Full Transcript for Disrupting the Transition

both of you 39 00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:50.240 share and play with in different ways, which is the 40 00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:58.840 nature of transition. And I it's interesting because first Nick, 41 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:01.599 I think you start off by the idea that we're 42 00:03:01.599 --> 00:03:04.319 already in a transition, but it's kind of a crappy 43 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.120 transition and tradition which which isn't going how we want 44 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.520 it to go. And I would think in certain ways 45 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:12.599 I think here, I think you share some of that 46 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:16.919 so thedea that we're already in a kind of traditional moment, 47 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:19.639 but it's it's maybe something to be fought over. So 48 00:03:19.639 --> 00:03:21.199 can we talk a little bit to start to start 49 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.599 off at about that that idea for transition. 50 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:28.000 It sounds good. How do you how do you want 51 00:03:28.000 --> 00:03:29.599 to how do you want us to get into it? 52 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:31.319 You know you have to do some traffic light control. 53 00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:32.719 And because there's two of. 54 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:38.360 Us, Oh okay, uh, well you go first, Dick. 55 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:42.719 Well, it's like it's a good question, and I think 56 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.319 it's it is, at least in my mind, is like 57 00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.240 three bits to it in terms of how I main transition. 58 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:52.199 And I sort of say three bits because I'm not 59 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:56.159 particularly I'm kind of like an x philosopher in the 60 00:03:56.199 --> 00:03:57.520 sense of it, I don't really have a lot of 61 00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:01.159 time for the PI the philosophical niceties of the concept 62 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.199 of transition itself. Like I kind of tend to think 63 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:06.479 of it in three ways. And the first is that 64 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.199 we're in the midst of a sort of unraveling of 65 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.039 a particular stable climate state, and it is in a 66 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:19.120 transitional period. We are going through a transitional phase. And 67 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:22.000 the transition the idea of being in a transition, being 68 00:04:22.040 --> 00:04:23.800 in a war of transition, at least for me in 69 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:25.680 the beginning, you have to start with that sort of 70 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:31.319 that sort of ecological reality that things are not stable anymore, 71 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.800 and that throws up a series of must be academic, 72 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:43.560 it's a novel events and novel sort of contextual and 73 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:46.560 political economic challenges to the whole thing. So the first 74 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.639 thing is we're in the middle of a climate transition, 75 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:52.959 and that's a really big atmospheric sense, and there's also 76 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:57.759 the rest of the global environment unraveling as well. But 77 00:04:57.800 --> 00:04:59.800 that's kind of the first one. The second one is 78 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:01.560 and I think this is maybe one of the ones 79 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:05.120 whereas more contentious is that actually, honestly, like I understand, 80 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:09.680 there's lots of the traditional sort of environmentalist sort of 81 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.000 line that there is no transition happening and we have 82 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.839 to decry the lack of action, and then there's no 83 00:05:14.959 --> 00:05:17.519 movement and emissions went up last year and et cetera, 84 00:05:17.560 --> 00:05:20.240 et cetera. But I think if you take a like 85 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:25.399 a like a sort of a sober reading of the economics, 86 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:31.079 the legislative frameworks, political frameworks, ideas, that sort of whole ensemble, 87 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:39.959 there is an actual change in the regime of capital underway, 88 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:41.800 and like I kind of in the book, I call 89 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:44.519 it the transition economy because it's kind of it's not 90 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:47.399 a final state, but it is one that's being built 91 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:52.560 out with state support in the ruins smoking ruins of neoliberalism. 92 00:05:52.600 --> 00:05:55.600 So I kind of mean both an ecological sense and 93 00:05:55.680 --> 00:06:01.839 in a yeah, there's an actual change in capitalist organization 94 00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:04.800 and regulation underway. And I think the third one, and 95 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.000 I think this is maybe like a really just because 96 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:09.079 I'm not a very good philosopher, like a really bad 97 00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:11.079 reading of bram scheme, Like there actually is a war 98 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.959 of there's not just position in maneuver, there's actually something else. 99 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:16.879 So what do you do when everything else is in flux, 100 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:19.560 everything else is changing, when everything else is sort of 101 00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:22.120 in the process of disorganization. I think a period of 102 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.680 transition is one where everything becomes immediately political and sometimes 103 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:29.240 very random things become very political, very rapidly. So there's 104 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:35.360 a breakdown in that stable ordering of spheres of culture, economics, politics, 105 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.959 because everything, like the most random things can become immediately 106 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.399 contestable and political that might take on it. 107 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.000 So that was like when

people say that there is 108 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.160 no transition is happening tradition there is understood as being 109 00:06:49.199 --> 00:06:53.680 a deliberate, intended plan movement towards to something else. Rather 110 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:55.000 than a thing which is just happening. 111 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:57.839 Yeah, I mean we can get into it later on. 112 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:01.399 Like I think people have misunderstood what the transition climate 113 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:03.600 change is just a means to an end for businesses. 114 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:07.079 It's the objective is to a still economic growth after 115 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.000 a really long period of economic stagnation. Like that's the objective, 116 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.040 and then like we chip over ourselves to like is 117 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:16.519 it real? Is it not real? Is it really reducing commissions? 118 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:18.759 Is it not? Well, that's not that's not the point. 119 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:21.360 That's kind of like that's it's one of the aims. 120 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.959 That's kind of like a secondary aim like it's but 121 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:27.560 it's kind of it's subordinate to the principal aim, which 122 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.800 is to drive innovation, investment, the renewal of industries, the 123 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.480 development of new contracts, some new kinds of green rent herism. 124 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:40.360 It's like it's it's that's the main bit of it. 125 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.079 So in that, I mean, tradition is really actually a 126 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:50.079 process that is attempting to reinitiate a process of capital 127 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.439 accumulation or capital valorization. Would that would that connect to 128 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.199 what you talk about as bullshit abundance? 129 00:08:00.160 --> 00:08:01.879 It would do. Yeah, But let's stick to transition for 130 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.319 That's what I'd say, is because I agree when when 131 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:08.680 it raised the idea that like that there's a couple 132 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.319 of crises going on at the same time basically, and 133 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:16.040 so accelerating sort of ecological crisis is one of those two. 134 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:18.680 The other one it's probably more actually, but like the 135 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.959 other one would be economic stagnation. I think like that 136 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.439 is like this, there's an overlap between those two. You know, 137 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.560 obviously they compound each other to one degree or another, 138 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.759 because like one of the effects of climate change in 139 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:36.960 particular is just like increasing costs of everything basically just 140 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.399 like building, do you know what I mean, which obviously 141 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:44.919 you know, acts as as a form of exacerbates sort 142 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.440 of the economic stagnation would perhaps we put it put 143 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:52.000 it that way, basically, I'd probably add something else. So 144 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:55.759 I probably think i'd add like a demographic crisis or something, 145 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:58.559 which is also at the same time. It's not caused 146 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:00.799 by those two, it sort of interacts of them basically, 147 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:02.919 which is like an aging population. It's like a real 148 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.080 big problem. And that goes back to that previous book 149 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.919 Generation Left. You know, the the future looks different to 150 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.080 you depending on how much how long you think you've 151 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.480 got of that future yourself basically, and also just because 152 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.759 of like you know, the way that the structure contemporarytructure 153 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:23.080 of capitalism means that you know, wealth and assets are 154 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.639 you know, generationally dispersed to some degree, which adds a 155 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.360 such certain political block, which adds inertia basically to any 156 00:09:30.399 --> 00:09:32.840 attempt to try to try to change things in a 157 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:35.759 direction that we'd like them to go in. We'd probably 158 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:38.799 put it something like like that basically, But if we 159 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:41.840 think about economic stagnation and like climate change, they can 160 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.120 bound each other. But like you know, and at least 161 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:47.360 at least if the the sort of like raw way 162 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:48.960 you might think of it is that the solutions to 163 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.120 those are intentions they sort of put in different directions. 164 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:55.000 What's the what's the solution to economic stagnation, It's increased 165 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:58.679 economic growth. So you can, you know, if you can 166 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.559 do a climate an energy source transition, you can try 167 00:10:02.559 --> 00:10:04.240 to solve those two things. We seem to have given 168 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:07.440 up on that one basically, and you know, we're just 169 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:10.480 based well, these factions are capital are just going into 170 00:10:10.519 --> 00:10:14.559 an accelerationist sort of like you know, let's let's what 171 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:17.240 you have to give up basically when you if you 172 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:20.799 just embrace increased climate change, what you have to give 173 00:10:20.879 --> 00:10:23.960 up are like universe, any any potentials that universalists sort 174 00:10:24.000

