Full Transcript for NEW: Delphi Sentence and United Healthcare Arrest

--> 00:02:01.120 keep you warm? Though? Because it is a beautiful airbnb, 42 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.400 so tell our listeners a little bit about your fireplaces. 43 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:08.159 We have three working fireplaces in our house, although we 44 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.479 usually only use the one in the living room. 45 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.639 You've got one in your library too, correct. 46 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:18.680 Yeah, the podcast studio Slash Library has a working fireplace. 47 00:02:18.759 --> 00:02:21.319 I'm staring at it. It's right next to the Christmas tree, 48 00:02:21.560 --> 00:02:24.919 and we have another one upstairs in our main guest room. 49 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.120 Do you have a nice roaring fire in the podcast 50 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.800 studio right now. I'm trying to picture this this room 51 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.719 all lit up with Christmas cheer and a roaring fire 52 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:35.400 and a beautiful twinkling tree. 53 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.360 No, yes to all the above, except no roaring fire 54 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:41.039 in this particular fireplace. 55 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.759 We want to welcome everybody to this episode and go 56 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:46.919 ahead and start at the top by wishing you a 57 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:49.479 very happy holiday, no matter which holiday it is that 58 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.800 you happen to celebrate, and we are looking forward to 59 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:56.960 bringing you this episode of True Crime News Roundup. We 60 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:01.240 wanted to cover two cases in particular today, the sentence 61 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:05.240 scene in the Delphi case and then the capture of 62 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:12.759 CEO murder assailant Luigi Mangione, which is possibly the most 63 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:14.840 Italian name I've ever heard ever. 64 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.960 And if all goes according to plan, this podcast should 65 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:25.599 run on Monday, December thirtieth, Happy almost New Year. 66 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:30.240 It will be the last podcast of twenty twenty four, 67 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:33.639 and in twenty twenty five we will be turning five 68 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:34.919 years old. 69 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:40.439 Yes, which means technically we're starting our sixth season the 70 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:41.000 next day. 71 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:47.039 I think we've stopped demarketing season. I wouldn't even know 72 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.080 what to tell people when they ask what season of 73 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.960 your podcast are you currently on? I don't know. I 74 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:54.879 just go out its episode four hundred something. 75 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:58.879 I don't know this episode should run as podcast episode 76 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:02.800 number four thirty five in Mind Over Murder. Wow. 77 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:07.639

But we've been at it for five years, yes, six seasons. 78 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:10.759 I never thought our plucky little podcast would live to 79 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.199 be the ripe old Age of five or half of 80 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:14.639 the decade, but here we are. 81 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:15.360 Yeah. 82 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:18.639 Absolutely, we want to go ahead and start talking today 83 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:23.319 about what I think is a welcome sentence, and that 84 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.040 is the sentencing of Richard Allen in the Delphi case 85 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:30.639 for the twenty seventeen murders of Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. 86 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:35.360 Richard Allen received a sentence of sixty five years for 87 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.240 each murder to run consecutively. That means a grand total 88 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:44.000 of one hundred and thirty years in prison. And I 89 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.839 really cannot stress enough how much I think he deserves. 90 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:49.079 That couldn't happen to a nicer guy. 91 00:04:49.839 --> 00:04:52.560 If he did not react to the sentence in the courtroom. 92 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:56.680 But the families of both girls spoke out afterward. Now 93 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.800 that the gag order that prevented the families commenting during 94 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.600 or after the trial had been lifted, there was some 95 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.160 excellent reporting from, of course, a number of news outlets. 96 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:10.240 The best that we saw came from ABC News and 97 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:15.360 from WISHTV reporter Jay Adkins. They actually ran the complete 98 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:20.079 text of the German family's victims impact statement. I wanted 99 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.480 to spend a little bit of time quoting from them 100 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.720 because it really is important, I think, to give those 101 00:05:25.759 --> 00:05:29.920 victims impact statements their due, to carry forward the experience 102 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.079 that these families have had over this long and tortuous 103 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:37.360 road from the murder of the girls in twenty seventeen 104 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.639 all the way to this trial. And it has taken 105 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:40.759 them a long time to. 106 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:43.560 Get here, far longer than it should have. And of 107 00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:46.319 course we'll get into some more detail as we go along. 108 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.199 You may recall that Richard Allen was working at CBS 109 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:56.839 in the same town where the girls had been murdered. 110 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:01.199 As we've discussed before, Kristin, he looked like the sketch 111 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:04.720 of the man they said they were looking for five years. 112 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.319 He was a clerk at CVS and he would sometimes 113 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.360 work the register, so he would have been actually checking 114 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:18.240 out members of the investigative team as they made purchases 115 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:23.319 at CVS. I am still completely blown away by the 116 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:28.680 fact that Richard Allen was permitted, through error and circumstance, 117 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:32.959 to continue living his life literally under the noses of 118 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.920 the investigators. As if this loss of these two beautiful 119 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:42.519 young preteen girls wasn't enough. This whole thing has gotten 120 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:47.319 so protracted between five years that Richard Allen somehow went 121 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:52.759 unnoticed and then this lengthy trial that they've been through. 122 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.120 So there's a lot of frustration, which is completely understandable 123 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:58.439 on the part of Abby and Libby's families. 124 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.319 What I'm going to do is I'm to read portions 125 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:05.519 of the victim's impact statements. They are quite lengthy, and 126 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:08.759 to give the entire text of all of them would 127 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.519 be to take up far more time than we have, 128 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:13.160 but I chose what I thought were some of the 129 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:18.000 most impactful passages. This first victim's impact statement is from 130 00:07:18.360 --> 00:07:23.160 Carrie Timmins. She is Liberty German's mother. There was quite 131 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:27.360 a bit of statement before this section, but this is 132 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.240 the section that really tore in my heart. So this 133 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.439 victim's impact statement was given on December twentieth, the day 134 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.399 of the sentencing, and the portion that I am reading 135 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:41.000 starts here. The last twenty eight hundred and sixty seven 136 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:44.800 days have been absolute hell for Libby's and Abby's friends 137 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:49.040 and family. Next week we should be celebrating our birthdays together. 138 00:07:49.480 --> 00:07:53.000 December twenty fifth and December twenty seventh. Libby would be 139 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.199 twenty two. She should be here. I quit celebrating after 140 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:00.959 her fourteenth and my thirty ninth. I can't help but 141 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:03.680 to see her grin at that, understanding the anxiety that 142 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.800 she knew I had about turning the dreaded forty. That 143 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.279 broke my heart. It's so awful to hear that it's 144 00:08:10.319 --> 00:08:13.720 so hard for them to mark the birthdays that they 145 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.639 just stopped doing that. It

