Host Reid Hoffman met Sheryl in a conference room at One Facebook Way to discuss a vexing subject: How does she lead an organization that doubles or triples in size each year? She also reveals previously unaired insights from her new book, Option B, and how her first book, Lean In, morphed into a grassroots movement.

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00:00:00Hey listeners it's read If you love masters of scale maybe you want to join the team Wait what The content incubator that creates the show is hiring a social media genius to help us amplify So if you want to work with creative diverse team in new york and
00:00:16would enjoy telling me what to tweet go to wait what dot com slash jobs and if you know someone else who'd be perfect pass it along or email us They're linked in profile at hello at masters of scale dot com I'm reid hoffman cofounder of linked in investment
00:00:43partner greylock and your host right now we're between seasons on masters of scale and in the weeks ahead will bring you several exclusive extended interviews from season one last february i met cheryl sandberg at a conference room on one facebook way to discuss a vexing subject how do
00:01:02you lead an organization that doubles or triples in size each year cheryl is the unrivaled expert on this subject cheryl story is featured in the masters of scale episode lied lied again a ruler coaster ride of an episode where we unpacked my theory that to lead an organization
00:01:19of scale you have to be a skilled at breaking plans as you aren't making them If you haven't heard that episode yet i'd strongly recommend you go back and listen to it first in the extended interview that follows you'll hear a few things that you've heard before and
00:01:34a lot you haven't including our masters of scale lightning round we hope you enjoy this uncut interview will be back with season two episodes in our signature format starting in late october We'll start our show in a moment but first a word from our sponsor a t and
00:01:50t business there are companies that we work with today that ship goods from one side of the country to the other side and they have no idea where their goods are if it's going to be on time so you don't really know where your stuff is that's mike
00:02:06triano the vice president of a tea and tease internet of things team and he has a simple question for anyone who's shipping things from point a to point b do you know where your packages there's the old fashioned way of answering that question We actually do have a
00:02:21customer who is in the fine arts industry and they were shipping fine artwork from tokyo to new york a couple years ago and what the owner of the company told us was that she would have an employee flight to tokyo get on the jet with that painting and
00:02:35accompany the painting all the way down to over the new york city And i said to her okay great but in your model you have a person on the plane All you would know is that when you got to new york there was an issue but you really
00:02:47don't know where that issue happened and who to hold liable for that damaged asset So how can the internet of things solve all of those mysteries Mike will answer that question later in the show So i'm here at one facebook way with my dear friend cheryl sandberg it
00:03:07is always a delight to see you were so happy to have you here and i think you get a certain amount of credit for me being here in the first place a little touch point think a little bit of credit yes reed has been a nice mentor and
00:03:21career adviser to me i don't i don't make a move without read so that is far too kind but i'm blushing you can't see it on the audio so let's start with your how your family got to the u s your is it great great grandmother my great
00:03:37great grandmother her name is hana besa and she came over she was from vilnius lithuania and she came over on a boat they traveled steerage and a few years ago when our mutual friendship meth became a citizen i was the speaker at the naturalization ceremony and i found
00:03:54her journals preparing for this and read from it and it was incredible she talked about how they laugh if her children were clean and healthy and the boat rocked everyone got sick and kind of threw up on the passengers it was enough water there wasn't enough food they
00:04:11begged food from the higher class passengers and i got off the boat and her children were sick and they were covered with filth and vermin and i thought about at the time and i still think about today the sacrifices she made to get me here and you know
00:04:24we're jewish family in lithuania so had she not done that my family almost certainly would have died in the holocaust and all around the world so many people make great sacrifices and take great risks to get to freedom and get two more opportunity and i owe that woman
00:04:44a great deal and so you get to harvard you're a student did you know that you wanted to become a significant leader it was that a natural kind of impulse for you you know the main thing i was raised with his don't go into business and it's good
00:05:02to be a doctor and so you were right my father's a doctor i have two siblings they're both doctors one of the married a doctor being a doctor was good it was giving back working in non profits or the government was considered very good business was a little
00:05:18suspect because you know really people did goodbye in medicine or a non profits or in the government and so i never thought i'd work in a company at all i started my career working at the world bank i worked on leprosy in india aids in india blindness in
00:05:33india and so it wasn't until later that i found my way into the private sector but if you had asked me today i graduated college if i would ever work in the private sector i would have thought you were insulting me so how did you end up connecting
00:05:46with google what was the path that led you there so after college i worked at the world bank for two years i went back teo isn't a school and i went back to business school very much you know i joined the nonprofit club i was going to bring
00:05:56business schools to non profits or the government that's why i went i joined the kinsey for a year and then i went into the government i went into the clinton administration at the treasury department and i was there from nineteen ninety six to two thousand and those were
00:06:13the years of the tech boom and what i saw was that these technology companies that felt very far away and kind of weirdly informal you know people came into treasury all the time and most people wore suits but not eric schmidt you know he he looked he felt
00:06:28over jerry yang would come in right there was with yahoo days they looked they felt different and it really felt like they had this energy and passion around changing the world and when i met with tech leaders which i was lucky enough to dio young in my career
