Full Transcript for We're not teaching content, we're teaching students w/ Kevin Dykema (NCTM re-air)

00:04:34.565 I thought there was no way. 00:04:34.685 --> 00:04:42.076 I don't have a PhD, I'm not intelligent enough, I don't know enough about all the different areas of math education to be able to speak intelligently. 00:04:42.596 --> 00:04:49.386 I had a wonderful conversation with somebody with a PhD and I shared that and she said, welcome to my life. 00:04:50.206 --> 00:04:55.336 When I talk to somebody who also was a PhD, their specialty is something different than my specialty. 00:04:55.466 --> 00:04:58.966 I can't talk about their specialty as knowledgeable as they can. 00:04:59.755 --> 00:05:07.716 And she said, really the role of president is just to know what you don't know and seek out people who, who do know better. 00:05:08.040 --> 00:05:20.721 And I've been so fortunate that over these past two years, anytime I've reached out to anybody, they've all said, sure, I'll give you a half hour of my time and help educate you with, with a variety of different things. 00:05:21.471 --> 00:05:25.360 So this presidency has probably been the greatest professional development for me. 00:05:25.391 --> 00:05:33.250 I have learned so much about math education, learned so much about humanity and been able to meet so many wonderful people such as yourself. 00:05:34.411 --> 00:05:34.980 Oh my God. 00:05:35.100 --> 00:05:37.940 This, this is why people say you're the nicest guy ever. 00:05:38.011 --> 00:05:48.250 But like so many things, you know, you just said something so interesting, you said, I love what this person said to you, that the role of president is to know what you don't know. 00:05:48.790 --> 00:06:03.341 And I actually want to pause on that for a second because I feel like, I mean, and this for sure touches on the imposter syndrome I experience sometimes, that you feel like if you, you know, and that, you know what, in fact, we're going to get right into it because this is a podcast about math trauma. 00:06:03.630 --> 00:06:13.081 And I feel like so many teachers themselves experience math anxiety because they think if they don't know everything, they can't possibly get up in front of the room and try a new strategy and teach something. 00:06:13.521 --> 00:06:20.841 And I also, you know, so I actually want to hear a little more about that, that idea of your role is to know what you don't know. 00:06:20.850 --> 00:06:26.625 How do you navigate that with like that feeling that like, you should know more than you do. 00:06:26.966 --> 00:06:28.386 Yeah, and it's a daily battle. 00:06:28.386 --> 00:06:39.985 It's something that I constantly get there, and anytime I get a media request, I have, oh, there are so many people who are much better equipped to talk to this reporter about this topic. 00:06:40.446 --> 00:06:44.896 And that just means, hey, I need to make sure that I know what's going on. 00:06:45.396 --> 00:06:51.925 I need to make sure I'm communicating with a variety of different people who have that area and reaffirm what I think I know. 00:06:52.286 --> 00:07:02.475 And a lot of times when I'm, when I'm thinking about a president's message that I'm writing, thinking about a media request, thinking about a presentation I have to give, you know, I come up with my list of talking points. 00:07:02.875 --> 00:07:04.456 Here's what I think about this. 00:07:04.875 --> 00:07:09.216 And then run it past somebody who has more expertise in that area. 00:07:09.636 --> 00:07:11.826 And then they say, Hey, yep, looks good. 00:07:11.826 --> 00:07:14.586 Or maybe you should have added this little bit to it as well. 00:07:14.615 --> 00:07:16.526 So it's been a wonderful experience. 00:07:17.485 --> 00:07:21.636 What would you say to a math teacher who experiences that same kind of thing, right? 00:07:21.646 --> 00:07:25.966 Like, who's kind of like, well, I kind of am worried about teaching this new concept. 00:07:26.935 --> 00:07:43.735 This kind of actually, to me, goes into a big question I have about professional development that I'll probably get to later, but I'll just touch on it quickly now, which is that because of the way math education is moving right now, so many teachers are expected to teach in a way they weren't taught, right? 00:07:43.735 --> 00:07:47.875 Like they haven't experienced that form of teaching themselves. 00:07:48.086 --> 00:07:51.605 They weren't necessarily trained in like their teacher program to teach that way. 00:07:51.605 --> 00:08:03.886 So they learn all these like incredible strategies during a one hour PD and they feel like that combined with their own anxiety they might have around math makes them unprepared to go try those in the classroom. 00:08:04.435 --> 00:08:06.636 What, what kind of advice do you have for them on that? 00:08:08.846 --> 00:08:09.185 Yeah. 00:08:09.196 --> 00:08:13.016 So I think the advice that I'd have is the same advice I give myself all the time. 00:08:13.605 --> 00:08:22.096 If I want my students to be willing to take risks and to learn something, I've got to be willing to model that by taking risks of on my own. 00:08:22.536 --> 00:08:30.255 There are times that I'll tell my students, you know what, I tried something new, it flat out didn't work, let's try something different. 00:08:30.593 --> 00:08:33.702 Let's not just keep doing that same thing over and over and over again. 00:08:34.013 --> 00:08:36.043 And I think as teachers, we need to model that. 00:08:36.663 --> 00:08:39.352 And we need to really keep the student in the center of mind. 00:08:40.332 --> 00:08:46.113 I know that if I teach the way that I was taught, I'll reach a subset of students. 00:08:46.243 --> 00:08:47.513 And that's fantastic. 00:08:48.232 --> 00:08:53.043 But if I'm truly interested in meeting the needs of all of my students, I have to be willing to try different things. 00:08:53.482 --> 00:09:00.163 I need to continually remind myself, what works for student A is not going to work for student B, is not going to work for student C.

