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Sheryl Sandberg is synonymous with Facebook, and Silicon Valley success, and she’s the voice of "Lean In." She joins us, frank and vulnerable, together with the psychologist Adam Grant. His friendship — and his research on resilience — helped her survive the shocking death of her husband while on vacation. They share what they’ve learned about planting deep resilience in ourselves and our children, and even reclaiming joy. There is so much learning here, on facing the unimaginable when it arrives in our lives and being more practically caring towards the losses woven into lives all around us.
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00:00:00so you're something fun on being has its very own poetry radio project over the years many of our guests have brought Poland into their reflections on the mystery and meaning of life I've carried these phones with me and now we put them all in one spot for you
00:00:16to listen read and enjoy go to on being dot org slash poetry and find voices like merry Oliver Wendell berry David white and many many more again that's on being dot org slash poetry on being is brought to you by the John Templeton foundation the Templeton foundation supports
00:00:37academic research and civil dialogue on the deepest most perplexing questions facing humankind who are we why are we here and where are we going to learn more please visit Templeton dot org the Templeton foundation stay curious Sheryl Sandberg's name is synonymous with Facebook and Silicon Valley success and
00:00:59she's the voice of women today she joins us with vulnerability and frankness together with the psychologist Adam grant he was there for her after the shocking death of her young husband David Goldberg while they were on vacation in two thousand fifteen Adams friendship and his data helped Cheryl
00:01:17find her way to what deep resilience might mean for herself and her children and even daring to reclaim joy there's so much learning here for all of us for facing the unimaginable and for becoming more practically caring towards the loss that is woven into lives all around us
00:01:36at any moment when I saw people that I knew were facing real adversity I would say how are you figuring if they wanted to talk they would talk but it's so hard to bring this up well how am I okay my husband just died it's hard to get
00:01:50out of bed in the morning I don't know how to parent my children alone and I'm quite certain I'll never feel a moment of happiness again I mean that's not an answer to the question how are you but if you say to someone how are you today I
00:02:03know you are suffering if you want to talk about it I'm here then people can bring it up I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being Sheryl Sandberg is the chief operating officer of Facebook Adam grant is professor of psychology at the Wharton school of the university of
00:02:26Pennsylvania they previously written together about gender and working life now they're launching a book and a nonprofit together called option be facing adversity building resilience and finding joy I think I like to start with the two of you is to ask about the religious and spiritual background of
00:02:47your life and I've over time come to understand that phrase the spiritual background of your life as you know very expansive and if looking back you see this notion of what you understand resilience to be now in there either taught to you %HESITATION embodied you know perhaps with
00:03:06other names search Cheryl do you want to start sure on you know I was raised in kind of an odd mix of reform and Conservative Judaism I my parents kept a kosher home we celebrated Shabbat my bat mitzvah was something that I took very seriously my parents took
00:03:28very seriously on religion was something that that gave kind of a structure I think to life's the calendar holiday you know Judaism starts on a different calendar year and I I believe that the year started no around when school started in September October with Russia China and young
00:03:48keep poor and I think you know when I lost deeds and lost Dave so suddenly religion is in many ways the first place you turn because it it gives you some things you're supposed to do you know religion told us that we were supposed to sit Sheva many
00:04:04people came over to the house of religion told us how we were gonna %HESITATION perform the burial there's this I in Judaism when you on when you very someone you lower a casket into the ground and the people themselves the people closest to them shovel dirt on the
00:04:23casket and I buried my grandparents so I had done that before and in the face of something so sudden and so tragic the traditions around the burial the funeral the shot you know impossible that they were to live through I think we're actually very important very comforting because
00:04:44without them I just would have had not known what to do now that was I think she usually important because death death ushers in such nothingness such blank I thought of it as a void you know sucking you ran an hang on my chest so I could barely
00:05:01breathe and religion was something to hang on to in that void mom there's a lot there will we'll keep going with them as we move forward Adam what do you think about the roots of resilience and your child to them and if there's a spiritual way that you
00:05:21see that as I think back to my childhood I feel like there were a lot of moments where I felt like I didn't have answers to the hardest things that happened in my life like Cheryl I I remember losing my grandparents and he had not knowing where to
00:05:44turn for explanations for understanding for meaning and and you know I think in a way it's it's one of the reasons that I was I was originally so drawn to psychology I'm interested is you know I was I was trying to figure out how to how do we
00:06:02make sense of something that is impossible to really understand especially as a kid and you know it looking back and yeah I guess it was going to synagogue and and asking those kinds of questions that really you got me interested in resilience in the first place you know