makes me choke up in 146 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:17.800 a really terrible way. 147 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.879 You can see how mother and daughter had a little 148 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.040 bit of a running joke going there, because, like a 149 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:27.360 lot of people, Mom had become obsessed with turning forty, 150 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.600 and now that I've turned forty, it doesn't seem like 151 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:35.440 that big a deal. But she's harkening back to something 152 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:38.840 which is clearly like an in joke between mother and daughter, 153 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:41.039 and that part made me smile, but at the same 154 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.480 time it's completely heartbreaking. The other thing that was really 155 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.840 surprising to me was Libby would be twenty two. Years old. Now, 156 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.759 they were quite young at the time of the murders, 157 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:54.240 but so many years have gone by now that Libby 158 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:58.919 would be twenty two years old, which it's because they're 159 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:02.759 frozen in amber we've talked about before, where they'll be perpetually, 160 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:07.159 these young teenage girls. It's hard to picture Libby as 161 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:10.000 a twenty two year old young woman exactly. 162 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:13.559 I know for you, Kathy is forever twenty seven. But 163 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:15.320 how old would Kathy be. 164 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:17.679 Now, I'd have to stop and think about it for 165 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:18.240 a second. 166 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:23.000 Sixty five Well, it has to be a little jarring. 167 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:25.879 When I saw that number, that certainly threw me a 168 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:29.879 little bit. Twenty two years old. It's been eight years, yeah, 169 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:33.120 and she would most certainly be on her way not 170 00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:38.000 only through college, but maybe onto her first career, maybe marriage. 171 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:39.480 It's really jarring to see that. 172 00:09:40.039 --> 00:09:43.840 When you see those numbers, that begins to remind you 173 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.519 of how much the victims and the families have lost, 174 00:09:47.559 --> 00:09:51.480 how much more life has gone on since then. We 175 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.320 were just talking about Kathy. For Kathy to be sixty 176 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.519 five years old now and you think to yourself, oh 177 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:00.200 my gosh, thirty eight years of living has been and 178 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:00.960 lost to her. 179 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:03.559 Yeah, and one of the things that I found in 180 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:07.360 reading those victims' impact statements is the parents and grandparents 181 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:11.039 and family members all

hearken to this idea a number 182 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:14.480 of times. Of what has been lost, not only children, 183 00:10:14.559 --> 00:10:18.759 but grandchildren and great grandchildren. There's a whole generation that 184 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.919 is wiped out, essentially because the girls were wiped out 185 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.960 at such an early age, and that's something that's clearly 186 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.840 on this family's mind. Is very sad to see that. 187 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:32.159 Another section of the victim's impact statement from mis Timmins reads, 188 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.000 I honestly don't know how to process the fact that 189 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.080 a husband and father is capable of the horrendous acts 190 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:42.639 of brutality inflicted upon our beautiful children. I was totally 191 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:46.080 blind to the fact that such evil actually existed. I 192 00:10:46.159 --> 00:10:50.480 don't know which is worse, knowing or not knowing. I'll 193 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.039 never understand how he was able to get away with 194 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:56.120 it for so long? How can such evil hide in 195 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.200 plain sight, continuing to walk down streets line with his picture, 196 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:03.600 making a mockery of law enforcement, the families, the community, 197 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:09.480 and especially Libyan Abbey. For nearly six years. Only Richard 198 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.679 Allen has those answers. He has claimed remorse and a 199 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:15.759 need to apologize. I will not hold my breath waiting, 200 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:19.679 but I do deserve those answers. Libyan Abbey, deserve the 201 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.200 whole truth to come out, and I am all ears. 202 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:27.600 My sense is that, regardless of whatever garbage Richard Allen 203 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:30.919 has spewed over the last several years, I don't think 204 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:34.480 there's ever going to be an explanation or any sort 205 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:35.840 of meaningful apology. 206 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.799 I don't know that any explanation would ultimately be satisfactory. 207 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.600 If you were to hear the reasoning air quotes behind 208 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.679 what happened to Kathy, it wouldn't matter, would it. 209 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:50.000 No, it's not going to bring your loved one back, 210 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:54.480 and there's never going to be a sensible explanation. It 211 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:57.000 isn't two guys got in a fight in a bar 212 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.200 and things went too far and person ended up dead. 213 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:07.679 You could see someone remorsefully wanting to apologize and explain 214 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:13.039 what happened and ask for forgiveness. But in these examples, 215 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:16.279 whether it's the Colonial Parkway murders or the Delphi case 216 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:21.039 or many others, these are strangers, mostly men, lashing out 217 00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.080 at people that are strangers to them, often but not 218 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.279 always women, and in this case quite young. Really, girls, 219 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:33.080 there's no adequate explanation for what drives someone like this. 220 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.720 It's completely senseless, and we've talked about it on the 221 00:12:36.759 --> 00:12:43.200 podcast before. We're trying to apply logic to inherently illogical acts. 222 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:47.519 Well said. The final selection from her victims and hec 223 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:51.200 statement that I wanted to read is the final paragraph. 224 00:12:51.320 --> 00:12:54.440 While there will never really be justice or closure and 225 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.279 nothing will bring my daughter back, I am so very 226 00:12:57.320 --> 00:13:00.919 proud of her for not only exposing her Abby's killer, 227 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.559 but also bringing much needed attention to so many cases 228 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:08.759 near and far. This tragedy hasn't completely stopped Libby from 229 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:12.399 accomplishing at least one dream from beyond the grave. Her 230 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:14.919 courage and strength will live on as she guides us 231 00:13:14.960 --> 00:13:18.720 through this lifetime until we meet again. She is my sunshine. 232 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.840 Carrie Timmins, mother of Liberty German. 