Full Transcript for Should Endurance Athletes Take Antioxidants? Dr. Carlene Starck Explains the Science

since that time, so ~ we published a paper 2017, I think it was a review sort of looking at using antioxidants with a specific focus on the the antioxidant supplement that that we were researching at the time. But we published in 2017. 00:05:59.516 --> 00:06:00.516 Mm-hmm. 00:06:01.471 --> 00:06:06.084 Now, since that time, over the last sort of ~ nine years, there's actually been more come out. 00:06:08.495 --> 00:06:34.067 It actually looks more and more likely that vitamin C and vitamin E, when taken in high doses around exercise, can actually blunt the effect, the the adaptation effect. ~ so whether or not we can fully respond to the training stress that we're putting ourselves under and then adapt to that training stress. ~ so it's it's important to note that this ~ has been shown in both trained and untrained individuals. 00:06:34.067 --> 00:06:49.797 So a lot of the time When we're looking at research, especially when it comes to training, you can see a difference between effects on untrained individuals because their is not as adapted to the effects of training versus highly trained But this is something we see in both. 00:06:49.797 --> 00:06:53.499 ~ But it is something that happens with high doses. 00:06:53.499 --> 00:07:01.843 So we're not talking about the vitamin C or the vitamin E that you might get from whole foods in the diet that you might get from eating an orange or some kiwi fruit or something like that. 00:07:01.843 --> 00:07:04.254 We're talking about high doses in a supplemental. 00:07:05.547 --> 00:07:08.932 And what dose would that like what is what are we talking milligram wise? 00:07:09.309 --> 00:07:15.579 Yeah, so for vitamin C for example, it's like your five hundred to a thousand milligram tablets,~ that you might have in the same width. 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:24.194 I can't remember the exact dose for vitamin E, but it will be what you would get in ~ in a vitamin E capsule, which is a lot higher than than what you'll get in the diet. 00:07:24.194 --> 00:07:31.504 And a lot higher I will also note than what our current recommended intakes might be. So Mm. 00:07:31.504 --> 00:07:33.536 Mm-hmm. And why were individuals taking, Mm-hmm. 00:07:34.557 --> 00:07:38.161 do you think, vitamin C and vitamin E around endurance exercise? 00:07:38.161 --> 00:07:47.266 Did they think it was gonna help performance because of the oxidative Yeah, so I mean, when we exercise, we do submit our body to a lot of oxidative stress. 00:07:47.266 --> 00:07:52.708 So it's well known that I mean, just the process of being alive, we're constantly producing free radicals in the body. 00:07:52.708 --> 00:07:59.959 And so what it was thought was that as we're exercising, we're producing elevated levels of free radicals, which could potentially have a damaging effect. 00:07:59.959 --> 00:08:11.432 So if we take antioxidants, we can counteract that damaging effect,~ and then we can ~ you know, l we'll be better for it, we can respond better, we can

adapt, we're not gonna get sick,~ all of that kinda. 00:08:11.994 --> 00:08:19.257 Because obviously we you know, we hear the term free radicals, it sounds pretty out there, it sounds pretty ~ nasty. 00:08:19.257 --> 00:08:40.715 They're also called reactive oxygen species or reactive nitrogen species they are highly reactive, and so they can sort of ~ I'm just thinking about you know, like ~ old computer games like little Pac-Man, you know, like going around mopping up all these little nasty bullets and and reactive things. And so that's sort of the perception that people might get is that Hm. 00:08:40.269 --> 00:08:45.451 have these free radicals, they're floating around the body, they're knocking into different molecules and they're creating damage. 00:08:45.451 --> 00:08:46.836 ~ And so the thinking is let's take some antioxidants, Mm-hmm. 00:08:48.854 --> 00:08:53.517 get rid of those free radicals, and then we will be able to perform at higher levels. 00:08:53.517 --> 00:08:59.674 And I think the major thing is around recovery, right? We're going to be able to recover better and get back to our training more effectively. 00:09:01.078 --> 00:09:07.904 And so, I mean, the 500 to a thousand milligram vitamin C dose, I feel like that's pretty common dose you'd find in the store and that I've Okay comes. 00:09:08.624 --> 00:09:20.081 plenty of athletes take. and like I can think of an athlete right now now where she told me she was taking vitamin C because she didn't want to get sick in preparation for a race. 00:09:20.081 --> 00:09:26.876 Is there a point in one's training when we think about they're they're trying to build these adaptations at a certain phase of training? 00:09:26.876 --> 00:09:33.667 And then we're say couple of weeks out from a race where we're likely not getting much more adaptation. 00:09:33.667 --> 00:09:36.679 Like then is that an okay window to be taking that vitamin C? 00:09:37.544 --> 00:09:40.407 Yeah, so I mean there's number of things to unpack there. 00:09:40.407 --> 00:09:48.291 First of all, I personally take high doses of vitamin C, especially if I'm if I feel myself getting sick. 00:09:48.291 --> 00:09:56.686 I just honestly, I'm like taking it every couple hours, just chucking it into my body because I'm I just I cannot afford to get sick. 00:09:56.686 --> 00:09:58.116 So that's slightly different, right? 00:09:57.100 --> 00:09:58.529 Right. Mm-hmm. 00:09:58.116 --> 00:10:07.147 And also if we think about the literature, the literature's looking at we would call it sort of period you know period training that period training period we're either taking Mm-hmm. 00:10:07.568 --> 00:10:09.629 it immediately before or immediately after. 00:10:09.629 --> 00:10:21.365 So it's important to to just highlight that that ~ that when we're looking at those effects on adaptation we're taking it very close to when we're training. And so we don't have a lot of understanding when it comes Mm-hmm. 00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:29.466

to what happens if I take a high dose of vitamin C in the morning and then I train in the afternoon and I'm not taking vitamin C around that. 00:10:29.466 --> 00:10:31.717 Does that have an effect? Has it cleared for my system? 00:10:31.717 --> 00:10:33.369 Is that gonna impact things? 00:10:33.698 --> 00:10:34.698 Mm-hmm. 00:10:34.072 --> 00:10:52.335 So I think that ~ if you have a trained athlete and they are building up to a race and they really ~ are worried about maybe it's the time of the year, maybe everybody's getting sick around them, in those couple of weeks before a race, as you mentioned, you're not gonna have a huge amount of adaptation. 00:10:52.335 --> 00:10:59.029 Like if you're not ready for your race a couple of weeks before the race, then you you're probably, you know, not gonna be able to do too much in those two weeks. 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.611 So I wouldn't expect that that would have any major impact. 00:11:01.611 --> 00:11:16.529 And if you're worried about getting sick, taking it sort of, you know, making sure you're not taking it immediately around your training is going to be a really good course of~ What a lot of people tend to do is actually sort of, you know, phase that approach. 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:28.139 So perhaps they're not taking it during training, but then they may be taking it around the actual race or around their competition, especially if it's a you know a multiphase event or if you're competing over a number of days, then you may be able to we do know that those antioxidants Mm-hmm. 00:11:31.504 --> 00:11:37.703 are quite potent. So~ You may be able to support your body through that. 00:11:37.703 --> 00:11:39.341 But I wouldn't for your client or athlete in particular, interesting. 