00:06:41because i was a treasury they just had so much energy and passion for what they were doing to change the world and i remember this one day i was with larry summers he was the secretary i was his chief of staff and we had a lunch in new
00:06:55york and it was at the rainbow room and it was you know all the banker's and everyone was wearing suits it was very formal and people would give their speeches and sit down and someone else would react very formally and then we flew across the country and eric
00:07:08schmidt picked us up in his car wearing jeans and took us to a local pizza place with jerry yang and we sat there and they were talking and eating everyone's eating off each other's plates and the stark contrast between those two meals the formality and the what felt
00:07:26very traditional about the world i was living men and the informality and the big ideas that were discussed at that dinner off what seemed like the new world convince me that for profit companies actually were mission based and could do a lot of good and that's how i
00:07:41got to google and so was it also through that connection with eric that you kind of said okay is this the combination joint or what was the thing that led you to google specifically Well it took me time to find a job definitely a new eric and he
00:07:53had me interview at google on dh helped me find a role there but i talked to lots of other companies there were some people who i remember one she looked at me and she said i would never hire anyone like yes and i said well why did you
00:08:06take the meeting and she said well you know a friend of mine asked me to and so i said well i don't want to waste your time you know what i and i asked her like two generic questions and into the meeting i was proud of myself or
00:08:17not you know keeping it together but then other people were really interested in someone with a government background and i had an operational type of government background but it wasn't a great time to get jobs in silicon valley you know in two thousand things had ah that bubble
00:08:31quote unquote had burst and things were going down and so took me five months and i five months of like not thinking i was getting a job must have been a little stressful it was actually and so what you got to google what was the state of affairs
00:08:45how did the company look how did it look like it was built to scale was it what did you learn that was oh my gosh that's awesome and oh my gosh there's a huge crater here it was in whatever was in one building again ever more genes everyone
00:09:00most of almost everyone were still computer scientists and coders i remember my first week eric was busy and they were working on a big reorg for the engineering department and like the reorg reorg we're gonna figure out the reward was so at the end of the week or
00:09:16maybe the second week i figured out what the reward was the reorg was every single engineer would report directly to wayne rosen who was the vp of engineering so about two hundred engineers that was the reorg they're going all report directly to him i have several thoughts on
00:09:28this one is why does that take weeks to plan you just you know you don't draw charts joking joking about that no but it was a crazy thing saying two hundred ish people should support directly to one person was saying we don't want management and it was exactly
00:09:43what they were saying and so it was unorthodox and cool and had the property that we really trusted our employees to do the right thing i learned it was different from the treasury department right away right away probably minute three minute three and so one of the things
00:09:58that you know we and silicon valley know that you had a significant handan was growing major parts of the google infrastructure There was the adwords initiative in terms of building out operations there was had a google go international and that you actually played a key role you know
00:10:14not the only world but a key role in a bunch of these initiatives What were some of the things that you encountered as part of the here The lessons that i took away from helping get google scale i mean i learned so much and i did so much
00:10:30wrong on the way to skilling and the fundamental lessons i learned where that when you're scaling quickly you need to think ahead so i started off as a business unit general manager google but there were no business units to manage so pretty much ever acknowledged there was never
00:10:44going to be a business you know it's hard to find a job so i went to work for omid kordestani i really wanted to work for him and i was going to run the online adwords business people were not big believers in that business around the world people
00:10:56thought no one would ever buy ads online you would have to talk to a sales person but oh meat and i and i think google in general we're big believers that you could build technology to help people do things efficiently my team was four people and they were
00:11:08very worried we were going to grow so my first day i said don't worry we're gonna hire were all can interview everyone well two weeks later the team was twelve people it was completely unreasonable tohave a person interview with twelve people plus you only had twelve people to
00:11:23do any work so if everyone interviewed everyone that didn't work at all so this promise i had made to make them feel good about scaling i took away in a week i'll give you another silly example that i don't think his silly birthdays we celebrated everyone's birthday that
00:11:35day then it became that week eventually we had a huge sheet cake with quarterly birthdays my team was four thousand when i left and everyone's names on it now it sounds like that wouldn't matter but it did because if you started out and we celebrated everyone's birthday and
00:11:51we took that away that was a problem now i'm not saying be mean and don't celebrate birthdays i'm saying figure out what your systems are going to look like later and to it now when our team was growing i interviewed everyone who joined global really and when we
00:12:06were about a hundred people i noticed that the queue for my interview was out kind of holding up our hiring process so i said in a meeting with my direct reports you know i think maybe i should stop interviewing fully expecting that they would jump right in and
00:12:18say absolutely not you're a great interviewer we need your personal recommendation on anyone on your team you know what they did they applauded and i thought to myself i've become a bottleneck and you didn't tell me and that's on me i was there boss i was their manager
00:12:34if they didn't tell me that was on me and i realized i have to make it safe for y'all to speak up when i'm messing up no one wanted me to interview every candidate i'm not that important i thought my interview is that important no one else did