233 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:27.080 That's very well spoken, and I'm glad she's finding some 234 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.080 positives here and some reason to take pride in a 235 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.000 daughter she clearly loved very much. 236 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:36.799 The foresight that Libby had to take the video of 237 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.120 the bridge guy, there are grown adults who wouldn't think 238 00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:43.799 to do that. That she was able in whatever moment 239 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:47.159 of fear that she was undergoing to think, let me 240 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:49.919 turn on my camera, let me do this video. I 241 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.840 wouldn't have that foresight. I couldn't do it. I would 242 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.200 probably end up utterly frozen in fear. I really can't 243 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.240 imagine how much bravery it took her to be able 244 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.080 to do that one simple act. And I would say 245 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:04.879 that without that video, they probably would never have found 246 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:05.480 Richard Allen. 247 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:08.799 No, I think you're probably right, especially with all of 248 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:12.320 the other problems in this case and in this prosecution, 249 00:14:12.960

--> 00:14:15.879 I think without that video they would have been completely stalled. 250 00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:19.919 Another portion of a victim's impact statement that I wanted 251 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.720 to outline for you all comes from Mike Patty. He 252 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:29.600 is Liberty German's grandfather. He took an interesting tack in 253 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:34.320 his victim's impact statement in that he addressed not only 254 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:39.159 the defense team, which had multiple issues, the family has 255 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:44.039 multiple I think, very very obvious grievances against them. He 256 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.960 also addressed Richard Allen himself. Again, this is not the 257 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.320 entirety of that victim's impact statement, but I do want 258 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.960 to address each portion of it because I feel these 259 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.279 are very important for people to reflect on as we 260 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.480 look back on what happened in the Delphi case. About 261 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.600 the middle of the statement, after addressing each person in 262 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.399 the room that judge, the prosecution, and so on and 263 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:13.240 so forth, Mike Patty addressed the defense lawyers. He says, defense, 264 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.399 I understand the role you need to play, but I 265 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:19.879 cannot connect the ways of our legal system to allow 266 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:23.679 so many things to interfere with the truth and facts 267 00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:27.399 to simply be brought before a jury. I cannot imagine 268 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.639 our forefathers ever envision the attempts to suppress and divert 269 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.879 the facts would ever be part of our justice system. 270 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:38.720 One should reflect and review their position to support truth, 271 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.360 justice and the American way. Your inept ability to protect 272 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.200 some of the most personal facts in this case, the 273 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.000 crime scene photos, and making statements that you really didn't 274 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:53.440 care they were out there. My family will forever have 275 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.879 to explain how these are available for people to search. 276 00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:02.080 What do I say to my kids' grandchildren and great grandchildren, Well, 277 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:05.519 will you tell your grandkids? I hope you tell them 278 00:16:05.519 --> 00:16:09.360 the truth. I surely will. For this I will never forget. 279 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:13.879 Mike's reference is to the fact that the defense was 280 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:18.000 so careless with these graphic crime scene photos of the 281 00:16:18.039 --> 00:16:21.600 two young girls after they'd been murdered. They had

these 282 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:26.399 all spread out in a conference room which was not secure, 283 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.000 so that an individual who had done some work for 284 00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:32.240 them in the past had come into their office and 285 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.639 had wandered into the conference room where he saw these 286 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.279 graphic photographs, and then my recollection is that he took 287 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:44.039 pictures of the photographs as displayed in the conference room. 288 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.679 There's no effort whatsoever to keep those photos under lock 289 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:50.919 and key, and that's how those photos ended up being 290 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:56.320 very unfortunately leaked, and the Murder Sheet podcast, if I'm 291 00:16:56.360 --> 00:17:00.480 not mistaken, had run those photographs put them up on 292 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.840 the internet. I think this is absolutely grotesque and what 293 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.680 a failure on the part of the defense team, who 294 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.519 have a job to do and a very important role 295 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.079 to play. Just seems so uncaring and even negligent in 296 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.799 terms of how they handled these crime team photos. It's 297 00:17:17.960 --> 00:17:22.359 just grotesque. It seems beyond heartless. It's like they didn't 298 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.640 care and they just left them out there in their 299 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.960 conference room. And this isn't a place that had proper security, 300 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.839 so that this man is just allowed to wander in 301 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.640 there and start snapping pictures with his cell phone. 302 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.160 Again because in the Colonial Parkway murders. We have also 303 00:17:38.680 --> 00:17:43.039 seen the leak of crime scene photos, graphic ones related 304 00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:47.920 to your sister, Robin Edwards, David Knobling, Anna Maria Phelps, 305 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:53.000 Daniel Lauer, and Keith Collin Cassada Haley's cases. We of 306 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.359 course understand where this is coming from. I just I 307 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.960 cannot fathom someone who would see that and their first 308 00:18:01.000 --> 00:18:05.400 impulse is I'll take pictures because everybody else has the 309 00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:08.680 right to see that too. There is no one who 310 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:12.880 has the right to see what that absolute monster did 311 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:16.640 to savage those two girls. No one deserves to see that. 312 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:21.240 That is not anything that lends itself to an understanding 313 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.680 of what happened in this case. The only people who 314 00:18:23.720 --> 00:18:27.480 should have seen that were investigators and maybe eventually the jury. 315 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.279 The fact that now that is available out there on 316 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.799 the Internet and will always be out there because the 317 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.279 Internet is forever. You can't take this stuff back. I 318 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.480 feel terrible for these families, I truly do. 319 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:42.960 And at the same time, in the Colonial Parkway murders, 320 00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:47.160 the FBI is directly responsible for these photos leaking because 321 00:18:47.319 --> 00:18:50.480 they failed to secure the photos, which were then stolen 322 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:55.640 by an FBI photographer. The thing that I'm still amazed 323 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:57.799 by is every once in a while, someone will reach 324 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.359 out to me and they'll ask me the other of 325 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.400 a murder victim where they can see the crime scene 326 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.400 photos from the Colonial Parkway murders. And my attitude is, 327 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.680 I don't think so. I've seen those photographs, and I'm sorry. 