--> 00:10:27.720 of solutions to this, you have like particular exclusionary positions. 175 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:30.960 Basically you have fascism. Basically, that's one of the links 176 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:34.639 to it, to this, I think. But I think that 177 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:39.960 like the failed of the unpleasant capitalist transitions we've got 178 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:44.679 going on, don't exhaust the possibility of what transition can 179 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:50.000 be basically because one of the things, like the transition 180 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.919 opens up, it opens up, you know, it opens up 181 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:55.960 a temporal dimension to politics, which means that you can 182 00:10:56.080 --> 00:10:59.960 escape from the present basically the eternal present of capitalist 183 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.519 and put it something like that. Particularly like it opens 184 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:07.080 up a temporal dimension to like the strategy. Right, So 185 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:08.919 it's like at the minute, we're caught in like a 186 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:12.240 politics which is I have a firefighting I you know, 187 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:14.759 we rush from one crisis to the other with the 188 00:11:14.759 --> 00:11:17.440 attempt that we might ameliorate them more likely on the left. 189 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.200 Now that leads itself to just like a moralistic politics 190 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:22.720 where you basically just sort of bear witness to each 191 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:27.000 crisis whatever and say, well, I object. And that's because 192 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:30.720 you know the space of possibility in the space of 193 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:33.600 possibility of like you know, social economic and political possibility 194 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:38.720 is always constrained under any particular configuration, but like at 195 00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.200 the minute, it's incredibly constrained, especially if you want to 196 00:11:41.559 --> 00:11:43.879 act on the left, which leads you to fire fighting 197 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:45.919 or moralistic politics, do you know what I mean? And 198 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.000 the idea of transition opens up this idea that you 199 00:11:49.039 --> 00:11:52.960 can act now within a constrained sense of possibility in 200 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:56.200 order to increase the space of political possibility in the future. 201 00:11:57.039 --> 00:11:58.679 And in fact, that you could think of that that 202 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:02.039 as another way of thinking of transition, basically adding a 203 00:12:02.080 --> 00:12:07.159 temporal dimension to to politics. And if we thought about 204 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:10.240 transitioning that in that way, we thought about the current 205 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.879 conjuncture in that way of like, what are the temple 206 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:17.120 dimensions to this? Like, I think that opens up another 207 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:21.360 way of understanding what the current conjuncture or the current 208 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:26.279 iteration of capitalism is basically and why and why, like 209 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:30.279 you know, any sort of like change towards even decalbonization 210 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:34.759 seems to be so stalled and so difficult. And if 211 00:12:34.759 --> 00:12:37.320 we think about like that, the key sort of instruments 212 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.559 of contemporary capitalism, apart from data centers, it would be 213 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.799 things like you know, like debts, like assetization. By that, 214 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:48.679 I mean like, you know, the tenancy even capitalism, like 215 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.159 Thomas Picketty points out, et cetera, towards sweating existing assets 216 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.440 rather than creating new assets. But you could also add 217 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.639 like like financialized capitalization of new assets, so data centers, 218 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.879 et cetera. That all of those are like claims on 219 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:05.080 the future. There are claims on future earnings. And when 220 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.759 you claim in those future earnings, you also use structuring 221 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:10.799 the future or you're encumbering the future, as that new 222 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:15.519 Timothy Mitchell book puts it basically, And so that that's 223 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.399 that's the ward of transition for me. It's like who 224 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.840 the transition is? Who can who can control the future basically, 225 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:24.360 And so like in the in our book, all of 226 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:26.559 that leads us to say, like, you know, the key 227 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.840 battleground is over the is over the control over the 228 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:32.720 investment function. What who decides what gets invested in? What 229 00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.879 of the imperatives that do that, and like what are 230 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:38.480 the forms of like capitalization, et cetera, which allow that 231 00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:45.240 which which investment decisions then fulfill, et cetera. Feel that 232 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:45.759 makes sense. 233 00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.960 One of the things I've been really struck by over 234 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.039 the past few months or maybe past year, and maybe 235 00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:54.720 it shouldn't be surprised at all, but it has been 236 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.720 the speed and the thoroughness which the UK Libor Party 237 00:13:59.039 --> 00:14:01.399 seems to have a better any sort of pretense to 238 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.240 caring about about sustainability or collogy at all, and and 239 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.360 it seems to have been basically all net zero targets 240 00:14:08.919 -->

00:14:12.759 almost immediately. But it sim the reason maybe maybe I've 241 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.159 understand this incorrectly, but since to be part of the 242 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:19.639 reason why that's happened is but how effectively certain right 243 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:25.200 wing forces have frame issues around zero as being almost 244 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:28.639 an involuntary austerity of like, oh, yeah, you're not gonna 245 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.919 have Hamburgers or cars, and you want Hamburgers and cars, 246 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.519 don't you, So like how could we have net zero? 247 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:38.799 And it seems to be that there's interesting ways in 248 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:43.639 which questions around transition are framed around almost exclusively in 249 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.159 these kind of ractory cultural politics, around questions around what 250 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.519 you would have to give up in a material sense 251 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:54.600 in order to achieve the world not becoming an uninhabitable healthscape. 252 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.919 I mean, I'm just jumping because like so one of 253 00:15:01.000 --> 00:15:03.279 the things, one of the promises I made myself and 254 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:06.000 I wrote when I finished the book. Is because like 255 00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.159 when you write a book, it's like you do like 256 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:10.759 it's years of work and writing and research, and then 257 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:13.200 the actual writing of the book takes like a absolute 258 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:17.919 shed ton of time. I'm restraining my inner Australian to 259 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:22.679 just lash out into curse words in endless stream, which 260 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.600 is just familiar and comfortable to me. But I'm going 261 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:27.480 to accept it up my comfort zone and not be 262 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:29.639 dis really crass. But like, it takes a lot of time, 263 00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:32.799 but there's a temptation to park it and put on 264 00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:35.039 the shelf. But one of the things I've been trying 265 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.440 to do is to continue the research work of the book, 266 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:39.799 and I sort of sort of set up a sub 267 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.039 stack where I kept I'm going through little aspects of 268 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.639 the book itself over time, and one of the ones 269 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:47.200 that came up one of the things that's come up 270 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:50.200 a lot in the continual research because I live out 271 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.440 in Suffolk in the countryside. For listeners who don't know 272 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:57.639 where Suffolk is, Suffolk is imagine nowhere and then go 273 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.960 further out somewhere else towards more or nowhere, and it's 274 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:05.039 pretty much there and on the eastern bit, the bumpy, 275 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.159 little bumpy bit of the island that's England, the we 276 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.759 England's part of the island. And one of the things 277 00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:15.360 that's happened here is is it's this is a real 278 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.120 sort of battleground, but not a normal battleground. It's it's 279 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.039 it used to be a real conservative heartland, but it's 280 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.960 now a battleground between the Green Party. It's like, on 281 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.200 one hand, who are obsensibly the most left wing party 282 00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:31.399 in the UK, sorry, in in England. I'm not going 283 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.120 to go speak for the rest of the countries in 284 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:38.120 the our glorious Kingdom and reform on the right. And 285 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:39.799 one of the reasons this a bit of a long 286 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:44.120 winded winding is because they've been trying and I emphasized, 287 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:47.840 trying to use net zero here to generate a new 288 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.519 kind of constituency and they're trying to do it in 289 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:52.960 the same they're trying to replicate their playbook around migration, 290 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:55.960 and I get to it in a secondment, it's not 291 00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:58.480 working for them. And we saw that last set of 292 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.639 local elections and May they had to start rolling back 293 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.759 some of their e reetric and that's coming apart at 294 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:07.720 a local level, and there's two parts to it. And perversely, 295 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:10.720 I don't think I like I would have a year 296 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.799 ago if you'd said me, why I reformed talk about 297 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:14.440 in net zero? I would have said exactly the same thing. 298 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.000 It's about because they want to try to make it 299 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.960 turn into a kind of austerity. But when we look 300 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:21.680 at what they're doing, it actually comes down to two things. 301 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.720 There's two bits to it. One is is actually how 302 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:30.680 the transition of heavy industry in places like England and 303 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.680 Scotland is in the US is playing out. Which is 304 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:36.799 it came with a series of promises. Like we're talking 305 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.000 before about it's a change of political economy, it came 306 00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:41.640 with a series of promises. It was a series of 307 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:47.400 promises to two men by men about manly industries, about 308 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:49.599 restoring It was essentially as a story of like this 309

00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:53.039 is this green trend, this this inflation Reduction Act which 310 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.640 is called the IRA, which I love. It's like this 311 00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:58.519 all this net zero stuff, it's going to be like 312 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.200 we're going to have hard hats and manliness and like 313 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:06.519 banging things and they'll we steal and like belching thrusting 314 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.200 machines and they'll be awesome and they'll be jobs, and 315 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:14.240 it was just bullshit. And there's lots of technical reasons 316 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:19.279 why it's bullshit. From electrification more often than not leading 317 00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:24.079 to much simpler work processes, saturated global markets, like a 318 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.359 lot of the industries across Europe in particular were export orientated, 319 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:29.759 and without you know, if you lose market share in 320 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.160 China and India, you don't have any more growth. There's 321 00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:34.319 a huge No, there's a lot of factors, but that 322 00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:36.599 all of them in the end package don't mean that 323 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:42.599 those promises of net zero became associated with betrayed promises. 324 00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.279 If you look at the last two elections, the local 325 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.480 and the national one, the number one reason people who 326 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:50.880 used to vote for the Labor Party switched to reform 327 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:55.240 was betrayal. So I think it's actually, at least for 328 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.279 lots of workers. The selling point is that net zero 329 00:18:59.359 --> 00:18:59.960 is a betrayal. 330 00:19:00.799 --> 00:19:03.799 So could that be so simple as like you promise 331 00:19:03.880 --> 00:19:07.359 green steel, but green steel came with less people working 332 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:08.440 in the factory. 333 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.279 Even worse, and this connects to the second. It it's 334 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.599 even worse in that the classic example when I was 335 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:17.440 finishing the book was Tata Steel in Port Talbot up 336 00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.160 in Wales, it was going to close, it was losing 337 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.160 a million, It was losing like a lot of money, 338 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:25.440 like millions, like every day. It was just churning through money. 339 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.559 And the Tata Steel the owner went to the UK 340 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:31.200 government said well, if you give us some money to 341 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:34.599 help us change from coal fired blast furnaces to electric 342 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.000 arc furnaces. Yeah, we use recycled steel. Steel is the 343 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.880 most recycled material on

earth. Like, we've got plenty of 344 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:46.000 We've got more scrap steel in the UK than we 345 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.400 need for raw material. We'll go green and we'll protect jobs. 346 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.240 It will just cost you half a billion quid a 347 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.640 third of the cost. And the UK government starma political 348 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.000 genius was like, yeah, fucking sold. There's gonna be weird. 349 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.359 They're gonna get green steel. Port Talbot was one point 350 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:06.559 five percent of all the UK's emissions carbon emissions, so 351 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:11.759 you know, green win, job win, Like, get in there, fellers. 352 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:15.359 They're now still giving them half a billion quid. Next 353 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.200 day they sacked half the workforce. You just don't need 354 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.920 as many people. So it's even worse because the betrayal 355 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.680 comes not just from jobs not turning up, but because 356 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:28.880 the government's paid for you to lose your job, and 357 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:34.279 now the government technically did protect half the jobs. But 358 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:37.599 that's part of reforms sell, that's part of the is 359 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.119 the betrayals of the promises of the green transition. The 360 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:44.960 second bit, in some ways is is more insidious since 361 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.359 a hangover from neoliberalism. Like at a local level the earth, 362 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:51.559 there are others sell reforms, others cell around here is 363 00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.960 that you know you're posing a wind farm, you're posing 364 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.799 a solar farm. Net serea is gonna cost you money. 365 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:59.039 There's gonna be load traffic zones, like, there's all the 366 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:01.640 all the lockdown crazy is like climate lockdown is going 367 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.200 to trap you in your neighborhood. There's just all this. 368 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:08.160 There was this. There's lots of grassroots campaigns, some of 369 00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:10.160 them anti developments, some of them just whack you, but 370 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:13.720 reformers trying to bring them in. They're trying to bring 371 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:18.480 these two constituents together. And the way it works for 372 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:20.880 local campaigners is that there's lots of disquiet. I don't 373 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.680 want my field paved over, I don't want pylons, I 374 00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:26.000 don't want lots of trucks. Yeah dah, yeah yeah. But 375 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:28.440 it all gets couched if you look at all the 376 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:31.559 leaflets and the websites and the Facebook groups. It's all 377

