TRANSCRIPT 🔗
JonMark: The exposures of some of the foundational figures within the charismatic movement has actually been incredibly destabilizing for many because it goes from John Alexander Dowie, one of the foundational figure, to John G. Lake, to now modern people like Sean Bowles and Mike Bickle, etc. there is a collective betrayal trauma that I think people experience when they discover that some of the foundational figures. That were part of the movement that they were in for decades sometimes have been frauds and they've been lied to. And what do you even do with that information? Especially because some of the brands that were synonymous with you know Revival TM had such an imprint on your own walk with Jesus are now untrustworthy and you don't know what to do with that information. Some people, their prayer life has been completely up-ended because. Bethel music has been a central figure of their time with Jesus, their time of worship. And when there is a betrayal that goes to that level, it really it really is destabilizing. Some people are wondering, how do I even pray anymore? I did a video on my Patreon about this a little bit ago, but I wanted to do something for YouTube about this and give some tools for reconstructing charismatics. And so I'm going to give you in this video some tools that have been helpful for me personally. And so, you know, Now, I I'm not a therapist, I'm a pastor, so you know, take my opinion for what it is. but here are some things that I have found really, really helpful. And the first is expository preaching. Of the Word of God. I'll be honest, when I turn on a sermon, when I begin to listen, and yes, I'm a preacher, I listen to other people's sermons because it's incredibly edifying. There's something to the proclamation of the word of God that is edifying to the soul. And it it is stirring to obedience, and there's there's good things that you can get from expository preaching. And so growing up in the charismatic world, however. You didn't get a lot of Bible sermons. You got Bible sprinkled into a prophetic word that somebody was spouting from the pulpit, or maybe some of their shower thoughts, some things that they thought were really helpful. And here's a little bit of Bible to maybe support, maybe support. Bill Johnson, he has a joke that he would say when he reads a Bible verse, he would say, There, now it's a legal meeting, which is to say that those legalists, they they want you to ha have to read a Bible in a sermon. And, you know, I I love the Bible too, but you know, it's not that serious, is kind of the joke. And I think that that actually plays in this crowd because There isn't a high regard for the centrality of the scriptures in the pulpit. And I think that expository preaching tethers the preacher to the word of God to say, I'm going to go verse by verse. I'm going to teach what the Bible actually says, not my shower thoughts and not my prophetic word or revelation. Is there a place for prophecy? I'm still a continuationist. Yes, there is a place for prophecy. Is there a place for like I had this thought, and I think it's important, and maybe the Holy Spirit is highlighting something. I still have room for that, but it's just not the what the sermon is for. The sermon is for the proclamation, the teaching of the scriptures for the edification of the church. you know, this is edification, by the way, is building up. First Corinthians three talks about the fact that we are God's. Temple, his building. And anyone who builds with gold, silver, and precious gems, their work will stand. But those who build with wood, straw, and stubble on the day of fire, their work will be revealed for what it is. And in one sense, I think that what the charismatic movement is experiencing is a day of fire, where the wood, straw, and stubble that we've been building with, these prophetic words that have been filling the pulpits that actually don't build up the church. They just puff up the church. Suddenly that is being revealed for what it is. And I think that preachers would do well to go to expository preaching, to, to teach the word of God and to allow the word of God to build up the church. And putting prophetic revelation, those things in its proper order in submission to what should be primary, which is, which is the scriptures. I think that that's going to be very grounding and very healing. So my next tool is the proper use of music and emotion in prayer. In our charismatic subculture, the purpose of worship honestly has been to have an emotional high that we equate with the presence of God. Now, I still believe in the tangible manifest presence of God. You can't mimic it, you can't fake it. There's something too when the presence of the Holy Spirit permeates the atmosphere. Like I you know, some of my audience, they're reformed Baptists or they're cessationists, and some of you might even know what I'm talking about. It's like it I I can't describe it other than my grandma used to say it's better felt than tell, you know? And so that's that's what it's like. Like God is in the room. That's what Changed me. I had an encounter with the presence of God, set me free from some of the stuff that I was struggling with when I was when I was a young man. And so Jesus, I I want his presence, but I think sometimes we have created this experience as being the the pinnacle of what it is to have a spiritual life. It's it's to feel the feels, right? And we'll often listen to kind of droning music that goes on and on. In an attempt to work up an emotional lather. And honestly, I think that we've erroneously equated that emotional lather with the experience of God's presence. And so sometimes in the wake of these betrayals that we have been, you know, these exposures that we've been experiencing, many I think are tempted to completely shut off their emotions as an overreaction. To what is obviously a lack of balance that we've been experiencing within the charismatic
