TRANSCRIPT 🔗
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People just want to know what it's like to be me.
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How does it feel to see a dead body? Tell a family their loved one has been murdered, talk to a rape victim, catch a killer and get them to confess. Hold on tight, my friends. Get ready for the journey. And welcome to murder with mannina. Hello, everyone and welcome to another edition of murder with mannina.
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Colleen just hiked or walked 18 Miles is that right?
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Today was 18 Miles yesterday was 20 miles. And the day before that was 15. Tomorrow, I think is 15. When I have 15 miles, it feels like a vacation.
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That's crazy. And so she was telling me just before we started this that she's sore, and I'm like, Yeah, you should be I would be absolutely sore.
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You know, somebody said, you know we're doing a half marathon or more half marathon or more a day for 30. I'm on a 34 day route right now, because I'm taking two days. I'm gonna take two days in Leone and two days in a store go before I go, the last stretch, which is Alesia into Santiago, so I am. I mean, I'm currently really on a 32 day route, except that I chose to take up flex day just so I can catch up on some stuff. Because at the end of every day, Chris, I'm so tired. I can barely get anything done. Yeah, I was just mainly walking every day is what I'm doing.
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Yeah. How do the bottom of your feet feel? Yeah, hurt.
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Hurt so bad. But one of the new friends I met on the Camino told me that I need to ditch my hiking boots and buy tennis shoes. So Oh, not tennis shoes, but like Hoka Hoku.
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That's what I run issues. That's what I get to Leone. I think I'm gonna do that. Okay, because nothing because my feet have hurt for two weeks now. Yeah, they're life changing. So I just got on to them probably a couple years with running and they are absolutely life changing.
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Absolutely. Fantastic.
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Okay, so I'm going to do that. I wish I had known about that before I started the Camino. But whatever, live and learn. All right, well, we're still in October. And as everybody knows, it is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And what I find interesting is when people ask me all the time, oh my God, tell me about your career. Tell me about your runs.
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What was the most scariest, I always say it's domestic violence runs, it's the most common for us. Probably, I would say like, when I look back at my career, I'm like, I just feel like I was running from domestic run to domestic run. But statistically, I guess, country wide or whatever 40% of the runs that police officers get street officers get are domestic. And, you know, we could sit here and analyze the different elements of domestic violence. But at the end of the day, they're just very, very emotional. And why they are so dangerous. And I think I've said this before is, of course, you're walking into someone else's home, and you don't know the dynamics of their home. But I think what makes it even more dangerous is very rarely is it the people inside the home that call the police.
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It's a neighbor, especially in apartment complexes, it's people that hear a disturbance, so that when the police arrive, they're surprised that we're there. And then that becomes a very emotional type of thing for both the victim but also the perpetrator when they didn't call the police themselves and the police show up. And that's when it can get a little violent, because I think they know that they've done something wrong. Someone's called the police, and then they want to fight us. And that seems to be the first reaction. So that's another reason why it becomes so dangerous. And then of course, just love and emotions, make these make these cases. So anyways, I want to speak to what's the other side of it, though, when the when the victim? How does the victim typically react when you show up and she hasn't called or he hasn't called?
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Well, so I mean, there's a it's, I mean, it's dynamic, and it's complex, sometimes very relieved, because if you're getting there, when it is literally going down, they're scared, and they've been hurt, probably. So they're relieved to see us. And so that first initial when they see you, it's a relief, right, the police are there to save you. But then as it goes on a little bit further, and hopefully, the tensions kind of subside a little bit, and we try to gain control of the situation. And he's a little bit calmer and she's a little bit calmer. Then another set of fear comes into her right, the fear of is he going to jail, and what is he going to do to me if he does go to jail, and he can't go to jail because he pays all the bills and he will lose his job.