00:12:48and now the lightning round rapid fire questions we ask every guest on masters of scale all right something that's in your pocket beside your phone lip balm always like bliss tax or lip balm artificial intelligence fills you with hope or dread pick one hope hope your favorite place
00:13:06to think big the treadmill what job would you take if you were out of work tomorrow I like my job i don't want to be out of work that's a good answer one object from your childhood that you could never throw away my journals even though they don't
00:13:21have much in them because i would start them and stop them but i have a few pages from each year the one thing you wish your phone could do make me on time always favorite app other than facebook or whatsapp instagram facebook whatsapp i love headspace best movie
00:13:39ever the shawshank redemption messy desk or clean desk clean open officer closed off no office is there a single poem or passage from literature that you've memorized i khun dio more than you might think of proof rock is there anything you wanna tio let us go now you
00:13:57and i let us go then you and i when the evening is spread out against the sky like a patient either rised upon a table let us go through certain half deserted streets the muttering retreats of quiet nights in one night cheap hotels and sawed us and saed
00:14:12us rest Lucy I'm getting older still beautiful my favorite single greatest achievement my kids helping my kids get through the loss of their father I don't think it's my achievement i think it's theirs but i just look at them with such wonder They're so strong and they're so
00:14:30amazing you know them so One thing you have to have in your fridge at all times milk i drink a lot of coffee and i really like milk with it lots of milk like this much coffee that much milk your phone's ringing tone if it's anything other than
00:14:44the standard iphone remember it's the standard one i have the you're my best friend song from queen for my group of high school girlfriends they don't call me that much so we've a whatsapp group is what we basically do so it's mainly the boring one one meeting you
00:15:00look forward to each month i look forward to my time with mark each week actually sets me on the right path make sure we're aligned your smartest timesaving hack i try to answer emails immediately i would rather give a short quick incomplete answer then wait and do it
00:15:17better done is better than perfect because people underestimate how opening up her e mails again is so time consuming because you read it again the most creative measure of success you've ever set for a team i think for our ads teams really helping do the creative that would
00:15:34help work and we wound up forming the facebook creative shops and now we have you know creative people here working with our advertisers how to make mobile ad sing and that concludes our lightning round now back to the interview so let's talk about two different parts of that
00:15:48initial scaling journey and then we'll also go to facebook which will be of course new lessons first is hiring so you quickly move from okay we're all gonna interview everyone what did you do to instrument a fast hiring practice because you had to grow very fast when i
00:16:05was interviewing for job i told you had some bad experiences i had a really nice experience with meg whitman i was interviewing at ebay and i having been to the other people telling it an experience when i got to see her i looked at her and i just
00:16:15said i don't have any relevant experience just i'm gonna acknowledge that but i'd still love to come you know work with you and she said no one has any experience because no one's ever done this before i want to hire people with great skills and i think hopefully
00:16:29you have great skills i really took that lesson to heart i did not go look for people with online ad sales experience and that's a good thing because there was no one with online ad sales experience i could have insisted we on ly have sales experience we only
00:16:44have online experience but i actually decided what mattered was skills i was gonna go hire the best and the brightest and the most you know people who are going to bring their passion and dedication and work hard an actual experience in the field of related fields didn't matter
00:16:59at all that opens up a lot of hiring because then you can just look for skills the second thing is it was a hard time to get jobs and we needed to hire really quickly so we started that tempt a higher program we just hired people is tempts
00:17:12and a lot of them were you know local stanford grads local college grads people from other companies who had either been laid off or wanted to take a chance on google the hiring process for temps was fast and then we would evaluate them over the course of the
00:17:24first month two months and then we would convert the most successful of them to full time that was a great pipeline it didn't last forever when the economy turned around we no longer could do that but it was a great way to scale in those very early days
00:17:38when we needed a lot of work done very quickly we weren't sure how sustainable the business was and we wanted to give people a shot it also got us to hire people we probably would have otherwise not hired right people who didn't necessarily interview well people who didn't
00:17:50necessarily have the right background that google was always looking for that they came in and take great work and we saw their work and we were able to convert them that was great and once you moved out of a difficult hiring mechanism was there anything in particular that
00:18:03you kind of uses your enduring lesson for leaders around one howto higher its scale i really think it comes down to skills higher skills and higher energy and hire people who solve problems you know the lesson everyone talks about what i really mean is you really do want
00:18:21to hire people who are better than you are and who are different than you are says where we talk about diversity right and i don't just mean racial national age gender all of that diversity is super important we need to hire that i mean in addition to that
00:18:37cognitive diversity which you get from all those backgrounds but also just personality diversity you know if you are a white male like stick code and scifi movies probably don't want your whole team to be that you know i think about david fisher david fisher and i have worked
00:18:51together at treasury at google and facebook personality types were just very different i'm much more up and down i will get nervous something's not moving fast enough i will be exuberant and i will be down not david david is absolutely calm and over decades of working together that
00:19:10balance has really been important because sometimes all look at david and say this is an emergency and hope they know it's not cheryl calm down and sometimes you know david look at me and i'll say david you're not moving fast enough and he'll say you're right i think
