,360 each other as governments at different levels of government. That's not what Canadians are expecting or 399 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:21,360 wanting. And especially, it just goes against what both the Prime Minister and the Premier have 400 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,920 been saying about the need to work together and to have a coordinated team-Canada approach to 401 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,160 dealing with not just with Trump, but with building our new markets and with everything, essentially, 402 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,240 big-producing Canada is supposed to be the key thing that they're all going to cooperate on. 403 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:39,200 And here we see them just basically one undercut the other for pure political reasons. It appears, 404 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,840 although again, there was an awful lot of liberals elected in Toronto who couldn't find their 405 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,600 tongue for a few weeks. They were all waiting for this to come out. We can get

into that a little bit 406 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:58,560 later. But this is all the government putting its own mouth on this. It's just an own goal type thing. 407 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,720 You don't need to fight back this way. When you do surely to God, there's a lot of back channels 408 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,520 between this sort of government and Ontario and the federal levels on so many issues that there 409 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:12,080 must have been some coordination or apparently not. I guess that's why the problem is reacting 410 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,720 like a spoiled brat, but that's exactly what you appear to see right here. 411 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:24,000 The fires, wildfires in Ontario by all accounts, there have been more fires so far this season, 412 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,920 just than we've had in recorded history in Ontario. We did some work with the Forest Product 413 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:38,800 Association of Canada a couple of years ago. And the lack of understanding, I'll say that kindly, 414 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:46,960 among whether it's politicians or just general assignment reporters and media about how the forestry 415 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:53,440 sector works is astounding to me. And considering particularly in British Columbia where it's such a 416 00:35:53,440 --> 00:36:00,720 vital part of their economy, not to say it isn't here in Ontario. But it lays bare for me the whole 417 00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:10,560 question or the issue of how we maintain, take care of, support, what is a public asset that those are our forests. 418 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:19,200 That we're so focused on fighting a fire to me is the issue where we are not spending enough time 419 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:25,520 energy and effort in terms of making sure that we mitigate the possibilities of fires to begin with. 420 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,160 And I hear too far too many people say, well, most of the forest is not reachable by roads and that's 421 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:36,400 all true. But then amount of forest that is and the amount of forest that is maintained and managed 422 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:45,440 by companies that are licensed by the Crown in this case Ontario. We'll tell you that we're not harvesting 423 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:52,320 the amount of forest that we should be harvesting. So it actually leads into the problems with forestry. 424 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,880 I know I'm going off on a tangent and it sounds like I'm really dull shit, but the problem is that's 425 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,440 the problem. People don't want to pay attention to it because it's a complicated issue and now we're 426 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:08,400 spent time fighting fires as opposed to preventing fires. The fires were maybe two weeks ago where it 427 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:13,440 was really obvious because we were all choking on them here in Toronto. The smoke is cleared literally 428 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:18,320 and

figuratively. But does this kind of thing stick to the government moving into the fall? 429 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:25,040 I think the more complicated issue that you're talking about, I had to properly manage forests so that 430 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:30,720 when there are forest fires, they don't get to this level, which I gather is the issue for a fire 431 00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:36,080 is a sort of a natural part of the cycle, but it's only in recent years that it's gotten this bad 432 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,560 and climate change is part of that. How to properly manage our forests and who's responsible 433 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:45,680 and what to do with that is a complex and important question that may fly under the radar. Like you say, 434 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:52,720 it already has the stuff that sticks more is the human cost. There are a lot of questions about the 435 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:58,160 emergency response side. So once this is already a problem, has the government done a good enough job 436 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,120 of warning people what's coming, helping the evacuees and there have been a lot of very public missteps 437 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:10,320 on that side of things in this season for a fire season. The people who had to flee by boat at the 438 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:17,120 last second, those incredible photos of the wall of fire that they left behind. There's been a lot of 439 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:24,720 missing comments from a First Nations chief that they weren't actually spoken to or consulted. 440 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:30,160 The evacuation center that the government set up that was sitting empty, it just looked like a 441 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:34,960 giant mass and not to mention Joe Dunlott's disastrous radio interview, mature staff. 