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So all of those different dynamics, it's like almost a it's kind of a slow You're watching tornado approach, right? Like it, the wind is blowing, and there's a lot of emotions and you can kind of see in their face that they're going through the checklist of this is going to end bad, you know, if he goes to jail, it's going to end bad if he doesn't go to jail. And then of course, you throw the dynamic of children involved in it, they're there, and they're crying and screaming, it's just such a, it's just such a horrible, horrible situation for obviously, the victim and the children, but for the police to, to walk into, so I can't stress it enough. And if you've been following our podcast, and you've heard the last two episodes, we've gotten a lot of comments about that episode with Don and the situation with their brother. And then of course, you're playing the 911 call, and all of the kinds of different dynamics that you hear from that we've gotten a
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lot of positive feedback with that. So I'm glad that we did it. But just to throw a little bit of statistics, and this is just kind of, you know, just put things in perspective, on average, 20 people are abused physically, by an intimate partner every minute. So let's think about this podcast every minute, you know, we're on here for, I don't know, 30 or 40 minutes. So more than 10 million victims annually, or abuse 1/3 of women. And then of course, 1/4 of men are abused. And of course, we don't hear about men very often. And then it's just it's just every month average of 70 women are shot and killed by an intimate partner, four and a half a million is that just in our country, Chris, just just in our country, and four and a half million have been threatened.
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And of course, it jumps up a considerably when there's a gun in the home, right? Obviously, so it's just when you throw those statistics out, it's just very, very, very upsetting. And then of course, on average, that a woman will leave, on average, seven, six times, will leave and come back. And on the seventh time, statistically, they decide that that's when they are going to leave for good. And then of course, that's when it's the most dangerous for women, it's when the perpetrator because you teach people how to treat you, right. So if I beat you, and you leave, and you come back, you've taught me that I can beat you, you're going to leave and you're going to come back on the seventh time, something, something clicks and the perpetrators braid, that you are absolutely leaving for good. And then that's when it becomes the most dangerous for women. And that's when they get killed. And this whole joke about protective orders. And it's such a joke to me, right? It's a piece of paper that says don't be around this person. And and you know, they go in and get a protective order. And that's good. I mean, that's, we're going to tell you to do that. But at the end of the day, it's a piece of paper.
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And if you're relying on your partner for income, and you're relying on them to pay your bills and those things, you're violating that all of the time, right, because they're around and they may still be living in the house. So protective orders, you know, it's a good place to start, it allows law enforcement to go and arrest him, if there's a protective order active, and he shows up. But at the end of the day, you've got to remember that absolutely. It's just a piece of paper. And we tell people and Don can attest to this, you know is that you have to have a plan, when you've decided that you're going to leave. Again, it's the most dangerous time make sure that you have a plan. Either be you know exactly where you're going, you've got money saved, you've got a bag safe, you have a plan, instead of leaving, in the midst of a situation and you know, like you can leave when it's calm. You've just decided in your brain that I'm done with this. Don't leave on the night that you've gotten really beaten, beaten bad. And you've decided, okay, this isn't what I want to do anymore. You see the difference? Because the plan?
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Yeah, I mean, a lot of it's common sense.
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So I mean, I would I would imagine the safe house, the houses for abused women and mothers would be imperative in most situations, right? Because most of the time, the the victim, I don't, I want to say the women but women, but it's not always women, but the victim. If they go to a family member's house, then they're in also endangering that family member. Right? Because the man will come after what there's no protection there. So really a safe house for one of those homes for domestic abuse is seems like really, in most cases, the only safe really way to go, right and of course, if you could set something up with a friend out of state, I mean, that's when we mean a plan it's gonna take it's gonna take a while and that would help as well. So when we talk a little bit in what as I was thinking about this episode and thinking about what I kind of wanted to educate on or talk about, and of course police officers. It's one Have the more dangerous things in 2013 officer and this was this is what the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, Rod Bradway responded to a domestic disturbance. And the neighborhood called it was an apartment complex. And he heard the woman screaming. And on these types of calls, they send two officers, but we're not together, we're not in the same car. So you're hoping that you kind of arrived there at the same time. Or maybe you'll wait a little bit to get out of your car until you know that he's close, or she's close your backup as close. But long story short, he went in, he heard her screaming and he went up the steps and he didn't have time to wait for his back up. And he ran up the steps to literally save her. And as he made entry into the door, the perpetrator was standing right behind the door and shot him in the back of the head and killed them. Okay, but in that, and that's in that scenario, he had held her captive for several hours in the apartment. And this was a literally like a case of she is calling for help, or a neighbor had heard that she needed help.