00:11:41.546 --> 00:11:54.085 I wouldn't expect that taking some vitamin C ~ leading up to an event to try and prevent getting sick leading up to that event, as long as it's not taken directly around training. 00:11:54.085 --> 00:11:56.547 I wouldn't think that that would have any major effects. 00:11:56.547 --> 00:12:00.119 Although, as I say, I don't have any specific research to back that up. 00:12:00.087 --> 00:12:02.480 Right. The It's just more my educated. 00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:03.784 yes. Yeah, no, there's certainly value to that, Yes. 00:12:05.672 --> 00:12:25.715 right? I mean, you've been exposed to to this to like a high degree, and you've you've seen a lot and can yeah, you can have some like ideas of and yeah, predictions and theories of how things might perform based off of what you've learned thus far from it. I think the you kind of touched on little bit, but the immediate question is like, okay, so there's five five hundred to a thousand milligrams of vitamin C. 00:12:25.715 --> 00:12:33.812 What would that equate to in food and~ is it a lot of Kiwis? Like how many Kiwis we t it's a lot. 00:12:33.643 --> 00:12:39.134 Yeah, so an orange I think an orange is around seventy milligrams or something. 00:12:37.751 --> 00:12:38.751 Okay. 00:12:39.134 --> 00:12:50.158 ~ I mean the RD so I think in America in the US the RDA is around seventy five milligrams, I think, of vitamin C a day. 00:12:47.639 --> 00:12:48.794 Of vitamin C a day. 00:12:50.158 --> 00:12:54.019 In New Zealand, where I am, it's closer to forty. 00:12:54.019 --> 00:12:56.389 So those levels are very, very low. 00:12:54.561 --> 00:12:59.104 ~ Mm-hmm. 00:12:56.389 --> 00:12:58.440 So it's very easy to get that from food. 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:10.288 Keeping in mind, of course, those recommendations are based on preventing scurvy, which seems quite far removed from where we are in modern society. so an orange is around seventy. 00:13:07.403 --> 00:13:08.403 Yes. 00:13:10.288 --> 00:13:15.672 ~ a green I think it's a green kiwi fruit is up around the hundred. 00:13:15.672 --> 00:13:20.294 And then we have gold kiwi fruit which is much higher, maybe 150, I think. Don't quote me on that. 00:13:19.615 --> 00:13:20.615 interesting. 00:13:20.294 --> 00:13:23.616 I am pulling those numbers sort of, you know, ~ from somewhere in my memory. 00:13:22.082 --> 00:13:23.082 Yeah. 00:13:23.616 --> 00:13:26.528 But fruit can be quite high. Not all fruits, Mm-hmm. 00:13:26.238 --> 00:13:31.989 so and if you took looked at fruits on average, a number of fruits don't contain Mm-hmm. 00:13:31.222 --> 00:13:36.861 lot of vitamin C. ~ there are some vegetables that contain a lot like capsicum or red pepper can contain quite a bit and I'm pretty sure broccoli Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 00:13:39.375 --> 00:13:40.645 may contain a little bit as well. 00:13:40.645 --> 00:13:52.558 So so but in general the amount the amount that you'd get from a diet from a balanced diet containing a variety of fruits and vegetables is more than sufficient to provide us with our recommended intake. 00:13:52.558 --> 00:13:56.200 So when we're supplementing we are taking doses that are much higher than that. 00:13:52.692 --> 00:13:53.692 Yeah. 00:13:56.200 --> 00:13:57.716 The other part to this of course is that ~ Right. 00:13:59.785 --> 00:14:04.918 what's been shown is that actually when we take those high doses, our body doesn't actually absorb all of that. 00:14:04.918 --> 00:14:08.390 So we will excrete quite a bit of quite a bit of that. 00:14:08.390 --> 00:14:09.770 So I I'm pretty sure something like two hundred milligrams is the amount that Right. 00:14:11.942 --> 00:14:21.538 can be absorbed. So you may actually, you know, ~ if you're taking five hundred to a thousand milligrams, you're probably not getting all of that into the system. 00:14:21.538 --> 00:14:23.082 ~ anyway. ~ so ~ Mm-hmm. 00:14:27.551 --> 00:14:38.246 Yeah, and there there are a few it does seem to potentially have a an oxidant effect at a high dose as well. 00:14:38.246 --> 00:14:39.297 So that's the other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of these compounds Mm. 00:14:41.729 --> 00:14:54.527 or supplements that have antioxidant effects at a normal dose

can actually become pro oxidant at a higher dose, which we can probably get into a little bit later, but that's another thing to keep in mind, especially when you're looking at supplementation. 00:14:55.225 --> 00:14:57.785 Whoa, yeah, that is very interesting. 00:14:57.785 --> 00:15:13.529 Pro oxid. Okay. So, okay. So this also leads me into kind of people I feel like on the interwebs, like taking a little bit of something and then extrapolating it to something big, right? So they hear like vitamin C and they're like,~ they apply it to all antioxidants. 00:15:13.529 --> 00:15:17.971 What are your thoughts on that? 00:15:17.971 --> 00:15:32.254 Do we know like anything about that, whether this applies to all anti ~ antioxidants and immediately think of like tart cherry juice is like something that's handed to tour de France athletes, right, when they finish their stage. 00:15:32.254 --> 00:15:36.395 ~ that's gotta be rich in antioxidants, but does it have a thousand milligrams of vitamin C? 00:15:36.395 --> 00:15:37.697 Probably not. 00:15:38.942 --> 00:15:41.153 Yeah, so it is really interesting actually. 00:15:41.153 --> 00:15:48.044 ~ and tartary juice is is a really cool supplement that I haven't actually played Mm. ~ with myself, but I'm keen to get my hands on some. 00:15:48.044 --> 00:15:56.222 I know you can get tartary juice powder now, which I'm gonna I'm definitely gonna see if I can purchase ~ and play with. 00:15:50.914 --> 00:15:51.914 Mm-hmm. 00:15:56.222 --> 00:16:03.424 But ~ so I I think the thing what's you know, we have different categories of antioxidant in terms of how they work, Mm-hmm. 00:16:03.758 --> 00:16:05.349 how they operate, where they come from. 00:16:05.932 --> 00:16:10.645 So in the diet you have your things like vitamin C and vitamin E, which function as direct antioxidants. 00:16:10.645 --> 00:16:21.214 So they actually have ~ an interacting effect with the free radicals that they're going to generally what happens is is it's to do with redox biology, you know, you have oxidation reduction. 00:16:21.214 --> 00:16:23.765 I don't know if you remember that from school. 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:23.539 Mm-hmm. 00:16:23.765 --> 00:16:29.120 ~ but really what we're doing is these, you know, an oxidant will go around oxidizing things. 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:35.424 So then that needs to be reduced in order to to sort of deactivate or to neutralize it, I suppose you could say. 00:16:33.913 --> 00:16:34.913 Mm-hmm. 00:16:36.023 --> 00:16:44.298 So you have your ~ direct antioxidants which will go around and they will actually interact with these free radicals to neutralize them. 00:16:44.298 --> 00:16:49.120 But then you have things like your polyphenol antioxidants. 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:59.485 So these are bioactive components that you might consume in other fruits and vegetables, and that's probably the thing that's working the most when you take something like tart cherry juice. 00:16:59.485 --> 00:17:00.640 These polyphenols don't have a direct effect on the antioxidants Mm. 00:17:03.587 --> 00:17:04.739 on the free radicals. 00:17:04.994 --> 00:17:24.578 But what they actually tend to do or seem to do is upregulate endogenous pathways or the pathways that exist within our body to stimulate those to jump into action and then you know work to mop up any sort of free radicals or excess free radicals that might be existing in the body. 00:17:24.578 --> 00:17:26.319 So those are two different effects. 