328 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.759 I've seen those photographs, and the rest of the world, 329 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:17.680 in my opinion, doesn't need to see those graphic photographs. 330 00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.720 Should our case ever go to a trial. I understand 331 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:25.279 that they may be used, and that jurors and judges 332 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:28.240 and attorneys would have to see the crime scene photos. 333 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:33.000 I see no reason for those photos to be out 334 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.200 there on the internet, particularly highly graphic crime scene photos 335 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:39.519 like we've seen in the Colonial Parkway murders and the 336 00:19:39.559 --> 00:19:41.359 Delphi case and so many others. 337 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.720 Say, for anybody who is out there right now thinking 338 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.880 that they really do want to see crime scene photos, 339 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.599 like that's the thing that's going to enrich their life, No, 340 00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:54.039 it's not. It really is not. As Bill has said, 341 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:57.039 he wishes he could unsee those photos. Take it from me, 342 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.759 I wish I could unsee them as well. And you can't. 343 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:02.559 They live rent free in the back of your head 344 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:04.960 for the rest of your life. It doesn't matter how 345 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.160 old the case is. There are still people out there 346 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.640 who will look up the Manson photos or the photos 347 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:14.400 from Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman's case. You don't 348 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.279 want to see these the people who are out there 349 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.279 for the prurient

interest of it. I don't understand you. 350 00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:25.119 I don't. It's very distressing. Mike Patty then took a 351 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:29.440 moment to address Richard Allen himself. I applaud the fact 352 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.279 that he does not refer to him by name. He 353 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:35.279 just calls him the convict, which good for him, Yeah, 354 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:39.640 really good. He doesn't deserve another name. He starts this way, 355 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.759 he says, convict. I will never understand how you could 356 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.839 have conducted such an atrocity. You killed my granddaughter nearly 357 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:50.160 eight years ago and have only thought of yourself. Your 358 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:53.119 attempts of self preservation are a result of how you 359 00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:55.599 really are once you committed this crime. You could have 360 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:59.039 been a man, stood up and taken accountability, but you didn't. 361 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:02.200 At any time during these proceedings, you could have stood 362 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.559 up and taken responsibility, but you didn't, and were only 363 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:08.440 concerned about yourself and tried to get away with murder. 364 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:12.400 Actions always speak louder than words. By being so selfish, 365 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.079 you continue to punish and hurt my family. For this, 366 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:20.039 I will never forget. Your act of murder has tested 367 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.319 my faith. I am still not ready to provide forgiveness. 368 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:25.799 When I am able to, it will be for my 369 00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:30.960 faith and conscience, not yours or this I will never forget. 370 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:32.920 I understand how he feels. 371 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.039 I cannot imagine what this does to someone who has 372 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:43.319 a deep seated religious belief in conviction. I am more 373 00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:45.599 of a spiritual person than I am a religious person, 374 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:49.319 but I don't know how I would possibly deal with 375 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.839 what this would do to my own faith if this 376 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:55.200 were something that I was directly impacted by. I feel 377 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.400 nothing but compassion and sorrow for these families to have 378 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.559 to be dealing with this. He continues, I've never felt 379 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.960 such hatred and should not be this way toward another 380 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.000 human being. What you've done is impacted so many people's lives. 381 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.559 We will heal with the help of our pastor. I'm 382 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.599 lucky to have a great family and will enjoy the 383 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.400 rest of my life

helping and watching all of them grow, 384 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.480 from our kids to our great grandchildren. This is something 385 00:22:18.519 --> 00:22:20.680 you will not get to take away. You will never 386 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:23.640 get to experience such joy and love as what my 387 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.960 family has. Lastly, I hope the rest of your days 388 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.119 are spending as much fear as the girls had to 389 00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:31.960 experience the last part of their lives, and hope those 390 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.240 moments haunt you for the rest of your days. You 391 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.920 deserve no better. Now is the time to stand up 392 00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:39.759 and take accountability, put a stop to any future attempts 393 00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:42.359 at appeal, so we can let Libby rest in peace. 394 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:43.640 Said mister Patty. 395 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.759 I wonder if he'll appeal. Most likely he will. Usually 396 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.599 you do see appeals in most murder convictions. I hope 397 00:22:51.640 --> 00:22:54.960 his appeals go nowhere, because, as near as I can tell, 398 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.960 this convict, as Mike Patty refers to them, has been 399 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.839 and given every opportunity to prove his innocence and has 400 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:05.480 failed to do so. 401 00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.880 I really do. The fact that he does not give 402 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.200 Richard Allen even the dignity of his own name. I 403 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:14.599 think that was a great move on his part. And 404 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:16.759 the fact that he and any of the other family 405 00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.559 members are able to stand up in court and face 406 00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:23.640 him speak to him in this way. This is an 407 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:25.960 act of bravery, of which I don't think I would 408 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:30.079 be capable. I have nothing but admiration for these families. 409 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.319 I saw an interesting article earlier today where they were 410 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:39.480 discussing these recent commutations of federal death penalty sentences, and 411 00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:42.200 one of the things that the author said in the 412 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:46.480 article was he was referencing specific cases, but he talked 413 00:23:46.519 --> 00:23:49.759 about the victims. In this case, there were multiple victims. 414 00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:54.160 These were people that have been killed in multiple murder incidents. 415 00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:56.759 He made a point of saying he was not going 416 00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.759 to mention the names of the offenders. Difference the case 417 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:02.759 is so in ways that you were very clear who 418 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.440 you were talking about. He refused to use the names,