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And the police just decided to, you know, break down the door and get in and save her. And then you know, he obviously paid the ultimate price. And then again, on September 9, of 2022.
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In the middle of the night, a woman you know, I think we've talked about her, I told you a little bit about it. I'm sorry, in the middle of the street, a woman was beheaded. In California, it was a domestic situation.
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And the kids were inside the kids were inside the home, it was a domestic situation. They were going back and back and forth. He's the father of one of the children.
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He
was schizophrenic. There was a lot of turmoil going back on text messages, she was going to out hammer something about abusing some children, it just escalated, escalated. And in the middle of you know, in the middle of the day, he just decides to go and literally behead her. I mean, talk about it doesn't get any crazier than that. I mean, that's, that's horror movie stuff. So, you know, I just find myself a lot of times trying to teach my students and to tell people that, you know, when the red flags are there, believe them because they're, they never get better. I tell my students, if he hits you once, or she hits you, once, he will event he will continue to hit you. It's never one of those things where you get hit once and they're like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. That will never happen again. That's never the case. never the case.
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And it's interesting, isn't it?
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Well, it's interesting, when I asked my kids, and these are 1718 year old kids that I'm teaching, you know, and they're in abusive relationships, they're like, well, he's only done it once. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's gonna happen again, you know, and, and some of them will stay after class and talk to me a little bit about it. You know, but and we go over the phases, right? Like, the phases are really kind of basic, it's tension building, right? And you learn it, you learn it, it could be as simple as he walks in, and the door shuts a little bit harder, you know, whatever, you start to learn that stuff. So you got the tension building the violent episode face, right?
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We're the actual violent is happening. So that phase, so tension, Violet, and then of course, the remorseful and the honeymoon stage, you know, and it's like, I see that I see a couple of my kids and their faces are like, Oh, my God, like I've been through those, those stages. So it just makes it really, really difficult. But I just really want to educate that. If the if you're hit once you are continually be hit now, maybe be it a month, or a couple months, or a week or tomorrow or whatever. But it never just ends with once.
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Also, you've also said to me that if somebody threatens to kill you, they're capable of killing you.
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Well, they will. I mean, statistically, statistically, that's the case. And I learned that when I was a domestic violence detective, and then of course, in my career, you know, especially when I'd show up on Homicide scenes, it was a domestic decision, or domestic disturbance that led to the homicide, you'll always hear a family member go well, he said he was going to kill her. It's like damn people, you gotta believe it when people people tell you those types of things.
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But that but also that you had also made the distinction when we were talking that it even if somebody hasn't been physically violent, if they have threatened to kill you, they are capable of killing well, like I'll say, all the time, people everyone's capable of killing, and it's just a very, very thin line between the people who do it and the people who don't do it. Because the people that don't do it, it's the people who threaten it are way more likely to be the people who would actually snap and absolutely and you cannot just disregard or take for granted the emotions that go into domestic situations. And just, I mean, yesterday, you love this person and today you want to kill them. I mean, it's just that quick. It's literally like flipping a switch sometime. So you know, you just and another thing you have to remember is that the justice system is not going to protect you. There's only so much least can do, there's only so much that pieces of paper. And as I stepped away from doing law enforcement on a day to day basis, it just it really just hits me in the face a little bit more is that you've got to be your own protector, you've really got to, you've got to just learn to take care of yourself and look for red flags and make the decisions and realize that when you're in a domestic situation, or any intimate relationship, that emotions are a stronghold, and they don't allow you to always think, you know, rationally with your brain, right? I mean, it's your heart. But I tell people all the time, it's just like, you've just, you've got to be your own advocate for your safety, just like you're your own. You know, you need an advocate, when you go to the doctor, you've been diagnosed with something, you've got to be your own advocate, you've got to ask the questions for the doctors, you've got to protect yourself, you've got to know what the red flags are, you know, you've got to believe it when people when people behave a certain way, and when they tell you certain things. So probably the worst case on the street for me, and I feel like I've had so many. But when I really just start to kind of like sit back and breathe and think about different situation. I had responded to a domestic call about one in the morning, and you always know right, bam, at what in the morning, there's going to be alcohol, or there's going to be drugs involved, you just you just know.