00:06:22I I don't think I realized at the time but looking back a I I was constantly asking like what what happens to people after they die and you know how do we make sure that our lives are as meaningful as possible and since I think that you know
00:06:40that's in some ways that's that's a question of a god given the human condition how do we find resilience ma'am can I yes absolutely him the other place religion really matters was this period of mourning said as shallow sheen period yeah and so when Dave died the rabbi
00:06:58my rabbi in another rabbi his friend told me that the period of mourning for spouses thirty days and they're supposed to kind of have that sense of wrapping up shallow she came for a spouse and and that really led me to think about %HESITATION I was at that
00:07:16thirty days which is what led me to do that Facebook post that was a very important part of the story of my recovery and this book but again it was rooted in religion that there is religious meaning to that thirty day period I see how it it created
00:07:29a container obviously for you to mourn but also to reflect on I mean you and you wrote this stunning three sentences I have lived for thirty years and these thirty days I am thirty years fatter I feel like I am thirty years wiser yeah I mean it was
00:07:48a lot thirty day the longest the longest of my life by far and %HESITATION I was in many ways marking those days because every single one was just a victory to live through I and it wasn't just the grief right grief can be so overwhelming I felt like
00:08:07I was sucked into a void where I would never really be able to catch my breath my brother in law described it as a boot sitting on his chest but it was also the isolation because I was a very friendly easy relationships with neighbors colleagues you know when
00:08:21I drop my kids off at school I would say hi to everyone when I went to work we chat before and after meetings and that all went away after Dave died because I think people were afraid to say the wrong thing so they often said nothing at all
00:08:34near so as I moved through those days I was feeling increasingly isolated I would go to work and people just look to me like I was a ghost or a deer there they were deer in the headlights they didn't know what to say and so as that thirty
00:08:48day parade approached I read this Facebook post based on my journals which expressed how I felt and the night before I went to sleep thinking there is no way I'm posting this thing it is to ride too revealing really %HESITATION yeah no I definitely wasn't opposed it but
00:09:02then I woke up the next morning and you know my religion told me this was supposed to be kind of the end of morning and it was not and it was not going to be and and I felt so overwhelmingly awful that I thought you know what I'm
00:09:18as opposed to saying because things can get worse and it really made a difference because you know a friend of mine at work said that she'd been driving by my house not coming in she started coming in rang people at work admitted they were terrified when they saw
00:09:31me of saying the wrong thing and you know strangers posted about their experiences a woman posted from the NYC youth that she just gave birth or Chad one surviving twin and one had died and so she was struggling to find the strength to give the surviving twin it's
00:09:47a wonderful life and other people posted on them and I felt less alone people weren't walking up to me and saying how are you or and or not walking up to you because they didn't know what to sell act exactly and this book is written together %HESITATION I'm
00:10:04so happy to talk to both of you because one thing that radiates from the pages is it's not just the your co authors that you're it that your friends right that it grows out of friendship and in fact I mean Adam got on a plane and came out
00:10:18to to be with you twice %HESITATION so did not walk away %HESITATION you'd gotten to know each other together with Dave right when Dave was CEO at SurveyMonkey and and it sounds like that atoms are talking about resilience right away that you thought that this was about the
00:10:39ability could you endure this pain but the question Adam you were asking is how instead ask how you can become resilient and there's this language in the book resilience is the strength and speed of our response to adversity and we can build it it isn't about having a
00:10:57backbone it's about strengthening the muscles around our backbone such a helpful image and new yeah I guess you know for me this started when David I'd really connected ands Davis %HESITATION you know it was one of the leaders that I really looked up to but also you know
00:11:18as a husband and a father like the the kind of person that I wanted to be and so %HESITATION it was I mean it's just devastating for all of us and we got the news amber talking to my wife Alice in about it whether whether I should go
00:11:31you know might be a time that it would be difficult for people to have company and it should she said no of course you go so I flew out and said I remember I'm being at the the ship afterward and people were were starting to leave and Cheryl
00:11:46and her family and some close friends are there and and she said stay and see Cheryl's question was what do I do for my kids how do I help them and all of a sudden I felt like all these hours that I've spent %HESITATION learning about psychology about
00:12:02you know how to do it tough situations like there was a purpose of those hours all of a sudden and yeah maybe I had some knowledge that I could share that yeah that would help our kids there and so we we started talking about what we know about
00:12:14resilience where does it come from and how do you how do you help kids find strength in the just the the worst of situations you know Dave give me a lot of amazing things and one of the things Dave gave me was Adam I mean Dave had a