442 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:43,600 I just cut it off and then it was like it's been that on that level and that is where people care about 443 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,640 it. A lot of the people I work with are based in the north and they still care very much about 444 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,120 this even if people in Toronto only care that this most no longer a problem. But there's a lot of 445 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:58,720 constituencies that is very much a problem and is it an issue for the government? Yeah, Keith, 446 00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:04,960 and I think the whole preparedness thing again, we always approach that as if it's an afterthought. 447 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:13,920 I'll do respect. There's a fire. We knew they were coming. So what would we do? And the minister's 448 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:21,360 performance in that interview, by the way, was brutal. Was brutal. The issue of her age stepping in 449 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,320 and stopping the interview. That was just embarrassing for the government. Neil Cuxell and CBC radio 450 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,720 handled that really well, but the minister looked like a fool and was made to look like a fool by her 451 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:36,960 precedent stepping in and ending a live radio interview for no good reason. The issue really seems 452 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:43,040 to boil down to we need more full-time firefighters as opposed to the seasonal firefighters and the 453 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,080 government comes back to, well, there's a lot of students that come in and on and on. There's a 454 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:52,720 well, they would take full-time work if they could get full-time work. And this government in 2019, a 455 00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:59,200 year into its mandate, cut the firefighting budget, the base budget by something like 67%. 456 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,640 Now each year that base budget is often spent way over top of it and in the last year it was more than 457 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,840 double. But the point is they cut that at the beginning of their mandate. That's where if you 458 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:14,240 hire the full-time firefighters hire more than for year-round work. What are they doing when they're 459 00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:18,000 not fighting forest fires? They're cleaning up. They're making that safer. They're doing all those 460 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,560 safety programs that we're not paying attention to, all those preventative things that could be done 461 00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:27,200 by these professionals. If they were treated as full-time firefighters, there are more. The government 462 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:33,520 has funded more full-time but not enough. And there's a large number of crews this summer 463 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:38,720 to fight these forest fires. And yet we've all even Donald Trump has noticed that, hey, these 464 00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:43,040 fires are coming more and more every year. I mean the Ontario government has been more aware of this. 465 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,160 Donald Trump doesn't know the reason yet. He won't get that far. But at least, you know, Ontario does 466 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,920 and they should have been doing, you know, instead of cutting the base funding for firefighting, 467 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,160 they should have at least left it as it was and got more full-time firefighters and started these 468 00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,960 programs of, as Donnie will tell us, back in the forest forest. Maybe not that far, but there are 469 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,040 things that can be done to help maintain and to harvest the right woods. As you say, to harvest 470 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,840 in the right spots, all of these things, it doesn't seem to be coordinated enough at all. And this is, 471 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:14,160 I think, an easy fix for a government. And again, it's an own goal. Why did you cut the fire-fighting 472 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:18,560 base budget? It's coming home to hunt. You know, it's coming home to hunt everybody in Ontario. 473 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:24,800 Windsor and Toronto, you couldn't see a

cross-detroit river to the skyline and Detroit. It's just insane. 474 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:30,160 The level and again, but not as surprised. We know it's coming more every summer. Why has there not been 475 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:34,560 more funding devoted to this and again, to do the prevention aspect ever completely? 476 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:43,040 Just for the record, my dad was a forest ranger and he went up to Shapplow in 1957 and he became a 477 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:50,400 career forester. So actually, my dad retired as the director of a forest inventory for the 478 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:55,520 Ministry of Natural Resources, which basically meant he counted the trees. David Peterson, 479 00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,240 David Peterson once got a great line about the Ministry of Natural Resources where he said 480 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:08,800 that policy is one civil servant for every tree. Well, he ended up, that's why my dad ended up 481 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:14,240 moving back up to the zoo. You remember, he decentralized the industry, right? So they're off they 482 00:42:14,240 --> 00:42:20,080 went back up to the zoo. But, you know, even then, and they didn't have the technology when my 483 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:27,280 dad was doing forestry that they have now. You know, this is 50 years ago, almost when he was at the 484 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:33,040 height of his career and looking at it and saying, we aren't paying enough attention to, you know, 485 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:38,080 the these five bullet points. And that was making sure that we're going in and harvesting properly. 