00:19:24mark and i have that too We are very different right We are separated by you know obviously gender fifteen years He's my boss he's fifteen years younger completely different personalities completely different working styles and i think that's served facebook well so i really think we need to emphasize
00:19:41for people all kinds of diversity including personality type industry Background will come back to that story after a word from our sponsor a t and t business We're back with mike triano he's one of eight and he's leading experts on the internet of things he was telling us
00:20:01about a client who ships fine art from tokyo to new york and actually sends an employee to fly along with the package until mike offered a smarter solution We gave them on asset tracking solution that they actually put inside the crate of the painting Now based on that
00:20:16we know the location of the painting we know based on shock whether out someone damaged or tilted the package and so here's the thing If that painting were dropped on the tarmac we would know immediately based on the shock sensors where something were actually damaged Now with these
00:20:34asset tracking solutions you actually don't even need to send a human being on that flight anymore Just put the ass a tracker in the painting and we'll give you an alert if something goes wrong Shocked to hear about shock sensors that's on ly the beginning mike will share
00:20:47a few more ways to see and hear your supply chain later in the show In the meantime you can visit at dot com slash coyote tto learn more that's a tt dot com slash coyote So that's that's a natural bridge to taking the job at facebook so you
00:21:10you meet this brilliant still very young man and yet you decide to jump from this massive transformational company with the mission that you have helped build to face but what was that process like i met mark and i was just inspired i had been using facebook i saw
00:21:30its potential to make us who we were put ourselves online it's hard to remember but you know this is where they had that cartoon you know with the dog the computer saying on the internet no one knows you're a dog the whole idea behind all the stuff we
00:21:43did online was anonymous and facebook putting yourself and your picture and your real friends and you're real connection in your real birthday online was such a big leap but it was one that really resonated for me because it enabled us to have personal connections it was already enabling
00:21:57me to keep up with some of my friends i had lost touch with or i wasn't as closely in touch with as i wanted to be and so i believed in the mission and then i just really believe and mark you know he had energy and passion and
00:22:11big vision he said everything's going to be social sounds obvious now nothing was social then so i think he really had a very compelling vision and so you had multiple conversations of mark before you decided to join facebook which conversation was the conversation that made you think yes
00:22:30this is the mission that i next want to help build well i love the mission from the very first conversation and to say i had multiple conversations with mark is kind of the understatement i mean mark you know what a girlfriend priscilla but he had no kids he
00:22:43was a late night die he didn't come into the office particularly early so he would come over for dinner like eight and i would literally have to kick him out like eleven or twelve and we had dinners once or twice a week for months i think way earlier
00:22:56than he decided he wanted to work with me i decided i wanted to work with him and that was the only way i was gonna have you know six hours a week time i didn't have of analyst conversation but i think he was right because by the time
00:23:10we work together we had really talked about kind of who we were what we believed in what we thought the potential wass ah facebook to scale how we would scale i had shared some of the experiences some of the things i think i've gotten wrong he had been
00:23:23really open about the mistakes he thought facebook had made up to that point and i think we started months later in a really good place in working together because we had been talking for so long we also got the world's best advice from my husband dave mark and
00:23:39i didn't agree on a lot of substantive things at that point and dave tommy's like don't work any of those out you never will he said what you want from mark is process agreement on how you will work things out because even if you work all the questions
00:23:51you have that now they're going to change so we agreed we would sit together we agreed we would always do the first meeting of the week on monday and the last meeting of the week on friday and we would always give i asked him for feedback he made
00:24:04it mutual we would always give each other feedback every week and it will be nine years next month and we sit together we have the first meeting every monday and friday and we always give each other feedback so what is obviously that was the exact right way to
00:24:20start building a very close collaborative relationship for going into scale if you were able to phone your younger self is there any advice you give yourself it's different i think i would tell my younger self not to be a cz nervous because it was all gonna work out
00:24:34You know joining facebook was hard mark was unbelievably supportive right from the beginning but it was a company very much influx in a company that mark and i were really gonna have to take through some real steps to get to where we were and we've gone through some
00:24:48hard times right We've gone through a transition to mobile we've gone through challenges in our business i think in the early days i had lots of nights where i worried that things wouldn't work out and you know i think a lot of people do that and i guess
00:25:02i would look back and say it's going to be okay and i try to tell myself that now when i get you know more worried about things one of the i hold up to other entrepreneurs is economical example of how a company can make a bold strategic move
00:25:17was facebook's moved from desktop to mobile What was the experience like for you What were the lessons of kind of the facebook management team and you and okay this is how he made decision is what's hard is how we did it well that transition was really hard and
00:25:34mark was an incredible leader through it what happened was that we were built as a desktop product because mobile wasn't a thing and mark and always said later that had we been started just a few years later we would have started as mobile app but we started the
00:25:47desktop app that meant we did desktop screenshots then that we had those were the people who knew how to code our products were designed for the desktop and we realized the mobile transition was happening it was happening way faster than we thought and it kept outstripping our predictions