00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:35.799 using that household budget myth that's underpinned the last like 378 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:39.119 thirty years of government. There's only so much money. Governments 379 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:40.920 have to balance their books, just like you have to 380 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.440 balance your account book, Like if we spend money on 381 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.960 that zero And look, they gave half a billion to 382 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.240 that steel company to scrow over the workers. If you 383 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:50.839 if you didn't give them that money, we wouldn't need 384 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:52.519 to do this thing over here. We could fix the 385 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:54.559 potholes in the road, which is the number one reason 386 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:57.599 people vote for reformers potholes and declining high streets. If 387 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.440 we didn't spend this money on pylons, we could fix you. 388 00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:03.200 We could make sure there was a bank in the 389 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.559 village or a post office that would be open. And 390 00:22:05.599 --> 00:22:09.480 they've tried to use that neoliberal logic, and it's helped 391 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:11.680 that the government constantly talks about how much money it's 392 00:22:11.680 --> 00:22:14.279 spending on green things, thinking this will make greenies happy, 393 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.279 environmental it's happy, and it's used trying to use that 394 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.519 against zero. So it's a kind of a long winded way, 395 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.880 but they're the two things that are operative for reform now. 396 00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.880 It's important to note that it's not working because half 397 00:22:29.960 --> 00:22:34.319 these these you know, these campaigns against wind farms. It's 398 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.200 full of Green Party members, local conservation groups and Friends 399 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.839 of the Earth members. It's like it's a bunch of 400 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.160 people who don't want if you ask them, that we 401 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.720 don't want to lose our only green space in our village. 402 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.799 So people in London can have fucking supercharged much a 403 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.359 lattes and like on their e bios as they zoom 404 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:51.640 around doing like sort of bullshit finance crap, like why 405 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:53.599 do we have to lose our green space for London? 406 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:58.559 That's one of the most common responses. It's also there's 407 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.359 already a million jobs in this kind of that are 408 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:05.680 depended on net zero just here. It's it's it's in Lincolnshire, 409 00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:08.480 one of the places where reforms got the mayor and 410 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.279 the local council. It's like it's one of the biggest 411 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.519 sort of drivers of economic growth. It's growing at ten 412 00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:16.680 times the rate as a sector of the rest of 413 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:21.799 the economy. So in Zense, reforms really trying to mobilize, betrayal, 414 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.079 mobilize this. This is that rant household budget notion of 415 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.359 our government spending works and they're really trying, but they're 416 00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:32.079 already starting to have to roll back where you get 417 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:35.160 these weird things of counselors, Like now reforms new tactic 418 00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:39.160 is to say we're gonna undeclared climate emergencies. We're going 419 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:40.960 to cut net zery spending so we can spend it 420 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:44.720 on flood defenses. That's their new line, is that we 421 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:46.640 need to stop spending money on climate change so we 422 00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:50.200 can spend money on climate change. 423 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.359 Just to emphasize what Nick was saying, there was a 424 00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:58.119 report going around today saying that labors sort of declaration 425 00:23:58.160 --> 00:23:59.839 they were going to they were going to extend the 426 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:07.119 rose Field oil oil field in the North Sea, that 427 00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:09.880 that would they estimate that would that would that would 428 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:15.880 produce twenty seven direct jobs. Yeah, I mean you know, 429 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:17.720 so if you're going to make that the core part 430 00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:21.440 of your rejection of of of green politics, do you 431 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:23.079 know what I mean, you may as well like fucking 432 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.640 open a open a pet shub, fox shopping, fucking leeds. 433 00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.079 You know, it's it's preposterous. So that so that does 434 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:32.799 make you sort of think, well why what what what 435 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:35.079 is it? Then? Well, what's going on? It's not a 436 00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.160 serious economic strategy that there's no economics involved in that. 437 00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:41.599 Perhaps it is something to do political positioning, you know that, 438 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:45.799 to try to trap the Green Party in the eco 439 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.880 rather than the populist part of their their their their strategy. 440 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.759 I don't, I don't know. Basically, I'm going to see 441 00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.240 how it. So it sort of pans out, I think, 442 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.200 is that what you were asking, though. 443 00:24:58.240 --> 00:24:59.839 I'm not entirely sure were imagine you. 444 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.240 Point I went off on a reform tangent. 445

00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:10.640 So I think there are interesting connections there about around 446 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.960 battles around basically the shifting nature of common sense and 447 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.519 how it applies to ecological issues here, and we were 448 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.480 talking about is the way of being reframed as as 449 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:23.440 a sort of a betrayal of certain things people people 450 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.279 were promised in a way what I wanted to get 451 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:29.519 to was also sort of bringing tears writing about different 452 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:32.400 notions of abundance, which a way I think you could 453 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.119 connect in terms of there was a problem around abundance 454 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.599 and jobs, but that didn't happen, and so maybe you 455 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.000 talk a little bit but the different ways in your 456 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:47.960 book you talk about sort of varying conceptions of abundance 457 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:51.319 and how that connects to let's say shifts in a 458 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.759 kind of common sense or or lack of shifts to 459 00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:55.720 common sense. 460 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.960 Or yeah, I mean, in a way the book was 461 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:01.160 was an attempt. One of the aims of the book 462 00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:05.039 was an attempt to sort of sidestep this really stale 463 00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:10.079 debate between ecomodernism and a degro of or degro of communism. 464 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:12.359 It's sometimes put in that sort of in that sort 465 00:26:12.359 --> 00:26:14.359 of way, which is to seem to go nowhere basically, 466 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.400 and so we wanted to use this phrase of abundance 467 00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.119 radical abundance. We didn't know that a bunch of liberals 468 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:24.359 in the US would also try to seize this frame 469 00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:31.799 of abundance to describe the risking of regime. And so yeah, 470 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:33.640 in the book, we sort of make this distinction between 471 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:36.160 bullshit abundance and radical abundance. And we always say that 472 00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:38.880 like this bullshit abundance always goes along with is always 473 00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:42.599 paired of artificial scarcity. Basically, so you have an abundance 474 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.880 of certain things, quite often an abundance of the stuff 475 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:49.559 you don't really need, and like a real artificial scarcity 476 00:26:49.799 --> 00:26:52.759 over the real essentials to live in a flourishing life basically, 477 00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:57.960 and our definition of bullshit abundance, or how we think 478 00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:01.680 bullshit abundance comes about is just be because of you know, 479 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:06.519 the the imperatives and logic upon which investment decisions are 480 00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:10.440 made under capitalism, which is, you know, whatever promises to 481 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:15.000 produce the biggest comparative profitability basically is the thing that 482 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:17.799 gets invested in. And we'd say that, you know, the 483 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:22.079 contemporary form or iteration of capitalism, you know, has made 484 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.000 real DEALNK actually between between those sort that sort of 485 00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:29.000 decision making and like the enrichment of the capitalist class 486 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:32.920 and the satisfaction of like of of working class needs 487 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.319 or just or many people's need something like that, there's 488 00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:39.759 been an increasing bullshitification or end certification of Cory Doctrue 489 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:43.359 sort of puts it basically, like I can really explain 490 00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.559 it by explaining so in you know, the book Radical Abundance. 491 00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:48.559 I didn't write that on my own. It's written with 492 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:51.200 my two friends Cai Hern and Bertie Russell. And we're 493 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.960 involved in like an organization called Abundance, which is like 494 00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.680 a sort of think tank or whatever however you want 495 00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:01.279 to put those sorts of things. But so we've been 496 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.680 involved in actual projects where we're trying to get certain 497 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.480 things off the ground. Basically, in one of those we 498 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:11.119 got invited to this to a project to think about 499 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:13.759 how you can make or to try to get pharmaceutical 500 00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:19.119 production as a commons basically commonly owned and governed pharmaceutical 501 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:23.119 production of medicines, etc. And that that group was like 502 00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:27.200 it's a network across France primarily of the pharmaceutical engineers 503 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:31.359 and pharmaceutical workers got often retired. Then health activists and 504 00:28:31.359 --> 00:28:35.640 that commons activists, et cetera. But like the the impulse 505 00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:37.920 we're getting that together. There were two impulses. One of 506 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.759 them was One of them was the experience of the 507 00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:46.920 COVID vaccines basically, which were public private partnerships. I. All 508 00:28:46.960 --> 00:28:48.920 of the research was done by public come out of 509 00:28:48.920 --> 00:28:52.119 the public money, all of the profits went to the 510 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.079 private firms. Fither five or six billionaires created in a 511 00:28:56.160 -->

00:28:58.920 year because of that. Basically, one of the decisions they 512 00:28:58.960 --> 00:29:03.000 made was that they wouldn't generic copies of those vaccines 513 00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:05.400 to be producing the global South. That probably killed a 514 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:07.960 couple of million people. So that's a moral imperative to 515 00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.920 try to think of another way to do it. But 516 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.480 the other thing that drove it was this real shortage 517 00:29:12.559 --> 00:29:17.720 of common generic drugs right across Western Europe basically and 518 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:21.240 particularly in France, or like paracetamols, massive shorts of paracetamols, 519 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.960 and why it's because you know, you can get producing 520 00:29:28.039 --> 00:29:30.759 paracetamos is profitable, you get like six percent profits or 521 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:33.519 something like that. But like if you have intellectual property 522 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.839 on a medicine and you get sixteen to twenty percent profit, 523 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:40.920 that is the highest comparable profitability. So that's where investment goes, basically, 524 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:44.839 And so you have all of these practices like you know, 525 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:49.960 evergreening drugs, So that's when a company owns the patent 526 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:51.480 on a medicine, but it's coming to the end of 527 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.559 the intellectual property period, and so they'd spend billions trying 528 00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:57.880 to find a chemical combine which will mirror the effects 529 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.359 of the existing medicine. And so basically what you end 530 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.720 up is a bullshit abundance of like profits, but a 531 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:08.200 bullshit abundance of of of drugs that do the same thing. 532 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.240 We don't need them. If there's one drug that does it, 533 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.519 you do you can have that basically, and you have 534 00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.440 a massive shortage of investment in things that we absolutely 535 00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:19.359 desperately need generic drugs, research into new antibiotics, all of 536 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.400 these sorts of things. Basically, like and you in the book, 537 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.160 we trace that that similar dynamic of artificial scarest in 538 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:28.279 bulshing abundance through like a whole series of sectors. It's 539 00:30:28.279 --> 00:30:31.039 just repeated all over the place. Basically. One of the 540 00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.759 things you might draw from that strategically, especially this idea 541 00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:39.400 that there's that there's there's an increase in shitification going on, 542 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:44.559 or there's a withdrawal of provision or a provision which 543