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world. I honestly think that a solution could be that we understand where emotions sit in their priority in prayer. I I think about this from a rhetorical lens. You've got logos and pathos. you need both in order to properly engage with truth with your whole being. So the logos is the truth of the gospel. But you know, I'm not going to just contemplate atonement theory and think that that is going to be the thing that leads me into prayer and and to worship in gratitude and thanksgiving. I have to take time to awe over. The atonement, awe over what Christ has done for me, to awe over God's grace, his majesty, his power, his omnipotence, his omniscience, everything about him that makes him who he is is praiseworthy. And it's not enough for me to just say, God is praiseworthy. It's another thing for me to actually praise him. And that is an engagement of the emotions, which is a another part of who I am. It's one thing to go and look at the Declaration of Independence, you know, and it's the original document, you know, that Thomas Jefferson penned with his own hand. And you could look at it in the museum and say, wow, that's the Declaration of Independence. Or you could just look at the words, read them and say, Yep, that's what I read online. You know, all the same words. There's there's two different aspects of beholding truth. And I think that music and emotion. Properly situated helps order the affections to actually awe over Christ, awe over the gospel. And that is the proper use of emotions. But some of us, because our emotions have been manipulated in order to cause us to be deceived or to lead us into blind fidelity to a movement that you no longer trust, suddenly it's like, I don't trust those emotions. Those emotions are not safe. I'm going to go to a place that is shoes emotions. And I personally am going to shun my own emotions. And I think that that is an understandable trauma response. And I understand why people would do that for a time. I honestly don't blame them. but I would maybe humbly suggest that in doing that, you're actually shutting off part of what it is to be human. Because to be human is not just to be a brain on a stick, it is. It is to be a whole person. And I believe that the gospel should be enjoyed. It should be relished. It should be savored with the whole person, your emotions, and your reason. And that is where I think music actually plays such a wonderful role because it begins to speak to the emotions what is truth. So, as I said before, you could contemplate atonement theory and God's grace. wow, God's forgiven of a lot of things, and I'm thankful for that. That's good. But it's another thing to sing before the throne of God above. I have a strong and perfect plea, a great high priest whose name is love, whoever lives and pleads for me. Man, like I, the the melody of that song, the the lyrics of that song are so. Stunningly beautiful. They capture my spirit and make me want to worship and praise the Lord with
all of my being. And that's what music properly ordered should do. It should be, it shouldn't be this vacuous droning that's like I'm going to sing the same word over and over again. There's some songs I could name-check here that I, you know, I won't because I'm gonna destroy your your favorite song, I'm sure. But you can fill in the blank with whatever charismatic worship song is just the same word over and over again or the same phrase over and over and over again. And the point seems to be to work up an emotional lather for its own sake. And that's where I think charismatics have gone, gone amiss here. We have thought that the emotional high was the spirituality we were seeking. But really, what it should be is communion with God. We've thought that that emotional high was the communion with God. and I think that in sometimes it it really is. I don't want to denigrate those times that you might have had with the Lord, the times I've had with the Lord. But if truth is not communicated, you're not actually connecting with the Lord, I believe. the apostle Paul, when he's talking about praying in tongues, he says, I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing with my spirit, I will also sing with my mind. I think that what he's talking about are these two. Aspects of who we are. We want to connect on the emotional level and we want to connect with truth. And those things need to come together. And I'm I understand I'm kind of paraphrasing and maybe taking what he said out of context a little bit, but I do think that there's a principle there that can be extrapolated and applied to this situation. and so it's important to have our emotions properly ordered. So some people are like, yeah, I don't know, but engaging singing in prayer, it's not even safe for me to do. I don't know how I feel about it. I would just maybe encourage you in this in this direction. I know some people like Bethel music is totally out because you just don't trust that movement anymore. Either there's an emotional trigger or there's theological reasons that you might have. Personally, I still sing some Bethel songs, not because I endorse them, but because the the actual content of the song is solid. So there's a song like No One Like the Lord, which excites feelings of awe and and majesty and worship. And like I just want to declare how worthy and powerful, omnipotent and great the Lord is. And that's a