00:26:01and to mark this company all hands which he still does when he wants to reset or you know make sure we're on the right path and he puts a lot of effort in time into them and you start it with the cow company all hands and said we're
00:26:10going to be a mobile first company and he did it incredibly well but then you know what happened the next day nothing people still came in with their desk cop screenshots because that's what they knew how to build and so a couple of meetings in mark just said
00:26:22you know what no more meetings unless your mobile screen shots first so kind of everyone went home and marked and have so many product reviews for a little about but when they came back they had mobile first and just by making that shift he made the shift in
00:26:37the company and we really had to force it and the company really got on board but it meant retraining a lot of engineers it meant people thinking about mobile force think aboutthe shift in product development from ten desktop screen shots with one mobile page at the end too
00:26:52mobile and okay we'll figure out what works on desktop totally different thing we also were lucky and that we were able to do it because we're a company mark's control enables us to have a long term view we were newly public company we quote i don't know if
00:27:07missed because we don't put out expectations but we certainly disappointed a lot of people in our near term revenue that's because we only had so many engineers and if we wanted to make money in the near term that quarter we should put it on desktop ads and we
00:27:20did not we put all of our effort into newsfeed ads which ran on mobile and for those initial quarters we were giving up a lot of current revenue for the promise of future revenue and we were able to do it mark and i sat every one day and
00:27:35he looked at me and he said we're going to do this and i looked at him i said well you really can't be fired and you're the only person who can fire me if you're in i'm in and it was a joke we had but it's an important
00:27:45joke i do think that the corporate structure of companies we need to give companies time to make long run bats that doesn't mean there aren't times when shareholder activism is very important there are that doesn't mean there aren't times when management is making the wrong decisions and you
00:28:00need that external pressure you d'oh but i do think that we have too many companies making too many short term decisions because that's the incentive structure we've set up i don't have a perfect fix for it but i think we are a good example of what happens when
00:28:12you're able to invest over the long run and you have very strong leadership and we're so lucky to have that and mark totally agree so in the shift to mobile one of the key things was let's make all of the product reviews mobile first there was also a
00:28:27okay we're going to put the engineers for the ad system on mobile versus desktop and that's gonna have a short term revenue impact with a long term which is well paying off but a long term strategy with uncertainty in it how did that affect your management how did
00:28:42that affect what you were doing with your leadership team and how you are operating as an executor Well the sales team which i lead we had to sell mobile ads even though we don't quite have the full mobile ad product we don't quite have the full targeting measurement
00:28:58we needed we needed to build a vision and explain to people you know people are very skeptical no one will ever convert on mobile no one sees those ads we went to nielsen and we did a study with them in partnership with them where we had them measure
00:29:10whether people were seeing and remembering the ads very important to us because we had to figure out if it was really going to work and we had tto cell into the future so one of the things that i come to you for advice on as often as i
00:29:24can sit down with you on these is how do you scale leadership and specifically when you're in these kind of rocket ships where there's a lot of mayhem because you have to hire you have a lot of work to dio you have a lot of changing requirements you're
00:29:38going global and typically the oh you trained the person on the job before you give him a job but that just doesn't work you have to throw all that out the window in these fast moving circumstances what of your training and enabling of leaders both within google and
00:29:52facebook would have been the key lessons there so i've thought a lot about this you've thought a lot about this and written so eloquently and i've learned so much from you this thing about leadership is you need people to follow you enthusiastically people will do what they're supposed
00:30:06to do if they work for you not necessarily in tech companies not particularly based over time certainly but that's not what you want you want to have an aligned mission rather than tell people to march four steps you want to tell people we're heading there get there as
00:30:18quickly as you can and some of them are going to run and some of them are going to you know i don't know hockey stick er some fancy thing i don't know what it is right they're going to get their different ways but they're each going to get
00:30:28their their own way the fastest in the most efficient so setting out that vision here's where we're heading and making sure everyone really believes is really important you have to repeat your mission and your purpose and the values you care about over and over and over and sometimes
00:30:44you like doesn't ever know this it doesn't matter starting out your meetings that this is the facebook mission this's thie instagram mission this's why what's up exists is so powerful even if everyone knows it by heart because it reminds you where you're headed and why you're going there
00:30:58and recently i've been doing a lot of work on resilience have an upcoming book on the topic and not just personal resilience but company resilience and organizational resilience and what the data shows is that the resilient companies not surprisingly are the ones that are more successful over the
00:31:12long run and what makes a company resilient is how it handles failure so now i'm spending a lot more time thinking about how do i make failure acceptable I think mark's always been great on this how do we debrief very thoroughly when we get things wrong How do
00:31:28we make sure people feel that they can surface not just the great things they do but the mistakes so that everyone can learn from it And i think that's a very important part of leadership we should probably dig into that a little bit more because this is one
00:31:40of the classic things that silicon valley tend to do a little bit better than most other industries because the belief that if you fail fast you khun succeed in the long term that a learning culture is key and failure is part of learning what are some of the