00:12:28lot of speakers at SurveyMonkey Adam is the only one here provided over for dinner faint we were very protective of family dinner but he said this guy's incredible I invited him over for dinner I don't if they never did that and Adam and I started talking about his
00:12:41work and I asked him you know have you ever cut your data by gender and we started talking about gender and we started writing together we wrote for New York times pieces together before Dave died and when Dave died I mean I was in a total side and
00:12:54invite anyone to the funeral you know people came and I was so relieved Adam was there and I just looked at him and said what do I do to get my kids through this yeah like there has to be I just for me the research is incredibly comforting
00:13:07because there's my experience there's other individual experience but if people have studied this and figure out what works on large numbers of people that's better and Adam just followed up he said yes there's research and I'm looking at it and I and then he would literally send me
00:13:23like research summaries like okay there's been one longitudinal study of children who have lost fathers or last sorry lost parents and gone through divorce here's what it says and for me that was incredibly comforting and then I would started calling him more and more with okay here's what
00:13:41happened today and here's how I feel and it's never going to feel better and Adam would say that's called permanence that's one of the traffic right and no but for me the research in the data I I'm not saying it would be for everyone but for me he
00:13:56it was unbelievably helpful so ma'am personalization blaming myself you know I blamed myself for Dave died the early reports were that he died falling off an exercise machine so I thought if I only found him sooner right he would be alive and my my brother is a neurosurgeon
00:14:12so this is his fields and he sat there with me at first patiently and increasingly with more anxiety and and passion in his voice Cheryl Dave did not die falling off an exercise machine if they fell off an exercise machine he would have broken arm not died he
00:14:30did not die that way and then when we got the autopsy report and was coronary artery disease you know it wasn't diagnosed and should I have known and then when I finally got over okay I'm not a doctor it's not my fault I did diagnose the disease that
00:14:46his doctors to diagnose I blame myself for disrupting my mom's life destructing you know the Facebook client meetings destructing Adam's life and Adam said to me he said if you don't get over the personalization you are not going to cover and if you don't recover your kids can't
00:15:03recover mom that's what psychologists now I think you said somewhere that he told you to ban the word sorry the or was saying sorry sorry sorry yes but the reason the reason that was so important was he could prove it he said people have studied this and you
00:15:19know forgiving yourself is a really hard thing but if you tell me if I don't forgive myself my kids are never going to recover I'm willing to do anything and so Adam just kept weighing in at these critical moments with here's how to think about this here's what
00:15:33we now I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today I'm with Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg and psychologist Adam grant and now I want to ask you you know I started hearing this term resilience emerging %HESITATION a few years ago kind of early twenty first century often in the
00:16:16context of social infrastructure or in a resilient ecosystems resilient cities like after hurricane sandy how do you to rebuild and plan assuming that the unexpected catastrophe will come but planning so that so that what knocks out one part of the system won't bring down the whole thing and
00:16:35you're talking about resilient human beings and I'm curious about is this a term that has had kind of a new birth or a renaissance in psychology as well yeah it it is so it it started to gain a lot of traction in the nineteen nineties late nineties when
00:16:54Marty Seligman that call you mine here at Penn %HESITATION this this whole initiative on positive psychology and he said look as psychologist we know a lot about how to treat suffering yeah we can help people become less depressed and less anxious but we don't know a whole lot
00:17:09about how to help people flourish and you know if it's nice to care some of the worst does that people face now lives but what about really living the best lives we can how do we do that and there were there a lot of a lot of red
00:17:25experts who've been you have sort of already tackling this question and and Marty brought them together ands resilience really grew out of a desire to say look it's it's not enough just to you know help people recover and you know try to mend them when they're broken we
00:17:41need to understand how to help people find and build strength right when you know when that was the worst things happen to them which they do and it's just exploded as a field of research there there researchers studying you know how to build resilience in kids how to
00:17:58find resilience after divorce after loss %HESITATION how to help communities build rain together and and part of what what Sharon I where I think both really influenced by was just how much knowledge is out there that hasn't been shared more broadly at and it it's a new paradigm
00:18:15in American culture and you know the three of us in very different ways are great examples of you know I mean I think we you know I think we were probably born into this world of you know be successful be powerful %HESITATION and you know the whole like
00:18:33American like self made man thing and this this is actually being reality based and saying don't expect that things will always progress and always get better because life is not like that surely think about you are you are the chief operating officer of this incredibly powerful company and
00:18:55force in the world I mean your you as a human being and as a professional person you create order out of for you know that the constant potential of chaos and so I've got to imagine that this was also a paradigm shift in your approach to your life
