Full Transcript for 76. Sunk Cost Fallacy, Digital Health and Startups & Becoming More Than a Physician | Rami Wehbi, DO

have a unique perspective when it comes to looking at healthcare, looking 35 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.320 at what it means to be coming a physician, right? 36 00:01:59.320 --> 00:02:03.760 And it's just a perspective that's so unique that I really want to delve into it. 37 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:08.800 So why don't you take us through what sunken cost fallacy is and kind of how that relates 38 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:09.800 to you? 39 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:10.800 Sure. 40 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:11.800 Yeah. 41 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:13.400 So I'll give you a quick background about myself. 42 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:15.800 So this all makes sense, too. 43 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:24.340 But trained in Michigan, went to medical school there, did some of family medicine training 44 00:02:24.340 --> 00:02:28.180 that about two years of family medicine training, a little bit more than two years of family 45 00:02:28.180 --> 00:02:36.520 medicine training than I actually left residency to pursue a more business-oriented path in 46 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:37.520 medicine. 47 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.000 And there's obviously a lot more nuance than that, and I'm happy to get into it. 48 00:02:41.000 --> 00:02:48.560 But one of the things I really thought about a lot was the sunken cost fallacy, and 49 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:55.280 it wasn't really until I left, I think until I left my training that this all started 50 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:57.200 to make sense. 51 00:02:57.200 --> 00:03:05.560 But especially as physicians, we spent, we invest so much money, time, effort, resources 52 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:06.960 into becoming doctors. 53 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:14.960 And essentially put on the golden handcuffs, as we call it, and it makes us stuck in our 54 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:16.960 careers. 55 00:03:16.960 --> 00:03:24.440 And I tried to figure, like I knew, and maybe my second year of medical school, maybe this 56 00:03:24.440 --> 00:03:29.600 isn't for me, fourth year of medical school, I contemplated just graduating and not doing 57 00:03:29.600 --> 00:03:32.200 residency. 58 00:03:32.200 --> 00:03:34.160 After my first year, I resigned. 59 00:03:34.160 --> 00:03:39.520 I got cold feet, and then I transferred to a new program, and thinking things might get 60 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:40.520 better. 61 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:44.560 And then after my second year, I called it quits for good. 62 00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:50.960 Because I knew it ultimately wasn't leading me down the path that I wanted to go down. 63 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:54.920 It would have been nice to finish just to have that, just sometimes it's nice to hang 64 00:03:54.920 --> 00:03:57.840 the paper on the wall and do it. 65 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:02.680 But it just reached the point where I was really unhappy. 66 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.360 And I knew that even when I did finish, I was going to go and do the things I was already 67 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.880 doing, or setting

myself up to do. 68 00:04:09.880 --> 00:04:17.360 And so I had to grapple with how do I justify leaving a career in medicine, leaving, you 69 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.800 don't quote unquote, I don't feel like I've actually left a career in medicine. 70 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:27.000 I'm just working in a different part of the healthcare scene. 71 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:29.800 And I had to figure out how to justify that. 72 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:38.560 And one of the things that the SONCOS FALSE does is it confuses us. 73 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:41.560 It's a cognitive bias. 74 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.320 It's hardwired into us. 75 00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:51.800 Because evolutionarily, when we need it, anything that we invested money time or effort into 76 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:53.720 was key to our survival. 77 00:04:53.720 --> 00:05:00.360 And so it wouldn't make sense to leave something you invest a lot into. 78 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:06.360 But when you think about living a fulfilling life, sometimes you have to do that. 79 00:05:06.360 --> 00:05:13.560 And for me, it was just kind of creating a new perspective on how I can look at things 80 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:17.360 to make it make sense to me, because it didn't make sense. 81 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.520 And to everybody around me, it didn't make sense. 82 00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:24.960 But I knew that if I could reframe it and make it so that my brain didn't play tricks 83 00:05:24.960 --> 00:05:31.680 on me and wasn't influenced by outside influence, then I could probably, I could do this. 84 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.600 And without being like hung up on it. 85 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:44.440 And one of the things that I did was I tried to think of it in terms of a fellowship. 86 00:05:45.440 --> 00:05:46.360 You've done a fellowship. 87 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:56.840 So I said, if I can give myself three years to do my own personal fellowship that I can 88 00:05:56.840 --> 00:06:04.680 focus on building my career on the business side of health here and do self-learning for 89 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:10.400 three years, it's really not hard for me to, it's really not hard to make $70,000 a year. 90 00:06:10.400 --> 00:06:13.760 It's really not hard to make a fellowship salary. 91 00:06:14.760 --> 00:06:20.040 You could do that as a consultant in three months. 92 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:28.080 And so I just framed it in that way and figured out how to change my brain around that so 93 00:06:28.080 --> 00:06:35.600 that I could actually not just be depressed about the $300,000 that I invested in my medical 94 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:40.920 training and not being a board certified doctor and not doing it like all these things. 95 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:45.320 And I stuck around long enough to get my medical license, which actually helped me feel 96 00:06:45.320 --> 00:06:46.680 a little bit better about it. 97 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:54.440 But the sun cost is I think something that especially doctors struggle with and struggle 98 00:06:54.440 --> 00:07:01.960 just like figuring out how to break out of their handcuffs and maybe go down to your career 99 00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:04.280 path or try something new. 100 00:07:04.280 --> 00:07:11.840 And so that's really where all the talks that I've been doing around sun cost and right 101 00:07:11.840 --> 00:07:18.120 now writing a book on actually my experience and how I navigated the sun cost fallacy. 102 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:19.600 The book's called Unsinking. 103 00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.520 I don't know when it'll come out but I'm working on it. 104 00:07:24.520 --> 00:07:28.560 So yeah, that's really my experience with the sun cost and I'm happy to dive in more 105 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:33.960 into more practical things about how you can break out of it. 106 00:07:33.960 --> 00:07:39.240 And that's amazing to me and you know, the thing that stuck out to me as you mentioned 107 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.520 that your two years in and the listeners of this show know that, you know, a friendly 108 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:46.520 medicine primary care to three of residency and so my first thought was, man, just so close 109 00:07:46.520 --> 00:07:48.440 to the finish line, right? 110 00:07:48.440 --> 00:07:53.640 Undergrad for yours in medical school just one more year and you mentioned how multiple 111 00:07:53.640 --> 00:07:56.960 checkpoints where you thought about, hey, let's just hang it up. 112 00:07:56.960 --> 00:07:57.960 Let's hang up the cleats. 113 00:07:57.960 --> 00:08:00.960 But you're like, now I'm going to push through one, two, three. 114 00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:04.480 So I want to, I want to time jump back to try to dig a little bit deeper, understand 115 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.320 your thought process. 116 00:08:06.320 --> 00:08:07.320 Where did you grow up? 117 00:08:07.320 --> 00:08:10.680 I grew up in Metro Detroit just outside. 118 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:13.880 It's a suburb called Dearborn where all of the Arabs are. 119 00:08:13.880 --> 00:08:20.640 I'm sure a lot of any Arabs listening here, everybody knows Dearborn. 120 00:08:20.640 --> 00:08:24.000 My, my, my favorite, my, just the entire world. 121 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.520 If I could have just one food every single day to be chicken sure, and I, and I heard 122 00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:28.440 Dearborn Michigan has some incredible sure mess. 123 00:08:28.440 --> 00:08:32.360 You know, as well as the buckle of a, we do, we do, we do have the good stuff. 124 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:37.160 I do miss it where you're, was anybody in your family, like your parents, anybody 125 00:08:37.160 --> 00:08:38.160 physicians? 126 00:08:38.160 --> 00:08:39.160 Nope. 127 00:08:39.160 --> 00:08:40.160 First doctor. 128 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:44.760 Bronco is a dentist, but I'm the first doctor in the family. 129 00:08:44.760 --> 00:08:47.640 So, so what was the inspiration to even pursue medicine in the first

place? 130 00:08:47.640 --> 00:08:48.640 Yeah, great question. 131 00:08:48.640 --> 00:08:55.160 I mean, I think a lot of us with ethnic backgrounds can relate to this, but, you know, I think 132 00:08:55.160 --> 00:09:01.480 growing up for our generation, you know, our parents and our community viewed the ultimate 133 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.320 success as being a physician. 134 00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:09.320 And you know, you probably, you know, a lot of us have grew up around other, maybe we 135 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:13.320 knew as a doctor or a dentist or somebody in this healthcare profession that did really 136 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.520 well and lived a good life. 137 00:09:15.520 --> 00:09:23.640 And I think that, you know, for me growing up, like, we have, my family had a lot of struggles 138 00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:27.160 financially. 139 00:09:27.160 --> 00:09:32.760 And so I always felt like I carried a little bit of this burden of like I have to make 140 00:09:32.760 --> 00:09:38.840 sure that I position myself and my family for success. 141 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:43.240 And it wasn't like a lot of people have had that moment where they were like, you know, 142 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.440 they knew their life's calling was to be a doctor. 143 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:48.840 I don't think I particularly had that. 144 00:09:48.920 --> 00:09:54.840 I think I just knew I really wanted to be successful in whatever I did. 145 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:57.480 And I don't know, maybe just most doctors won't admit this. 146 00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:01.400 I think maybe there are other people that are doctors that feel this way too, but most 147 00:10:01.400 --> 00:10:04.520 probably, it's not the virtuous thing to say. 148 00:10:04.520 --> 00:10:09.080 But that's my truth. 149 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:18.000 And so, so yeah, you know, I just, I think when I got to high school, I was playing sports 150 00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:22.240 and I got injured and then I visited a doctor and I actually liked it. 151 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:29.000 I was like, I wanted to know about why I tore my MCL and why I tore my meniscus and 152 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.280 like, what was that all about and how do I recover? 153 00:10:31.280 --> 00:10:36.640 And I went through a recovery process that sparked my interest. 154 00:10:36.640 --> 00:10:42.240 And then later into college, I met a mentor and I was just, I was just curious. 155 00:10:42.400 --> 00:10:44.800 I did always like science too. 156 00:10:44.800 --> 00:10:52.240 I was a geek for physiology and I did really well in those classes and I really enjoyed them. 157 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:58.080 I liked understanding why things happened in your body, like, so physiology and actually organic 158 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:02.480 chemistry. I like super geeked out about that and did really well. 159 00:11:02.480 --> 00:11:03.280 That's weird. 160 00:11:03.280 --> 00:11:04.240 Yeah, really weird. 161 00:11:05.200 -->