00:31:55lessons that you either in part to your leaders or how you operationalize this why it's okay to take a risk this wides okay to fail and this is how you still make progress with well i think marks than this incredibly well in our engineering team has done and
00:32:10this really well sweeper kind of very famous story of facebook about ah young summer intern named ben who wanted to help figure out how we could not take the site down and to understand how we recover from bugs triggered so he triggered bug and took the site down
00:32:25for like thirty minutes and you know in our industry that is crazy and he got hired full time and they started calling what he did ben testing so now we put things in place so that you wouldn't take the site down but it was the celebration of that
00:32:42was a good idea not well executed but we still want to do those tests i think being pretty open about where we make mistakes mark does it i do it i make mistakes All the time really being open to feedback you know thanking people for the feedback caroline
00:32:59iverson who runs our global sales team she shares her performance reviews in a facebook group with twenty four hundred people she shares them here's i'm working on here's what you've told me i need to do better that's showing that we really value feedback and we don't have to
00:33:13pretend to be perfect is there any particular mistake that you've made that you learn that you're comfortable sharing Oh my god so many so many i think you know one mistake that i've made that i make again is really remembering that whatever you talk about or whatever you
00:33:34measure people are going to react so i remember i don't love power point presentations and meetings for weeks i want them to be more discussions so i kept saying please don't bring power point please start me a power point in facebook for years but every kept bringing power
00:33:49point so one day probably more frustrated than i needed to be I just had no more power point any my meetings so that a few months later i was getting ready to get on stage the global sales conference So all of our global people from around the world
00:34:01and i looked at someone who was standing there my friend kirsten who was an hr at the time and i said well what are the things they're gonna ask me about and she said well everyone wants to talk about the power point thing i said what power point
00:34:12thing she said you know the no power point saying it's very hard to do client meetings that power point and i said what no power point being for clients and i realized that my instruction no power point got translated through this large organisation is cheryl says no power
00:34:25point in client meetings so i got on the stage and i said one i'm sorry i didn't mean that two it is on me that if you all thought that and that was a stupid idea you need to speak up and tell me of course you could have
00:34:37power point with clients clients love power points i don't and it was just a really good lesson that i needed to be super careful that things didn't get taken too far but also that i needed to make sure people could speak up were there any particular lessons that
00:34:54you had in scaling facebook about going global because there's all these different culture is part of the social web is that you know social is both same and different when you get to different countries in different languages and different cultures were there any particular places where that global
00:35:10scale added to your kind of howto lead effectively how to scale companies effectively it's interesting is from a product perspective facebook is actually intrinsically implicitly global if you look at a lot of other companies even online companies you know they produce content they need to translate that content
00:35:29and make it culturally relevant but because our content is your news feed you know if you're in korea most your friends or korean they're posting in korean they're posting culturally sensitive things because they're your friends and so a lot of the localization of other companies needed to do
00:35:44we never needed to do and one of that i think the reasons were at one point billion and growing so quickly we just had a great quarter for growth is because we're not local to the country we are personal to you and in that personal to you comes
00:35:58local so that was really good that said we've needed different sales approaches we've needed very strong local leaders and we certainly face different and challenging policy environments around the world and how did you as a leader navigate that structure that organization to make sure the organization was you
00:36:14know appropriately sympathetic to different sales environment a different regulatory environment and to create the interface between a singular global platform and also the needs of a local country Well we go market by marketing country by country again the content itself is localized by the person but there are
00:36:32certainly you know rules and regulations we follow in each country and we are in those markets talking to people and learning from people I mean i think one of the things we try to do really well you know i'm sure we can do better but we really work
00:36:46at it is feedback feedback from our users feedback from our clients feedback from our partners and as you know when you build that feedback into the product it's the best feedback so one of the best things that makes our ads better is the pull down we have which
00:37:02says i don't like sad and here's why so we can learn what people's preferences are and if you really don't want to see ads about golfing or i don't really want to see ads about menopause which did happen to be recently i am able to not see those
00:37:15let's talk a little bit about culture one of the things that i know you know this has deeply is anyone in the world to create a good scaling environment you have to deliberately craft your culture some of that comes from how you lied like accepting genuine feedback being
00:37:30very open open a failure what are the other things you have done and would recommend others in terms of creating a deliberate vibrant culture we think a lot about this and culture is one of those very big vague words that you can put anything you want on it
00:37:45so two people could say this is destroying our culture and you mean we're moving too slow and i mean we're moving too fast you know this is destroying our culture and you mean it's too hot and i mean it's too cold and so i think what we need
00:37:55to do is talk about what culture is you know we know what ours we want ours to be what our values we want them to be bold move fast build social value you know have impact be open like those air the defined values on dh we want to
00:38:10make sure that people are acting in adherents with those values my favorite we've all these posters around the wall you've seen them the red posters my favorite was done by i think a young woman in recruiting where it just said nothing at facebook is someone else's problem i