00:19:12as Dave staff opened up you know just the ground beneath your feet chess that I have to say I don't think show will tell you this but her co author I mean and no skill about who edited this book with us %HESITATION once told me that she just
00:19:26for a day she wanted to own Cheryl's brain B. so convenient to have like a brain full of color coded sticky notes all perfectly organized and we all live in constant envy of that but so it but get even more so it must be just busted been such
00:19:42a shock to your system it's it is such an I do question because yes until this happened certainly I'd face challenges everyone does I'd gotten divorced very young and that was something that was hard for me to get over in process but there was no order to this
00:20:00because it didn't make sense that a grown healthy man who woke up in the morning and went on a hike just die literally could go to the gym and dot and out of no where at forty seven years old and you know my story and I think the
00:20:18story of so many people facing hardship is this balancing between no control no order accepting the grief accepting your emotions and trying to find things we can do that give us some sense of control and in that first bucket I learned a lot my friend Davis Guggenheim he
00:20:35makes documentary films he and his wife Lisa us came and slept over early on and he just looked at me and said you know Cheryl when I feel movies and I do documentaries I can't write them in advance I have to let the story unfolds he knows me
00:20:53well he said Cheryl your grief past unfold you cannot put it in a box and wrap it up there is no sticky note for this there is no excel spreadsheet and you have to let this happen my rabbi told me to lean into the sock yeah not what
00:21:06I meant not what I meant by lean into what we say it was you know control of your families here and learning to accept the lack of control that I have is a huge part of this for me but then on the other hand in the void in
00:21:19the grief in the isolation as the mother of two grieving children my children were seven and ten they lost their father overnight you want something to do said there were moments where I was just desperate for anything I could do which I think did give me some sense
00:21:37of hope in some sense of control and that's where the research and the steps I could take care man yeah om select let's talk about some of those practical learning this tools reliving that you've written about and %HESITATION in some of them were like you were surprised early
00:21:55on that Adam council due to focus on worst case scenarios which is crazy said it's a fine old tradition so it made sense ensemble didn't make sense and another I mean Adam look to me and said you should think about how things could be worse and I thought
00:22:13to myself Dave just died suddenly how can things be worse and he said he could have had that cardiac arrest me a driving your children I mean in that instant to this day when I say that I feel better I'm like okay my kids are alive I'm fine
00:22:29literally because think about the devastation I felt with Dave and the devastation of losing all three of them in one instant which happens here and all of a sudden you're better and you would think that when you're trying to find a way forward you want to think about
00:22:44happy thoughts but actually what you want to do is find gratitude gratitude for months left and one way of doing that is think about how things could be worse and that really did work because the minute I thought about the fact that I'm lucky to still have my
00:23:00children alive what I found was gratitude thank god my children are alive and I can raise them and I can raise them to know who their father was who their father would have wanted them to be Adam do you know scientifically how this is grounded in our psyches
00:23:20throughout its history way for maybe but how does it work %HESITATION have I wish I had a good answer to that I will tell you that long before I read the research on it and we had a a close family member and just as those who was killed
00:23:34in a car accident and I had a really hard time just dealing with house something so horrible and senseless could happen to someone so good and %HESITATION house and my wife has %HESITATION background in psychiatry and she was the one who taught me to consider how things could
00:23:50be worse and I have the same reaction at the time the channel did like this is one of the most awful things that could happen to a person to a family how can you imagine it being worse and after that it yeah I got really curious about how
00:24:03did how does that work ends I think the I mean there's there's an evolutionary story to be told about it which is that you know where we're wired to pay attention to bad thanks right like it frankly historically I you see something moving in the jungle and you're
00:24:19like oh it's orange with black stripes in sharp things coming out of its mouth I wonder if that could be a tiger you would die where his if you immediately were like Tiger you would live in and sort of surviving pass on your jeans and I think because
00:24:37of that like a lot of times bad is stronger than good and when something bad happens it's really hard to replace the negative thoughts with positive ones and so it's almost like that yeah I think about how things could be worse it's like a it's a trick that
00:24:51we we used to capture attention because were so good at focusing on what's going wrong %HESITATION that then we can we can sort of take advantage of that wiring as opposed to trying to work against it and surely she said you have drawn both of eve John on
00:25:07a lot of data but also a lot of other stories I mean there's a chapter called the elephant in the room but you know what strikes me about that also is and I think probably starting with that first Facebook post you wrote thirty days after Dave's death %HESITATION
00:25:22it's not just that the elephant as ins in the room but that you realize that unfathomable grief and loss are all around walking around in all kinds of lives all around you that did that take it is absolutely so many stories of things than people share with you