00:11:12.800 There was the only class that I actually probably did well in, but actually I'm in the minority 162 00:11:12.800 --> 00:11:14.880 here at Darsch, also nerds out in chemistry as well. 163 00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:20.640 Yeah, so I just, I liked that part of things. 164 00:11:20.640 --> 00:11:25.760 So I, you know, it wasn't all like just, I was doing it because I wanted to be successful 165 00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:29.920 part of it was I really genuinely enjoyed certain parts of medicine. 166 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:37.120 But I think when I got to like my clinical years in medical school, that was when I really 167 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:39.840 was like, I don't actually think this is for me. 168 00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:45.520 And especially when I started meeting doctors that were burnt out and we did those, 169 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:54.960 like, the two preceptorships and I quickly realized I don't think I'm in the group of doctors 170 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:59.520 that's going to be super fulfilled because what I noticed is the doctors that were really happy 171 00:11:59.520 --> 00:12:01.600 in their practices is probably a minority now. 172 00:12:02.640 --> 00:12:06.240 The doctors that are really happy, like super love medicine, right? 173 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.000 Like they geek out over every study. 174 00:12:08.640 --> 00:12:10.480 They're excited about it. 175 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.760 You, we've all had that maybe attending that we did rounds with. 176 00:12:13.760 --> 00:12:17.520 That was just such a good teacher and you could tell like, this stuff lit them up. 177 00:12:19.040 --> 00:12:22.800 And I realized very early on, I was like, oh shit, this is not me at all. 178 00:12:24.400 --> 00:12:28.880 Like for me, I was like geeking out about, you know, how to run a business. 179 00:12:28.880 --> 00:12:32.720 I was always, I ran a business all throughout, half through medical school and then 180 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:36.400 all through residency. And like I loved that side of things. 181 00:12:36.400 --> 00:12:37.920 Like that's what I geeked out about. 182 00:12:37.920 --> 00:12:40.960 And so I knew there was something like disconnected there. 183 00:12:42.560 --> 00:12:46.080 I just figured like it would always get, I just always figured it would get better at some point. 184 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:52.160 Again, you mentioned certain checkpoints that you had that you wanted to keep pushing through 185 00:12:52.160 --> 00:12:53.600 until you made that final decision. 186 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:56.480 Was it at the end of your second year or was it somewhere in the middle? 187 00:12:57.040 --> 00:12:59.440 It was a little bit after my second year. 188 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.920 It was like three months into, while like three or four months into my second year. 189 00:13:03.920 --> 00:13:10.880 But the details behind that are that basically, I didn't get full credit for my first year. 190 00:13:10.880 --> 00:13:14.320 And I needed to do, basically wasn't meeting my graduation requirements. 191 00:13:14.880 --> 00:13:20.080 And so, you know, I had a meeting with my program director and they're like, hey, we can't graduate 192 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:23.760 you. You're going to have to do another year of residence. You're going to have to do an extra year. 193 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:27.680 And at that point, I was like, okay, well, now I have a year and a half left. 194 00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:36.480 That sounds terrible. And I think I just, I was just like, I'm, I think I'm ready to hang it up. 195 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:42.320 And you know, I think it would have been great to finish, but it wasn't like that important to me 196 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.880 because I knew that I didn't. And actually, to be honest, I really think it's been a blessing in 197 00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:56.400 disguise because had I finished, I would have been very tempted to just take a job as a full-time 198 00:13:56.400 --> 00:14:01.040 family medicine doctor, because you know, like there's, there's good offers out there. 199 00:14:01.040 --> 00:14:07.200 Like in some places, they're making 300K, which I wasn't making my first year out of, out of training. 200 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:14.320 You know, I was barely paying my rent for that first year. So, so it's actually been a blessing in 201 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:19.920 disguise, but, but yeah. So, you know, there was some other circumstances that played into that, 202 00:14:19.920 --> 00:14:26.000 but of course, you know, I think it was always in, it worked out really well for me, I guess I would say. 203 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:32.400 What was the conversation like when you ultimately told your family, you're, I know you have a 204 00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:37.760 younger brother who's actually down this path now. And, you know, again, you mentioned us folks, 205 00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:41.680 you know, kind of in the South Asian Middle Eastern community. You mentioned your doctor, 206 00:14:41.680 --> 00:14:46.800 really, if anybody who's in the Brown community kind of, if you come here as an immigrant, 207 00:14:46.800 --> 00:14:49.680 first generation, there's three professions, right, that you can be a physician and engineer 208 00:14:49.680 --> 00:14:55.040 and lawyer, really, that's really all that counts. It's getting a little bit better, but I'm curious to 209 00:14:56.560 --> 00:15:01.760 prior to, you know, that final point, did you talk to your parents about it, your brother about it, 210 00:15:01.760 --> 00:15:07.840 somebody, your friends, and then when you finally decided this is it, what was it like, what was that 211 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:12.160 feedback like? I think that, well, they always knew, like, they always knew, I was like, I'd say it 212 00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:16.800 all the time, I'd tell my friends, I'm like, look, guys, I'm going to graduate and I'm never practicing 213 00:15:16.800 -->

00:15:23.200 medicine again. Like, I'm so, I'm like, I just knew I wanted to go in a different direction. Like, 214 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.520 I've seen, I think I might have been seeing it in medical school too. I think so everybody around 215 00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:34.800 me sort of knew, like it was no surprise to anybody that really knew me. But my parents, this is 216 00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:41.040 funny. I actually didn't tell them for like six months after because I didn't want to stress anybody 217 00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:46.080 out too, especially as I was still figuring it out. So like those first six months after I left 218 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:52.880 residency, like I was like really in that space of like I saved up a little bit of money and I could 219 00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:58.080 pay my rent for like another six months and I was starting a business and making, you know, trying 220 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:04.160 to make that work. And then the podcast made a little bit of money. And so I was just like, I'm not 221 00:16:04.160 --> 00:16:09.040 going to tell anybody right now. Like this is, this is, I've given this to myself. So I got my 222 00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:12.800 shit together because I don't want to stress my family out. I don't want them to think I've lost, 223 00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:19.920 completely lost it. So until like it was about six months in that I really, that I kind of gained 224 00:16:19.920 --> 00:16:25.920 a little bit of footing. And at that point, I was like, I went, you know, to my parents and they 225 00:16:25.920 --> 00:16:30.160 were actually super supportive. Like I think they just trusted me at that point. Like they know, 226 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:34.560 like I've got my shit together. I'm going to figure it out. And I don't think they were too worried. 227 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:39.520 How did your co-residents take it? Because, you know, one of the topics we always talk about, 228 00:16:39.520 --> 00:16:43.920 Altman Shani, you know, with other guests, what it comes to burnout is residents have a tough time 229 00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:47.680 taking off, right? And for the listeners that don't know in family medicine, right? It's not just 230 00:16:47.680 --> 00:16:52.000 clinic. There's also hospital rotations, which can be teen based, right? And especially in family 231 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.000 medicine, you might have like a clinic day where your co-residents might cover, you know, what was 232 00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:00.240 the thought in your head? Like, did they know from the beginning? Was that something that you were 233 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:05.200 struggling with in terms of telling your co-residents that, hey, they may be quote unquote one man down? 234 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.960 Yeah, yeah, that was hard. That was, of course, that was probably one of the hardest parts of it, 235 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:13.440 of course, because like, you know, I was super close with my co-residents, especially like a small, 236 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:20.080 like, you know, you know, you got your like little click. So that was, that was obviously very hard. 237 00:17:20.080 --> 00:17:25.440 It wasn't, I don't think it was too disruptive to the workflows, because I think we just had 238 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:28.960 enough coverage. Maybe for the clinic a little bit disruptive, but not, I don't think it was 239 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:33.840 anything extraordinary. I think they all just knew like where my head was at and they wanted me to be 240 00:17:33.840 --> 00:17:40.480 happy. And, you know, I'm still in touch with a lot of them. And yeah, yeah, it wasn't too disruptive. 241 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.800 I know in some programs, it can be because like, you lose one person, your call schedules all 242 00:17:44.800 --> 00:17:50.000 screwed up, and then you got to pick up an extra day call. But I don't, for our clinic, I don't think 243 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:55.040 that was really the case. Yeah, for sure. That's great. I want to go back to some cost fallacy, 244 00:17:55.040 --> 00:18:00.400 you know, you mentioned a word in there saying reframe. And I think reframing is one of the things 245 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:05.520 you need to have a great life, right? Just a great perspective on life. Knowing that you had a 246 00:18:05.520 --> 00:18:12.560 business throughout medical school residency, how did you, right, like, how did you know that 247 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:16.640 everything was kind of going to work out in your head, right? Was there ever a time where you said, 248 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:22.160 okay, thank God I have this license to quote unquote fall back on, or was the plan always, 249 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:27.360 you know what, this I'm not going to do medicine because I still have, you know, 50, 70 years, 250 00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:32.240 80 years of my life. And I'd rather live on my terms. Yeah. Well, that's a great question. Well, 251 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.720 yeah, actually having a license was super helpful because at like, I think six, after six months, 252 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:41.440 I was like, all right, I really got a, I really got to pick things up. I don't want to just be 253 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:47.360 scraping by at this point, trying to build a business. And so I went and picked up. So I actually 254 00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:55.040 got my license. I moved back to Michigan because it was just I, I, I use a practice owner and I was 255 00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:59.760 like, I went in there and started working in a, in a private practice doing primary care and 256 00:18:59.760 --> 00:19:06.560 urgent care. So, you know, did, did, you know, it was making good money doing that. And then I did 257 00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:10.880 that two or three days a week was able to, you know, more than paying my bills. And also the, 258 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.520 those other three or four days a week, I was