486 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:41,440 And, you know, he was a scaler in the day. And that was the guy who used to go into the lumber 487 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,480 camps and actually grade the lumber that was coming out. So he was just so immersed in it. 488 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:52,640 And we grew up with that as kids. But the other part of this is we always think of, you know, 489 00:42:52,640 --> 00:43:01,280 the two by four as being the forestry industry. The other part of this is Jessica, you know, 490 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,520 one was the last time you bought a newspaper. I mean, a physical newspaper, right? And 491 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:11,440 everything's so much has gone online. We don't we're not I'm not taking notes anymore. Everything's 492 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:18,320 on my screens in the in the studio. The pulp and paper industry has just taken a die because 493 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:24,400 there's no markets there for it. So we don't seem to be taking this long term view or a 360 view 494 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:32,400 of the economy and where that plays into it. The reason that we're not harvesting enough is 495 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,440 probably because well, there's no freaking market for the scrub or the what would normally have 496 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:44,080 gone into pulp and paper. We're not addressing those issues even. This is the type of thing that you 497 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:49,760 need to have a thoughtful coordinated response that spans several ministries and several areas 498 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,760 of expertise in the economy. And that's sometimes a challenge for a government to bring these things 499 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:01,520 together. But you're right. This does call for some kind of awful planning to make sure that we're 500 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:06,160 not in the situation anymore because it's good for no one. And it's especially bad given the 501 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:11,200 reaction from the United States that what we're hearing from the president is awful and kind of 502 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:16,720 terrifying threatening tariffs for fires and this kind of reaction. And to see people in the U.S. 503 00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:24,560 believing it is also quite disconcerting that the idea that this is somehow Canada's 504 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:30,480 fault or aggression and it's something that should be taxed instead of helped with really bothered 505 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,680 me. Usually, you know, the two countries send firefighters to each other when there's a need and 506 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,960 don't tax them for having had a fire. It's bizarre and it's put a center really bad place. 507 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,480 We need to manage it. Well, if this lights a fire under the conversation, I'm happy that it 508 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:54,800 does so. And just a fun fact, Keith, 2023. You know, it was the year you guys had the big fires down 509 00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:02,880 in Nova Scotia right across the country. That year, the federal stats said that the fire flight, 510 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:10,320 sorry, the wildfires that season, coughed up more carbon emission three times the amount of carbon 511 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,760 emission that we were getting from exhaust pipes, chimneys, smoke stacks, any kind of human 512 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:21,520 generated carbon three times and we're not doing anything about it. So you just can't blame 513 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:27,280 climate change for the fires. It's causing fucking climate change. 514 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,800 Absolutely. And this is what was predicted by the scientists all along. We're there, as I say, 515 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:38,400 other than Donald Trump. Most people know that this is at least in part manmade, affecting the 516 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:43,360 climate change and that we're not doing anything. You say that other than putting out, we've got new 517 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,200 color coatings for the smoke warnings. But the most effective thing I think they've done so far. But 518 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,640 we're not really taking the steps that need to be taken overall. And even managing the wood products, 519 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,360 the whole forestry sector, who's looking for the markets? Who's doing with it? At one

point, 520 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:04,400 when Ontario was getting out of the coal burning to generate electricity, the Thunder Bay plant, 521 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,720 they didn't know what to do with that. So they decided they're going to have it converted to wood 522 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:16,000 pellets. Okay, interesting. Somehow, some reason, Ontario wood pellets were not good enough, 523 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,560 nor were Quebec. They brought them in and this is not a Beatles song. They brought them in from Norway. 524 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,680 We were burning Norwegian wood in Thunder Bay to generate electricity. 