great song. I I'm not gonna stop singing it and you can't take it from me. I understand that there's some people who don't want to support Bethel through CCLI money or other things of that nature. I get it. I totally understand. so I thought of maybe here's a couple songs that I think are really helpful. you already know them, I'm sure, but they have been helpful in my prayer life. And for those of you who are wondering, well, why are you singing so much in prayer? Well, because they did it in the Bible. And it's helpful for me, as I mentioned before, to engage my emotions in prayer. Singing the psalms, singing songs that are meditations upon the themes of scripture and the truth of scripture and the beauty of Christ is absolutely edifying for the soul. That's why the scriptures tell us to edify one another with songs, hymns, and spiritual songs. And so it is an edifying experience to sing spiritual songs. So here are some. I really love before the throne of God above. Shane and Shane's version is great. I love In Christ Alone by Stuart Town and I love Look What You've Done For Me by Tree63. That's a that one goes back to the 90s, early 2000s, when I was just a kid. But I still jam to that one. I I I love it. there's Lord, you're beautiful by Keith Green. Really tons of Keith Green songs are just absolutely wonderful. maybe I'll do another video where I just go through songs that I love and why that I love them. And maybe that'd be if if you'd want to watch that video, let me know down in the comments. But going on to the next tool. So we talked about the proper use of of of singing of songs and emotion in prayer. another tool to help the reconstructing charismatic is this: study the scriptures with solid commentaries. here's why. One of the problems of untangling and filtering out what was true, what wasn't true in the charismatic world is some people don't trust the lenses that they've been handed by their favorite charismatic teachers. And they don't know if they're really reading and interpreting the scriptures accurately. You kind of lose your own judgment because of betrayal trauma. It it really is something that i is disorientating in a lot of ways. So a solid commentary to have with your Bible reading will be enormously helpful. And one accessible option is the new Bible commentary by IVP. And I'll I'll I'll include a link to it. This is not sponsored by them by any means. I don't get any money from that. There's no affiliate there. And I'll also include a link for Logos's Logos Bible Software has a blog, it's like 10 recommended. single volume commentaries. So I'll include both of those links in this video. but a really good method for Bible study that will be helpful for you and edifying for your spiritual life is to take the scriptures one book at a time, pick out the main themes, including the historical and occasional context, and read the text first, then refer to your to your commentary. Sometimes I like to write down my thoughts, what are my notes, compare it to what the commentary says. see if it's revealing some things that I just didn't understand, didn't see. And it helps maybe deprogram where you didn't realize you've been taking that verse out of context. This will help you kind of reprogram when you didn't realize, my goodness, I've been taking this verse out of context my whole Christian walk because this is how it was preached. Because somebody thought that they should preach their own heavy reveal, you know, revelation over what the text actually says. And
sometimes it's done innocently, sometimes it's done on purpose, but nevertheless. You don't always know the difference. And you're trying to understand what the Holy Spirit hand down to the church for all generations for all time. And you need to know that. You need to know that. And so, a commentary will help you dig into that. And you know, the new Bible commentary, single volume. It's really helpful. By the way, the new Bible commentary, it's like got contributees like Leon Morris and Douglas Moo, and they have experts in particular books contribute the notes for those books within the single volume commentary. Really great. So when I'm reading the scriptures, I'll pick out the book, pick out the themes, I'll dig into what the text actually says. And then prayerfully, I'm going to ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to me, help me to believe it, and then help me to obey it. I want my scripture reading to make me more like Jesus, not just puff me up with more knowledge. And so that means that at the end of my study, I want to have something that I'm like, God. By your grace, please help me to be more like you in this area. As the scriptures say, knowledge puffs up, but love builds up, right? lots of people in this movement think that reading the scriptures is just a means to get your heavy revy, your your mysterious, mystical interpretation of the scriptures. And because that's what you've heard your favorite charismatic leader do with the scriptures from the pulpit. So you're like, well. Wow, that's what you're supposed to do with your Bible time, is find these mystical hidden revelations. And so you strain to find symbolism when really what you should be trying to understand is what did the Holy Spirit intend through the intent of the author? And I loved this about what John Wimber used to say all the time. you know, the charismatics are looking for the for the meat, right? They think that the meat is this mysterious knowledge that gets revealed. But John Wimber said, the meat is in the street. That means that what he what he's saying is that the meat that leads towards maturity is actual obedience to what you've learned, the scriptures