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So my partner and I arrived, at the same time dispatch was telling us it was a violent, and that there was a knife involved, okay, so they're trying to get as much as the information to us so that we are as properly prepared to know as much as we can, when we're walking into a really violent, unknown situation. When dispatch was giving information out to us, we can hear young children screaming in the back. So they are talking to the caller. And then we hear, you know, from the mic that they're screaming children in the back, and you can kind of hear dispatch, just like there's children involved, is there weapons involved, like they're trying to get all of this information. So we knew that we were
walking into something that the victim had said she had been sad, stabbed several times. So the victim was the one calling the police.
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You're hearing kids in the background screaming, she's able to tell dispatch, that she had been stabbed several times. And then I had recognized the address I had been to that address before. And a good police officer, you know, when you hear and it takes a while, but a good police officer, you know, it rings in our head. Oh, shit. I've been there, you know, a bunch of times. And it did it ring like a bell that had been there before. Dispatch advise officers had been there earlier in the night for a disturbance.
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So officers had already been there, but they were there before my shift started. So okay, now we know that this is this is escalating, it's continuing to go on. And what the hell happened in the first?
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Yeah, the first time the officer so we pull up about two houses before the House. And the reason that we do that is we're trying not to be target, right? We want to walk up on it. We already know officers have been there earlier in the night, we already know a knife is involved, we already know that the victim has been stabbed, we already know that there's children in the house, we want to put ourselves in the best situation. So we park two houses before and we walk up. It allows us to, you know, kind of get our bearings together and allows us to hear what we're what we're walking into. And we're not as much as a target. You know, maybe we have the surprise effect on the suspect. So with what with guns drawn. I get to the porch. And there's a little girl standing there. And I remember kind of scrunching down and whispering to her that I wanted her to stay on the porch and kind of walk toward the front yard. She had her little teddy bear with her.
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And she was pointing inside the house as she was little she was probably only two or three but she's holding on to this teddy bear. She's got the look of fear. I'm trying to whisper and of course we know right at one in the morning. When the police arrived it were threatening.
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I've already got my gun drawn.
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I'm in full uniform, you know, and I just kind of scrunched down and I just say walk to the front yard. Medics had arrived.
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But what in these type of situations medics arrived down the street, they won't just go into the scene we have to deem it safe. So medics are arriving because we know that we have a victim that staff but they're not going to walk in until we have secured the scene. We clear the house as quickly as we could and then we had so we can get the medicine as fast as possible. She was on the living room floor. When we walked in and she literally was bleeding out. It was a gruesome crime scene. She's on the middle of the floor, literally bleeding out. But we've got to and we could tell she's been stabbed several times just from the blood from the information that we got and then I can see it but we have to go in and Clear the house. Do we do a deal with her?
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Do we clear the house, we need to clear the house so that the medical people can get in, right? Like it's just such a dynamic situation. I just so we clear the house and everything's cleared. And I literally said medics can come in. So they come in and I and I remember this like it was yesterday, I remember that the medics literally jumped in, saw her or ran and saw her and literally picked her up about as quickly as they could threw her on the gurney and ran out of the house.
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And you know, that's bad when they're not even assessing the situation. That's how much blood there was. My partner called for homicide, obviously, because the blood loss we know, you know, with that, and seeing that amount of blood that this is possibly going to be a Doa or 10. Zero subject is probably the most blood I've seen in my career. And then I'm a street officer, I'm at a homicide detective. And that is just, that's just a little bit disturbing to see that much blood, like you see blood and I've seen blood before. But when you see that amount of blood, and you see it kind of just thickening, and it's just everywhere, and it's smeared.