00:38:24love that because what that is is that we are all here to help each other it's not your problem my problem it's ours yeah and one of the things actually i love about which i think a number of companies do facebook is one that i learned from we
00:38:37do this like then is by having the posters it's when we're talking we can point at the wall and we can say look this is how we operate right and it just it's the reminder for the horizontal discussion not a vertical transmission but are horizontal about how we
00:38:52can all hold each other accountable to these values in these purposes i really agree that anything where you can translate the culture to the teams so we talk a lot of that ruthlessly prioritizing that's the most important thing any company any industry any nonprofit we only have so
00:39:07many resources i think when people talk about prioritizing what they start to mean is i'm not going to do bad ideas that's the easy privatization the hard part is ation is thes three things are really great ideas but we can only do two which ones so we've had
00:39:20here for a long time non goals see if your goals and even on goal on an angle is the next thing that you would dukes it's a really good idea that sonangol so for a long time our non golfer adds was an ad network we now have one
00:39:33it was a good idea but we had to build our own ad systems and targeting and measurement systems first before we got to the network that had that horizontal property you're talking about because you would see someone come up with an idea and someone else say that's a
00:39:45great idea and then the person would say but it's not as good of an idea as an ad network and that's an on call so it's set off floor for what we were going to invest in that everyone could understand and it made it theirs so let's move
00:39:57to lean in all knowledgeable people know which unfortunately is only a subset of people in the world but know that diversity makes team stronger right share with folks a little bit about why it is you decided to do lean in and then what is the key takeaway i
00:40:14decided to do a linen because i looked around me and women were not achieving leadership roles you know there was progress for decades and there's been none really none for twelve years now that is because we do not embrace female leadership we just don't we call little girls
00:40:31bossy we do not call little boys bossy we tell those same women there too aggressive in the workplace we rarely tell men even though we know with gender blind studies that men are in fact on average more aggressive in the workplace and in other ways and so lean
00:40:44in was about help and still is about helping women be comfortable with ambition and set the goals they want for themselves rather than let themselves or society hold them back the best thing that happened with lean in and it had you know it's not the book at all
00:40:59and it's not me it's this amazing team i have led by rachel thomas at my foundation are the lean in circles so when we launched the book we launched lean and dot org's nonprofit and we help women join or for my men to lean in circles and our
00:41:13goal was a thousand there are almost thirty two thousand circles in one hundred and seventy countries we grow by more than eighty a week I was in paris on one three weeks ago and i met with lena in france i met with the leaders there are five hundred
00:41:26women in lean in paris in one chapter and what we know from the data work we do with them but also from talking women is that it more than eighty percent of women who joined a circle will take on a new challenge because they are encouraged by their
00:41:40circle will do something positive and proactive for their life and so women helping other women all of us embracing female ambition you know he's ambitious that is a positive ready she's ambitious classically classic net negative right like we need to change that because every boy should be ambitious
00:41:59and every girl should be ambitious ah and what your advice teo men as to how to help with the lean in mission well you've been a great lean in champion and i'm super grateful for that and so have many men the way to help is to wreck guys
00:42:12that there are all of these biases and push against them and push against them aggressively so lots of studies show this of a man and woman both say something in a meeting the man often gets credit if you are a man in that meeting and you don't have
00:42:25to be the boss you could be a colleague and that happens you could say that's a great idea you know liz liz that was your idea tell us about it you don't even have to say you stole her idea just give the girl give the woman credit give
00:42:36the girl credit but if it's in a classroom you can make sure you're aggressively hiring you can make sure you're aggressively promoting you should make sure you have unconscious bias training we have managing by his training we've made public at facebook and you can lead by example in
00:42:50supporting women to be ambitious don't have private conversations where a woman's pregnant and you say well we're not gonna offer her that job she's pregnant ask her she might decide she doesn't want to travel more but she might decide she wants to do it and so often we
00:43:04take opportunities away from women because we assume we know what they want rather than giving them the full opportunities they deserve another way we take opportunities away from women is that men are afraid to mentor women huge percentage of men are literally afraid to be seen one on
00:43:20one alone with a woman well where do you think the mentoring happens there's a story i have in the book partner goldman sachs he had daughters and he realized he was totally comfortable having dinners with men but not women so he decided no dinners someone else reached out
00:43:35to me after the book and he said he read my book he realized he only traveled with the young men in his office from now on he was taking women too either way is fine you may decide all the travel all the dinners no travel no dinners but
00:43:46whatever you decide make it explicit and make it equal one of things i loved about how you scaled lean in was that you actually approached it has a scale mission it wasn't just a best selling book wasn't just a i said i'd look here's some ideas you guys
00:44:02should do them but how do we drive this thing the scale what were some of the lessons from scaling lean into a global movement well what we tried to do was not just published the book you know a lot of women would say okay i want to lean
00:44:14in how really the nonprofit tries to address the house if you go to our website it's lena dot or what you'll see is tons of educational videos how do you negotiate how do you oh no room really command a room how do you communicate how do you lead
00:44:27teams we tried to take the kind of exec level education that would be available to me and you and make it available to every woman to your earlier question what i wish i knew earlier in my career there are these very amazing very expensive programs that they offer