00:17:25.048 --> 00:17:26.048 Interesting. 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:33.525 And it seems like when we're actually doing the latter, so when we're supporting the body's natural response, that doesn't Mm-hmm. 00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:43.749 seem to have the same blunting effects because we're not, you know, like I would I think we can probably relate it to an analogy like AI or something like that. The the very contentious AI. 00:17:43.749 --> 00:17:48.311 So with AI, the the concern is that it's going to take our jobs. 00:17:48.311 --> 00:17:49.664 Right? So it's coming in, it can do what we already do, Mm-hmm. 00:17:51.894 --> 00:17:55.507 it we no longer need it. So that's like our direct antioxidants. 00:17:55.154 --> 00:17:56.154 Mm. 00:17:55.810 --> 00:17:56.971 can come in, they Mm-hmm. 00:17:56.510 --> 00:17:58.801 can do the job of what our body would normally do. 00:17:58.801 --> 00:18:02.242 So our body's kind of like, screw you, I can go and do something else. 00:18:01.227 --> 00:18:03.143 Yeah. Yeah. 00:18:02.242 --> 00:18:05.644 But I'm not needed, I'm gonna find another role for myself. 00:18:05.644 --> 00:18:17.984 Whereas with our polypheno antioxidants that is that are supporting the body's natural response, that's more like saying, okay, I'm going to learn how to use AI and learn how to use that tool to help Mm-hmm. 00:18:18.457 --> 00:18:25.324 me to do my job better. So AI is not replacing me, AI is actually enhancing my Right. 00:18:25.144 --> 00:18:26.291 My ability to do my role. 00:18:27.298 --> 00:18:45.028 Very cool. That yeah, that is a question I'd I wondered about too with the tart cherry juice is like again, you see it getting handed to these athletes on event day, but is this something that they would be beneficial for them to be using all through their season or through hard training blocks, or should it really only be something that's used on those like key events? 00:18:45.028 --> 00:18:48.982 it sounds like it could be all s year round. 00:18:48.471 --> 00:18:49.471 Yeah. 00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:59.104 You know, I thought long and hard about this and I I do think it's individual and I do think it's gonna depend on the load that we're putting on our body. 00:18:59.104 --> 00:19:00.415 Right. So you could say, look, Mm-hmm. 00:19:01.433 --> 00:19:02.815 I'm training really, really hard. 00:19:02.815 --> 00:19:05.965 I need all of this additional support. 00:19:05.965 --> 00:19:24.709 Then that begs the question, if you're training so

hard that you need to be constantly providing supplementation to yourself to help you r to recover, A Are you actually training in a way that's supporting the adaptation so that you're growing stronger over time? 00:19:24.709 --> 00:19:25.984 Or are you doing too much? You know, Mm-hmm. 00:19:27.270 --> 00:19:30.692 like the purpose of training is that it's this concept of hormesis. 00:19:30.692 --> 00:19:32.094 So we provide small amounts of a stressful stimulus, Mm-hmm. 00:19:34.555 --> 00:19:36.967 the body responds to that grows stronger. 00:19:36.967 --> 00:19:38.357 What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. 00:19:38.357 --> 00:19:43.300 And over time we adapt and we get stronger and stronger and fitter and fitter and our performance increases. 00:19:43.906 --> 00:19:48.430 But there is a point at which, you know, this is the the difference between overreaching and overtraining. 00:19:48.430 --> 00:19:52.623 So overreaching is what we want, we want to reach further than what we can currently do. 00:19:52.623 --> 00:20:00.148 Overtraining is when we're doing so much extra that now the body can't respond, can't adapt, and our performance decreases over time. 00:20:00.148 --> 00:20:07.334 So if we are having to constantly supplement ourselves, that would say to me, actually we're moving more into that overtraining zone. 00:20:07.334 --> 00:20:09.615 ~ and we don't want to be doing that. 00:20:07.671 --> 00:20:08.671 Mm. 00:20:09.615 --> 00:20:23.805 ~ so I would always Go back to square one and say, what is my, you know, how can I train in a way that I'm allowing my body to adapt in the way that it's meant to adapt, supporting my natural processes. 00:20:23.805 --> 00:20:33.194 ~ I would also look at the very boring fundamentals of the diet, right? Because we can talk a lot about antioxidants and supplements, Mm-hmm. 00:20:35.627 --> 00:20:39.028 but there are a number of different micronutrients and nutrients in the diet. 00:20:39.575 --> 00:20:44.027 that we need to get right to allow our body to actually respond to that adaptation in the first place. 00:20:44.027 --> 00:21:02.657 ~ you know, like if we're doing, I know I know, you know, a lot of the the listeners may be doing endurance training, but for those that are doing resistance training,~ responding to that mechanical stimulus that's put on the muscle, is you need you don't just need amino acids or you don't just need protein. 00:21:02.657 --> 00:21:11.314 You need to make sure you've got things like magnesium and zinc, which actually help to support the body's~ protein synthetic response as well, right? We've got to have all of these things. 00:21:11.314 --> 00:21:24.900 So the very first thing that I'd be looking at if you were thinking, hey, look, I'm I'm I'm not recovering as I would like, or ~ I'm feeling really sore, how how is my fundamental diet? 00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:26.190 Am I getting everything I need? 00:21:26.190 --> 00:21:27.601 Am I getting all my micronutrients? 00:21:27.601 --> 00:21:33.923 Is that in there? And then I would look at am I training in the best in the in a way that's actually supporting my body's natural response? 00:21:33.923 --> 00:21:37.865 And then I would add ~ antioxidants on top. 00:21:34.242 --> 00:21:35.242 Right. 00:21:38.154 --> 00:21:41.056 It could be that you are fighting a cold or something like that. 00:21:41.056 --> 00:21:48.280 It could be that the rest of your life is quite stressful and you're just finding Yeah, everything too much. And and it's and it's a support mechanism. 00:21:48.280 --> 00:21:51.854 I would be hesitant to be taking something every single day. 00:21:51.854 --> 00:22:04.428 That was a very long winded answer to your question, but No, I think it's I think it is spot on and it's something that's crossed my mind a lot too with ~ I f I think it was might have been Dr. 00:22:04.428 --> 00:22:25.733 Dana Lis who brought it up at w conference I was at, but she was talking about to even just like the what is it like beta alanine and bicarb and all of these tools and and how often are we using those and when are we timing them into our training season to like how can we get the most bang for our buck with our own bodies adaptations before we layer in these, you know, one and two percent. 00:22:26.711 --> 00:22:30.132 you know, advantage performance supplements too. 00:22:30.132 --> 00:22:35.463 I think w that's something that I always think about,~ too, throughout a season with an athlete. 00:22:35.463 --> 00:22:37.696 ~ okay, this is all like I'm just like soaking all this up because I think it's Yeah. 00:22:39.625 --> 00:22:44.536 so fascinating. what about the the hot topic glutathione? 00:22:44.536 --> 00:22:46.666 I think you talked about that in your paper as well. 00:22:46.666 --> 00:22:49.768 I feel like I hear about that more and more these days. 00:22:49.768 --> 00:22:56.823 ~ can you give a little bit of background on like what glutathione is and ~ where are people getting it from? 00:22:56.823 --> 00:22:59.275 Do we need it? Tell us a little bit about that. 00:23:00.396 --> 00:23:05.922 Yes, so glutathione is it's called the body's master antioxidant. 00:23:05.922 --> 00:23:08.273 So we've talked a lot about antioxidants and how they work. 00:23:08.273 --> 00:23:11.644 Glutathione is one of those. The body makes it itself and it does have Mm. Mm-hmm. 00:23:12.147 --> 00:23:15.631 a direct effect. So glutathione exists in two forms. 00:23:15.631 --> 00:23:21.395 There's reduced glutathione and oxidized glutathione, and and it sort of cycles between those forms. 00:23:21.395 --> 00:23:26.691 There are a lot of other processes that need to interact and come in to help with that cycling, but effectively. 00:23:27.398 --> 00:23:39.555 reduced glutathione will interact with an oxidant, become oxidized and then all have to be ~ reduced back to its y you know, reduced form so that then it can sort of cycle in and sort of go around the body. 00:23:39.555