419 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:10.079 and I actually thought something we should probably all try 420 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:11.880 to do that a bit more than we have. 421 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.880 That is something that I first picked up on from 422 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.680 the folks of Real Crime Profile, who always make a 423 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.759 point of saying the offender's name as few times as possible. 424 00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:27.039 Laura Richards, for example, really made a point when I 425 00:24:27.079 --> 00:24:30.119 was listening to their coverage about Nicole Brown Simpson and 426 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.720 Ron Goldman of never referring to it as the OJ 427 00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:37.079 Simpson case, which most people did, yes and still do. 428 00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:39.960 It is not the OJ Simpson case. It is the 429 00:24:40.359 --> 00:24:44.039 Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman case because they were the victims. 430 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.039 His name needs to be out of the narrative entirely. 431 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.519 And so I think that's really important, and that's something 432 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:56.599 that I'm hoping as a culture, as a true crime community, 433 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.079 that's something that we're going to try to spend a 434 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.759 little bit more time focusing on really making sure that 435 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.440 we don't give the offenders any more of a voice 436 00:25:05.480 --> 00:25:06.640 than they deserve to have. 437 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:09.680 I think we should all be trying to refer to 438 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.039 the case we're discussing at this moment as the Delphi 439 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:17.680 case or the Liberty German Abby Williams case. Let's try 440 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.920 not to give the offenders in this and many other 441 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:26.039 cases a voice because they deserve obscurity. 442 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:30.400 Yeah, agreed. And that statement there, Bill, I think is 443 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:34.119 actually something that is going to play into our next 444 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.720 point of discussion, the next case that we're discussing here. 445 00:25:36.839 --> 00:25:40.720 Very shortly, I want to finish up with a selection 446 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.720 from the victim's impact statement from Becky Patty, and she 447 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:49.640 is Liberty German's grandmother. It addresses not only the loss 448 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:52.319 to their family in the terms of the things that 449 00:25:52.359 --> 00:25:55.480 the girls will no longer have or be able to experience. 450 00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.000 And it also discusses further the consequences of the crime 451 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:02.720 scene photo for her family, which her husband referenced in 452 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.920 his impact statement. This is from Becky Patty and she 453 00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:10.000 is speaking about the loss of Abby and Libby. Our 454 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.359 lives turned upside down that day, never to be the 455 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.119 same again. Abby and Libby two young teens with their 456 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:18.480 entire futures ahead of them. They never got the opportunity 457 00:26:18.519 --> 00:26:20.599 to make their marks in the world. He stole that 458 00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:23.640 from them. Libby never got to go to prom, graduate, 459 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:25.880 go on dates, go to college, get married, or start 460 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.119 a family. She never got to be the best aunt ever. 461 00:26:29.559 --> 00:26:31.960 He robbed us. All the world was robbed of what 462 00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:34.799 could have been all the while he went on living 463 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:36.960 his life. He was able to walk his daughter down 464 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.480 the aisle and give her away at her wedding. I 465 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:41.519 wonder did he think of the girls at all while 466 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:44.920 walking her down that aisle. Our families will never get 467 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:47.680 the privilege of watching Libby or Abby walk down the aisle. 468 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.039 He took that away from us. 469 00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:54.359 I had forgotten that. I was reading her impact statement 470 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.799 that came back to me that I forgot his daughter 471 00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:59.920 had gotten married and that he had walked through down 472 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.160 the aisle. I was shocked. How I must have put 473 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:05.119 some of that out of my mind, because of course 474 00:27:05.160 --> 00:27:07.559 I tried not to think about him too much. I 475 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:10.519 was mostly focused on the girls and their families and 476 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:12.880 hoping that the would be justice at the end of 477 00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:17.640 this process. I'd forgotten that this guy is a father, 478 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.440 and it just somehow it makes it even more creepy 479 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.880 that he was walking his daughter down the aisle between 480 00:27:24.920 --> 00:27:28.119 the time that the murders took place and this eviction 481 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:30.799 was announced on December. 482 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:32.839 Twentieth, It just boggles the mind. 483 00:27:35.079 --> 00:27:37.799 You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 484 00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:55.920 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 485 00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:56.880 mindover Murder. 486 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.279 And as Patty talked about the impact of the crime 487 00:28:02.279 --> 00:28:05.000 scene photo Elite in the same way that her husband did, 488 00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:07.039 this is the last portion that we're going to share 489 00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:09.160 with

you all from that impact statement. The impact of 490 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.119 Richard Allen's choices made that day has haunted our families 491 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.880 for almost eight years and continues even now. Because of 492 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.000 choices he made and subsequent arrest. He was appointed two 493 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.720 lawyers to defend him. Those lawyers have done nothing but 494 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.440 twist the knife around and around in our wounds Richard 495 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.119 caused that day. Because of one lawyer's sloppiness, sealed crime 496 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.799 scene photos of Libby's naked and mutilated body were left unattended, 497 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.519 allowing images to be taken and spread around to people 498 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:36.519 on the internet. As recent as this week, those crime 499 00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:38.880 scene photos were still being shared on the internet for 500 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.759 no good reason but entertainment by many. Sharing those photos 501 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.759 changes nothing. It doesn't solve the crime, it doesn't bring 502 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.039 the girls back. So now, because of Richard Allen's choices 503 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.160 that day and his lawyer's sloppiness, the impact has now 504 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:55.680 become generational for us. One day, when Libby's nieces or 505 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:58.240 nephews decide they want to learn more about their aunt Libby, 506 00:28:58.359 --> 00:29:01.200 they may be faced with those horrible crime scene photos 507 00:29:01.400 --> 00:29:04.359 that were so carelessly taken care of. I wonder if 508 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:06.920 his lawyer would have been so careless with those photos 509 00:29:07.079 --> 00:29:09.200 if they were photos of one of his children. 510 00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.400 You pick up on the anger and the hurt. She's 511 00:29:12.519 --> 00:29:16.640 right about every aspect of this. These lawyers were horrible. 512 00:29:16.880 --> 00:29:18.880 They have a job to do, as we talked about, 513 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:23.920 but leaving crime team photos displayed out and on display 514 00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.200 in your conference room for any visitor to see is 515 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.279 just unbelievably sloppy. 516 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:31.839 The word that I thought was most interesting to me 517 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:35.839 was this concept of generational trauma, because it does become 518 00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:39.359 that this echoes down through generations. The one thing that 519 00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:45.480 I really recall from this past October when we dedicated 520 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:50.559 Keith Call's monument at the Rosewelt Cemetery in Gloucester, I 521 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:55.920 recall meeting Keith's siblings and then their children as well, 522 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.319 but really did pit home for me. This doesn't just 523 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:03.319 affect one generation of people. It carries on and on. 524 00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.559 I know you have a son, Bill, and I assume 525 00:30:06.599 --> 00:30:08.519 that at some point or another, if he has children, 526 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.960 he'll have to explain to his kids this is what 527 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:15.359 happened to Kathy. And that's not a conversation that anybody 528 00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:17.839 should relish. It must be awful to think. 