full time trying to build the business. 259 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:21.840 And at the time, it was, it was a media company, healthcare media company. And we were doing 260 00:19:21.840 --> 00:19:27.040 productions with biotech and biopharma companies. And then, and then as that progressed, got into 261 00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:31.440 consulting with, with startups that I'd actually get connected with through the podcast. 262 00:19:33.600 --> 00:19:38.960 So, so yeah, that did, that did significantly help. I don't do that anymore. I don't practice it 263 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:45.040 all anymore or do urgent care. But in that small timeframe, it was actually really nice to know that 264 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:51.520 I do have this license that I can fall back on. And I'm fully confident like even in my clinical 265 00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:57.760 skills, I got really great training. I, you know, I feel, I felt very confident like to go in and 266 00:19:57.760 --> 00:20:02.160 practice and, you know, just do the run of the mill primary care stuff and urgent care stuff that, 267 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:08.320 that, you know, we were trained in. But, you know, obviously there's limitations to that if you, 268 00:20:08.320 --> 00:20:14.720 really, if, if I wanted to really practice medicine, then I'd go back and go do another year, 269 00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:19.200 I probably have to do another two years to get that board certification to go in as a second year. 270 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:23.840 But I don't, you know, I don't knock on the wet. I don't anticipate that. I will have to do that. 271 00:20:25.120 --> 00:20:30.320 Yeah, for sure. You know, you, you talk about consulting. You're very business oriented. 272 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:35.600 One of the things that I've heard you also talk about is how doctors kind of get pigeonholed 273 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:40.960 into only practicing medicine, right? And talking a lot about taboo money, safety, 274 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:45.280 what job satisfaction or just having a job. And one of those other things is as a doctor, 275 00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:50.800 it's okay to not necessarily practice medicine. Tell us a little bit more about your perspective on 276 00:20:50.800 --> 00:20:56.720 doctors doing more than just being a doctor. Yeah, well, I mean, I think a whole new world opened up to 277 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:04.720 me as I got into the consulting and health tech side of things. And I, you know, really my first 278 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:11.280 realization was my first advisory role where I worked with her. I was helping a pretty large tech 279 00:21:11.280 --> 00:21:17.280 company get into the healthcare vertical. And they were trying to figure out, they were trying 280 00:21:17.280 --> 00:21:21.520 to sell to primary care practices. And I, you know, I was just trying to help in the beginning. 281 00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:28.080 And, you know, I went over all their marketing material. I made a bunch of notes and sent it back 282 00:21:28.080 --> 00:21:32.480 to them. And to them, look, I don't think this is the right way to sell them to practices to do this. 283 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:36.640 You have to do this, this and this. And also, I don't think this integration is going to work well 284 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:42.400 in the workflow of doctors because for a number of reasons. And I sent that all over. And that was 285 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:48.560 where I realized, wow, I can't believe like, this is a company. This is a billion dollar company 286 00:21:48.560 --> 00:21:54.720 that doesn't even know what is, they don't know what they don't know. And I was trying to figure out 287 00:21:54.720 --> 00:22:00.960 how do I communicate this? How do I show my value? How do I propose my value? And that led me down 288 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:07.840 this whole rabbit hole of like figuring out how to start a consultancy and actually show my value 289 00:22:07.840 --> 00:22:13.440 to these companies in a way that made sense for them. And that was the start of starting beyond 290 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:19.760 medicine group, which started as my consulting company, where I would basically, you know, 291 00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:26.640 work with health tech companies, provide advisor in consulting and sell it as a package bake, 292 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:32.320 basically. And so I think a lot of doctors like to answer your question, a lot of doctors, 293 00:22:32.320 --> 00:22:39.040 all doctors have us, you know, very specific knowledge in their space. So as PMNR doctors, 294 00:22:39.760 --> 00:22:47.760 you obviously understand the rehab, the rehab space extremely well. And you understand the workflows 295 00:22:47.760 --> 00:22:53.120 of PMNR doctors, you understand how if a health tech company were to come and try to create a 296 00:22:53.120 --> 00:23:02.560 solution for patients that need rehab, you would understand super intuitively things that they 297 00:23:02.560 --> 00:23:09.920 can't even grasp at all. And how do you put a price on that? If it takes you 30 seconds to answer 298 00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.880 a question, how do you put a price on that? This is knowledge you've gathered over years and years 299 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:21.840 of experience. You know, there's, there's, how do you monetize that, right? Like that was the 300 00:23:21.840 --> 00:23:26.320 piece I was trying to figure out. And I think that's the hard part because it's clinicians and especially 301 00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:31.360 as doctors, we're trained not to think about that side of things. We were always told like just focus 302 00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:36.320 on the medicine, focus on the clinical stuff. Don't think about the business, don't think about 303 00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:42.480 how to sell, don't think about how to market yourself. But you really cannot reap the benefits 304 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:47.760 of your clinical skills in a consulting or an advisory

capacity if you don't know how to do those 305 00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:53.360 things. And that's what I started doing and teaching and like really building around with the 306 00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:57.920 with the BMG group. When did the podcast start? You said you have a lot of the connections you made, 307 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:02.240 a lot of the opportunities that were open up to you were through the podcast. Did you start that before 308 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:09.200 or was it after the group? No, so I started the podcast in like 2017 2018, beginning of 2018. 309 00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:16.320 So it was pretty early. I think one of the other podcasters was like Frank Kusomano's podcast, 310 00:24:16.320 --> 00:24:21.440 surviving medicine. And I was on his show and then right after that I started mine. So it was 311 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.080 fairly early. I think my first few guests didn't even know what a podcast was at the time. 312 00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:32.640 What was the impetus behind that? Well, I think it was because I was doing the whole Instagram thing. 313 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:40.800 So I started that in like 2014. I was like in my second year of residency 2015. 314 00:24:40.800 --> 00:24:46.960 And I was like one of like very few doctors at the time doing that. It was like maybe like five or 315 00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:52.640 ten dogs. Like there wasn't a lot. And so like I when you use the hashtags at the time, you could 316 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.800 get in front of a lot of pre-med and med students. And so I started doing that and my page blew up 317 00:24:56.800 --> 00:25:02.560 fairly quickly. I think I was, you know, grew to like 10,000 and then like 15,000 at my peak. 318 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:08.400 And when I was doing that, I was connected with all these influencer dogs and like, you know, 319 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:14.080 people that is just such a weird thing. I don't do it anymore. I took a store influencer was a thing. 320 00:25:14.080 --> 00:25:22.880 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I had a realization at one point because I was doing 321 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:28.720 golden lectures, studying for a step two. And I was doing it in my commutes. And I was like, 322 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:37.840 this is really great. And then at the time I was, I just got in a new car. And I realized that 323 00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:42.480 when I plug my phone into my car, there's a dashboard that come up and all the, all the apps would 324 00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:48.080 come up on there. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. And I realized, oh, I have an app called 325 00:25:48.080 --> 00:25:53.280 podcast. What the heck is that? So I click on it and I'm like, oh, I can listen to podcasts and 326 00:25:53.280 --> 00:25:59.280 while I'm driving, this is great. How is, no, how do we not know about this? And then I just like, 327 00:25:59.280 --> 00:26:03.680 I think it all clicked for me at one point, like size, some realization. I'm like, oh crap. 328 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:09.360 When like five years, 10 years down the road, when everybody's got like a, you know, a newer car 329 00:26:09.360 --> 00:26:13.920 that integrates with your phone and puts that dashboard there, it's going to make streaming while 330 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.600 you're driving so much easier. And everybody's going to do this because everybody's stuck in traffic. 331 00:26:18.560 --> 00:26:21.840 So I was like, all right, I got to start a podcast because I think this is the future. 332 00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:30.640 And, and, you know, sure enough, I think it is the future. And so the other thing is that I was 333 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:37.600 connected with all these big docked famous doctors on Instagram. So would instead, everybody that 334 00:26:37.600 --> 00:26:44.160 I had on was DMed. So hey, want to do a podcast? Let's do it. And send him a, I think I started 335 00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:49.040 doing it with Skype actually in the beginning. So I sent him a Skype link and then we'd record. 336 00:26:49.040 --> 00:26:56.800 And then I just like, I built a website and figured out the whole RSS feed and started posting it. 337 00:26:56.800 --> 00:27:01.200 And like, we would make them content. So like, I'm sure you guys figured out the strategy, 338 00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.760 but like when you bring on somebody with a lot of followers and you make them content, 339 00:27:05.760 --> 00:27:12.240 and then they share it, you start getting their audience. And so we ended up growing super fast. 340 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:18.240 At one point, we were a top 50 podcast. And we're getting like maybe 10, 15,000 monthly downloads 341 00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:24.960 in the beginning. And that was like, what the hell? How did this happen? Which was really cool. 342 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:29.600 We're going to come back to this about developing site projects, social media content creation, 343 00:27:29.600 --> 00:27:33.600 that kind of stuff, just because you've done an exceptional job. And, and we didn't finish 344 00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:37.440 the previous conversation offline. So, but, but I want to stay on something you said, right? 345 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:42.320 You kind of alluded to the fact that these startups, the, the business of medicine, you know, 346 00:27:42.320 --> 00:27:45.680 we often talk about how the business of medicine dictates the practice of medicine, 347 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:51.040 which more often than not is a problem, right? Because that's not really why most physicians 348 00:27:51.040 --> 00:27:55.200 went into it. Some will go in for the money, but most all, especially not the ones with $300,000 349 00:27:55.520 --> 00:28:03.360 of debt, not me, not this guy. And, you know, I think I've been lucky that many of my mentors, 350 00:28:03.360 --> 00:28:08.480 especially early on in medical school, even before when I was an undergrad and I was shadowing, 351