--> 00:23:41.035 Now, of course, in a state where you have a huge oxidant load, Interesting. 00:23:44.917 --> 00:23:55.664 then you may get a state you may end up with sort of a depletion of glutathione and ~ And and so it may not be effective all of the time. 00:23:55.664 --> 00:24:01.198 That might be, you know, sickness or health or anything like that or ~ exceptionally high training loads. 00:23:59.128 --> 00:24:00.128 Mm-hmm. 00:24:01.198 --> 00:24:05.560 ~ so there's always going to be a balance between those two forms. 00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:17.577 And of course, your body doesn't just have one pool of glutathione that it keeps on recycling. ~ we do sort of ~ degrade glutathione and and ~ get rid of it, so the body's constantly having to make more as well. 00:24:17.577 --> 00:24:23.239 So it's sort of this you know, like a traffic light process where everything's sort of moving through and and talking to each other. 00:24:23.239 --> 00:24:26.790 So it's quite it's quite detailed or quite complex. 00:24:26.790 --> 00:24:29.242 ~ the production of glutathione. 00:24:29.242 --> 00:24:31.575 So glutathione is a tripeptide. 00:24:31.575 --> 00:24:37.018 It's got it's made up of three amino acids,~ which is glycine, cysteine and glutamate. 00:24:37.018 --> 00:24:38.346 And sis it's always been thought that cysteine is the limiting amino acid Mm. 00:24:42.632 --> 00:24:52.310 for glutathione production. ~ and so ~ If we could supplement with cysteine or we could increase our cysteine levels, and that was the premise of the paper that you're talking about. 00:24:51.576 --> 00:24:52.576 Mm. 00:24:52.310 --> 00:25:01.153 So the work that we were doing at the time was there was a supplement,~ a sort of new protein powder that a company was looking at, which was actually based on keratin. 00:25:01.153 --> 00:25:02.942 So it was a keratin protein powder. 00:25:02.942 --> 00:25:07.654 Keratin is a protein that's in our hair, skin, and nails. ~ it's very high in cysteine. 00:25:07.654 --> 00:25:08.980 So the thought was hey, if someone's taking ~ keratin protein powder, Mm. 00:25:12.496 --> 00:25:26.108 really high in cystein, that may be able to support the body's natural Antioxidant response. In a number of ways, cysteine has direct effects as well, but potentially increasing levels of glutathione. 00:25:26.108 --> 00:25:35.489 Since that paper, and since that time, what we know now know is that both glycine and cysteine appear to be limiting for glutathione production, Mm. 00:25:36.307 --> 00:25:43.042 and we seem to get really good effects on glutathione production with supplementation of both glycine and cysteine at the same time. 00:25:43.042 --> 00:25:44.693 ~ So that's Yeah. 00:25:45.719 --> 00:25:55.976 that sort of ~ there's a lot of studies now showing that providing glycine and cysteine will increase endogenous glutathione production and support that antioxidant response. 00:25:54.979 --> 00:25:55.979 Cool. 00:25:55.976 --> 00:26:02.681 But when it comes to glutathione, the l a lot of the foods that we consume will contain glutathione. 00:26:02.681 --> 00:26:09.920 ~ Well little known fact is that mushrooms actually contain a good amount of glutathione. And they also contain another sort of important sort Seven. 00:26:12.126 --> 00:26:14.909 of antioxidant compound as well that they're very high in. 00:26:15.405 --> 00:26:17.116 So mushrooms are great, but it's all over. 00:26:17.116 --> 00:26:19.607 Lots of fruits and vegetables contain good amounts of glutathione. 00:26:19.607 --> 00:26:25.324 I'm pretty sure whey protein is a good source of glutathione, depending on the whey protein that you'll get as well, Really? 00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:39.255 and to contain a bit of that. So so yes, it's the body's master antioxidant, does a huge amount. ~ in general, what we know is that higher levels of glutathione appear to be associated with better health and better health outcomes. 00:26:39.255 --> 00:26:44.037 Lower levels appear to be associated with poorer health and poorer health outcomes. 00:26:44.472 --> 00:26:48.391 Hmm. And so ~ you mentioned it's present in food. 00:26:48.391 --> 00:26:52.108 Are we seeing success with like supplementation with glutathione? 00:26:52.971 --> 00:26:55.333 Yes. ~ yes to a certain extent. 00:26:55.333 --> 00:27:02.348 I don't know a huge amount about direct glutathione supplementation liter literature, but you can purchase glutathione as a supplement. 00:27:02.348 --> 00:27:08.971 However, it's because it cycles between this reduced and oxid oxidized state,~ it's pr you'll I would expect that you'll get better effects Mm-hmm. 00:27:13.459 --> 00:27:16.991 by supporting the body's natural production because obviously you're not, Mm-hmm. 00:27:18.663 --> 00:27:24.482 you know, like if you're taking it in a Anything that you're taking in a supplement form, and so this probably relates to vitamin C as well. 00:27:24.482 --> 00:27:36.567 If it's ~ if you've got any kind of redox biology where it can cycle between two different states, you've got the potential that what you're getting isn't you think you're getting, or that it's not going to be as effective. 00:27:35.342 --> 00:27:36.342 Mm-hmm. 00:27:36.567 --> 00:27:49.113 Right. So my go-to would always be let's support the body's natural response first,~ and then then I'll try ~ supplementing with with direct antioxidants. 00:27:43.277 --> 00:27:44.277 Mm-hmm. 00:27:49.848 --> 00:28:08.857 Gotcha. So is that something you like a use case that again, like an endurance athlete could use after~ I don't know, think of like someone doing like a multi-day stage race or you know close to back weeks of racing, like one a weekend for a couple weekends in a row. 00:28:08.857 --> 00:28:13.282 Like is there a use case there, do you think, to help manage? 00:28:13.953 --> 00:28:20.717 Yes, what most athletes seem to be tending towards is the ~ inacetyl cysteine. 00:28:20.717 --> 00:28:22.112 ~ so that seems to be

the go-to approach, Mm. 00:28:24.179 --> 00:28:29.818 which is providing the cysteine to support the body's natural production Wow. Mm-hmm. 00:28:28.530 --> 00:28:35.457 of glutathione. ~ seems to have quite good effects and purely for that for that reason is that it it's seems to be better to support Mm-hmm. 00:28:36.404 --> 00:28:37.986 the body's endogenous response. 00:28:37.986 --> 00:28:43.098 And then of course now we have supplementing with both glycine and cysteine is appears to do a better job. 00:28:43.098 --> 00:28:49.342 So I think that's what most high-level athletes will go towards. 00:28:49.342 --> 00:28:50.656 ~ at the same, just you know, as I'm talking about all of this too, Mm-hmm. 00:28:53.726 --> 00:29:00.111 as I mentioned, everybody's an individual and everyone has a different life and they come from different backgrounds and they're doing different things. 00:29:00.111 --> 00:29:08.298 And so it could be that one person takes a supplement and they find, hey, I'm getting a huge response from this, this is amazing. Another person takes the same supplement and says this Mm-hmm. 00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:10.421 is no good for me, it doesn't work. 00:29:10.945 --> 00:29:11.945 Mm-hmm. 00:29:11.403 --> 00:29:15.335 So playing around with different things, I would say don't be scared to try. 00:29:15.335 --> 00:29:21.999 If you're going to try different things, don't try them on race day. Try them around race day and experiment. 