529 00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.759 About, no question about it. And this idea of a 530 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:26.519 generational trauma is very real. These crimes have that ripple effect, 531 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.240 like dropping a pebblon a pond, and it just ripples 532 00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.480 out further and further, obviously having the greatest impact on 533 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:36.160 the people that were closest to that lost loved one, 534 00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:40.920 but the entire community is impacted by these things. It's 535 00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:45.279 heartbreaking to see Libyan Abbey's families go through this, and 536 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.240 as painful as the process has been, it's situations like 537 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.319 the leak of the crime scene photos and some of 538 00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:56.240 the incompetence of the law enforcement investigation which allowed this 539 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:58.759 case to stretch on far longer than it should have. 540 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:03.319 It's worth mentioning that this case wouldn't have broken if 541 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.359 it weren't for a clerk going back through crime scene 542 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.559 evidence and finding a misfiled report that gave a clear 543 00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.680 indication that the suspect put himself at the bridge on 544 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:20.480 the day of the girl's little murder. Unfortunately, that very 545 00:31:20.519 --> 00:31:24.720 important interview was misfiled. It was not filed I think 546 00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:27.319 under his name, which is what it should have been. 547 00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.880 It was filed under the street name. If I'm not mistaken. 548 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:32.880 I just read an article about this in the last 549 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.759 twenty four hours and they were highlighting the fact that 550 00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:40.680 this clerk is responsible for not the misfile but finding 551 00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:44.480 that very important piece of information five years after the fact, 552 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:47.000 that if she had not found that file, it might 553 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:50.640 never have surfaced because there were so many documents and 554 00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.440 hundreds of interviews. Law enforcement was scrambling to try to 555 00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:59.039 move this case forward, and

unfortunately mistakes happened. This misfile 556 00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.160 was something that led directly to this multi year delay 557 00:32:03.400 --> 00:32:07.759 in identifying Alan as a suspect, and they mentioned that 558 00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:11.839 within a month or so of the discovery of this 559 00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:16.119 missing interview, they realized that he was a very likely 560 00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:19.519 suspect and they began looking into him and it was 561 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.440 within a matter of weeks they matched shells found at 562 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:26.880 the scene to a gun that he owned, and they 563 00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:30.039 began to build a very strong case with a lot 564 00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:34.079 of evidence. That five year gap between the murder of 565 00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:38.519 the two girls and discovery this information was so critical 566 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:42.400 and as a result of this clerk's review, the case 567 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.839 began moving forward again. 568 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:48.200 I did find a couple of quotes from Abby's grandmother, 569 00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:52.240 Diane Erskin. She commented that the sentence scene was a 570 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:54.599 day of great sadness for their family. She said, we 571 00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:57.759 will not be going home to celebrate with champagne. She 572 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:01.319 also said, and it also speaks a lot, I think 573 00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:04.880 to her bravery. The last words that Abby spoke on 574 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:08.839 Libby's phone, and I'm assuming that's the video depicting Bridge Guy. 575 00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.920 Her last words were, don't leave me up here. Her 576 00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:15.880 grandmother opted not to leave the Delphi trial, even during 577 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:20.079 moments of really emotionally wrenching testimony, because she did not 578 00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:23.559 want to leave her granddaughter up there, and that just 579 00:33:23.599 --> 00:33:24.440 broke my heart. 580 00:33:25.240 --> 00:33:27.480 Yeah, and she said, I will never be the same 581 00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:31.240 person I was before Abby's murder. And we'll link to 582 00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:34.920 the full impact statements, which are thoughtful and beautifully written, 583 00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:36.799 and we'll include those in our show notes. 584 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.279 Our second topic that we really want to delve into 585 00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:45.480 is the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson by 586 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:50.200 suspect Luigi Mangione. Mangione is a twenty six year old 587 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.680 Ivy League educated gentleman with a wealthy family who murdered 588 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:58.960 Thompson on the street outside the New York hotel where 589 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.119 he was attending a conference. And that is seemingly out 590 00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:07.079 of a personal vendetta against the health insurance system. When 591 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.119 this came to light, what two three weeks ago, maybe 592 00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:13.199 it's all running together. In that frantic period leading up 593 00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:17.119 to the holidays, it sounded like something out of a movie. 594 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:20.679 Someone assassinating someone right on the street in New York, 595 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.400 a man hunt chasing down all the CCTV leads. It 596 00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:25.280 was pretty crazy. 597 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:29.360 I have to be complementary of the NYPD and the 598 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:34.519 law enforcement agencies that were involved. We've talked about situations 599 00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:38.639 where law enforcement does not seem to trust the American public, 600 00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:42.679 and this was a situation where it was by putting 601 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:47.760 out the information and very importantly the images of this 602 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:51.719 suspect that led directly to his being arrested a fairly 603 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.840 short few days later. There's so many more cameras out 604 00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:56.920 there in the world. 605 00:34:56.920 --> 00:34:57.400 Oh yeah. 606 00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.719 And one of the things I thought was very smart 607 00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:02.400 on the part of law enforcement in the murder of 608 00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:06.360 Brian Thompson was they put out photographs almost as they 609 00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:11.119 found them. So the initial shots were dark and blurry, 610 00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.599 was early morning, but you could see the suspect walking 611 00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:17.960 up behind mister Thompson and shooting him, but they didn't 612 00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:22.079 show the suspect's face particularly clearly. What I thought was 613 00:35:22.239 --> 00:35:26.199 very smart was within twenty four hours, suddenly there were 614 00:35:26.280 --> 00:35:30.760 more photographs turning up as they retraced this man's steps. 615 00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:32.519 And then the next thing you know, you've got a 616 00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:36.599 photograph where he wasn't wearing the surgical mask which he'd 617 00:35:36.599 --> 00:35:40.159 been wearing in the I'll call it an assassination. So 618 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:42.480 the next thing you know, we've got some photographs where 619 00:35:42.519 --> 00:35:47.079 he's smiling at the clerk at the hostel where he 620 00:35:47.239 --> 00:35:51.159 was staying. They said that he had stopped to flirt 621 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:54.280 with this young woman who was behind the register that 622 00:35:54.360 --> 00:35:56.880 resulted in him taking off his mask. A couple of 623 00:35:57.000 --> 00:36:00.320 days later, they had photographs of him in the back 624 00:36:00.440 -->