00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:13.120 they, they discussed the business of medicine with me, how you can actually do it the right way. 352 00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:18.560 And they stress the importance of being a good businessman and also being a good healthcare 353 00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:22.240 practitioner and then actually merging them. And that's the only way that it's sustainable 354 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:27.120 long-term. And so I always had that in the back of my mind. And then even though I went to 355 00:28:27.120 --> 00:28:32.240 residency and I didn't have a lot of mentors and residency who talked about that, I knew because 356 00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:37.680 that seed was planted early on. Now, at the risk of playing Monday morning, quarter back here, 357 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.840 do you think that if you had most of more of those conversations during your training, 358 00:28:41.840 --> 00:28:46.080 that things would have ended up differently? I don't think so, no, I think because we did, 359 00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:52.160 you know, here and there we would get some conversations on finance and, you know, 360 00:28:52.320 --> 00:28:57.920 how to invest your money at a later stage. But I don't think that, I think that even if it was 361 00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:03.680 explained to me, I just knew that where my passions line, it was not on the clinical side of things. 362 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:08.160 I don't think there's anything that was going to change that for me personally. I think for others, 363 00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:19.520 it might help. But I think the business side, I think it's like a, I think there's a certain, 364 00:29:19.520 --> 00:29:25.840 I don't want to say brainwashing because it's a strong word, but there's a certain culture 365 00:29:25.840 --> 00:29:33.440 that we're taught that is, like, we're not supposed to learn this other stuff and it's frowned upon 366 00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:38.560 almost. Like, if you're, you know, think about it, think about it like this, if you are, if we 367 00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:46.400 were all going into private practice, it would be much more less frowned upon and much more 368 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:51.520 talked about of how to run a successful practice. And you see this with other healthcare professionals, 369 00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:58.160 like natural pathic doctors or even chiropractors. And I'm not like promoting any of them, but they 370 00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:03.440 all, like, they're, they're a bit super business savvy. They know how to do the socials. They know how 371 00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:09.680 to run a, a lean practice. They know how to do all those things. But we're like, we're kept a little 372 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:19.040 bit in the, in the, in the gray area dark because, you know, they don't, the idea is not for us to 373 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:24.560 go into private practice. It's to take a job with, with a hospital or clinic and, you know, 374 00:30:25.280 --> 00:30:30.160 do that sort of thing. And there's some that do go into the private practice sector. And I think 375 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:34.960 they end up having to figure it out the hard way. Well, now it's impossible because most big 376 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:39.600 organizations, healthcare systems, hospitals are buying up most of the practices in today. And so 377 00:30:39.600 --> 00:30:43.440 even when I was coming out, I think most of my attendings say, well, you're going to have a 378 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.960 difficult time finding a group and stuff just because the, the scope of healthcare has, has changed 379 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.880 drastically. You know, I think about one of your recent conversations with Daniel Paul. And 380 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.800 and I think he mentioned that if you don't learn a mastery on business, somebody else will. And 381 00:30:56.800 --> 00:31:01.360 you know, we're referring to, you know, MBAs and admin folks who really have no clinical sense 382 00:31:01.360 --> 00:31:06.640 and are dictating how we're supposed to practice. And it's so incredibly frustrating. You know, 383 00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:13.120 it leads to just early burnout, right? Things that shouldn't be happening for physicians, you know, 384 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:18.400 in their 20s, 30s. A lot of things that you've talked about on your show and with some of your guests. 385 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:25.760 So let's come back to the podcast, right? As promised, you mentioned, created a lot of opportunities 386 00:31:25.760 --> 00:31:30.880 for you. You got the guest. You disclosed how, you know, earlier on, it was easier to just kind of 387 00:31:30.880 --> 00:31:37.680 access to the advent of social media. How are, now, you're, you're generating revenue from that as 388 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.600 well, right? You create a lot of awesome content. Is that true? And in the beginning stages, 389 00:31:41.600 --> 00:31:46.560 yeah, we did a little bit. Yeah. And so what about now? Is that still producing revenue 390 00:31:46.560 --> 00:31:52.000 for you at this point or is this kind of just like a? Oh, yeah, we do. But in a different way now, 391 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:59.200 so it's more through sponsors and through, and through branded episodes. So we, it's just a 392 00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.880 different monetization structure now. But, but basically just a different way to do the episodes. 393 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:12.400 So, you know, there are plenty of ways to think about how to do it. So I'll use, I'll use a friend's 394 00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:18.720 example. So I don't know if you guys know on the back table podcast or air fritz. But he has, 395 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:25.200 he has a device company sponsor his episodes. And I don't want to disclose any information, 396 00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:32.480 but the way we have a very specific audience, right? And a high, and a high income, high value 397 00:32:32.480 -->

00:32:41.040 audience. The, the, the CPMs and like, just like whatever $50 per thousand listeners are like, 398 00:32:41.040 --> 00:32:46.880 like, I don't think that applies to us because when you have a very specific valuable audience, 399 00:32:48.080 --> 00:32:54.960 you can, you can monetize that in a different way. And I think you can, can put it out there and 400 00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:00.640 ask for your price. And you know, that's what I do. And I think that's what some other successful 401 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:06.320 podcasts do. But I, you know, the podcast for me, like, my intention was not really to monetize it 402 00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:12.400 is just to provide value. And, and, and really the, the main benefit of it is obviously the 403 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:18.240 networking that comes from it. You meet great people. You get opportunities. You'd never get, 404 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:24.400 you know, like the networks that in the relationships I built through the podcast start with 405 00:33:24.400 --> 00:33:30.400 a hundred X anything we've ever made, you know, monetarily. No, I couldn't agree more. I think, 406 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:34.400 you know, I, I feel the same exact way. And I know it darshtestable, but we've been doing this 407 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:39.520 for a little over two years now. And I think just meeting the people who've inspired us, right? We've 408 00:33:39.520 --> 00:33:44.800 talked a lot about how, again, brainwash is a strong word. And just the culture of medicine, 409 00:33:44.800 --> 00:33:50.000 it's so archaic in so many things that we do. And we've been so fortunate, again, just through 410 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:55.040 social media or just cold email or, or whatever it might be that somebody's come on and shared how 411 00:33:55.040 --> 00:33:58.960 they're doing a better way, right? Hence the name of the show. But I think this is so important 412 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:04.080 talk about because the, the new age physician, right? Like our generation millennials, the next 413 00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:08.240 generation, they realized that they've grown up in social media. They've grown up in the podcast 414 00:34:08.240 --> 00:34:11.840 ic world, even though I think you're referring to Apple play or Android Auto when the first time 415 00:34:11.840 --> 00:34:19.440 you saw it, right? To them, this is just intuitive. And they recognize that, hey, doctoring, quote-unquote, 416 00:34:19.520 --> 00:34:24.800 you know, or health care isn't just in the, you know, in the vicinity of the clinic, right? It 417 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.800 continues happening education on social media, education through, through other platforms and 418 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:35.040 that kind of stuff. And so, but the problem becomes there's an opportunity cost, right? It takes time, 419 00:34:35.040 --> 00:34:39.520 right? It's time from your family, time from going to the gym, time for other things that might, 420 00:34:39.520 --> 00:34:44.240 you might have your warning. And there has to be a purpose behind it. And so this is also a 421 00:34:44.720 --> 00:34:48.800 business. And that's why I think it was so important to kind of touch on it. But maybe they can 422 00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:52.080 reach out to you for, for maybe a future course or something and then get that information. 423 00:34:52.720 --> 00:34:57.840 Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to help. And we have the shameless plug here beyond medicine group, 424 00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:03.520 which is our, you know, our community where that's how it's done slack. And, you know, we share all 425 00:35:03.520 --> 00:35:09.120 the resources in there. And, you know, a lot of the doctors that are in this group are doctors 426 00:35:09.120 --> 00:35:14.160 that either work in health tech or, you know, do consulting or advising. So we've built a really 427 00:35:14.160 --> 00:35:20.080 niche community of others that are already sort of in this space. Awesome. So let's shift gears a 428 00:35:20.080 --> 00:35:26.400 little bit, right? Let's, let's look towards the future. I once heard you say something to the 429 00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:31.360 effect that, you know, we're not going to fix this healthcare system. We can only build a new one. 430 00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:36.880 And I've been thinking about that a lot, Remy, because again, the name of the show is medicine 431 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:40.240 redefined. And I think when, you know, we thought a lot about this and maybe we should have 432 00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:43.520 thought more, it's like, hey, maybe we can change things. Maybe we can think makes things better. 433 00:35:43.520 --> 00:35:50.240 I, or maybe we can at least contribute to that, right? And my question for you is, is it, 434 00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:56.640 is there nothing that we can salvage? Like, you know, like when we're looking for a better system, 435 00:35:56.640 --> 00:36:00.320 we've talked a couple of things that you're doing that we're doing. A lot of like-minded folks are 436 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:05.840 doing. What is it about the current system that you still think is worth keeping that you like? 437 00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:15.040 The people. Everything else needs to go. But on a, like for real though, I think that it would, 438 00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:19.360 I don't think we can solve all of the problems in healthcare. I think we can, you know, 439 00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:27.120 you know, make small significant changes. But the incentives are so misaligned in healthcare that 440 00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:34.640 in the traditional system, I really don't see it being possible to create real change, 441 00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:38.720 right? Because the incentives for the patients, the incentives for the payers, and the incentives 442 00:36:38.720 --> 00:36:45.680 for the providers and doctors are all completely misaligned. In America, in the American healthcare 443 00:36:45.680 -->