00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.000 has made so expensive it is basically a withdrawal of 544 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:51.039 provision by capital around essential goods from wider and wider 545 00:30:51.079 --> 00:30:54.720 sections of the population. It opens up that sort of prospect, 546 00:30:54.799 --> 00:31:00.279 opens up the prospect of alternative ways of address seeing 547 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:05.319 those core material needs basically you know, yeah, through through 548 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:08.640 commonly under governed sort of production methods and all governance 549 00:31:08.680 --> 00:31:09.839 methods and these sorts of things. 550 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:13.079 Do you think you can use that kind of framework 551 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.000 to almost like respond to the way that Nick was 552 00:31:16.039 --> 00:31:19.319 talking about for the things at port Talbot. So for instance, 553 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.440 rather than being the introduction of green technologies lead to 554 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:26.759 job losses, that's the betrayal being more about like this 555 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.640 is more efficient with this production technique, how can we 556 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.559 use these product product capacities for other social useful ends 557 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.839 rather than it being whether that move being experienced as 558 00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.240 being loss and sort of community damage. 559 00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:44.240 Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, so one of the reasons 560 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:47.319 we've raised this idea of radical abundance is so it's 561 00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:50.839 like this, if you're not going to use like comparative 562 00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:55.240 profitability to guide investment decisions under current conditions, I don't 563 00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:58.519 think you can do that, right, You have to have 564 00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:01.640 another mode of like of working out what you can 565 00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.079 invest in. Basically, so that's a form of various forms 566 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.759 of planning, and we would like democratic planning, and that 567 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:10.119 would be like people getting together and then trying to 568 00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:14.680 understand what they are deliberating upon, what their actual needs are, 569 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:18.160 et cetera, in the process of negotiation through sort of 570 00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:21.599 like various levels of hierarchy of you know, nested sort 571 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.079 of decision making structures so that you also encolude like 572 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:27.640 wider society. And then you also have to include you know, 573 00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.759 non human nature, et cetera. You know that that is 574 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:33.759 the way that's a precondition for like radical abundance, right, 575 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:36.400 And so it's a little bit

like this we cannot 576 00:32:36.440 --> 00:32:42.640 afford anymore. We cannot afford to indulge capitalism's bullshit abundance, 577 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:44.920 basic and all waste that goes along with that base. 578 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:48.039 We need to, you know, under conditions, we need to 579 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:52.160 address resources as directly as possible to human and non 580 00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:57.400 human need. Basically, it's like an imperative, So that means, like, 581 00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:58.960 you know, it's not a question of like do we 582 00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:01.359 want more or do we want less? Right, if you 583 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.960 want growth, you have to answer this question like, well, 584 00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:07.400 growth of what? Who decides what that growth is going 585 00:33:07.480 --> 00:33:10.119 to be? What imperatives are, make a structuring those decisions. 586 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.039 Except if you want abundance or abundance of what and 587 00:33:13.079 --> 00:33:16.880 who decides? Basically that's like the core problem of the 588 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:19.319 contemporary society. I think m. 589 00:33:20.920 --> 00:33:23.400 Kind of reminds me of some things proposed by our 590 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:26.039 mutual friend Massive mood and jealous and the way he 591 00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:28.640 talks about value struggles right where we're talking about a 592 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:30.839 struggle over actually what is considered to be a value 593 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:34.720 in how you measure it and understand that. And it's 594 00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:37.839 almost like I think, in some ways both of your phramings, 595 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:41.279 a better nocial tradition is a form of value struggle 596 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:45.759 over how you measure consider what's important and how that understood. 597 00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:52.759 Yeah, yeah, but you know it doesn't have to it 598 00:33:52.759 --> 00:33:55.000 doesn't have to start at that really high level. If 599 00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:58.119 you're talking about like a pharmaceutical productions facility in Leon, 600 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:00.160 which is the one that we were biting over for 601 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:02.359 you know, the profits from that we're going to go 602 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.440 to you know, an organization we call a Common Association 603 00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:08.960 of Common Health Association who then decide how they get 604 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:11.239 how they can invest that, and they can invest it 605 00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.559 in the local area perhaps, And like so they're having 606 00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.039 to prioritize what they want. They have to negotiate prioritize 607 00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:18.960 what they want, which is another way of saying, what 608 00:34:19.079 --> 00:34:22.519 do you value basically, and you negotiate that what you valued, 609 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.960 you know what I mean. So that's like a very 610 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.800 practical thing. You know, you don't have to you don't 611 00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:28.840 have the whole point of like trying to think through 612 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:32.639 transition not as something that happens after the revolution or 613 00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:35.159 not as something that happens after the Left government, but 614 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.760 that happens now, which I totally you know, which it 615 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:39.320 was just a chord I think with like this idea 616 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:42.360 of a transition war you know, war between different forms 617 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:45.360 of like transition. You know that that those sorts of 618 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:48.400 struggles like value struggles start now, do you know what 619 00:34:48.400 --> 00:34:50.320 I mean? You can do that now basically, and they 620 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:56.199 obviously already taking place when people are prioritizing and activity 621 00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:56.960 that sort of thing. 622 00:34:57.840 --> 00:34:59.880 Well, part of why introduced it one to go for 623 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:02.920 string is I think one thing I share with both 624 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:05.880 of you is a preference for forms of organizing. They're 625 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:09.800 based upon common space methods, democratic workplace management, community management. 626 00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:12.519 But I think one thing you see in a history 627 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:16.760 of sort of cooperative organization, particularly workplaces, is a tendency 628 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:22.199 to be conservative around technological change and prioritize job stability 629 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:26.440 over over innovation and change that is, let's say, ecologically 630 00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.559 or beneficial in the long term. And that makes me 631 00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:32.519 wonder how you sort of balance out the tendency for 632 00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:38.320 workplace democracy to want to value security and job security 633 00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:41.880 versus these different levels of values in terms of that 634 00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.840 you also want to balance off. Does that make sense? 635 00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.280 It definitely does, And I think but I think this 636 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:59.400 part of the mechanisms, it's it's not just think in 637 00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:01.480 terms of how do you make a workplace democratic or 638 00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.599 how do you make an institution democratic, and in that sense, 639 00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:08.239 there was I'm always reminded like a line that Jerdy 640 00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:10.639 Dean had in one of her book on neoliberalism. I 641 00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:13.239 can't remember the title, and it was, like I remember 642 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:16.000 reading it was to the

anti globalization period, and you'd 643 00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:19.960 have like endless meetings and lots of consensus driven decision making, 644 00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.199 all the rest of it. And it occurred while in 645 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:26.760 the broader society like you're basically dealing with a crisis 646 00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.320 of participation, you know, St. David Mar's ruling the voids. 647 00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:33.599 Sort of. That was that period which I was reminded 648 00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.920 of recently reading hyper Politics, where the nineties was written 649 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:38.760 off entirely as a period where nothing happened, and I 650 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:41.199 was like, that's just not how I remember the nineties. 651 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:45.239 But there was a real there was a like a 652 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:50.400 bifurcation between the silent majority who refused to participate and 653 00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:54.760 sort of activists, a global activist subculture that hyper participated. 654 00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.599 And Jodey's line was, you can't fix a lack of 655 00:36:57.599 --> 00:37:01.679 participation by creating new ways for people to participate. There's 656 00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:06.360 like a there's there's a there's a there's no way 657 00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.239 to fix it. There's no way to fix a deficit 658 00:37:09.280 --> 00:37:14.639 of democracy through procedural means. But so in that sense, 659 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:17.760 I think there's there's the question of how do you 660 00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:21.159 organize in such a way as to facilitate participation in 661 00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:25.840 direct direct democracy and decision making wout assuming that everyone's 662 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.239 want to get involved. I don't think that's the same. 663 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.119 But I think that's a separate problem to the problem 664 00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:33.199 of technology and innovation. And the reason I wanted to 665 00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:36.960 put them separately was that there's there are tried and 666 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:39.679 true ways of engaging with people, even people who are 667 00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:52.800 resistant to participating, ways they think that they feel heard 668 00:37:52.880 --> 00:38:00.480 and included. Pros says innovations, and I don't think democratic 669 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:05.679 organizations lack you know. And there's been like we've kind 670 00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.679 of in the last fifty years gone from this myth 671 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:11.679 of this heroic garage tinkra who more often than not 672 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:12.639 was working class. 673 00:38:12.719 --> 00:38:12.920 You know. 674 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:16.039 There's this sort of autodidactic sort of idea that you'd 675 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:18.719 gone tinker with things, you'd whole new colors or new 676 00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:20.679 kinds of engines and things like that. There was actually 677 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.320 like the innovation was a bit of a crank's game. 678 00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:26.400 It was kind of like a thing for weirdos to 679 00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:29.719 do in their basements or garages, whereas now it's this 680 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:33.440 whole industry that churns out an endless stream of innovations. 681 00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:37.800 Whereas innovation is not inherently something people in their workplace 682 00:38:37.840 --> 00:38:40.079 were opposed to. In fact, if you give people free reign, 683 00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:43.239 or you find ways to organize it or facilitate it 684 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:50.239 towards purposeful ends, it actually there's no incompatibility between feeling 685 00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:54.559 secure in your work and participating democratically in the governance 686 00:38:54.599 --> 00:38:58.840 workplace and innovative and disruptive cultures. In fact, there was, 687 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.320 I mean, there's the obvious thing to reach for as 688 00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:04.119 a Lucas plan, But I think a more interesting one 689 00:39:04.159 --> 00:39:06.519 is the series of innovation hubs that were organized in 690 00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:10.920 Ken Livingstone's Greater London Authority. They actually there were a 691 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:14.800 series of innovation hubs that were working class community hubs 692 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.679 where people came to work on innovative solutions to different 693 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.079 kinds of technical and social problems. But I think there's 694 00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:24.000 I think you can disrupt your own workplace, in your 695 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.159 own workplace practices, in your own technologies, but that's and 696 00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:34.159 I don't think that's in athema to workplace security. It 697 00:39:34.199 --> 00:39:36.760 does also mean that acknowledging the fact that most innovation, 698 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.679 I think seventy five percent of innovation is what we 699 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:41.639 call incremental innovation. It's like new flavors of toothpaste and 700 00:39:41.639 --> 00:39:45.800 shit like that. That's a big chunk of it. Another 701 00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:48.880 big chunk of it, say, like AI is literally just 702 00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:54.079 about it's like this another technique for tailor ism, another 703 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.960 technique for sort of industrial organization, for de skilling workers, 704 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.920 for controlling workers, for surveiling workers. And so if you 705 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.079 get rid of those two kinds of innovations and we're 706 00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:06.679 just dealing with the residual like ten percent, there's no 707 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.559 reason why they can't be compatible with a sense of 708 00:40:09.960 -->