00:25:38or that you learn or that you see are taken in a different way no absolutely it happens is that when bad things happen we deal with the repercussions of that their grief for the loss the cancer treatments the chemo therapy the nausea you know the financial hardship of
00:25:55apparent going to present but then we also deal with all of the things that come from silence isolation lack of support in many cases shame you know if you want to silence a room get diagnosed with cancer no one knows what to say and you're right that there
00:26:13is a lot of adversity in a lot of hardship all around us and it is not quiet in a room it is an elephant and it is following us and what it does is it cuts us off from the human connection we need to get three things when
00:26:26we most need it and I realized having been on the other side of this I got this wrong many times if I had a friend I had many friends who've been diagnosed with cancer over the years I used to say I know you're gonna get through it right
00:26:39and I would say it once not mentioned again okay what's wrong with that a lot they don't know they're going to get through it so when I say I know you're going to get through it when I'm actually doing I thought I was being hopeful but what I
00:26:50was really doing was not acknowledging the state they're in because the little voice in their head is saying you don't know that I'm going to get there and I don't know and then I would never mention it again because I thought if I brought it up I was
00:27:00reminding them they had cancer losing Dave taught me how ludicrous that was you can't reminds me I lost if I know that so when no one says anything I just feel alone it's not that I forget and so now what I do you know if someone gets sinuses
00:27:15cancer and unfortunately this has happened many times since I last day of I will say to them I know you don't know if you're going to get through this and I don't know either but you're not gonna go through alone I'm here to help you I'm here to
00:27:29do it with you and then the next time I see them I will ask them how are you feeling not how are you how are you feeling how's it going do you want to talk about this and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't but I don't let
00:27:44the silence overtake our relationship it's it's so helpful eight you also have this stunning sentence %HESITATION from somebody named Mitch Kerr McGee %HESITATION our child dies a second time when no one speaks their name yeah that that was that and it went into one of the things that
00:28:04happened in the the months after a day passed away was that people started sending all sorts of stories and interviews and quotes and poems and Cheryl shared a lot of the most moving in meaningful ones with you know with a group of family and friends %HESITATION which I
00:28:21think really it really helped us know what she was going through and so I I know I was stopped cold when I read this is from that you know a father who lost a child and found that afterward people were afraid to mention it same thing that show
00:28:35was talking about they didn't want to remind him and he will he wanted more than anything to remember his child and that means we we have to have that conversation you can listen again and share this conversation with Adam grant and Sheryl Sandberg to our website on being
00:29:05dot org I'm Krista Tippett on being continues in a moment I'm Krista Tippett ambitious on being today a Frank and vulnerable conversation with Facebook COO Sheryl Sandberg and Wharton psychologist Adam grant after Cheryl's husband David Goldberg died suddenly at forty seven she found great comfort and guidance in
00:29:37Adams friendship and his research into resilience they've just launched option be a book and a non profit about the learnings that resulted I want to read a paragraph in the book just because I feel like so many important really practical tools have just been laid out but here's
00:29:55another scenario you describe you said people continually avoided the subject I went to a close friend's house for dinner and obviously I know you're not saying that anybody means to to be do it right this is just that we are we have to learn right anyway people continually
00:30:11avoided the subject I want to close friends house for dinner and she and her husband made small talk the entire time I listened mystified keeping my thoughts to myself you're right the warriors are totally crushing it and you know who really love that team Dave I got emails
00:30:27from friends asking me to fly to their cities to speak at their events without acknowledging that travel might be more difficult for me now %HESITATION it's just an overnight sure I'll see if Dave can come back to life and put the kids to bed I ran into friends
00:30:41at local parks you talked about the weather yes the weather has been weird with all this rain and death that's what it felt like yeah I mean those two such everyday interactions right yeah and no one meant harm by Anna and I saw myself in a lot of
00:30:59those missteps that people made to me when I saw people that I knew were facing real adversity I would say how are you figuring if they wanted to talk they would talk but it's so hard to bring this up well how am I okay my husband just died
00:31:13it's hard to get out of bed in the morning I don't know how to parent my children alone and I'm quite certain I'll never feel a moment of happiness again I mean that's not an answer to the question how are you but if you say to someone how
00:31:25are you today I know you are suffering if you want to talk about it I'm here then people can bring it up the other lesson here is and this is another thing I really messed up before is do something specific rather than offering to do anything to do
00:31:43this all the time if anyone was going there something hard I would say is there anything I can do and I meant it I would have done anything they asked but you if you ask a question not on purpose but you're kind of shifting the burden to the