00:09:00.462 --> 00:09:10.153 There is no one thing that every single student is going to connect with and every single strategy or some strategy that every single student is going to be like, Oh, this is exactly what I need. 00:09:10.932 --> 00:09:18.403 I think our job as educators, is to be willing to try a variety of different things, if we're truly interested in meeting the needs of all of our students. 00:09:18.883 --> 00:09:22.232 And I think so often we say, Oh yeah, we want to meet all of our students needs. 00:09:23.398 --> 00:09:24.518 But it's one thing to say it. 00:09:25.258 --> 00:09:29.337 It's another thing to show it with our actions and being willing to try different things. 00:09:29.408 --> 00:09:30.107 And it's tough. 00:09:30.508 --> 00:09:34.337 It's tough when I try something new that's a little out of my comfort zone. 00:09:34.707 --> 00:09:38.778 And I've got to remind myself, it's okay if it didn't work smoothly the first time. 00:09:39.317 --> 00:09:41.618 It's okay if it didn't work as smoothly the second time. 00:09:42.107 --> 00:09:43.388 Change takes a little bit. 00:09:43.648 --> 00:09:47.738 By about the third or fourth time I've tried something, I start to get a better sense. 00:09:47.807 --> 00:09:49.327 Is this going to meet students needs? 00:09:49.687 --> 00:09:51.798 Is it not going to meet students needs? 00:09:52.926 --> 00:09:59.375 You're making me think of a bit of a juicy question, this is a bit controversial, but I'm thinking what you said at the beginning. 00:09:59.375 --> 00:10:05.442 Like you said, I know if I teach the way I was taught, I'll reach a certain subset of students, but I want to reach, you know, everyone. 00:10:05.721 --> 00:10:09.339 But at the same time, there's no one way to meet everyone's needs. 00:10:11.168 --> 00:10:19.504 I mean, We know that there are a lot of people who are just kind of like, all of this new stuff is garbage, just stick to the way it was already done. 00:10:20.144 --> 00:10:39.922 And one of the arguments I hear, and I never know how to respond, so now I'm just asking you how to respond to trolls on Twitter, I'm sorry about that, but that's what you're here for, is, what about the people who say, okay, but if you're teaching in these new ways, you're now missing the subset of students that was serviced by the old way of teaching. 00:10:39.932 --> 00:10:41.542 Do you think there's anything to that? 00:10:41.562 --> 00:10:46.091 Or do you think it's like, no, the whole point is these new methods encompass more students? 00:10:47.032 --> 00:10:50.272 Yeah, I think, I think different methods, it encompasses all of them. 00:10:50.611 --> 00:10:55.481 And we need to, to really make sure that we are paying attention to the needs of all the students. 00:10:55.881 --> 00:11:04.261 Not just those students who have historically been served and not just those students who are great at the sitting and getting with a variety of different things. 00:11:04.942 --> 00:11:12.402 I also often think, you know, when you talk to most adults, most adults, when you ask them, what was your experience with math? 00:11:12.412 --> 00:11:13.351 Do you enjoy math? 00:11:13.782 --> 00:11:15.522 Most adults say, I hate math. 00:11:16.231 --> 00:11:17.381 I was never good at math. 00:11:18.402 --> 00:11:25.881 So that's a great reminder to myself of, even if I have an, a parent, a caregiver who's saying, Oh, why are you trying different things? 00:11:26.682 --> 00:11:29.022 I can just remind them, Hey, you told me you hated math. 00:11:29.302 --> 00:11:30.922 You told me you're not good at math. 00:11:31.331 --> 00:11:38.022 So what can I do so that your child, the person that you're caring for, does not have that same experience. 00:11:38.511 --> 00:11:47.011 And I think we need to do a better job as a math education community of engaging our students, caregivers, and recognizing that change looks different. 00:11:47.011 --> 00:11:56.897 It's tough for us, but it's tough for a caregiver at home who's trying to help their child, when math is being taught differently than the way that they were taught, and the way that they absolutely hated. 00:11:57.197 --> 00:12:00.236 But that's their knowledge base with, with that. 00:12:00.606 --> 00:12:07.932 And, you know, especially when I think about elementary parents and caregivers, they don't want to tell their second grader, I don't know how to do your math. 00:12:07.932 --> 00:12:16.417 One of the beautiful things about teaching middle school, most of my students caregivers will quickly tell the student, I don't know how to do this, go ask your teacher. 00:12:16.897 --> 00:12:19.557 That doesn't happen, though, in the primary grades. 00:12:19.907 --> 00:12:30.836 Instead, it gets to be the parents start to feel agitated because they feel insecure in helping their kids with their homework or help provide some of that support at home that's so necessary at times. 00:12:31.581 --> 00:12:31.851 Okay. 00:12:31.851 --> 00:12:40.101 So I actually think that's really interesting because I've noticed the same pattern where like, you know, you have all these adults saying, no, don't change math. 00:12:40.356 --> 00:12:43.317 But these are also the same adults who hated math. 00:12:43.356 --> 00:12:45.167 And I've always been like, I don't understand here. 00:12:45.447 --> 00:12:56.326 But you bring up a really good point, which is that perhaps part of the reason is that if there's any hope of them helping their kids with their homework, it needs to be taught in that traditional way. 00:12:56.677 --> 00:13:00.667 But like, what a mess, because they hated that traditional way and they don't even understand. 00:13:00.677 --> 00:13:11.025 Like, The other thing I noticed though is that there are all these adults weighing in who have grown kids or like, I don't even think that's the thing. 00:13:11.035 --> 00:13:13.155 Do you think they're just like resistant to change? 00:13:13.155 -->

00:13:14.785 Like what would the resistance be? 00:13:15.431 --> 00:13:18.390 Yeah, I think it's a, for some, it's a fear factor. 00:13:18.841 --> 00:13:26.301 It's a fear that if math education changes That may affect the way that I've always done something. 00:13:26.640 --> 00:13:30.500 That may affect who's taking my class, if I'm a professor. 00:13:30.821 --> 00:13:34.000 That may be a job security type thing for some. 00:13:34.390 --> 00:13:47.181 And for some it's just the change is unsettling, that the way that the school structure has always been worked for me, so people just need to adapt because it worked for me. 00:13:47.510 --> 00:13:51.291 Not recognizing sometimes that, hey, it worked for me. 00:13:51.931 --> 00:14:10.985 My K 12 math education worked fine for me, but if I'm truly interested in meeting the needs of more students and helping have a math literate society, reducing the number of people that freely admit they're horrible at math and they hate math, I've got to be willing to change and to adapt and to try different things. 