00:40:12.400 social and job security and a democracy in a workplace. 709 00:40:12.440 --> 00:40:15.519 I think, yeah, totally, And I mean you know that. 710 00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:20.119 So I think you're referring Stephen too like and sort 711 00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:23.639 of neoclassical critique and neoclassical economics critique of like co 712 00:40:23.719 --> 00:40:26.800 ops is that they would they would spend their increased 713 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.679 if they Yeah, they spend profits on or surplus on 714 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:34.000 increasing their own working improving their own working conditions. No 715 00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.360 bad thing basically should be involved, should be included in 716 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:39.599 any any sort of governance of these sorts of things, 717 00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:41.760 they probably do need to be balanced with like wider 718 00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:46.280 interests basically, and you know, the solution to that we 719 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.599 we we're really interested in this conception of public common partnerships, 720 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:53.880 et cetera, in which you know, which the surpluses of 721 00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:57.559 one of of one public common partnership go to sort 722 00:40:57.559 --> 00:40:59.840 of like try to capitalize a new one, et cetera. 723 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:03.239 But the whole point of that is to tie chains 724 00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:07.639 of these of these sorts of enterprises together basically and 725 00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:11.480 then try to tie them into coordinated networks and so 726 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:13.400 like you know, just practically again we can go back 727 00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:16.639 to this sort of like this pharmaceutical network in France 728 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:19.679 that one of the one of the organizations involved in 729 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.039 that was the UPEN Insulin Network basically, who were like 730 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:24.159 a group of researchers who were basically trying to do 731 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:27.400 trying to work out, like, you know, how you produce 732 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:31.840 insulin at scale without any intellectual property around it basically, 733 00:41:31.960 --> 00:41:35.480 so in which case, you know, basically you can really 734 00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:39.400 really fucking hurt the big farmer companies basically who you know, 735 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.159 particularly in the US, charge incredible amounts for insulin, you know, 736 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.760 and you know most innovation is basically public private partnerships. 737 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:51.000 They could be public common partnerships, but most innovation takes 738 00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:55.800 place in public through publicly funded whole Marianna Mazacato stuff 739 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:57.840 is all over this sort of stuff. It's like really 740 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.119 just common sense these days, you know, the common no 741 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.400 makes sense, you know. But the whole point of that is, 742 00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.039 you know, that could be a partnership, which is a 743 00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.280 public common partnership, not a public private partnership. Of course, 744 00:42:09.320 --> 00:42:10.760 Like there's all sorts of stuff that needs to take 745 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:13.400 place there. You have to reform the structure of higher education. 746 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.440 Well I've got good news for you, because British higher 747 00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:18.400 education is an absolute fucking free for no. I need 748 00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:22.920 to tell you all about that, you know, And you 749 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:25.119 know it's a certain point that has to be reformed 750 00:42:25.159 --> 00:42:29.360 as well, do you know what I mean? Yeah, So, like, yeah, 751 00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:32.719 my my argument would be this. You know, I'm not 752 00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:36.159 like work as co ops, independent workers co ops existing 753 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:38.000 on their own. They're great, They've got all sorts of 754 00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:40.079 good things about and them. We've got all sorts of limitations. 755 00:42:40.599 --> 00:42:43.280 The point is, you know, we have to use the 756 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:47.360 state to de risk a transition to a green democratic economy, 757 00:42:48.280 --> 00:42:50.880 and that means, you know, you have to the state 758 00:42:50.920 --> 00:42:54.760 has to be involved in accelerating or de risking the 759 00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:58.840 massive expansion of these things and also creating structures upon 760 00:42:58.880 --> 00:43:03.440 which they can coordinate network and the population of like 761 00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:08.559 localities around them. Are you know, I can can take 762 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:11.480 control over how those surpluses are invested, do you know 763 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.079 what I mean? And these aren't This isn't like Pine 764 00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:16.559 the sky. This is like we're working with two boroughs 765 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:18.719 in London at the moment to establish this things called 766 00:43:19.159 --> 00:43:22.719 popular Assets commissions, which are specifically designed so that local 767 00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:25.800 authorities do that. You know, there's a lot of things working, 768 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:27.920 there's a lot of things to work out there, but 769 00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:30.320 like you can do this now, and like part of 770 00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.119 the reason you'd want to do this now is, you know, 771 00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:39.559 is because it helps to develop democratic capabilities. Basically, one 772 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:41.920 of the ways to think about this is like we're 773 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:45.599 trying to reverse the neoliberal institutional reform

that took place, 774 00:43:46.039 --> 00:43:48.360 and you know, one of the one of the spin 775 00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.440 off effects of neoliberal institutional reform, not even spin off effects. 776 00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:54.119 One of the main aims of that was basically to 777 00:43:54.480 --> 00:44:01.559 basically insulate decisions, investment decisions from democratic pressure and basically 778 00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:05.480 destroy their democracy, like trained people to see themselves as 779 00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.920 competitive individuals at war of everybody else. You know, we 780 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:11.840 all know that, we've all there, We're all in various 781 00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:15.760 states of either have been academics or academics or even academia. 782 00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:21.679 You know. That's what That's what the research assessment exercises. 783 00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:24.440 You know, all of your companions, all of your your 784 00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:27.760 your the people who you work with are now your 785 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.239 competitors for scarce resources. They are not your they are 786 00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:33.559 not like, you know, the people who share your problems 787 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.719 that you can do collective action with. That's a training 788 00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.280 and anti democracy. The only way to get out of 789 00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:41.840 that is to train people in participating on the really 790 00:44:41.880 --> 00:44:46.360 really important decisions. So not consultations. Basically, this is it. 791 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:48.679 You have control of the resources, and you're going to 792 00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.159 what you decide is going to happen. It's fucking important. 793 00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:52.880 This is the way to have a massive impact on 794 00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:56.039 what happens in your local area. That is something that 795 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:59.760 drives participation. I think you know what I mean. Not 796 00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:02.280 an assembly where you where where you just talk for 797 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.320 hours and hours, and that is without consequence of decisions. 798 00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:08.360 You know, So I think that's one of the the 799 00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:11.000 answer to the problem of like the lack of participation 800 00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:13.880 is because we've been trained out of democracy and we've 801 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:16.840 been excluded from having any any influence over the key 802 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:19.960 decisions that structure our lives basically, and that's the task 803 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:20.679 is to reverse that. 804 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:24.920 So what I'm taking out of that is that the 805 00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:29.440 way you deal with sort of competing forms of value 806 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.880 are it's not something that that's that that's really worked 807

00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.360 out in an abstract sense, but rather what are the 808 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:40.119 institutional formations that nudge things into the ways that value 809 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:45.239 gets created and sort of flows back into arrangements where's 810 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:49.800 back into the commons. And when when Nick you said 811 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:51.320 you were going to use Jody's line, I thought you 812 00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:53.280 were going to use my favorite Jody line, which which 813 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:56.440 is of course gold and sex doesn't doesn't care if 814 00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:58.639 you was it living Brothers. 815 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.119 Its golden Sex, Goldman Sachs. 816 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.199 Doesn't care if you raised chickens. And that would be 817 00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:05.360 the sort of like the negative version would be, like 818 00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:09.960 you could have your little commons based arrangement that's so 819 00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:13.519 marginal no one cares about. So if the idea is 820 00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:15.719 there has to be a sort of nudging to an 821 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:22.840 acceleration to a shifting of the commons, that's towards building 822 00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:26.440 kinds of common based arrangements that are democratically run to 823 00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:31.079 engage in socially useful production. Where we have nice, wonderful, 824 00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:34.639 wonderful watermelon politics that are great on the outside and 825 00:46:34.679 --> 00:46:37.719 red and black on the inside. How are we going 826 00:46:37.760 --> 00:46:42.519 to do that? Small, small questions, small questions, No problem, 827 00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:42.880 no problem. 828 00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:46.639 I mean part of the that that line of jourgyes 829 00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:48.360 is that gold miss sex very much. Do you care, 830 00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:53.000 along with most international financial institutions, if people anywhere outside 831 00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:56.280 of the global North had already been totally commodified kept chickens, 832 00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.119 were any of the means of subsistence. And I think 833 00:46:59.159 --> 00:47:05.320 that's like like that the one of the the go 834 00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:07.719 to points in the book, and this is raised, I 835 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:09.639 don't name check it explicitly, but it's raised in a 836 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.079 review of the book. Is that actually building out autonomous 837 00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:18.119 means of social reproduction, building out commons, building out a 838 00:47:18.199 --> 00:47:23.880 municipal politics, building out the social economy, like actually, they 839 00:47:24.000 --> 00:47:27.480 it's quite it can be. It's not. It's not spectacular. 840 00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:31.519 It's not like barricades and bricks and molotovs and sort 841 00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:33.440 of like it's not it's not a it's not a 842 00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:39.599 main character moment sort of politics, but building out an 843 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.480 autonomy from hyper competitive market relations is key to any 844 00:47:46.480 --> 00:47:49.280 sort of successful resistance. And it's also like it's in 845 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:52.039 that sense, it's like a it's a I don't mean 846 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:56.840 the first crack Crack capitalism and books Pohn Halloway's like, 847 00:47:56.880 --> 00:47:58.480 there's lots in that book I disagree with it, but 848 00:47:58.559 --> 00:48:03.400 like the idea that you build down sort of your counterpower, 849 00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.880 not and not just merely sees existing forms of the 850 00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:09.880 state or whatever else that exists, or existing unions or whatever, 851 00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:13.920 but actually building out the alternative is really important. And 852 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.440 I know that's I mean, that's part of the broad 853 00:48:16.440 --> 00:48:20.480 sway that the degrowth mementore or less took on Eric 854 00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.719 Wright's work on the social economy and real utopias and 855 00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:26.079 all that sort of stuff is basically is this bible 856 00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:28.960 that here's a roadmap we can build these things out. 857 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:31.880 And it's interesting to me that's sort of like, and 858 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:35.440 this is pure coincidences because I had, I know, I 859 00:48:35.480 --> 00:48:39.599 had absolutely no role whatsoever in the revival of municipalis 860 00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:43.159 sort of politics, particularly sort of as embody by Mandami 861 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.079 in New York. But that's one of the things I 862 00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:48.679 talk about the book is that actually you kind of 863 00:48:48.719 --> 00:48:52.039 have to inscribe things at a local institutional level. And 864 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.920 you know, like I very much like the the idea 865 00:48:55.960 --> 00:48:58.960 in Against and Beyond as a as a revolutionary framework, 866 00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:01.440 like you have to work within the institutions you have 867 00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:04.280 you have, you have to then work against them, and 868 00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.639 being in the union, having been in the unions forever, 869 00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.000 like you have to be in the union, you have 870 00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:09.599 to be against the union, but you also have to 871 00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:12.639 be beyond the union. You have to start building counter institutions. 872 00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:19.199 And I think it's the messy reality is that there's 873 00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:21.840 no way of getting out of them as the mud. 874 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:24.920 You kind of just have to start building from where 875 00:49:24.920