00:36:53.680 system, you get paid for doing things, right? Not to prevent things. And that in itself is a conflict 444 00:36:53.680 --> 00:37:05.680 of interest. And so like in how we provide care and how we incentivize results are just not 445 00:37:05.680 --> 00:37:10.080 where they need to be. And I don't think you could, you can only build layers, you can add technology, 446 00:37:10.080 --> 00:37:14.960 you can make things more efficient, but you're only making them more efficient to the extent that 447 00:37:15.520 --> 00:37:22.880 the foundation is laid, which is incentives. And there are some things that are getting better, 448 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:28.560 like obviously with value-based care now incentives are prioritized a little bit more, 449 00:37:28.560 --> 00:37:36.640 but even that's still like not working great. And there are certain, I mean, I think grassroots 450 00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:41.440 movements like direct primary care, direct specialty cares. I think that's heading in the right 451 00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:52.240 direction. But you know, I don't, technology will obviously be a big contributor to solving 452 00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:55.760 some of these problems. And I think that's, it's definitely going to help. 453 00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:05.440 But you know, when or if a technology that can actually, you know, like not too long ago, 454 00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:10.480 three of the biggest tech giants in the country and the whole world came together to build a healthcare 455 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.840 solution and they failed miserably, you know. And you know, there's a lot of reasons for that. But 456 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:23.920 I think that like, I think I think if big enough players come in to really disrupt things, 457 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:30.000 it's possible. But I don't think what the current way things are, it'll be, it'll be an easy task. 458 00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:35.040 Yeah, where do you, where do you truly see medicine going? You know, maybe in the next 10, 459 00:38:35.040 --> 00:38:39.760 20 years, but also in the future. I mean, you were right about podcasts. You've got the pulse on tech, 460 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:46.080 NFTs metaverse, you know, Mark Cuban now is trying to change the game with prescription medicine. 461 00:38:47.200 --> 00:38:56.080 What do you exactly see happening? Well, I see a two tiered system possibly coming. 462 00:38:58.560 --> 00:39:04.000 And I think that most physician, I think so what's happening is obviously you have different 463 00:39:04.640 --> 00:39:08.320 types of providers. You have physicians, you have nurse practitioners, you have PAs. 464 00:39:09.120 --> 00:39:13.120 And I think what a lot of physicians are realizing is that they're not getting what they want 465 00:39:13.120 --> 00:39:17.920 in the traditional system. So a lot of them are going to direct care, direct specialty type of 466 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:23.920 practices. You know, for the ones that it

makes sense for, it doesn't make sense for all specialties. 467 00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:29.440 But there's a movement and it's a growing movement year over year in that direction. 468 00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:39.120 And I think the fee for service model, a lot of those models will be man-powered, woman-powered 469 00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:45.040 by nurse practitioners and PAs, especially in primary care. And so I think is going to end up 470 00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:51.520 happening is people that can afford to pay that subscription service or to pay for exceptional 471 00:39:51.520 --> 00:39:58.400 care, pay to see a doctor are going to opt into that, right? Because I think that a lot of people 472 00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:05.120 will still prefer to see a doctor, but not see a doctor over seeing someone that will give them 473 00:40:05.120 --> 00:40:13.680 time. So if you are a doctor and you can give time to someone that is a huge value add and people 474 00:40:13.680 --> 00:40:21.680 want to pay for that. And I think if you can afford it, I think that like our federally qualified 475 00:40:21.680 --> 00:40:27.200 health centers and the hospital clinics will staff mostly nurse practitioners PAs. And 476 00:40:28.080 --> 00:40:33.120 that's the more economic way for them to do things. And I think they're going to go in that direction. 477 00:40:33.120 --> 00:40:41.200 And that's likely where your fee for service and insurance-based healthcare will take place. 478 00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:47.040 That's just a prediction. I don't think it'll be a 100% in that direction, but I think that's one 479 00:40:47.040 --> 00:40:51.040 outcome we might see in like maybe 10 years. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's going to be this 480 00:40:51.040 --> 00:40:56.640 schism where you might even increase that gap more from people who can afford the higher precision 481 00:40:56.640 --> 00:41:02.480 medicine, get the individualized labs, go to the new tech device companies that are coming out for 482 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:05.360 even more of that precision medicine, right? And then you're going to have the people who are 483 00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:10.480 maybe missing out on that, right? And we'll have to go through the current base model that we have. 484 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:15.360 So I definitely see it going that way. And I think it's important to know these things. I mean, 485 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:19.840 when I talk to premed and medical students, their eyes light up, their ears aren't fire when I 486 00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:25.760 talk about this stuff. The path to digital health that had path to industry, a lot of it's your 487 00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:31.120 network and your connections. And I've been preaching that for a while. That's actually why I started 488 00:41:31.120 --> 00:41:36.160 beyond medicine group because I wanted to connect the physicians with the community that I was 489 00:41:36.160 --> 00:41:41.760 already getting connected with, which was the

health tech founders, the investors, the builders of 490 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:48.560 health tech. And so for me, through the podcast and through just being in different groups, 491 00:41:48.560 --> 00:41:52.320 networking, like, I had a goal at one point where I was going to meet five people every day, 492 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.240 like, for like a month. And I did that. And like, I'll just schedule Zoom meetings, 493 00:41:57.040 --> 00:42:03.200 make introductions randomly. Sometimes that would lead to a consulting gig. So I 494 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:09.280 made it a huge point to broaden my network and meet a lot of people. And most physicians you 495 00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:16.640 talk to that do consulting work or advising. They're either in, they're already in that startup 496 00:42:16.640 --> 00:42:21.200 ecosystem. They're either in a geographic location like Silicon Valley where they're just 497 00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:27.200 organically around all of that and their networks just tech people and founders and, you know, 498 00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:34.880 so they just get plugged in. And so like a lot of these Silicon Valley docs, they're already 499 00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:40.640 they're already plugged into the ecosystem. But if you're not in that geographic area, you can, 500 00:42:40.640 --> 00:42:45.760 you can get into networks, you can get into groups. And once you start building that network, 501 00:42:46.240 --> 00:42:51.680 it's a small community. Once someone, once a couple founders know you, like, it kind of spreads. 502 00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:57.840 And that's the cool thing about BMG is that we've brought in founders and investors and 503 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:03.440 connect, starting to connect them with our with our physician leaders. And there's already been 504 00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:08.480 several consulting gigs that took place just through connections that happened in BMG, 505 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:12.880 which is, which is pretty cool. I would definitely save even for met students residents. 506 00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:18.160 Try to try to network with your friends that are in venture, your friends that are in 507 00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:25.840 private equity, startups, if any of them are running startups, healthcare startups, 508 00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:30.640 try to network with that group. There's a few other good groups out there. I think MD plus is a good 509 00:43:30.640 --> 00:43:36.720 one. And health tech nerds is another really good one. Cool. We'll definitely put those in the 510 00:43:36.720 --> 00:43:40.480 show notes, but I can agree more. I mean, I've been telling even my colleagues like, hey, 511 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:44.560 just just get on social media. Even if you don't post, just keep your pulse on what's going on. 512 00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:49.280 Who's who are we following? What's the newest trend? Like, what is happening? It's the only way 513 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.720 that you'll really