00:14:11.306 --> 00:14:22.056 That does not mean that the Kevin Dykemas of today are going to, who would have done well, no matter what, my needs are still going to be met if I was a student, I'm still going to learn that content. 00:14:22.336 --> 00:14:36.566 But now instead of it being a relatively small subset, we can argue how big of a subset of students it is that needs to have been met in the past, now we're increasing, and we're having more people recognizing the value of math, and seeing that math is useful. 00:14:36.855 --> 00:14:47.926 It's not just a subject to memorize a bunch of procedures, and then flush once you get to the test, memorize a new set of procedures, flush when you get to the test, and then never do math again. 00:14:48.296 --> 00:14:55.885 I want people to recognize that math applies to the real world, that math can be used as a language to describe real world phenomena. 00:14:56.832 --> 00:14:58.336 Oh, you're an inspiration. 00:14:58.427 --> 00:14:59.667 You're, you truly are. 00:15:00.017 --> 00:15:10.157 And this, this actually really leads me though to the next big question that I have since you're, you know, such a big part of your life is, is professional development and being in that world. 00:15:10.157 --> 00:15:19.836 Like, I've always wondered this, here we are talking about how teachers need, you know, there's been a quite a drastic shift, I'd say, in math education over the past, like, what, how many years do you think? 00:15:20.163 --> 00:15:21.433 Five, ten years, 00:15:21.938 --> 00:15:22.649 well, yeah. 00:15:22.953 --> 00:15:24.354 and it's, yeah, I mean 00:15:24.578 --> 00:15:26.099 Okay, let's say five, ten years. 00:15:26.328 --> 00:15:30.568 I think there's been a greater focus or a greater recognition that we're teaching students. 00:15:31.788 --> 00:15:32.999 We're not teaching content. 00:15:33.708 --> 00:15:40.469 That in the past, so much of our professional development was on, how do you teach fractions to students? 00:15:40.469 --> 00:15:42.339 How do you teach algebra to students? 00:15:43.078 --> 00:15:47.558 Now, I sense there's a shift of, how do I teach students algebra? 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.198 How do I teach students fractions? 00:15:50.589 --> 00:15:58.678 That's not everywhere, but I think there's starting to be a recognition that, that student A may have different needs than student B. 00:15:58.938 --> 00:16:01.509 They may have different lived experiences. 00:16:01.869 --> 00:16:05.149 They may have different, different community environments. 00:16:05.149 --> 00:16:15.879 And we need to, to recognize that, honor that, celebrate that, and adapt how we've done things, To better build on the strengths that every single student brings to the educational classroom setting. 00:16:17.063 --> 00:16:21.543 Oh my god, this is making me think of 4, 000 questions, but I need to like just keep my brain on track. 00:16:21.634 --> 00:16:22.224 So, okay. 00:16:22.224 --> 00:16:22.974 This is so interesting. 00:16:22.974 --> 00:16:25.923 You said this because I'm also thinking like you said 5, 10 years. 00:16:26.114 --> 00:16:35.448 In the history of teaching that is like a very quick time frame and I'm even thinking about this Like I published a book with Scholastic in 2017. 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:36.249 Okay? 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:49.879 And that book, which I don't talk about because I don't want to get cancelled, I'm kidding, it's still a very useful book, okay, Scholastic, I love you, but it was called Math Hacks and the whole point was, it was all about like, how to teach tricks, right, like how to teach math tricks. 00:16:50.342 --> 00:16:56.683 And also, alongside that, there are 40 pages of content about identity. 00:16:56.683 --> 00:16:59.153 So stuff like pep talks for students, mental health. 00:16:59.173 --> 00:17:07.493 And it was the first math book published basically where you'd have math content alongside like, work around socio emotional learning. 00:17:07.824 --> 00:17:10.394 Sorry, I'm whispering that cause I know we're not allowed to say that in America. 00:17:10.624 --> 00:17:22.203 Anyway, so you'd, so it was like this whole thing, but it's funny cause fast forward, what, it's been six years, fast forward to now, I can't even talk about that book because the idea of a math trick is like the opposite of what we're doing. 00:17:22.203 --> 00:17:27.203 Like you said, we're trying to like, Really dig deep into how students think and emphasize the learning and all of this stuff. 00:17:27.394 --> 00:17:34.723 So that is a very short time span for me to have published this book that was like we were all about it and six years later we're like no absolutely not. 00:17:35.233 --> 00:17:43.854 Which leads me to you're a teacher, like imagine you're a teacher, a teacher who's been teaching for six years and suddenly like the whole landscape has changed. 00:17:44.013 -->

00:17:51.263 You're out of your teacher training program because it was six years ago, you've now been teaching in the classroom, and now you're expected to teach in this completely different way. 00:17:51.554 --> 00:17:55.294 And this is where I'm like, okay, so what are your options? 00:17:55.314 --> 00:17:58.564 Like you, it's, it has to be professional development, right? 00:17:58.574 --> 00:18:01.503 Like, it's not like you're, you're going back to school. 00:18:02.163 --> 00:18:04.243 It's got to be sustained professional development. 00:18:04.394 --> 00:18:11.844 It can't be this professional development where you have a speaker come in for an hour and say here's what you need to do and then you never have any follow up with that. 00:18:12.334 --> 00:18:23.679 I mean, I think about a lot of the professional development I received in my career I sit in the hour session and say, Oh, what a great idea! I go back to the four walls of my classroom and like, what in the world does that look like? 00:18:23.969 --> 00:18:29.128 How do I, how do, what does that really mean in the context of my eighth grade math classroom? 00:18:29.568 --> 00:18:33.858 So I think we need to have these sustained professional developments that, you know, you get a new idea. 00:18:34.209 --> 00:18:38.999 But here's what it looks like, and oh, let's come back and let's revisit this idea again in four weeks. 00:18:39.239 --> 00:18:44.009 What have you done in the meantime to try out this new strategy, to try out this new thing? 00:18:44.509 --> 00:18:47.058 I think it's also the recognition, you know, you talk about math tricks. 00:18:47.568 --> 00:18:54.888 It's gotta be a recognition that when we used to teach really promoting math tricks, it wasn't like we were trying to be harmful to our students. 00:18:55.919 --> 00:18:57.868 It's just that we have now learned better. 00:18:58.118 --> 00:19:03.868 We have learned that that's not leading to a generation of people who are, who are truly appreciating mathematics. 00:19:03.868 --> 00:19:03.909 Right. 