say. You find that actually, if all you have is a a simple devotion to the truth of the scriptures and an honest attempt by the grace of God to obey what Jesus has taught and not just be a hearer, your plate will be full enough of meat. I'll tell you, it will be full enough of meat. And so the meat is in the street. don't be discouraged if you're looking in the Bible and you can't find all these hidden mystical revelations because you know, honestly, they're not there. And you've been misled into trying to find those. Instead, what you should do is read the scriptures to find what Jesus was trying to say to the church. All right. another tool that is going to be really, really helpful for you. Is going to be a solid community. So join a church that has healthy small groups that you can actually have people that are your age and from differing age groups. You want to have the broader range of generations because there's gonna be people older than you that are gonna have wisdom to pour into you. You that's invaluable. You need that. You need community with people who know your life, can hold you accountable. You know, I cherish my friends that when we get together, we talk about the Lord, we talk about spiritual things, not spooky spiritual things, but real spiritual things. You know, how to have a healthy marriage and how to be a good husband. this has been really, really beneficial for my spiritual walk. Real community is gonna be good. So join a solid church that teaches the Bible and has small groups. Maybe it's a huge church and they've got small groups where you can be part of a community there. Or maybe it's a church that's small enough by God's grace to have a real fellowship amongst the the saints that are there. And you can know your pastor, and and it's healthy, but it's small. And praise God for that. you want to be part of a church that has real community, real accountability, and real, real fellowship. Look, you become the company that you keep eventually. And so connect with people that are further along in their walk with Christ than you are. Be around people that are more Jesus-like than you, and you're going to become like them. It's really essential. It it's part of the Christian walk. We're not supposed to be just me in a Bible, me and Jesus, and that's it. Like the Christian life is meant to be lived in community. That's why there's all these. Love one another, bear one another's burdens, you know, bear with one another, put up with one another's faults, like all of these one another, you can't actually do alone. And you can't I'll I'll say this, you also can't do it if you are just hiding in a sea at a megachurch and not connecting with their small groups, not connecting with the real community that's there. you should have a you should have friends at church. You should have a church that you can have friends at. It's gonna be really important for your spiritual walk. another tool is patience. Be patient with yourself. A lot of people feel like their compass is completely spinning. They don't know which end is up, and they feel like they're gonna feel this way forever. And I just want to encourage you that you're not. you're gonna heal. Things are going to improve. And be be patient. and understand that God is using this time of disillusionment to break up that this is actually Jason Upton said this in a speaking of charismatic, I actually am still a Jason Upton fan, but Jason Upton said this in one of his songs is like the thing I love about disillusionment is it breaks up the illusion, and you know, that's true. Like it breaks up the illusion. When you are disillusioned, you finally it's like you have an opportunity to see the world in a new way. And maybe you'll become blind again, but maybe by God's grace, the spirit of
truth will lead you into all truth and you will grow to become more Christ-like. my wife says that as I've been going through some of this deconstruction and reconstruction of my own journey with Jesus and analyzing what needs to be rejected and and what needs to be kept. My wife says I've become a better husband and father because I've rejected the revivalism trap that was just about like spirituality is a means to ob obtain revival and it's revival at any cost. And if that's the if that's what I need to do, then my family kind of takes a back seat over the next really, really exciting revivalist event that I need to be at, r next really, really exciting conference that I need to be at, or else. And my family has suffered because of the mentality that I had towards serving Christ, what I thought serving Christ really was. But as I've been kind of reconstructing and reprioritizing what's really important, I'm realizing the kingdom of God is lived from the inside out. And, you know, you don't necessarily need to go through all this deconstruction and reconstruction in order to land at this place. But I found that the stuff that I was hearing that was being taught like you need to prioritize your family, love your wife, and all this stuff. It was being taught from these pulpits, but the structure of life was such that it it made it impossible to actually do that. And so now I'm in a place where the most important thing is my family. And maybe you know I'm telling on myself a little bit here, but fine, you know, I'm telling on myself. I'm growing to be more Christ like as I have been just analyzing and questioning Sifting out what needs to be retained and what needs to be rejected. And so living the kingdom life from the inside out has had a really good effect on me, on my mental health, and on my wife and my family. So God is using even these feelings of betrayal and disillusionment, some of the trauma, to