--> 00:49:28.440 you are. And so I think that there's a I 876 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.079 think at the municipal scale for me, is one of 877 00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:34.679 the it's kind of like it's a like a Goldilocks 878 00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:36.679 political situation in a lot of ways, like one you 879 00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:38.639 need if you want to have an impact on a 880 00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.239 state or a region like a nation state, sorry a region. 881 00:49:42.280 --> 00:49:44.519 You kind of the idea that one of the lessons 882 00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:47.400 from the populist wave in the sort of early twenty 883 00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:51.000 tens was without a sort of an organized base, there's 884 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.119 almost no point in going straight to the top and 885 00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:55.360 seizing the ship of state or whatever it is. As 886 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.320 it were, like, you kind of need of an organized base, 887 00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.800 and to have an organized base, you kind of there's 888 00:49:59.840 --> 00:50:01.880 no point to sort of arguing for the party or 889 00:50:01.920 --> 00:50:04.159 the union or whatever else. You kind of have to 890 00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:09.280 have a project because organizing works through projects. So organizing 891 00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:12.679 at a municipal level to seize the means of social reproduction, 892 00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:16.599 seize anchor institutions, sort of start to inscribe a positive 893 00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:19.519 politics exactly what's cure, what's talking about at a municipal 894 00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:23.360 level is a really it gives people a something to do, 895 00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:26.039 gives you, It gives you some victories that you can secure, 896 00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.199 and when you're winning, then you're growing in because that's 897 00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:32.000 what that's what people White people join in an organization. 898 00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:35.320 It's because they can see that the organization is winning 899 00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.679 and they think winning is possible. Coming back to the 900 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:40.280 question of the future, and you also start to get 901 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:41.800 some runs on the board to start to build out 902 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:45.280 that counter transition, and then you'll have a chance of 903 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:48.320 seizing bigger institutions. But you kind of need you need, 904 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:52.559 you need a foundational you need a pillar or multiple pillars. 905 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:54.840 And I think at least for me, that the municipal 906 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:57.480 scale is the right scale to start to institute some 907 00:50:57.559 --> 00:50:59.280 of those those wins. 908 00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:03.239 I mean, yeah, it's also like you can look again 909 00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:05.199 at what the neoliberals did, you know,

they they tried 910 00:51:05.239 --> 00:51:08.719 these things, they tried out then their institutional forms in 911 00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.480 local areas or sub municipal areas, you know, the London 912 00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:16.880 Doclar's development corporations, you know, you know specifically like we 913 00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:19.639 need to we need to insulate this so that this 914 00:51:19.719 --> 00:51:23.159 is an area where democracy doesn't apply. Basically, this is 915 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:27.280 what they said about the London Docklands Development Corporation. And 916 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:29.559 theny try out all of these new institutions like public 917 00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:32.599 private partnerships, et cetera. Try more on a local level. 918 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.960 What you do your learning there, you know, and then 919 00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:37.840 you roll it out around the country. Is like the 920 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.960 model that they took. You know, probably gonna have to 921 00:51:41.000 --> 00:51:42.960 do the same thing, hopefully do it in various places 922 00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:46.079 at the same time, et cetera. On on the on 923 00:51:46.119 --> 00:51:48.519 the sort of like the wider concept of like of 924 00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:51.719 like counter transitions, et cetera. I quite like the idea 925 00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:55.000 of the phrase dual biopower, which is something that Alberto 926 00:51:55.039 --> 00:51:58.360 Toscan has sort of used basically, which is, you know, 927 00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:03.039 and he's looking around at like successful successful. It's a podcast. 928 00:52:03.119 --> 00:52:06.199 You can't see me do an air quote successful social 929 00:52:06.280 --> 00:52:08.639 movements you know around the world, not all of you know, 930 00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:10.360 some of them we would be more in favor of 931 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:13.400 than others. But like building out that dual bower biopower 932 00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:15.960 is you know, one of the ways in which you 933 00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:20.159 devel like it's proper power. Basically, when it disrupts the 934 00:52:20.159 --> 00:52:22.920 power of capital, the power capital has over us is 935 00:52:23.079 --> 00:52:26.519 well the power of investment. So capital strikes, capital flight, 936 00:52:26.679 --> 00:52:30.360 et cetera, or you know, proper strikes like you know 937 00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.960 what I mean, like the trucking strike in Chile they 938 00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:35.599 tried to bring down a l NDE before they had 939 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:37.760 to go to a military coup. Do you know what 940 00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:40.119 I mean? You know, proper strikes just turn it off 941 00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:45.239 off being able to sabotage production. Basically, either we can 942 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:47.880 do it or they can do it. Basically, but before 943 00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:50.159 we can get to the stage we can sabotage production. 944 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.280 At this moment, to do disruptive work, we need to 945 00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:57.679 build a social base, as Nick says, basically, but I 946 00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.440 do think that like that trying to take over assets, 947 00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.360 these sorts of things, they also involve like contentious politics. 948 00:53:04.360 --> 00:53:06.320 Do you know what I mean? You know, you're trying 949 00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:11.039 to you're trying to obstruct particular things, a gentrification plan basically, 950 00:53:11.079 --> 00:53:12.519 and you have to use all of the things that 951 00:53:12.519 --> 00:53:15.559 we're so familiar with and which give you a slight 952 00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:21.719 moment of like main character syndrome, as Nick was saying, 953 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:24.599 you know, like you know, protests, et cetera, blockade all 954 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:26.440 of these sorts of things. Do you know what I mean? 955 00:53:26.800 --> 00:53:29.239 Like so each you know, I've got this idea in 956 00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:31.559 my head. One way in which the public common partnerships 957 00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:33.960 can spread is that one helps to facilitate the next 958 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:36.880 helps to facilitate the next. The self expansive dynamic of 959 00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.280 the commentary. But each one of those is a new 960 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:42.519 site political struggle basically, which will involve like people coming 961 00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:45.239 together decided what they want, but also what they don't want, 962 00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:48.519 and then objecting and blockading what they don't want, you 963 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:50.840 know what I mean? Both me and Nick were evolved 964 00:53:50.920 --> 00:53:55.280 in thinking about like this idea of the social strike 965 00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.599 back in the twenty and tens, which is probably like 966 00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:01.119 a decade ago now, and we were trying to think 967 00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:03.079 through about this of like how do you build the 968 00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.519 capacity to disrupt thing when we don't have you know, 969 00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:11.599 we don't have the same structure of production, but also 970 00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:14.400 like the same energy base as we did, do you 971 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:18.320 know what I mean? The real forces of disruption were 972 00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:21.440 around well coal basically when coal was like the main 973 00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:23.719 energy source. That was when the working class was at 974 00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:26.320 its peak power basically, and you had like the you know, 975 00:54:26.360 --> 00:54:30.039 the growth of of autonomous working class cultures like in 976 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.559 South Wales or I grew up, you know, it faded 977 00:54:32.599 --> 00:54:35.360

quite a bit better time I got there. And so 978 00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:37.360 now we have to think about well, like we have 979 00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:40.960 to think about what are the appropriate means of struggle 980 00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:46.000 around the developing energy source, which is renewables, which is 981 00:54:46.039 --> 00:54:48.760 probably not disruptive, but perhaps it does lend itself to 982 00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:54.400 like decentralized for alternative ownership models basically because it's something 983 00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:58.199 which isn't that it doesn't have huge, huge, huge, you know, 984 00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:00.920 capital costs. You can do it with small capital cost space, 985 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.000 which means that we can access it and the power 986 00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:07.920 of capital's control of over investment is weakened because it's 987 00:55:08.039 --> 00:55:12.199 more available to like ordinary communities, et cetera. But then 988 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:13.920 we have to they have to develop the social base 989 00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:15.960 from which we can then do disruptive actions. And I 990 00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:17.199 think you have to start it. You have to do 991 00:55:17.239 --> 00:55:19.639 it that way, rather than start with disruption and try 992 00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:22.000 to work back to the social base, which probably was 993 00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:25.480 the which was the mistake of extinction rebellion on all 994 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:28.119 of the subsequent iterations. 995 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:31.679 So we're thinking about ways to develop a kind of 996 00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:34.599 popular protagonism at the sort of municipal or local or 997 00:55:34.679 --> 00:55:38.360 real regional level. I'm gonna perhaps say something with what 998 00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:41.960 might embarrass myselfware telepist comes out at this moment. I 999 00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.280 think we're we're four or five hours into a Burnham government, 1000 00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:49.199 so we has that been disappointing yet. I'm sure it's 1001 00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:54.239 coming by tomorrow. But one thing I do see is 1002 00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:57.440 that he Burnham seems to be more focused on trying 1003 00:55:57.440 --> 00:56:01.079 to have more devolution and more regional power. Or could 1004 00:56:01.119 --> 00:56:05.039 that be a sort of potential opening for attempting to 1005 00:56:05.119 --> 00:56:10.920 develop more municipalistic forms of popular protagonism in the in 1006 00:56:10.960 --> 00:56:13.840 the UK? Or is that a kind of trap which 1007 00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:17.280 you run into and then discover is just the same 1008 00:56:17.280 --> 00:56:19.519 problems as corbinism, but on a different scale. 1009 00:56:21.840 --> 00:56:24.280 I mean, like, you know, anybody listening to this outside 1010 00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:25.880 the UK, the UK has got like the one of 1011 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:29.639 the most centralized political systems in the world, as in, 1012 00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:34.639 you know, previous waves of municipal socialism meant that all 1013 00:56:34.719 --> 00:56:37.159 sort of like tax raising abilities, local tax raising and 1014 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:42.239 abilities were taken off, not all, but basically incredibly constrained basically, 1015 00:56:42.239 --> 00:56:45.239 which means that local authorities they have very little power. 1016 00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:49.159 They have incredibly constrained budgets because they have to pay 1017 00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:53.320 for social care, and basically they can't do anything. And 1018 00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:55.639 like so this is a you know, there's been a 1019 00:56:55.639 --> 00:56:59.360 wave of new green administrations across London, etc. And that's 1020 00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.079 what they you know, they open the books and it's like, well, 1021 00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:04.199 what the fuck do we do? And like, you know, 1022 00:57:04.239 --> 00:57:08.039 my answer to them has been, well, you need to 1023 00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:11.480 unlock new resources in order to do stuff. The usual 1024 00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:13.880 way you do unlocked new resources is you get you 1025 00:57:14.039 --> 00:57:16.840 de risk private capital and give them your assets basically 1026 00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:20.360 and access capital resources. But there's other resources out there, 1027 00:57:20.400 --> 00:57:23.840 which is like the energy, knowledge and like activity of 1028 00:57:24.480 --> 00:57:26.760 local people. Basically, you know, if you want to get 1029 00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.079 things done, you can form the institutions upon which they 1030 00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:30.920 start to do it. Do you know what, They can 1031 00:57:30.920 --> 00:57:33.079 even go out and raise their own capital in various ways, 1032 00:57:33.159 --> 00:57:38.400 you know what I mean. So yeah, even in the 1033 00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:41.199 most constrained form of like local government we have now, 1034 00:57:41.280 --> 00:57:43.800 it is possible to do stuff and to do to 1035 00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:47.519 try to initiate stuff. But like you know, there is 1036 00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:51.079 that in and againstment beyond that, Nick said, basically it 1037 00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:53.519 is all about trying to use the state to develop 1038 00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:58.079 popular protagonism primarily outside the state, forming the institutions upon 1039 00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:01.239 which popular protagonism can form out side the state. That 1040 00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:05.480 might well mean assets, public assets being given over to 1041 00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:10.199 the control of local, local people, local organized communities, these 1042 00:58:10.239 --> 00:58:13.719 sorts of things. You know, it's the whole Stuart Stuart 1043 00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:17.599 Hall quote