00:19:04.574 --> 00:19:13.864 I also think part of this move away from shift, or the shift from, you know, really utilizing tricks to get into understanding, is really because of technology. 00:19:14.564 --> 00:19:19.713 Technology has evolved to the point where students are saying, why do I need to learn that stupid trick? 00:19:20.223 --> 00:19:23.144 I can just say, hey Siri, how do you do this? 00:19:23.463 --> 00:19:24.993 And Siri will tell it correctly. 00:19:25.354 --> 00:19:32.854 Or there's an app called Photomath that I'm fairly positive that no secondary teacher says, hey kids, go home and use Photomath. 00:19:33.179 --> 00:19:35.169 But our students know about it and they're doing that. 00:19:35.429 --> 00:19:38.929 So our students are seeing this disconnect when we're trying to teach math as tricks. 00:19:38.929 --> 00:19:40.699 They're like, why? 00:19:41.068 --> 00:19:42.509 Technology will do that. 00:19:42.959 --> 00:19:52.638 And I think we're starting to recognize that when we've taught math as tricks, what I think with the message we're really sending our kids is math is so incredibly difficult to learn. 00:19:53.239 --> 00:20:00.509 And in fact, it's so incredibly difficult that I have to use tricks in order to help you succeed and get the correct answer. 00:20:01.179 --> 00:20:05.868 I'd much rather have a student who says, Hey Siri, what's the quadratic formula? 00:20:06.148 --> 00:20:11.999 And Siri can spit it back out at them, but knows what the quadratic formula is actually doing. 00:20:12.429 --> 00:20:23.409 I'd much rather have a kid that says, Hey Siri, what's the formula for the area of a triangle, or the area of a trapezoid, but understands where it's coming from and how to use it to answer real world situations. 00:20:25.703 --> 00:20:27.023 Oh my God. 00:20:27.023 --> 00:20:31.273 Yeah, this is really making me think because, you're totally right. 00:20:31.844 --> 00:20:35.364 And I also wonder, like, we're so polarized. 00:20:35.364 --> 00:20:44.943 I don't know if you know this story, but I was on like a morning television show last year and I showed the hosts, you know, the nine times table tricks with your hands. 00:20:45.374 --> 00:20:51.773 And they like, these are like two really math anxious hosts, like they hate math and they were so excited. 00:20:51.773 --> 00:20:53.084 Like their eyes lit up. 00:20:53.084 --> 00:20:54.663 They were like, Oh my God, does this work with other numbers? 00:20:54.713 --> 00:20:56.733 They were asking great questions, right? 00:20:56.733 --> 00:20:58.294 Like, does this only work with the nines? 00:20:58.304 --> 00:20:59.463 Like, why does this work? 00:20:59.663 --> 00:21:00.163 This and that. 00:21:00.163 --> 00:21:03.503 And then we got into like the divisibility rule and like, whatever. 00:21:03.837 --> 00:21:06.137 And I got so much hate. 00:21:06.198 --> 00:21:22.718 Like I had, I would wake up to a hundred messages every day being like, I can't believe you're teaching these tricks, like that's so damaging, like a teacher actually wrote to me and was like, I used to love your work, but like I saw you on TV doing a math trick and it's, and I was like, okay, let's, can we just take a minute here? 00:21:22.718 --> 00:21:24.992 Like, I get what you're saying, Kevin, right? 00:21:24.992 --> 00:21:27.633 Like, I completely get what you're saying, and I get the message that sends. 00:21:27.643 --> 00:21:39.442 But is there not a world where we teach the knowledge and understanding, and then we also have in our back pocket to reach the students who just can't get engaged this trick to have them asking, but why does it work? 00:21:40.278 --> 00:21:40.688 Yes. 00:21:41.117 --> 00:21:47.867 And I think, I think in math education, and probably education in general, you know you spoke to it a little bit ago, it's the polarizations. 00:21:48.248 --> 00:21:54.167 Either you're on this end,

or you're on this end, and I would argue so often, talk to a real classroom teacher. 00:21:54.907 --> 00:21:59.758 Most classroom teachers are not on this end or this end, they're somewhere in the middle. 00:22:00.038 --> 00:22:02.827 They're recognizing when do I use this approach? 00:22:02.968 --> 00:22:05.428 When do I use this approach? 00:22:05.728 --> 00:22:11.887 And I think there's a lot more nuance that's involved than what a lot of people want to admit. 00:22:12.288 --> 00:22:18.557 And I think it comes back to this notion of there's no one strategy that's going to work for every single student. 00:22:18.968 --> 00:22:31.883 And if I had that student that I've tried this repeatedly and it's not working, maybe I need to try something different to get them engaged, get them starting to recognize, all right, I can do mathematics, I can start to make sense of that. 00:22:32.133 --> 00:22:47.913 And I would argue if we're going to use some tricks, some mnemonic devices are great, I mean, there's lots of things out there, we need to make sure they understand when to use it, how to use, why to use that and engage them with that and we can't give them a steady diet of that. 00:22:48.123 --> 00:22:52.153 We've got to give them a diet that has a wide range of different things. 00:22:53.538 --> 00:23:05.528 It's funny because earlier you were like, yes, the, the way to this for teachers, since most of, you know, any teacher that's been teaching for basically over like, you know, five, 10 years was trained in a completely different way, probably has different practices. 00:23:05.708 --> 00:23:07.018 You said it's professional development. 00:23:07.107 --> 00:23:08.807 You said it's sustained professional development. 00:23:09.097 --> 00:23:20.097 And I have to be honest, Kevin, I don't, I don't know any, any teachers, I know maybe a few, but I don't know many teachers who have sustained professional development opportunities in their schools. 00:23:20.778 --> 00:23:23.178 Isn't this something that's like really lacking? 00:23:23.208 --> 00:23:24.157 Very much so. 00:23:24.188 --> 00:23:25.567 Very, very lacking. 00:23:25.938 --> 00:23:33.022 And there are some places that, that say they're going to do that, but in so many different districts, it's sort of a flavor of the month. 00:23:33.633 --> 00:23:35.583 This month, we're going to have professional development on this. 00:23:35.772 --> 00:23:38.153 The next month, something completely and totally different. 00:23:38.153 --> 00:23:40.942 The next month, something completely and totally different. 00:23:41.482 --> 00:23:45.042 And as teachers, sometimes we sort of say, Ah, nice idea. 00:23:45.413 --> 00:23:49.752 Push it off to the side because we know next month, next year, there's going to be a different focus. 00:23:50.252 --> 00:24:00.637 Those places that have started to really say, all right, here's our focus for the year, here's our focus for the next two years, has started to see some, some improvement with that. 00:24:01.077 --> 00:24:09.748 And I think so often professional developers, and I'm just as guilty of that as others at times, we think we need to have this big, new, shiny object. 00:24:10.067 --> 00:24:11.607 We need to have brand new things. 