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And just, it just is such it's just such a huge mess. So I then went outside, and I'm looking for that little girl, right? And she saw her mother, you know, being rushed out, right? I mean, the trauma. And so I tell her to come with me, we've secured the scene. We know the suspect isn't there. The medics have gotten the victim out. And now I've got this little girl and I told her to come with me. And she was sitting in my police car with me. And she then asks me, did you see my brother? And I was like, because for whatever reason dispatch didn't ask or I didn't hear it. Or I didn't I don't know. It was just such a chaotic scene. But she says was my brother in there and I went holy shit. And I said, How old is he and she said to and you have to mind you, this entire scenario is probably going on within 60 seconds to 120, maybe two minutes, I jumped out of my car in sprinted inside the house, searching and searching for this little guy, which felt like forever. And then I heard crying. He had climbed in, oh my God, I'll never forget this. He climbed into his toy chest. And I opened up the toy chest of the lid of the toys chest, in his face was just frozen. And I grabbed him up about as quickly as I could. And I literally ran to my police car and put him next to his sister. Right? I will. I just couldn't believe it when she looked at me and goes, Did you is where's my brother.
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And I'll never ever forget his face. Like I'll never forget his face when I opened up a little toy chest. And the sad thing
about obviously, this whole incident is horrible. But this is not the first time this has happened. I mean, he he was a little guy. And he literally, I think it was two, he climbed into his toy chest. So he knew that he needed to protect himself. mom ended up surviving, she did survive, she was stabbed 11 times with a steak knife. He literally got a steak knife out of the kitchen. You know, and so I went to it just it was such a disturbing scene. And I didn't know that night, that his face that I saw when I opened up the toy chest would would kind of follow me through my entire career because every time I'd go to a domestic call after that, I would do a better job searching.
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Right I didn't think for to say I was searching for the suspect.
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I wasn't searching for other kids. And what these kinds of runs teach you is like, wow, you know, you can Monday morning quarterback, oh, we should have done that. But I'll tell you, that little kid taught me to look in every small place and make sure that we have everybody outside of the home, you know, firefighters do it dispatch, you know, how many kids are in the houses or dog? Like there's always those questions and somehow, with the immediacy and the horror of this call, I miss dispatch telling me or I miss or maybe they didn't know, who knows. But that kind of followed me and I didn't know, you know that. I remember learning that that night that some of the most dangerous people that we come in contact with, you know, are the ones that we love. You know, the ones that just said probably the day before I love you. Or, you know, I'm so happy to be with you. But you It's so crazy to me because and that's what I learned as a detective too. It's like, you know, the day before they they we were fine. And then today he stabbed me 11 times with a steak knife. So, you know and as the investigation went on, we call for domestic violence. And of course you know, we already knew that they had been their officers had been there earlier in the night right and This isn't the first time the kids the kids showed me that the little grinder teddy bear for some safety and security and the little guy that a little two year old jumps into a toy chest.
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So, you know, I think the point in all of this is a couple things. Domestic violence calls are super, super dangerous, obviously for the victim and the children involved. They're super, super dangerous for officers when they arrived because you were dealing with so many dynamic situations because I remember trying to search that house so quickly for the bad guy so that the medics could come in and try to save her. And that's it tunnel vision, right tunnel vision of oh, I didn't even ask, are there other children I just knew I was looking for the suspect. And I wanted him out of the house as quickly as possible so that we could get medic personnel in there to try to save her. And I remember thinking I can't believe that she survived this case because of the amount of blood that I witnessed so so a lot a lot of lessons learned for me on that simple run from a two year old and a seven year old and, and kind of took with me throughout my career dealing with those. So again, I want to end guys, it's so important to listen to red flags, pay attention to red flags, listen to what people tell you take threats about as serious as you can. Thanks guys.
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