about like you can have a partnership between 1044 00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.960 society and the state. So in fact, this is more 1045 00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:23.440 interesting than that. He says, as soon as the transition starts, 1046 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:26.320 you can have a partnership between society and the state, 1047 00:58:26.920 --> 00:58:29.719 as long as resources in initiative are always passing from 1048 00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:33.320 society from the state to society. Basically, an initiative doesn't 1049 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:37.719 get stuck with the bureaucracy of the state. He says that, 1050 00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:40.079 and that's the task. Basically, that's the task I think 1051 00:58:40.119 --> 00:58:42.840 any of these any form of like municipal politics in 1052 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:45.920 the UK, that's the task that they have to do. Basically, 1053 00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.760 whether the whether these new forms of devolution around mayors, 1054 00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:53.360 et cetera, all sorts of complications around that as it happens. 1055 00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:58.000 I now know two mayors in London, which is the 1056 00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.920 weird I'd be able to say that, but two friends 1057 00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.960 of mine and mayre's in London. Now you know one 1058 00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:07.760 of them has no budget and everyone has a small budget. 1059 00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:10.000 You know that the way this fold rolls out I 1060 00:59:10.039 --> 00:59:12.159 think will be they'll try to roll this out the 1061 00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.039 Labor Party. I imagine this devolution in a way that 1062 00:59:15.119 --> 00:59:20.119 maintains maximum control in the Westminster or Number ten North, 1063 00:59:20.159 --> 00:59:23.280 depending on where Andy Burnham is that week. But they 1064 00:59:23.320 --> 00:59:26.480 always open up possibilities for like for us to take 1065 00:59:26.480 --> 00:59:32.199 control over over these new levels of municipal government. I 1066 00:59:32.199 --> 00:59:34.960 think they always open up some some way in which 1067 00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:37.559 you can use it against the way, against the purpose 1068 00:59:37.599 --> 00:59:38.960 for which it was set up, if you know, if 1069 00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:39.880 you want to put it that way. 1070 00:59:41.519 --> 00:59:44.559 I mean, it's like I have heard such a deep 1071 00:59:44.599 --> 00:59:46.599 will of cynicism, and I think Andy Burnham is going 1072 00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:50.480 to is just a it's just a nice just know 1073 00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:53.039 that it's just starmer again. It's just it's like his 1074 00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:56.760 record in Manchester is actually quite is quite appalling, including 1075 00:59:57.079 --> 01:00:00.480 he already probably his first promise was to end rough sleeping. 1076 01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.360 He promised exactly the same thing in Manchester and he 1077 01:00:03.400 --> 01:00:06.039 didn't end rough sleeping, just in case anyone's gonna be 1078 01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:07.480 shocked and surprised by that news. 1079 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:09.599 And he's done his best. Neck he's done his best. 1080 01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.840 He's increased the amount of luxury beds in Manchester. It's 1081 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:14.559 a shame the homeless can't access them. 1082 01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:19.000 But there's I think there's there's a couple of things 1083 01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:22.440 so like like I'm not sure if it maybe will 1084 01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:24.760 afford opportunities, maybe won't. We kind of have to be 1085 01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:27.239 mindful of that. We also have to then think about 1086 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.480 what the who would be able to seize those opportunities, 1087 01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:31.320 because we also have to bear in mind like they've 1088 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:34.760 also labored just passed a law changing planning law to 1089 01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:39.119 basically make impossible to oppose data centers and anything they 1090 01:00:39.119 --> 01:00:40.880 want to build out. They're going to build out with 1091 01:00:40.920 --> 01:00:45.440 these new with these changes to planning laws. But I 1092 01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:47.639 think there's if we're coming back to that question of 1093 01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:51.320 antagonism building up, alternatively, think there's there's two There's two 1094 01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:54.519 sort of agents that we can we can think about 1095 01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:58.840 in terms of classic organizing strategies. The first is actually 1096 01:00:58.840 --> 01:01:01.880 the people install all this energy infrastructure. So you know, 1097 01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:04.480 most of the workforce is it's not a manufacturing workforce 1098 01:01:04.480 --> 01:01:08.440 in this country, it's an installation workforce, where like actually 1099 01:01:08.440 --> 01:01:11.679 lots of lots of jobs that you know, we'd consider 1100 01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:15.760 industry increasingly look like basically just assembling pre made parts, 1101 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:19.239 or assembling pre made bits of code, or putting together 1102 01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:22.039 pre made bits of design items. Like almost any sort 1103 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:25.519 of like anything that can be serialized has been done. 1104 01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:28.199 So so now we just have these massive installation and 1105 01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:31.400 assembly workforces. They go around usually from site to site, 1106 01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:35.800 putting stuff together, plug and stuff in. Now like that 1107 01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.000 seems like an itinera at workforce, small scale lots of 1108 01:01:39.039 --> 01:01:43.679 small businesses, et cetera, et cetera. There is a union 1109 01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:47.719 in Australia called the Electrical Trades Union trade union, so 1110

01:01:47.880 --> 01:01:53.039 basically electricians people install solar panels like et cetera, et cetera. 1111 01:01:53.440 --> 01:01:56.639 And they managed to do it an organizing drive and 1112 01:01:56.719 --> 01:01:59.280 it was just they just used a different model. They 1113 01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:02.000 actually had had to spend time going from site to site, 1114 01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:05.159 traveling around, going to where this's like where tradees would 1115 01:02:05.199 --> 01:02:07.440 hang out, going to where the pubs, to all the 1116 01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:10.639 different places it makes to unionize that sector. And it's 1117 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:12.719 one of the most was when I left one of 1118 01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:15.400 the most left wing and pro environmental sectors because almost 1119 01:02:15.440 --> 01:02:20.199 all their work was doing like green energy installation work, 1120 01:02:20.239 --> 01:02:22.000 so of course they had a massive interest in it. 1121 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.800 All that's to say it just because it's an installation workforce, 1122 01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:29.119 there are challenges to organizing it, but doesn't mean it 1123 01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:31.840 can't be organized. And I think that there's one of 1124 01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:33.960 the institutions we have to be in against and beyond 1125 01:02:34.320 --> 01:02:37.000 other unions that we have, because our unions are pretty shit. 1126 01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:41.719 And you know the fact that gmbing United, the two 1127 01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:45.840 of the three biggest unions in England, came out for 1128 01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.239 more oil and gas exploration, even though it's a fraction 1129 01:02:48.320 --> 01:02:50.039 of their membership and against the interest of most of 1130 01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:53.760 their memberships. That's kind of the that's part of the course. 1131 01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:56.599 We've all, like anyone who's been in the union knows 1132 01:02:56.679 --> 01:02:58.760 that how much of benefit it is just to get 1133 01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:01.599 them to defend your intro led alone go anywhere further, 1134 01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:05.440 like like unions whenever, Like if every time I encounter 1135 01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:07.960 my own union bureaucracy makes me feel it's the most 1136 01:03:08.079 --> 01:03:12.360 enraged ultra left I ever get. But I think like nonetheless, 1137 01:03:12.639 --> 01:03:14.960 like like the state unions are a train of struggle. 1138 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:16.920 They're not like a vehicle for our emancipation. There are 1139 01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:18.719 things we have to like sort of they're like being 1140 01:03:18.760 --> 01:03:20.519 trapped in like a sleeping bag. You know, when you 1141 01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:22.679 go camping with your mates, you drink too much night 1142 01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:24.079 before you wake up, and you sleep bag and you 1143 01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:25.639 have to fight to get out of it. I kind 1144 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:28.119 of feel like that's a metaphor for my life in unions. 1145 01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:31.400 But like we have to make them the vehicles that 1146 01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.400 we want to do the things we need, and organizing 1147 01:03:34.559 --> 01:03:36.960 that actual installation workforce is definitely a part of it. 1148 01:03:37.960 --> 01:03:40.760 One of the vehicles that we can use positively for 1149 01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.760 that is it comes at the other end, is like 1150 01:03:44.360 --> 01:03:47.000 once you've installed them, like you're dealing with a distributed 1151 01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:51.519 energy generation system, someone has to own the means of 1152 01:03:51.639 --> 01:03:56.000 energy production in the instance and there are two interesting 1153 01:03:56.039 --> 01:03:58.480 aspects to that one around here again like one of 1154 01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:00.639 the things that some green putty member we're doing. We're 1155 01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:03.639 going from it's like parish to parish, village to village, 1156 01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:07.360 town to town and trying to organize community energy cooperatives 1157 01:04:07.960 --> 01:04:11.239 and then networking them. So there you're using party infrastructure 1158 01:04:12.239 --> 01:04:17.679 to create a network of energy community energy projects. Which 1159 01:04:17.920 --> 01:04:21.159 again it's that's quite like, that's not it's not thrilling. 1160 01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:23.599 It's not like, oh, I'm going to my community co 1161 01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:25.880 op meeting, energy co op meeting and shoesday night. It's 1162 01:04:25.880 --> 01:04:27.400 going to be a rage that this is awesome. It's 1163 01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:31.480 like back doing you know, raves and fields back when 1164 01:04:31.480 --> 01:04:34.079 I was twenty one, like getting bumps from some of 1165 01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:38.159 the rando and the back of a's trashed out car. Like, 1166 01:04:38.199 --> 01:04:40.559 it's not, it's not that, but it's critical work to 1167 01:04:40.599 --> 01:04:43.440 try to organize that necessarily so you can you can 1168 01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:49.159 also organize the producers, which is it's politically. It then 1169 01:04:49.199 --> 01:04:51.639 opens up some interesting questions around well, what do we 1170 01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:54.440 consider the popular classes, because that's kind of a bit 1171 01:04:54.440 --> 01:04:57.280 petty bourgeois. Really, isn't it like sort of running your 1172 01:04:57.320 --> 01:04:59.920 own sort of co op as a producer or worse 1173 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:02.280 you could do Like in Australia, what they've got is 1174 01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:04.800 there are now so much is so much rooftop solar 1175 01:05:04.840 --> 01:05:08.719 where every single house is an energy station that the 1176 01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:10.719 only way of