00:24:12.028 --> 00:24:17.468 It's okay to say there was nothing terribly new in here, but let's put it in a different context with it. 00:24:17.778 --> 00:24:27.373 Let's take what we've known to be true for many years and let's just keep reminding ourselves, this is what it looks, give examples of what it looks like in the classroom. 00:24:27.752 --> 00:24:34.742 Allow teachers opportunities to share their successes, their challenges with each other as they're trying out a variety of different things. 00:24:35.593 --> 00:24:39.593 And at the same time, recognizing the world around our students is changing. 00:24:40.452 --> 00:24:43.722 We've got to be willing to adapt to meet the needs of our students. 00:24:44.538 --> 00:24:55.268 The technology that existed when I started teaching in 1995 looks tremendously different than the technology that now exists in 2024. 00:24:55.448 --> 00:24:58.317 I mean, email wasn't even really a thing when I started teaching. 00:24:58.617 --> 00:25:05.182 I was so excited my first year, because our principal got to select eight teachers to get an email address from the district. 00:25:05.442 --> 00:25:08.212 And I was one of those eight teachers, and I thought it was all hot stuff. 00:25:08.282 --> 00:25:10.563 Well, now we all have email addresses. 00:25:10.563 --> 00:25:12.323 We have multiple email addresses. 00:25:12.792 --> 00:25:18.292 But yet, if I'm going to keep teaching the way I started teaching in 1995, I'm not meeting my students needs. 00:25:18.563 --> 00:25:22.532 I'm not preparing them to be a productive human being. 00:25:24.778 --> 00:25:43.317 I'm just like stressed kind of like, I'm really putting this together in my head of like, if you didn't have this consistent professional development you're talking about, there's no real way for teachers to learn the new things they're supposed to be doing unless they literally on their own time go like do research and look it up. 00:25:43.347 --> 00:25:54.887 And then in my mind, and I know because you're someone who's really invested in equity, which I actually want to talk about in a sec, I'm imagining it costs money for these boards to do this professional development. 00:25:54.897 --> 00:25:59.508 And like, like, so then in my mind, I'm like, isn't there such a lack of equity? 00:25:59.508 --> 00:26:07.087 Because the only teachers who receive this professional development from their boards and schools have to belong to schools that can afford it. 00:26:07.087 --> 00:26:07.778 Am I wrong here? 00:26:08.063 --> 00:26:17.692 Yeah, I think there's, I think there's lots of different pots of, of money within school boards, within school districts to, to provide some professional

resources for their teachers. 00:26:18.182 --> 00:26:35.103 And I think when you do have those, those teachers who are going out and actively maybe using their own dollars to, to read books, to listen to a podcast, go to a webinar, go to a free virtual conference, there's a lot of things that don't require travel and don't require other things. 00:26:35.647 --> 00:26:40.238 But then it's on those teachers then to share some of those ideas with their colleagues. 00:26:40.788 --> 00:26:50.347 And I think when we have more of those peer to peer conversations, you don't always need to bring in a so called expert to help move the needle to meet kids needs. 00:26:50.873 --> 00:26:58.762 You've had a classroom teacher who may have read a book about math education and shares some of their big key learnings with some of their colleagues. 00:26:59.222 --> 00:27:02.663 And I think that's the direction that we need to keep moving in as well. 00:27:02.972 --> 00:27:08.603 And then all of a sudden, instead of it just being one teacher being affected, maybe you have two teachers who are being affected. 00:27:09.093 --> 00:27:11.343 Then maybe it grows to three teachers and four teachers. 00:27:11.607 --> 00:27:17.483 We have to be willing to share with our colleagues and help them learn right along with us. 00:27:18.998 --> 00:27:22.003 Do you think like that's asking a lot of teachers? 00:27:22.003 --> 00:27:38.125 Like, I'm actually just wondering, like, do you think this happens in any other profession like a bank or something, a banker, they're expected to go out and use their own resources to learn more about how to be a better banker and then to come back and teach it to the other bankers. 00:27:38.550 --> 00:27:41.421 Like, maybe I'm wrong, but like, do you think, do you think this is unique to 00:27:41.810 --> 00:27:43.211 Yeah, I don't think it's unique to teaching. 00:27:43.441 --> 00:27:50.800 My wife is a social worker and we had a conversation yesterday and her social work team, they're currently doing a book study. 00:27:51.060 --> 00:27:54.901 And they went out and bought a copy of the book for those that want to participate. 00:27:55.280 --> 00:27:57.070 They're all reading it on their own time. 00:27:57.455 --> 00:28:05.465 They're having a book club meeting outside of work hours because they just want to grow in their own skills and grow in that. 00:28:05.715 --> 00:28:08.286 So I don't think it's abnormal necessarily. 00:28:08.516 --> 00:28:15.566 I do think that that teachers are expected maybe more than some other professions, but I don't, I don't ask other professions, how do they grow professionally? 00:28:15.586 --> 00:28:23.175 So it could be a very normal thing that other professions are spending some of their own dollars and resources doing that. 00:28:23.691 --> 00:28:24.800 And it's definitely a challenge. 00:28:24.881 --> 00:28:32.101 It's definitely, there's definitely inequities involved with that and, you know, it'd be wonderful

if schools were able to do all of that stuff. 00:28:32.520 --> 00:28:38.320 But I keep reminding myself, if I'm truly answering the needs of my students, I've got to be willing to try to do things differently. 00:28:38.611 --> 00:28:43.471 I have to be willing to ask my colleagues, Hey, what do you think about this? 00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:44.310 What do you think about this? 00:28:44.391 --> 00:28:47.471 And start to open up some of those collegial conversations. 00:28:47.980 --> 00:28:54.381 So that I'm not just teaching the same way as I have the last 25 years, because it'd be boring to me. 00:28:54.691 --> 00:28:56.760 I want to try new ideas. 00:28:57.090 --> 00:28:59.830 I don't, I mean, sometimes people say, how have you taught A3 that long? 00:29:00.171 --> 00:29:01.030 Isn't that boring? 00:29:01.381 --> 00:29:03.030 I keep saying no, because it's different. 00:29:03.596 --> 00:29:20.276 If I were to teach you the exact same thing every single year, I mean the content doesn't change, but the kids are changing, society is changing, the instructional strategies that I'm trying are changing, and I think we need to continually push ourselves to try new ideas. 00:29:21.421 --> 00:29:21.971 I love it. 00:29:22.030 --> 00:29:22.500 I love it. 00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:23.201 I think you're right. 