00:29:21.999 --> 00:29:28.771 ~ I mean, you know, I have horses now and I compete with horses and I do treat them very much like an athlete. 00:29:28.771 --> 00:29:30.824 And so I'm always playing around with different things. 00:29:30.824 --> 00:29:46.842 And the big thing I notice is that what works for one horse and supports one horse is completely different than what works for another and supports And so it's the same for us. ~ And so just, you know, having some fun with it, figuring things out during training. 00:29:46.842 --> 00:30:01.554 I was always, when I was training, I was always the type where I'm going to deprive myself as much in training as I possibly can so that when I get to race day and I'm taking all this stuff, I feel amazing and I can just really go out and just kick butt. 00:30:01.554 --> 00:30:04.625 Right. So that was always my approach. 00:30:02.048 --> 00:30:03.048 Yeah. 00:30:04.625 --> 00:30:06.397 I'm not sure that it was the best approach. 00:30:06.397 --> 00:30:08.239 But that were that was what really that worked really well for me because Ha ha. 00:30:10.361 --> 00:30:11.361 Yeah. 00:30:10.913 --> 00:30:14.628 It gave me a psychological advantage and I was always looking for the psychological advantage. 00:30:14.628 --> 00:30:18.184 I knew that I could push my body through anything, but it was my mind that would let me down. 00:30:18.184 --> 00:30:20.729 So that's sort of what I went for. 00:30:18.878 --> 00:30:19.878 wow, yeah. 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:26.070 That's yeah, very clever. I I think it was~ was Asker Jukendrup. 00:30:26.070 --> 00:30:36.726 He was talking about how Elliot Kipchogi, when he broke the two hour marathon, he like trained to tolerate a certain level of dehydration in his training because they knew he couldn't replace it. 00:30:35.935 --> 00:30:36.935 ~ percent. 00:30:36.726 --> 00:30:44.598 I think they said he lost like I think it was like 11% of his body weight or something crazy, like in the two hour marathon. 00:30:44.598 --> 00:30:52.968 It was something like High, high, high, like compared to what's the literature what says like over two to three percent dehydration, you know, performance impairments. 00:30:52.968 --> 00:30:54.818 He was like three times that or something crazy. 00:30:54.818 --> 00:31:17.186 So ~ yeah, I think that is, yeah, in your training, tolerate and then when you can bring I mean, you still lost a ton of fluids and I'm sure came out pretty dehydrated, but ~ being able to manage that is pretty pretty probably feels pretty good on the day of. the keratin thing you mentioned, mentioning glycine and cysteine is Collagen is rich in glycine, right? 00:31:17.462 --> 00:31:22.906 Yes, it is. It is rich in glycine. I was actually just mentioning keratin keratin. 00:31:22.906 --> 00:31:25.558 So keratin is rich in both glycine and cysteine. 00:31:25.558 --> 00:31:38.157 ~ and one of the things that I'm looking back at the literature, the so a randomized controlled trial supplying keratin protein powder was done, but they didn't measure glutathione production. 00:31:35.288 --> 00:31:36.288 Hm. 00:31:38.157 --> 00:31:42.805 And it would have been really interesting to measure that because armour does Yeah. 00:31:42.671 --> 00:31:44.732 support both cysteine and glycine. 00:31:44.984 --> 00:31:47.467 Collagen isn't as rich in cysteine as ~ as what keratin is, Mm-hmm. Right. 00:31:48.915 --> 00:31:51.547 but collagen's very well known for being very high in glycine. 00:31:51.547 --> 00:32:02.539 But it it if we ~ support or if we supplement with collagen or with glycine in isolation, that doesn't seem to impact endogenous glutathione production. 00:32:02.539 --> 00:32:06.442 So glycine isn't enough. We need cysteine as well to actually support glutathione Mm, mm. Okay. Yeah. 00:32:08.040 --> 00:32:18.531 production. Glycine has a huge number of other benefits, of course, in the bodies, and a lot of people report benefits from taking collagen too, so ~ but I wouldn't use it for that purpose. 00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:34.362 Right. Yeah. That's helpful because I'm sure people thought about that too when they heard you hopeful well, maybe if they're like thinking about amino acids, like okay, so the another thing I wanted to cover with you today,~ I won't name product names, but there is a product that came out. 00:32:34.362 --> 00:32:44.105 ~ we're recording this in end of June, came out in the last I don't know, couple months. I immediately got like a j gazillion emails from

clients about it, like should I take this, should I take this? 00:32:44.105 --> 00:32:49.733 And it was kind of like a liquid form of ~ Broccoli, I guess is the way to say it. 00:32:49.733 --> 00:32:57.176 And they were ~ talking about being able to, I believe, like enhance performance and recovery. 00:32:57.176 --> 00:33:15.325 ~ I thought there was a a targeting of I thought it had something to do with glutathione, possibly,~ but or you know, oxidative stress thoughts on these like bro broccoli, pre-broccoli products helping athletic performance. 00:33:17.656 --> 00:33:27.432 So probably if anybody is super interested, so the the molecule that you're talking about is sulforophane, which of course comes from ~ broccoli. 00:33:27.432 --> 00:33:34.527 Broccoli sprouts get to be really, really high in it. It's an isothocyanate, I think I've said that, correctly your ITC. 00:33:32.355 --> 00:33:33.355 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 00:33:34.527 --> 00:33:38.058 ~ and there is a very well established mechanism. 00:33:38.891 --> 00:33:41.932 ~ and the person to actually follow, if you're interested, is Rhonda Patrick. 00:33:41.932 --> 00:33:43.663 She's done a huge amount of research in this. 00:33:42.530 --> 00:33:43.530 Mm. 00:33:43.663 --> 00:33:47.105 ~ so Found My Fitness is her podcast and she talks a lot about sulforophane because Mm-hmm. 00:33:48.056 --> 00:34:00.553 she takes it all the time. She used to try and get people to grow their own broccoli sprouts or produce their own and you know, eat them in ~ and then she's now she just takes it as a supplement because it's way easier and she has children. 00:34:00.108 --> 00:34:01.108 Yeah. 00:34:00.553 --> 00:34:07.606 But ~ but so so yes, there is a very well established mechanism for sulforophane. 00:34:06.467 --> 00:34:07.467 Mm-hmm. 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:19.043 And what it seems to do is upregulate the NRF2 pathway or signaling response, which is ~ people talk about it as an anti-inflammatory response, it's more of an antioxidant response. 00:34:16.885 --> 00:34:18.525 Mm. Mm. 00:34:19.043 --> 00:34:22.146 It does feed into the glutathione response quite well. 00:34:21.891 --> 00:34:22.891 Mm-hmm. 00:34:22.146 --> 00:34:29.123 So it seems to potentiate glutathione production, signaling, recycling, all of that kind of thing. 00:34:29.123 --> 00:34:30.679 So that's probably one way that it works. 00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:52.418 But there's a number of other downstream effects of NRF2 signaling which~ seem to have multiple impacts in the body and there is some research suggesting that sulfurophane can s ~ can support certain aspects of performance and athletic performance. For example, decreasing lactate production, supporting recovery, all of those sort of things. 