be able to discern kind of what you like, what you don't like. And it's funny. 514 00:43:54.720 --> 00:43:58.800 I mean, a lot of pretty meds will be like, how do I how do I network on Instagram? Like, do I just 515 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.880 email? And I'm like, well, emails kind of outdated. I mean, honestly, just DM the person. If you're 516 00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.040 trying to go to that med school and you know a med student from there, that's a that's a simple step. 517 00:44:07.040 --> 00:44:11.040 Did you think, hey, how'd you like the med school is DM them? And I think most physicians, 518 00:44:11.040 --> 00:44:16.080 most students would be more than happy to respond, right? Because we all like to create value. I mean, 519 00:44:16.080 --> 00:44:20.240 it's also a reason why we go into medicine right in the first place. So yeah, I definitely 520 00:44:20.240 --> 00:44:25.760 definitely agree with you on that. Yeah. I want to turn the tables for a second. I want to ask you 521 00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:34.320 personally, how do you feel? How do you feel that social media is helping you and your future endeavors? 522 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:41.760 Because like, I used to I used to do the social media and, you know, the whole, you know, 523 00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:48.000 doctor fluencer thing and document my journey. And there was a lot, you see, there's a lot, 524 00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:54.400 a lot of value from it. I stupidly deleted my account and started over. But actually, actually, 525 00:44:54.400 --> 00:45:00.720 I think I think it was actually a really, really good thing because it allowed me, I think it's hard 526 00:45:00.720 --> 00:45:08.000 to fail in public. And sometimes when you have a social media account, this is, and correct me 527 00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:13.920 from wrong here, but for me, I felt like I had so much pressure to continue what I had already 528 00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:21.680 built and continue being the doctor that I had portrayed myself as, that now I really, I didn't 529 00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:28.560 feel that I wanted to transition publicly. Like, I didn't want to do that in a public way and, 530 00:45:28.640 --> 00:45:34.400 you know, get criticism and of course, criticism's always going to come, but I don't know if 531 00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.720 a pigeon holds you a little bit if you, if you do that. Do you, do you feel any sense of that? 532 00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:43.840 So for me, you know, I created this second year medical school. It's kind of where I started. And 533 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.680 I just wanted to create value and I enjoyed it. But the main reason I also created this social media 534 00:45:47.680 --> 00:45:52.880 was it helped me accountable for what I was preaching. And that was the biggest thing as to why 535 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:57.360 I started it. So a lot of it was personal plus the medicine, right? It was just like my life. 536 00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:02.480 And I always

wanted to pivot it, like to pivot or create a second account. But it was like, 537 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:07.040 it's just too hard. I mean, I just didn't want to start over. And I'm all about being authentic, 538 00:46:07.040 --> 00:46:10.960 right? Like, there's this new app called Beavriol that literally I just saw the SNL skit, 539 00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:16.000 and I'm just laughing my head off on it because I still think it's crazy. But I'm with Gen Z in 540 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.920 terms of being like authentic self, right? And that's like kind of what I pride myself on with 541 00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:26.960 social media. So I mean, for me, it's for like the reason I do it now is just to find like 542 00:46:26.960 --> 00:46:30.560 many people who align with kind of what I say. And I'm a little over the place, right? I don't 543 00:46:30.560 --> 00:46:34.160 think I have a specific super niche, you know, I'll talk about book reviews, I'll talk about 544 00:46:34.160 --> 00:46:38.800 perspective, philosophy, I'll talk a little bit about medicine, nutrition, you know, whatever there 545 00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:44.560 is, whatever I care about. And, you know, I think Instagram, most people, I've hit their cap, 546 00:46:44.560 --> 00:46:49.600 like it's just so saturated now. Like a 200k following on TikTok doesn't really mean anything. 547 00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:55.120 And over on Instagram, like, I'm losing followers day by day. I was the ones that like 8,000 548 00:46:55.120 --> 00:47:00.160 announced that like 7,000, 8,000 years, something, right? So I don't think it's winning game. Like you 549 00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:05.680 said, I don't think it's a future for me. No, they said no. Yeah, exactly. I'm looking at it. I think 550 00:47:05.680 --> 00:47:09.760 I gained three today. I was like, what is robot coming from? Because I was like, no one knew it's 551 00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:16.240 following me. So it's a funny game. I think it's a game you kind of have to play, but you can't get 552 00:47:16.240 --> 00:47:20.720 lost in it, right? But I think again, it's important to keep your pulse on what's going on. But 553 00:47:20.720 --> 00:47:25.200 I don't think it's going to help in any way of my future in terms of how I want to practice or 554 00:47:25.200 --> 00:47:30.000 what I want to practice. That's probably where my mainstream income is going to be. I'm very 555 00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:34.640 interested in consulting as well. So, you know, more of that's going to be the focus. And right now, 556 00:47:34.640 --> 00:47:38.400 it's kind of just showing who I am in my life and trying to meet cool people, you know, like you 557 00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:44.960 and stuff and follow cool people. So yeah, yeah, interesting. How about you, old? Yeah, I'll 558 00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:51.600 let's hear from you too. Well, I don't do nearly as good as you do. So I'm not sure my opinion is 559 00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:56.800 as valid. I think for me, it's a good way to carry information, right? Again, it's been a really 560 00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:03.040 good way to connect with like minor folks and to filter information that you might not have come 561 00:48:03.040 --> 00:48:08.480 across otherwise. And so, you know, I follow a lot of folks in the health and wellness, quote, unquote 562 00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:16.320 industry, a lot of physicians. And I find inspired by them. I am also sometimes handstrong because 563 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:20.960 it does get the better of me. And I find myself mindlessly scrolling. I listen to one of your recent 564 00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:24.240 podcasts run me with, I think, Laurie got her last name. It's case me. 565 00:48:25.120 --> 00:48:30.000 Santa. Yeah. And you guys were talking about this conversation. You know, again, these 566 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.720 superficial interactions. Now, fortunately, nobody is DMing me. And so I'm not having interactions, 567 00:48:34.720 --> 00:48:39.840 but I still find myself being trapped where I'm just, you know, scrolling sometimes. And I've said 568 00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:44.400 this to Darshoff line. I was like, I sometimes I don't even know how I got there. And yeah, 569 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:49.920 but I think more often than not good does come from it. I think in terms of responsibility, 570 00:48:51.200 --> 00:48:57.040 just like this podcast is a way to do our best to communicate good information, right? There's a 571 00:48:57.040 --> 00:49:01.520 lot of bad information out there. And the only way to combat that is to spread good information. 572 00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:09.280 That's one way that you might not get an audience, right? Somebody's not listening to a podcast 573 00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:14.000 because that's especially some of the newer younger generation. I've got young cousins who they 574 00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:18.720 cannot listen to in our podcast. Their intention is bad. It's got to be a 30-second clip. 575 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:24.480 That's challenging for me. And that's why maybe I'm not so good at it. But I don't know. 576 00:49:24.560 --> 00:49:34.000 Interesting. Cool. Yeah, I think that the social media space is obviously important. 577 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:38.000 And I think you definitely need it now, especially if you want to run a business like it's super 578 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:44.480 helpful, more run of practice. I think it's super helpful as well. I think what people, I think 579 00:49:44.480 --> 00:49:49.920 what a lot of, maybe this is an interesting thing for us to talk about or not, but a lot of what I see 580 00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:58.880 from residents or like from med students is you sort of learn what works and you sort of learn 581 00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:04.880 like how to gain attention. And then you keep repeating that over and over again because it works. 582 00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:08.800 Obviously, and then you forget like why are you here? Is this

even the kind of stuff you want to 583 00:50:08.800 --> 00:50:13.120 talk about? Do you even care about talking about this? I fall into that trap. I know for sure. 584 00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:19.040 Now I'm trying to just do more content that I'm just like really, really interested in. I don't 585 00:50:19.040 --> 00:50:25.840 care if it gets like three likes as, as long as I'm just putting out stuff that I can consistently 586 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.840 talk about enthusiastically is really the direction I want to go in. And I think, like, 587 00:50:31.840 --> 00:50:37.120 I love that you do the book reviews and you do things like you're like, you know, you know, 588 00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:42.320 they're not going to get as much engagement, but you enjoy them. And you know, that's the important part. 589 00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:47.040 Which is why I love, I love your new like videos now talking about startups, man. I think there's 590 00:50:47.040 --> 00:50:51.120 so much value that it provides because so many of us just aren't in it, but we want to get in it. 591 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:54.720 And you know, you know, it's not like you have the most aesthetic at times. Sometimes you're just 592 00:50:54.720 --> 00:51:02.400 in your car, but it's like real talk, right? Yeah, I think your last one's real good lighting, 593 00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:10.800 though. Yeah, I just got the new setup now. Yeah, but I like that's what I enjoy listening to. 594 00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:15.280 And you know, I think it also comes down to like with high value people. What do you think 595 00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:18.880 care about listening? And they're going to be the ones to really like promote that, right? 596 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:23.360 In terms of when it comes to high level jobs, high level success, high level networking, 597 00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:28.640 not saying all my listen, all my audience or whatever followers like not high level quote unquote, 598 00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:33.360 but it does matter who you put your content out to, right? Like I'm looking for people who 599 00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:38.560 respect that have the same ideals and they can share value back or connect me to the next level 600 00:51:38.560 --> 00:51:44.880 or collaborate, right? So I think that's also a key. Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny, 601 00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:54.480 because if you look at I'm sorry to hijack your ass. But there's I don't know if you notice this, 602 00:51:54.480 --> 00:52:01.360 but like throughout the pandemic, like it feels like so like the Instagrams doctor, social 603 00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:06.640 media scene got kind of weird. We're like a bunch of people fell off, like including myself, 604 00:52:06.640 --> 00:52:12.240 and then like some people like just stop posting. Some people came back like it's good. 605 00:52:12.240 --> 00:52:18.640 Do you guys feel that way or no? Well, I think just the world got crazy in general, you know, 606 00:52:18.640