00:29:23.201 --> 00:29:24.310 And I, it's so true. 00:29:24.310 --> 00:29:25.750 Like, especially for yourself. 00:29:25.877 --> 00:29:30.428 I mean, in any part of our life when we're not growing, like, even like, imagine you did the same routine at the gym every day. 00:29:30.438 --> 00:29:32.028 You'd just be like, I'm bored. 00:29:32.028 --> 00:29:32.298 Right? 00:29:32.298 --> 00:29:36.587 Like, it's like, you need to, like, variety is the spice of life, spice of the classroom, whatever. 00:29:36.978 --> 00:29:37.468 Um. 00:29:37.776 --> 00:29:39.875 You know what, I want to ask you a bit about math trauma. 00:29:39.895 --> 00:29:49.016 You know, like you've been teaching grade eight math for over 25 years, which is cray cray to me, quite frankly, but very cool for you and very lucky for your students. 00:29:49.538 --> 00:29:58.808 Did you, thinking about, you started teaching in the 90s when we weren't even talking about math anxiety or anything like Have you seen a shift? 00:29:58.808 --> 00:30:04.308 Like, first of all, do you feel like you have always seen signs of math anxiety in your 00:30:04.459 --> 00:30:05.398 Oh, without doubt. 00:30:05.638 --> 00:30:06.558 Without a doubt. 00:30:06.828 --> 00:30:08.249 Now we just have a name for it. 00:30:08.528 --> 00:30:12.739 And now as a society we recognize and we value students. 00:30:12.778 --> 00:30:15.808 We recognize and value humans mental health. 00:30:16.348 --> 00:30:21.058 That we recognize that it's okay if you've got a chemical imbalance. 00:30:21.128 --> 00:30:23.868 It's okay if you've experienced some of these things. 00:30:24.288 --> 00:30:30.048 Let's work our way through it and, and

let's, let's continue to, to grow as human beings. 00:30:31.318 --> 00:30:32.959 When do you feel that shift happened? 00:30:33.364 --> 00:30:34.733 Yeah, that's a great question. 00:30:35.223 --> 00:30:48.574 Uh, within the last 10 or so years, really since the pandemic, it has, has really become much more, much more relevant to the human beings as a whole, society as a whole. 00:30:48.864 --> 00:30:59.144 Really over the last 10 years, the sort of the shift to, you know, came back to a conversation earlier that we're starting to shift from teaching content to kids to teaching kids content. 00:30:59.503 --> 00:31:07.104 And I think the same thing is, you know, is we have this focus, we're recognizing, alright, not everybody has the same backgrounds. 00:31:07.104 --> 00:31:11.804 Some have anxiety, some have experienced trauma in the past. 00:31:12.124 --> 00:31:14.604 And we need to recognize that and honor that. 00:31:14.993 --> 00:31:18.973 And not say, oh, here's a kid who's had math trauma, they're never going to be good at math. 00:31:20.614 --> 00:31:23.374 We need to figure out what can we do to build their identity? 00:31:23.634 --> 00:31:28.663 What can we do to help them see that they are capable of learning mathematics? 00:31:29.229 --> 00:31:34.298 And not continually do the same traumatic experiences for them over and over and over again. 00:31:35.798 --> 00:31:44.693 Well, it's so funny because like, as you know, I just published a book, Math Therapy, about math trauma, and I always think about, um, How do I put this? 00:31:44.693 --> 00:31:57.284 Like just this idea of like, okay, so now we're at a point where we all can at least, you're right, because I remember I did this talk for a bunch of professors in like 2018 and I was talking about math anxiety and they literally thought I had like made it up. 00:31:57.473 --> 00:31:58.713 And that was only six years ago. 00:31:58.723 --> 00:32:00.134 Like they were like, that's not a thing. 00:32:00.423 --> 00:32:01.144 So it's like, okay, fine. 00:32:01.144 --> 00:32:05.644 So now we can all at least be like, yes, there is an emotional component to math learning, fine. 00:32:05.923 --> 00:32:10.733 But I still find there's, and I understand why, but I want your take on it. 00:32:10.743 --> 00:32:19.239 There's this, still this prioritization of like, okay, fine, there's math anxiety, but I really need to focus on how to teach this content. 00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:22.578 And like, you know, the mental health part really needs to take a back burner. 00:32:22.598 --> 00:32:25.878 Whereas like, I think you and I are kind of like, no, no, no. 00:32:26.078 --> 00:32:31.298 Because if you're teaching math to a kid who literally has shut down, it doesn't matter how good your content is. 00:32:31.378 --> 00:32:32.769 Like, it just like, doesn't matter. 00:32:33.148 --> 00:32:40.364 So like, I'm kind of wondering when, I mean, do you think it's kind of because some people still don't take mental health seriously? 00:32:40.364 --> 00:32:41.104 Like, what is it? 00:32:41.104 --> 00:32:44.013 Like, I find there's a big disconnect. 00:32:44.368 --> 00:32:45.828 I think definitely so. 00:32:46.098 --> 00:32:48.689 I think there's also, I mean some of it's that they don't think it's a real thing. 00:32:49.009 --> 00:32:50.929 I think there's also this feeling of inadequacy. 00:32:51.959 --> 00:32:57.868 My training as an educator was not in how do you meet the health needs of a student. 00:32:58.368 --> 00:33:06.638 My training, my professional development up until recently was always on instruction, instruction, instruction, not on how do you take care of, of kids. 00:33:07.078 --> 00:33:15.753 And I think there's that, that, oh my goodness, I don't know what to do, so let's just sort of push it off to the side and we'll let somebody else take care of that. 00:33:16.104 --> 00:33:24.913 But I, doggone it, I know how to teach math, so I'll just keep teaching math and somebody else can take care of the mental health needs and do that. 00:33:25.243 --> 00:33:27.663 And I think it needs to be through a collective effort. 00:33:28.034 --> 00:33:33.153 We all need to be paying attention to our students lived experiences. 00:33:33.598 --> 00:33:39.378 It can't just be for, for the school counselor, the school social worker, we all need to play a role in doing that. 00:33:39.778 --> 00:33:43.769 And, as a consultant, I also need to recognize that isn't my training. 00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:55.219 There are people who have a whole lot more experience, who have a whole lot more knowledge, and I need to know when do I tap in to the, to those who have that professional background and those professional experiences. 00:33:56.634 --> 00:34:00.723 And that goes back to how we started this, of you saying it's important to know what you don't know. 00:34:01.054 --> 00:34:03.933 But like, okay, but now, Kevin, I'm like, you're blowing my mind even more. 00:34:03.933 --> 00:34:07.433 And honestly, we actually have to wrap up, but like, I don't even want to, because I 40 more questions. 00:34:07.433 --> 00:34:13.398 But like, I haven't even asked you anything I wanted to ask you, because I'm so into this convo, Because now I'm like, hold on a second. 00:34:13.778 --> 00:34:16.606 If we're kind of like, yeah, now there's a Recognization. 00:34:16.606 --> 00:34:19.429 Is that a word? 00:34:20.018 --> 00:34:20.389 It is, 00:34:20.804 --> 00:34:21.853 If not, it's now 00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:25.108 Recognition. 00:34:27.268 --> 00:34:37.778 if there's a recognition that like, yes, the mental health of our students is of primary importance in the classroom, I'm like, okay, but hold on. 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:41.389 Shouldn't we now be including that as part of teacher training? 00:34:41.418 --> 00:34:49.978 I, like, I say this because I bet you there are a lot of teachers, I know there are a lot of teachers who are like, I didn't get into this for this, like, I really