00:34:52.418 --> 00:35:03.701 So there is really good, at least when it comes to mechanistic science, so looking ~ in vitro and in cells and things like that, as to its actual mechanism of action, and it does seem to work very well. 00:35:04.344 --> 00:35:26.784 There are also randomized clinical trials or randomized controlled trials that have been performed, so looking at humans and very good methodology, or at least intended to be good methodology, showing that there are effects on like taking sulfurophane as a supplement and then getting ~ beneficial beneficial effects for performance. 00:35:26.784 --> 00:35:31.284 So ~ there is research there, it does seem to be effective. ~ Mm-hmm. 00:35:33.855 --> 00:35:35.905 and and and support performance. 00:35:35.905 --> 00:35:41.070 ~ In terms of specific supplements, I'm not sure which ones are better than others. 00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:42.570 ~ I think that one Mm-hmm. 00:35:47.077 --> 00:35:53.632 of the things so I looked into the supplement that you're talking about and and there were a few things that stood out to me. 00:35:53.632 --> 00:36:01.188 So first of all it's a liquid supplement whereas other things might be capsule~ Whether or not that's better I'm not sure. 00:36:02.190 --> 00:36:07.972 The thing that I could not find any information on is dose,~ in terms of what the actual dose is. 00:36:07.972 --> 00:36:30.721 And and so looking at the literature, looking at what seems to be an effective dose of folforophane, and also looking at what ~ Rhonda Patrick talks about, sort of around that sort of eight to ten to fifteen milligrams per day appears to be really, really good. so if if you are looking for that kind of supplementation or you're thinking about taking sulforophane. 00:36:31.434 --> 00:36:36.201 looking around that dose appears to be ~ quite a bit of dose to take. 00:36:34.572 --> 00:36:41.251 And you said eight to fift eight to fifteen milligrams of sulforophane So eight to sixteen or the isothycyanate thing? 00:36:41.036 --> 00:36:45.056 The the so sulforophane, so if you're taking a sulforophane ~ supplement, Okay. 00:36:45.998 --> 00:36:53.780 the dose of sulforophane that seems to be effective is is like you could say around ten, ten milligrams or something on average. 00:36:51.818 --> 00:36:54.153 Mm. Yeah. 00:36:53.780 --> 00:36:58.621 ~ yeah, so sulforophane is a type of isothiocyanate. 00:36:58.621 --> 00:37:00.954 ~ yeah. There's a number of there's a number of different there's sort of Mm, mm. Gotcha. 00:37:03.623 --> 00:37:05.744 a a group of chemicals or compounds. 00:37:05.744 --> 00:37:07.135 ~ they seem to have different Mm-hmm. 00:37:07.927 --> 00:37:11.048 different actions, but so for fine is the one that everybody's raving about. 00:37:11.735 --> 00:37:12.735 Okay. 00:37:14.048 --> 00:37:20.282 If you've ever tried to buy creatine or electrolytes online and wondered, is this actually legit? ⁓ We got a quick fix. 00:37:20.282 --> 00:37:41.751 ⁓ We built a Fullscript dispensary for Nutritional Revolution listeners so you can shop trusted professional grade supplements that ship direct from the manufacturer, no random third party sellers, no sketchy storage. ⁓ You'll find brands we use with our athletes

all the time like Thorne Klean Athlete, Nordic Naturals, Pure Encapsulations, Designs for Health, Designs for Sport, et cetera, and a ton of NSF certified for sport options. 00:37:42.731 --> 00:37:49.163 Everyone gets 20 % off always, and during promos you can get up to as much as 35 % off, and it's free to create an account. 00:37:49.163 --> 00:37:52.088 If you set up AutoShip, you'll get an additional 5 % off. 00:37:52.088 --> 00:37:55.295 Just open up the show notes and tap the full script link to get started. 00:37:59.978 --> 00:38:01.282 And now back to the show. 00:38:03.197 --> 00:38:20.326 And so kind of like on your kind of circling back in of like your conversation around the ~ direct versus indirect and and kind of like naturally occurring antioxidants, the these products kind of they're claiming to help drive training adaptation and and boost performance. 00:38:20.326 --> 00:38:40.068 And so is that ~ is this gonna fall into the category of like this is a direct o oxid antioxidant or are we able to use this to like help our own bodies processes and we can use this often or should we, you know, use it only at timely sin you know, situations? 00:38:40.414 --> 00:38:45.266 Yeah, so definitely the the second, so the latter, so it's supporting the body's endogenous response. 00:38:45.266 --> 00:38:47.706 It seems to upregulate the NRF two pathway. 00:38:47.706 --> 00:38:48.978 So, ~ so which is supporting a pathway which then goes on Mm-hmm. 00:38:53.208 --> 00:38:56.340 and supports other antioxidant pathways in the body to do their thing. 00:38:56.340 --> 00:39:01.771 So it's more of the using AI as a tool rather than AI taking our jobs. 00:39:00.458 --> 00:39:01.458 Mm-hmm. 00:39:01.771 --> 00:39:07.733 ~ so it's definitely that. In terms of using it every day, it's difficult to know because we don't have the research. 00:39:07.733 --> 00:39:11.480 So A lot of the research that's been done is looking in an acute form. 00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:16.842 So maybe a person or the the group of people were taking it for a week before Mm. 00:39:16.764 --> 00:39:18.494 the performance effect was taken. 00:39:18.494 --> 00:39:27.621 I think there is one study where they looked ~ over the course of a month, so 30 days, and they did see beneficial effects ~ on that. 00:39:22.858 --> 00:39:23.858 Mm-hmm. 00:39:27.621 --> 00:39:32.295 And I think the dose was actually quite high, so around 30 milligrams a day. 00:39:30.130 --> 00:39:31.869 Mm. Wow. 00:39:32.295 --> 00:39:42.025 I think that's correct. so But but in terms of taking it longer than that and over you know, like every single day chronically, Mm-hmm. 00:39:41.429 --> 00:39:44.311 I'm not sure what the effect would be. 00:39:44.311 --> 00:39:45.789 I would suggest that if you were to take it in a more chronic form, Right. 00:39:48.175 --> 00:39:51.550 you'd probably want a lower dose of it because it's gonna you would expect that Mm-hmm. 00:39:52.228 --> 00:39:54.385 gonna build up. With any of these things though, Yeah. 00:39:54.701 --> 00:40:02.447 you know, we can think about caffeine, right? And a lot of people use caffeine as a performance enhancer. 00:39:58.996 --> 00:39:59.996 Mm-hmm. 00:40:02.447 --> 00:40:04.188 It's a very well known urbigenicate. 00:40:04.188 --> 00:40:11.708 It's works really, really well. And ~ it seems like you get the best effects from caffeine if you deplete yourself from caffeine. 00:40:11.708 --> 00:40:15.108 So back to that, I'm gonna deprive myself and then I'm gonna use it. 00:40:13.302 --> 00:40:14.302 Right. 00:40:15.108 --> 00:40:20.210 Deplete yourself of caffeine before race day and then on race day use it and you'll get a massive hit. 00:40:20.210 --> 00:40:22.782 If you are a caffeine sensitive person. 00:40:20.224 --> 00:40:21.224 Rate. 00:40:22.782 --> 00:40:28.327 Otherwise ~ you you know there are some people that don't get a response from caffeine. so I would say that the same th so, Yeah. 00:40:30.775 --> 00:40:44.244 you know, anything that you're using to try and Increase performance, you're probably going to get a better effect by using it you know, as a form higher dose around race day. 00:40:44.244 --> 00:41:00.748 Now, of course, the other side to that or the counter to that is that okay, but I just want to support my adaptation so that actually I'm in a better state consistently ~ leading up to race day, so that when it comes to race day, regardless of what happens. 00:41:01.233 --> 00:41:08.418 Or, you know, even if even if I'm not competing, even if I'm just, you know, training for life,~ then I'm gonna be in a better state. 00:41:08.418 --> 00:41:13.699 And that's something that we just don't really know because we don't have the evidence for when it comes to sulforophane. 00:41:13.699 --> 00:41:15.208 When it a lot of people take sulforophane more as a longevity aid, Yeah. 00:41:18.003 --> 00:41:19.369 ~ for helping to, you know, just support the body's natural antioxidant response Yeah. Mm-hmm. 00:41:22.945 --> 00:41:28.148 to everything in our environment chemicals, toxins, stress, everything coming at us. 00:41:28.148 --> 00:41:34.195 So that might be ~ that might be a reason to take it every day as well. 00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:45.231 It's so fascinating. So with the research looking at like dosing for, like you said, like five to seven days or something before an event with these kind of like concentrated broccoli shots or something like that. 00:41:45.231 --> 00:41:57.240 what do you think is happening physiologically to like help them perform to to pile in all these ~ antioxidants or firing up that N NRF two pathway? 00:41:58.005 --> 00:42:04.150 before when they're probably in like a deload going into or like a decreased training volume going into an event. 00:42:04.150 --> 00:42:09.336 What what do you think is happening there to like load up their system with that to perform better? 00:42:09.905 --> 00:42:15.108 Yeah, so I mean I think a l a lot of it is gonna