00:36:04.239 seat of the cab, and of course I'd forgotten nowadays 625 00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.159 there are cameras in cabs, and so there was a 626 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:11.320 very clear picture of him peeking through the gap where 627 00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:13.599 the little window is between the front seat and the 628 00:36:13.639 --> 00:36:16.079 back seat in a New York City cab. So they 629 00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:20.079 were able to put together a pretty good chronology of 630 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:23.559 where the suspect had gone. He'd hopped on a city 631 00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:26.519 bike and had ridden into Central Park. Then they found 632 00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:29.800 a backpack that matched the backpack and the photographs and 633 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:32.920 monopoly money, which is a very sort of odd detail. 634 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:37.320 CCTV cameras showed him exiting Central Park further to the 635 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.960 north and onto the west side. Then he jumps in 636 00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:42.119 a cab, which I think was a huge mistake. By 637 00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:45.280 the way, Oh yeah, because here he is in the 638 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:47.760 back seat of a cab and his face is clearly 639 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:51.480 showing up on the dashcam of the cabby. By putting 640 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:55.480 those photographs out there and providing more and more information 641 00:36:55.679 --> 00:36:58.760 and fairly quickly to the American public, that meant that 642 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.559 people all over the country we're looking for this guy. 643 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.360 No one knew he was going to end up in Altoona, Pennsylvania, 644 00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.800 a couple of hours away from New York City. By 645 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:11.519 putting out those photographs and getting them out on the 646 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:15.519 internet national media, that allowed the public to play a 647 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.559 role here. I know there's been some people who have 648 00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:22.199 expressed sympathy for the shooter, which I think is pretty absurd. 649 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.320 A guy at least is charged with being a brutal 650 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:30.599 murderer murdering a complete stranger. While I understand the frustration 651 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:34.000 with the insurance industry, and I have my own stories 652 00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:38.760 about that, it doesn't make gunning down a father of 653 00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:43.440 two and a CEO of a company any more acceptable. 654 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:47.400 Even though I think many of the business practices of 655 00:37:47.559 --> 00:37:51.800 America's insurance companies are completely reprehensible, I don't think gunning 656 00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.559 down the CEOs of those companies is really moving us forward. 657 00:37:56.920 --> 00:37:59.840 No, I agree, and this sort of elevation to folk 658

00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:03.719 hero status that some people have compared him to. He's 659 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.719 getting compared to Robin Hood and so on and so forth. 660 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:08.320 I want to come back to that in a minute, 661 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.119 because I do think exploring this concept of absurdity, which 662 00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.599 is what it is, is really important. One of the 663 00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:16.679 things that I was really intrigued by. When I was 664 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:19.639 sitting down to do my research for this episode, I 665 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.920 came across some excellent reporting from the CNN Crime and 666 00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:27.039 Justice Team, and they did a quite extensive article about 667 00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:32.559 trip from Huntington, Pennsylvania, where Mantani had been, and the 668 00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:36.800 trip that took him into New York for his first 669 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:41.559 set of courtroom appearances. It was very interesting to me 670 00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:47.320 the way that they approached this particular attempt at transporting 671 00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:50.719 this guy. So I want to lay out what exactly 672 00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:53.880 happened and get your feeling. Is somebody who did live 673 00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.559 in New York for a while, I would love to 674 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.559 know your thoughts on why precisely NYPD did this the 675 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:02.079 way that they did. This Thursday the nineteenth, he was 676 00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:05.480 taken from Huntington, Pennsylvania, where he had been since his arrest, 677 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:09.440 and was transported to Manhattan. The CNN Crime and Justice 678 00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:13.079 Team noted that there was an unusual amount of pomp 679 00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:16.679 and circumstance behind this, including a ride in a New 680 00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.840 York Police Department helicopter from from Islap, New York. He 681 00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:24.360 arrived at a heliport on Wall Street in said NYPD 682 00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:29.280 helicopter tourists were seen taking photos of him. When he arrived, 683 00:39:29.639 --> 00:39:32.960 CNN quoted as saying he was surrounded by a swarm 684 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:37.719 of gun toting NYPG officers in a slow, lengthy purp 685 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:41.239 walk from the helicopter into a black van, with cameras 686 00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:45.199 catching every step. It was almost Hannibal Lecter esque. Defense 687 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:48.840 attorney Jeremy Saland told CNN and as soon as I 688 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:53.559 started seeing photos of Mangione surrounded by police officers doing 689 00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:55.320 the sort of purp walk, I was like, Oh, that's 690 00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:58.559 exactly what it feels like. That moment in Silence of 691 00:39:58.599 --> 00:40:01.960 the Lambs when they're moving Lector from the Baltimore and 692 00:40:02.039 --> 00:40:04.480 Sane Asylum to Brushy Mountain State Prison and meet with 693 00:40:04.519 --> 00:40:07.760 the Senator to trade information about Buffalo Bill. That's really 694 00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.920 what it looked like. It actually sent chills down my spine. 695 00:40:11.000 --> 00:40:13.920 The CNN Crime and Justice Team wanted to get into 696 00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:17.000 that Purp Walk, and so they discussed the fact that 697 00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.159 right behind the New York Police Department officers escorting him 698 00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:24.599 were the Mayor Eric Adams and the New York Police 699 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.920 Department Police Commissioner. Eric Adams was quoted as saying, we 700 00:40:28.000 --> 00:40:30.960 wanted to personally be here to show the symbolism of 701 00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:35.280 leading from the front. Another CNN correspondent on the ground said, 702 00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:37.800 I've never seen anything like this, but they want the 703 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:41.360 photo opportunity to show what they believe we got our guy. 704 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.719 Yeah. Eric Adams has had his share of bad publicity 705 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:49.679 in recent months, so I think he had his own 706 00:40:49.880 --> 00:40:52.800 reasons for wanting to be in those photographs. The whole 707 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:56.840 Purp Walk thing has always baffled me. Law enforcement in 708 00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:59.400 New York and lots of other cities and towns across 709 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.840 the country is very big on. As they move an 710 00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.119 offender who at that point hasn't been convicted of anything, 711 00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:09.360 He's only a suspect. From point A to point B, 712 00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:15.159 there is an effort made to parade this person before 713 00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.480 the public. I'm not saying I've never been interested in 714 00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:22.000 seeing Sometimes I am very interested in laying eyes on 715 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:25.480 a particular suspect. This one included, but it strikes me 716 00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:29.440 as very strange. And then this lengthy walk from point 717 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:31.840 A to point B, the whole thing just strikes me 718 00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:35.400 as very odd. But usually you'll see some even a 719 00:41:35.679 --> 00:41:39.639 suspect in a capital murder investigation with maybe a police 720 00:41:39.679 --> 00:41:44.199 officer on either side of them, not surrounded by everyone 721 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:48.199 under the sun, all heavily armed, including the mayor and 722 00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:53.360 the police commissioner. Given the amount of negative publicity surrounding 723 00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.159 Mayor Eric Adams and the NYPD, I think they were 724 00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.639 looking for some