make me more like Christ. And I thank God for that. now I also want to say. Another tool, and I I ask you to be patient with me as I share this. Another tool is going to be forgiveness. Now, forgiveness for some people has been weaponized to mean, you know, let your abuser off the hook, you know, let the person who deceived you off the hook, and that there's no accountability. But that's not what I mean by forgiveness. In fact, what I mean by forgiveness is a confident trust in God's ability and righteousness to judge rightly. scripture says in Romans 12, 19, Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. For it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. God is a God of vengeance. He's a God of justice, and he will bring justice. And if I can trust that he will bring justice, I don't need to take that into my own hands. I can release that to the Lord. And that doesn't mean I trust that person never again. That doesn't mean I ha need to have a relationship with that person ever again. It means that I'm not holding on to the need to get revenge. that's the difference I think between a healthy version of forgiveness and a toxic version of forgiveness. It's like the toxic version is like just let that person back in your life, you know, and if there's if you forgive and then there's nothing there. And so if there's nothing there, what's keeping you from letting that person back into a position of trust and Obviously that's toxic and leads to dangerous situations, but real forgiveness is healthy for the soul. If you're holding on to this this rage, it's not going to it's not going to result in in a healthier you. It's not going to be pleasing to the Lord, there's a reason that the scripture says, be angry and do not sin and do not allow the sun to go down on your anger. Do not give the devil a foothold. The devil can have a foothold in our lives and in our communities if we allow rage and and anger to fester with within us. And so listen, I'm not a therapist. I'm just a pastor. I'm just telling you what I believe the Bible says about this. And so this is not a lecture. This is just a tool that can help you to heal. forgiveness is important. And just because you may no longer trust the person who told you that forgiveness is important doesn't mean that the Bible doesn't say that. And so yeah, hopefully you can hear me with patience on that. there's a few additional points that I could point out. It's one is name the trauma that you've experienced accurately. And I honestly think that religious trauma syndrome is what some people are wrestling with. Institutional betrayal is a real thing that's been studied. Jennifer Freed has written about betrayal trauma, and she's actually talked about institutional betrayal trauma and even applied it to churches who When they knew what the right thing to do was to hold somebody who was an abuser to account, chose instead to protect that abuser, somebody who is the victim experiences a secondary trauma of betrayal from the institution in which they trusted. And I think that we're dealing with that on kind of a global scale within the charismatic movement. there's this institutional beh betrayal trauma. Do I trust this movement? that did not hold false prophets accountable. you know, people who had committed SA did not hold them accountable. and, you know, exposed people to risk again. I think that that needs to that needs to be dealt with. so there's there's a trauma that people experience because of this. And so I I think reading up on some of the literature, getting some Counseling, getting some therapy, even if you weren't like a direct victim, but you're dealing with I don't know whether I can trust this again, it might be worth looking into getting some counseling and sorting through this with some professional help. you know, find a reputable counselor. But it's gonna be it's gonna be helpful for you, I think, especially if you feel like this is affecting my ability to go to church. This is affecting my ability to trust even my family, this is affecting a a whole lot of trust issues. You you might have some trauma that you need to sort through. And it's it's worth taking care of yourself, taking care of your your mental health, because taking care of your mental health is taking care of your spiritual health. allow yourself to experience the full range of emotions that are extant in scripture, all throughout scripture. You see the psalms. There's psalms of lament, mourning, anger, these impregatory psalms, right? And you know, there's there's all of these psalms that are meant for expressions of the soul to the Lord in order to come and and be close to him. Allow yourself to experience those emotions and bring them to the Lord in prayer. that's gonna be very healing. So there's some books that I think would be helpful for you. There is Bully Pulpit by Michael Kruger. Diane Langberg has written extensively. There's loads of literature that I recommend that you guys read, Something's Not Right by Wade Mullen. there's there's a lot that you can read and you'll find it very healing as as you read through it. So listen, you don't have to take my word for it. I'm not an expert in this field. I'm just a pastor, somebody who's reading the Bible, somebody who's wanting to help people who are in a similar situation to me with some things that I have found very healing and very helpful. So hope that this episode blessed you. There is a link to the Patreon if you want to support this podcast, down in the description, as well as links to some various resources that I mentioned in this podcast if you're wanting to explore further. I pray that this episode bless you and I'll see you in the next one.