525 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:28,960 Truly the God weed enough wood between Ontario and the mills we send all our wood to in Quebec 526 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:34,960 to generate or know. So this whole forestry issue, the whole management of our forest, 527 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,280 then the wood products that come out of it, it doesn't seem to be that there's anybody in charge or 528 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,400 coordinating any sort of a plan, even with the fact that we're going to have fires again next year and 529 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,760 the year after. What's our overall plan? How can we reduce the impact of these fires? And we're not 530 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,760 seeing any, we're seeing lots of emergency measures being taken, we get more emergency response. And 531 00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:58,400 this, what about the prevention aspect that we've been talking about all along? It can be, you know, 532 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,640 there are steps to be taken that can help mitigate these fires. We're not doing them yet. And 533 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:06,080 governments are going to have to, they're going to get held accountable eventually. But right now, 534 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:11,280 what we see with this Ford government is a lot of First Nations leaders complaining that the 535 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,880 government's basically lying about being in contact with them, that they were not given proper 536 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:19,840 warnings to get out. They're asking for a public inquiry really. But because of all remote First 537 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,360 Nations in the North, they're not having the political impact that this government, if these 538 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:27,920 fires were going on in Southwestern or Southeastern Ontario, the government would be facing a lot more 539 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,480 questions every minute of the day about because these people are remote and they're flown south to 540 00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:36,640 Thunder Bay sort of thing. That's all that the people in the South here, but unless the smoke actually 541 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:42,240 comes down here. So this is a government basically tolerating the situation, spending as money to 542 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,480 transport these people every year and out at Thunder Bay hotels and even some in Niagara Falls in 543 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,520 Toronto for goodness' sake. What's that cost? Let alone the human cost to these people. Surely the 544 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,400 God we can use that money to prevent some of these fires and to keep people in their homes year 545 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:02,720 round. Yeah, the minister's comments in that as it happens interview with, "Oh, we've got lots of 546 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:08,240 hotel space. Not to worry. Everything is fine." I mean, that seemed to be the reassurance that we 547 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:14,560 were getting. By the way, I'm going to put the link to that podcast in these show notes just so 548 00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:21,600 you can hear. And for the record, I went back and I listened to several of the as it happens shows. 549 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:27,920 This is on CBC. It's run as a podcast every day. I went back and listened to about five or six of 550 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:33,680 them. And that first interview is typically 10 minutes long. Yeah. And that's what it is. So and 551 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:39,440 it can't be that anybody in the press office of the minister's office didn't know that if you're 552 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:46,640 going to be on as it happens first, it's live. And second, it runs about 10 minutes. It may be trying 553 00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,840 to be present. It may be in some of the premier's office who's in there and said, "Shut this down. I 554 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:55,280 can't see a press secretary taking that on herself." And I don't understand what Jill Dunlop didn't just say, 555 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,920 "It's okay. Let me finish the call." She herself sort of just said, "I'm fine. Let me do the only 556 00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:05,280 two minutes, whatever." She could have overruled her minutes or press secretary unless she in the room 557 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:10,480 saw as well that it was the premier's office shutting this down. I can't see a press secretary doing 558 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:17,920 that on the road. I really can't. I've seen an example on one record not live. They recorded that 559 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:26,320 interview to play as live. Right? Yeah. So, okay. So what I found that and I found that remarkable that 560 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:32,480 CBC didn't make any edits. They didn't change anything. They just let it play out which they should have. 561 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,600 So I don't know who would have been in the room monitoring that interview. Maybe with 562 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,400 there was somebody from the premier's office, but when the recording was going on, I don't know. But 563 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:49,040 all around Jessica, I just that in and of itself has sort of been indicative of how this government 564 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:55,040 has stumbled from one mistake to a crisis to a whatever, what the hell's going on. I didn't know 565 00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,000 what was going