come down to that NRF two pathway. 00:42:14.865 --> 00:42:15.943 Mm. Mm-hmm. 00:42:15.108 --> 00:42:21.052 ~ w one of the findings from the research is that it decreased lactate production. 00:42:21.052 --> 00:42:29.639 So it could be that you're just helping to sort of clear all of that so~ you come in very, very fresh. ~ that could be that could be another one. 00:42:26.536 --> 00:42:27.536 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. 00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:35.543 some people have suggested that it's doing things in the mitochondria. 00:42:35.543 --> 00:42:38.744 ~ but that's something we we don't really know. 00:42:36.213 --> 00:42:37.213 Hm. 00:42:39.146 --> 00:42:50.367 from the research. So it could be that, you know, like it's potentiating mitochondrial function or increasing~ mitochondria levels, in which case we can actually, you know, produce more energy and we've got more to do more with. 00:42:50.367 --> 00:43:05.940 ~ overall the mechanism's not really,~ not really known. ~ I think that the the best established ~ the thing that we could hang our hats on the most is probably more to do with lactate production. 00:43:05.940 --> 00:43:14.693 ~ It does seem to be a little bit as well where it's supporting ~ the body to maintain blood glucose level. 00:43:14.693 --> 00:43:16.945 So we're not getting such a drop in glucose. 00:43:16.945 --> 00:43:25.418 So maybe it's happening more at the glucose use, lactate production, cycling back to pyruvate. 00:43:25.418 --> 00:43:29.085 Maybe it's something to do with with that, Hmm. Wow. 00:43:27.420 --> 00:43:36.485 where it's really having the majority of its effect, which I'm not sure how that links up to ~ supporting antioxidant function. 00:43:37.666 --> 00:43:38.824 I'd have to dive deeper into the literature for that, Yeah. 00:43:41.443 --> 00:43:45.802 but ~ yeah, at this point don't know exactly why. 00:43:45.802 --> 00:43:48.347 but it does seem to be doing something. 00:43:47.347 --> 00:43:48.347 Yeah. 00:43:49.994 --> 00:43:53.047 Very it's so fascinating. I think it's such a fascinating area. 00:43:53.047 --> 00:43:56.739 ~ okay, well, I wanna be mindful of your time here. 00:43:56.739 --> 00:44:19.543 And I know we ~ I we had a listener question come in to the and this is ~ with regards to your amino acid research, which is probably a whole other podcast we could have you come on and talk about too. ~ but someone asked ~ if they are using protein powder, should they still be taking a branched teen amino acid or an essential amino So the very annoying answer to that is it depends. 00:44:19.543 --> 00:44:23.706 in general, I would look first of all so so lots of things. 00:44:23.706 --> 00:44:26.889 How old are they, what kind of training are they doing, Mm-hmm. 00:44:26.487 --> 00:44:34.134 how much are they using, what's their overall dietary protein intake, so many different things. Let's assume that they're using a whey protein powder. 00:44:34.134 --> 00:44:36.434 ~ so we know whey is a really rapidly digested,

Mm-hmm. 00:44:37.637 --> 00:44:42.900 highly absorbable form of amino acids, so it's gonna provide the body with all its distinctions amino acids. 00:44:43.371 --> 00:44:51.226 And they're taking a whey protein powder, and overall their dietary protein intake is pretty high, so they're getting a lot of dietary protein, and they're using whey as a supplemental form. 00:44:51.226 --> 00:45:03.315 In that situation, we don't need additional essential amino acids or branch chain amino acids. ~ the whey protein is very rich in branch chain amino acids, it's gonna give you everything that you need. 00:45:03.315 --> 00:45:12.581 Now, what about a person who may be trying to lose weight or trying to burn body fat? Right? They're trying to shred, they're trying to lose, they're trying to work towards. 00:45:12.851 --> 00:45:43.829 a goal, ~ we know in that situation that higher protein intakes can be hugely beneficial for maintaining lean mass at the same time that we reduce body fat. ~ so and and it can be very difficult to get all of that protein in. So taking an essential amino acid supplement might be very beneficial for that. So we're supporting, you know, for very little effect on satiety or or calories, we're supporting the body's ability to sort of ~ maintain our our muscle mass and simulate protein synthesis and and everything. 00:45:43.829 --> 00:45:52.896 Because what happens in a energy deficit is that all of the protein that you're consuming isn't necessarily going to go towards supporting muscle. 00:45:52.896 --> 00:45:56.083 A lot of it's going to be used for energy because our body is looking Great. 00:45:56.528 --> 00:46:05.853 for extra energy. The other situation where essential amino acids can be really important is perimenopause, menopause aging as we move towards those states because we need more protein Mm-hmm. 00:46:08.599 --> 00:46:11.070 in those states. Our body isn't using it as effectively. 00:46:11.251 --> 00:46:14.583 As it does when we're young. So that can be really ~ good as well. 00:46:14.583 --> 00:46:21.885 and then any case, you know, immune challenges, sickness, any time where we might need more. 00:46:21.885 --> 00:46:28.733 I'm not a fan of brunch chain amino acids by themselves,~ purely because the the key outcome that I'm looking Mm. 00:46:33.451 --> 00:46:39.731 for is muscle support. ~ and We can't build muscle just with the branch chain amino acids. 00:46:39.731 --> 00:46:42.751 We need all of the amino acids or all of the essential amino acids. 00:46:42.751 --> 00:46:52.708 The reason why people would take branch chain amino ch branched chain amino acids for exercise is that it was shown that actually during exercise we will use a lot more of the branch chain amino acids. 00:46:52.708 --> 00:46:57.070 We will oxidize as and we'll burn those for energy ~ during exercise. 00:46:57.070 --> 00:47:02.103 So it was thought if I supply extra BCAAs to my body, that's going to support me in general. 00:47:02.103 --> 00:47:22.992 But actually ~ one of the sort of ~ Godfathers of protein research, Robert Wolfe, he wrote a really good paper on this looking at whether theoretically ~ going sort of into the detail of the biochemistry, our branch chain of amino acids actually going to do what we think they're going to do. And really overall, no, Mm. 00:47:24.253 --> 00:47:29.715 if we're trying to really support our muscle,~ we need all of the essential amino acids to do that. 00:47:29.715 --> 00:47:34.896 The other time when I would look at using essential amino acids. 00:47:30.177 --> 00:47:31.177 Fascinating. 00:47:35.293 --> 00:47:37.614 is for specific purposes beyond muscle. 