00:31:55person who needs the help and it's hard to ask it's hard to ask for the big things it's hard to ask you know please make sure my kids and I are invited to somewhere for thanksgiving dinner because if it's going to be just the three of us that's
00:32:08gonna be unbearably sad don't leave us alone for the Jewish holidays for the next twenty years can't ask that or I couldn't even you know god would be so nice to have someone bring is dinner that's hard to ask for two my amazing colleague Dan leaving he and
00:32:24his wonderful wife they unfortunately lost their son and in and in a long time they were in the hospital with him before he passed away you know she had some great examples friends attacks and what do you not want on a burger or I'm in the lobby of
00:32:39the hospital for a hug for the next hour whether you want one or not those are the people that really helped SO urging people just do something just do something rather than ask if you can do anything I think again kicks the elephant out of the room and
00:32:52shows people that you were there with them you you %HESITATION quote just one of my favorite lines also from Annie Dillard how we spend our days is how we spend our lives even just the the ways you've been speaking about how to talk to people the question you
00:33:12know that the difference between the question of how are you and how are you today I'm because how we spend our days is how we spend our lives those I think are tools for working life right with lose our colleagues as well as friends or people we know
00:33:29outside of work I always thought that what mattered most in our work in our lives was the big moments you know that the day you got a promotion %HESITATION the the major success the you know the project that really helped other people %HESITATION and and in our personal
00:33:46lives you know your wedding day and when you get to welcome your first child of course those moments are incredibly meaningful and memorable but when I started yeah I guess learning more about the evidence as a psychologist I was struck that you know it's it's actually not the
00:34:01intensity of your positive experiences is the frequency that really matters for you know how much happiness you find in life and yeah that is pretty big implications for thinking about how you plan your life right it's it's not actually the the big moments that matter most it's it's
00:34:20wet %HESITATION Tim urban the blogger says is like the joy you find on hundreds of forgettable Wednesdays and of course it would be great to make all those Wednesday is less forgettable but it's actually those daily moments of joy that that really matter and and one of things
00:34:35that I've learned from from Charles experience is how hard it is to rediscover joy when something horrible happens that turns our life upside down and says you know the the idea of giving yourself permission just to feel joy again I remember Cheryl saying how can I be happy
00:34:53I don't deserve to be happy Davis Cup mmhm yes it to say well actually yeah that's that's the last thing that the Dave would want is for you to continue to be miserable after Dave died I think was about four months later I was at a friend's bar
00:35:07mitzvah and a childhood friend pulled me on to the dance floor to dance to a song I loved in childhood and a minute in I just burst into tears I mean it was embarrassing I had to be kind of I sure out of the room really quickly and
00:35:22I didn't really know what was wrong and then I realized it was wrong as I felt okay I felt okay for one minute four months later I felt happy and I felt so guilty feeling happy and the very next day I was in Washington my kids and I
00:35:36went to visit Adam and Alison and their kids and I told Adam the story and he looked me in several of course you haven't felt happy you don't do a single thing that would make anyone happy since Dave died you don't do a thing he said you're waiting
00:35:49to feel better to do something that will make you happy but really it goes the other way and what he said was let's let's talk about what you do right you go to work you take care of your kids you write in your journal and cry those are
00:36:01all important things but you have to give yourself permission to watch TV play a game even these little things and that the big aha as I think I was waiting to feel better to feel happy but I could go out to dinner with them because I my cry
00:36:17or I could watch a TV show senator Miami of days you actually find happiness in the small things by taking those steps I started watching TV again I started watching game of thrones again I decided I was going to take things back my kids and I would take
00:36:33things back one day I took settlers of Catan off the shelf you know Dave Dave last time I saw him we were playing that game that was the game the four of us played all the time and I looked at my kids and I said who wants to
00:36:44play and they just look up said we do we haven't played in so long and then my daughter went for gray to be gray Davis always gray and my son said you can't be great it was status color and she said but I want to be great and
00:36:57I said yes you can because we're gonna take it back mom we're gonna be great you're gonna play great and Daddy's honor and we took it back we took back a thon we took back gray I took that game of thrones we took back Scrabble we took back
00:37:11cheering for the sports teams Dave loved and it actually does little things add up not just a moment of happiness but because you can have moments of happiness moments of strength and the thing is I really needed permission I felt guilty I felt guilty and this is a
00:37:30common reaction to adversity someone dies even when we had nothing to do with the death we have survivor guilt someone loses their job other people you know if you didn't lose your job how can I be happy when my friends lost a job someone goes to prison I
00:37:45have my freedom how can I be happy and along with all the hardship we face you know this guilt is a thief of Chile mmhm mmhm my brother in law in an unbelievably generous move called me months after Dave died you know crying I could hear it in