good news, as they say. 725 00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:04.039 I was really interested in this quote from a law 726 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:07.719 enforcement and intelligence analyst at CNN. His name is John Miller. 727 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:11.079 He said, the security around Manngione is because of what 728 00:42:11.119 --> 00:42:13.800 they've been seeing in terms of the public support for 729 00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:16.960 him and their security worries about someone not trying to 730 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:20.679 attack him, but to try and free him from law enforcement. 731 00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:24.920 That blew my mind that would even cross their mind 732 00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:27.840 that somebody might try to free this guy's jail break 733 00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.559 him in the middle of this big, splashy purp walk. 734 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:33.239 I've never met John Miller, but I've been watching him 735 00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.960 on television for decades because, of course I lived in 736 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.559 New York and he was the longtime spokesperson for the 737 00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:44.320 NYPD in addition to being an on camera reporter in 738 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:46.800 New York. He knows what he's talking about, though, in 739 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:51.840 terms of his sources inside law enforcement are impeccable because 740 00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:54.320 he knows so many people and has been around for 741 00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.880 so long. I thought that was an interesting observation that 742 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.000 their concerns were about someone trying to break him out. 743 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:05.239 I'm not sure that the parading of suspects, as I said, 744 00:43:05.239 --> 00:43:08.000 from point A to point B, is really necessary. It 745 00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:10.679 actually strikes me as fairly risky. 746 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:14.039 And prejudicial as well. One of the justice correspondents on 747 00:43:14.119 --> 00:43:17.800 CNN said, you are obviously, like right there, really highly 748 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.559 prejudicing any potential jewelry pool against them because you've given 749 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:24.119 them this big public spectacle, and. 750 00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:27.880 You could load a suspect into a van, for example, 751 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:31.840 inside a police garage and we would never see the suspect. 752 00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:35.440 This seems almost unnecessary. They do it all the time, 753 00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.320 so much so that it has that name perp Walk. 754 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:41.719 The fact that there was a lot of really heavy, 755 00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:45.559 especially on social media of course, support for what this 756 00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:49.400 man did to the CEO of United Healthcare, it absolutely 757 00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:53.199 baffled me. I have friends who I count to be 758 00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:57.920 very decent, moral people who were actually applauding the fact 759 00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:01.280 that he had plugged Brian tom send their words in 760 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.400 the middle of the street. I said, are you absolutely 761 00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:08.079 kidding me? You're fine with somebody murdering another person in 762 00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:10.840 cold blood? And they said, Brian Thompson wasn't another person, 763 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.960 he was a CEO scumbag who runs United Healthcare. 764 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:19.760 Gobsmacked me the frustration. But I sure, I don't see 765 00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:22.400 how that rises to the level we're all going to 766 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:25.920 be applauding someone who's a brutal murderer who shot this 767 00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:26.639 man to death. 768 00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:30.119 Yeah, I would. I think it's safe to say that 769 00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:33.519 we both have our own issues with health insurance in 770 00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:38.559 this country, as probably most people do. But I do not, 771 00:44:38.840 --> 00:44:41.519 in any way, shape or form, support any form of 772 00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.559 vigilanteism to show your dissatisfaction with the system as a whole. 773 00:44:46.840 --> 00:44:50.480 It's not something that you do in a civilized society. 774 00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:55.159 We don't stoop to vigilanteism. We just don't. The fact 775 00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:58.280 that there were people that I knew and liked who 776 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:01.159 were like, you know what, it's totally fine that guy 777 00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:03.079 got what was that guy got what was coming to 778 00:45:03.159 --> 00:45:05.760 him really upset and disturbed me, and still continues to 779 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:06.320 disturb me. 780 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:09.960 It'll be interesting to see what else comes out at trial. 781 00:45:10.360 --> 00:45:13.679 Recent articles I've read indicate that I'm not even sure 782 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:19.320 that Manchione actually had selected Brian Thompson some of the 783 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.159 articles I've read more recently, and I think we'll see 784 00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:24.519 a lot more of this in the coming weeks and months. 785 00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:26.639 I think he may have been willing to kill any 786 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:30.800 CEO of any healthcare company, most of whom were attending 787 00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:35.119 that investor's conference that particular day. But I think this 788 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.079 is a conversation that we'll have to continue. 789 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.920 So that is going to do it for this final 790 00:45:41.119 --> 00:45:44.840 episode for twenty twenty four of mind Over Murder. From 791 00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:49.719 our families to yours. Have a happy and healthy holiday season. 792 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:51.760 Join us again in the new year as we start 793 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:55.480 our fifth year of the mind Over Murder podcast, and 794 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.519 we are committed to continuing to bring you excellent content. 795 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:01.159 Thank you so much for listen name We'll see you 796 00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:01.639 next time. 797 00:46:10.840 --> 00:46:14.360 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 798 00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:15.920 Another Dog Productions. 799 00:46:16.480 --> 00:46:19.800 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 800 00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:22.559 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 801 00:46:23.199 --> 00:46:25.239 Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 802 00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:29.719 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 803 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.639 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 804 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:36.440 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 805 00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:38.400 Murders on Facebook. 806 00:46:38.119 --> 00:46:41.159 And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 807 00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:42.800 Bill Thomas five six. 808 00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:46.360 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 809 00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.320 No cont