dealing with it is that they're now 1177 01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:13.400 bringing a law it'll be complete by October that every 1178 01:05:13.400 --> 01:05:16.239 Australian as long as you have a smart mate, it 1179 01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:20.440 gets three hours of free electricity every single day. And 1180 01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:22.440 that's that's not even a radical claim. It's just there's 1181 01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.559 an excess of energy. So they have to get rid 1182 01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:26.480 of it somehow. They have to get rid of it 1183 01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:28.599 during peak production. So they're saying, if you if you 1184 01:05:28.719 --> 01:05:34.920 use it during peak productions, say one to four every 1185 01:05:36.239 --> 01:05:39.199 three so please just plug in whatever crap you have 1186 01:05:39.400 --> 01:05:41.760 and get it done at that point in time. So 1187 01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:45.000 but again we're dealing with millions of petty producers. And 1188 01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:47.119 so there's the one is that there's that space, that 1189 01:05:47.239 --> 01:05:51.480 organizing space that exists for a competent organizing union, which 1190 01:05:51.639 --> 01:05:54.239 the Left would feel very comfortable with. Then actually have 1191 01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:57.159 these two sort of community based generation, individual based generation 1192 01:05:57.239 --> 01:06:00.000 that offers some really interesting or afford some really interesting possibility, 1193 01:06:00.880 --> 01:06:04.360 like in Australia, like they have negative energy prices and yeah, 1194 01:06:04.559 --> 01:06:06.719 there's a sort of Bloomberg was complaining, Oh, no one 1195 01:06:06.719 --> 01:06:09.280 wants to invest in the Spanish renewable sector because there's 1196 01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:12.920 negative prices, there's no return. I'm like, well, the way 1197 01:06:12.920 --> 01:06:15.199 they dealt with that in Australia is that they basically 1198 01:06:15.280 --> 01:06:17.400 they're just going to give it away for free, and 1199 01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.400 then the government itself is having to convince all these 1200 01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:24.280 small petty producers that that's part of how everybody wins. 1201 01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:27.480 And there so there's like that was and that was 1202 01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:29.880 done by like a right wing labor government. That wasn't 1203 01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:33.360 done by a radical eco populist party. But I think 1204 01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:37.679 there are there are two spaces where we can definitely 1205 01:06:37.760 --> 01:06:41.719 drive for drive forward a different kind of agenda. One 1206 01:06:41.760 --> 01:06:45.679 is probably far more comfortable for the self identity of 1207 01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:47.599 the left, but another one kind of means we have 1208 01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:51.320 to venture into questions of class composition, changing class composition, 1209 01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:54.039 what does it mean to engage with petty producers and 1210 01:06:54.119 --> 01:07:01.639 small owners. But as a as a potentially uh progressive 1211 01:07:01.760 --> 01:07:05.440 or even radical social agent, I. 1212 01:07:05.480 --> 01:07:08.360 Think that like you're right to bring up like class 1213 01:07:08.360 --> 01:07:12.239 composition berfectly and like you know, there's a technical composition, 1214 01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:15.079 and there's a political composition. Basic the political composition is 1215 01:07:15.079 --> 01:07:18.679 a project like I think exactly like if you're if you're, 1216 01:07:18.760 --> 01:07:22.079 if you were pulling people into like why why the 1217 01:07:22.079 --> 01:07:24.920 petty booge wise like this politically ambitious, ambiguous class and 1218 01:07:24.920 --> 01:07:28.480 it's cletarly ambiguous because they face you know, they're they 1219 01:07:28.519 --> 01:07:30.719 they're small sort of like this, but they face the 1220 01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:35.159 world of small individual units of capital basically usually not 1221 01:07:35.239 --> 01:07:38.440 capitalist as in usually not trying to grow into something big, 1222 01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:43.679 but just trying to survive. Basically classic anxious subjectivity, you know, 1223 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:47.159 a classic base for like fascism and like what well, 1224 01:07:47.199 --> 01:07:49.559 what what happens when you pull all those people into 1225 01:07:49.800 --> 01:07:54.480 uh you collectivize a particular part of their fixed capital basically, 1226 01:07:55.000 --> 01:08:00.239 you know, they're drawn into the democratic deliberation over you know, 1227 01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:03.199 essential part of their work. All of a sudden, they're 1228 01:08:03.199 --> 01:08:06.239 not facing the world as an individual separated from over 1229 01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:09.079 the else in competition. They are faced facing the world 1230 01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:13.039 from the perspective a collective capital, basically a collective ownership, 1231 01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:13.639 you know what I mean? 1232 01:08:15.000 --> 01:08:18.119 With farmers all the time, like the weeperwards, what they 1233 01:08:18.119 --> 01:08:21.720 are is like the co opse for like for petty 1234 01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:22.520 farm producers. 1235 01:08:22.920 --> 01:08:25.199 Yeah, yeah, yeah, but like you know, basically it's a 1236 01:08:25.199 --> 01:08:28.119 way of intervening by creating those sorts of institutions whereby 1237 01:08:28.159 --> 01:08:30.920 they can come together and collective. Like farmers should be 1238 01:08:30.920 --> 01:08:33.279 able to collectivize their fixed capital costs in order to 1239 01:08:33.279 --> 01:08:36.039 be to not be lost bleat makers anymore. That was 1240 01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:38.680 one of the proposals we make in the book basically, 1241 01:08:39.319 --> 01:08:42.399 and like that that what that

would mean was that 1242 01:08:42.439 --> 01:08:44.720 farmers would then have to and you know, the other 1243 01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:46.600 propos in the book is that there should be a 1244 01:08:46.600 --> 01:08:51.760 movement from industrial agriculture to to agreen ecological agriculture, and 1245 01:08:51.800 --> 01:08:53.840 that that is a period that transition needs to be 1246 01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.319 derisked because as periods when you're not going to earn money. 1247 01:08:56.640 --> 01:08:58.279 And the way you would do that is to have 1248 01:08:58.680 --> 01:09:01.600 people collectivize their income stream, so that one farm is 1249 01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:05.159 subsidizing another as they move through that transition process, etc. 1250 01:09:05.720 --> 01:09:08.399 But like the political composition effect of that is, all 1251 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:11.319 of a sudden, they're not individuals or individual families. They 1252 01:09:11.479 --> 01:09:14.000 having to think about, like you know, the world through 1253 01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:17.079 collective problems from the point of view of collective property. 1254 01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:20.880 Basically the same of like the same of like you know, 1255 01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:24.479 the Ward's Corner Latin Village Market in Tottenham, which is 1256 01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:26.560 one of the projects were involved in creating a public 1257 01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:30.760 common partnership. They're small stallholders, lots of them, like you 1258 01:09:30.800 --> 01:09:35.239 know from Latin America, et cetera. You know, classic petty 1259 01:09:35.279 --> 01:09:37.119 bourgeois you would think. But all of a sudden, now 1260 01:09:37.159 --> 01:09:41.079 they're collectively managing their market, neglective managing you know, the 1261 01:09:42.119 --> 01:09:44.760 building that it's in, and they're taking part in deliberations 1262 01:09:44.840 --> 01:09:48.000 upond which how to use that investment to try to 1263 01:09:48.039 --> 01:09:50.920 improve the local area. So the negotiations of everybody are 1264 01:09:51.039 --> 01:09:54.520 all of a sudden they are democratic subjects and not 1265 01:09:54.600 --> 01:09:58.760 individual fraction parts of capital. Basically, that doesn't solve all problems, 1266 01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:01.960 but it adds an element where buy that the political 1267 01:10:01.960 --> 01:10:05.000 composition of that the petty boucheoise is self employed, et cetera. 1268 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:08.479 You know, it's changed, basically, and I think that's you know, 1269 01:10:09.039 --> 01:10:11.399 class is not something that's fixed, it's not something that's given. 1270 01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:14.119 It's it's a project basically that we have to work on. 1271 01:10:15.960 --> 01:10:17.920 And I think that that sort of in some ways 1272 01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:19.840 it brings us back to where we started, which is 1273 01:10:19.840 --> 01:10:23.279 almost like the project of sort of like shifting sense 1274 01:10:23.520 --> 01:10:28.159 common sense through institutional forms in moments of transition. How 1275 01:10:28.199 --> 01:10:30.359 you do that rather than that that that shift being 1276 01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:34.439 opposed upon you and ending up with to use someone's 1277 01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:35.640 phrase or something worse. 1278 01:10:37.279 --> 01:10:38.119 See what he did there? 1279 01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:39.000 Nice? 1280 01:10:41.479 --> 01:10:43.800 Yeah, well I think that might be a good point 1281 01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:45.520 to get to. So I just want to say thank 1282 01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:48.760 you both for coming along. That was super interesting, and 1283 01:10:49.600 --> 01:10:53.680 for folks listening, I would suggest you pick up a 1284 01:10:53.720 --> 01:10:57.640 copy of both Nick and Keir's book. So not not 1285 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:01.880 just here, it's also Kir and Bertie and Hi Guy's 1286 01:11:02.640 --> 01:11:06.680 book which is available from Versaill and Pluto, who are 1287 01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:10.720 good comrades. So thanks for coming along, Thanks for having 1288 01:11:10.840 --> 01:11:11.119 seven 1289 01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:14.600 H