00:44:42senior women well you need that advice earlier so we got the experts and we took all of this amazing content and we put it online for free anyone can have access and can learn and grow the second is we really doubled down on peer support there aren't enough
00:44:57senior women out there and unfortunately men don't mentor women enough we need to change that more men and women you to mentor and sponsor younger women but while we're waiting for that tow happen boy can we do a lot of good mentoring each other and these pure support
00:45:11networks which we looked at from health care to micro finance they work and they're working it's wiling and circles ground so if you give yourself a place they meet my utmost to meet once a month every month i'm going to be ambitious i'm gonna tell you what my
00:45:23goals are and we're all gonna hold each other accountable and give each other great advice turns out you can get and give a lot of great advice to your peers and we can mentor and support each other so you've just published option b what caused you to write
00:45:38this book and what's your key message option b is about resilience and you know when my husband died he was a great dear friend of yours and he loved you very much and admired you so much read it was obviously completely devastating and so i looked for answers
00:45:56and i looked for answers with my friend adam grant who's a dear friend and a psychologist in the data on resilience and also in other people stories and option b is our attempt to share what we learned and what i learned is that resilience is not something you're
00:46:11born with a fixed amount but it's a must so we built and we build it not just in ourselves we built it and our friends in our children in our communities and people cannot just recover from tragedy but they can actually grow i'm not saying you could be
00:46:25you know happier i'm not saying i'm happy without my husband i never would be but you can grow have greater meaning you can have greater appreciation and you can rediscover joy and so option b is about how do we take the lessons of resilience and apply them in
00:46:41ourselves in each other in our children You know recovering from dave staff is the hardest thing i've ever done i'm still doing it and there's no one way to grieve and no one way to recover but there are common lessons in all forms of adversity in the book
00:46:54covers not just loss but it covers job loss and incarceration and sexual assault really all different kinds of adversity people can face there are common lessons there and at the end of the day this is about the human capacity to persevere this is about the light within us
00:47:12that will not be distinguished this is about how we move on how we recover how we support ourselves and how we support each other so one of the things you have an option because this chapter on resilient organizations since part of what we're obviously talking about is how
00:47:27organizations scale how they learn how we lead them what is the key takeaway of that chapter so we all need resilience we need resilience as individuals and our organizations need resilience and the most successful organizations over the long run are the most resilient ones and the way you
00:47:44build a resilient organization is you learn from failure you don't hide it you embrace it so what does that mean You have to get real feedback for yourself for each other you have to be open to feedback you have to ask for feedback you have to build in
00:47:59a culture where when i think you need to do something better or you think i need to do something better we tell each other and tell each other directly and work it out you have to embrace organizational failure you have to sit down in debrief when things go
00:48:12wrong why did they go wrong What can we learn and walk can you do better it's organizations that hide things under the rug that don't create the resilience because they don't learn and i have a very strong personal belief and i wrote about this and lean in and
00:48:24it's a common thread through the option b that you have to bring your whole self to work I came back to work after my husband died it was not possible for me to ignore that fact we are surrounded by people who are having great experiences in their lives
00:48:38the joy of finding a partner having a child getting a new job You love the tragedy of losing a child getting divorced facing real adversity being diagnosed with cancer and it is in those personal relationships that we find meaning even at work i wrote in lean in i
00:48:57never believed that you could be a personal self some hours in a professional self another bring your whole self to work every day we bring our whole sells toe work That doesn't mean we spend all our time talking about our personal situations but it means we acknowledge it
00:49:10means we're there for each other We are flexible with what people need and then we can form the relationships that create that collective resilience Cheryl as always awesome thinking i look forward to the next time we talk Me too That was cheryl sandberg chief operating officer of facebook
00:49:29for more stories and insights about my theories for scaling listen to masters of scale on apple podcasts you can also find more episodes and full length interviews like this one at masters of scale dot com this is a weight what presentation and association with stitcher heinrich hoffmann thank
00:49:46you for listening and now a final word from our sponsor a t and t business we're back with mike triano one of ty's leading experts on the internet of things he was just sharing how the internet of things can give you a sixth sense for what's happening to
00:50:04your supply chain We're looking at not own location we're looking at temperature we're looking at the humidity we're looking at something that we call light or seal control so we know if actually someone tampered with the doors of that container and when you think about it all of
00:50:18this rich sensory information won't just change the way you alone can manage your shipments It could accelerate the rate of shipping worldwide Now you fast forward into a new model and you say well wait a minute if that container actually shows up at a port and we can
00:50:32prove to the port authorities that nobody tampered with this vessel because we have really scientific proof that doors were not breached could that actually start to speed customs inspection right in the processing of the containers in the port So that doesn't exist today but you have to put
00:50:50your mind into a future forward model to say these technologies could change processes in a very interesting way to speed commerce Ready to move full steam ahead on your shipping solutions visit at dot com slash coyote tto learn more that's a t t dot com slash i ot

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