on. And it's only been barely a month that they haven't been in session. 566 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:06,560 It's definitely the minister's responsibility there. I have seen the premier. I have seen other 567 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,520 ministers tell their press secretary's, "No, actually, I'm going to take this." I had the premier 568 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:19,920 in one case, overall, what his press secretary to answer a question from me at a US trip. It looks 569 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,200 good on the politician when they do that. When they're seen to be saying, "No, no, it's okay, 570 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,600 I need to answer this question." It's an easy win. You've got to help the interview. 571 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:37,760 I don't blame the staffer. It was the staffer who's no longer in her job, by the way. I do, I would 572 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,480 blame the minister for not handling that better. Again, we can get into a whole different conversation. 573 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:48,320 This is what it takes to get fired in the Ford government. Everything else has been going on. 574 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,640 But the minister is, again, why is the minister not being held responsible? She's had media training 575 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:56,880 for goodness' sake. There was a news conference she had a year ago that was pretty disastrous as well. 576 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:01,680 She walked away from this is a media minister who's had media training and who still couldn't just 577 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:06,560 say to her, "Two minutes left, I'll finish this interview." The questions weren't that hard, 578 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,640 while they were focusing on the fact that the First Nations chiefs were saying that they were not 579 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,520 being consulted, they were not being talked to, and they were basically calling the government liars. 580 00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:21,040 But again, a minister can respond to that. It's not the most difficult. They weren't off-site 581 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,440 questions at all. They were very on point, and the minister was just weak in not being able to 582 00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:32,400 say to her staffer, "No, no, I can handle this." Two things just before we go, Jessica, 583 00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:37,280 contract talks for teachers. What's the over and under on a strike? 584 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:44,640 Hopefully we don't get to strike some. We're several of many steps away from that at this point. 585 00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:46,880 Says a moment, too. Can you do it in your mind? 586 00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:52,800 The clear conflict, okay. We're at the argument about where we're going to argue 587 00:51:52,800 --> 00:52:01,040 certain issues of the bargaining phase officially, so that's fun. It looks like it's going to be 588 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,760 contested, very contested. It looks like it's going to drag on, but it can drag on for a very long time, 589 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:10,960 even into the next school year before we ever start really considering strike. Knock on wood. 590 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:14,160 I'd like my kids to keep going to school. Yeah, well, but they, you know, 591 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,160 the extracurriculars, all those sorts of things are going to be the sandpaper in that conversation. 592 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:27,440 And Keith, how far behind the curve is the Ford government on AI data centers? 593 00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:32,560 Who they're getting a lot of calls from municipalities for help. 594 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:38,320 Because the municipalities are getting pressured. Developers, men, they want to build a six square 595 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,960 mile data center in your little town. There's no provincial rules right now. The province is saying 596 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,880 they're working on them, but they need to come out right now. I believe it's Mississauga was it, 597 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:51,440 said they put a one year more Torream on any AI data centers. Other municipalities are going to 598 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,600 have to take similar action, but it's a huge concern. And the province as well is express 599 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,360 concerns about they want to make sure these data centers are basically running on their own 600 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:04,160 electricity. They're not, they don't try tapping into the supply and driving all our rates up. 601 00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,960 But they're not saying how that's to be done at this point. So we do need some provincial regulations. 602 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:13,280 Right now the government looks like it is kind of far behind the ball in this. The feds have 603 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:17,920 a minister of this. He's at least looking into the province. I don't know quite who's even 604 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:23,680 responsible for this at this point. Yeah, so I think this will be the sticky issues to come 605 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:29,360 as we head into Ed into the fall. Listen guys, thanks for taking time out of the mid-summer and 606 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:37,280 joining the table, Jessica. I hope you get to enjoy what has been a pretty decent summer with you 607 00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:43,360 and your kids and Keith. Have fun down east. I gather you're not getting the crazy heat and 608 00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:48,000 humidity. No, we're getting here in Upper Canada. So it's been lovely. Really nice and warm in 609 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,800 the days and cools right off at night. Loving it. There you go. Very good. Thanks guys. Take care. 610 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,320 All right, that'll do it for us. This special edition of On the Ledger Ontario Politics podcast. 611 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,800 If you like what you heard, hit the like button. If you didn't like what you heard, 612 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,680 subscribe because we'll turn your attention around sooner or the later. 613 00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:13,360 And it'll just drop into your inbox as we drop new episodes. All right, that'll do it. On the Ledger 614 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,520 Ontario Politics podcast, I'm Dave Trafford. 615 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:19,120 [Music] 616 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:25,120 We know our attention to that man behind the curtain.