just wanted to teach math. 00:34:50.148 --> 00:34:52.259 Which, by the way, is completely fair. 00:34:52.349 --> 00:34:59.614 Like, I think it's fair to be like, quite frankly, the reason I left the classroom was like, I was like, I, oh, I don't want to classroom manage. 00:34:59.813 --> 00:35:01.344 That's not what I want to do. 00:35:01.554 --> 00:35:02.813 I just wanted to teach math. 00:35:02.864 --> 00:35:04.643 But the truth is you have to do both. 00:35:04.653 --> 00:35:09.103 And that's why I left the classroom because I didn't want to, I, you know, I wanted to teach math. 00:35:09.103 --> 00:35:10.373 And so I went a completely different route. 00:35:11.793 --> 00:35:14.963 So I think it's fair for teachers now to be like, but hold on a second. 00:35:14.963 --> 00:35:18.403 I actually have no interest, like, I really just want math concepts. 00:35:18.693 --> 00:35:26.469 And now I'm like, well, shouldn't we then, if we recognize how important this is, shouldn't we make this a part of teacher training and a part of like the qualification to become a new teacher? 00:35:26.469 --> 00:35:27.478 Oh my god, what do you think? 00:35:27.534 --> 00:35:37.673 Yeah, I think that, I think it probably is, I think there are colleges of education that are spending a lot more time focusing in on, on the student's mental health issues and student mental health needs. 00:35:37.974 --> 00:35:45.813 Recognizing that, you know, as you said, if that kid's in that shutdown because of whatever is going on in their life, they're not gonna be learning anything. 00:35:46.094 --> 00:35:47.054 I get excited sometimes. 00:35:47.054 --> 00:35:55.244 I think, all right, from five, ten years ago to now, how much more part of a conversation is students mental health, students trauma? 00:35:55.514 --> 00:35:57.974 How much more is that, than the conversation now? 00:35:58.213 --> 00:35:59.983 What's it going to be like in five years? 00:36:00.284 --> 00:36:07.914 What's it going to be like in ten years, that I think we're on the cusp of figuring out how do we better meet the needs of all of our kids? 00:36:08.434 --> 00:36:12.668 And I think sometimes some of the naysayers say, Oh, you're not teaching math. 00:36:12.728 --> 00:36:14.009 No, we're still teaching math. 00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.389 But we're recognizing we're teaching math to human beings. 00:36:17.998 --> 00:36:28.798 And if we're not, if we're not honoring the experiences of our, of the human beings within our classroom, there's nothing that I can do to help truly meet the needs of every single one of them. 00:36:29.248 --> 00:36:33.119 And I need to continually look at what can I do to better meet the needs of all of my students. 00:36:33.623 --> 00:36:37.164 Not just those students who aren't experiencing any trauma. 00:36:37.443 --> 00:36:41.474 Not just those students who have been told their entire life, Oh, you're great at math. 00:36:41.824 --> 00:36:46.934 What am I truly doing to help try to improve math education for every single student? 00:36:47.684 --> 00:36:49.213 I just, you're so great. 00:36:49.293 --> 00:36:49.963 You're so great. 00:36:49.963 --> 00:36:51.063 You're so passionate. 00:36:51.494 --> 00:36:54.753 Um, I have to end this interview, I do have to ask one question. 00:36:54.764 --> 00:36:58.244 What is the thing you're most excited about for those going to NCTM? 00:36:58.253 --> 00:37:02.344 Like we want a, we want a little spoiler, you know, like a Kevin's recommendations. 00:37:02.643 --> 00:37:10.833 The thing that fills my bucket when I go to NCTM and to many other math education conferences is just the excitement, the energy that's there. 00:37:11.193 --> 00:37:12.773 It's the reconnecting. 00:37:13.143 --> 00:37:17.893 It's working with other people who are passionate about meeting students needs. 00:37:18.284 --> 00:37:19.713 And for me, that's always a highlight. 00:37:19.733 --> 00:37:22.603 It's those interactions that I have with people. 00:37:22.873 --> 00:37:34.853 It's not always necessarily the sessions that I go to, and there are some dynamite sessions to go to, but it's really about those interactions, those hallway conversations, those quick little sidebar conversations you have after a session. 00:37:35.284 --> 00:37:38.103 That's what I get most excited for when I think about going to NCTM. 00:37:39.943 --> 00:37:44.313 You are such a president because that was like a politician's you know? 00:37:46.393 --> 00:37:51.393 Okay, I'm gonna now ask you the two final questions that we always ask our guests. 00:37:52.153 --> 00:37:53.014 Question number one. 00:37:53.023 --> 00:37:57.643 What do you say to one of your cute little grade eight students who's like, but Kevin, I'm just not a math person. 00:37:58.398 --> 00:37:58.938 Yeah. 00:37:58.938 --> 00:38:00.539 That's a great question. 00:38:00.898 --> 00:38:06.838 And I think in the past we've just said, Oh, just tell them if you're a person, you're a math person, but they don't really believe that. 00:38:07.219 --> 00:38:11.829 And I think it's when I have that kid that says that, I need to figure out why. 00:38:12.219 --> 00:38:14.929 Why do they not see themselves as a math person? 00:38:15.309 --> 00:38:21.369 I need to then find some of those things that they are excelling at with that, find that student's strength with that. 00:38:21.699 --> 00:38:24.829 And sometimes I even say, all right, hey, let's think back to when you were a preschooler. 00:38:25.219 --> 00:38:26.869 You don't remember being a preschooler. 00:38:27.219 --> 00:38:28.918 I certainly was not your preschool teacher. 00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:33.289 When you were a preschool teacher, when you had five objects, And the teacher asked, how many were there? 00:38:33.298 --> 00:38:35.478 You had to count one, two, three, four, five. 00:38:35.489 --> 00:38:37.628 The teacher shuffled them up and said, how many are there? 00:38:37.969 --> 00:38:38.929 You didn't know. 00:38:39.188