--> 00:52:27.040 you had that. You had racial tensions at its highest. And I think now that you mentioned that if 607 00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:33.520 we had less voices, less maybe reasonable voices out there, the ones who had really polarizing 608 00:52:33.520 --> 00:52:36.720 messages just kept getting amplified, right? Just because there were less people out there, 609 00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:41.280 but now they're a bit of shout louder. So it did get to be quite a scary place. Sometimes it's 610 00:52:41.280 --> 00:52:47.440 still a scary place. And if you read the comments section, again, fortunately, I don't have a big 611 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:51.520 following. So nobody comments on my stuff. But sometimes I read the comments on other people's 612 00:52:51.520 --> 00:52:56.720 things. I'm like, holy moly. Like why would you say this? Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting. 613 00:52:57.680 --> 00:53:01.760 Yeah, I mean, if you listen like the VPC deep podcast, or I was the dog MD and Vinay Prasad, 614 00:53:01.760 --> 00:53:05.520 I mean, they're always talking about influencers who like go through their ups and downs, 615 00:53:05.520 --> 00:53:10.480 just like getting haters or being so polarizing and definitely think COVID shifted that. But also 616 00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:15.360 just the rise of TikTok. Like I was at first kind of shocked in terms of like, how do I win this game? 617 00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:19.360 I mean, this is way too short of an attention span for me. And like I'm still not the biggest 618 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:24.480 fan of TikTok. I probably won't use it just because it's just I don't gain anything out of it as 619 00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:28.400 much as I would with Instagram where I can sit with the posts, sit with the real read a caption 620 00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:34.240 and actually absorb, you know, something. Yeah. TikTok is just it's just too quick. Yeah. 621 00:53:34.240 --> 00:53:38.720 Yeah, I think there's obviously like I'm I'm in the same boat as you guys because I think we all 622 00:53:38.720 --> 00:53:45.440 we we enjoy longer form content. And for me, like I could do podcasts every day. I love I like 623 00:53:46.000 --> 00:53:52.720 to actually talk about things that matter. I think at some point we'll do TikTok and and but like 624 00:53:52.720 --> 00:54:00.000 it'll be if it's not something I'm absolutely very much wanting to talk about or it's my team 625 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:05.280 posting on our social medias like clips. I don't think I'm going to do it because for me, 626 00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:11.840 it's not interesting enough like if it's it's about like meaningful conversations really. Yeah. 627 00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:16.080 Right. Exactly. I think that's what the executives are doing and like, you know, the high level 628 00:54:16.080 --> 00:54:20.080 people are doing that too. It's having meaningful conversation. Well, Rummy, we do you have 629 00:54:20.160 --> 00:54:23.440 do you have somewhere to be or you want a couple more couple of minutes? No, no, I'm good. I'm good 630 00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:27.680 if you guys want to keep going. Yeah, man. No, this is exactly what we want here. So, 631 00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:33.280 you know, I you mentioned a lot of great projects, right? The last couple of years have been good. 632 00:54:33.280 --> 00:54:37.280 We've kind of talked about different ways that we should be doing things we should be doing. Maybe, 633 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:43.120 you know, rep up, take talk maybe maybe when you don't rethink our opinions on that. Maybe 634 00:54:43.120 --> 00:54:48.320 that that's going to be a better business opportunity. Who knows? What is it that you're excited 635 00:54:48.400 --> 00:54:52.560 about? Right? We ask you about the future of what you see of medicine. So, I'm not really 636 00:54:52.560 --> 00:54:56.560 interested in that unless that's what you're excited about. In the near future, in the next one 637 00:54:56.560 --> 00:55:00.640 of two years, what gets you stoked that you're like, man, this is going to be the next thing. It could 638 00:55:00.640 --> 00:55:06.000 be personal. It could just be healthcare. It could be really anything. Yeah. I mean, I'm stoked 639 00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:12.720 about a lot of things right now. Like, for number one, it's the startup that I'm currently at, 640 00:55:13.360 --> 00:55:19.200 you know, being a early stage executive on the team. Just, you know, being on the ground floor, 641 00:55:19.200 --> 00:55:25.680 getting to build, you know, we are we're consumers of medical assistance company and we do like, 642 00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:30.880 we work with the population health side of things with payers and then we also work with 643 00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:41.360 with independent practices and really basically create a really amazing front-end experience 644 00:55:41.360 --> 00:55:48.000 for practices, basically just, you know, completely taking over and making an efficient, 645 00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:54.800 making that interaction for patients so much better and providing an extraordinary amount 646 00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:01.200 to our clinics that we're partnered with. And, you know, I'm just super excited about this. So, 647 00:56:01.200 --> 00:56:07.760 right now, I'm in charge of everything, basically, clinical operations and business development 648 00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:14.480 on our team. So, I love being on the ground floor. I love getting to work with our team. 649 00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:21.520 I'm just I'm 100% like right now, just all in on that. And then, of course, beyond medicine 650 00:56:21.520 --> 00:56:29.120 groups like my passion project, my baby, on my goal is to build my goal with beyond medicine 651 00:56:29.120 --> 00:56:37.200 group is to build the absolute bar non-best community for health tech. And that's that be for 652 00:56:37.200 --> 00:56:45.760 physicians, for health tech builders, for investors, you know,

just bar non-best community, 653 00:56:45.760 --> 00:56:51.760 online community out there as my goal with BMG and just bringing value to people. I want to give 654 00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:57.360 back because I've learned a lot in the last two years and I think a lot of our colleagues want 655 00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:03.040 to break into the health tech and start up sphere. Want to use, you know, we all want to be valued 656 00:57:03.040 --> 00:57:08.720 for our intelligence, for our clinical knowledge. I think most doctors want to contribute in that way. 657 00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:15.120 There's just some pieces missing and I'm trying to I'm trying to fill in those pieces. One being 658 00:57:15.120 --> 00:57:20.240 the network, two being the resources and the knowledge base and our community, the best way to do 659 00:57:20.240 --> 00:57:29.040 that is through community in my opinion. And we've got some, you know, top level digital health 660 00:57:29.040 --> 00:57:35.680 CEOs who are physicians in the group, really just a group of like mentors I would look at is like 661 00:57:35.680 --> 00:57:42.320 mentors and then even we have beginners and learners, I would put myself in that category. And you 662 00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:46.960 know, we have people that just want to help each other and that's the thing that's that's what 663 00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:53.360 community is about. A lot of online communities now are, you know, pseudo online communities. 664 00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:57.920 They're just there and you're part of them, but you don't know the person, you don't know 665 00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:03.520 everybody in the group, you don't know your neighbors. Like for me, like I want to build a real 666 00:58:03.520 --> 00:58:09.840 community here. So everybody, I want everybody in the group to know each other. I want our 667 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:15.760 community to the values of the community to be about helping each other to make connections. 668 00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:22.560 It's really ingrained. I'm trying to, you know, make that ingrained in what BMG is. 669 00:58:23.680 --> 00:58:29.280 And I think it's starting to show. I think that even though it's just a slack group, 670 00:58:30.080 --> 00:58:35.760 you click on BMG and you're in BMG, you feel it. You know it's a different experience in there. 671 00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:40.400 And that's the feedback I get from a lot of our members. And to me, that means everything. So 672 00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:46.560 that's what I want to continue doing with BMG, with the podcast, providing value to our, to our 673 00:58:46.560 --> 00:58:54.560 community. And who is BMG open to? It's open to, yes, it's open to, well, you do have to request 674 00:58:54.560 --> 00:59:03.760 an invite, but it's open to all physicians and any health tech founders, any health tech investors, 675 00:59:04.320 --> 00:59:09.200 and builders and health tech are welcome to. We do have a screening process just to make sure 676 00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:14.080 we're bringing in people that are going to contribute in a meaningful way and bring value to 677 00:59:14.080 --> 00:59:19.600 the community. Of course, you guys are always welcome. Your listeners are welcome to join. 678 00:59:20.240 --> 00:59:26.160 And that's, you know, if you beyondmedicinegroup.com, forward slash community is where you can 679 00:59:26.160 --> 00:59:31.360 find the, the form which you'd fill out and you'll get a, you'll get to invite directly from me. 680 00:59:31.360 --> 00:59:35.120 Perfect. I'll put down the show notes as well. But I want to ask you, you're in Austin, Texas. 681 00:59:35.120 --> 00:59:38.480 How has that changed the game for you? I mean, I know a lot of people are coming in, huge tech 682 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:42.880 boom, Peter Tias there, Tim Ferris, just to name some prominent people, but how's that been treated to you? 683 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:48.320 Oh, man, I love it here. I don't want any more people to come because it's getting crowded, but 684 00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:55.280 I mean, me being one of those people that is crowded there, haven't just moved here eight months ago. 685 00:59:56.880 --> 01:00:02.160 But it's great. I think the best part about it is the health tech community. There's like really 686 01:00:02.160 --> 01:00:09.360 good health tech communities or good tech community. Startup community here is insane. I've met a lot 687 01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:14.320 of people, man, and this just reinforces my belief that geographic location actually really, 688 01:00:14.320 --> 01:00:21.440 really matters when it comes to getting the right opportunities. You know, second to that, 689 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:27.680 obviously is online network and online presence and community like that definitely helps. But 690 01:00:27.760 --> 01:00:33.840 I don't think there's anything that matches just being in an ecosystem here that is 691 01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:41.440 thriving with young entrepreneurs, startups. Like, it's just really cool to be around that. 692 01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:48.480 I was, you know, our community is we're always surrounded by physicians, which is amazing because 693 01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:55.600 we can relate to each other and connect. But now my, my, my sphere is like expanding into this 694 01:00:55.600 --> 01:01:00.400 other side of things, which I'm really loving. But you guys should definitely come visit. I would 695 01:01:00.400 --> 01:01:05.120 love to host you guys here anytime. I'll show you around. It's a, it's a really great place. 696 01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:12.240 I was actually going to come for the F1. Oh, really? So F1 is, and yeah, it was like two weeks, 697 01:01:12.240 --> 01:01:16.160 October 21st, but I kind of make it. But me and my wife are actually thinking of coming down 698 01:01:16.160 --> 01:01:20.880 to watch that because Ed Sheeran's also playing. Ed Sheeran, you can't miss that. Come on. 699 01:01:20.960 -->