00:38:00his voice saying all they've ever wanted was for you to be happy don't take that away from him and ask and this is on being too damn with Facebook's Sheryl Sandberg and psychologist Adam grant want to talk a little bit about what you've learned about I mean I'll
00:38:35let me just say that the story of you coming home from vacation to tell them that their father had died I mean it's just it's hard braking is unimaginable but you you also experience your children not just in during but but moving through life and it feels to
00:38:59me like this notion of resilience also changes the way you think about parenting qualitatively that you know this idea isn't about having a backbone about strengthening the muscles around our backbone owner if both of you could see a little bit about that I mean you're both parents but
00:39:14Cheryl did used you start I mean that was there are so many truly horrible moments people ask me what was the worst moment there's a lot of competition for that slot right finding Dave telling my kids burying him like there's so many bass moments but even with very
00:39:33stiff competition the moment rice sat down on that couch with my parents and my sister to tell my kids they would never see their father again it is unimaginable even for me even having the threat and you know the screaming and wailing and what happened was horrible and
00:39:48then I think maybe an hour in my son looked at me and said thank you mommy for being here to tell me yourself and when I put my kids to bed that night my daughter looked at me and said I don't just feel bad for us I feel
00:40:00bad for grandma Paul and uncle rob because they lost him to and I thought about having a very very worst moments of their lives my kids were able to think about other people and that gave me hope I Marvel at their resilience I absolutely Marvel my kids and
00:40:20I %HESITATION were just talking about what to do this father's day you know there are these days on the calendar that just it never occurred to me how painful father's day must be for millions of families and now I now and some months in advance were right now
00:40:34trying to get through yet another father's day and my son said this time why don't we go have fun all day will have fun just like Daddy would have won it it's incredible and you you also have written that you you stop warring in the same way when
00:40:52setbacks and disappointments come into your kids lives do you understand my god right now yeah when when we are having a normal kid problem you know I didn't do well in the past all my friends made the soccer team the advance akhir team and I didn't you know
00:41:08my lunch spells in the water and I had nothing to eat that happened yesterday I am just over flooded with relief I'm like oh a normal kid problem this is not death let it literally I'm I'm relieved like those problems that seemed so big before are tiny and
00:41:28small and completely Sir mountable and it's not just me I'm not the only one with this perspective my kids have it a few weeks ago my son's basketball team lost in the playoffs and all the other kids were super upset I look to my son I said how
00:41:40are you he looked me does mom this is sixth grade basketball I'm a fine right I would never wish that perspective on anyone especially my child but he does have it and it is a form of posttraumatic growth and it is a valuable life lesson yeah Adam how
00:41:59do you I mean you could also carry around all this data and this research and you're always immersed in I mean how do you how do you apply that to your life as a parent yeah I've always wanted to be one of the psychologists who doesn't screw up
00:42:12my children so I am I got the greatest children yeah they are the cutest sweetest smartest they're durable no comments by so you try not to have them as research subjects and Guinea pigs yeah as as much as possible but you know I I will say the thing
00:42:34that the psychologists underscored for me is just how important it is for kids to know that they matter and it's not a it's I mean it's it's a really basic but important idea that I think as parents a lot of us lose sight of that the kids need
00:42:48to know that that other people notice them care about them and even rely on them and that just becomes all the more important in the face of hardship right when you're feeling that isolation that show was describing that lack of control %HESITATION you know to know that that
00:43:04other people are paying attention to you that they're involving you in conversations that there you know letting you make some choices and and even you know sometimes seeking your advice is so important and this is that you had this is one of the things that %HESITATION that Alison
00:43:20and I've spent a lot of time on with our kids is you know just making sure that they have a say right in the in the big decisions that we make in the small ones too and see you know that that is a source of strength right because
00:43:32that means they don't end up constantly looking to adults for direction every time there's a decision to make right or every time something difficult happens they they know that they can rely on their own judgment %HESITATION ends you know I think that that is one of the most
00:43:48striking things for me of just looking back to that the first time I I went to dinner with with Cheryl and Dave and their kids is how many questions they asked their children but also how they taught their children to ask questions of other people you know I
00:44:02guess that's modeling showing other people that they matter and I think that that's such an important skill that probably we can all do a better job at teaching as parents and I'm also curious about the connection of this kind of collection of things we're talking about resilience adversity
00:44:21and to your work on giving an originality as you live this in friendship with Cheryl and in your research how does resilience flow into those things generosity returning originality creativity it's really been at the heart of a lot of my work and he has been a lot of