--> 00:38:40.418 You had to count them again. 00:38:40.429 --> 00:38:41.768 One, two, three, four, five. 00:38:42.048 --> 00:38:47.599 But now, if you see those five objects, you're like, Oh, I know there's five objects there. 00:38:48.059 --> 00:38:55.898 That sometimes, you may think you're not a math person, because you don't fully understand the content that we're learning at that hot moment right there. 00:38:56.349 --> 00:38:58.648 But think back to what you learned three years ago. 00:38:59.088 --> 00:39:03.869 You feel confident about many of those skills that you have, so you are a math person. 00:39:04.148 --> 00:39:12.349 You may not feel fully confident in what we're doing right at this moment, But in three years, you may look back at this and say, Oh, I don't know why I was worried about that. 00:39:12.568 --> 00:39:14.009 Now I fully understand it. 00:39:14.309 --> 00:39:17.949 We've got to continue to push our kids to get to that understanding stage. 00:39:18.289 --> 00:39:21.708 Because it makes it so much more enjoyable for them and they start to see a purpose for it. 00:39:21.929 --> 00:39:25.478 And as human beings, I don't want to do something that I don't understand. 00:39:26.509 --> 00:39:27.898 Our students are going to be that the same way. 00:39:27.958 --> 00:39:32.188 We've got to get them to that understanding and help them start to appreciate the mathematics. 00:39:33.509 --> 00:39:34.108 I love that. 00:39:34.128 --> 00:39:42.228 And I have a quote for that, which is, I use this in all aspects of my life, which is once upon a time, you wanted what you have now. 00:39:42.739 --> 00:39:47.568 So this idea of like, once upon a time, you just wanted to understand. 00:39:47.938 --> 00:39:49.838 something you already understand today. 00:39:49.898 --> 00:39:54.048 I can't, I need to rephrase that, but like, that idea, I really, I really love that. 00:39:54.048 --> 00:39:59.148 I do, there's an activity in my book that I use for this called I Used to Think and Now I Know. 00:39:59.168 --> 00:40:03.509 And it's like, I used to think I'd never be able to count to five, and now I know how. 00:40:03.688 --> 00:40:14.128 I used to, and when you, when your students make a long enough list of that, you start being like, You You know, like the way you feel about math now is the same way you felt two weeks ago about a different part of math. 00:40:14.599 --> 00:40:15.608 I, I really like that. 00:40:16.219 --> 00:40:20.679 Um, final question, if there was one thing you could change about math education, what would it be? 00:40:21.891 --> 00:40:26.751 If there was one thing that I could change, it would be to increase the amount of student to student discourse. 00:40:27.271 --> 00:40:28.911 That there are too many classrooms. 00:40:29.262 --> 00:40:31.342 My own classroom at times, so I'm just as guilty. 00:40:31.762 --> 00:40:35.802 Where the only dialogue is teacher to student, teacher to student, teacher to student. 00:40:36.152 --> 00:40:38.411 I need to get my students actively engaged. 00:40:38.672 --> 00:40:43.032 When my students are getting that student to student discord, they're more likely to be actively engaged. 00:40:43.072 --> 00:40:46.192 They're more likely to be able to make sense of the mathematics. 00:40:46.632 --> 00:40:49.572 And they're going to begin to have that increased motivation. 00:40:49.871 --> 00:40:58.661 So that's, I mean, if there's, if there's one thing that I would change, in fact, wave my magic wand and everybody would, would be focusing on that, it would be that student to student discourse. 00:41:00.126 --> 00:41:00.597 I love it. 00:41:00.597 --> 00:41:01.637 No one said that before. 00:41:02.177 --> 00:41:02.766 Way to go. 00:41:02.936 --> 00:41:03.177 First 00:41:03.286 --> 00:41:04.507 Hey, awesome. 00:41:05.467 --> 00:41:07.777 This is why you're the president 00:41:07.777 --> 00:41:07.867 Yeah. 00:41:08.916 --> 00:41:11.047 Kevin, it was amazing having you on the podcast. 00:41:11.047 --> 00:41:14.177 Thanks for being just as great of a guy as everyone says you are. 00:41:14.206 --> 00:41:24.882 Well, thanks very much for the kind words and thanks for having me on this podcast and thanks for, for publishing a great book that helps us all learn about how can we better meet the needs of our students. 00:41:26.007 --> 00:41:27.856 I'm going to count that as an official endorsement. 00:41:27.916 --> 00:41:29.867 Kevin Dykema endorses Math Therapy. 00:41:29.867 --> 00:41:30.047 Yeah! 00:41:30.617 --> 00:41:31.117 Ok. 00:41:31.146 --> 00:41:34.487 Bye! Guys. 00:41:34.487 --> 00:41:37.547 I have no idea why I didn't swear that entire time. 00:41:37.547 --> 00:41:39.077 Like I'm going to have to unpack that later. 00:41:39.077 --> 00:41:41.358 Like that is very weird for me. 00:41:41.958 --> 00:41:46.775 I am still thinking about how Kevin said that his job was to know what he doesn't know. 00:41:46.864 --> 00:41:52.114 And I think that's going to stick with me for a long time and it's just something that we all need a little more of in our lives. 00:41:52.625 --> 00:41:57.545 If by the way, you're going to be at NCTM, I'm going to be there in the halls. 00:41:57.545 --> 00:41:58.565 I would love to see you there. 00:41:58.835 --> 00:42:02.795 And whether you come to my presentation or not, I would just love to meet you and see you. 00:42:02.824 --> 00:42:05.195 So if you're going to be there, reach out, let me know. 00:42:05.255 --> 00:42:08.195 Let's meet up, high five, hug, grab a coffee, whatever. 00:42:09.585 --> 00:42:15.398 If something in this episode inspired you follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram and TikTok. 00:42:15.818 --> 00:42:23.568 Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. 00:42:23.889 --> 00:42:25.929 Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. 00:42:25.934 --> 00:42:37.184 And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. 00:42:37.423 --> 00:42:39.914 Those things actually make such a big difference for us. 00:42:40.333 --> 00:42:44.652 I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. 00:42:44.893 --> 00:42:47.063 Until next time, peace, love, and pi. 00:42:52.195 --> 00:42:53.782 That was so fun! 00:42:53.782 --> 00:42:58.764 That was a lot of fun, but I will point out, I don't think you swore once this entire time. 00:42:59.297 --> 00:43:00.487 I was a little disappointed. 00:43:00.487 --> 00:43:02.456 I was waiting for it to happen. 00:43:03.601 --> 00:43:04.862 Why the fuck didn't I swear? 00:43:05.657 --> 00:43:06.077 you know what? 00:43:06.097 --> 00:43:07.126 I'm going to swear in the intro. 00:43:07.157 --> 00:43:07.896 Oh good! 00:43:07.896 --> 00:43:09.556 In the intro and the outro. 00:43:09.996 --> 00:43:15.536 I'm going to make sure I'll make sure there's some profanity in this podcast because so we can mark it as explicit. 00:43:15.536 --> 00:43:17.056 Because don't want to break that pattern. 00:43:17.246 --> 00:43:19.856 And there is, don't worry, there's a ton of swearing in my book. 00:43:19.876 --> 00:43:26.885 It's all like bleeped out, but there are, there are lots of swear words with little like, but thank you so much for making me feel so seen as a human. 00:43:26.885 --> 00:43:28.465 Like, I really appreciate that. 00:43:28.465 --> 00:43:30.865 And the fact that you noticed that, that is active listening, Kevin.