01:01:28.800 Yeah. Yeah. This isn't. Don't lie. You're coming here for a dog. You're coming here for Ed Sheeran first. 700 01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:37.280 That's very true. That's very true. 100%. But I'll definitely make it out at some point. 701 01:01:38.160 --> 01:01:43.520 Well, Remy, I just want to thank you, man, as we come to a close here. I think, you know, I, 702 01:01:43.520 --> 01:01:47.360 I want to share this with you. You know, when, when Darcy told me that we're bringing you on, 703 01:01:48.240 --> 01:01:51.920 you know, of course, like naturally bringing listeners behind the stage here, you know, 704 01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:56.880 you go, you do a lot of research and lucky to come across your podcast. And so you get a sense of 705 01:01:56.880 --> 01:02:00.800 what the person is, you know, what they're about, what inspires them, what their passions are, 706 01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:04.320 as you mentioned. And I have to say, I've done that with a lot of guests. We've been doing this 707 01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:10.480 for two years. And I don't think I've ever bookmarked anybody's episodes as much as I have for you 708 01:02:10.480 --> 01:02:13.680 so I can go back and listen to them just because of the guests that you've had, the conversations 709 01:02:13.680 --> 01:02:17.760 you've had have really resonated with me. So I want to thank you for everything you're doing. 710 01:02:19.520 --> 01:02:24.000 It's very inspiring. I hope you continue to do it. I'm glad that we've been able to connect. 711 01:02:24.640 --> 01:02:30.000 And I do want to ask you, I mean, you strike me as a person. You say you, you listen to a lot of 712 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:33.920 podcasts. I know you, from time to time, we'll listen to some audiobooks and you had some guests 713 01:02:33.920 --> 01:02:40.960 before. What are two books that have changed your perspective on life, the, the last two books that 714 01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:46.880 you've read? Well, thank you, man. First of all, I'm humbled. Thank you so much for that. I love that 715 01:02:46.880 --> 01:02:53.360 that's as good of a compliment as I can get. So thank you so much. Two books that I've recently read. 716 01:02:54.960 --> 01:03:01.200 One book that I really enjoyed, and this is more like a business slash marketing book. It's called 717 01:03:01.200 --> 01:03:11.360 Play Bigger by Al Ramadan. That book really changed my thinking on category design and how to 718 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:18.000 go from start up world talk of zero to one and really creating a new categories and thinking 719 01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:25.200 about things in terms of not trying to build a competitive business, but building a business 720 01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:31.840 that doesn't need to compete. So that was one of my really, my favorite probably reads that 721 01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:39.280 got me thinking a lot of something in a new way. Recently, I read a book that was recommended to me 722 01:03:39.280 --> 01:03:46.080 from someone and it's not in my typical real house of books that I read, but I just finished reading it 723 01:03:46.080 --> 01:03:49.440 and I thought it was really, really interesting. It's called The Way of the Superior Man. 724 01:03:50.000 --> 01:03:58.480 I don't know who the author is, but it was one of those books that I could resonate with in a 725 01:03:58.480 --> 01:04:06.240 lot of ways. So I think for young males, this is a particularly good book to check out. 726 01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:15.440 It's more about life and just life as a man and tapping into your certain life forces, 727 01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:20.800 which is like a little bit raw raw, but also for me, a little bit spiritual and a little bit 728 01:04:20.800 --> 01:04:27.120 enlightening. So I like that one. David, data, data. That's right. Yeah, that's the author for those 729 01:04:27.120 --> 01:04:33.200 who are interested. So we'll certainly link them the show notes. And now the last question 730 01:04:33.200 --> 01:04:36.880 that we like to ask everybody else and we've kind of touched on in different aspects of it here 731 01:04:36.880 --> 01:04:42.480 and there, but how do we add the health back health care? That's a great question. 732 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:50.480 By building a new health care, because right now health care is sick care. It's not 733 01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:58.160 health care. We all know that. We're not promoting health. We're helping sick people hopefully 734 01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:06.240 get better. But if we want to put the health back in health care, let's really be mindful about 735 01:05:06.240 --> 01:05:14.480 what actually health is and what promotes health. And I think that to do that, we need to rethink 736 01:05:14.480 --> 01:05:21.840 our business model. We need to rethink our incentives. And we need to rethink our commitment 737 01:05:21.840 --> 01:05:31.280 to our patients. And for some people that might mean leaving a traditional system, starting a non-traditional 738 01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:40.400 type of practice and not being hung up by all of the sunk costs that we bear as physicians. 739 01:05:41.360 --> 01:05:47.520 And one last thing, I'll leave the audience with just as maybe as a source of inspiration. 740 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:57.920 But for anybody listening who has that idea or feels like there's something they want to pursue 741 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:03.840 that they haven't been able to fully commit to or haven't even been able to just get off and 742 01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:10.800 start doing it. And you're just weighed down by the commitments you've made, the sunk cost, 743 01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:15.920 the money, the time, the resources, everything you've put into becoming a doctor or whatever it may be, 744 01:06:15.920 --> 01:06:25.120 maybe as a lawyer, maybe it's something else. If you can take yourself, take yourself out of 745 01:06:25.120 --> 01:06:31.920 the driver's seat for a second. Take a

step back and think about your journey as an educational 746 01:06:31.920 --> 01:06:39.520 journey. Think of it as a fellowship, as a commitment to not need to make that doctor's 747 01:06:39.520 --> 01:06:45.840 salary that you're making right now. But perspective shift and look at it as an opportunity to get 748 01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:51.120 to where you want and just dedicate time to it. So for me, I dedicated three years. I'm on, 749 01:06:51.760 --> 01:06:58.000 I'm on currently, I just completed year one in July of my fellowship. I'm on year two. I'm going 750 01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:05.360 into year two, then I got year three. So if everything crashes and burns for me, I've already made 751 01:07:05.360 --> 01:07:09.280 that mental commitment that this is part of my residency. This is part of my fellowship. 752 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:14.480 And I hope that doesn't happen. I hope that I continue on this trajectory that I'm on. But 753 01:07:15.440 --> 01:07:23.760 if that does happen, I've prepared myself mentally for it. And you gain a so much freedom when you 754 01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:31.120 can do that. And if you can block out and give yourself room to do something, like you have one 755 01:07:31.120 --> 01:07:37.680 life, you don't have six of them. You just got one and you're never going to get the best time 756 01:07:37.680 --> 01:07:43.840 for you to do that thing you want to do is right now because the older you get, the more commitments 757 01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:50.960 you have, the more responsibilities you have and you really won't have as great of an opportunity 758 01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:56.720 as you do today. So think about those things. If you can figure out a plan or reframe something 759 01:07:56.720 --> 01:08:03.120 and this podcast inspires you, then I've done my job here. Rethinking, reframing, redefining. That's 760 01:08:03.120 --> 01:08:07.040 what we're about, man. Thanks, Robbie. Thank you, guys. Thanks, bro. 761 01:08:11.680 --> 01:08:15.840 Thanks so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed what Robbie was talking about, make sure to give 762 01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:20.560 him a follow on Instagram where he continues to keep it real about what health care truly is, 763 01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:25.920 right? And that is exactly why we brought him on to our show is because his vision aligns with 764 01:08:25.920 --> 01:08:30.160 what we've been talking about through and through with every episode. If you're a physician and 765 01:08:30.160 --> 01:08:34.720 you're interested in doing other types of work like consulting or really getting into digital 766 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:42.000 and health tech, make sure to visit beyondmedicinegroup.com and you can join Robbie's Slack community. 767 01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:45.760 As always, everything in this podcast is for educational purposes only. It does not constitute 768 01:08:45.760 --> 01:08:49.840 the price of medicine and we are not providing medical advice. No physician, patient relationship 769 01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:53.680 is formed and anything discussed in this podcast does not represent the views of our employers. 770 01:08:53.680 --> 01:08:57.520 We recommend that you seek the guidance of your personal physician regarding any specific 771 01:08:57.520 --> 01:09:02.960 health-related issues. We'll see you next time.