00:44:44my career studying why givers burn out you know what happens when we're generous people exhaust themselves %HESITATION or just you know when no good deed goes unpunished and what you need in that situation more than anything else is you know the strength to persevere %HESITATION you need places
00:45:01to find energy you know to rejuvenate your motivation ands here is far as originality is concerns %HESITATION I don't know a creative person who has not faced just extremely junction and failure and disappointment over and over and over again and you have the ability to process to keep
00:45:20trying to try new ideas new ways of solving problems %HESITATION is one of the the strongest forces that that drives whether people are able to move the world around them and so yeah I guess I I've come to think of resilience as a critical scale for living a
00:45:36meaningful life and for living it according to your own values and that I think I'm now I'm much more aware of that than I was before yeah I I actually wanted to %HESITATION come to a close with the notion of wisdom which is connected to a meaningful life
00:45:54and which it seems to me throughout your writing it's that resilience is also building block of wisdom as much as is healing in and kind of surviving and flourishing you know wisdom can be connected to things like knowledge and accomplishment certainly but those are things you can point
00:46:14out region you can point at seventy said they're knowledgeable they're intelligent they're they're accomplished but that the measure of wisdom is the imprint that a life makes on other life surrounded and I thought of that Adam when I was reading something you wrote about Dave after his death
00:46:28he said I don't believe this happened for a reason but it has given us all a reason to be more present parents more loving spouses more supportive friends and more caring leaders the overwhelming sentiment from everyone who knew Davis that he inspired us to be better human beings
00:46:44and he had that affect honest throughout his life long before we lost him yeah I I gash there's very very little to add to that I will just say that Dave is extraordinary in many ways and so he just he saw the good in everyone and so he
00:47:03went out of his way to be a friend to so many people and so you know I guess my hope is that that comes through and the way that Cheryl has gone on to help people %HESITATION with the wisdom that she gained that she never wanted to gain
00:47:19but she did and %HESITATION you know I think that's a beautiful thing is this well one thing going so I one thing that's really at the heart of this book is posttraumatic growth via an atom Adam sharing with me the research on posttraumatic growth which I then you
00:47:36know learned can you grow from trauma and you absolutely can not doesn't mean you check the growth I'd much rather have David give back all the gross but since that's not an option we grow we grow by by strengthening I know I'm stronger than I was before because
00:47:52I've lived through this and my kids do too we grow because we have deeper relationships more meaning my work at Facebook has more meaning we grow by finding more gratitude gratitude for my kids being alive something that really I took for granted before I think one of the
00:48:07questions we are asking in this book is can you have feature matic growth I absolutely think you can I would give anything to go back and live with status with the sense of gratitude I have for every day that I have now anything you know what would I
00:48:25have done if I'd known we only had eleven years what would I have done on that last day when we went on a hike and you know he walked to the guys and I walk to the girls you know if I could go back and share with him
00:48:37the gratitude I feel now that would be incredible but I can't but what I can do is try to live my life going forward with that credit to it and other people who haven't experienced trauma can get that gratitude now two months ago my cousin Laura turned fifty
00:48:53and I called %HESITATION the morning of her birthday and I said lord I'm calling to say Happy Birthday but I'm also calling because in case you woke up this morning with that on my god I'm fifty I'm getting old thing we all do I want to tell you
00:49:05that I'm so glad you're fifty because this is the year that Dave won't turn fifty and it turns out I never thought about this before but there's only two options we either car alter or we don't and it is an honor and privilege to turn fifty and I
00:49:19am so grateful that you are alive in my life and I I used to roll my eyes at birthdays and either not celebrate them or of all my god I'm getting old if I get to grow old I will be so grateful and that gratitude with all the
00:49:35sadness that still lingers makes my life deeper richer meaningful and in some ways has a different kind of meaning in Chile Sheryl Sandberg is chief operating officer of Facebook author of lean in and founder of lean and dot org Adam grant is the sole P. Steinberg professor of
00:50:03management and professor of psychology at the Wharton school of the university of Pennsylvania and the author of originals and give and take their new book together has the same name as their non profit initiative option be facing adversity building resilience and finding joy on being is tribulus Chris
00:50:38Hugo lily Percy Mariah Helgeson Maya Terrel merry Sam away Bethany man Selena Carlson and rex are launchers a lovely theme music is provided and composed by so we Keating and the last voice you hear singing our final credits in each show is hip hop artist list so on
00:50:56being was created at American public media our funding partners including the John Templeton foundation the Fetzer institute helping to build the spiritual foundation for a loving world find them at Fetzer dot org Callie appear foundation working to create a future where universal spiritual values form the foundation of
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