00:47:37.614 --> 00:47:42.978 So ~ anything like people talk about using glycine or something like that. 00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:39.079 Mm. 00:47:42.978 --> 00:47:52.739 So that's where we can target specific amino acids for different purposes in the body. Glycine can be really effective for ~ mood, for example. ~ yeah it can it can sort of work in in that way and~ yeah. 00:47:54.695 --> 00:47:57.367 for calming and some people take it for that. 00:47:57.367 --> 00:48:01.030 it can be very beneficial for cardiovascular health outcomes. 00:48:01.030 --> 00:48:09.831 ~ we could also look at things like ~ hyrosine or specific amino acids that might work on dopamine production. 00:48:09.831 --> 00:48:14.356 ~ So there are lots of different areas that we that we could take it. 00:48:14.356 --> 00:48:15.815 ~ Yeah, but I would always favour an an essential amino acid over That's cool. 00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:21.050 a branch chain amino acid. 00:48:19.989 --> 00:48:20.989 Yeah. 00:48:21.829 --> 00:48:23.909 Awesome. I love that. I think that's super helpful. 00:48:23.909 --> 00:48:26.789 okay, I'm gonna jump back to your two truths and a lie. 00:48:26.657 --> 00:48:27.657 Yeah. 00:48:26.789 --> 00:48:44.735 You told us that you did your PhD on protein myostatin and ~ that you have seven horses and compete in eventing with two of them, I think you said, and then competed in endurance mountain biking successfully in New Zealand and Canada. I thought the PhD in myostatin was the lie. 00:48:44.735 --> 00:48:47.146 Is that which one was it? Was that right? 00:48:48.177 --> 00:48:51.137 No, I actually, I only have six horses. 00:48:51.137 --> 00:48:54.719 Well actually I only I only have five horses. 00:48:52.641 --> 00:48:53.641 Yeah. 00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.860 We have six on the property. One is not ours. 00:48:57.860 --> 00:49:01.541 ~ and he's actually pretty much a wild horse. 00:48:58.592 --> 00:48:59.592 Wow. 00:49:01.541 --> 00:49:04.003 ~ nobody's ever been able to do anything with him. 00:49:04.003 --> 00:49:09.081 So we just look after him and and love him and ~ let him do his Yeah. 00:49:09.422 --> 00:49:17.735 Aww. ~ but you did endu like a successful endurance mountain biking in New Zealand and Canada. That's awesome. 00:49:16.192 --> 00:49:24.248 Yeah, yeah. So~ I don't do that

anymore. I had to choose between horses and mountain biking, both a very time and money intensive sports. 00:49:24.248 --> 00:49:25.255 ~ but yeah, I got into mountain biking and I was doing probably eight hour races Right. 00:49:30.054 --> 00:49:34.556 is where I is where I found my my real skill. 00:49:33.344 --> 00:49:35.378 Wow. Yeah. 00:49:34.556 --> 00:49:48.355 Yeah. and loved that. But ~ but I actually, you know, speaking of of maintaining things and overreaching and overtraining, my My kryptonite was overtraining and underfueling, Yeah. geez. 00:49:47.420 --> 00:49:49.083 so very common. 00:49:49.898 --> 00:49:52.661 Yes. Yeah, d it is definitely very common in the endurance space. 00:49:52.661 --> 00:49:56.967 ~ okay, well, what's coming down the pipeline for you the rest of this year? 00:49:56.967 --> 00:50:00.092 Any papers coming out? Any conferences you're gonna be presenting at? 00:50:00.472 --> 00:50:14.951 Yeah, so busy. So at the moment a lot of my ~ a lot of my research, protein research, I'm involved in sort of a I guess a an expert forum that comes together once every while. 00:50:14.951 --> 00:50:16.192 It's called the Protein Summit. 00:50:16.192 --> 00:50:18.039 ~ group of reachers to get together and ~ look at the state of protein research cool. 00:50:20.313 --> 00:50:23.925 and and put out ~ put out papers associated with that. 00:50:23.925 --> 00:50:27.038 So of course those papers won't be coming out for probably another twelve months. 00:50:27.038 --> 00:50:29.599 ~ but there'll be a lot of work coming out of that. 00:50:29.599 --> 00:50:39.164 So that'll actually be really interesting if we think about where protein is at the moment and all of the talk around protein and the controversies and things. So that's gonna be very important. 00:50:39.369 --> 00:50:44.958 moving forwards and sort of helping to see where protein will be going in the future. got a bit of research, Yeah. 00:50:46.273 --> 00:50:51.432 ~ so most of my research is ~ amino acid and protein metabolism Mm-hmm. 00:50:51.916 --> 00:50:56.125 and using mathematical modelling to look at that and understand Wow. 00:50:55.858 --> 00:51:01.282 the mechanisms involved. So that sort of I've got that going on. 00:51:01.282 --> 00:51:06.152 We've published a few papers, so I'm looking at the next step, which is really No. 00:51:05.407 --> 00:51:08.949 looking at imbalanced intakes and and how those work. 00:51:08.949 --> 00:51:13.090 And ~ that's something I'm collaborating a little bit with Dr. 00:51:13.090 --> 00:51:17.543 Church on. ~ so we we sort of talk a what a little bit about that. 00:51:14.188 --> 00:51:15.188 cool. 00:51:17.543 --> 00:51:18.760 and then and then just can constantly sort of trying Yeah. 00:51:22.173 --> 00:51:27.262 to communicate around protein and amino acid metabolism and and put Mm-hmm. 00:51:28.047 --> 00:51:39.112 you could say the truth out there or helping people to understand ~ how to make their way through all of the stuff that's coming out in social media and and the misinformation Yeah. 00:51:38.594 --> 00:51:50.501 and what's actually true and how to use protein to support themselves rather than cramming their bodies full of protein ice cream, do I need to do that? How do I actually figure out what's gonna work for them? 00:51:48.342 --> 00:51:53.534 Yes, yeah. Protein chips, protein popcorn, yeah. Protein. 00:51:52.873 --> 00:51:56.753 Even though even though it's it's nice, it's isn't it? 00:51:56.753 --> 00:51:58.769 It's I don't know, it's a way to sort of eat eat sweet food without necessarily Yeah. 00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:05.380 feeling guilty, whether or not it's the right thing to do. 00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.355 Okay. Yeah. That is true. 00:52:05.355 --> 00:52:07.947 ~ well that all sounds super fascinating. 00:52:07.947 --> 00:52:21.900 We will be linking ~ the papers we talked about today in the show notes for the listeners. And ~ and then yeah, if anything comes to mind too from from you, Carlene, that we covered, ~ definitely we'll we'll make sure we share it with listeners. Where can they find you, follow you? 00:52:22.704 --> 00:52:27.068 LinkedIn is where I'm the most prevalent I suppose. 00:52:27.068 --> 00:52:28.719 ~ Dr. Carlene Starck on LinkedIn. 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:31.972 So ~ so that's where I do most of my communication. 00:52:31.972 --> 00:52:41.320 I am fingers crossed in the next month starting a YouTube channel ~ just to get more things out there. ~ so that's me getting off my butt Amazing. 00:52:42.851 --> 00:52:46.547 and actually and actually doing it, getting over myself. But ~ and then I'm also on Instagram, Yeah. 00:52:49.027 --> 00:52:54.086 ~ although that's a little bit less prevalent than than LinkedIn. 00:52:53.503 --> 00:52:54.503 Yeah. 00:52:54.086 --> 00:52:56.255 So Okay. Well, we will link those below. 00:52:56.255 --> 00:53:05.521 ~ depending on when this goes out too, you'll have to share your YouTube account with us because we can link that in the show notes too for the listeners to go follow your Yeah. 00:53:01.876 --> 00:53:04.271 Yeah. I'll use this as my accountability. 00:53:04.271 --> 00:53:05.271 I'll have to do it now. 00:53:05.521 --> 00:53:08.833 Yeah. Awesome. Well, this has been absolutely fascinating. 00:53:08.833 --> 00:53:10.217 I really appreciate your time. 00:53:10.217 --> 00:53:13.014 ~ thank you so much for joining us, Carleen. 00:53:13.099 --> 00:53:14.436 Thank you for having me. It's been great.